Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighty Four

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620 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighty Four

  1. Idle Dreamer;

    To answer your question – I know that the sun is the source of the shadow.
    I know what object is in the way (My previous blaze)
    Therefore, I am looking for the tip of the shadow – 🙂 JDA

    • Thus the look quickly down and why GE can’t help (that feature is far from realistic). I like the idea JDA.

    • I’d be curious to hear the logic* you’re using to determine the time of year and time of day for your tip to be correct.

      Or maybe “summer” and “daylight” is enough to get you within an acceptable radius of the TC?

      *Or whatever you want to call it.

    • JDA,

      You like the idea of the blaze [ object ] will produce a shadow. As ID assumed, you might think “look quickly down” explains the idea, something not seen on GE { although, depending on the size of said blaze [object], seeing its shadow good be seen from GE, I can see shadows from down trees, for example ]. These ideas I also have pondered since day one… but it just can’t stop there! right?

      With that said, I’m never sure how you work through your solve, it seems to change constantly. But, If “look quickly down” could indicated the idea of a shadow… my questions are… what else in the poem indicates an observation vs. a movement by a searcher?
      And, is there anything else in the poem that give thought[s] to when this shadow is applicable? I mean, is there a month, day, time of day, deciphered by the poem’s clues?.. How long should one expect to watch the shadow as it appears and moves?
      I would think, if this is a process of the challenge.. the needed information must be within the poem to answer those question and to be precise… right?
      Basically, I’m asking have you solved those problems -?- by how the poem – relates to those problems?

      One last question, and I think all should ask themselves this question… How long does it take you to start from; the first clue, go to the hide and back. {twice} using this solution?

      [obviously, time spent at the hidey spot, for retrieval, is not calculated in]. [ps. I also don’t care how far away one parks… parking available can easily change as years progress in just about any solve]

      Just curious………

      • Hi Seeker;

        You ask some interesting questions. Your first: ” my questions are… what else in the poem indicates an observation vs. a movement by a searcher?” Stanza #2 – “Begin it where warm waters halt – And take it in the canyon down…” “And take it in” can, as you have said, can mean to take in the view – to observe.

        “Not far, but too far to walk…” my second clue telling me to observe, do not walk.

        Next question: ” my questions are… what else in the poem indicates an observation vs. a movement by a searcher?” I just answered this one to Yeti – Marvel gaze may be because of a “special Day and time.” Summer Solstice.

        Next question: “How long should one expect to watch the shadow as it appears and moves?” Answer – “Quickly down” indicated look only a very short period of time. At this time of year, a shadow shortens (west to east) at about 10′ per hour, so fairly rapidly. “Look quickly down” and see where the shadow is at the time of the Summer Solstice. If one is not able to be at his/her spot at the time of the Summer Solstice, the shadow – west to east will be essentially the same for some period of time. North to south it will move very little – only a matter of inches over a week or two. Close enough to see what I think one needs to see.

        Your last question: “How long does it take you to start from; the first clue, go to the hide and back. {twice} using this solution?” I will be coy on this one, and say “Less than a few.” (You said not to count parking to site, but that is my longest hike, and it is short.) It takes a “little” bit of time to get from my parking spot to my WWWsH location. Once there, it is almost all a VISUAL journey, NOT a physical one. So, getting from my parking spot to WWWsH – visually go through the poem – “In my mind” – Finding Indulgence – hike back to the car – twice, should not take very long at all.

        Thanks for the questions – JDA

        • JDA,

          Starting from the bottom of your response I’ll shorten the question; how long does it take to go from wwh to your blaze? [ minutes, hours?] It doesn’t matter how long it takes you to get to WWsH.

          As far as your blaze and how that plays out… you say; 10′ an hour watching the shadow.

          Ok, but if you start in the morning and this unfolds in the even sunset, does that sound precise enough? That’s a whole lot of 10″ sq spots to be following a shadow over a day’s time… right?
          It also doesn’t seem obvious to fenn’s response; If you can if the blaze, the distance would be obvious. I would think a time of day would be known of, prior, for planning and observing… { however, LOL, I’d probably stay the day as well, just to make sure. IF my “planned deciphered” time didn’t pan-out as hoped }.

          You said; Marvel gaze offers a day and time.
          Your answer to Yeti seems more of a guess. We didn’t know fenn actually hid the chest in summer until the kids questions came out ‘years later’
          I would think something in the poem should relay that actual season or month, don’t you?
          While summer is June, July, August, give or take. The same for day[s] would need to be in the poem as well.. to be precisely followed, without guessing the Solstice, why not the Equinox… right? { don’t get me wrong, AFT are great for checks and balances, but we should have that info beforehand from the poem.
          As well as, at the very least, a part of a day to plan for…

          My point is; and trust me when I say , in this theory, I have gone over the poem with a fine tooth comb. IMO there can’t be guessing of a summer day just because we heard fenn’s answer to the classroom…
          Information should be within the poem to ‘directly’ answer these types of questions for this or any theory.

          You mainly use stanza 2 and 4 for most of the answers I asked… What does stanza 3 do for your solve? {don’t need specifics, just what the ideas of stanza three relay, is all i’m asking}

          • Seeker;

            Since it is a visual solve, “In my mind” it shouldn’t take very long at all, but since I only have two brain cells that fire, and one is pretty “iffy” – It takes a bit longer 🙂

            “Stay the day as well, just to make sure. IF my “planned deciphered” time didn’t pan-out as hoped }.
            Probably a good idea Seeker. I have “Other factors” to consider besides the shadow, but marking it’s path seems like a good idea.

            You say: “I would think something in the poem should relay that actual season or month, don’t you?
            While summer is June, July, August, give or take. The same for day[s] would need to be in the poem as well.. to be precisely followed, without guessing the Solstice, why not the Equinox… right? ”

            Now THAT will take some thinkin’….. with my poor two brain cells – that’s askin’ a lot 🙂

            Well, what stanza #3 has meant in the past in one thing, but you just gave me an idea I will need to do some thinkin on – Thanks

            “From there it’s no place for the meek…” “Place” could refer to time, “Meek” could relate to winter

            “The end is ever drawing nigh.” Could mean that the end of “winter” is getting near. The Summer Solstice is the starting of Summer, or said another way, the end of winter..

            “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” – This could relate to spring runoff.

            “Just heavy loads and water high” – again could relate to spring runoff. “Water High” could refer to the TIME that the sun is at it’s highest point – the Summer Solstice.

            Interesting ideas Seeker – Amazing how the mind can make something out of nothing, with a bit of imagination. HUMMM JDA

          • JDA – Great thoughts on the third stanza! I will answer with a brightly blazing Stellar letter: Sirius A.

            Dear Canis Major Fenn,

            Sirius-ly, do you think searchers are in D’Nile about all the clues and hints you include in your Scrapbooks and ATF comments? Specifying Summer to the middle school class was priceles$, IMO. Were you referring to the date range of the Dog Days of Summer, when swimming at Baker’S Hole was probably ‘to die’ for? And Eye•S the ‘die cast’? And didn’t Ben Franklin say something about ‘rise’ and ‘wise’?:


            “Just heavy loads and water high”

            Nile floods…high water levels from Spring runoff…heavy loads from fast water on a fly fisherman’s line. And Doug Preston saw the bronze chest was gone from Forrest’s vault, just before Forrest’s birthday on August 22, 2010.

            In a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand years, homo ‘Sapiens’ will probably look to the heavens for ‘answerS’. Like the ‘AncientS’ did.

            All IMO.

        • I’ll summarize my problems with the shadow theory:

          1. The blaze is an object (ref the “in a word, yes” ATF). I don’t consider a shadow an object, but rather cast by an object. If your blaze is casting the shadow, then:

          2. Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey

          Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help? f

          • Hi meBigGuy: I actually don’t see a conflict with either of your points. The blaze can be a real object: say, a distant spire. Such a blaze can generate a shadow on the ground, so the blaze is literally pointing the way. This would lead to uncertainty about the actual distance between the physical blaze and its shadow, but this is irrelevant: if the shadow points to the chest’s hiding location, then the distance isn’t important.

            No, my problem with the shadow idea is its dependence on a solar alignment, and this means that it depends on a specific time of day (that the poem would have to provide). The trouble is, that time isn’t fixed: it varies depending on not only the day of the year, but the actual year itself. It may also place a restriction on the possible dates of discovery if the hiding place (or next clue) is indicated by just the tip of a shadow rather than, say, a shadow line.

            I can conjure up a shadow- or anti-shadow-based solution that takes time out of the equation, and even the date, but only if a line (rather than a point) is sufficient to mark the treasure’s hiding place.

          • @zaphod73491
            We are in agreement. Your stated problem is what I am referring to in point 2. ff says If you find the blaze, the answer as to the distance will be obvious. IMO That would not be so if the blaze was an object casting a shadow and that shadow was part of the solution.

        • Just a random thought on this whole shadow commentary. I am not the math wizard I once used to be (if ever a wiz there was), but it seems plausible that one could work out the path of a fixed objects shadow on any given day of the year by simply knowing the angle of the sun each day and the height of the fixed object. I’m sure such data is readily available on the internet somewhere. By computing this, there would be no need to be BOTG on any specific day because you can estimate by knowing those two pieces of information. Make your calculations, find the path of the shadow for the exact day/date you consider to be the key one, marry it to a properly scaled map, and save yourself the expense of a BOTG experience to gather such info from the field. This method may even save a BOTG experience when the shadow’s path doesn’t cross anything that is reasonably applicable to one’s solve / theory.

          I’m not discounting the process, just trying to convey that there seems to be a process that can be done at home in a controlled manner that will yield usable data as opposed to being limited to being BOTG on a specific day only to have it be a rainy day and you can’t try again until next year when that specific day rolls around again.

          • Bowmarc,
            What information do you have for the needed calculation?

            If an object on the ground is of certain shape… Where do those numbers come from?

            If we are to think of everything… I would think all that information would be in the poem… If not, botg is needed…right?

          • *** *** *** ***
            ” . . . it seems plausible that one could work out the path of a fixed objects shadow on any given day of the year by simply knowing the angle of the sun each day and the height of the fixed object.”
            *** *** *** ***

            And a perfectly flat field for the shadow to play over.

            One more variable needed – a place:
            The angle of the sun varies depending on your latitude, and all latitudes between Santa Fe and the Canadian border are in play.


          • Thanks Seeker and JAKe. I’m not a subscriber to this shadow method, just offering what I thought was an alternative to what some are saying would be a once-a-year opportunity to BOTG observe how something they think is a clue interacts with the sun.

            There is data about how high the sun is in the sky at noon for given days, how many hours of sunlight on any given day, etc. It would boil down to a formula that takes into account the number of degrees per hour per specific day that is a result of knowing those pieces of data.

            If your feature is a natural one, a topographic map would give you elevation(s); if it is a well-known “object”, there is probably some type of description that will give you dimensions (Wikipedia, for example); if it isn’t well known, I guess you will have to use your best judgment about how to determine dimensions.

            Since you would have the degree formula for any given day, you can put the sun wherever in the sky you wanted to, then calculate the resulting shadow*. Applying your shadow to the appropriately scaled map might yield some data, help you decide it’s a go or a no go for BOTG, etc.

            I’m not saying this would be simple by any means, but it might be worth the effort rather than banking on, and literally banking, a BOTG excursion on one specific day at one specific hour only to suffer from a flat tire, a rainy day, smog, etc.

            *Depending on what date/day/hour you want your shadow to be applied, you will have to dial in your formula to get an accurate shadow. The basic formula would have the same design for the whole year, but the components of the formula would have to be input for each specific date/day/hour to get the correct calculation. The formula would also be set to “local noon”, meaning JAKe’s addition of “a place” gets accounted for because if you are interested in somethings shadow, it is assumed you know where that something is in the first place.

            Again, I am by no means saying this would be simple, and concede that the topography of the surrounding landscape affects the resulting shadow’s dimensions as well (unless it were flat as JAKe stated), etc., but what else ya got to do over the coming of another long winter? 

            As an afterthought, even being BOTG would have it’s limitations as other things in the environment eat up the shadow cast, etc. What if a tree has grown up these past 9-10 years and now does exactly that—blocks the view of the shadow where FF needs us to look exactly at?

    • JDA,

      My thughts match yours, and two devrlopments.

      1.) The key word perhaps is ‘wise.’ How are you wise?

      Ans.: Early to bed, early to rise = healthy, wealthy & WISE.

      2.) A pointy peak in dawn’s light casts a finger shadow, long, to the west. A notch (between peaks?) at daybreak casts a down-V shaft of light. I think, ‘blaze.’

      At or near summer solstice the cast long signal, either shadow or lightbeam, reaches its farthest south-travel point, (since Sun rises north-most).
      All that gave me date(s) and time. And duration — “look quickly,” where it points down. Maybe at the top of a slope or cliff upon which the lightshow is being projected at dawn.
      As dawn rises, the lightshow moves down the slope or cliff.

      It has always been vague the days Forrest laid the treasure. At solstice in June he would be 79 before turning 80 in August. He avoided saying June 2010 because that would give it away: the solstice.

      All the time I ever slept outside or camped on the trail, I woke up for the dawn. Dawn’s light wakes me. Wakes the birds, too. Early to rise

      The light signal may be seen, visible, far across a valley. If one starts at the peak, or notch, walking straightline far across the valley may not be the way to the spot. One might have discovered the place pointed out that way.
      But later, to go to the spot knowing it’s there, one might park much closer and have only a few hundred yards hiking in ‘the back way’. The target may be not visible during the backside approach, until one gets right up on it. But knew it was there because they landmarked it when they saw it from far off.

      This ‘blaze,’ whether finger of shadow or finger of light, would be visible, say, to a pilot flying over at 10,000 ft at a summer sunrise. That is, if one happened to be a pilot.

      Last, and least: I experienced some prophetic dreams seeing such a light-blaze to a distant rock wall pointing at indulgence’s location in a close (-~ 40ft) circular walled (~ 6ft) area. It’s below eye level when approaching from the back or sides. It felt like the image was transmitted from Forrest’s memory to my seeing it.
      But then, maybe only my imagination.
      That’s the trouble with telepathic vision. I can’t tell the difference between reception or invention of subtle subtle impressions. My life has had many of these instances. If I can judge rightly, this time I had a really strong feeling it was valid from Forrest. He and I are on some kind of wavelength. Believe it or not. He’s almost a spittin’ image of my father, same gestures, same wry dry phrases, same knowledgeable face and alertness, similar birthplace and childhood cultural stsndards.

      Hope this helps somebody. (I’m in wheelchair. No chance to botg.) I’ve lurked here about 5 years.

      Stay aware of safety out in Nature. She’s full of marvels.

      Only my opinion.

      • Hi MereMark;

        Sorry for the late response – I just saw your post a few moments ago. Glad that I have at least one person who thinks my shadow idea isn’t totally crazy.

        Your pointy shadow or valley light is good. Either might work. I lean more to the shadow finger because of the shape of the object that interrupts the light, thus creating the shadow.

        Good luck with your “Visions”. There is a lot in this world that we do not understand.

        Take care and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

  2. Confirmation bias is the end for all searchers. Including me. We all pick out something different and then find it somewhere in the Rockies.

    My latest round will be tested in a few days. Tested is the wrong word. Denied. That’s it.

    Don’t get me wrong, I feel my solve is rock solid. But we all know how that turns out. Good luck to all this summer. Be safe

      • I’ve seen bled post plenty. Has he been on confirmation bias recently? Not him. I’ve only posted here about 8-10 times. I think

      • Eli’s not me, Alsentenash. I assume if I suddenly started posting under a different profile name, I’d quickly get nuked by dal and his admin.

        I do agree with Eli to be wary of confirmation bias. I’ve been guilty of leaning on it too heavily before too.

        Good luck on a safe search to you too, Eli! It won’t be too long before I’m finally getting my boots on the ground this season as well.

  3. I’ve been laying in bed for a couple of hours now thinking about my solution (I work nights and sleep during the day). I’ve been troubled by a gap in my solve and even though I was able to get things to fit, I wasn’t comfortable with how it all came together. It seems that I do some of my best thinking while laying in bed… and today was no exception. What I had wrote off before as coincidence seems more and more likely as the end of my solve!

    I kept thinking about recent comments on this blog about how the clues should get progressively easier towards the end and that wasn’t the case in my solution. So I kept reviewing things in my mind over and over and it dawned on me that I’d been missing it all along!

    Unfortunately my plans to go search in mid July have been thwarted by my boss so I will have to wait until a more suitable time later this summer.

    Now I’m too excited to go back to sleep and I have to be back at work in 4 hours.

    Thank you to all you folks on this blog that constantly spur my mind to keep working! If it weren’t for you fine folks I probably would have given up a long time ago!!

    Hope you all have a great day!! Stay safe!!


    • TimM,

      You might not want to say how you filled in the ‘gap’ but could you say where the ‘gap’ was in the poem, or how it pertained to the poem?

      • Seeker,

        In my solve, I think I was looking farther down the path I was following than I needed to. It’s hard to explain without giving too much away, but if this doesn’t pan out I can still continue down the same path to where I have been looking.

        The way it seemed to me was points on the map… a, b, c, etc… well, when I got to the stanza about being wise and finding the blaze, those points were very far apart with a few other ‘points of interest’ getting passed by. After looking closer at some of those other points, I realized it fits better than where I originally planned to search.

        Either way, I still have a few places to look. I hope that answers your question.


  4. Not sure if this is just confirmation bias or not, but I thought it might be worth sharing. My latest search area required access to private land. Through some research on the county assayers office, I found the land was a ranch set up as an LLC. So I called the trustee listed, a gentleman with a name very similar to a famous golfer. My wife was also listening to the call and before I could get the words out, she said “that sounds just like Forrest Fenn”. I called to request access to his property, but after speaking for about thirty minutes, he never said yes or no. He just said that some in the areas are ‘very jealous’ of their privacy. This gentleman sounded just like Mr. Fenn, not just his voice, but the way he spoke and the words he used. He was very hard of hearing and his wife had to help with the conversation at times. I don’t know if this was actually Fenn or not, but I looked him up after I hung up and found out he was born the same year as Fenn and he is from Texas. I thought if this was the place, then all of the questions about ownership would be answered as well as how Fenn would know if the chest had been found.

    Maybe just a coincidence, but who knows? Anyway, I found what I think may be the blaze and realized I had never given much thought to the end of the poem after ‘the blaze’. Anyone have any thoughts on what the poem directs one to do after ‘look quickly down’. My thoughts were it would be obvious, or right there, but now I am not so sure.

    • If you hadn’t noticed, it’s a very small world. There’s only so many ways you can mix the genetics before you get duplicates. Small towns too. Ever been driving and get that deja vu feeling? I’ve encountered a lot of that on my searches. Definitely does NOT help when one clue/location can have multiple solutions.

      • I’m starting to think Fenn makes a point about Bessie’s tail in his book and his ‘talking in circles’ comment for a reason…He enjoys watching searchers chase their tails.

        • Yeti -Your idea made me think of my namesake, Queen Elizabeth I, and Shakespeare, and the ‘circles’ of my inwardly focused target-like blazes, that lead to the bullseye of my hide-y spot. And then the ‘circles’ of QE1’s court. And then the structure of her Globe Theater.

          Then I thought about a potential time period in Summer for Forrest to hide the bronze chest, because QE1’s nickname was ‘Bess’:

          ‘Bess•Eye•e•S tale’?

          Is that a reference to QE1 and Shakespeare’s “A Mid-Summer Night’s Dream”?:


          Meow. IMO.

    • Hi Yeti;

      Very interesting conversation with “Someone” – Interesting.

      You say/ask: ” Anyway, I found what I think may be the blaze and realized I had never given much thought to the end of the poem after ‘the blaze’. Anyone have any thoughts on what the poem directs one to do after ‘look quickly down’. My thoughts were it would be obvious, or right there, but now I am not so sure.”

      “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze… Wise = having or showing experience, knowledge, and good judgment.

      So, using your good judgement or knowledge, you find the blaze.

      “Look quickly down, your quest to seek…” What is the first thing that you see when you look down, assuming the sun is shining? Answer = your shadow.

      So, if you look down at the base of your Blaze you see it’s shadow.

      “But Tarry scant with marvel gaze…” Why quickly? could it have to do with the length of time a shadow will be in a particular spot? Time = movement.

      Why Marvel Gaze. Marvel = be filled with wonder or astonishment.. Why would one be filled with wonder and astonishment? How about if it was on a special day, at a special time? The Summer Solstice perhaps.

      I could go on with comments about the remaining 9 lines, but this is getting a bit long.

      Good luck in your search and good luck in figuring out ALL of the clues – JDA

      • JDA,

        The conversation was very interesting indeed! I like your thoughts on the shadow, but I guess I will have to wait another year to test. I do think ‘tarry scant with marvel gaze’ is pointing us somewhere in relation to the blaze. Thanks for your thoughts

      • JD,

        Thanks for the comments. It was a very interesting conversation indeed. It made my trip even more enjoyable…I really liked speaking with this gentleman, Forrest or not. I do like the shadow idea, too bad I will have to wait another year to test. Somehow, I think tarry scant with marvel gaze is a big part of it.

        • Please do explane why you think tarry scant is important.
          I will grant you three wishes if you tell me.
          )oops – time to get back in the bootle(

          • There is a marble slab memorial in Hanna, WY with asterisks on certain names. The memorial is for coal miners that died during a cave-in in 1903, the same year Marvin Fenn was born. A scant is also a slab. Coal tar is a byproduct In the production of coke. The phrase in this case may have two meanings, “a tar-related marble slab with observance”, and don’t spend any time on it, but take the arc street that goes to the cemetery to find the headstone for the symbol needed. Marvel would be pronounced with a fricative v. The symbol is E (for echo). This approach assumes you agree that certain lines in the poem contribute a letter toward an encrypted answer, and that the poem in its entirety is needed.

          • The arc road’s name is Tipperary, which gets its name from a spring in Ireland, Tibrid Ara. Ara is also a genus for macaws, like Sinbad. It’s a long way to Tipperary, especially for the stout hearted.

          • americana,

            The previous line in the poem gives us a general direction from the blaze to look (down). So, to me, it would make sense for the next line to give us more specific instructions. In my opinion, that may look something like this:

            Tarry (stay in place), scant (small amount). Stay close to the blaze and look intently (marvel gaze); down (from the previous line).

            Tarry also means covered in tar or black in color; scant also means a stone slab in masonry terms, so…

            In my opinion, we are looking intently down from very close to the blaze for a black or tar colored stone slab. There we will find the chest for us to take and go in peace.

          • It might be useful to logically think through what you’re saying. If almost all words are meaningful, why are there still 8 more lines after “take the chest and go in peace”, and the another 4 from the first stanza (assuming you understand the first clue starts at “begin it where”)? Logically, the chest cannot be at look quickly down, therefore, “look quickly down” and “take the chest” must mean something else.

          • Yeti – so in your opinion, if we are looking for a black covered stone could it possibly have something else dribbled over the top of it? That would suit the description of “marvel gaze.”

            We’ve all talked and talked about this until we are blue in the face so I like appreciate some new thoughts. Thank you so much.

            Sometimes I feel like such a blockhead……

    • Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey
      Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

      It seems IF the correct blaze is found.. all inquiries should be known of and/or obvious, at the time of discovery. I mean, shouldn’t we know what “look quickly down” actually means IF we are truly standing at “the blaze” and worked the poem correctly to achieve that?

      I’m being serious, not sarcastic. No matter how this all unfolds, by the time a searcher actually discovered the blaze, all should be known of, even if there is something else to do… Might this be why no one will stumble upon the treasure chest… they need to “know” they are standing at or seeing “the blaze” by correctly getting to it?

      Otherwise, “the blaze” wouldn’t /shouldn’t-?- make sense to anyone who happens upon it…?

      • Seeker,

        The quote you posted is exactly why I had never given it much thought, I assumed it would be obvious based on that quote. If, for argument’s sake, I do have the correct blaze, the answer to the question asked, ‘how far’, is obvious. Although I think I can answer how far, I still think there may be more to it to determine where to look. After all, he said it’s hidden, and may be buried. Where do we dig or what do we look under? Many, many possible logs or rocks to look under, even if you are very close.

        • Again, Yeti
          Should a searcher understand the poem… would he/she not know what is expected when the blaze of found / discovered-?- {that information optioned in the poem}

          I look at it this way, fenn basically has said “**looking For**” later clues is a folly… right? [Like driving around looking for the blaze before figuring out the poem]
          Yet, tells us to study the poem, analyze and think about it…even plan and observe… Well, how can we not attempt to understand the poem [as a whole] without attempting to understand what the later clues have to tall us overall?
          I don’t adhere to the idea, all that is needed, is to find WWsH…then… work on later information in the poem. I mean if that was true… all we would need is one thread to chat on…WWsH.

        • FD,
          Isn’t the whole point of the poem’s clues is to “find” the blaze? { the chest is only a reward for doing that } So how, or even why, would the blaze be known of [ as to what object it is and where ] before anything else?

          There are many question I would like to ask fenn… the most agonizing question for me personally is:
          Did he know “exactly” where “and” what the blaze would be, before he finished the task of of following the clues while going to hide the chest?

          A yes answer would confirm the actual object can be known of prior… in which case, your question ‘could’ say, the blaze could possibly be found prior to a searcher on site.

          But WhatIF he didn’t know exactly what was going to be used as a blaze and/or exactly where it was. [ size of area, would match size of the object, line of thinking ] Producing a No response to the question.

          Would that be consider a foul-ball, or misleading?

          I mean once the blaze is actually “discovered” [ that means knowing full well what a searcher is looking at ] … If the distance to the chest would be obvious, wouldn’t the ‘spot’ the chest is at be just as obvious?
          The blaze is the magical item being seek [ the treasure chest just got the laziness out of most folks to give this a try ]
          So why would it be a “given” beforehand-?- at any point, prior to following what the clues indicate to do?

          • What if the blaze is just a symbol for another spot along the path? My gut feeling tells me the blaze is just Elmo, WY, for the all the reasons Elmo would symbolize a blaze, and a windlass for another type of gut feeling, and a Lorraine cross.

            In this same area, one can find allusions to Saint Anne (wise mother), aka Hanna. There is Sampo, an allusion to the blacksmith Ilmarinen. Combined we have “if you’ve been wise and found the blaze”.

          • EC
            How can a whole town be a blaze?
            I’m not sure we can call that a single object. Unless you’re using the dot on a map as that object??
            Even in my wildest imagination I can’t see a town as a blaze. Nor that a town can remotely be associated with the treasure chest, that’s a whole lot of structures… gut feeling, symbol, or otherwise…
            IBS comes to mind.

          • I suppose it depends on how anchored one is to a thought model. If you view the poem as a stroll through the mountain woods, I see your point. If you view the poem as a puzzle that yields an end result answer, like an encrypted latitude for example, the lines of the poem would just contribute the answer to each line’s riddle, and a town is nothing more than an answer to help contribute.

          • Seeker, good question about if the distance to the chest would be obvious, wouldn’t the ‘spot’ the chest is at be just as obvious?

            One thing I can think of is a certain distance can still involve a lot of area based on taking a reading from the known object (the blaze).

        • Seeker said…Isn’t the whole point of the poem’s clues is to “find” the blaze? So how, or even why, would the blaze be known of [ as to what object it is and where ] before anything else?

          Because of exactly what you said. What you said is the obvious conclusion or reasoning for not doing that. But imo, a master puzzle maker would know that and maybe find that’s the perfect way to hide something in a way that supposedly makes the worst sense. I think f would accept that kind of challenge.

          • FD,
            I not downing what you said, but I don’t know if he’s a master puzzle maker or not… All I know is… a lot of folks are stumped .
            LOL that could be because it a bad puzzle. [ said in jest ]
            The simple idea is the reader creates an illusion and/or allusion to how ‘they think’ it should play out.
            However, We do have a lot of information we didn’t know about. Not that any of that info helps us ‘towards’ our goal… but it does seem to give more ideas of where not to go with ideas / theories.

            We seem to know how and when he hid the chest… how/when meaning summer, two trips, in one afternoon, less than a few miles.. even possibly in 2010 IF we take the idea of “age age almost eight” into consideration.
            Or other things stated that might relate… like; no one should take anything off a reservation, or an 80 yr old is not going down and up and down a canyon… and… exactly what the first clue is [in the poem], or he followed the clues when he hid the chest, or there are no short cuts, or we better have the very first clue nailed or we have nothing… etc. etc.

            Does this help in actually solving the poem? Not really, but it does help, not to head into the unknowns, that earlier searchers didn’t have… Not in Nevada, Idaho, Utah, Canada, and on and on. Not associated with a structure, the chest is not underwater, even a map of the general search area, other thing said above… the 9 year list goes on…

            But the one thing that keeps coming back is to nag all is; “being it where warm waters halt”
            This can’t be “just” a simple starting point. It seems to be the leg to the foot, the arm to the hand, the hand to the middle finger some might be holding up the their screens right now after I said; it can’t be a simple starting point – lol

            The question is, WHY is it so important that without this clue [ even when folks have solved that clue and the second clue’s references / on site, and some indicated in the correct the first four clues ] We can not solve how the poem unfolds as fenn intended?

            It really doesn’t matter to me what folks think of as this or that physical clue’s references… what matters to me is;

            Understanding what the poem is relaying on how to go about the task. [the path]

            Where are all the clue’s location? [Not so much each psychical clue’s placement].
            Why fenn seemingly needed to follow is own created clues [ his blueprint ]?

            The only answer I can come up with, logically, is; not only do we need to find where and what the blaze is… fenn might have had to do the same. Which is located within his special place, and not so much the idea of a ‘special’ 10″ spot / place. [ opinion, of course ].

            It may seem far fetch for some… only the whole idea of this challenge is to do just that;
            To complete (completed?)… what the poem is supposed to do… IF you’ve Been Wise and Found the blaze.

            Sometimes the slightest meanings means so much in understanding what is said;
            Find; To locate.
            Found: To build from.

      • FD: you won’t, because you won’t be able to distinguish it from any of the other “ten billion blazes out there.”

      • Seeker,

        That quote is the reason I have never given it much thought in the past. Let’s say, for arguments sake, you are at your blaze on the edge of a cliff high above a creek below. The answer to the question asked “How Far?” is obvious…at the bottom of the cliff. But that still leaves many possibilities for the actual hiding place, especially when you consider it could be buried or otherwise concealed. I have a strong feeling the ending of the poem is a little more important than I originally thought.

        • Yeti: don’t forget the general solve vs. correct solve MW Periodic Words: “Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a ‘correct solve’ unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a ‘general solve.’ What do you think? f”

          From this we must conclude that if a searcher believes “the blaze” is the last clue (or alternatively, look quickly down from that blaze), then that blaze had better be extremely specific, geographically, and I just don’t see how it can serve in that capacity. The more searchers force the blaze to be the final clue, the more it seems they are backed into a corner due to incompatibility with other ATFs.

          • I think there is a difference between searchers saying the blaze is the last clue in the poem and where a possible riddle that needs to be figured out the blaze resides in the poem.

          • Look quickly down could mean look just down stream from where water is moving more quickly. Rapids, waterfall, or just faster current.

            It’s possible we may not know what it means until we are on site at the blaze. We are told that if we find the blaze the answer to the distance should be obvious.

          • Zap – do you take away anything from Forrest’s use of “let’s coin a new phrase”?

            In my opinion, the last stanza switches to numismatics to then carry back over to the first stanza, hence the importance of Cacher in the Rye (secreted in the grain, like in the wood).

      • What in the blazes is going on here? “I was careful, a blaze can be on a tree, in a fire, on the face of a horse, and a host of others” ” The blaze is a physical thing. It’s not theoretical….It doesn’t take a scientist to figure out the blaze is something you can look at. The fact is the important one is out there.” “….. you can find it if you can find the blaze as the result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.” “Becky, you’re a rascal….” “So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.” “You’re going to have to figure out the clues, go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that.”
        With all of these comments…some repeated over and over with similar verbiage….through much of the Chase years, I think that it becomes fairly clear that the clues need to be deciphered in order as to what they are and where they are…up to and including the blaze. I seriously doubt that any shadow/pointy magic is involved and that it may be possible that the blaze can be determined if the previous clues have been correctly figured out….but not visual using google earth or any map. Just the idea that an object can cast a shadow… in itself actually then morphs into more than one object…if you want to call the shadow an object. It then becomes a dubious choice as to which is actually the blaze.
        I think the correct solution to the clues in the poem forms the map that gets the searcher to the blaze and then the whereabouts of the treasure becomes apparent.
        I almost feel awkward talking so much about the Blaze in the O+Ends… sorry Dal.

        • Ken ~ ‘Just the idea that an object can cast a shadow… in itself actually then morphs into more than one object…if you want to call the shadow an object.’

          Umm you can’t. Not really. While an object can be seen, it also have to be able to be touched. You can not touch a shadow. You can touch what the shadow lands on… even it that is water, for example.

          A shadow can’t make an object ‘morph into more then one object.’ The object is still the same even in the pitch dark.

          BUT, an object is what is needed to cast as shadow. I don’t think they are one in the same. One [ the object ] only blocks light to create a shadow. LOL isn’t that the same as saying light is an object? No it’s not… we can not touch light, even though we see it. Light is produced by some kind of object… a flash light for example, a campfire, a match… LOL we might as well call a sneeze an object.

          That’s the oddie for the end this my post.

        • “So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.”

          I had to back and refresh the old brain cells;
          ~You can’t go out looking for the blaze and expect to find the treasure chest. There’s 10 billion blazes out there. So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.

          LOL, what does; ‘Let “it take you” to the blaze’ mean-?- when we are told we need to start, nail down, the first clue.
          Isn’t -lol- IT, in that comment, referring to WWsH, the first clue?
          Think about that for a moment. IT takes you… How is that accomplished?

          Ha! We could look at it as a lazy river ride, but “halt” seems to but a stop to that idea [ pun intended ].
          How else would the “first clue” take us to the blaze?… isn’t there supposed to be few ‘points’ to stomp to in-between?

          Unless, we don’t actually leave WWsH…?

          • Well Seeker… I did not get into anything about how to read the poem or how to correctly solve the clues in the poem. My comments were strictly an overview of part of the big picture. Don’t forget…”You’re going to have to figure out the clues, go to the first clue and then the clues are consecutive after that.”
            Call my comments an observation if you will. “…but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.” Directions to where? One dot on a map?

          • Seeker – if the answer to wwwh is Warm Springs Station (kinda has warm waters halt right in the name), one could reasonably continue this pattern to other places on a map that match the riddles. For example, not far but too far to walk could be Nine Mile Station next to Register Cliff. If “putt in” below the home of Brown, I could be at a golf course at a ruts park just south of Guernsey. From there, I just follow the ruts toward the SW borders until I get to Rock Creek Hollow, a place known for the same name of his dog. If I follow Rock Creek up to Atlantic City, I have a good argument for no spade since this is the wrong gambling Atlantic City, and a place of heavy loads and water high (Atlas is the root of Atlantic, and a good map). This is also a place where a homely girl (plain Jane) was for quite some time, Calamity Jane Canary (not like Sloan’s diamond). It’s also a nice place for canasta (Basket). Then head over to the triple crown of Sampo / Hanna / Elmo if you are wise and found the blaze…

            See how this might go?

          • You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. f

            If you knowingly make it within several (two or more but not too many) steps of the treasure, and the distance from the blaze to the treasure will be obvious aren’t we inside the blaze at this point?

    • Yeti,
      One thought I have had was:
      Look quickly down = look immediately (due) south. But I won’t know that until I find my blaze. I think if all things were to align, and I was to find a blaze, I do think the rest will be obvious. Just my 2 cents.

      • Yellowdog,

        Maybe it will be, but unless the blaze says “dig here”, or “turn over this log”, I’m not so sure it will be. The poem seems to indicate the blaze is at least some distance away from the chest, so I think a discussion on what may not be obvious is at least worth considering…Just my 2 cents, but I’m sure it’s worth less than that.

    • Good laugh Yeti.
      Coincidences everywhere!
      He’s probably tearing up his property right now. LOL

      • Coincidences or fate?
        Is “it” in the cards and Forrest is the Joker?
        Then again, it might be in the tea leaves.
        I hope we will all be laughing when this is over.

  5. I believe that when we find the BLAZE we will be looking UP , that`s why we look QUICKLY DOWN !!!!!

    • My question for a few years is why “quickly”?
      What will we miss if we do it normally or slowly?
      Why do we have to do it quickly?

    • Jake: quickly makes more sense if the instruction Forrest’s poem is giving us has nothing to do with actions taken while BOTG.

      • Big “If” Zap.
        I suppose it could mean the treasure is very close at the base of the blaze? But I still am befuddled why “quickly” although I read here on this blg someone had another definition that meant below the top or something like that.

      • You might replace the word “quickly” with “immediately” and see if that doesn’t open up other interpretations for you.

        • I can see that Zap, Immediately will work in certain conditions and places you are and can see what JPE is saying that maybe when we are up the creek looking for heavy loads and water high, we are below where the blaze is and we should be looking up to see the blaze.
          UP your creek. Water HIGH
          Look quickly – immediately – down.
          Not all the way down, just right below or something like that.

        • Hi Jake: okay, I’ll just spell it out. Pretend you aren’t on a treasure hunt but instead are following a written recipe. Ignore the reality of the things the recipe seems to be referring to. Follow its directions literally at the instant you are reading. Does that give you another perspective?

          • Ya,
            It makes me hungry, but I do not want to mix ingredients and cook them right now. I’m not sure I want to swap out the ingredients I see in the poem for yours.

            I am trying to follow it’s directions literally at the instant I’m reading them as you say and we come to different directions of course. But I do like what JPE has to offer and is unique and new from what I have seen here in the years I have been here and other sites.

          • LOOK DOWN at “tarry scant,” Jake…

            Hinting; to do something, those word mean.
            ~to “linger” a “short /small mount” of time.
            In fact, quickly does mean; “lasting a short time”

            Where’s a tire tool when ya need one??

          • That theory has been talked about here for years Zap.
            I think that all the directions and places in the poem are physical geographic locations. I’m not ready to marry the poem to the poem but more likely a map and location.

          • Now you’re at least considering ways in which to ride a backwards bicycle. But at this point I must invoke Forrest: “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out.”

          • The backwards bicycle is for those that that over complicate the poem and need to relearn how to ride a bicycle the normal way, not the other way around. LOL.

            I can’t believe you fell for that and you probably fell for the hypo lit girl from india or wherever as well.

            How many bridges have you bought?

          • Jake: I assume you still have “the blaze” as your 9th clue? If so, it must be obscured from satellite/aircraft view — e.g. hidden from view by evergreen forest crowns, or on the wall of a narrow slot canyon. It can’t be in the open, otherwise you could see it on GE.

          • In a physical sense… stanza 4 might be telling you where “in there” is. And relates to stanza 6 for your effort and “in the wood”

            Also the idea for two trips.

            JPE, I can see what you’re saying.
            But I have to wonder if we are higher than the blaze when we come across it.
            Kinda the idea of; the end is near/nigh?… what is the end that we come to? All we seem to have to work with is HL n W “high.”

            Nothing seem to say the blaze is “at” this clue reference.. But it may be the only stop we have, to spot the blaze… down In There.
            Who says the blaze is out in the open-?- or discovered from any point of entering its local.

            Fenn talk about debris blowing in and possibly covering the chest… Q&A about buried vs. hidden.

          • No, Jake, the backwards bicycle “Smarter Every Day” link seemed to be intended for searchers who are stubborn in their thinking and not being creative enough: “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.” Example: thinking that “Not far, but too far to walk” is some nondescript distance, and that the thing that matters is figuring out the location of home of Brown.

            The progress of the two-clue solvers was frozen for at least five years. Clearly unconventional thinking is required to get past that hurdle. Wouldn’t you say that anyone today with an obvious or generic third clue solution (something that the two-clue solvers naturally would have come up with) has not solved it?

          • Zaphod:
            I can read your spelling. Glad that you’re not telling. Last fall was blazing. Since then been lazing. All now understood, soon be in the wood. Et tu?

          • Zap,
            I had to watch the video again and come to the conclusion that whoever watches anything, they have a built in bias and interpretation of it and you can reprogram your brain do think another way but is difficult the older you get.

            Who really knows which crowd of thinkers he is speaking of? : “The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.”
            Sounds like he’s trying to help those that over complicate the poem.

            There is “may be” in the quote you provided by Fenn but there are not in the one I offered.

            Pretty straightforward to me.

          • TTOTC is basically a classical style treasure hunt with a map (the regular bike). Intuitively we want to start with the first clue, and follow the remaining 8 to the proverbial “X” marks the spot (jump on and ride the bike normally). But FF has done something to the poem (changed how it steers just like in the backwards bike video), which he has repeatedly said is our map. Our task, then, is to unlearn how to steer through the classical treasure hunt map solving style (riding a normal bike) and learn how FF wants us to steer in his treasure hunt (ride his altered bike). IMHO.

        • There are other interpretations available. For example, there is a weird synonym phrase for “quickly” that relates to a scalded cat. Forrest talks about scalding chickens (down). A skald is a poet. Perhaps we are to look for the gravestone of a Finnish poet whose last name means “chicken” in our quest to “finish”.

          One such skald chicken is Betty Poulos of Hanna, WY. Her headstone has a book of poetry she wrote called “Echoes”. I can’t find a copy of it because it was only privately published, a bit like Evetts Haley’s book to Nita, and his version of “Courage wears a crimson coat” or whatever on his page 15. Here we are to ignore the tar-product-related scant with memorial asterisks and head to the cemetery where there those resting in peace.

        • Perhaps quickly can be transformed into something else entirely?

          One possibility:

          Quickly = Quick Li

          Now by cogitating a but on what Li might refer too, one might start using ideas and words in the poem . . .

          Have by homophone can be Halve . . . So Li might be half a word?

          So hear me all could imply that Me is a word fragment. If added to Li, one can make Lime.

          Quick lime was used in the past to accelerate the decay of the dead.

          Perhaps the intention of Look Quickly Down is to see something to which Quicklime might have been used?

          Or, perhaps, it means to look quickly down Lime Creek?

          Or perhaps another strategy is needed?

          Perhaps we need to break the word down?

          Q sounds like Cue. Cue = Hint = 17 or 8

          U sounds like You = Searcher = 21 or 3

          I = Fenn/author = 9

          C = See = 3

          K = OK by drawl = 11 or 2

          L = El (The in Spanish, Elevation by abbreviations) = 12 or 3

          Y = Why = 25 or 7

          It is possible that an elevation is hidden in this word.

          Not trying to solve anything for anyone here. Just trying to lay out some possible methods of information extraction from any word in the poem.

          Food for thought only.

          Regards to all.

      • Zap…just curious why you would think that the instruction Forrest’s poem is giving us is not related to actions taken while BOTG. The poem has been described by Fenn as a map with directions… so why would a person not heed that advice? Don’t mess with my poem comes to mind every time I hear these things.

        • Hi Ken: I’m offering a potential explanation for the word choice “quickly.” If the blaze is the last clue and all the searcher has to do is look down at their feet, then he/she is in a bit of a quandary because the blaze must be natural, not man-made, and be large enough (or inaccessible enough) that it is infeasible to remove, yet small enough that it doesn’t show up on GE. And it must provide precise enough directions that a searcher can knowingly walk to within several steps of the treasure’s location.

          What size blaze is too large to remove, yet too small to see on Google Earth? Forcing the blaze to be the 9th clue causes Forrest’s ATFs to eliminate nearly all of his “10 billion blazes.” It would be much less restrictive to have the blaze not be the final clue, because then there are no restrictions on its size, and no prohibition against it being visible on GE.

          • Zap –

            “… because the blaze must be natural, not man-made … yet small enough that it doesn’t show up on GE.”

            [citation needed]

          • Citations for E.C.:

            1. Audio clip on Dal’s (6/24/2014) — FF: “The blaze is a physical thing. It’s not theoretical. Boy did I give you a big clue. (Laughter.) That’s not a clue, I mean, it doesn’t take a scientist to figure out that a blaze is something you can look at.”

            2a. Scrapbook 35 (4/17/2013): “I said on the Today Show that the treasure is not associated with any structure.”

            2b. MW Q&A (6/30/2014): “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d” FF: “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information. f”

            3. Dal’s blog under Safety First (6/29/2017): “The treasure chest is not under water, nor is it near the Rio Grande River. It is not necessary to move large rocks or climb up or down a steep precipice, and it is not under a man-made object.”

            Consequence of 1-3 if the blaze is the 9th clue: the blaze is a *natural*, physical object because the treasure cannot be under, near, or associated with a man-made object or structure.

            4. Nine Clues Part 31 (9/26/2014): forrestfennposted at 4:06 pm: “… But there is confusion somewhere. While it’s not impossible to remove the blaze it isn’t feasible to try, and I am certain it’s still there.”

            Consequence of #4: the blaze is not small; if it were, it could be removed, defaced, destroyed, altered, etc. So the blaze is something natural that is of sufficient size that it would be infeasible (but not impossible) to try to remove it. (A not-impossible-but-infeasible example that comes to mind would be high explosives or a bulldozer: possible, but certainly not practical, and probably quite illegal in either case.)

            5. MW Six Questions (2/4/2018): end of Q6 answer: “Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

            Consequence of #5: the blaze cannot be visible on GE if the blaze is the last clue.

          • Thank you, sir. Very comprehensive! I appreciate your organization and catalogue.

            However, in none does it state “the blaze is not associated with a structure.” These merely state the TREASURE is not associated with a structure. I feel there is an incomplete assertion being offered that the blaze is physically co-located with the treasure and argue that it cannot logically be.

          • Hi E.C.: thanks!

            “However, in none does it state “the blaze is not associated with a structure.” These merely state the TREASURE is not associated with a structure.”

            We have some additional guidance on this, though it is second-hand information so one should tread gently. Still, I believe the source is highly reliable, so it should not be casually dismissed. Apologies for the length, but I think it’s important to capture the entirety of the quote.

            On Cynthia Meachum’s blog (2/28/2018): “In my book which was published the beginning of Oct, 2017, I wrote on page 23 a “postscript” about a conversation I had with ff soon after one of my treasure hunts in Sept 2014. Here are my words from the book: ‘Not long after this, I met Forrest at Collected Works Book Store in Santa Fe. And once again, I enthusiastically relayed this search story to him. When I discussed the CCC cabin as being the ‘home of Brown,’ he immediately said, ‘Don’t you remember, I said it can’t be associated with a structure.’ Hmmm… does that mean NONE of the clues can be associated with a structure? Later I talked to a local woman who used an Indian ruin as her home of Brown… she confirmed he reminded her of the same statement: ‘The hidden treasure is not associated with any structure’ … period! IMO (in my opinion) he is saying NONE of the nine clues can be associated with a structure.’”

            Now, even if this is a fully accurate account, not all manmade objects are necessarily “structures.” But I think it would be difficult for Forrest to claim the poem could still be solvable in a century or a millennium if one or more of the clues was indeed a manmade structure (the pyramids at Giza notwithstanding).

          • Thanks for the explanation Zap. That seems reasonable and probably just as good as any that have been given. What if the word quickly means just that… quickly, immediately… with no strings attached? The clues are supposed to get progressively easier according to Fenn, not harder.
            I do not think size matters Zap…. at least where the blaze is concerned. My belief is that the target is the blaze, just as Fenn has intimated by his many comments. I can think of a couple of very clever reasons to refute your explanation on size or visibility…but that’s just my way of getting to that particular point. Thanks for the feedback, and welcome back.

          • Zap;

            I do not see why you say that it must be small enough that it can not be seen on GE or even on a TOPO map? Just because a “blaze” can be seen on GE does not mean that it will be recognized as a blaze.

            I think that direction is also important. A big rock, seen from many directions is just that – a big rock. This same rock, when seen from a particular direction may look like a Big Bison Bull – or “Something” recognizable to the searcher as a blaze.

            Out “Big Rock” when seen from overhead may not resemble our “Big Buffalo Bull” at all. JMO – JDA

            P.S. NO, my blaze does NOT look like a Big Buffalo Bull – Just an example 🙂

          • Zap;

            You say: “MW Six Questions (2/4/2018): end of Q6 answer: “Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

            1) – Who says that the blaze is the last clue?
            2) – Even IF the blaze is the last clue. the quote says: “Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”, it does NOT say that Google Earth will not let you see it. – I explained my thoughts on this earlier – Direction is important. JMO – JDA

          • E.C.

            Would you please explain the logic behind your last statement: ” I feel there is an incomplete assertion being offered that the blaze is physically co-located with the treasure and argue that it cannot logically be.”

            Thanks in advance – JDA

          • Hi JDA: I just think that if the blaze is something that can be found on GE or a map as a consequence of armchairing the prior clues, then Forrest could not say “Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

            Your front-runner scenario for the endgame is actually not in disagreement with my claim that the blaze is not the last clue. In your case, the blaze’s mere existence does not reveal the treasure’s location — you must do the right thing with it. “Look quickly down” does not convey adequate information — there’s no mention of shadows, of the blaze being used as a gnomon, or the required date and time information.

            But I want to hit on a point you made: “Just because a “blaze” can be seen on GE does not mean that it will be recognized as a blaze.” My counter: if you don’t recognize it as the blaze while looking at it on GE, what drew you to it in the field? You suggest that it is a unique BOTG perspective not provided by a map or GE — and that’s fair enough. But then how to explain Forrest’s ATF that all of the clues could be solved from home “in theory.” Yes, he adds “but not in practice,” but that doesn’t erase his lead-in that it could ~theoretically~ be done. I would say that if you need to be on site to even recognize the blaze for what it is, then not all the clues can be theoretically solved from home.

          • Hi JDA: quick follow-up:
            1) – Who says that the blaze is the last clue?

            That’s the whole point of this thread. I’m trying to logically prove that it can’t be.

          • There is no way to logically prove the blaze is or isn’t the last clue without putting BOTG and finding the treasure.

          • Zap;

            Paraphrasing – You asked what brought me to the blaze if I did not recognize it as the blaze while armchairing a solve? Maybe I just saw a “Big Rock”, and thought that it “could” be a blaze, but only when viewed from a particular spot the fact that it WAS the blaze was revealed. I think that “wise” comes into play here.

            I completely agree with your assertion that the blaze is NOT the last clue. It is clue #5 by my count. Two whole stanzas remain – or even 11 lines remain after the word blaze. – If BIWWWH is clue #1 we solve only 8 lines after the WWWH line until we get to the BLAZE line – Less than 1/2 of the lines used. Not logical that the blaze is the last clue – at least not to me. JMHO – JDA

          • Jake;

            THAT is an illogical statement. Logic can be used to prove a lot of things. Logic tells us that gravity works, we do not have to get hit in the head by an apple before we can say that logically gravity causes things to fall.
            Just sayin’

            As I mentioned in my post to Zap.

            1) the poem is comprised of 166 words; six stanzas; 24 lines containing 9 clues.
            2) Forrest spent a large number of years getting the poem to say what he needed it to say.
            3) The nine clues are consecutive.
            4) Every word is not needed, but Forrest would not discount ANY of them.
            5) The BLAZE is mentioned at about the middle of the poem – not the end of the poem
            6) Why would Forrest place the last clue in the middle of the poem? – NOT logical.

            Does this PROVE, by logic, that the blaze is not the last clue? Probably not, but it sure places a lot of doubt that it is – IMHO – JDA

          • JDA – the logic I use draws from Forrest’s instruction:

            “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”

            A few words. Not whole stanzas. Therefore one cannot stop the map at the end of “go in peace”.

            Jake – your point is true. Only the one who walks away with the treasure will know this logic for certain, but there is a pretty clear case to not ignore up to 3 stanzas.

          • You know what’s logical JDA?
            You guys should stop using the word “logical” because I don’t think you guys have any. LOL
            I’ve never seen such abuse of the word anywhere else.

          • Zaphod,seeker and whoever.
            What if the blaze can be seen from GE but the part of the blaze you need cannot. And that were the blaze in the poem is not actually the blaze you are seeking. Just a thought. Also what is ATFs.
            Just curious.

          • Zaphod,seeker and whoever.
            What if the blaze can be seen from GE but the part of the blaze you need cannot. And that were the blaze in the poem is not actually the blaze you are seeking. Just a thought. Also what is ATFs.
            Just curious. Imo

          • Hi Jake: “There is no way to logically prove the blaze is or isn’t the last clue without putting BOTG and finding the treasure.”

            You’re correct, of course, so I amend my earlier remark. I’m trying to show that you can use Forrest’s ATFs (for Grasshopper: after-the-fact remarks) to prove that if the blaze is the 9th clue, there are far more restrictions on what it could be compared to the possibilities if it isn’t the 9th clue.

          • Grasshopper. ATF’s are After The Fact comments made by Forrest usually. And I agree, when I drive from Taos to Santa Fe I drive by Camel Rock, its a huge rock that from the right angle looks exactly like a huge camel head, it looks alot like a camel head, it stands out, but from GE it doesn’t look like anything special at all, you can see it but it definitely doesn’t look like a camel head…

        • I like E.C.’s comment…

          I feel there is an incomplete assertion being offered that the blaze is physically co-located with the treasure and argue that it cannot logically be.

          • JDA asked Two questions above…

            Would you please explain the logic behind your last statement: ” I feel there is an incomplete assertion being offered that the blaze is physically co-located with the treasure and argue that it cannot logically be.”

            Thanks in advance – JDA

            5) The BLAZE is mentioned at about the middle of the poem – not the end of the poem
            6) Why would Forrest place the last clue in the middle of the poem? – NOT logical.

            There is a very reasonable explanation for your last question. If f put a hint in the first stanza and all 350,000 searchers see the word “hint” glaring at them in that stanza then f really wasn’t trying to absolutely hide that he put a hint in the first stanza. The same principal as having the word “Begin” in the second stanza ultimately proving to be an easy indicator that the line BIWWWH was/is the first clue. Taken one step further, the word “cease” could explain accordingly that the clues, as written in the poem, are finished by that point.

            There’s more. If there is a hint in the first stanza, then it’s reasonable that f might have wanted to balance that out with a later stanza that didn’t provide a hint or clue like stanza 5. Wow, it’s risky to discount a few words in the poem. I’m game.

            Stanza 6 could be just about providing title to the finder. So, if that’s true, that’s another valid reason.

            I don’t think one will solve what the blaze is from just the line- If you’ve been wise and found the blaze. The same concept applies to the BIWWWH line. If true, that means they hinge on something else. Something else in the poem, book, map or during botg. Some might think it could be a combination of the those.

            I think the blaze is able to be figured out from the poem since f has said the poem is all we need to find the tc. If that’s the case, I don’t think the book gives us the blaze. I think the book hints give us a correct, general area where we can easily determine the correct wwwh by further figuring out the mystery of stanza 1.

            About the blaze being in close proximity to the tc. Since the clues are consecutive and contiguous, I think that eliminates all the clues before the mentioning of the blaze in the poem as being the blaze. That is further reinforced by keeping in mind that the figuring out a clue gets us closer to the tc.

            I think that the way f phrased the blaze line means the finder should be able to have found the blaze prior to that line in the poem…if wise.

            Imo, that means the first stanza is the only thing that the blaze clue can hinge from. That possible hint in the first stanza is what steers us to the correct wwwh and is also the answer to the blaze mystery.

          • I’ll add to my above post…

            Since I tried to lay out a reasonable approach to the overall picture of the clues, one conclusion of that is the blaze would be the furthest clue away from the tc. This is because the clues get you closer to the tc and you solved the blaze early on or first.

            And no, this doesn’t violate the ATF statement by f that you can’t start by looking for the blaze or in the middle of the poem.

  6. Zap- I think that ff couldn’t say look but not to far a way – to look quickly down – to me means to look quickly- look ahead of the blaze but not to far – for your quest to cease – I see this as the treasure not being where the blaze is

  7. Imagination? Knowledge? How do they fit together?
    “Keep your head in the clouds and your feet on the ground.”

  8. “But tarry scant with marvel gaze”
    Could that possibly mean – don’t just stand there with a silly look on your face?
    Just using my imagination….

  9. Why does f use little brown squares at the end of each chapter instead of a period or dot, with the exception of ” important literature “?

    • In typography, this is called a tombstone. Why would we he draw our attention to a tombstone?

      • E.C. Waters – Could Forrest be referring to the home of Brown bears? And the original ‘box’ boundary of YNP? Did Forrest want his ‘tombstone’ to be within or near that park boundary, because of his early years spent in and around YNP?

        And what type of land does the color brown refer to, on that Benchmark map in TFTW? And on my topo map?

    • Eaglesabound, are you talking the ‘asterisk” for important literature? Sorry, at work, forget what is in the book, but do know about page 15, and why. At least I think I do. To answer your question, I thought those were used to end a certain topic. Haven’t really thought about little brown boxes. I’m against thinking it’s in any National anything, we would need to think about that ‘abandon’ law. Don’t think f put it on that type of land. But, thinking about legends, keys, asterisks, etc… makes me think of the bottom of a map, which would seem like your thought just may be possible. For me, it’s a no-go, but doesn’t mean it’s not correct. More digging on your part…:)

  10. Well, IMO of course. .check out the map in the back of TFTW. Also the map put out by the Fennboree.
    The square symbol designates National Parks, National Monuments, and National Recreational Areas.
    It could be f is telling us the treasure is in one of these areas.

  11. I’m tired of scrolling all the way up there.
    We know WWWH is the 1st clue.
    We know that there are a few (3 or more) clues in the 2nd stanza.
    So, if there are 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza, then why can’t there be another 3 or 4 in the next?

    How many times has Fenn mentioned WWWH and the blaze in the same phrase?
    Many that I know of.
    We know these are 2 clues from what Fenn has stated.

    How many times has Fenn mentioned WWWH and any other one clue?
    None that I know of.

    Logic is an overused and misunderstood word that is twisted by ones own biased thinking by most.
    Now that’s logical.

    • Well, Jake, I’d say if anything, logic has been underused by at least a portion of the searcher community. People hiking 4 or more miles one-way to their hidey locations, or gaining a couple thousand feet of elevation; people using canoes or rafts (when Forrest said he took the same path back to the car that he took going out to the treasure location); people using a tree as a blaze; people digging 12-foot deep holes; people searching south of Santa Fe. I’m sure there are other more egregious examples.

      You imply that there is significance to the fact that Forrest has mentioned WWWH and the blaze together in statements, as if that means they could only be the start and the end. There is little significance to Forrest failing to mention other clues in conjunction with WWWH for the simple fact that he has never definitively identified *any* of the clues beyond these two. Yes, I could make a good argument that “Put in below the home of Brown” is a clue because of those “can’t be associated with a structure” remarks to Cynthia (and others) about their past choices for HoB. (There was also the off-the-cuff “If I told you that, you’d go right to the chest!” in response to the “Who’s Brown?” question.)

      As a side note, we do not know definitively that the second stanza has 3 or 4 clues. Forrest responding with “That sounds like 3 or 4 to me” is not the same as saying “No, there are 3 or 4 clues in there.” Do I ~believe~ there are more than two clues in that stanza? You bet I do, but not because of his non-committal reply to host Carol Off.

      • OK, I found it.

        “That’s the first few clues”
        He read stanza 1 which we know has no clues and stanza 2 which we know has WWWH as the 1st clue and then says “That’s the first few clues”.

        Pretty convincing evidence to me and he sounded genuine in his response.

        BTW, I do agree with what you say in your 1st paragraph. That’s logical as long as Fenn was accurate in his statements.

        Going back to the other interview “sounds like 3 or 4 to me” in the second stanza matches with the latino interview so we can say he was telling the truth.

        So, yes, according to the Latino interview, there are a few clues in the second stanza.
        The defence rests.

          • No problem Sandy,
            I think it helps to read the man behind the curtain a little better if you drink his koolaid in moderation.

          • Jake, if your solve points to Montana, I suggest you get some opinions from trusted friends or family members before leaving on a search trip there.

          • Tall Andrew: as much as Jake and I disagree on the finer points of deciphering Fenn’s poem, one thing we do not disagree on is the state where Forrest hid the treasure. I can’t speak for him, but I will never search in any state other than Montana, and I’m mystified why anyone would search anywhere else. But I’m fine with not having more company in the Treasure State.

        • Thanks for sharing, Jake. Prior to reading excerpts from his poem, FF says he is going to read the first few lines, and then does so. Afterwards, you are correctly hearing him say thats the first few clues, but he was stumbling over his words a bit when trying to make his comment, so it could be a case of the wrong word being used—ie he used clues instead of lines, which was the wording he used before his reading. FF stumbles in his wording sometimes, so I am not going to be so quick to jump on that audio clip as being definitive proof that thats the first few clues because in the totality of the interview, especially in his wording preceding the reading, he is talking about lines from the poem.

          Thats the thing about interpretation—we all have one.

          Thanks again for sharing.

          PS – I am sure Zap has a database of ATFs whereby FF seemingly used the wrong word in something he said as he was stumbling a bit in his answer.

          • …..But ya can’t make him drink.

            I know it well.

            But when the horse is already supersaturated, he has no reason to drink.

            Also true if the well is poisoned.

            We all have our biases that are hard to get past.

            If you take a look at a couple of quotes by FF regarding his bones being a part of his first version of the poem, you may see that FF really is only human, allowed to make a mistake from time to time and be forgiven for same. We all know he got well and ruined the story, so had to change the wording from “leave my bones” to something else. On the Tarryscant website, use “Leave my bones” as the search criteria if ya want to follow along with my assertion below.

            In the first of the search hits from using those words to search by, you will notice he says “And the original version of the poem said…”

            In the second resulting quote you will notice he says “And so, the initial part of my poem said something like, ‘Leave my bones alone.’ ”

            I offer that as a perfect example of FF stumbling over his words and using the wrong one. In the second instance he should have said initial VERSION of my poem, just like the first quote asserts when he says “original version”.

            I feel this way because if we are to believe that his bones were mentioned in the INITIAL PART of his poem (like the second quote stated), wouldn’t it seem that he would be taking stanza’s from the poem out of order, thus negating his consecutive order/contiguous assertions, especially since the stanza that the bones line seems to reference is stanza #4, which is clearly the latter part of the poem, not the initial part as he was quoted?

            As you once told me, I am sometimes a wise guy without any wisdom.

            All of this is IMHO.

            Drink if ya want to.

            Cheers none-the-less.

          • Bowmarc,
            Clearly Fenn made a mistake when he said “And so, the initial part of my poem said something like, ‘Leave my bones alone.’ ”

            I don’t see how you can say Fenn made a mistake when he said “That’s the first few clues” in the Bogota interview. Remember the other interview that Zap stated where it backs up this interview?
            So, are you saying he made the same mistake in 2 different interviews?
            That seems highly unlikely to me.

            We all do it. We get so stuck on our own theory and bias and when we hear Fenn state something that goes against our theory we have to find a reason why Fenn is wrong and we are right just as you did and will discount that info from 2 interviews.
            The horse is dead!

            BTW my quote is about how we contradict ourselves and can be hypocrites at times.
            “I am sometimes a wise guy without any wisdom.”
            Do you see the contradiction there?

          • @ Jake – The man has probably been interviewed thousands of times, so yes, I do think the probability for making the same/similar mistakes is inevitable.

            If, by the other quote, you are referring to the one where he says (paraphrased) sounds like 3 or 4 to me, it has been reiterated already by many others that SOUNDS LIKE and THAT IS (phrased that way to point towards your statements that such is a certainty) are two very different things.

            It boils down to how we each interpret the ATF’s. I’m not convinced that those two examples combine to state with ultimate certainty that stanza number two contains the first few clues because your audio clip may boil down to FF using clues instead of lines (which he said immediately prior to reading the first two stanzas) and in regards to the other ATF, sounds like does not equate to certainly does.

            I understand you are comfortable in your belief that they are proof positive that they both indicate that without the slightest doubt FF has told us there are a few clues in stanza 2 and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors to solve TTOTC.

            The horse may have died because he got lost in stanza two, but I don’t know that for certain either.

          • Well Bowmarc,
            We have given the horse a decent burial.

            As I said before:
            We get so stuck on our own theory and bias and when we hear Fenn state something that goes against our theory we have to find a reason why Fenn is wrong and we are right just as you did and will discount that info from 2 interviews.

        • We don’t know anything for certain about stanza one and it’s lack of clues. Yes Forrest says begin it where the warm waters halt and that’s the start of stanza two but the very basic reality is that he uses the phrase “my secret where” in the very first stanza. I will forever believe that there is an important piece of evidence, more pointedly, a clue locked up in that first stanza that helps us to locate just where that secret where, where the warm waters halt. The idea that the first stanza and a four line sentence doesn’t hold a clue is the very definition of illogical by my logic, lol.

          • So, OT a bit since you asserted nothing exists in the first stanza…

            A clou is a nail, and if we are being asked to nail down clues, I wonder if there is a correlation to nails and nail synonyms, perhaps nine of them. This would feed my bias on Elmo being the blaze.

            But if I think about what is in the very first line, I am able to derive a longitude of 104.49 using converted values from words. For example, an as is a Roman coin with a value of 1. I is a Roman number with a value of 1. Have (halve) is a Roman semis with a value of 6 dots. Gons are gradians and can convert to degrees. Alone has a value of 1. So, using biproduct set theory, 116.1 converted = 104.49 longitude.

            Places around this area include Guernsey, Curtis (Baby Ruth), Haystack Range, and a host of other fun stuff as we head N there.

          • Double a,

            There can’t be a clue in the first stanza since f has said the first clue is BIWWWH and that the clues are both consecutive and contiguous.

            There can be a hint in stanza one. Especially since f used the word hint in that stanza and f has admittedly used hints in his Chase.

          • Fundamental…. as I said in the previous comment. Yes Forrest said “where warm waters halt” is the first clue and that phrase starts lthe second stanza. But I think people are taking face value on that statement way too much when they use it to start beyond stanza one. The stanza that is talking about “secret where”. Which just so happens to be the first word on wwwh. So yes I think our physical journey that starts in stanza 2 begins wwwh but I think the solve starts in stanza one with identifying the secret where that is wwwh is located. I not only believe but find it probable that stanza one helps us to identify just where, where is that we need to begin at, with clues. So while we may disagree on how to interpret the words, stanza one can certainly contain clues. It is more than possible that Forrest uses the phrase from stanza two to add a bit of confusion to the notion that he’s really saying to start with finding the secret where. There is also another comment where Forrest tells us to start at the beginning. So while stanza 2 contains the word begin, it doesn’t have the word beginning and stanza 2 is certainly not the beginning of his poem.

          • E.C. Waters et al re lat/long….I get 111 N from the 1st line 1st stanza. Without even trying. Montana.

          • Sandy – cool, but wouldn’t it be 111W? And is it just a coincidence that the chest weighs about 42 lbs? Seems a strange coincidence if so, but given my rampant chase apofennea, I guess I just have to continue to have faith in Wyoming.

          • Hi Sandy: yep — lots of 111’s in the poem and in TTOTC.

            “To an ant a mud puddle can be like an ocean.”

            First 9 letters: TOANANTAM –> At Montana

            Starting that same MW Featured Question:
            “It’s not that easy Milan.”

            Anagram: “Yes, it’s at Montana. f”

      • Excellent, Jake! I had not heard this Spanish language interview before. I’m adding the transcript to my database because it’s the first time I’ve heard Forrest give a definitive estimate on the number of clues contained within the first two stanzas (and by extension, via the NZ interview, the # in the second stanza). Interesting that these two important pieces of information appeared only in foreign media, never the U.S.!

        • Self-correction: I don’t speak Spanish, but that’s probably Portuguese not Spanish.

        • Yup!
          I’m sure the other illogical thinkers will ignore this.
          It indicates at least a few clues stuffed into the second stanza and from the way the 2nd stanza is laid out, written and read is very similar to the 3rd stanza which would indicate there are a few clues in the 3rd stanza as well. Continue that form of literature in the 4th stanza and it’s obvious to me the last clue is the blaze.

        • Well, past performance is no guarantee of future returns. For instance, there might be only two clues in the 3rd stanza, e.g.:

          1: “From there it’s no place for the meek, The end is ever drawing nigh;”

          2: “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high.”

          In each case, a clue could be of the form “Not A, but rather B.” If so, then your clue count would stand at only 5 or 6 leading into the fourth stanza.

          • Just to make thing clear – I have used up 4 clues in Stanza 2 and 3 – Looking for clue #5 in stanza #4 JDA

          • INTERVIEWER after reading 2nd stanza: – “That seems like a couple of clues to me”
            FENN: – “That sounds like 3 or 4 to me” (both laughing)
            3 or 4 clues there…
            TOTAL 3-4 clues

            INTERVIEWER: – “I guess you have to know where the home of brown is?”
            FENN: – “That’s right & you have to know where warm waters halt”
            HOB is a clue…

            INTERVIEWER: – “It says, They’ll be no paddle up your creek just heavy loads & water high, hmmm, couple more clues there”
            FENN: – “Sounds like it to me”
            Another 2 clues…

            Notice how the interviewer skipped “From there it’s no place for the meek” and “The end is ever drawing nigh” so Fenn didn’t comment on this but from the sandwich Q’s and answers you can surmise that these are clues.
            Another 2 clues…

            That makes 7 clues in 2 stanzas 2-3.

            Happy trails…

        • Zap ~ …never the U.S.!’

          Not exactly true.
          What we don’t have [ to the best of my knowledge ] is and audio of fenn saying just that in the USA.
          One written interview [ of the top of my head ] was Back-Packers Mag., which said that fenn said… WWsH is the first clue.
          At the time, it was speculated by blogger / searchers, that the interviewer might have said this because of his own reasoning and fenn may have said something like… need the first clue. [ not fully trusting the interviews as second hand info, idea]
          I think there is at least one more ‘printed’ interview that repeats fenn saying WWsH is the first clue [in the US]. But again, at the time folks wanted verification in audio form before jumping on the bandwagon.

          It wasn’t until loco presented the NZ audio interview [from 2013] that it became confirmed for almost all… self included.
          IF by chance you have JCM doc. I’m sure you can find those interviews [printed] in his information [ I remember talking to him about them ]. Or they are more than likely in Dal’s media section, as well.

          For All… in the audio Jake provided… fenn seems to stumble on the amount of clues [after reading the first two stanzas]. Its hard to hear.. anyone able to clear it up and have the exact wording? I’m just curious to what was said [ like I said, it’s too jumbled for me to hear it well ].

          • Hi Seeker: my transcript of the Colombian radio interview after listening this afternoon, starting at 3:08:

            Host: “Okay, and can you read us a little bit of the poem?”

            FF: “I’ll read the first few lines. ‘As I have gone alone in there, And with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where, And hint of riches new and old. Begin it where warm waters halt, And take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.’ Okay, that’s the first part of the … I think there are 24 stanzas, and that’s the first few clues.”

            I agree he stumbles a bit, especially after saying “that’s the first part of the,” so there is potential wiggle room for “first few clues,” but I’m okay with it. As is, it’s consistent with the Carol Off interview.

          • I think this interview is the piece of commentary by Forrest that has divided the ideas of the community the most. I think that when taken at face value, it’s very clear, there must be multiple clues in the first two sentences and therefore the nine individual sentences can’t be the nine clues that he’s referring to.

            The thing is, I believe that if anything Forrest said really held true at face value, than this race would be long over. Part of the hardship is that we must find the starting location, no easy task. But on the other hand, Forrest himself states that many people have been to the first clue. So finding the location can’t be the sticking point. No I think the sticking point is deception, homophones, synonyms and wordplays.

            I think there must be something at the beginning that throws people off, something that gives his three or four clues comment such validity to those that use it to oppose the one sentence one clue crowd.

            And the reality is that validity only holds true if you believe there is only one solve. If you do, than point blank, that interview tells you that there are multiple clues in that small section, leaving other areas of the poem lacking in value. This notion as well is discredited by Forrest when he states the value of not just lines but specifically words used.

            While I would never divulge any of my rationale because I very much still believe in my solve and process but I believe there are multiple solves. And if you had even a second solve, possibly a big picture and a small picture solve or something to that degree, then it would be quite easy to see the possibility of those two sentences having 3-4 clues and at the same time still be able to give value to each line as it’s own individual clue. It’s own space or action on the map.

            And to divulge even a bit further, if anyone is familiar with hermetic texts and cryptic readings, not only does each word and every illustration have a role to play but even the table of contents. The total number of chapters and the specific number of each chapter is a numerical guide that assists the reader in understanding the truth of the text. So to that point I find it quite interesting that ttotc has 27 chapters. 9×3= 27. Perhaps there’s even a third solve. That notion brings me to the chapter in too far too walk where Forrest is given the 123 brass tacks from the ancient corpse of the Spanish rider. That’s quite the number 1-2-3 and to be of brass tacks. I’m certain that most of us are familiar with the term brass tax or the nuts and boats, or kernels of facts in a given scenario. I find that idea very intriguing, especially since that’s a form of a homophone and my solve revolves around them. So perhaps there’s 1-2-3 bits of brass tax for this overly simple worded yet extremely complex solve.

            Just food for thought from a crazy searcher from Maine.

          • *** *** *** ***
            re Zap’s transcript – FF: “I’ll read the first few lines.
            [reads first two stanzas]
            Okay, that’s the first part of the … I think there are 24 stanzas, and that’s the first few clues.”
            *** *** *** ***

            “24 stanzas” [if heard correctly] doesn’t inspire much confidence in his word choices here.

          • Hi JAK: he did say “stanzas” not “lines,” so yes, that does call into question the reliability of the remainder. Forrest isn’t infallible. On occasion he has even said the chest is buried without correcting himself, even though I’m quite sure it isn’t buried “pirate fashion” surrounded by dirt.

          • Oh, I’m right there with you Zap, not quibbling. And it’s always valuable to *listen* to his verbal ATFs as opposed to just reading them.

            “I’ll read the first few lines . . .”
            [reads 8 lines]

            “that’s the first few clues . . .”
            [probably NOT 8 clues, if he even meant clues]

            In any case I’ve always figured there were two or more (but not many more) clues in the second stanza, so his comments here don’t affect my map one way or the other.

            Thanks for sharing the transcript.


          • JAK: we’re on the same page. I’m confident there are at least 3 clues in stanza 2, and I didn’t need these ATFs from Forrest to come to that conclusion.

          • none that I missed for certain. sometimes it is good to pull them out when appropriate….

          • There’s well over a hundred links on the Media Coverage page. I think it’s a good idea to give yourself a refresher now and then.

    • We have this Q&A:
      Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

      Knowing this, why would we need any clues following blaze?

      • Let’s reverse the question. What reasons can you provide as possibilities for why there are 3 stanzas that are not needed?

        • I would say that the other stanza’s outside of the stanza’s 2, 3, and line 1 of stanza 4 mostly provide hints to clues.

          • Aaron,

            Ha! this has been one of my dilemmas.
            In the idea that stanzas 2, 3 and part of 4 hold the “clues” … OK, what the heck is the rest [ almost 1/2 ] of the poem for?

            I mean, every word was deliberate, right?
            Don’t discount any words, right?
            There are a ‘few’ words that won’t help, right?
            I never heard of, 1/2 of anything being a few of something lol

            Hmm, kinda makes one think about; ~All the information to find the chest~ is not just about the clues themselves?

          • Seeker: “Don’t discount any words”, right?
            Where did Fenn say that.

          • Okay Seeker, I’ll give you more detail into my thoughts about the remaining stanza’s. I believe the first and fifth stanza’s both help with the first clue, along with a slight hint toward HoB. The are very similarly worded to help with locating it. The first is more detailed while the fifth is more broad. They both have double meanings with one being FF’s journey to hide the chest.

            “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

            The first and fifth stanza’s look simple but I guarantee you that he worked on them.

            After blaze in the fourth stanza we have instructions on getting the chest. The sixth stanza gives hints to the area of the blaze and the chest.

            So all is purposeful even the non clues. Hints to help with finding WWsH and HoB, instructions for retrieving the chest once finding the blaze, and hints for the area of the blaze and chest.

            Did I discount much?

        • EC,

          I’ll give it a try, although I think the poem as a whole is needed…

          Remember why Mr. Fenn wrote this poem, then remember he only changed one line when the plan changed. He would need at least a portion of the poem to explain what he is doing ‘As I have gone…with my treasure…hint of riches’. Then the clues to follow him on his journey ‘in there’ begin. After ‘…take the chest’, is a brief explanation of why he did it as well as a confirmation the chest is there. Then the last stanza is a call to action; it will be worth getting off the couch and going out in the cold woods; title to the gold is yours for the taking…

          Just a few reasons one might think of…

          • Yeti: “Only changed one line …” This is false. This is an A/B/A/B rhyming poem, and based on what Forrest has revealed, he changed at least two lines because there is no current poem line that ends with a word that remotely rhymes with “bones.”

          • Yeti, one can make the case that f doesn’t need a portion of the poem to describe what he is doing because he already described what he did with his treasure in the book preceding the poem.

            Why explain that again if your best advice to serious searchers is to both read the poem and the book?

          • Yeti,

            I believe Forrest’s mention of to “look at the big picture”, when responding to Phil Bayman’s question, was Forrest telling Phil and all of us that you cannot disregard anything in the poem, look at it in it’s entirety.


          • FD,

            Since there has been much discussion on logic here as of late…Logic would tell me since no one has the treasure, there is a high likelihood that the logic used thus far is worth about as much as has been found. Since I cannot logically come to the conclusion that I am correct in any of my assumptions, logic would tell me to remain open to as many possibilities as I can; especially the possibility that I am wrong.

            With that said, to answer your question, I believe Forrest wrote the poem not only as a treasure map, but a final note from a man who made a bold choice to end his life rather than let his disease take it from him. This ‘final note’ contains 9 clues and a challenge to go and find his ‘treasures bold’. While he may not have needed his poem to do this, I think he certainly wanted it to.

            I think there is a possibility that this poem is intended to be a metaphor for his final journey as well as a map to follow the trail he blazed to his riches. Think of warm waters halt as a metaphor for his diagnosis of cancer. Notice how abruptly he makes the comment “And then I got cancer” in TTOTC, right after telling the story of a warm memory. I think if you read the whole poem with this in mind, you will see what I mean.

            I am not sure it matters whether each stanza contains a clue or not, remember Fenn said the counting of the clues came after. What I think is important, whether you think the last clue is the blaze or not, is what do you do / what will you see after you ‘look quickly down’. If you KNOW the answer to that, then maybe you should remain closed to the possibility there may be more to it; but if you’re like me and do not consider anything KNOWN until the treasure is found, perhaps it’s worth considering.

          • Yeti, good thoughts. I always keep myself open to possibilities.

            There are certain possibilities that, once thought about, tend to show another way is prbly better.

            For example, a message in a bottle at sea won’t float for ages and come find someone at the shore without the bottle (vessel).

          • Yeti, well put on remaining open to possibilities. I think so many of us get stuck on our solve that we don’t let ourselves think about other possibilities. I firmly believe that if one thought process isn’t leading me to the treasure that I have to scrap it and move to another. Time will tell if that is the right way to go about it, maybe.

          • Zap, regarding your response to Yeti:

            “Yeti: “Only changed one line …” This is false. This is an A/B/A/B rhyming poem, and based on what Forrest has revealed, he changed at least two lines because there is no current poem line that ends with a word that remotely rhymes with “bones.”

            These could be a few versions that wouldn’t take much changing to take out the bones reference:

            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
            Look quickly down, to cease your quest,
            But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
            Just leave my bones and take the chest.

            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
            Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
            But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
            Just leave my bones and go in peace.

          • Hi Marc in Taos: good thinking! “Bones” may not have been the last word in a poem line, and therefore no need to rhyme with it. Forrest hasn’t been too clear on what his wording was when his bones would have been discovered along with the treasure. Some theorized that “stones” would be a good rhyming word with “bones” if he *did* end a line with bones, e.g. “leave my bones” rhymed with “beneath the stones.”

        • Reasons why 3 stanzas aren’t needed?

          I’d say there’s two not needed. The first stanza has a hint. The last two stanzas help with balancing out the first stanza in terms of making it more difficult to spot a vital hint.

          Also, the legalities in the last stanza that don’t help figuring out where the tc is.

          • I couldn’t disagree more with your premise. As jake said, fenn himself states that maybe a few words in the poem aren’t needed but it’s risky to discount any. This poem is based on generalities and metaphors, that a lot of different areas in this region have a funny way of being able to fill in some of the blanks. But my guess is, that if a person were in the correct area, some of the most seemingly useless lines in the poem would take on extreme importance. No way no how 3 stanzas or half of the poem is comprised to fill space, provide a rhyme and cover legality. I don’t even think the poem needs to cover legality, I would bet that the man who spent 15 years penning 9 lines in an exact fashion that would lead one to millions of dollars, covers up that whole legality bit with the process he used to hide the prize. Bottom line though, imo, this poem is a work of art and no line, no word and perhaps no letter should be overlooked or discounted when evaluating it.

          • The legal matter would be interesting to see how a court would decide how “a poem” is /as a legal document.
            Being a poem is ambiguous-in-nature, in literature to begin with… its meant for interpretations… the law can’t be ambiguous.

            Jewelry and coins [gold items] are different to gold in natural form or bricked. But it’s my understanding [ the laws have jumped all over about gold and ownership for some time ] There’s no need for transferring ownership of ‘gold’ from one to another [but there’s more about that as well]. The poem ‘only’ mentions gold… not diamonds, rubies etc., shaped gold, artifacts { be it gold or other wise } etc.

            It would be hard pressed to present a case that a line; “title to the gold” is a legal document for the ‘chest’ and ‘all the goodies.’ lol What about copy rights for the bio? I don’t see mentioned if there is a copy right filed or fenn giving up his ownership to that particular item. He is owner of that work when pen hits paper… a copy right document only allows, ‘proof’ of ownership [the creator of the words] in ‘legal matters’ when present for a law suit.

            I find it hard to think this line is meant as a legal statement, and more to the idea of; help with the solve.
            ~What if there are no legal question~

          • FD poses an interesting possibility that may or may not have any bearing…but still interesting. This has been discussed in the past off and on. I’m not on board with it… however, there is a tricky little statute that is included in most governmental land policies that folks have not discussed[to my knowledge]. I believe it is the ARPA Act of 1979
            In part from memory…conducting activities on the public lands that are not incident, including but not limited to blah blah habitation, blah blah animal maintenance, small trade…. searching for buried treasure, treasure trove, or archaeological specimens…. even coins and scrip less than 100 years old.
            I remember finding this a few years ago during one of the times of discussion. I believe this ACT is in the rules and regulations for BLM as well as all other Federal lands and seems to come with the penalty of Total Forfeiture as well as other sanctions. Best to have a good plan and perhaps a real good story….

          • Double a, so you don’t believe there’s a hint in the first stanza?

            What compelling thing have you found for the word “already” in the poem?

          • I think there’s much more than a hint in the first stanza. It’s your premise that half of the poem is filler that I disagree with. To be clear.

          • The word hint and clue are synonymous. So to argue that the first stanza is reserved for hints or does have a clue is a waste of time in my opinion. I think forrests comments about hints and clues are nothing short of an attempt to muddy the waters with more deceiving wordplay by a master trickster, while he sits back and laughs at a large number of people in this community arguing the definitions of synonyms. Hints and clues in my mind are one in the same. If you done prescribe to that thought train than we simply disagree and that’s ok. But if you do get with that ideology than the argument very quickly boils down to, does stanza one have hints/clues or not.

          • Seeker and ken – From a 41 page PDF file, called, “Extending the Scope of the Antiquities Act”:

            While both sides make strong arguments, the Antiquities Act
            has continued to thrive since the 1976 passage of FLPMA. 165
            Presidents continue to use the Antiquities Act, and Congress has not
            yet explicitly replaced the Act.’ 66 Therefore, FLPMA remains an
            alternative, not a replacement, to the Act.
            2. Archaeological Resource Protection Act
            In 1979, Congress enacted the Archaeological Resource
            Protection Actl67 (ARPA), responding to the Antiquities Act’s
            perceived shortcomings.168 ARPA declares that its goals are to
            secure archaeological sources located on public and Indian land and
            to increase communication and cooperation between governmental
            entities, private collectors, and the archaeological community.169
            While ARPA supplements the Antiquities Act, ARPA lacks too many
            important characteristics to consider it a proper substitute.
            First, ARPA protection is limited to archaeological resources
            and sites, 170 while the scope of the Antiquities Act extends beyond
            archaeological objects.171 Second, ARPA governs resources on
            public and Indian lands,172 but the Antiquities Act asserts control
            over controlled lands in addition to public lands.17 3 For these
            reasons, ARPA supplements the Antiquities Act, but ARPA does not
            alter any of the president’s withdrawal power under the Antiquities
            Act. The Antiquities Act provides greater latitude than ARPA by
            protecting additional scientific and historic objectsl 74 and by
            potentially extending beyond public lands.’75

            I also read something about Wyoming being exempt from the Antiquities Act, established by Teddy Roosevelt in 1906. My hide-y spot is on Montana State land. Was there something different about Montana, also?

          • Double a,
            to be clear, my premise isn’t that half the poem is filler. You might want to get that correct before you disagree with it.

          • yes Lisa… Thanks…my point of the post was to make sure folks understand/stood that there are a lot of little details hidden everywhere in the legalities of anything to do with public and Federal lands. Even Fenn has published stories with the same undertones seemingly implied[ redefine the terms]. Personally… I don’t particularly believe there are ANY issues…at least from the direction I’m coming from./

          • I don’t know but maybe some of the knowledge f was trying to receive from the big expense he gave the lawyers was if he needed some kind of legality clause/phrase in the poem.

          • Fundamental, this quote from your post is what I was responding to.

            Reasons why 3 stanzas aren’t needed?

            I’d say there’s two not needed. The first stanza has a hint. The last two stanzas help with balancing out the first stanza in terms of making it more difficult to spot a vital hint.

            That but right there seems to minimize three of them pretty good. But I don’t really care who’s right or wrong or what point you were exactly trying to convey enough to spam this thread with a back and forth all day. So carry on with your own perspective as though I wasn’t attacking it, because I was not. Simply providing opposing ideas.

            That post was a great opening for me to interject my thoughts and opinion as to where some people may be flawed in their thoughts.

          • Double a, no problem, as I didn’t consider you as attacking me. I just feel I get the chance to be clear about a premise of mine if I think someone is misrepresenting it.

            As such, I clearly said I think it’s two stanzas that aren’t needed (to figure out the clues). Two is not half of the poem.

            You might not be aware that I believe it is important to distinguish between what a hint and what a clue are. That’s because f distinguishes between the two.

            Me saying I think the first stanza has an important hint in it doesn’t infer that I put it in the same category as stanzas 5 and 6. I put the first stanza in the category of stanzas 2-4 in terms of trying to figure out the clues.

            I concur with you that there may not be a need to spend a lot of time on the hunt for synonyms.

          • Fundamental, I’m going to move on from the parts and percentage of the poem we find value in. I disagree with one sentence not being important but who really knows.

            With that said you just touched on another one of my favorite sticking points that people go back and forth on. Just what is the difference between a clue and a hint? I know Forrest speaks of them both but in my opinion he is employing irony to drive home a bigger point to those who are watching closely, pay attention to synonyms, they’re important. And at the same time I feel that f gets a giant chuckle out of those who seriously try to debate the difference while at the same time are missing the big picture and the simple tool of irony that he used to illustrate that picture.

            Do yourself a favor and go to google dictionary, the source he used and look up the words clue and hint. Each ones definition is a reflection of the other and each word is the respective other’s first and most closely related synonym. I would love for someone to find a definition of hint or clue that couldn’t automatically be applied to the other word. It’s like arguing a rock is not a stone and stone is not a rock. You’d be hard pressed to find two words more closely akin to each other.

          • Hi DoubleA — up above you write: “The word hint and clue are synonymous.” As others have posted, Forrest makes a distinction between the two, but then at other times uses the terms interchangeably, so I’m not going to get wrapped around the axle on hint vs. clue. Instead, what matters is if there is critical information in the first stanza. A MW Q&A may help decide this:

            “Dear Forrest, You tell us that we should find ‘where warm waters halt’ before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is: a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe” Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve”

            FF: “No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?”

            Forrest is clearly saying that you cannot figure out the starting point with just “Begin it where warm waters halt” — we are missing an ingredient. If all we *need* to find the treasure is the poem, then that missing ingredient must be in the poem.

            Now while the poem clues are continuous, contiguous and consecutive (thus ruling out a clue in the first stanza), Forrest has made no such promises on the hints. It seems sensible that if we need more information to solve WWWH, Forrest might put it in the first stanza. It doesn’t seem likely that he spent 15 years “architecting” the poem just to waste the first sixth of it on boilerplate setup.

          • Double a, I know what you are saying about the definitions of hint and clue in the dictionary.

            Just hard not to believe f with anything if we can’t even take his two basic building blocks of his Chase- hints and clues and “his” definition of each at face value.

          • I would agree that f’s use of the terms “subtle clues” and “hints”, at different times, have the same meaning.

          • With the exception of stanza #1, which is The Legend for the poem/map, the stanzas make up either clues or hints.

            The hints help with the clues by eliminating themselves from contention as a clue, thereby isolating the correct 9 clues.

            What is so difficult is that hints can and sometimes are architected to look, feel, taste, and read like clues, and actual clues can and are sometimes architected to look, feel, taste, and read as “filler”.

            Very little of the poem is “wasted” if you examine it from this perspective.

          • Hi Bowmarc: your second to last paragraph sounds like the definition of subterfuge to me. But: “*Don’t look for a trick or subterfuge from me, because there aren’t any. f”


            Mr. Hall asks: “Are there any false clues/red herrings intentionally laid within the poem?”

            FF: “No sir Mr. Hall.”

      • Hi Aaron: okay, I’ll bite. If the blaze is so large that it clearly encompasses the chest’s location, the answer to the question is indeed obvious: it’s ZERO. And that answer, while true, would not tell you the chest’s location. You’d need more clues.

        • I see your point. It makes sense to me that blaze is the final clue, but if it were very large, then perhaps not. Thanks

        • That, and we know the blaze can’t be so small that it’s feasible to remove it or destroy it — unless it’s in an inaccessible location (e.g. high up a cliff wall).

      • We would need to know what to do at the blaze. That would be a clue, so stopping at the blaze isn’t likely the last clue. Also, if you are brave and in the wood sounds like something has gotten you closer to the chest. Being now go into the wood, or the cold, or whatever. That would be a clue. And again, if the poem has layers, then the clues are only things on your path referenced through lines in the poem, a whole poem solve would be needed. To think that the answers to these clues falls within lines 5-13, doesn’t leave much room to explain a clue solve.
        And, to newer searchers, that is Zaps opinion, means absolutely nothing. If your solve includes things he seems don’t fit, I wouldn’t put to much into it. IMO Zap, IMO…

      • Simple answer Aaron,
        We don’t need any more clues after the blaze because it’s game over.

      • We’re back to the question;
        I can keep my secret where, and hint of riches new and old.
        IF the “secret where” is the Chest / hidey spot, and the blaze will ‘obviously’ show us a distance to the chest [regardless of 1″ or 10′ etc.] Some things in the poem would mostly be “hints” of riches new and old.

        Is riches new and old about the clue’s references..or.. hinting at how we are think about, what clues could be?

        Remember when fenn was asked, [something about] Brown is in the poem? he replied, Wood is in the poem…
        What do you think he might have been trying to say, or did he just blow off the question?
        Could there be a connection to “Brown” a clue and Wood a hint to that clue?
        Can the; answers he already knows; be a hint for another clue-?- tried and weak related?

        HA! just think of the possible numbers of hints that could be in the poem with 1/2 the poem possibly being hints…lol… solving 9 clues [from 83ish word] doesn’t see that hard when thinking about 83 words having hints involved as well.

        Whatever the case is, I doubt all those words, lines, stanzas, are there just taking up space.

        Please excuse me.. I need to set up the ‘drawing board’ at a 100 yards for target practice.

        • Some of those non clued stanzas could have a hint and some of them could not have a hint.

          If you wrote a poem with hint in one stanza (with the word “hint” glaring at 350,000 people) wouldn’t you balance that out, in terms of difficulty, with a stanza or two that didn’t provide a hint, or clues?

          There are three or four options for what a stanza can contain. Clues, hints, no hints or clues and legalities.

          • FD,

            Options is the key word.

            We have been told the book has hints and a hint helps with clues. But those are seemingly not organized in the book [summarizing a few comment from fenn]

            We read in the poem – “And Hints…”
            OK, I can see this as possibly saying there are hints in the poem.
            We are told there are 9 clues, in consecutive order in the poem to be followed in that order.. clues are contiguous, [organized, right?]

            So, it seems that 1/2 the poems is organized for the clues section. { lets just call that stanzas 2 3 4 ish }

            How organized could the hints be in the poem-?- with 3 stanzas left?
            Could it be as simple as; one stanza hints for a clue stanza? Kinda thinking along Halo’s idea of reading the poem as 5 6 1 2 3 4 to understand which hint stanza might work for a clue stanza, line of thinking.
            2 – 5
            3 – 6
            4 – 1

            lol, that’s one option… because it is odd that the first clue is not at the beginning [of the poem], yet it seems we are told where the clues do being [in stanza 2]
            ‘Thinking’ the idea behind ‘new and old’ is about organizing the hints stanza to the clue stanzas .. idea.
            Another words… the clues are new [ he created them ] the hints are old [references on site]
            LOL are we being told how to organize / categorized the poem and learn from it? In this case the book could help with the idea of certainty – IF we’re thinking the right thoughts.

            I’m just trying to see how a 15 year process of “designing a blueprint” might be read.

          • I’ll ad this ATF for thought, FD.

            ~ I don’t want to broaden the *clues and hints* I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility *related to the winning solve.*

          • Good thoughts, Seeker.

            One idea I can add is if searchers think f is capable of crafting his poem with just the simple concept of an important hint in the first stanza leads to the first clue and the clues end in stanza 4.

            The other clues hinge off of the first clue. And it’s that simple in appearance but still difficult to solve.

            If f is capable of this simple architecture or process, then he doesn’t need additional hints or clues in the last 2 stanzas. Sometimes less is more.

      • Aaron, maybe we need to think what he meant with ‘obvious’. Where will it be obvious, while solving or in the field?

        The problem searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue. If you can’t find the first clue you don’t have anything. People driving down the street looking for a blaze, because THAT’S ONE OF THE CLUES, but you can’t start in the MIDDLE OF THE POEM and find the treasure.

        Does this one mean that ‘If you’ve been wise and found the blaze’ is still half way the poem but not enough information to find the treasure? That’s one of the clues but not the last clue. That’s one of the clues but still half way through the process. The blaze is not the last clue, meaning it can be figure out from home and found on Google Earth.

        Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?- becky

        Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.f

        • Oz, it is my current opinion that the blaze is the last clue and the location of the chest becomes obvious once finding it in the field.

          • Aaron,

            If you think there are no more clues after the blaze, you might want to take a very hard look at the last stanza, because there are clues and hints, such as “your effort will be worth the cold” and the other, “in the wood”.

            I truly do not understand why some folks dismiss the 6th stanza, just because the 4th stanza says, “your quest to cease”. With the very first line of the 6th stanza says, “So hear me all and listen good,” is telling us to pay close attention to the following words, because there are clues where the chest is hidden.

            If one IMO, does ignore the last stanza, one will have no idea where to look and wander around aimlessly searching for the chest.

            Just Say’n

          • FENN: Well I worked on the poem on and off for a few years. Because I had to change it. I thought I was gonna die. And so, the initial part of my poem said something like, “Leave my bones alone. Take the chest and go in peace.” But then when I got well, I ruined the story. So I had to change that and I’ve said before that that poem was really written by an architect. EVERY WORD IS PLACED IN THERE STRATEGICALLY, AND YOU CAN’T IGNORE ANY OF THE NOUNS IN THAT POEM.

            Only two simple questions:

            What does strategically means to you???

            If you ignore 3 stanzas, how many nouns are you ignoring when he said YOU CAN’T???

          • I got your back Aaron,
            The blaze is obviously the last clue for some of us including me.

            They may never see it this way because their brains are wired differently than logical thinkers.

            I too agree, we are not wasting the rest of the poem away because we see hints in the other stanzas to help with the clues that are in stanzas 2-4.

            Maybe I should have joined your team but then again we may be the only 2 members.

          • I’m with you brother.
            “blaze 9th clue crew team of two”
            I’m sure there are many more here but I’ve only seen a few.
            Logic at it’s best!
            Frig the rest!

          • Hey Aaron, that last one was for those who discount 3 stanzas. I know you didn’t.

          • Aaron;

            You say: ” To me each sentence looks like one clue from Begin to blaze.”

            I never was too good in English class but I think I know what a sentence is.

            Sentence #1
            Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.

            Sentence #2
            Put in below the home of Brown.

            Sentence #3
            From there it’s no place for the meek, The end is drawing nigh; There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.

            (Semicolons do not represent a full stop at the end of a sentence, as periods do; rather, they’re like the “yellow light” of punctuation marks: they signal a pause between one sentence and the next. You slow down, then stop at the end of the second sentence. Rule 1.)

            Sentence #4
            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down, your quest to cease, but tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go in peace.

            So, only four sentences, not nine by my count. JDA

          • Hi Aaron, my post:

            “Blaze=9th clue is likely to be as correct as 9 sentences = 9 clues.”

            was just my backhanded way of saying that (IMO) the blaze is not the 9th clue. Everyone knows 9 sentences = 9 clues is false.

          • Zap, JDA called me out on this too. I meant to say lines. 9 sentences definitely do not equal 9 lines. Also, as JDA pointed out there are not 9 sentences between Begin and blaze.

          • Aaron, zap is talking about the whole 9 sentences in the poem and how those are not the nine clues. Just like the blaze is not the last clue.

          • Gotcha, thanks. Busy multitasking and reading and misread that. Look all we all really know is WWsH is the first clue. I’ve changed my solve and clues multiple times, and will continue until the chest is found. Like the majority of us, I could be wrong. That is just what I am going with right now with a current solution.

        • oz10 – Forrest wrote, “dwell”:


          Was that a reference to this original commercial establishment, Dwelle’s Grayling Inn, serving the original stagecoach route along the Madison River? And was the new route, ‘straight forward’ on Yellowstone Avenue, that “street” Forrest mentioned in that quote? Or, maybe, Forrest was referring to Boundary Street being in the “middle” of the Poem?

          The Big Brown trout in the landscape, across the Madison River from the new Riverside stage stop at the Barns Holes, is Clue #2 in my solve. Clues #3 and #4 with keywords ‘meek’ and ‘nigh’ parallel the course of Boundary Street and the Boundary Trail, which continue ‘straight forward’, to end at the ‘ever drawing nigh’ backwardS bike $ blaze in the Madison River at Baker’S Hole.

          You can’t “drive” down Boundary Street, to get to that blaze. No motorized vehicles. That fits.

          And is Becky Thatcher from “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” that “rascal”? Thinking about a 15-30 minute bike ride from the FennHaven Cabins to Baker’S Hole, and that secret cave, where Forrest’s family used to hide their gear over the Winter. Where’s Injun Joe? Is he hidden in that “Mummy Joe” scrapbook?

          All IMO.

      • Hi KK: I’ve got the quote you need:

        Outside: Live Bravely (8/11/2015): “The problem searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue. If you can’t find the first clue you don’t have anything. People driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure.”

  12. I got one!
    What in the BLUE BLAZES are y’all talking about here?
    Ever look at it that way?
    Just my imagination again at work.

    • You remind me of the woman that was drinking from the water fountain in the park that saw the big W.

    • wwwamericana – YeS!:

      MW ~ “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.”

      On my topo map, my backwardS bike $ blaze is formed by the ‘blueprint’ color of the Madison River running through “IT”.

      And for my namesake, QE1’s, efforts:

      ‘best adjust’ > ‘Bess’d add just’

      See also: her Act of Trover. And ‘justice’ for all. Maybe even for me.

  13. “During a tempest encountered homeward-bound from the Mediterranean, a grizzled petty-officer, one of the two captains of the forecastle, dying at night in his hammock, swung in the sick-bay under the tiered gun-decks of the British Dreadnought, 98, wandering in his mind, though with glimpses of sanity, and starting up at whiles, sings by snatches his good-bye and last injunctions to two messmates, his watchers, one of whom fans the fevered tar with the flap of his old sou’-wester. Some names and phrases, with here and there a line, or part of one; these, in his aberration, wrested into incoherency from their original connection and import, he involuntarily derives, as he does the measure, from a famous old sea-ditty, whose cadences, long rife, and now humming in the collapsing brain, attune the last flutterings of distempered thought.”

    Just a bit of the Classics for y’all to read in your spare time.

    • Thanks Americana

      But I prefer Melvilles poem that starts like this:
      We Rovers Bold to the Land of Gold
      Over the bowling billows are gliding
      Eager to toil for the Golden spoil
      And every hardship biding.

      It just gets better and better as it goes on. 🙂

      • Oh and don’t forget this one, Pauley……..

        “The better part of the man is soon ploughed into the soil for compost. By a seeming fate, commonly called necessity, they are employed, as it says in an old book, laying up treasures which moth and rust will corrupt and thieves break through and steal. It is a fool’s life, as they will find when they get to the end of it, if not before.”

        Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I have always hated housework – especially dusting.

  14. Zaphod I agreed that the blaze is NOT the last clue. I think “Tarry Scant with Marvel gaze” is the last clue, but I have not yet figured out how to translate that phrase into a physical location. Have you any thoughts on that?

    • Hi Crumb Cruncher: I believe there is at least one clue in that line of the poem, but I leave open the possibility that it isn’t the last clue. I have trouble coming up with clear rules for deciding if something is a clue or a hint, particularly because I feel there is something so important in the first stanza that I would have felt more comfortable calling it a clue rather than a hint (because it clearly gets me closer to the treasure chest). But evidently Forrest doesn’t think so.

      Take a line like “Just heavy loads and water high”: suppose these two things are co-located, or even different descriptions of the same place? Is that one clue or two? Without clear answers to questions like these, counting clues is of little use, since miscounting could easily lead you astray.

      • Good point Zaphod, there is so much that is vague about the poem that it is difficult to count clues, that’s just how my bias controls me and my solve. In my view, which is very possibly wrong, ” but tarry scant . . .” is the clue #9 and the rest of the poem MAY contain some hints. But then again, I haven’t found it.

      • Interesting question you posed there, Zap. I’ll take it a bit further and ask if that whole stanza, because of the semicolon, is to be counted as one singlular clue? My thought on it is that it is one whole clue because the information on either side of the semicolon is a description of the same place, just described slightly differently on each side.

        • Bowmarc: certainly a possibility. Reduced to symbolic logic, the whole stanza could be interpreted as:

          NOT A, BUT B; NOT C, BUT D AND E

          Could be describing a fork in the route: A and C correspond to the wrong direction, B, D and E the right one. If so, then A & C by themselves wouldn’t be clues (because they don’t take you in the direction of the treasure). And if B, D & E are describing different features of the same landmark/waypoint, then the whole stanza could be just one clue with a couple hints.

      • Zap said…

        I have trouble coming up with clear rules for deciding if something is a clue or a hint, particularly because I feel there is something so important in the first stanza that I would have felt more comfortable calling it a clue rather than a hint (because it clearly gets me closer to the treasure chest). But evidently Forrest doesn’t think so.

        For me, it’s no problem finding something so important in the first stanza and still call it a hint. That relies on it not breaking f’s definition of a hint which Zap appropriately mentioned: it can’t get us closer to the tc.

        But Zap is missing something. You can’t break f’s rule for a clue if the clues in the poem haven’t arrived yet. You know where clue 1 is in the poem. Anything before clue 1 can get you closer to the tc (like from your home) but can’t get you closer to the tc than clue 1.

        Otherwise, f would have called that so important thing in stanza 1 clue 1.

        • I’m my mind stanza 1 as a whole is a hint that helps with the first clue. It only gets us closer to the treasure by helping with the clue that gets us closer. This fits FF’s definition of hint vs clue.

        • Hi FD: just for clarification, I can understand why what I’m using from the first stanza would be considered a hint: it doesn’t uniquely identify a specific place, whereas the answer to “Begin it where warm waters halt” (as a standalone line) does. Neither of them by themselves tells you where to start, but the two working together do. Initially I felt that it was a marriage of nearly equal partners, but one is vague but unique, while the other is specific but ambiguous. (All in my opinion, of course.)

          • That does seem reasonable in thought, Zap.
            Whatever anyone wants to call the information .. clues vs. hints or whci number of clues they are.. it seems at least two pieces of information [ lets just call them clues 1 & 2] must/should be married by some means to understand what is now expected of the searcher.

            IF one is standing at WWsH the idea of canyon down is information to look to. This could eliminate a 360 view down to a small area to see what is needed to be seen. That area could hold the reference of hoB.
            NF,BTFTW is nothing more than explaining hoB is not far way, but don’t go. If you do, you walked too far from your ending goal… you left the poem… the poem’s method of proceeding. Not our preconceived idea of any old treasure hunt.
            And IMO, that might start right at misinterpreting the words; follow and lead, in the intro to the poem.

    • Oh if it the LAST CLUE, then I can have my cake and eat it too!
      I do so hope you are right CC.

      • Each clue is a location. So tarry scant with marvel gaze I think describes the hiding spot to within a few feet, as I see it as the last clue. I’ve thought it could be a black rock with (even though I know Fenn pronounces tarry like HARRY, as a verb when he reads it). I wouldn’t put it past him to include a double meaning. However, I’ve also thought of it as a verb, but that is where the command isn’t as descriptive of a physical location.

        • The above is me, “crumb cruncher” I’m not used to how this works yet, I have not posted a lot. Long-time lurker.

    • CC;

      Question – If Tarry scant and marvel gaze” is the last clue – Why did Forrest even bother writing stanzas #% and 6? 57 wasted words, and yet Forrest says the following:

      “Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
      There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is RISKY TO DISCOUNT ANY OF THEMins where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.” f
      Seems like you are discounting at least 57 of them, and if you are also discounting stanza #1 that makes 82 out of 166 words – that is almost half.

      Seems to me like a big risk – but good luck to ya – playin’ with only half of the deck – 🙂 (82/166) – JDA

      • Am I the only one that sees this statement as a contradiction?
        “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. ”

        So, some of the words in the poem will not help you to find the treasure.
        But, it’s risky to discount any of them.
        This tells me you have to be risky and DISCOUNT some of them.
        Fenn was a risk taker and if you have any chance on finding the treasure, you better be risky yourself especially knowing which words in the poem will not help you finding the treasure.

        • I do agree with you here , Jake. It’s risky to discount any word as being helpful. But there are those that aren’t . If there are those that are not helpful, perhaps their inclusion as a relevance is the opposite of helpful? Meaning , maybe the reading of a road sign incorrectly precipitates a wrong turn?

          IMO .

        • Too funny ,Jake. One doesn’t need to erase nor not include a word that may not be helpful. It’s really not important, in my opinion, to figure such words out. That’s a bit too rigid within the nature of poetry , I think anyways. There’s just secondaries ifor importance of words in meaning when rhyming is the style prescribed. . There are the main intended word that needs a rhymer word that fits , be it somewhat concise but allows for a more openended meaning in perceptual application. Brown is more important that Down. So, by this , Down can be a direction or as such like “down town”. Down is a versatile word that rhymes with the all importantant word oas the main purpose/focus word -Brown. Secondary words are inherently less rigid than the main word that needs a rhyme word that follows it ,and that word also needs to be somewhat applicable. Driving may be risky, so where a seat belt . There’s always a calculating risk.

          • I think the importance of “down” in the poem is somewhat
            underestimated, particularly with respect to confirmation.

          • Alsetenash: “Brown is more important that Down”
            I don’t think that’s true.

            “Secondary words are inherently less rigid than the main word that needs a rhyme word that follows it”
            I don’t get it.

            “Driving may be risky,”
            Driving is risky.

        • Jake,
          IMO, Forrest is implying the entire poem is important to discern the “correct solve.” F used the phrase “finding the treasure” in his response to Phil and, IMO, F’s comment resonates with the notion that one or more poem snippets are relevant to KEEPING the treasure. Of course, it’s always been about parsing the poem per F’s intent because, obviously, if we’re unable to parse per his intent, we have no hope of interpreting and deducing per his intent. Wash, rinse, repeat comes to mind.

          You wrote: “…especially knowing which words in the poem will not help you finding the treasure.”

          Yes, that is, IMO, precisely the value in parsing the entire poem. I will add that if F had answered in the context of “finding and keeping the treasure”, every word in the poem is important – but that’s just me and I’m simply guessing like everyone else.

          (original) Joe

      • JDA – keep in mind that Forrest likes to take risks, is a joker, and likes to write poetry. He is also a master of subterfuge.
        Maybe it’s time to “cut the deck.”

      • Jake: going to back up JDA here. It’s one thing to discount a word here or there. To wholesale dismiss an entire stanza isn’t just risky, it’s foolhardy. But to willfully ignore over 60% of the poem (by assuming all clues are between “Begin it” and “the blaze”) is, well, brazen. 15 years of architecting, and over 3/5ths of the poem contains no clues? Why would you do that?

        • I agree with Zap and JDA.
          Further, I think of the poem as a greeting card that, when opened, reveals a 3-dimensional paper sculpture of sorts.
          I also think that if we are to begin at “Begin,” which is the first word in the second stanza, then perhaps the end is the last word of the first stanza.

        • Why would I do that?
          Back in early 2016 I decided to throw everything out the window and start fresh with just the poem. No places, no maps or marrying. Nothing but the poem and figure out which lines, word(s) and phrases could be considered a clue as in a place, a thing at a place and/or directions or actions.

          The 2 most glaring simple words in the poem is “begin” and “cease”. I used to be in the camp that “tarry scant”, “marvel gaze” was a clue as well as “weak”, “effort worth the cold”, “in the wood” etc…

          When you break down the poem only in its simplest form, it becomes obvious what’s going to get you closer to the treasure and what are hints with the places, things at places which I think there are hints in stanza 1, 2, 4, 5 & 6.

          Not a waste of the poem as a whole as many of you suggest. I just have all 9 clues starting at BIWWWH and the blaze is the last one and the most important one, with hints to help out in all the other stanzas.

          When I was done figuring this out, then I married the 1st clue to a place and so on using info from his books, website and other writings and interviews. Call it brazen or whatever you will but it’s just plain simple.

      • Yes, JDA, it is entirely possible that I am missing some valuable words, but in my view, Stanza 1 is an intro, stanza 5 contains no helpful information, and the last stanza is a conclusion and advertisement to generate public interest, which may include hints to the already written clues. Why would he place hints after “just take the chest and go in peace” if all the clues are in consecutive order? I don’t think they are necessarily one clue per line either in the preceding lines like Zaphod alluded to, but I think they are consecutive. Cheers.

        • The above is me, “crumb cruncher” I’m not used to how this works yet, I have not posted a lot. Long-time lurker.

  15. backwards bicycle thinking is key. Allowing yourself to think differently. Who are the men cheering at space x? Hey dal, you dont approve my posts, would you like for me to stop posting? If not, could you instruct me on how to change my icon pic?

  16. The first stanza is the preface. As with ‘riches new and old’, the poem tells two tales. The ‘old’ is a precious memory from his youth. The ‘new’ tells us how to rediscover the journey and find the physical treasure. IMO of course.

  17. Double a and Fundy;

    I have been following your arguments – pro and con – on both sides of the fence. It is almost like one person saying that the side of the coin with the head is what makes it a coin – While the other contends that it is what is imprinted on the back side of the coin that makes it a coin. Both are right – and both are wrong. It takes both sides of a coin to make it a coin.

    A hint is a hint – If one can figure out what that is.
    A clue is a clue – If one can figure out what that is.

    There ARE clues in the poem – 9 of them. How do we know? Because Forrest has told us that there are 9.

    There are hints in the poem (No amount stated) – How do we know? Because Forrest has told us that there are hints both in the poem and in TTOTC.

    It is up to each of us to decide what is a clue – and what those clues are and
    It is up to each of us to decide what is a hint – and what those hints are – If there are any.

    This is an argument that can never be decided – period. Even IF (when) Indulgence is found, the finder may or may not disclose HOW he/she solved the poem. The hints and clues used by the finder may or may not be the clues and hints that Forrest had envisioned when he wrote the poem – So, the answer to the question – What is a clue, and what is a hint may very well never be actually known. Just the musings of an OLD man with limited brain cells working – How much wasted energy is lost if one lets the kettle boil too long? HUMMM???? JDA

    • JDA, can you explain where you came up with this…”Because Forrest has told us that there are hints both in the poem and in TTOTC.”

    • JDA ~ You also said; ~’The hints and clues used by the finder may or may not be the clues and hints that Forrest had envisioned when he wrote the poem – So, the answer to the question – What is a clue, and what is a hint may very well never be actually known.’

      Objection! your Honor; How in the world could a finder, not figure out the clues-?- the way fenn envision and find th… um, err… never mind. I withdraw my objection.

      • Hi Seeker;

        To answer your objection, even though you withdrew it.

        Let’s say that the finder said that clue #1 was:
        “Begin it where warm waters halt
        and take it in the canyon down
        Not far, but too far to walk.”

        And Clue #2 was “Put in below the home of Brown.

        And yet, Forrest had decided that Clue #1 was:
        “Begin it where warm waters halt
        And take it in the canyon down.”

        And Clue #2 was:
        “Not far, but too far to walk.
        Put in below the home of Brown.”

        According to Forrest, the clues had not been followed consecutively, as he saw the clues in his mind – and yet, the finder was able to get past the3 first stanza, and on to stanza #2.

        Just an example. Maybe I should withdraw my “statement for the record” since the objection had already been withdrawn. 🙂 JDA

        • I’m reminded of Halo’s Q&A…

          ~ didn’t count the clues until the poem was done.

          JDA… What you describe would be the clues are being followed consecutively. The only difference is what the counting is for.

          It probably wouldn’t make a difference if stanza one was considered a single clue by the searcher as long as the ‘information in that stanzas’ still plays out as fenn designed it.

          I’ll go out on a limb and say; all the clues ‘counts by numbers’ might be the downfall of it all.
          IF this is an observational style solution. I could say… all the information contained in stanza 1 is going to result in a single thing [process] to do at a single place.
          So, I could say it is all one clue, because all makes up one thing.

          OK Here’s an example; I have done this before, but it will be slightly different.

          What sport is played in schools, if one becomes a pro at it they can make a lot of money, and the game starts with a T. ?
          [there will be an additional piece of information added] Consider this stanza 1 example.]
          It a sport
          Can make money if really good at it
          The game starts with a T.

          These could be considered 3 clues. The thing is; game and sport are the same, so is it one clues?
          Does; make a lot of money help?
          Not really, but it can help by not going down rabbit holes… like thinking “T’iddlywinks is the answer… because the game start with the ‘letter’ T

          Only that is an illusion. It was never indicated the game or sports *name* start with a T.

          Now I’ll add a stand alone piece of information.
          ~The came has four letters.
          Again, many would automatically try to find a four letter name for a spot that starts with the letter T.

          With the add piece of information, is that four clues, or four pieces of information resulting into a ‘single’ clue? ……….GOLF… for a stanza?

          IT doesn’t matter as long as the information is obtained in the order presented and understood in that order. It gets easier as you progress through the information. But there is thinikng needed and not jumping to a first thought and run with it.
          You can’t let the T be what you think it is, a letter.. because it’s meant as TEE.

          {obvious this is a better riddle when told of, then in written form}

          So your description and mine are saying the same thing.. but all of it *HAD to be followed in the order presented*…
          fenn version of how the information plays out.

          If a piece is dismissed or misunderstood… it doesn’t matter if you are at the “T” if you don’t understand “why” you are there.

        • JDA,
          It sounds as though someone will stumble, happen upon the treasure and we don’t need to get the clues right in his mind but our own mind we do even though they don’t match.

          “and yet, the finder was able to get past the3 first stanza, and on to stanza #2.”


      • JDA, I hope you’re not getting into discussions again about what is a hint and what is a clue, if I can’t…

        And I haven’t withdrawn my objection above…

        Can you explain where you came up with this?…”Because Forrest has told us that there are hints both in the poem and in TTOTC.”

        • FD

          Forrest has never said that there are or are not hints in the poem. The closest he came was in the following:


          “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the searcher. Good luck in the search.” f

          Another quote” ” The clues are in the poem and my book has hints that will help with the clues.” f

          So, If the poem has all of the information that one needs, and there are hints in the book that are not placed deliberately to help the searcher – by induction, one CAN say that the hints have to be in the poem, which is part of the book.

          So, I am probably not right in saying that Forrest has said that there are hints in the poem. He has never said that – he has only “Hinted” at that – 🙂 JDA

          • JDA, thanks for the reply. See now why there’s nothing wrong with discussing hints and clues. 🙂

          • JD. I do remember him saying there are hints in the poem also. If I can find it I will post it or
            Tell you were it is. Also keep in mind that only 9 clues. Given that And the length of the poem and not ignoring any of the words you might think there has to be some.
            I m quite confident that there hints.
            IMO. GH

          • Grasshopper;

            Good luck with finding where Forrest said that there are hints in the poem – I do not remember it – but who knows?

            For me, Stanza #1 is a prelude, and not a clue – So, I guess that you could say Stanza #1 has at least one hint in it. I see the remaining stanzas as clues – but that is just me and how I see the poem – JMO – JDA

    • JDA,

      I guess you’ve never played the game Clue. That is a good exercise for what clues are, even a child playing the game learns that. (I said this in jest) 🙂

      Hints IMO helps guide one towards a clue. Such as “take it in the canyon down”

      IMO a clue is based upon a fact that is given in a way that comes out as being vague when written or spoken of. Such as “no place for the meek”

      Just Say’n

      • CharlieM;

        Here we go again, what is a clue, and what is a hint?

        By your statement you believe that “take it in the canyon down is a hint. I, on the other hand see it as a statement that is part of a larger clue.

        Clue #1 – for me is:
        “Begin it where warm waters halt
        and take it in the canyon down,
        Not far, but too far to walk.”

        There is no punctuation at the end of the halt line, so to me, “and take it in the canyon down,” is a part of a (not yet completed) thought. The completed thought ends with the word walk. JMO
        So, I question how an incomplete thought, found in the middle of a clue, can be considered a hint, and not part of the clue. JMO – JDA

      • Hi CharlieM: if the difference between a hint and a clue is that “a clue will point you toward the treasure chest,” while a hint “will just help you with the clues,” then if taking “it in the canyon down” is moving you along toward the treasure chest, couldn’t that be a clue by Forrest’s definition? If the clues are supposed to be contiguous, it seems to me that the route itself is needed as a clue to maintain that continuity. Otherwise, don’t you have a bunch of discontinuous (non-touching) points?

        • Zap,

          “it in the canyon down” is a blatant hint that leads one towards the next clue. A clue that is vague is NFBTFTW.

          I’d think that I would know better as to what a hint or clue is, or I’ve been wrong over the years in my line of work. I’ll stick with what I wrote above.

          Just Say’n

          • CharlieM: “I’ve been wrong over the years in my line of work.”
            Admission is the 1st step.

            And take it the canyon down – which gives action & direction, you are moving physically towards the next clue (unless your Seeker) getting closer to the chest.
            How could this not be a clue?
            Looks like you’re wrong again.

        • Well, take it in the canyon “up” would be in the opposite direction (assuming that was a possible choice), so I’d say it’s pretty critical to have that information, else you’d never solve the next clue.

          As for NF, BTFTW, I’m in agreement with you that it’s a clue. But it ain’t vague: it precisely specifies a place … in my opinion, of course. It is because all the early two-clue solvers (2012) thought it was just some vague distance that no one made any more progress for over 5 years.

          • Zap,

            The only way one can determine what is TFTW is where is BTHOB, In order know Brown is to find it, then determine specifically where below is. The next clue NPFTM does help in specifying the exact spot of BTHOB. Now you can determine what is TFTW.

            Each clue IMO help with the previous clues and the following clues.

          • In my solution to the poem, NFBTFTW is not a distance, it is a logic problem whose solution specifies a geographic location. “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it?” Yes, indeed they are. 😉

          • Hello Zap… are you still using steganography for deciphering the clues? Or, have you moved on to another avenue?

          • Hi ken: I used stego only for the first clue. I figure Forrest isn’t a 1-trick-pony — different clues will require different techniques, otherwise solving one clue would domino to all the rest (which clearly never happened).

  18. Architect? Building Blocks? Hints & Clues?
    Geez this is getting so dang frustrating; definitely not “child’s play.”
    Oh how I wish I could look thru the windows of his mind.

    I have a question for y’all – if Forrest could go back to the beginning when he first decided to secret his treasure and write his poem, do you think he would do it the same way or do you think he would change it up? Don’t you just wonder if he isn’t truly amazed as to the number of ripples he created in the water when he first threw out that stone.

    • Hi www, I think he has said that the poem fulfilled its purpose and that he is happy with it. Something to that effect…

      It amuses him that we are all stomping on the ants while the elephants run by.

    • I think he would do it the same way. It has been very successful in my estimation, it has not been found for 10 years to date. If that’s what he wanted, to get people into the mountains, I would say he succeeded. There are a lot of very smart people searching, and with no apparent success to date.

    • www;

      This should answer your question:
      “I am sure you are aware The Thrill of the Chase has captured many hearts and ambitions of those who have read your book. Are you happy with the way the search for your hidden treasure is going? Do you have any regrets; or more importantly, would you like to see anything different in the ways people are chasing the prize?
      It was fortunate that two writers, Irene Rawlings and Margie Goldsmith, liked my book enough to review it in national publications. Those stories gave it ignition. The hidden treasure story in the book provided enough propulsion to keep it in the public view long enough for word of mouth traffic to broaden its desire across America and beyond. I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.” f Hope that that answers your question – JDA

      • I like this, JDA, because it fits my bias. I interpret this to suggest the answers to the poem riddles can be found by using a map or GE based on words from TTOTC.

        Further to this comment, I feel like “clous” or rather points of interest worth visiting because they are tourist attractions, would hold a higher value because a clou is a nail is a clove is one of nine clues.

        • E.C. Waters – Good one! Nailed “IT”, IMO. The first ‘clou’, I mean.

          See also: Clovis points. And the Fenn Cache.

          Still want to find that ‘Fenn Cache’, where Forrest’s family stored their gear over the Winter…

        • I read it as what f didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps…even though at a different time he says excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. Huh?

          • Hey-O, Fun-D

            “What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps . . . ”

            More than a few searchers have read that statement to mean (paraphrased)

            ‘What *surprised and alarmed me* was . . . people . . . started searching maps . . . ”

            JD above provided the complete passage, which is mostly about how pleased ff is with the attention and reception his endeavor has received.

            So I read that one passage to mean instead (paraphrased)

            ‘What *surprised and delighted me* was how many people immediately started searching maps . . .”

            In other words, he was pleased that a whole lot of people immediately started doing exactly the right thing.


          • Jak,

            I think so too.
            When we take the ‘other’ ATFs into account, it sure seems like having a map / GE is very helpful with analyzing and thinking.

            Now, how about the comment;
            Try and marry the clueS to A place on a map.. I’ll add GE as well.. cuz fenn did.

            Does it mean clueS to placeS?
            I personally don’t think so. I think it means ‘his place’.. thinking the same way as the other comment “surprised”
            Or Not ready to say.. comment.
            Or an 80 yr old is not going down and up and down… comment.
            Or shouldn’t take anything of reservations .. comment
            Or I looked up words and definitions of words … comment
            Or certainty of the location beforehand, for the path to be direct.. warning comment.
            OR… well, you git the gist.

          • “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic **location of each clue** it would be a map to the treasure. f” (Asterisks mine.)

            “Each clue” rather than “the clues.”

          • Seeker…your point is well taken and one that has been run over by the semi one too many times. I’ve looked at some of these comments from just about every angle possible. Keeping an open mind is often difficult while taking one or more ideas to the next step and trying to see how one may interpret what Fenn is trying to say exactly. Some of his comments…especially his safety directions are loud and clear and yet there seems to be more than one way to look at the majority of the rest. The comment Zap posted…combined with the one you posted seems to negate the position you are taking [A place]. The checks and balances we have repeatedly spoken about certainly have to make sense if they are to be of any help at all. Fundy’s position is a common one as well… I’ve looked at that one from that perspective as well. Then again…when checked and balanced with the many comments about good tools[re; maps] this one also balances out to negate Fundy’s comment as truly making sense in the long run. da dum de dum Pop goes the weasel….

          • Ken,
            I posted before I saw your post.

            I’ll ask you the same as I asked Zap.

            What ‘method’ of “follow” are you using?

          • Seeker: if you are only “following” the clues in your mind or with your eyes, can you give an example of that sort of solution where the order of the clues matters? (And the impossibility of solving and following the clues out of order?) The Tyler Q&A doesn’t seem to make sense for a solution that doesn’t involve point-to-point physical movement through the clues:

            “Dear Mr. Fenn, Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car? Thank you. ~ Tyler Y.”

            FF: “Yes I did Tyler, it was the most direct route. f”

          • Zap,
            I gave an example in response to FD post.
            You can check it there so I don’t have to post it again in full.
            The Q&A you mentioned
            talks about the hide [ a spot ]…
            fenn’s movements could have been [example]
            Left his car.. walked to a location all the clues are located from WWsH.. [ be that size area what it is ].. followed the clues by an observation method of “following” [ it’s our job to figure out why this is needed, and should be explained in the poem.. I think it is ]

            In this idea / method…fenn might have needed to follow is own *information* / clues to locate as place within his place her knew he wanted the chest to be. He basically found an object to use as the blaze… just like we are told to have been wise and found it.

            I don’t care if the chest is at it, or the blaze directs the searcher to a near by spot… Fenn then walks the same route out to his car. The only reason some would think this is not a plausible idea is… “their” method conflicts with this method.

            “Once you hid the chest..” doesn’t ask if how fenn went about the method of following his own clues. It only asked about chest spot.
            Add in another ATF ~ ‘walked less than a few miles’ when he hide the chest… that distance can be of two round trips to the location of where all the “references” can be seen from ~ from WWsH, and back to the car.

            A very plausible scenario.. unless you’re a diehard; stomping mode method only. Those folks, with that method, will just disagree with this method.. no matter how convincing it might be.

          • Seeker: okay, fair enough: you do account for walking, so there are at least two locations: the parking location, and WWWH (and presumably the rest of the clues). So the two-clue-solvers in your scenario are at WWWH and identify the next clue (e.g. canyon down). But then, in your opinion, they make the critical error of heading toward said canyon instead of staying put, and as a result go right on by clues 3-9.

            But every year, new people are arriving at the starting point. You’ve been championing your stay-put idea for many years, and I think you can see where I’m going with this. You would think by now that one of those WWWH-solvers might have come across your idea — even taking into consideration that only a fraction of BOTG searchers have ever visited Dal’s site. But perhaps not. If anyone ~is~ trying that approach, they apparently aren’t fairing any better than the clue-stompers.

          • Seeker… if you are only looking for a catchpoint that you can infinitely tell everyone their unwillingness to contemplate or agree with your lack of movement… you’ve found it. I’ve actually used that idea as I explained before and have mostly eliminated that [method] from my repertoire in search mode. Again…in order to have any of the ATF help at all…they need to support each other and move a searcher closer or in the correct direction…I think.
            A searcher could definitely go down the path you are suggesting{I did for awhile}… however…just like thinking it is in water… I believe you will have to move along eventually. In your case…maybe not unless you splurge and take a vacation.
            Follow; synonyms… pursue, chase, displace, ensue
            Follow; go or come after[a person or thing proceeding ahead] move or travel behind….go in the same direction, as a road or path, do the same thing
            These definitions seem likely if an open minded person were to check and balance all comments…read the words in the poem and observe the fact that we are following directions from a map, out in a natural setting and most likely not feeding quarters into Takeitin [made in China] viewing machine from the local overlook.

          • I think the short and sweet summary of a plausible search method Seeker is trying to describe is that if WWWH is an all encompasssing clue (as in YA GOTS NUTTIN IFINS YA AIN’T GOTS DA FIRST CLUE SONNYBOY), folks can get the first couple of clues by being AT the WWWH locale, and then leave the WWWH locale because they want to stomp out all the remaining clues TO someplace rather than IN someplace, hence leave the poem and have no chance of correctly solving it. Such a scenario certainly allows for the 200 to 500 foot people to be that close by only solving the first couple of clues. Plausible in my book.

            But this scenario goes against the grain of seemingly every other talked about search theory out there, so it will likely get dismissed before taking several moments to actually think about it, or more likely, just outright ignored as my buddy Aaron recently mentioned.

          • Ken,

            Lets start with your comment; *In your case…maybe not unless you splurge and take a vacation.*
            Answer is, I don’t know where the clues are located. Plain and simple. I’m not even sure if I have the right ideas for any type of WWsH.
            How do you test a theory without those certainties? Fenn seemingly answer this idea… if ya don’t have it nailed down, don’t go.
            But folks here think the only way to be serious about being a searcher is, failed attempts after failed attempt working on guesses.

            The other thing you talk about is word definition for follow. Yep, That is some usage of the word. The one I have posted is also a usage of the word.
            I have also posted [ and sometimes with references to a dictionary it was found in/ or Google ] “Take it in” and many other words that imply, looking, gazing, viewing, observing… “understand” by observing etc.

            The catch is, and Zap highlights the thought in his post, … we can assume someone may have attempted this. But that is still an assumption. What we have seen [ as far as methods / searches I have read and chatted about with many others ] None have had an observational type solve from WWH.. I’d like to see any solve posted that has some kind of observational solve from start to finish. Even in theory.

            In all fairness, not all searchers post either, but I have not seen one, have you?

            Now to the nit and grit of stanza 3.
            I still see movement between hopeful clues from other searchers posting / solves. I think stanza three is complete different to those ideas. I think it give information on how to plan for the solve.

            Now, be fair and tell me, have you ever seen any solve that could be closely related to that idea… I haven’t.

            And back to my point… Even if someone stood at WWH, and in the direction of the canyon, and found a very hopeful hoB [ as explained in my idea ] What did the do next?? Because again, every solve I have seen has folks moving through hopeful section that seem to fit to stanza 3 as all being land features.

            I’m not too sure stanza 3 information is about land features at all.

            IF– this is about observing clues fenn created.. isn’t that the same as looking at a map to see where they are?
            The difference is… the method of following them. I said before… it would not surprise some have seen ‘and’ been at hoB. [ but in an observational solve, going to it is the wrong thing to do ].
            Once there, they are almost force to have another place to go to.

            This is what I call, not following the instructions. IMO they are try to still overlap stomping and observation.

            C’mon.. fenn stated; I can tell you, an 80 years old is not going down and up and down a canyon…
            So, the first thought in many searchers mind is, they must go around it. Or you are already in it. I think either of those force unknowns into play. Such as creating a distance.

            Fenn also said; if you know home of Brown, why be concerned about WWsH [ reverse engineering Q&A ].

            The question is, Can we “know” hoB without being at WWsH? Could he dare say that??
            THE clues he says if we don’t have.. we have nothing. But seemingly IF we know a later clue, it’s ok to skip the first clue??
            He tells us we can’t go looking for later clues, that’s a folly. We need the first clue.
            I don’t see those comments having a conflict [ reverse engineering] if this is a observational style solve. But it sure kicks a stomping mode solution in the butt.

            But wait one minute; WhatIF hoB is the blaze? Some think it is.. right? It could very well be. Only again, I have not seen a solve that explains .. what finding a “place” not for the meek or traveling or crossing a creek, or HLnWH as a place of its own.. without leaving hoB.
            How can that be.. in stomping mode theory?

          • Bowmarc,

            You may agree or not agree with the theory I presented… but I see you at least took time to consider the likelihood of its possibility. {Aaron as well } and gave it ‘logical’ thought.. LOL that seems to be the word of the day.

            Isn’t that the whole point of thinking and analyzing.. and hopefully ‘Adjusting’ from… as you said.. “But this scenario goes against the grain of seemingly every other talked about search theory out there’

            Something has stumped all at the first two clues. All I have seen imo, is the same possible mistake…
            “they did quit, they left the poem.” [Q&A Why do you think they {searchers} quit?]

          • Seeker, I still just see plenty of things I think are incorrect in what you are saying.
            It would take me a long time to go through it all but here’s an example.

            I don’t understand how knowing hoB would kick a traditional botg solution in the butt. If we knew that so didn’t have to worry about reverse engineering for wwwh.

            Also, I don’t understand your idea that a traditional botg solution has a problem with f’s canyon comment…him not going up and down a canyon. You say we are forcing unknowns even if we have some reasonable explanation for it to work. We can’t know everything just like your theory can’t know everything. I say he drove down a canyon.

          • Seeker, I still just see plenty of things I think are incorrect in what you are saying.
            It would take me a long time to go through it all but here’s an example.

            I don’t understand how knowing hoB would kick a traditional botg solution in the butt. If we knew that so didn’t have to worry about reverse engineering for wwwh.

            Also, I don’t understand your idea that a traditional botg solution has a problem with f’s canyon comment…him not going up and down a canyon. You say we are forcing unknowns even if we have some reasonable explanation for it to work. We can’t know everything just like your theory can’t know everything. I say he prbly drove down a canyon.

          • Hi Seeker: I think the factor that you believe most favors your observational approach is that there is no publicly documented “solve” that approached it that way. And since stomping by tens of thousands of searchers hasn’t produced a bronze box, then perhaps it’s because that basic methodology cannot succeed.

            I have two counterarguments. First: I actually HAVE tried it your way in the field, as has HMA independently. It was not my primary approach, but it cost me nothing to consider it while I was at my WWWH. My primary reasons for doing so were Forrest quoting T. S. Eliot (you know the poem), the MW Random Words quote: ““*If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue. f”, and (to a lesser extent) the inability of Li’l Indy to get “closer” than the first two clues. The problem is, there is no hiding place within 500 feet of ~my~ WWWH that a corpse wouldn’t be discovered almost immediately. So either my WWWH is wrong, or the treasure is not within 500 feet of it.

            My second counterargument is that if my third clue is correct, no published solution (and I’ve read hundreds) even remotely interprets NF, BTFTW in that fashion. As a result, every stomping approach would fail that assumed that line was a distance — again, assuming my interpretation is correct. So it doesn’t bother me in the least that early searchers got stumped at the third clue: failure to solve it my way would be just as ineffective as stomping if your observational approach is correct.

          • Seeker, I believe it is possible that a searcher does not need to leave the below home of Brown area to progress though the remaining clues. In fact I will go so far as to say that perhaps in FF’s special spot he could view hoB, hence the capital B.

          • Seeker;

            It is a long way up this thread, but here is a reply:

            Seeker, you said: (Talking about stanza #3)
            I think they are cleverly written instructions [ the planning part of the task ]

            How to interpret those instructions in the poem – THAT is the hard part. Here is an attempt.

            “Begin it WWWH” = Start at a place where a little stream goes underground.

            “Take it in the canyon down” =View what is in front of you from that spot.

            NFBTFTW = Use your eyes, not your feet Look at what is in front of you. Use your mind!

            “Put in below the hoB” = “Put in” = STOP (for a monemt) your viewing “below the hoB” = The base of a cliff, (There is an Owl’s nest on this cliff – hoB – a brown owl)

            “From there it’s no place for the meek” = Neither man nor sheep can climb up this cliff face.
            “The end is ever drawing nigh” = Now, go a bit higher up the cliff-face with your eyes.
            “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” = Follow the little rivulet that you spot up the cliff face.

            “Just heavy loads and water high” =The gigantic cliff face and it’s little rivulet.

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” = If you have spotted the owl’s nest

            “Look quickly down your quest to cease” = Now look at the shadow created by this Owl’s nest and the cliff.

            “But tarry scant with marvel gaze” = Notice how this shadow moves over time.

            “Just take the chest and go in peace” = This shadow will tell you where the treasure chest is located.

            “So why is it that I must go” = You must now leave your “View Spot”, and stop your visual search and start a BotG search. Or should I call it a “Stompin’ search 🙂

            “And leave my trove for all to seek” = In order to find Indulgence

            “The answers I already know” = You know where to go since you followed the shadow’s path.

            “I’ve done it tired” = I followed the shadow as it got shorter.

            “And now I’m weak” = The shadow begins to disappear in the after-NOON.

            “So hear me all, and listen good” = Pay attention this is important

            “Your effort will be worth the cold” = Look “IN” the shadow “point” made by the Owl’s nest as the shadow begins to disappear after-NOON.

            “If you are brave and in the wood” = If you are fearless, and look in the woods where the shadow pointed you to.

            “I give you title to the gold” = You get to keep Indulgence, once you find her.

            This interpretation is a “Set of instructions” as you suggested Seeker. What Ya’ think? JDA

  19. Ever notice how “the end is ever drawing nigh” for the search? Someone always seems to be close to finding it. Year after year after year…lol

    • Sparrow,

      Yet again folks are only thinking what is near and only assume that is the answer. When “the end is ever drawing nigh”, could very well be entirely something different. Too much simplicity to only think the end is ever drawing near (nigh). Over simplifying will always IMO, will not produce the correct answer.

  20. JD. sorry no reply button to use. I have that issue. But usually don’t have much to post. But check out tarry scant 4/14/2017. I’d 5756. Mr. Fenn. Says I wanted to give people hope and something they can believe read the hints from my poem and post them on the map of the Rocky Mountains. Wether or not this is true or not I do not know. Just passing it on. As always. What’s the hint What’s the clue.
    I have not tried to decipher the difference, for I don’t think you can until you gather the right clues or hints and then separate them. IMO.
    But I do believe that there are many necessary blazes to chase down. Not just one.

    • Thanks Grasshopper. I can not find the quote that you posted even using those exact words, so it MAY exist, or may not. But thank for the “hint”.

      “Many necessary blazes”? am not sure about the “many” but I do agree more than one is needed to fully understand the poem – JDA

      • If there are many blazes then there are many treasures but you know this with many trips.

      • JDA,

        There is just one blaze, “if you’ve been wise and found THE blaze”, that sure in the heck doesn’t sound like many blazes, just one.

        • Perhaps . . . but what if more than one “blaze candidate” seems to function satisfactorily? What if, for example, there are 2 or 3 visible pretty much while looking in one direction? All IMO. Your
          smileage may vary. Or should I say “grinnage?”

  21. Blaze = Outburst
    Outburst = A Sudden release of strong emotion

    Blaze = Explosion
    Explosion = The Explosion we’ve been waiting for!

    The word Blaze has many meanings. 🙂

  22. This Chase reminds me of a political debate where all the candidates don’t completely agree with the others and most are far apart.

    It also reminds me that most have a lottery ticket with 9 numbers on it to win the big prize where some love their numbers but don’t share any numbers with you but will give you hints like, the 1st number is a prime number, even or odd number that is divisible by X.

    Hey, can I see your 1st number?
    No, that would be giving too much of my winning lottery ticket away.

    It’s a very wide variety of searchers that seems to be a slice of our society around the world.
    You want to get all numbers right before your number is up.

    • Asking price for ALL my numbers is 2.5 million USD.
      I think that’s more than fair seeing how the Treasure has been said to be worth up to 5 million and there’s also the book rights and movie rights that will be included too.

      So, if anyone is is interested in purchasing the exact location of the Treasure from me, please let me know, thanks.

      ( Boy, I hope my numbers are correct. ) 🙂

      • Since Pauley is price gouging I’m going to make my numbers, the new and improved ones no less, available for only 2.25 million USD. Don’t delay, they won’t last long at this price.

        • There will be others down to 1 mil and some may give it for free!
          This is one of the only products where you don’t get what you pay for money wise but you may have everlasting memories which may be worth more than all the money in the world. 🙂

          • Well, better proposal will be: pay for each search trip and you’ll get 20% of TC price. Search trips are not very expensive (less than $1500 per one) but possible reward is big enough. However, the legal agreement/contract looks very complicate – you will actually pay for someone travels and can loose all invested money if the searcher failed to find TC.

    • Jake,

      The trouble is folks aren’t using logic, and just using speculation without sound reasoning, to prove what ………nothing., a guess along with I think it is…. lol.

      • I’ll give an example.
        Anyone that says they use logic to come to the conclusion “And take it in the canyon down” is a hint and not a clue is using flawgic.
        That’s how I see it.

        • Jake,

          Again according to you, so prove me wrong….lol, how’s your wwwh and home of brown working for you? We could banter all day a night long, LOL A bad debate with no winners, between you and I….. I think I saw a politician going down another rabbit hole.

          • I’ve seen a few going down the same hole. It’s a pretty crowded hole.

        • Jake,

          I’m not sure if you can see logic when you might be stuck in the box you personally created. Example; when shown wording from fenn about a water grave solution, you dismissed the possibility because of your want the solve to be your way. You even said it took you a long time to get past that.

          CharlieM’s Idea is plausible and logical… just not to your way of thinking.

          I could say we could dismiss the idea of “clues” and “attempting to count them” altogether… forget what is or is not a hint.
          But we have those words stuck in our minds and can’t let go. This alone may force wrong idea in understand the way the poem was intended. We automatically must find they before even thinking about the poem.

          The idea is the videos to adjust.
          The idea is what is needed to be plan for and observe.
          The idea is more use of imagination [about what is being read in the poem.]

          I could say; Stanza two has four criteria needed to be met for a single result [ which would imply what IT is meant in stanza two]. But dare I say many will not get it because they only want to here about places- rather than adjust a thought. Thing all places must be visited forces the idea this must be a bodily movement through points… and I could say a little word like IT changes a method / thoughts and reading the poem’s intent. Only most won’t get that either.

          The poem could have been words;
          Begin where warm waters halt. THAT sounds like a movement might be involved for the next process.
          However, it reads Begin IT.
          What do you do with IT? Most I believe dismiss IT as a fluke and only think it means quest or something. Yet it is in the critical line in the poem the author tells us to nail down or ya don’t have nothing.

          I don’t agree with Charlie’s thoughts of how the poem plays out overall. But the idea NF,BTFTW as more a hint than a clue is very plausible… Unless you personally force it to be something that “only” works the way you think it should. That’s not even an attempt to adjust.

          I get the feeling the first two clues solvers thought the same and why they got stumped at clue’s 3 or 4. They don’t adjust ‘their overall idea’ of the their concept of how they want this to play out.

          Ya don’t have a good argument to debate on… your logic is in a box. A hat-box you created.

          • Seeker said…But the idea NF,BTFTW as more a hint than a clue is very plausible.

            How does that idea jive with the clues being consecutive, (continuous if f said that) and contiguous?

          • FD,
            9 years have past and we know a lot more than earlier searcher from 2010 and up.
            LOL we know WWH is a clue and the first clue, Know hoB is a clue, Know the blaze is a clue… all things fenn has said as clues in one forum or another.
            Has knowing this help with what is and is not other clues or hints that have not been clarified?
            Apparently not. because we’re still chatting about it.

            My example for NF,BTFTW as a possible hint is as followed.

            Fenn said we need to nail down WWsH. I think the word IT is meant as Observing. Because we have been told to observe.
            “Take in it” can also mean observe.
            NF is an unknown distance, so why do we force it to be one…right? It’s hinting at a view or to see what is needed to be seen that’s not far away. Yet, it’s too far to [ changing this up a bit for my point ] go to.

            It hints; to stay in place and see what needs seeing.
            Ya may not like that idea, but it is a plausible method and using NF, BTFTW as hinting – look near where you are at, but what you find is too far to go to…

            In short, I’ll interpreter it as; you’ll leave the poem’s solution if you go.

            Call it what ya will. I am looking at the poem as information that simply leads me to a ‘method’ of finding the blaze, rather than the idea I have to stomp to all those pieces of information.
            That method, with deciphers clue’s places in the correct location has failed miserably.

            In my above example, could I call IT a clue? A clue; that we need to observe? or is that considered a hint?

            MY point is… what does it matter what ‘we call them’ IF we understand what is being relayed!

          • I think some invoke some of f’s words in places that don’t do them justice.

            I was just wondering if we are throwing out continuous/consecutive and contiguous out since we have failed miserably so far.

            It may take me another 10 years to get to the point of using some of the new school dynamics like the hybrid clue/hint all in one conglomerate.

          • Seeker – I do agree with you on this point:

            “I could say we could dismiss the idea of “clues” and “attempting to count them” altogether… forget what is or is not a hint.”

            This seems logical to me to not try to solve for 9, but rather to solve for what can be matched. Then at the end, if 9 somehow reveals, one’s bias is confirmed.

            A silly example might be an upside-down F pattern from the map points. An F, or Digamma, is a Greek 6. An upside-down Digamma would be a clever 9. Not saying this is correct, just saying there are alternative ways to consider what is being said by Forrest.

          • Jake,

            Lets hear it…
            My only reason to post on a site dedicated to the challenge is to have my ideas chewed up and spit out with debatable arguments.
            Take a bite of your hat and tell me what you’re tasting?

          • No thanks Seeker,
            There’s enough searchers here taking big bites out of your theory where you just stand there and observe from WWWH.

          • That’s ok, Jake.
            Only you over simplify the theory by saying; ‘…where you just stand there and observe from WWWH.

            That tells me you gave the idea very little thought. Even with my examples of the process.
            Observing how things connect while viewing the landscape, is not unlike following a map.

            Only we don’t have the luxury of; ‘simplistic’ directions, instruction, placements ‘up front.’
            Those things need thought and deciphering, not unlike any other idea or method, presented by searchers.

            And imo, this seems to be only fully understood on site… even with clue references known of / deciphered as to what they are.
            This method is an attempt to explain how mapping places doesn’t require the searcher to be at all those places.

            The arguments so far, relate to the usage of terms, phrases, meanings that differ from the ones most searchers like to use.
            But that doesn’t make those definitions I have posted wrong … most just don’t like the legitimacy of those ‘known’ definitions because they argue they are not the most commonly used terms.

            LOL… isn’t that the point of words fenn chose.. to be difficult but not impossible… and our job is to understand how words / phrases are intended to be used / usable.

            It reminds me of Craig’s Q&A About difficulty;
            ~ “Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f ”

            **unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.** Seems to be what some want this to be from using only the more common usages of words.
            Only fenn has told us; he worked on this poem… looked up word and definitions of words… every word was deliberate…tells us it’s risky to discount words…felt like an architect blueprinting the poem, and the time spent [15 years] doing so… to get it just right, the way he wanted.

            So I get it… some just want this to be simplistic meanings / easy reading and understanding, so they don’t have to think so hard… and spend more time creating; unknown distances, alternative transportation, forcing a descent and ascent of a canyon or going around it.

            LOL it the last part was true… why not just skip clue one and look for the later clue… IF the clues could be deciphered fully at home… in theory, but not in practice.

            But thanks for your fortune cookie post that says nothing at all.

          • Your lucky numbers are: 12 – 26 – 32 – 44 – 46 – 52
            I’m not saying your theory is not possible because no one has the chest.
            I like “it” to be your quest” so you are taking your quest driving down the canyon.

          • Great, Jake.
            A response I can work with.

            Should it be we go [ by any means ] down a canyon, and folks with the first two clues solved ~ unfortunately waked passed the treasure chest. They would need a third clue to stop driving at to be able to walk by the chest.

            Where has it been said they had that third clue? What has been said is clues 3 and 4 was what stumped them. To drive, walk or fly anywhere from the first two clues… a third clue is needed for those folks stop driving, to walk by the chest.
            How could the many, several, some, [fenn’s words not mine] all stop driving at the same area, to be near the chest, without the third and/or 4 clue deciphered correct in order?

            I can not wrap my head around how that is possible no matter what transport the used.. car, bike skateboard… without the correct next clue.
            Unless the method is wrong?

          • Seeker, maybe the first two clue solvers didn’t mention to f what ideas they had for clue 3,4,5,6,7 and/8.

          • Seeker –

            “unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.”

            I see this hint similar to simplifying a complex math problem, where there are techniques used to “simplify terms”. Using etymons, one can find the origin of words and simplify them into their linguistic roots, aka stemming. PIE, for example, would be a Proto-Indo-European origin. There is definitely nothing simple about this puzzle or it would have been solved. To date there have been more than enough attempts at simple readings of the poem to cover the finite thousands of simple possibilities. So, logically, simple must mean something other than a simple reading.

            Consider this grammatically accurate sentence:

            “Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.”

            Simplified, it means “Oxen from Buffalo, NY who are bullied by other oxen from Buffalo then bully more oxen.”

            This is the kind of puzzle we are asked to solve. Hope this helps provide examples in context.

          • We don’t know about the first clue solvers but it seems some later clues have been identified to Forrest:

            “Well, there’s about 250,000 people that think they have. And, uh, I don’t know that anybody has … has … has told me the clues in the right order. I think that part of the problem is they don’t … they don’t focus on the first clue. If you don’t know where the first clue is, you might as well stay home because you’re not … you’re not going to find the treasure chest. You can’t go out looking for the blaze and expect to find the treasure chest. There’s ten billion blazes out there. So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.”

            How is it that they mention later clues out of order and fail because they do not understand the first clue? It’s odd really because if this is a point to point hunt then one should be able to find a later clue and start from there. Yet the clues are consecutive. Which clue could it be that they are mentioning and why must it be done in a certain order?

            We have: Who is Brown? “Well if I told you that you would go right to the chest”

            So would knowing Brown allow us to know what WWsH is and why we need to know the first clue?

            Questions to ponder.

          • FD,

            Comments say they walked him through their process, that is how he knows how close they were.
            I’m not saying all did that, but he said, they told him there process.

          • Seeker, I see your point. Here is my feedback, FWIW.

            The simplest possible solution to this hunt consists of 1 defined point and 1 bearing to move away from that point. It would nice to have a distance, as well, because that creates a final resting point potentially accessible from multiple directions., depending on topography.

            Now how can this minimalist idea be applied to the poem?

            A possible answer could be:

            WWH. In, HOB, and the blaze are descriptive of a singularity; naturally this point must be on printed maps.

            Given an understanding of exactly where to go, a searcher need only make their way to that point by any means possible. Once there, they pull out their compass and start walking in the deciphered direction intended.

            You seem to want a simple solution, Seeker, so perhaps this concept will allow you to identify a map anomaly that fits all the wonderful descriptions provided, thus motivating you to explore one little patch of wilderness in a place that you would not normally go.

            For me, I am going to try my luck using this technique next week. So who knows, maybe I’ll get lucky this year?

            Regards to all.

          • Regardless if they started walking from wwwh or below hoB, the mistake comes down to not understanding what wwwh is. Per ff constant repetition to go back to the first clue, it seems that is the only way to correct the error. That applies to everyone, but also to the 200/500 searchers who apparently walked past it or left the poem.

            “If you don’t know where it is go back to the first clue.” Does it mean go back there physically, go back to the map, to the poem or go back (at least in your mind) and think about it? What is he saying? “If you are in the right spot something should be obvious…” Botg, map, poem?

          • Aaron’s post concerning Fenn’s comment… *… in the correct order…” and * … you can’t go out looking for the blaze…* , and later question… How is it they mention clues out of order. These are the kind of Q’s that I believe are an important aspect to thinking different thoughts that may lead to thinking the right thoughts. I think dry runs through many scenarios will eventually lead to the correct understanding of how to get past the first two clues.
            Like I’ve said… I believe ANYONE can figure out the first two clues, from anywhere. I also think there is a very specific reason why a searcher will fail by not knowing without doubt that they have the first clue nailed down…and knowing without doubt which way to proceed from there. I believe the eventual finder will have satisfied all of these [sticking points] and see the actual Big Picture in a much different light than is talked about now.

    • Agree with you about the political debate. It is very similar. It is funny how we do not want to give too much away considering that when someone does nobody believes that they could be right. I really like a current solve but if I posted it here I doubt anyone would think twice about it, lol.

      • That’s been my experience, and why posting real thoughts has no consequence other than a few ridiculing us.

        • EC I like everything you post. I’m not excited about Elmo’s…but who the heck knows?

          • Exactly my point. I can tell the world my real solution even before going out and looking. Only a few will give me carp about it. Everyone else who actually reads it wouldn’t be crazy about it. Nor the real solution when everyone finally reads that one from the smartysmart who finds it.

      • Aaron,
        You have no idea how many emails I have gotten from searchers how they are absolutely sure about their solve where the treasure is.
        I’ll bet dal gets 10x more than me and maybe even 100x more.

        ” if I posted it here I doubt anyone would think twice about it,”
        You can’t speak for “anyone” here because you didn’t post it.
        Plenty of searchers here would poke small and large holes in it even if it’s the “correct solve”.

        Here, there is an endless round of Chase views every day and night with many posting just like the politicians you will see again tonight.
        I don’t like politicians.

        • That is true Jake. And by saying I doubt anyone would think twice about it I meant in a useful way. Either holes get poked, or if people do like it they will not reply and may look into it themselves. At least that’s what goes through my mind. I’m not complaining mind you. It is human nature for people to like their own ideas more. Just noting how funny it works. We can feel extremely confident because we came up with the idea, yet it may be a bad one in everyone elses mind

    • I’m sure it looks that way to someone who didn’t do complete research, with the direct link on dals homepage for too far to walk and for once upon a while. But I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that dal is benefiting financially from “the chase” when you consider all of the traffic coming to this site with all of the clock adds on the page. So while,I’m guessing but don’t know, the money from book sales is all for collected works, It would seem that there would have to be a good chunk of coin headed dals way for all the click traffic.

      • Dal provides an excellent resource to keep updated on everything Chase related. The ads are something new in the last year or so. He has faithfully provided this venue out of his own pocket…so who really cares if he generates some revenue to cover costs? Thanks for the great site Dal !

        • I use this as my number one resource and I don’t care about the adds. Just stating the obvious to a post about a report in money.com.

          • **** and it appeared that post would be errant in how it speculated dal did profit from this resource.

        • I believe in free enterprise and I’m sure no one is getting rich using Fenn’s Chase as a way to make money. All the power to ya if you are.

          On the other hand, I’m not a fan of people using negative, uniformed and false information to make money as some do.

    • I don’t think anyone is making much money from the chase ,a bit , maybe enough to pay for gas for hunting.

      • At 10,500ish views per day, I’d bet it’s more than you think. But regardless good for dal for actually turning this chase into a win.

  23. Central to the thoughts mentioned throughout the blogs is that “the beginning” starts somewhere in the four state region. Perhaps we are looking in the “wrong location” for answering the clue(s) that are contained within the second stanza.

    Forrest has taken everyone for a wild ride throughout the last 10+ years and goodness knows when and where it will end. I think we all better hold on tight and hang on to our hats.

    Of course this is just in my imagination (JIMI).

    • I’ve seen the word “hat” twice in the last few minutes on this thread. And I’ve
      wondered for a long time whether the word or concept of “hat” is a significant
      hint. So far, I don’t see it as one (any more than “hunch”, “pie”, “concrete”, or “architect”). As always, IMO.

  24. If Dal was in it for the money there would be ads all along the side bar, and he would be drivinh a new 4wd hummer. If you consider the link to the book as an ad making money don’t you think it would be on every page a dozen times?
    If he makes anything good for him, but I bet it wouldn’t pay for the gas of one trip. Just IMO,.
    Thanks Dal for all your work and keeping the ads away.

  25. OMG, the drama unfolding over hints and clues. As an investigator a clue is solid information, one piece of a puzzle. Clues form the path to a concluesion. A hint is suggestive, like an adjective helps define a noun better. “There was a hint of flowers in the air” or “a hint of green in the sunset”. There IS a difference between hint and clue. IMO the shared problem we have is locking in a clue. A hint is useless without some idea of the clue’s identity. That brings us back to vagueness, double meanings, and the tantalizing thought that any or all of us may have a clue but don’t realize it. Like the searchers that have come close. The exquisite agony, the madness of loving the search.

    • saun moony,

      Glad to see another investigator, that basically agrees with me on what a clue and hint is. I hope you work without biases to work to find the facts as I do. Its not easy to put biases to the side, if bias does come into play it becomes the wrong reasoning with a failure to find the facts, which ends up without true facts and a false investigation. Stick with marrying the poem to a map and don’t be biased, IMO will have better results.

      Just Say’n

      • I’ve determined clues are in the poem, while hints are what Mr Fenn has put out orally and in writing. Exhaustive research, included references posted here and other sites, have provided a curious take on the search. Will know this summer, soon if I can help it.

  26. Streamers,
    As Mr. Fenn has mentioned before its important to tie your own flies. The two flies he tied for the Function got me to thinking. You know what they say, bright day bright fly. So with that in mind I went to riffling through some brightly tied streamers and came up with some rough ideas. While both have a set of offset imitation dumbbell eyes, the two feathered white Marabout turkey feathers countered the highlighted dyed red head considerably. The Wiggle Tail Bunny and the Gallops Sex Dungeon left me thinking a little Zonkered. The Clouser I’m sure was a close call. But like life itself, all choices have there ups and downs. The two barbs brought on a “Two Hit” theory and left me feeling a little queasy, like on an overdose of Knudson’s. But after carefully adding all the fancy plumage together only one name seemed to make sense the White Plumed Faith tied on a barbless #8 with an improved clinch.

  27. @ Zap – The chains got too long up above so I am just commenting anew here about a couple of things upthread:

    1) Is it really subterfuge if the words mean exactly what they say, but we are the ones who misinterpret them, or place too much importance on certain ones and not others?

    2) In your symbolic logic example, I’d be careful assigning negative value to the letters you substituted in for word(s)/word phrases within the formula.

    As an example of the two points listed above, let’s examine the word “it’s” from the first line of stanza #3 that we are discussing. “It’s” is a contraction of the words “it” and “is” and I am going to go out on a limb and say that when you made your symbolic logic equation you used “it is” to arrive at your “Not A” part of the formula becasue it would read as “it is no”. However, “it’s” is also a contraction of the words “it” and “has”, which, if you used such definition to formulate your symbolic equation, I am going to go out on a limb and say that it would no longer read as “Not A”, it would read as “A” becasue the word “no” no longer reflects on what you call “A” in the formula. “It is no” and “It has no” lead to two very different outcomes for the sentence, and two very different looking symbolic equations. Was FF using subterfuge there, or did we misinterpret what he wrote, which in turn caused the formula to be faulty?

    All IMHO.

    • Hi Bowmarc: my ABCDE was just an example; I recognize that there are many potential ways of interpreting that stanza. My intent was to show a scenario under which the entire stanza could be a single clue. Personally, I don’t think that’s the case.

      • But overall, as an example, do you see how there was no subterfuge on FF’s part, just our own biases causing us to misinterpret his words as he designed them to read?

    • Q? for you Bowmarc, re *it’s = it has*

      Examples? The ones I come up with use a form of “get” or some other verb. “He’s broke, he’s got no money,” where the “has” in “he’s” is an auxiliary verb, not the verb itself (which is “get”).

      You could also just say “he has no money”, but we wouldn’t contract to “he’s no money.”

      As an example in 2nd person, you might say “you’ve got mail” or “you have mail”, but we’d never say-or-write “you’ve mail”.

      (What, never? Well hardly ever.)


      • “It’s been a while since the last time I heard from you, J. A. Kraven.” 🙂

        • Exactly my point, Bowmarc.

          If you’d written

          “It’s a while since the last time . . . ”

          then It’s = It is.

          It’s the verb “been” (‘to be’) that allows (requires) the * ‘s * to be “has.”

          So if in the poem it was

          “It’s been no place for the meek”

          then (and only then) would It’s = It has.


          • You can ignore reading the line as potentially being “From there IT HAS no place for the meek” if you want to, but the words mean exactly what FF intended them to mean, and who cares what word (or conjunction in this case) he uses as long as you understand the message. Sometimes a butterfly is really a flutterby.


          • I don’t ignore reading the line as potentially being “From there IT HAS no place for the meek”, Bowmarc.

            But after careful consideration, I did discount it, and I explained why.

            By “discount” I simply mean I think it far less likely that it’s intended to be “it has” than “it is.”

            At the same time, I’m not seeing much difference in the two readings – so what’s the significant effect of your reading over the other?

            (I assume you presented your reading for discussion and/or feedback.)


          • One is a little more specific, directionally speaking, than the other—less broadly applied, more narrowing in scope.


          • @ JAKe =

            Please note that here—


            —the word “has” is defined as a verb meaning “have, used with he/she/it” and/or “he/she/it form of have”.

            Also notice the first example of the word “has” under the “Examples of ‘has'” section a little further down the page which reads “I define fictionalization in these terms rather than as it has traditionally been defined.” “It’s” is an acceptable substitution for “it has” in that sentence.

            I hope the provides enough information to convey that “From there it’s no place for the meek” can also plausibly be translated to “From there it has no place for the meek” because the right ingredients are present (the word IT + HAS as a form of the word HAVE exactly as defined above).

            “From there it has no place for the meek” seems to suggest that from the PIBTHOB spot we travel to that NPFTM spot rather than being in such an area already as the “It is” version of the line seems to indicate.


          • Bowmarc,

            I like the usage.

            Let me toss another piece of wood into the firer.

            IT; used in the normal subject position in statements about ** time,** distance, or weather. {time being the key word here}…
            IT; the situation or circumstances; things in general.

            “From there” is a piece of information that should be known of prior [from where we are at]. However. The line FTINPFTM is not telling us to *go* “from there”
            So what is IT we are supposed to do?
            IT IS {it’s} can be of a situation and circumstance, involving time… that ‘is’ no place for the meek.

            But the stomping only method doesn’t allow this idea to pan out. That method forces an unknown place to be created.. imo… by guessing only.

            Just food for thought…

          • Are you OK Seeker? That’s like 3 or 4 comments of mine over the past few days that you have somewhat liked/agreed with…LOL. Maybe I’m the one coming around to your point of view/mindset…LOL.

            Anyway, I see the FTIHNPFTM line giving us a direction and/or distance to travel from where we are at by the end of the previous stanza.

            Works for my current solve process anyway, and it is here that we part ways because such does not interpret IT as time, nor it’s as it is (for now anyways, on both accounts) because theories do evolve as we think THink THINK).

          • Ha!

            OK I get the idea of traveling and trying to match a place that is considered NPFTM.

            But again, Don’t need to be told to move?

            I mean, I can understand movement with the terms / phrases “take it in” and “put in” … Only “from there” isn’t saying to move. Example; From my house I can see a black swirling clouds and lightning bolts scatter is all direction.

            That could be a “place” that is being described at NPFTW. But it’s not telling me to go there. What it is explain is a situation of why it can be considered NPFTM. SO, if that is the intent, and we are on a hunt to find anything. Is this line meant more about a situation or condition we need to be in?

            Something simple to the idea of “your effort” and why cold can be of a feeling of emotion and/or both a feeling of an emotion in the location and a time in the location… meaning night.

            Are there other indicators to help this line of thinking??? NEW and OLD. New day approaches as the old day departs.
            NP for the easily frighten, wimpish to spend a night in the mountains… Brave and in the wood… { although I think that has something else in mind }.

            A place doesn’t have to be physical… a place in time [ or the situation of that time spent at place. The same place we are told of just before in the poem. ]

            If any of that BSing is correct… it explains more about “planning and observing” we have been told to do [besides just thinking and analyzing] other than packing for a trip and looking at maps.

            From the last physical place we are at in the poem… stanza 3 seems to being with a thought of a situation that is presented [ and part of the solution ] and not so much a movement.

            Even the line “there’ll be… no” – paddle up your creek” may indicate … It’s not a bad situation, but a needed one. the question is; why is this needed to be known? IMO, that is the deciphering part. it is easy to dismiss little words such as ‘IT’..yet.. I posted of how the word IT can be refer [by the meaning of the word] to as time related.

            The same idea of “Take IT in” can be of a view by the meaning of the term “take IT {something} in as view.
            And how IT in being it where as a subject to what IT represents: the thing we are told to do ~ plan and Observe.

            LOL one tiny two letter word brings the understand of how ‘the / A poem’ is read differently, and still uses “plain English”… because a poem is meant / a poem’s purpose, for interpretations of words used and the freedom of the author to utilize those ‘Multiple Meanings’ and usages.

            Now add a challenge to do just that and explain there are clues needing deciphering and followed “precisely”… A single two letter word can be the make or break of a good solve, but not understood properly leading to “poor execution” method.

            I seem to have heard that before. I just can remember who said IT…

          • *** *** *** ***
            Bowmarc – “ . . . notice the first example of the word “has” . . . reads “I define fictionalization in these terms rather than as it has traditionally been defined.” “It’s” is an acceptable substitution for “it has” in that sentence.
            *** *** *** ***

            Absolutely correct, Bowmarc, but look at the bigger picture. In that example *has* is serving as an auxiliary verb, not a standalone verb.

            “it’s been defined” = “it *has* been defined” (and *cannot* be read as “it *is* been defined”)

            “it’s being defined” = “it *is* being defined” (and *cannot* be read as “it *has* being defined”)

            The same *is/has* auxiliaries in a similar usage (helping to determine the tense of the associated verb phrase):
            “If you’ve been wise . . .” = have
            “If you’re being wise . . .” = are

            *** *** *** ***
            Bowmarc – “I hope the provides enough information to convey that “From there it’s no place for the meek” can also plausibly be translated to “From there it has no place for the meek” because the right ingredients are present (the word IT + HAS as a form of the word HAVE exactly as defined above).”
            *** *** *** ***

            Different case, because here “is/has” IS the verb, not just functioning as a tense-helper.

            It’s no big deal really, but I’ll stick with the idea that

            “This car sucks, it has no room for my legs”

            would hardly ever (either speaking or writing) be contracted to

            “This car sucks, it’s no room for my legs.”

            We all of course value and/or discount various readings to different degrees, and I’m just throwing in my take. It’s a big stew, season to taste.


          • @ Seeker – For me I guess it boils down to FF giving us a pathway where the descriptors need to be understood precisely rather than the descriptors having to reveal to us precise distances, directions, coordinates, etc.. I can envision a pathway that leads me from whatever I feel is the PIBTHOB spot to what I am considering as NPFTM—marrying the two concepts together is what is required/important, and the distance is what it is as a result of the process, not of learning about a measurement/direction/coordinate (Point X to point Y because X = PIBTHOB and Y = NPFTM and not because the words decipher down to “Travel North along the 135th parallel for 250 standard paces, then turn Northeast…”.) With that said, even if two things marry together in such a manner, I still want to check and balance the likelihood of them actually being married clues by using other aspects about the chase that I feel help define the parameters of same. In other words, if the distance derived by marrying two clues together and on a map is 300 miles, I don’t think such is reasonable because I believe FF when he says he walked from his car twice in one afternoon when he hid the treasure and it was less than a few miles, etc.

            Some of your other comments align with my current solve process, but such does not involve time as a component. Keep considering counter-intuitive possibilities and such may open up a overall new perspective for you.

  28. It seems that the “Reply” option for each posted message is becoming less and less available for use. That is one of the problems with this message board.

    So, I’ll have to respond here to Seeker, whose comments appear way above my current response.

    Seeker, how many more decades are you going to keep trying to SELL your “observational” theory? You take selected verbal quotes from FF and based on his ad-hoc word choices you devise an entire theory around the literal words he uses. You keep quoting him (over and over and over) … “try and marry the clueS to A place on a map …”

    Okay, we get it! In your mind there’s no chance that FF, in speaking extemporaneously, could have simply meant that searcher needs to marry clues to places (plural) on a map.

    Verbal comments are most often spoken on the spur of the moment; they may be only an approximation of the truth; sometimes they seem to contradict; and they in no way take the place of the words in the poem, which Forrest spent years and years perfecting. You seem to ignore this reality.

    And will you kindly refrain from using the derogatory phrase “stomping out”, for the more accepted theory of needing to trek from place to place.

    Your “observational” theory is defective, in my opinion, because, among other reasons, it reduces the number of clues from 9 to 2; (1) WWWH and (2) the place from which searcher stands to “observe”. And don’t respond with “I never said that; where did that come from”; it came from my reading of your own theory. One thing a writer needs to understand is that he/she is responsible for how readers react to what the writer has written.

    What’s even more disconcerting about your “observational” theory is that it requires the first clue (WWWH) to be the only clue Forrest gives for an expanse of land from Santa Fe to the Canadian border that encompasses 4 states.

    Yet, paradoxically, once searcher miraculously finds WWWH, Forrest gives us 8 clues that apply to an area that can be traversed in one afternoon. What an idiotic design for a treasure hunt.

    Academic theories (repeated over and over and over) become stale and lifeless, as far as I’m concerned. Eventually, I’ll just skip past them because I know that the author has nothing new to say.

    Maybe a “Reply” option will magically appear when I post this. If not, I’m not going to take the time to search for any reply.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • Yup Ken,
      “observational” theory has no legs because you don’t need them.
      We need to get in the wood at sometime in the poem and physically explore using our legs and mind. Less than a few miles….

  29. Ken {TX}

    Bit of an overkill don’cha think… “Decades”
    I have to laugh that you start your comment with whining, instead of adding thoughts to a discussion going on by many.

    While I have listed many of fenn’s quotes to show a thought process, a check n balance attempt to any idea, attempt to figure out those ATFs that seem to contradict some others.. many quotes I use are Q&As fenn had time to think about and consider his wording in an answer, for the sole purpose of being “posted” on these site for searchers to read.

    I don’t get your complaint of saying: “we get it” as if the idea here is to only say a theory, idea, method, thought process etc. once, or must be agreed upon by the majority to have that conversation.
    It’s a chat room about many aspects of the challenge and all the information intertwines. How can many pieces of 9 years of information not be repeated when explaining those idea_?_ as new thoughts arise?

    I’m not a fortune-cookie poster… I try and actually add to a conversation,

    Kinda like saying; ‘ Your “observational” theory is defective, in my opinion, because, among other reasons, it reduces the number of clues from 9 to 2; (1) WWWH and (2) the place from which searcher stands to “observe” ‘
    But Yet, all you’re doing is saying that as if it is a true stated fact. You produce no argument of reason to add to the conversion.
    How does it reduce anything?
    I’m using the same lines and stanzas everyone else has from the poem. It just seems you don’t like the idea because you want a head count; that you feel there should be, the way you see those counts have to be.

    Your comment about; ‘What an idiotic design for a treasure hunt.’
    Seems to say to me, you have a crystal ball that tells you how this all should play out. Or this challenge must be designed as all the other typical treasure hunts. Like there’s an owners for all treasure hunts we must follow.
    If you remove the lure [ the chest ] we are not treasure hunting, as much as, finding a place fenn considers his own and special to him. Not a 10″ sq. placement of an item.
    Although, the term “treasure hunt” ~ “sells” the idea well, and got folks excited to be in the mountains. The term is the hook line and sinker that captured everyone’s attention.

    You stated; ‘And will you kindly refrain from using the **derogatory** phrase “stomping out”, for the more **accepted theory** of needing to trek from place to place.’
    In all honesty; that is PC – BS, and insulting in-of-itself.

    **There is absolutely no “derogatory” meaning with the term ‘Stomping Clues” It’s a term many hunters use as a method of tracking pray. So my answer is… Grow up and live with it.
    I not 12, and will to be told what is or is not accepted / acceptable. And I surly don’t like the idea that you’re attempting to belittle me, by your attempt to make my comments inappropriate in some manner…
    I’M not going to be policed in my vernacular… by anyone.

    But your last statement tells your intent of your post ~ ‘Academic theories (repeated over and over and over) become stale and lifeless, as far as I’m concerned. Eventually, I’ll just skip past them because I know that the author has nothing new to say.’
    This post of yours is nothing more than a frustrated comment, simply because to don’t like an idea. Only, you don’t present arguments / debatable information to show “reasoning” for the idea not to be plausible.

    Hop, skip, and jump away if ya like. There’s no law saying you have to participate. But should you… at least show some effort by explaining probabilities, or lack of, in a conversation. The other posters [ in this particular discussion ] have at least done that much [whether the agree or disagree]… In a chat-room / web site created for the purpose; to brings folks together, from all over the word, to do just that.

      • LOL – his coffee pot prob burned up from over use. But so has mine, still waiting on a new one.

      • Another fortune cookie post.

        I hope Zap doesn’t mind, but I’m going to use the gentleman as my example.
        Zap and I have buck heads, had heated debates, disagreed on just about everything the other has to say. BUT he always has explanations, information, and explains, asked questions in ‘his’ reasoning in a conversation… He doen’t have to like me personally, but he does show effort to what is being discussed. That simple effort, I can respect.

        These constant types fortune cookie comment postings, Jake, are ridiculous and lead nowhere in any conversation. Not unlike the other post above from you I responded to.
        It actually deters others from joining into a conversation, imo; seeing a response noticed; someone made a comment about their post, only to find nothing stated that enhances the discussion.

        • Seeker,

          The downfall of relying on ATF to use as confirmation or reasoning to justify what a clue or how one comes to believe they have solved the poem, it just isn’t going work, because it is merely speculation.

          What will work is to find out what the poem is telling us and the most important clue of all is wwwh. With out answering that clue without facts and only using speculation and ATF is so misguided. If you learn and know where and why this happens one will start at the right place with the right map. IMO, Of course the most useful ATF of all are, where not to look which is in the Cheat Sheet at the top, that’s is it of ATF to use.

          To use crutches outside of the poem, such as AFT is forcing an incorrect clue’s answer. I would say that working on the poem it’s self for factual places and things, using geography and the map.

          Can you or anyone else put those ATF and the stories and biases to the side to work out the clues in the poem? If one says no, then I wish the best of luck. By the way the biases start right from the moment the first book came out after finishing reading. The biases solely are based upon West Yellowstone and YNP, including NM, just because Forrest spent time and lived in those places.

          Your theory is pure speculation based upon primarily using the AFT as a crutch to validate what you think. Just to view from wwwh to find the clues in a small area, isn’t doing much work at all. This is what you have been saying to view then pick out what the clues might be without fully understanding what they are, comes to pure speculation.

          I’m not trying to rip you a new one, I only base this from what you have posted, I’m only trying to help you to realize ATF aren’t really the thing to lean on as heavily as you are. VERY important words to think about, “marry the poem to a place on a map, think analyze and learn.” cm

          Peace out, Just Say’n

          • CharlieM. What you are saying in points, are reasonable thoughts. Less whom you’re thoughts and reasonings are directed at, I resonate with your points about ATF’s. The ATFs themselves are spoken and written in a type craft/style that could be easily misinterpreted and or related incorrectly to a point that appears logically obvious . Always discerning for the obvious in the relationship of an ATF to a clue or clues, could be likened to the craft of Magic. You’ll see what you’re trained to see in normalcy through learned expectations observed via experiences of the rational and logical eye. But it’s the imagination that comes to the forefront by the craft of magic. It’s the logical mind that gets tricked in to believing . In the magnetics of the mind, the ‘net’ is the logic field of resonance . Step outside of logic( remove the ‘net’) you then have Magic!

            FF is the Magician with his ATF’s.


          • I find it interesting that you caution against using ATF’s for whatever reason(s), yet the cornerstone of your argument revolves around using an ATF to let us know what we should be doing/concentrating on.

          • Totally have to disagree with you Charlie. We’ve discussed this before, but the fact that f cannot just sit ideally by, would prompt his participation. Being that it’s all outside the poem, leads to hints from f. Do you believe that f has never given hints within his ATF’s? If so, why would he need to even comment? There’s to much info within the ATF’s to not take them serious.
            To just take the poem, look at some map, right or wrong, and then find things that coincide to the poem is all about being speculative. It’s total guessing. Just because the poem has wording that may be similar, to find similarities by just looking at a map is not solving the poem. The best thing, IMO, is to not even use a map until you have solved the poem and have somewhere to go. Also, wwwh is not the most important clue. When he said that if you know hoB why would you be worried about wwwh, that makes wwwh not as important as the last clue. Which he says is the only one you need to solve. With that ATF, obviously, the 9th clue is the one above all, can be solved, and will end the chase if correct. I really don’t get you guys that say to solve clues you need other clues. F has never said that clues solve clues. The only verbage of helping to solve clues is from hints. Hints help with the clues, not the clues. And, where do we get all the hints?
            I don’t agree with Seeker’s way of solving this thing, but the ideas behind his thinking that are spawned are valid for more discussion, they always have been since the 4 or so years that he has come on seen. Part of the poem is observational, ATF’s can be used to help backup clue solves, and the supposed speculation from interpreting ATF’s is just a falsehood from your interpretation. Are we supposed to have a write up that says I found wwwh because I looked at a map, and there it is? Marry clues, that even f didn’t know existed until he was done, to a supposed correct map. Now that is all speculation 101.
            If you don’t use the ATF’s to help confirm your solve, then you have no way to be confident.
            You say: Can you or anyone else put those ATF and the stories and biases to the side to work out the clues in the poem? Lol, huh? Who knows what the clues are? Who knows what f intended as clues? That is total speculation on your part, thinking you can know the clues. That is so ridiculous. Should we go round and round? You won’t know a clue until you have the chest, but you will be confident, but you won’t know if you have the correct wwwh, even though the hoB and the blaze are close to the chest but far apart in the poem. Is hoB a clue? F has never said it is. Maybe too far to walk? f has never said it was, but in an ATF, f has defined “too far”. Current discussions put the last clue as the blaze. Lol, but what do you do at the blaze? We need to be told, at least that would then be the clue, but hey, I guess we just stand at the blaze, right? Logic has escaped many. But who’s logic? I can care less about everyone’s so called logical way of thinking, I’m trying to figure out f’s way of logically telling us what to do. And that involves almost every word that he has spit forth concerning the chase. Is your logic stemming from the ATF I like to post:
            You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
            No I don’t madam, sorry. f
            Since you must solve clues, these words put a wrench in your cogs. So just don’t listen to it so your solve can work? Forget:
            Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
            No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.
            You don’t need to find the chest to know if you have the right wwwh, right? In the book, he says there are hundreds of coins in the chest, in an ATF, he gives up:
            What’s in this treasure box? That question is also answered in my book, but the quick answer is: 265 gold coins,
            Is this not important info? Why would he remember that? Why would he put exactly that amount? Means nothing?
            You guys rip on a guy that spawns discussions and reasonable thinking to meaningful discussions about the chase. Asking questions and offering insight, do you all really feel that you can solve this whole thing by yourself? Lol, now that is speculation and non logical any way you look at it. Please, if you want to disagree with an idea, bring something to the table of why it can be seen as wrong. Just coming up with, ahhh, it’s wrong and illogical, is not an answer. If someone is going to give a thought and examples of possible reasons why it could work, at least come up with some examples of why that searcher is wrong. (lol, but don’t use the ATF’s, right?)

          • @ CharlieM – Carrying on for a bit, and like poisonivey seemingly is intimating, FF isn’t sitting out of TTOTC. He is still an active participant to some degree, but he is not going to be as blatant about giving out information as he was when he stated “The first clue is begin it where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue. If you don’t, if you can’t figure that clue out you don’t have anything.”

            All we really have are WORDS to solve this thing. Why wouldn’t we consider all of them from the poem’s architect as a means to check and balance an idea / theory / concept / construct / deconstruct / reconstruct of the poem? I’m not saying that everything FF utters has some deep significance to TTOTC, but if he is talking / commenting / interviewing about TTOTC, it is chase related and fair game for analysis for some nugget of information that may be helpful to a solve / theory.

            @ FD – From the looks and sounds of things, searchers have been stuck/stumped pretty close to their WWWH since the beginning of TTOTC anyways. What is so wrong with exploring alternative approaches as to why they get stuck/stumped? Some combination of factors is in play and exploring varying concepts may just help to reveal / unlock the WWWWW&H of it all. After having just said that, if I remove the first two “W’s” from that string, I am left with WWWH, so is FF saying through his “Where Warm Waters Halt” phrasing that we should be concentrating on Where/What/Why/&How…interesting, very interesting…LOL. See how theories can come and go?

          • poisonivey,

            I didn’t just pick up a map and say this is wwwh. You assume that I am doing all of this stuff that you mentioned, truth of the matter, I use facts not hypothetical assumptions as many of the folks do.

            I hear a huge amount of folks saying, “I think” in regards what, where a clue “might” be. None of those folks have said, “these are the facts”, but instead rely mostly on the ATF to validate the clues. I don’t recall F ever saying this or that, what a clue is. He is answering to hypothetical questions and does not answer to questions about any particular clue as being correct.

            Of course F is involved in the Chase and I’m not tossing him to the side. My point was relying on AFT shouldn’t influence a reasonable search to find each clue as a fact. In stead folks are doing the opposite and making all of the clues speculative, hypothetical and guesses based on ATF.

            I think F said something on over simplifying the poem and the longer one searches it becomes overly complicated. So 9 years later there is a huge amount of ATF and no one to my knowledge has found the chest based upon ATF from F. Each clue must be based upon solid facts, it’s impossible to move on from one clue to the next clue without solid facts, not ATF.

            What I do see from your comments, you are assuming how I am conducting a search, which is completely false. If you think that the poem has to be solved prior to using a map is misguided Based upon marrying the poem to a map and F had suggest to new searchers to marry the poem to a map. Nothing in this comment is about his first book or any other book as a means to solving the poem.

            One can solve all of the clues, but can’t complete the poem until the chest has been retrieved. Forrest wrote the poem and followed the poem, but couldn’t complete the poem until he placed the chest in its hiding place. The idea that the last clue can’t be solved is wrong, the poem can’t be completed without the chest. The clues have to be solved in order to retrieve the chest, again I am saying the poem can’t be “completed” until the chest is retrieved. How does one expect to walk right to it, (the chest) as F has mentioned? You can’t without solving each clue.

            Yes I did refer to AFT, but none of those AFT I mentioned above aren’t related to any particular clue or a reason for any clue in a particular place.

            IMO & Just Say’n

          • Charlie, you missed what I was saying, but forget that. Lets look at what you are saying.
            – I use facts not hypothetical assumptions as many of the folks do
            to gather these facts, wouldn’t you be using ATF’s? The poem is in the book, the poem doesn’t say where wwh is or what it is, or what hoB is, or what the blaze looks like. Obviously. So the answers must be hidden within the poem then. But, an ATF says that the answers to those things is nowhere within the book in a subtle way. (hidden, camouflaged, etc…). With that ATF, you can gather that the poem is not solved in this way. Solving clue to clue. It is an impossible method. This helps in determining a way to solve the poem, and helps on how not to solve.

          • Poison-
            I realize your comment above is not directed at me but I feel awkwardly compelled to chime in…
            Why are you so certain that there is no direction in the poem that leads you to where WWH is located?
            I too believe in facts and I believe the first stanza of the poem describes the precise place where WWH.
            And since the clues in the poem are in consecutive order it makes Fenn sense that the first stanza sets up the location WWWH and not the location of the hidey place as many folks believe the first stanza is all about…
            The description of the hidey spot is in the final stanza..I believe…as logic would suggest if the clues are in consecutive order.

            “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f”

            “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally… the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues, or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” (27:06)
            (May 2011 – Lorene Mills Interview)

          • Hi Charlie,

            Seems like every time I come here, you are being ganged up upon. I get your point and agree. The problem with the discussions here is that, since no one is willing to share everything about their solve, no one can really communicate completely.

            I got much farther once I shut out ATFs from my process (except, as you say, the clear ones like between 5000-10,200 feet) which I use as “checkers” to make sure I am not in an out of bounds location. Only after I had built my current solution did I go back and look at the ATFs again, and of course I found hints – because you can find hints in ATFs for any theory you want. I even did a write up on Scrapbook 107 on the many possible ways you can use the story and the photos to come up with all sorts of “confirmations”.

            Seems like you have a pretty thick skin, seeing how you keep coming back here and getting picked on. Good for you.

            Take care.

          • Dal ~ “I too believe in facts and I believe the first stanza of the poem describes the precise place where WWH…. And since the clues in the poem are in consecutive order it makes Fenn sense that the first stanza sets up the location WWWH and **not the location of the hidey place** as many folks believe the first stanza is all about…”
            Why can’t it be both-?- both the first clue’s location and the location of the hide? The word I like, that you used is; “describes”
            If your special place was your den… and you were to describe things [features] in this room, each needing to be told in a specific order for someone to follow to a hidden item within.. is the chase challenge possibly done the same?
            The catch is, while surveying the den area, the person is not directly told outright what is in the room. They need to figure out what you are “describing” by your wording of how you see those features. You create the order they need to ‘follow.’
            If they can’t.. the item hidden is never discovered, because hidden is just that… concealed, unseen, unrevealed.

            But here’s the catch 22… You ‘need to’ design this hidey spot to be found by means of the necessity; to follow each point in the room. [the question is, how many points are ‘needed]?

            In one theory… to make it difficult, the means could use [ lets say ] the west side window in your den, and the searcher need to follow how the light case shadow, on a specific day to be exact on that given day.

            In theory, you know this room like the back of your hand, so you can imagine how it all plays out while writing your descriptions of the clues. The only thing you don’t know is; “Exactly” where IN your special place, just a general direction. [ the light changes all year long.]
            So you pick a certain day. even a certain time of day [yep, that sucks if true for many searchers… but it is a precise poem to a 10″ spot [in the mountains] and needs to allow all the same opportunity to decipher correctly.. without guessing]

            This become your hidey. Your blaze is “chosen” by you following your own clues to a spot [ within your special place] Then by what ever means you [ fenn] created… the chest is hidden, unseen, ONLY found, by find the blaze… that your clues lead You/Forrest to.

            The example above implies; WWsH is your special place, and the place you hide your trove.
            I’ll add; the idea here is; you want the finder to earn your prize, and not just guess. So the descriptions in your poem would need deciphering on ‘how to proceed correctly.’
            Not unlike folks trying to hike through a solve attempting to know where to turn, go up or down, cross here or not etc.

            Would it them make sense that stanza 1 tells of going to his special place WWsH.
            Stanza 2 describes where to look [in a direction{canyon down} ] not far away, but too far to go to. But in the same direction of hoB?
            Once this deciphered clue is correctly discovered [hob]… From there…stanza 3 tells of how to finalize the ‘process’ of finding the blaze.

            ~It’s not what I say, it what you think I say~ line of thinking…
            imo… this is how folks are failing while on site. They think a clue must be a place, rather than, an actual ‘process to follow’…. Instructions cleverly written in the poem, forcing clues to be of places, just because of how they are worded, but could be instruction to proceed in a different manner… plan and observe.

            I think fenn is describing what he sees when standing at the hide… after he followed his own ‘blueprint’ to discover a blaze he used as type of marker.
            He followed the clues ‘when he hid the chest before the poem was complete [completed?] on a specific day to accomplish the the task.

            IMO, and In theory… hoB ‘leads’ one to “discover” the blaze.

            So why can’t WWsH be the location of the Hide?

          • I also see a hint in the 1st stanza that helps with the 1st clue WWWH.

            I also think “Your effort will be worth the COLD” is a hint or reference to “where WARM waters halt”
            “IF* you are brave and in the wood” is a hint to the last clue line
            “IF* you’ve been wise and found the blaze”

            Warm – cold
            Only 2 “IF”s in the poem.

        • CharlieM

          You are using the word ‘confirmation’ That is completely different to my wording of check and balances.

          No one can use a single comment and act that it tells all. The combination of most, if not all, [or as many as can be located] start showing patterns.
          Pattern that creates questions… if we don’t attempt to answer those reasonable question… well… your basically stuck on the first idea you come up with.
          Sure, we change the names and places.. but the pattern or method stays the same.

          Not unlike learning patterns to understand a method of operations… when places are burglarized; for example. Days of the week they took place, Items taken, first floor only or multiple floors involved, residential, business. Times of break ins. Method of entry. Was there a break in [ damage ]? Were key pads involved, types of electronic security system [ if any, or some or all ]… the list go on, as you know.
          So if key pad entry are on most or all places… do you dismiss the idea of an employ of the agency might comes play, might be involved-?- just because they are in the business of deterring, and protection of property?
          Or do you check out the possibility no matter how remote? Can that lead to a time line when someone if off work when the break ins occur… someone with access to the information needed… someone who’s bank account has had unusual transactions [possible deposits] or resent new purchase, etc etc.

          It may all lead to a dead end, but do you take it in consideration for that information known of in the homes and or business… you may never find out who may have done the jobs.

          So if you see a poem with many indicators that relate to observation [ even though they are not easily noticed or easily over looked [meanings of words that don’t seem at first glance to say “look, view, observe”] you just dismiss it as not possible? You don’t think about why fenn may have used certain terms, phrases, multiple meanings, yet still in ‘plain English’… and why it took him so long to accomplish the design / blueprint.
          or his comment;~ I look up words and definition of words, changed them and rebooted… it [ the poem] came out exactly as he wanted…~ and write that off as simple hearsay? All ATFs

          Speculation is needed… its part of analyzing and thinking the right thoughts… or know as, “considering the WhaTIF” ~ yet another ATF comment from fenn.

          Your second paragraph had me rolling on the floor… ~ ‘IMO, Of course the most useful ATF of all are, where not to look which is in the Cheat Sheet at the top, that’s is it of ATF to use.’
          –Eliminated areas not to look in.– only used?
          Ha! fenn himself called them “useless clues”

          But when he says; an 80 yr old is not going down and up and down canyon.. that’s no help at all?
          Tells us word meaning and definitions were used to create the poem [ you can look up the interview ] changing the poem many times, doesn’t give pause for thought.
          LOL but Plain English is just Simple English.
          We don’t bother about thinking of these ATFs?

          • Seeker, you said-

            if we don’t attempt to answer those reasonable question… well… your basically stuck on the first idea you come up with.
            From what I’ve read, that is what your theory entails for anyone that goes that route.

            The searcher goes to their wwwh which should be known beforehand. Then instead of moving closer to the tc like how clues are defined to do by f, these searchers should stay at their wwwh and observe the landscape for something to materialize further for their solution.

            If nothing materializes then they will forever be stuck there with their initial thought…never to progress.

          • Seeker,

            I don’t comment on hypothetical stories, of course ‘tarry scant” and other words some may not understand and need the use of a dictionary, but not for others.

            I never considered those ATF about where not to look as a clues, and yes it gave me pause the poem was changed many times, but that doesn’t influence me at all in locating the treasure.

            By the way “analyze” is what If, (imagination) then learning comes into play, without learning your not going to get anywhere.

          • FD,

            Any theory can fail if it’s not the right theory. That’s when the drawing board comes out of the closet.

            I never implied a theory can be tested at home. However, we need certain things before even going. The first clue reference seems to be a must. But even before that, don’t we need a location we search? and why that place?

            It doesn’t make sense to me to try and search any and every conceivable WWsH… or worse yet.. being at the correct first clue with the possible wrong process.

            Something need to put searcher there, with the idea of what is done when there. I can see the poem doing the second part. But what of the first part?
            Like you said, beforehand.

            LOL how lucky were those early searcher to have the correct location and two deciphered clues. Or might they had known those two clues ‘references’ to be correct, but not “why” they needed to be there?

            So if knowing “why” was/is a factor… Knowing what the clue’s reference is, and where it is, doesn’t matter much to anyone, if we don’t know why this place seems so critical to nail down.

            What was the comment? oh right! ~ if you can’t find the chest go back to clue one.
            A common sense idea; go back and try again, line of thinking?
            Or, go back and ponder, why here-?- this first clue. The dwelling part fenn mentions when talking about the first clue

          • Seeker, pretty much what I said. So the searcher will be stuck at their wwwh.

          • Your answer for when a searcher doesn’t find anything materialize from their wwwh is to stay there until it does and not change their attempts.

            The traditional way says it’s ok to change what you are attempting if nothing materializes. The thing being emphasized is when nothing is figured out more once at their wwwh. Or if something is figured out further, don’t go there.

          • FD,

            The searcher needs more info than just stay put. That seems to be in stanza 3.

            So, it’s not like a searcher is just sitting there forever hoping a little guy with a green top hat to shows up.

            Any theory will fail if the poem is not understood fully. But that doesn’t mean we can simply walk through a solve nor just sit and wait without knowing what to wait for.

          • FD,

            Let me put it this way;
            You have an engine block and all its part.
            You know how to put the parts to the block, but if you don’t know certain information… gaps, timing, torque etc. You can still put it all together. But it will never run.
            The idea here is to see how the poem works. As far as I can tell, all searchers are just putting parts to parts… but nothing is precise.
            All I’m doing is going back to the owners manual looking for the information to get that engine to purr.

          • Dal – I respectfully disagree with your belief that the first stanza describes WWWH. I think we sometimes overlook the importance of tense. Forrest says, in past tense “have” gone alone, then immediately in the next stanza switches to present tense with “begin”, “take”, “put in”, etc. I believe the real-time, present tense journey begins with WWWH where you can literally follow the clues on a path to the area where the treasure is while you are in the Rockies searching. As I “have” gone alone in there describes 10 years ago when the chest was hidden and is not directly connected to the present journey. WWWH will be confirmed when the 2nd, 3rd, etc. clues match up so precisely that you will know your WWWH MUST be correct, so no need for Forrest to describe it in the first stanza.
            Likewise, if you’ve “been” wise(past tense) describes how you should have already located the blaze on a topo map/google earth before now. He didn’t haphazardly switch tenses several times in the poem. Every switch in tense is extremely important. In summation, while your are on your BOTG search beginning at WWWH, driving down the canyon, putting in BTHOB, where the end is ever drawing nigh, etc. you should know that “I HAVE gone alone in there” and “if you’ve BEEN wise” are things that have already occurred or SHOULD have occurred in the case of finding the blaze, and you will not encounter these things in your present tense BOTG search.

          • I’ve gone back and forth on whether or not there is anything important in the first stanza, whether it’s something related to WWWH or otherwise. Both arguments seem equally plausible to me. At the moment, I agree with dal that there may be something important nestled within that first stanza; possibly even the elusive “word that is key”. But who knows for sure? Definitely not me.

          • @ Blex – Just a reminder about FF’s comment of “There are few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”

            Such comment seems to support the concept that stanza #1 of the poem should not be discounted since it is made up of words that collectively add up to more than a few.

          • Bowmarc – That’s a good point. That quote also places a tremendous amount of emphasis on the poem itself in finding the treasure, which is as it should be IMHO.

          • Seeker (and others),
            The actual quote about an 80 year old man making 2 trips in a canyon is below:

            ff- And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. ff

            So, if he made two trips, wouldn’t a trip be both ways? So, if he says he made a trip (both ways), then wouldn’t come up and go down again imply he went up, then down, up then down again? That is how I read it.

            The poem does not distinguish PUT IN point going to NPFTM/HLAWH as meaning going down a canyon, it could be up from there (No Paddle UP Your Creek).

            Assuming a solve that includes a drive DOWN a canyon from WWWH to the PUT IN, from the PUT IN below HoB, everyone seems to comment about going 2x down-up and not 2x up-down.

            I hope I am making sense since I have wondering about this for some time.

          • Title2AU,

            But what of the other ATFs?

            Sure, IF all we had was this ATF to work with, we could bend it a bit to make it work for a driving involved solution.
            Yet, we have; [in part]
            He followed the clues when he hid the chest.
            Made two trips from his car.
            Walked less than a mile.
            Took the same route; car and hide.
            Tells us we should be able to walk several hour to our solves.
            And, the comment you posted.
            [As well as a few others ATFs]

            The first question is; Why would it be a big deal for an 80 yr old to drive down or even up anywhere? Only, fenn repeats do go where an 80 yr old can’t go.
            Doesn’t that imply the entire solve? or are we to just think that is a smaller part of the solve?

            Walking is only mentioned… it’s all we have to go on, and fenn talks about Miles and Hours [indicators] involved for him and for us in two different comments. [regardless of why or what provoked] the made the comments…
            I would think they both have to be factual coming from the guy who created all this.

            To bend these comments, we would have to assume the walking part of a solve, comes later… ok I get that Idea.

            Until we add those ‘other ATFs’ in to the mix… People figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure chest… yet we have been told only the first two clues were solved.
            [for a time period of 7 years, give or take]

            How can searcher drive solved clues and ‘many’ ‘several’ ‘more than several’-searchers who have indicated the first two clues, managed to walk by the chest without having a third clue solved-?- in a partial driving solve.

            Scenario; they are at WWWH and drive the canyon down, or even, in the canyon and drive through it… How did they managed to stop at the same location?
            They would have needed a third clue correctly deciphered to cause them to stop and get out of the car and “walk” by the chest. {even if, it was only two different searchers}.

            Reading one or two ATFs isn’t going to give us a logical outcome. We should review all of the related comments.
            IMO. the only way a driving solve from WWsH, driving a canyon in any manner, we would need a third clue to cause us to stop driving and walk by the hidey spot.
            I never seen the third clue being told of, that it was solved. [ during the first 7 year period, when all those comments were made ].

            However, here’s a simpler scenario. Fenn drive to a location and parks. He then takes 1/2 the load [ because of weight ] and walks to the location of where the clues are at. This process could be a little as approx. 1/4 mile one way to that location [ a bit more than a full miles for all walking with two trips ].

            He then follows the clues he created [ all of them ] walks back to the car for the second load and back to the location.. walking right to the hide. {What we don’t know in this scenario is; how much time or distance is needed for the solve to be completed}
            But we do have ‘some’ information that we can calculate, to give us ‘an idea’ of this process, at the clue’s location.

            I don’t see anything in either the poem, nor the AFTs that say or implies; where fenn parks is the starting point.

            For me, it was simply the closest area to get to, by car… then… he walked to the location of the clues and started the task. It’s not a hard concept to understand.
            Look at it this way; You arrive to an airport and park in the parking lot. You then have to walk to the building [1300′ away]. Now you start by entering the location, go to through all the desk/counter points, drop luggage off point, security check points, to loading platform and board the aircraft.

            Did you really start your task in the parking lot? It was only the closest place to park and leave the car.
            But here’s the question; if you have too much to carry in one trip… you would need to rinse and repeat, right??

          • In terms of the above mentioned [simpler scenario]…
            It may be worth analyzing the logistics of how Fenn planned to travel to the place where he parked the car, in a debilitated state of health, and then proceed to the special place? Doug did mention in the forward of OUAW that the last clue would be where he parked his car. Forget the mention of the Denver Museum as I doubt that was the actual place.
            This presumed short distance… in light of his [time and travel] comments… presents a limiting factor to how Fenn expected to conceal what he had done and not expect folks to quickly find the treasure had he actually carried out his original plan.

          • Seeker,
            Thank you for taking the time to respond.

            You asked:
            Did you really start your task in the parking lot? It was only the closest place to park and leave the car.
            But here’s the question; if you have too much to carry in one trip… you would need to rinse and repeat, right??

            Yes, the parking lot would be the canyon down below HoB in my solve, my house would be WWWH in your scenario. I am not going all the way home again because I had lots of luggage in my car in the parking lot and needed 2 trips to my car. Rinse and repeat to the parking lot (below HoB) not rinse and repeat home (WWWH).

            So maybe I am not understanding you completely or you are not understanding my explanation. My solve would be, if you are at WWWH, take the CANYON DOWN driving to below HoB because it is TOO FAR TO WALK. Park at a location BELOW HoB. Take ½ the treasure from your car, walk/hike/climb/step (ATF about prevacation), UP (not down) another canyon (not down the same canyon) towards HoB (NPFTM, NPUYC, HLAWH) until you get to the blaze. Stash ½ the treasure then go back to the car to retrieve and stash the rest. No need to go back to WWWH again. I know this topic has been covered before.

            My main focus was on going up and down twice, not going down and up twice.

          • Ken ~’It may be worth analyzing the logistics of how Fenn planned to travel to the place where he parked the car, in a debilitated state of health, and then proceed to the special place?’

            That is interesting in-of-it-self. But do we really know the full idea behind that?

            We know fenn ‘later’ -after ruining the story, idea – he purchased the chest. Would he have that added weight in the original plan to go and die at his location [est, about 20 lbs]?
            In some information over the years he said he started to collect items he wanted in the chest [ for the challenge ] How much more weight was added=?- for the purpose of the lure to get folks motivated?

            Point being; would there be a need for two trips at all..IF.. the original plan actually took place? [ mainly because of ’42 extra lbs’ needed to be carried ].

            Then we have fenn saying at age 87 he could go back, or at least he thinks he might be able to have. [ does that include returning with the weight? or only assumed.]
            I think the Debilitating Factor, you raise, might not be a huge problem, as we might have thought or think it *should be* or was.

            Just out of curiosity… if a person with a loss of 50% of their lung compacity, and CODP, paralyzed below the knees.. walking with leg braces, and is up in age [ say 60 ] would tell you they could walk a mile… and to be fair, didn’t intend a return trip.. as fenn’s first thought was.
            Would you say that’s would be equivalent to a person with; two good legs and lungs and having the type of cancer fenn had? {assuming before any treatments were started… chemo and radiation that can cause extreme, uncontrollable fatigue, lack of strength and other issues. {but why would you if your plan was not to let cancer take you.. having only a 20% change of living, never the less, a full recovery, idea to work with}

            Determination is a great motivator when a person as the idea… *this is what I ‘need’ to do*… compared to the idea of something to motivate others to do for a fun challenge, and a valuable prize vs. death as the alternative motivator.

            I’d be hard pressed to try and figure out what one’s capabilities are in a ‘need to do’ situation. Especially, when it will be the last thing to do.

            That’s my analogy of the scenario, anyways

          • Seeker…as expected you skipped right over the intended what if.
            Regardless of the circumstances…Fenn’s health or otherwise…. The last clue still remains. Where his car would be found…unless you believe he intended to drop out of the sky.
            This raises quite a few [what if] scenarios worth at least thinking about because we do know for a fact that the hidey place is/was the same as originally intended. Certain characteristics could be entertained in terms of the geography that Fenn likes to mention on occasion. What would make the treasure and his remains difficult to find if he carried out the original plan? Especially given the time and distance limitations he has talked of? And sure… I am aware that folks go missing all the time and sometimes are not found. In this case we have other known factors to help…not in a dangerous place, a place where an 80 year old[not Clark Kent] traveled, not in water, not up and down and up and down a canyon, a place where you should/could be comfortable taking your children, take your family out camping and turn over logs. Or not…

          • *** *** *** ***
            FF – “And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.” ff

            Title2gold commented – “So, if he made two trips (both ways), then wouldn’t come up and go down again imply he went up, then down, up then down again? That is how I read it.

            “My main focus was on going *up and down* twice, [as opposed to] going *down and up* twice.”
            *** *** *** ***

            Hey-O Glen –

            The context of the ff quote you started with was the disastrous start of the summer of ’17. One of the most-publicized events was a searcher attempting a dangerous descent, with fatal results.

            So this and several other “80-year-old-man” type quotes are of the “Safety-First” type. Ff was in no mood to be sneaky, and I sincerely doubt that he was trying to cleverly communicate the reverse of what he said in the quote you cited. He was basically saying “quit jack-assin’ around out there, you’ll put your eye out.”

            Now that doesn’t preclude the rest of your scenario since UP and DOWN are both in the poem (at least as long as the elevation gains/losses are fairly mellow), but I don’t think you can peg it to a tricky reading of that particular ATF.


          • ken ~’Seeker…as expected you skipped right over the intended what if.’

            Not really…skipping anything. Actually, Not at All.

            You see, if this was going to play out as first plan… don’t you think all the family would know he was going to go?
            Or do you think he would just going?
            Very serious question.

            I’m of the idea, someone close… maybe not his girls or Mrs. Fenn… would have likely taken fenn where he wanted.
            Again, *at that time*, we don’t know what he planned to ‘taking with him’
            Maybe all it was, was his favorite fishing reel and rod.
            The chest wasn’t purchased until the story was ruined. Some, if not many items may have been collected after that time as well. And I can lose the posse, anyone, on my trail IF I really wanted to.

            You’re laying a lot of odds on WhatIF that *involve the chase,* and not what was *actually taking place when the cancer was told of*, in 1988 and days and weeks later with family members… other than what fenn told us ~ The influence of his family leaned towards medical treatment.

            While its fun to think about the WhatIF.

            Are we really going to dismiss the fact that; we don’t know a lot of things that happened or how those things would be different… IF the original plan took place in [ lets say ] 1988 or 99… and there was no real planning to the *extent* it turnout, after two more decades? Why would there be a need to hide his car, only from his family and possible closest friends.
            Was there a poem done, a book for the poem, all the things in the chest we are told of?

            I’m hard pressed to assume what coulda or shoulda during those days on a private matter of suicide.. for another person and their family.
            All we really know is, the original plan was ruined…and… the *chase challenge* was born.

            What you might be skipping over is… this concept of intent to control how one dies, is not a new concept.
            Anyone thinking about this [ as being *in control of your death* with that person’s needs and desires and others closely involved] take a lot into consideration.
            Do we know all of fenn’s considerations, before the story was ruined.
            Speculating those WhatIF, is a huge rabbit hole for the *challenge presented*

            IMO of of course.

          • RE the Original Scenario

            There’s this description of the scenario from Margie Goldsmith in Feb 2011 (before the first search season)

            ” . . . after a long bout of chemo and radiation, the doctors told him the cancer could come back. Fenn, worried the cancer would recur, said to himself –

            “If it comes back, I’m going to grab a pocketful of sleeping pills, take a treasure chest filled with treasure and a copy of my bio; and I’m going to walk out into the desert. Sometime they’ll find my bones and the treasure, but my bio will be inside the box, so at least they’ll know who I was.” *** *** *** ***

            Not sure what else is out there from ff re the early shape and intent (not something I ever really researched or collected on), not sure when it became a poem/puzzle.


          • Jak,

            I’ll add for a shorter post;
            Page 141 TTOTC.

            My life was on hold…
            Then out of no where…
            They nursed my weakened confidence…

            From your post I’ll add a part;
            “If it comes back, I’m going to grab a pocketful of sleeping pills, take a treasure chest filled with treasure and a copy of my bio; and I’m going to walk out into the desert.

            This is what I’m talking about.

            What was going on before the “challenge was born” was stifled by the family.

            When Ken asked about the WhatIF, he seemed to think I didn’t give much thought to the WhatIF… seemingly as he “expected”
            But this whatIF he presented has been on my mind since day one. And I would gather more than anyone on this blog. In the same time period fenn was brewing over the idea.. controlling how you die and your desires not to do as others say it should be.. I did they same.
            The concept is not new… and we don’t know enough about that time before the birth of the challenge. Any whatIF on how he would have done it… never developed. there are no bones to be found.

            The words in your post mentioned; in a debilitated state of health.
            There is no mention of this before or after or even now. Only the thought should something happen with an illness… We have nothing to judge that state with.
            My response was directly to both fenn cancer and the birth of the challenge and how they collided, but were not merged.
            In an honest answer, which was my intent.. there’s no WhatIF. A WhatIF is a possibility / be the case… not a conjecture.

          • Well Seeker…. you should read Doug’s foreword OUAW that describes the plan that Fenn told him about. Doug describes the chest filled and weighing over 40 pounds in the early 1990’s with items being swapped out over the years and later Doug comes to believe that Fenn is “dead serious” about carrying out his plan if the cancer came back. It did not obviously and I should not have added any health concerns in my initial post as that clouded my point. The last clue would be where his car was found…which makes me ask questions how that would have panned out or have an impact on how he could have made it work. Pretty basic. Personally I believe the guy[Fenn] and the guy he let write that information in his book[Doug]… that he would have carried out his plan as advertised.

  30. Seeker… my post yesterday was less a broadside, and more a parting shot over the bow, as I had obligations to attend to at the time. I’ll reiterate again that I understand exactly where you’re coming from with your [TAKEITIN] theory. Also… There are no posted [solves] that spell out this type of approach…at least that I know of. One of my first Chase solutions was exactly what you are describing…I have since titled it The Veni, Vidi, Vici Solution. I came I saw I conquered…. nothing.
    After figuring out what I thought was wwwh that had a canyon feature I then resorted to studying GE and paper maps in an effort to discover anything that could fit the criteria of moving towards anything that may be defined as a HOB. In this process I discovered that there happened to be a known vantage point that allowed a viewing of the entire area… and also aligned with the take it in words[viewing] in the poem AHA !
    Short story…. that is how that phase of my Chase developed 8 years ago. I ran with that idea to the point of putting it to practice on the ground and actually acted it out. To my dismay…the genius of the whole scheme quickly went down the tubes after the hard reality of the inaccuracies and lack of precision became obvious, once on-site. That first trip with this particular idea turned into a great experience and actually inspired me to refine my approach with the knowledge that distance was the enemy when trying to replicate the armchair theory to the actual survey on the ground. Another attempt was made in this fashion, with a smaller visual interpretation and some promising results, however… certain ATF and more comments from Fenn at that time came out and it became more evident[to me] that the clues[some of them] are actual places that one needs to move to and through in order to proceed. It is extremely difficult to recall exactly all of the details of how and why I came to the conclusions then… but I do know that I revisit some of those ideas every time I think of something new.
    My suggestion to anyone is that anything is a viable option until you personally give it a try…or at least act it out in your mind…before taking the [ad hominem] approach to refuting it…..

    • Ken,

      You were a few steps ahead of me in the testing phase.

      You had an area to go to, you had an idea of a WWsH reference. Be that as it may… The question is, did you have the right area? This is why I relate back to the comment ~ certainty of the location beforehand – for the path to be direct.

      We should have great confidence in how we decide where the search take place. A state, or something to that affect, is not going to cut it the way I see it… we both know where those ideas come from in the poem… and there is at least four choices. That doesn’t sound certain at all.

      But here’s my question; How did you decipher stanzas 3?
      I don’t need details of what thing are. I’m curious to how you read the stanza.
      Did you use that information as places? [ be them seen or stomped out ]
      I think this stanza is not about places, even though it sounds like they should be. I think they are cleverly written instructions [ the planning part of the task ]. However, I can see why others don’t like this idea. It does remove the thought of 9 clues being ‘mostly’ of places. Yet, as of now, we don’t know how many physical places are represented.

      I can see WWsH a place. I can see canyon a place, just not a place to go to. I can see hoB as a place. I can see HLnW as a place or two… I can also see HLnWH as telling what WWsH is as a description [ and a couple of other ideas to work with]… which only really works in an observational solve method. LOL it’s not like I don’t dissect my own theories.
      That could be four or five places [ and all within a relatively small area] I mean, the canyon could be 1300 feet away…a 1/4 mile… right? Not far, but too far to walk, in saying don’t go there even though it is close.

      BUT, the kicker for me was to think about stanza three more.
      I thought the same as most… C’mon Seeker how hard is it to see something right in front of you? How could folks with deciphered clue’s references / places, be on site, and not see them? They could have…
      Not unlike the mind set of thinking about “take it in” as to look, needed its different definition. “IT” became: begin observing at the first clue, where WWsH.
      “Put in” using the same *line of thinking,* [ hopefully the right thoughts, idea ] and its meaning of looking… stanza 2 didn’t seem to align with stanza 3, because I was still thinking I needed more places to fill in more clues.

      The simple question was: Why do I have to have force more places? Heck I have 4 or 5 now. So I began to think how the rest of the poem could play-out with this theory. {not an easy task to clear the idea of stomping or having 9 places needed, from my original first thinking of things and pretending I’m following the little voice on my GPS. Yet I can see stanza 3 as instruction on the “planning” aspect. Some thoughts I shared, other would be stupid to share, IF this method was fenn design.

      So I would be very interested in what / how you worked out stanza 3 to be.

      Here’s the kicker though. Someone, much smarter than I, might be able to determined all the factors needed, and ‘might’ be able to find a blaze using a map or GE If they can do the calculating. Zap, in his specialty field, might have a chance… but to finish / complete the poem, in the field is where we need to be to observe it all.

      imo, we need the idea of, certainty of the location [where the clues are at] before we can figure out their references of the “path”; a course of action or conduct; a strategy; a plan…

      Reading and building from the blueprint template, what is needed to be done… not so much physical movement of a searcher.

      • Hi Seeker,

        Sometime ago I posted several ideas of mine for the locations we have to search or identify in order to get closer to the chest, but many other searchers laughed at my idea. But since you seems to have a similar idea about the marrying the clues to the locations, I’m repeating my idea again here.

        My theory is this: out of 9 clues Fenn mentioned for the search of the chest only FIVE clues refer to the locations and the other 4 clues are additional descriptions of the locations and/or the necessary actions you have to follow at the locations given with the clues. Only FIVE locations. And those locations are: WWWH, CD, HOB, NPFTM, and BLAZE.

        If you could nail down WWWH, the CD (canyon down) is right there to find which is associated with WWWH, and once you’ve located the NPFTM (no place for the meek) the blaze is right at the END of that, so there are only THREE locations now you have to find. Once you identify these three locations, the other 4 clues are self-explanatory, IMO.

        — MK

        • I only have 3 places to marry to a map… the rest is travelogue. WWWH, the BELOW place. the END.

        • MK,

          It could very well be just that.

          Although I personally would need answers to how NF,BTFTW relates. It would still need something know of, or it’s a waste of s line amongst clues.

          Let’s skip that inquiry for a sec. Why do you consider NPFTM to be a place?

          Can’t a situation be considered the same?

          • FD,
            I don’t think it has anything to do with a conventional creek. I use to think of creek as a simple idea of one meaning ‘ a narrow passage ‘ { at one time I did think of it as a stream, as well. }

            Now, and in the attempt to understand the poem as a visual task. It gives up a time of year. [don’t over think it]
            The first two lines of stanza 3 explains what is coming near, or it can be said, what is ending and what is approaching, and it’s not physical.. but time related as well.

            IMO this is the information for the planning stage idea of the solve.

            This leaves HLnWH. A few thoughts can occur here.
            ~It can relate to the first clue, being describe as HL N WH… a part of learning what WWsH is, idea.
            ~Could relate to the blaze, or hoB or hoB as the blaze.

            The consideration is the “Just” part of the line.
            It can mean :
            ~exactly. { speaks for it self }
            ~in the immediate past. {which works nicely to the thought, but not a rock solid idea of… yep that’s what it means}
            ~ entirely………….. etc. {encompassing all that perceive this line}

            Understanding the correct usage idea, might be known of when on site, but we should have some ideas of the meanings that haves a connection to the prior information.
            The contiguous, idea.
            Maybe as “adjoining” line of thinking.

            This is what I mean by how words in the poem could be the idea…*It’s not what I say, It’s what you think I said.*
            {It’s not who you are, it’s who they think you are, idea.}
            The illusion we create when we read those “plain english” words…[ for the first few times, or 500 times ] attempting to over simplify them right at the get go.

            LOL that’s probably more answer than you wanted, but I can’t answer just a single line and have it make sense without some explanation of the thought process. Especially in this theory.

          • Hi Seeker,
            I think NPFTM and “your creek” refer the same path or a trail. HLandWH is a additional description of the trail.
            — MK

        • Thanks, MK.
          Your search algorithm looks very interesting. I like your approach for selection of clues to locations and descriptions of locations. Indeed, searcher that cracked 3 locations (WWWH, CD, HOB) most likely can approach TC within 200-500 feet. Then he/she needs to crack BLAZE. According to Fenn the blaze is a single physical object with unknown size, color and face orientation (“blaze face” is not oriented to any of North, South, East or West directions). In one comment JDA said very simple thing: even if you are within 200 feet from TC and you need to find 10X10X5 inch bronze box that not visible by naked eyes (I like his term “sepulchered”) – it will take many days to find it.
          The circle with radius 200 feet has square = 125663 square feet. Even if you spend just 1 minute for each square feet you will search this area 2100 hour or 87 days. It’s practically impossible without finding the BLAZE. IMO but finding the blaze will most difficult part of the chase. As far as we know Forrest have tuned the poem during 15 years with only one purpose – to make “IT’S DIFFICULT BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND”.
          At the same time Forrest said: “And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, “what took me so long?”(10/10/12). Forrest also said: “Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination.”
          It’s already 9 years from chase start and maybe some searchers already 9 years in chase. What took them so long to crack first 3-4 clues? Maybe the absence of imagination?

          • Andy S ~ ‘JDA said very simple thing: even if you are within 200 feet from TC and you need to find 10X10X5 inch bronze box that not visible by naked eyes (I like his term “sepulchered”) – it will take many days to find it.’

            What about fenn’s answer to a Q&A… if you can find the blaze the answer [ of the distance to the chest ] will be obvious?
            If we didn’t know earlier searchers came to a 200′ point of the chest, what footage do we use then to figure out square inches of a spot for the chest that is out of sight?
            We had 500 ‘ before the 200’… we had nothing before those ATFs.
            In this idea of… many days spent looking in a radius around the blaze… we don’t have any footage to go by.

            LOL if 1000’ radius – that’s 14,000 plus square inches, or in days… well… now we’re counting years of discovery from the blaze to the hidey spot, and not days.

          • Hi Andy S.,

            I think you and Seeker are following in the same line of thinking as me. And I think this kind of thinking points to the right direction. I’ll add a couple of my answers to your questions.

            My interpretation about the Blaze:
            It is of one color (it also fits to the overall color scheme of the rainbow), a rather large geological formation, can be seen from all directions (Fenn said as you quoted “blaze face is not oriented to any of North, South, East or West”), and somehow is hidden from the view when you take the NPFTM and walk toward the end of it. That’s why Fenn wrote in the poem “If you’ve been WISE and found the BLAZE” on the first line of stanza #4.

            200 feet from the TC is NOT the end of NPFTM. The end is a lot closer than that, say 10 ft or so. Once you get there (I mean, at the end) you’ll immediately understand what I mean by that.

            I said it many times, and I say it again here. If you’re confident about your solve, you can go directly to the end and follow the last action to retrieve the chest (the third line of the stanza #6). This is the only time you need to be on your BOTG. But as Fenn also mentioned you have to start from WWWH to get to the end physically. And once you retrieve the chest you have to follow the same NPFTM to below HOB. There are no shortcuts.

            IMO the reason why the chest hasn’t been found yet is that most searchers has the imagination, but they are trying to interpret the poem in rather complex ways, i.e., they try to fit their solution to the poem, instead of fitting the poem to the locations. Simple reading, simple understanding, and simple interpretation of the lines in the poem like kids do is all it takes, IMHO.

            — MK

      • Seeker… Initially my idea was more of a visual method from the one vantage point. Identifying the places from a distance until I was satisfied enough to actually then go to that location. From wwh, canyon down, to a suitable distance to what I thought was hob. At that time the research I did offered a meek place that headed up a dry creek bed a rather insignificant distance to an area that looked promising, to then find a blaze of some sort. That was my first holy crap moment in this Chase. That was an armchair dry run… 2500 miles to a blaze that I posted here in the book of blazes… the small owl looking rock feature with the white blemish below it in a sea of brown looking stone. You have to imagine my shock at the time because there are no words to describe the time lapse to fruition over that travel distance. I spent a few days there and even camped at the spot to see it at different times of the day. I found a couple of fairly old arrow heads there and some other doo dads from really old to modern. The area below the blaze was actually a semi covered rock shelter that had been utilized off and on for a long time… but not in many years. No treasure chest is the verdict on that in the end. I’ve been back there once… just because… on another episode, and still marvel at how I got there sometimes… but the poem has changed drastically for me since then as new insights from Fenn’s comments have popped up and allowed me a different perspective. The third stanza is a one-way ticket on a spaceship if you want to leave the poem…

        • I agree with your third stanza comment.
          I think [ no matter how this plays out ] it’s critical to what is needed “by” a searcher. I just see that differently at this point in time.

          My biggest concern is “from there it’s…”
          It doesn’t seem to say move to a place, it just says from a place.
          ” It is…no place for the meek” it seems to explains a type of emotion, rather than, an another place… even with the word ‘place’.
          “It is or It’s” doesn’t say move. It seem to describe a feeling.
          It could [ for example and point ] saying It’s no place for tall people. That could imply a place.

          But “for the meek” as very little wiggle room. It’s a personality trait or attitude. So, I started to think… what in the mountains would make someone be a bit unease.
          Yep, we have the critter ideas, snakes, Porkies, No big deal… the puddy cats and teddy bears, Who doesn’t love Silvester and Yogi? Sometimes unknown weather changes with no or little warning Ok, bad luck can be controlled… the list goes on. But what do they all have in common when one thing always changes? Darkness.
          You put most, in the dead of night, with only star light to see by… thing change drastically. Sound amplify. LoL, ever hear a squirrel moving about on dry leaves? A babbling creek can sound like a raging river echoing through the trees, wolves and coyotes howling, screech owl… Images moving that could be just a branch or a bush, but look like 9′ yeti.

          Add being alone and not used to these sounds… the mind can run a muck in the dead of night.
          But why would this idea be plausible?

          Well, IF we need to observe “and plan” – an early morning sunrise might do the trick. “the end is ever drawing nigh” The end of night to day… *In with the new out with the old,* line of thinking. The end of “It is no place for the meek”… yet we have not moved, have we-?- in this scenario.

          So is meek a place? sure, it is a place we are told to “begin it [ observing ]and find what it is needs to be found [ hoB?], and wait till morning light.
          You can find these places at night, right?
          But when do I need to plan for that? I believe that is also in stanza 3.

          Now you might ask, Does this related to Brave and in the wood? and your effort will be worth the cold?… imo.. yes and yes. Only brave and in the wood might be something other than bravery, and wood is not woods. IMO ” brave and in the wood * is a specific place*… and we should already be at this place.

          I also have an idea for the ‘answers’ in the poem… only they don’t act as one.
          Not like {ex} cookies and milk.
          But one has to do with “alone in there” the other is more about why he must leave [ go ].

          IF you can’t budge from the idea of stomping mode only… this theory / method will never work. you’ll leave the poem, walk by everything and not know you had any clue deciphered.

          Hypothetically… theoretically… different methodology . The question is? is it the right adjustment? The right thoughts?
          The old method isn’t doing much, even IF four clues might have been solved.

          If it is correct or close to it.. lol… it kinda sucks when it’s the 28th of June.

          • Hi Seeker;

            A agree, it kinda sucks that it is the 28th of June, and Indulgence is still secreted somewhere- in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado or New MExico. Wish I could say that I am on my way to Wyoming, but can not say that tonight – 🙁 JDA

          • Mr. Fenn,
            Summer is here. How is your gut feeling? Hopeful
            My gut feeling is wavering.f

            I found the comment about the Gut Feeling Wavering.. But I’m not sure of the date it was stated-?- posted. LOL I almost want to say… exactly one year ago today.

  31. The “pie” thing should be seriously considered as an important hint. When understood, one
    may find that two “pies” can be observed simultaneously. As always, IMO.

  32. I’ve been ruminating, kinda like making pickles or steeping tea. WHAT IF everyone detailed their failed search…specific areas. No need to explain why they went there or the methodology of their solve, just the place. After 10 years you’ll think we could start narrowing this down. How helpful would it be toward a solution?

    • Sean;

      I have been searching my same area for 43 months – 29 trips. I am not about to disclose where this General Search Area is – Thanks anyway 🙂 JDa

      • JDA – I don’t understand. Why keep revisiting the same general area if you can’t walk to it confidently the first time?

        • Hi E.C.;

          I guess that I am a slow learner. It also has to do with a “Big Picture solve” area, evolving into a Small Area Visual Solve” area. Macro to Mini approach. It took several “Big Picture” searches for me to learn exactly where my “Small Area” search area was. I followed a number of rabbit holes. I was confident that I was in the correct “General Area”, but had difficulty in narrowing it down to a much smaller search area. Once this smaller area was identified, there were several different approaches possible for how and where to “focus” in on a very small area.

          A number of BotG used up before I settled in on the “Visual” search vs a BotG search. ANY search will ultimately result in putting BotG to find and retrieve Indulgence.

          In ANY location in the Rockies, there are a LOT of places to secret a 10″ X 10″ X 5″ box. Even in a circle that is 200′ in diameter. Lots of logs, lots or rocks, lots of trees, lots of crevices. SOMETHING in the poem HAS to help in narrowing down the vast number of possibilities. I hope that I have (at last) found the knob on my microscope that will bring the true place into focus. I think that I now have that knob in my grasp – now to turn it in the right direction. 🙂 JDA

          • JDA, definitely you are the champion in terms of visiting one area 🙂 Indeed, it is very difficultly to catch moving shadow. Forrest poem coded so well that nobody even solved what is hoB. Maybe some searchers think that they had solved WWWH and CD but didn’t crack hoB.
            Question: So no one is looking near the right spot?
            Answer: No one is looking AT the right spot. f
            IMO, but you will search at the right spot only if you know what is hoB. But even if you know hoB it will be not easy to find TC.
            Maybe combination of TTOTC and poem will help.

          • Well, I guess that is nice to be the champion of something 🙂 So, what is the hoB? Could the correct hoB also be the blaze, or visa-versa? Who knows? Not me – today – 🙂 JDA

          • Hi JDA,
            I’m really sorry to say this, but if you could not find THE correct blaze and/or the chest in 30 BOTGs I think your “Big Picture” solve and/or “Small Area” solve are not right, IMO. Fenn said if you have the correct solve you can go to the chest confidently knowing the chest is there waiting for you. Of course I don’t have any idea where your solve area is, but if I were you I would give up your solve and start fresh. If I were you……
            — MK

          • MK;

            Thanks for your post – but you are not me, and I certainly am not you. Good luck with your approach, and I will stick with mine until such time as I decide that it is just not in my area. When that happens, I will hang up my spurs. Again, good luck to Ya’ JDA

          • Those who can – do.

            Those who can’t – tell others what they should or shouldn’t do.

            Some search. Some pontificate.

          • Andy S, ~’ Forrest poem coded so well that nobody even solved what is hoB. Maybe some searchers think that they had solved WWWH and CD but didn’t crack hoB.’

            First, to be factual, I’ll say we don’t know if that has been done. Not all searchers post or e-mail fenn.

            However, fenn has commented on the first four clues solved. [ you can read that comment and make your own decision ]. So IF hoB is clue 3 or 4, in counting order, fenn seems to imply hoB could have been solved, by his comment.

          • Seeker,

            You said:
            Maybe some searchers think that they had solved WWWH and CD but didn’t crack hoB.’

            Or, they cracked HoB, but missed the full clue, “put in below HoB.” Solved first two clues and went past the rest.

    • How helpful would it be toward a solution?

      I don’t think it would matter. In fact it has been done to an extent. Folks gave up there general search areas, or the state they concentrate on, or a specific clue reference, etc etc… fun little surveys done over the years… and results were posted on web sites.

      Not to mention, just this site alone, all the dedicated pages / threads Dal made available for searchers to tell their search stories, theories, locations and process. [probably in the hundreds by now, since the site was started].
      We see them posted all the time.
      So, your idea is already happening, if you think about.
      In the past couple weeks alone:
      “My church is in the mountains..”
      “River bathing is best…”
      Are two off the top of my head.

      • True that. JDA’s comment struck a nerve also. My initial searches stemmed from a common start point. Although I went way too far afield, I ended up restarting and may now have some answers. Suppose the only failed quest is the one we are not on anymore.

      • Seeker you said “However, fenn has commented on the first four clues solved. [ you can read that comment and make your own decision ]. So IF hoB is clue 3 or 4, in counting order, fenn seems to imply hoB could have been solved, by his comment.”

        There is a caveat to that from the Lure video, it was about the ORDER of the clues were not correct if you listen closely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9czRin3Tas

        What the stumbling block is is Home of Brown, and what makes the most relevant sense is that it is a reference point IMO, it could be a co ordinate that sits many miles away but is an elevation or Longitude, say the same one that he parachuted into in SE Asia, which is by the way recently been revealed in detail, right down to a football field in area. Now why should that be important to someone who had a near death experience twice?

        I choose Leadville Co, it has the Rockies most famous Brown’s home and it is at 10,200′ elevation …. it is the exact longitude as the Karst in Laos, where ff was rescued and it has the same co ordinate as Browns Canyon, 106 degrees, now the backward bike says the numbers after the 106.???? might be his old home address in Temple, after all his church is in the mountains, Temple is 1413 North Main 106.1413 or the marker of WWWH/\. Call me crazy or call me a fox, but that is no coincidence IMHO.


        • This is the Q&A…

          ~Nov 2, 2015 ~

          Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?
          Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.

          • Seeker, thanks for the citation. Maybe Forrest gave us some hint here by saying that solving clue #4 will bring searcher within about 200 feet to TC.
            However, Forrest not certain about that someone solved #4 clue (the hoB IMO). Maybe the reason is simple – nobody send him correct decoding of hoB. They just were roaming around hoB i.e. according to Forrest it was just “an aberration”.
            Well, at least they correctly solved WWWH, TIITCD and NFBTFBW. But again since Forrest never comment searcher’s email 200 feeters will never know that they have solved 3 first clues correctly.
            Anyway, IMO but when Forrest will say us that hoB was decoded/solved we will know that TC will be discovered very soon.

          • *** *** *** ***
            Andy S – “Maybe Forrest gave us some hint here by saying that solving clue #4 will bring searcher within about 200 feet to TC.”
            *** *** *** ***

            Here’s another quote with a different takeaway:

            “There have been a few people within five hundred feet; I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.” ff

            Julius Brighton report from 20 May ’15, right around 6:20 iirc.



        • TT,
          I am curious about your post regarding “a reference point IMO, it could be a co ordinate that sits many miles away” . I have found a coordinate reference to HoB, but it is not on the other side of the world but instead within driving distance of a believable hiding spot. If you want to continue this dialogue for yourself or for the benefit of all Followers of this site then I hope to hear your reply.


          • McK, sorry I did not get back sooner, today is golf day for me, I was out playin in Albuquerque, I live just South of Santa Fe in Tijeras, NM.

            If you follow the backward bike analogy, like 66,000 links north of Santa Fe, which is at exactly 8.25 miles and also Hwy 285 use the numbers with some imagination, which is the biggest hint/clue that ff has dropped IMO, this leads me to believe that since I have navigated all over this planet there must be important numbers in the poem, otherwise how else can one find a small area exactly.

            If Earhart and navigator Fred Noonan disappeared over the central Pacific Ocean near Howland Island had known there exact co ordinates they would have survived to complete the around the world or the circumnavigation.

            For much of his life Forrest Fenn was an extraordinary pilot, he found targets in dense jungle with pinpoint accuracy, much of it with analog technology he know what I knows, all these geographic metaphorical places have an exact co ordinate, down to at least the 4th digit, the reason his old home address of 1413 North Main is perhaps the exact spot is simple, it was home and is his resting place for his bones, are these backward? Are they after a MAIN LONGITUDE co ordinate? Time will tell but this is how the HOB and WWWH and the Blaze will shake out in the end. Take it to the bank…


        • Thanks, JAK. So, we have very strange contradiction here: by solving first 2 clues (I guess they are WWWH and “And take it in the canyon down” or if WWWH is first one and second is ATIITCD+NFBTFTW) you already can be within 200-500 feet to TC. In this case the solving of clues #3 (PIBTHO) and #4 (FTINPFTM) will not bring you closer to the blaze and TC.
          I’m not sure now that NFBTFTW part is recommendation for driving distance – in this case some parking lot should be within 500 feet from blaze and TC i.e. it’s too close.

          • Hey-O Andy S –

            Not far on a golf course or a football field.

            On a major league baseball field, 3rd base is only 90 feet from the batter, but the batter has to go 270 feet to get there.

            In the Rocky Mountains, 200-500 feet on the other side of a ridge, ravine, river, or lake could easily require a mile or two round trip hike to get to.

            Being on the top or bottom of a 200-foot dropoff (with the chest at the bottom or top) is another popular interpretation.


      • JDA
        I have been searching same area since 2012 and I know it is the right spot , I could give tours! I know every rock and almost every tree ,seems like home now .Dont give up on your thoughts and your spot it could be the one .I have got wwwh and hob and npftm I have found the gypsies and the lumberjack looking up at the crescent moon with the dove ,and also the blaze waiting on the right time to collect . But if not you may be on the right track I would say “the race is on “but I have aged a lot since I began and I’ll just slowly walk to it gather it up and walk away.Good Luck to all searchers of chest .

        • Hi Tonto;

          Well, I guess that it will be the race of the tortoises – I am in a hurry, but my body views things a bit differently 🙁 JDA

    • Saun… thanks for repeating an old idea. It keeps it fresh. I think any searcher willing to put in the time could spend a solid week watching and reading search stories. Not all actually disclose a specific place… but certainly many do and the ones that don’t can be figured out to at least a general area.
      Even if any story actually had a [correct] wwh and second clue combination I seriously doubt it would give up anything… repeat… anything beyond that. The only scenario where that may happen is if another searcher had the same first clues… which we now know is quite possible, and that searcher saw a word or place that clicked open the right thought at the right moment. I don’t believe that is likely… but who really knows?

  33. Does anyone happen to remember the scrapbook where Forrest shows three fishing lures and a wooden one off to the side? I checked tarry scant and no results found. Thank you for your help.

    • Tim-
      If you go to the “Forrest’s Scrapbooks” section you will find, right on the top of the index, a link to a PDF guide to the scrapbooks that was put together by Blex with just your kind of question in mind…
      Open up that .PDF document and find a short description for each scrapbook…very handy!!
      I’ll bet you will find exactly what you’re looking for in that document…
      I suspect you are looking for scrapbook 113…

  34. Bowmarc,
    What information do you have for the needed calculation?

    If an object on the ground is of certain shape… Where do those numbers come from?

    If we are to think of everything… I would think all that information would be in the poem… If not, botg is needed…right?

  35. Has anyone tried looking at any of the poem in a backward way. Could that be what the reverse steering bicycle was about?

    • I have lol. I wrote somewhere a while back that I was really upset when he posted SB62 because so much of my solve involved head pressures, lots of head pressures, also icons, fonts, charts, graphs, curved lines, magnets, riddles, reincarnation, numerology, the alignment of the planets (including Pluto), playing the poem backwards at different speeds, folding the poem and pics in the books like the back page of a Mad magazine, a big ball of silly string, a UV flashlight, matches, a bottle cap, my thumb, a rabbit hole depth meter, bug repellent, and a few other things that I can’t disclose yet…

      • Mark…have you noticed that the paper in the book[TTOTC] tends to fall apart after being creased or folded too many times? My poem page is a wreck…

    • Hi Meadowlark,
      I don’t think the reverse steering bicycle has anything to do with the chase, IMO. That’s just another story. If I were you I’d like to concentrate my effort to the forward steering bicycle and the 9 consecutive clues to find the chest.
      — MK

      • MajinKing, do you remember this ATF from Forrest, its @13 here at HOD https://dalneitzel.com/2013/03/01/tips-from-forrest/

        Converted in a backward bike analogy we go from 66,000 links to 8.25 miles and what is the name of the most northerly route out of Sana Fe into the teeth of the Rockies? Hwy 285…just imagine how many people did not get that one…yet and you begin to realize that if the poem and book are working in synchronicity, say a few hints that illuminate the clues in the same way, you could shed some mathematical light on say his old home address which is 1413 North Main St in Temple, TX waht so use som imajinition and waht if tis a co ord..my friend man ji kin…

        The trick is to catch the rigth ones up ni ur majins/\ ques clued in ?


        • Tom Terrific – The number 1413 reduces to 9 in Numerology, effectively making that a ‘ground zero’ number. To ‘home’ in on?

          Or, could Forrest mean?:

          ‘One Four One Three’

          As to a ‘3’ and a ‘4’ being in the coordinates? Is a ‘111’ longitude equal to a ‘3’? I have two fours in my latitude.

        • Hi TT,
          I think your highway 285 is one way of interpreting Fenn’s hint of 8.25 miles from Santa Fe. But my interpretation is different and I kept the 8, 2, and 5 in the same order.
          — MK

          • Problem with 825 is it is too easy to convert and to see, do this exercise to understand the backward bike analogy, that is read the scrapbook 106 very carefully, why 106 well if it were the longitude coordinate or a North Main (Street) it will dissect Leadville, Co, home to Browns canyon, Molly Brown and it is the exact longitude in Laos where ff spent the night in fear of his last hours on earth, Pathet Lao did not take prisoners, especially US pilots in SE Asia. Look at the co ordinate 106, in the scrapbook 106 and page 106 in Too Far book Jungle Wisdom chap 22, everyone needs numbers, even those who read blogs and dream about finding Indulgence, who was “E” who plods a holy field? SHe is much like HAL in 2001 a Space Oddyssey AKA IBM. Questions?

            I feel Forrest has been to the movies a few times and surely read comic books…funny how the backward bike is so hard for old people to learn. Learn we must. Recognize we will, Spielberg I think hid his treasure of the holy grail in the Canyon of the Crescent Moon, perhaps that is the canyon down, since we can ride the same train in.


  36. If you want to find the treasure chest I’m afraid that you’ll have to do the math. If math isn’t your thing use a calculator. IMHO.

    • I don’t think any math (or even numbers) is required for a good solve. But
      thinking like a teenager may help. All IMO.

  37. Anywhere you start is a “beginning” – so you could “start” at the end, in the middle, or anywhere along the way. Just a thought……

    • Nope.
      AFT’s are helpful here, americana.
      Fenn has said you can’t start by look for later clues, you must start at the first clue, you can’t start in the middle of the poem… such as looking for the blaze. etc. etc.
      Your idea / philosophy is not factual…

      • Well what you say tis probably true Seeker. I was just thumbing thru some possibilites. I guess moving foreward means at the VERY beginning if what you say is true. Looking at the pictures and forgetting to read the words LOL.

        • Just to be nit-pickiy… I didn’t say them, fenn did.

          We also have fenn’s comment;
          Need to know where to start
          Need to start at the beginning.

          LOL “VERY” has a new meaning if we look at those comment as separate place and /or ideas. I mean, we are to we have to “learn” WWsH.. right?
          The learning part can be the VERY beginning of the poem, the starting part can be stanza 2.

  38. I think that no place for the meek- has something to do with the treasure chest not being there- at hob . the end is ever drawing nigh , tells me that , the treasure chest is farther away and is not there its no place for the meek.

  39. if meek is not a direction , an elevation , and there is no place , imo there is no real meek , to help you find the tc , I think he put it there for a very important clue to go with no paddle up your creek-imo

    • well im not going to talk to my self – so you all have fun , hope you find it , im out of here

      • Frank don’t leave. Here my opinion. Just saying

        No place for the meek to me means or is saying that this stretch is not going to be fun, easy, could be a bit scary but the end is drawing nigh. I believe that this part of the poem is the hardest to traverse.

        • Travis – then maybe traverse it only on a map. It might be the Emigrant Trail from Guernsey WY to Rock Creek Hollow.

          • E. C. Waters – I agree. I follow Forrest’s water route (because the meek will inherit the Earth), along the ‘no place for the meek’ section of the Madison River, only on my topo map. We drove from my WWWH to do the wiSe part; but we could have walked or rode a bike down the Boundary Trail, instead. We made the right choice, since the ‘water high’ created a marsh, where the Boundary Trail meets my S-mile at Baker’S Hole Campground. And we nabbed campsite #60, right near my ‘miss ford’ spot.

        • Hey Travis thanks for talking to me . its ok to think the way you believe what meek means , but im looking at it this way , if there is no place for the meek , there is just no place , so there is no place for the meek other then to make no paddle work in the poem, every where you go has got to be a little scary so I don’t think you need meek to know that but that’s ok . its just my opinion . I just don’t like that word – it has nothing for me – but thanks Travis for taking time to comment – again its just an opinion—–frank

          • FRANK , I am sort of on your thoughts , NO PLACE FOR THE MEEK is not an actual place [ so to speak ] it is a physical action that we must do before we can move on . after that you are close to the end [ THE END IS EVER DRAWING NIGH ] now , the phrase Your up a creek without a paddle means being in a difficult situation with no simple solution , so when we get there it will be a simple situation with no difficult solution [ THERE`LL BE NO PADDLE UP YOUR CREEK ] JUST heavy loads and water high. IMO

          • JPE- what physical action do you have to do when there is no place for the meek , would think nothing sense no place for meek is not there.i think that theres no paddle up your creek , to me it means that’s as far ,that you go in one direction , when the creek ends , cause from there you have to turn and go to heavy loads and waters high- (I think heavy loads is a high way ) then the blaze and in the wood – thanks for your comment -JPE

  40. imo ,I think stanza 2 is being read wrong.
    f. said read poem slow line by line.
    dont mess with my poem.
    stanza 2 reads imo like this.

    Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down comma not far comma but too far to walk period

    these 3 sentence belong to each other, he ended it with a period.
    thats telling me the canyon down is too far to walk from wwwh and not hob..
    but you all can read the poem however you want.
    again Imo

  41. What is all this meek talk, it’s not meek, not nutin meek about it, it is a scary place, but the good news is we probably do not need to go “in” there, because poem gives us a way out, it says “From there” “it” is no place for the meek, well that word, funny word, it’s would sound a lot better if he, ff would have used “from there, it is not a place for the meek”. Truly think for what reason does ff not want us to mess with the POEM? What did he say originally the words “Take the chest but leave my bones in peace” He said he got well and ruined that expression, so what does it mean really? Denotation is in it.

    What’s it to you? Some here say it’s the journey, some, like me, think an entirely different thought, “it is” does not make nearly as good a contraction for splanin “from there”, so let’s (let us) do what? Mess a little with the poem…heaven forbade: What have we changed here? DIRECTION of movement, calculation of thought/place, is that it…perhaps it is WISE to not go there, where we were headed down, from, beyond, below the home of Brown? The end is ever drawing nigh so we avoid NPFTM and we near, or go left to the right location, do you feel it is a geographical, or metaphorical location in some concept dreamed up in a vision of our imagination?

    I really think it is both, because the way ff uses it’s, it is after all a riddle, a puzzle and the deeper we get into semantics, the more we might find denominational semantics, there are # ‘s there incorporated into the poem and IMO there is not another way on this planet to pin point a 12’X12’ square in one of earths largest mountain ranges.

    That is why Home of Brown is difficult to find, it is such a reference, a place that is different, like a city different, which is what Santa Fe, is also known as, it has unique numbers and famous Browns, perhaps it exists only in our imagination once we know, NPFTM. If WWWH is a place and a metaphorical idea too why not the same for HOB and the Blaze as well? The solution is having all these 3 nailed in real geographical co ordinates. and the corresponding correct metaphorical description.

    I have Imagined these three places and ideas many times and each new revelation I find here at Home of Dal confirms to me a theory, call me or it lost in the “Wood River” idea, but this to me it is a boundary in my limited imagination. Right I could be, or wrong but I have not found Indulgence yet, either…nor has anyone else?


  42. I’ll just say it again. Guernsey.

    – Bessie, page 31.
    – William Boyd, the actor who played Hopalong Cassidy, page 40, was from Guernsey County, OH.
    – Poweshiek County, containing Guernsey, IA, was named after a chief of the Fox (page 9) tribe.
    – Sleipnir (“slippy”, or “the slipper”, SB130) was Odin’s 8-legged horse, birthed by Loki somehow. The number of legs are said to symbolize the eight “principal” winds on an 8-point compass rose, a bit like a weather vane (“rooster” symbol). And I read one claim it also represents the 9 phases of the moon where the missing ninth leg is darkness. Sleipnir fathered a descendant named Grani, after which Guernsey is said to be named. Not Granny, like Grandma who made great apple and cherry pies on pages 50 and 51. But Grani (or Grane, a bit like “grain”, or in the wood and cacher in the rye). Page 26 of TTOTC mentions Thor and then follows up with the lessons learned from the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda (Norse instruction manuals). Guernsey appears to be at least one Norse connection.
    – SB179’s first word is “Heck”. Google those guys with cows, the Heck Brothers I mean, and something I did “not see” coming.

  43. I’ve been thinking about it taking two trips in one afternoon. Why didn’t he take a full day? What was he doing in the morning?

    I think he had his fishing gear with him as a cover story and while he was out there he couldn’t resist annoying the local trout with some pesky flies. Maybe the poem takes you from his special fishing spot (possibly “My secret fishing hole”, p124 TTOTC?) to another place that’s special to him for a different reason.

    Now if I can just figure out what sort of special place the end of the poem might be describing…

    This idea does raise the question of whether he would leave the treasure in the car while he went fishing. But I can think of a few ways to make it relatively safe.

  44. and it was done in (1 after 12:00) 5 minutes.
    I hope fully that time Will tell…

    • You’re getting close. There are 30 degrees between the positions of 12 noon and 1:00 pm. I think Forrest may have hidden the TC in an area of one (1 hour) after (12:00) noon. Look for an image of a clock hand when it points to the area between 12:00 noon and 1:00 pm. Is there a pie or pi to be seen in this area?

      This is also where he made two “trips.” Remember when he said he “tripped” over a headstone and came face to face with an aluminum grave marker in “My War For Me”? What can a “trip” really mean? Maybe something like a tripwire?

      • Hi Land,

        Hot diggity! Within the “12′” club would be fine with me(check local listings). But I’m probably SOL if degrees are required. I did gradU8 high school… although, my mind stays about thirteen. 🙂

        “Trips” are a daily routine for me. However, I was under the impression that f’s trip was a learning experience to help prevent us from “stumbling” on ours. Happy forth to all!

        • miafarmerfriend ~ ‘ I did gradU8 high school… although, my mind stays about thirteen. ‘

          I get what you’re saying…
          But here’s a thought. WhatIF we do need to learn certain things?
          I mean, IF this solves comes down to the idea of triangulating three point… and we don’t know how that is done, is it wrong to learn it?
          IF we don’t know the difference between a brown trout and a carp, do we learn it?

          We all have the same information, yet if we don’t know of something.. such as coordinates or degrees, or how to read DMS vs. DMM, do we just skip learning it.. should it be involved in a solution?
          fenn did say a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help… right? and we need to learn what / where WWsH .. right?

          Does studying up on geography [no matter what high or low anyone’s education might be] Unfair to those with less official paper degrees / education?

          Before the invention of the clock / time piece, a simple method of telling time throughout the day was by means of a sundial and for hundreds of years. But I’d bet many never used one in this day and age.

          LOL, does it help to know / learn the different meanings / usages of ‘degrees’ [ for example ] in my comment…
          I really don’t think education on a higher academic scale is needed. But more to the idea of common sense to learn something that might be needed in the correct solve.

          One idea is; Tarry Scant, for a clue, in a poetic form, to be deciphered, difficult but not impossible… to be “Tarry Point”? which bring me full circle to – WhatIF triangulation could be involved with deciphered clue points.

          • how does one decipher ‘tarry point’ from tarry scant? I’m sure you mentioned your theory a time or two…but I forget. And how does that equate to the probability of someone figuring that out who is not edumacated in the workins of a tarry point ?

          • Ken ~ ‘And how does that equate to the probability of someone figuring that out who is not edumacated in the workins of a tarry point ?’

            Thank you for even thinking of that question… *that’s the point.*
            In solving this; our we being told or suggested, there are things we should learn about… not unlike being “told” we need to learn about WWsH or geography might help [ATFs], or even, don’t bother with other types of thinking… Latin or any other lingo, idea for example.. because we are “told” the poem is in Plain English. But then again, that is obvious of the language used.

            A quick summery of Tarry Point.
            The use of “but” implies something else is needed.
            IF a searcher thinks points of interest [Land Features] could be points for a type of transnational for a solve [ and many have considered just that, so it’s not a far fetch idea ]…

            Tarry Point [ ‘point’ related to scant as small- a hint- if you will ] and Tarry being the equation to use… relates to Tarry Point. [ this ideas only works IF the searcher is correctly thinking the right type of thoughts or correctly thinking how the poem unfolds…]

            Is that something we would need to learn-?- to figure out how the clues work, in order and contiguously? [joining].
            Fenn did say this was difficult, but not impossible, said, he made it harder [from the original drafts] and with the thought of 900 years involved. Tells us, the movement of the RM’s will have an impact on the poem in 3009 [ a 1000 years down the road ]
            And from the get go says; “follow the clues precisely” [exactly].

            Would movement of points over a long period of time change the triangulation theory?
            Sure it would… especially if it could be ‘very precise’ to lead to a 10″ sq spot. {a scant point.. lol.. see what I did there}

            If it was easy anyone could do it.

            Here’s an age old question I like to bring up everu once upon a while… How does 100, 1000, even 10,000 years work in your [everyone’s] thought process of solving the poem?

          • Thanks for the explanation…but I still can’t get past the idea of someone not familiar with more advanced Geometry figuring out that’s what they need to learn about.
            I happen to know about the Tarry Point because I was real good at Biology…just kidding.
            The Tarry point lies on the circumcircle opposite the Steiner point… or… the Tarry point is the point in which the lines through the vertices of a triangle perpendicular to the corresponding sides of the First Brocade…. or … which one is about a polygon and which is about a triangle? I think perhaps that part of the poem may be about something different than a Tarry point…
            If we take all of the extra comments/interviews etc. off the table…even Fenn’s website… only TTOTC book is left. It contains the poem and some stories. Solve it…

          • Tarry Point is also a more elaborate equation of the ‘Nine point circle’ but the same type of outcome.
            I mean, how many people knew about chain length in surveying.. Ha! now most are experts. How many could calculate an acreage, just by using placements of poles etc. Now, many do… kinda.

            The idea is only an example of WhatIf there’s a triangulation involved, line of thinking. The concept is not hard…
            The question is; can the poem be relaying how things unfold and do we need to learn something if we don’t know it.
            It could be about fish… of the glacial period… But he seemed to want whatever is to be done as hard[er], than it was originally.

            So where back to, how hard is the thinking and analyzing to come up with the right thoughts-?- that we need to plan for, and observe.
            Observe does having a meaning of; perform or take part in. [ regardless of how some dictionary use examples ] It means “take part in.”
            LOL even the word “take” has a different meaning then ‘normally’ thought of. But it’s still “Plain English’

            I personally think observe falls more in line with; *to regard with attention, especially so as to “see” or “learn” something.*
            So what is it we may learn along the way? [ in this case, on site ]
            However, shouldn’t we have some idea of what we may need to observe beforehand.

            Multiple meanings / usages of words can change a thought from one extreme to another… when involving 166 words. [or 83 words if we only count what we hope represents clues].

            LOL, fenn looked up words ad changed many times. There had to be a significant reason for working that hard, felt like an architect, over a long period of time [15years], thinking down the road [millenniums]… to get it just the way he wanted.

          • Fenn did write in his TTOTC book … “nothing is too small to know, so one should not let knowing a little bit be a substitute for learning more.” With this in mind it is obvious that a searcher needs to *learn* something or there will be no end to the search for his treasure. Without any of his comments or other ATF… zip zero zilch nada… a theoretical solve needs to pass the muster of reading his poem from the TTOTC book and [honestly] jive with the information contained there…. end of story.

          • Seeker reminded: “I mean, how many people knew about chain length in surveying.. Ha! now most are experts.”

            Indeed! Who knew that Alexander Graham Bell’s and Samuel Morse’s inventions are actually much older than we thought? Or alternatively, those prescient Colonists in 1620 took a page from Nostradamus and started putting in utility poles at regular intervals in anticipation of Morse’s and Bell’s inventions. 😉

          • Seeker…here’s a preliminary list of Marvel comic characters that are Professors
            Lee Wing…Asian Studies
            Marina Caches[uh oh !]… Spider-Man
            Horatio Piper[ another uh oh]
            Professor Howard
            Blue Diamond…Anthropology
            Alexa Skarab… Archaeology
            John Roberts…. Geology
            Mr. Liberty… American History
            This is just a starter kit to help *with marvel gaze*. Or not…

          • Ken: you forgot the best match to Marvel Gaze: Scott Summer (Cyclops). 🙂

          • Zap… I didn’t put that in the list because I was thinking the [Summer] part might confuse the issue….

          • That’s for sure, given that Forrest hid the chest in “Summer” LOL.

            Don’t know what Richard’s status is — his blog entries abruptly stopped years ago. Maybe he’s back in Central or South America.

          • Jake… I absolutely never entertained the thought for even a split second. I have been entertained by reading it here over the years. My point was that there is more to the equation in that line of the poem than just tarry scant…and Seeker has failed to tie that to the Tarry point in the course of talking about it over the years. Maybe he did and I missed it?

          • Oh Jake… I also found it mildly entertaining that Forrest has included stories about certain comic Characters in his writings… along with his penchant for adding comic-like doodles here and there. Is there a bit of irony in that ?

          • I haven’t been around here that long and see it pop up now and then. I haven’t given the Marvel Comic theory much cred and stayed out of those conversations. Glad you just stayed on the sidelines just to watch the game play out.

            I go to games now and then although I’m not a fan of either team or player but it’s entertainment anyway.
            I liked Marvin Gaye as the clue.
            Just kidding!

  45. Seeker, just a little clarification of this comment you made earlier this am above to:


    But what of the other ATFs?

    Sure, IF all we had was this ATF to work with, we could bend it a bit to make it work for a driving involved solution.
    Yet, we have; [in part]
    He followed the clues when he hid the chest.
    Made two trips from his car.
    Walked less than a mile.
    Took the same route; car and hide.
    Tells us we should be able to walk several hour to our solves.”
    So the comment you posted here about “Walked less than a mile” is not exactly correct, the clarification to illuminate this ATF has not been laid out by ff or anyone exactly, it is fuzzy because we do not know if he meant the whole trip one way or IMHO what is the Whole truth as in Jump start the learnin curve.

    Mysterious Writings; On October 13, 2014 this came out,

    Hi Forrest,
    You once said you walked the 92 miles from West Yellowstone to Bozeman to just experience it. Obviously you were much younger than you were when you hid the treasure. Too far to walk means different things at different ages so I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car: was it >10miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile? ~Thanks, Ron

    Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f
    excessively frugal
    b : not prodigal : CHARY
    2a : barely or scarcely sufficient
    especially : not quite coming up to a stated measure.


    • March 2, 2015 Mysterious Writings, Jenny Kyle,

      Forrest, You said you made two trips from your car to hide the treasure. Besides walking, did you use any other methods of transportation to get back and forth between the car and the hide? Thanks, Edgar

      “Edgar, your wording of the question prompts me to pause and wonder if I can answer it candidly, yet correctly. Were all the evidence truly known, and I answered in the positive, you might say I was prevaricating, by some definitions of the word. And if I answered in the negative, you may claim that I was quibbling. So I will stay quiet on that subject. Thanks for the question anyway. f”

      I believe this answer says a lot more than “less than a few miles” quip, if the Treasure chest is located and retrieved where TT thinks it is this will be Forrest clause of plausibility deniability.


  46. there be no paddle up your creek means to me is STOP, don’t go any farther then where the creek ends, stay on the highway going north to waters high imo – heavy loads to me means highway—-

    • Frank, how does Highway take in the idea of Water High? Are there trucks that carry these heavy loads?


    • Another alternative is if paddle means spade, to fit the opening gambling theme. If up Rock Creek is Atlantic City, but the wrong Atlantic City for gambling, there won’t be any spades there. Then “just heavy loads and water high” would reasonably mean “Atlas” since this word is the etymon for “Atlantic”, and is also a good map.

      • EC ~ ‘Another alternative is if paddle means spade, to fit the opening gambling theme.’

        It might be IF there was some kinda information that leads / confirms the idea of paddle means spade.
        Just for fun I try looking up this idea… trying many different wording and phrasing to locate anything. But my search efforts came up blank. Do you have something that i can see/read that might relates to ‘paddle means spade’?

        And I get that you said *IF* paddle means spade… but don’t we need to check, that is actually does-?-before we get into Atlantic City, or “Atlas” or etymon for “Atlantic”…………

        • Seeker – for the most part, I use Google to find a word and its definition, for example “paddle definition” is the string that I will google. This also gives me synonyms and sometimes the word’s etymology. I also use wiktionary.com and etymonline.com for the same reasons because sometimes google’s content is incomplete.

          Googling “paddle definition”, I see that “spade” is readily a synonym.

          • E.C. Waters – After doing the ‘brave and in the wood’ canoe thing, to cross the Madison River to my hide-y spot, one of the ‘paddleS’ would make a great covert ‘spade’. Thank you! And thank you to the Starnosed moles for rototilling the earth to make it so soft.

          • So I’m convinced there is no entering or crossing of water in a canoe, a boat, or waders. And with apologies to all for my opinions, I don’t believe the Madison is involved.

          • E.C. Waters – I appreciate your opinion. But read TT’s post with the quote if Forrest’s Q/A with Edgar above. My BITW crossing of the Madison River was ‘walking’ with wading boots. Paddling a canoe, or having a trailing dingy, would be much easier. “IT” just makes Sense, IMO.

            I See a ‘shovel’ and some Medieval weaponry:


            Just calling a Spade a Spade.

          • E.C. Waters – A Medieval weapon in that Wiki link has a ‘broad blade’, which I saw in a definition for ‘paddle’. And I also love Merriam-Webster’s Etymology definitions:

            History and Etymology for paddle
            Verb (1)

            origin unknown


            Middle English padell spade-shaped tool for cleaning a plow.

          • Lisa – Forrest’s response to Edgar could be interpreted that he didn’t want to answer the question.

            Edgar did not ask him about the mixed modes of locomotion to his “hiding spot”. He asked about “the hide”, where he (presumably) used an anthimeria like folks here use “solve”. I interpret Forrest’s response to point at this instead of how we would typically interpret it. “Hide” is also a unit of measure for a pretty sizable number of acres owned by a family, enough to support them. A synonym for “prevaricate” is “fence”. “Quibble” also has “hedge”. So it might be that he is saying he also had to get over a fence somehow to get where he was going on private land.

            As an aside, your response count is that of a bot with effect of a botfly. 😉

  47. TT the highway is what carries the heavy loads – cars trucks what ever – so your next clue would be waters high- from no paddle you go to waters high

  48. Interesting problem Seeker somewhere up-thread …….Consider the planning needed to “take it with him” before and after that sharp turn of WHEN:

    * Death was imminent. Thoughts would be: family, philosophy, personal legacy.
    * Death not imminent. A new adventure, a game, a challenge… life again.

    In A…. He might leave his car at a public place and take public transportation to the START WALKING place. There are other ways as well, but this is the easiest explanation for the moment.

    He would leave a poem to inform & ease Peggy. She would understand it and comply with his wishes. (She always did.) Finding the car or place was not important.

    The contents of the TC would be different then. More personal value, less commercial value. But definitely, it would have the autobiography for any future accidental finder. Writing an autobiography was consumingly important after the death prognosis.

    In B…. Life again…a whole different ball game. A new adventure, a game of art and wit. Acquire a symbolically meaningfully box, select durable items of commercial value. Pre-hide it, leaving no trace. Leave a poem of clues for SEARCHERs ….. game on.

    All IMO of course.

  49. Ken,

    I’m bringing our last conversion here… the ladder is too long to climb.

    Considering the WhatIF… The forward mentions the idea of the parking lot at the Denver museum as a clue. Taking in the time span of things, fenn said he thought the chest could be found in a week, so he made it harder… removing things he thought would rot away over time, the IOU for example. Said he found a better way to know, and the chest may not be found or 900 years… which was stated many years later [ in the forward ]. And after many drafts the poem we have been told.

    This alone gives the impression… the first few or even many drafts, could have been completely different. Example; the first draft idea could have sent folks to 9 different museums… we just don’t know. It’s obvious fenn changed the poem, not only to be more difficult, but with the idea of “down the road”… 100 years, “900”, 1000, even 10,000 years down { ATF’s stated over the 9 years}

    If the Denver comment was a “clue” -or- how it could have played out in an earlier draft, is not longer an option. That would be kinda crazy, to blatantly give an answer of a clue if it was still remotely usable.
    The idea is how the poem was changed to be harder with hundreds of years added on to the difficulty of it. { which has been a repeated question of mine… {how does “down the road” play into a solve?} Do we really think the museum would be around in 900 – 1000 years? even if there is ‘a’ museum in Denver… there’s a could chance it would move to a larger location for 900 years of additions to it.

    I personally don’t think the early drafts were the same process. Fenn was thinking about the cancer possibly coming back in the early 1990’s…. then as time past he changes to poem, and I would say completely different, than some of those 1990’s versions. “Indecision is the key to flexibility”

    We should be asking ourselves how our solves would play out in a 100 – 1000 years plus. The only thing we have been told [ to date ] is the movement of the RM’s will have an impact on the clues. We have been told the chest is not associated with a structure, [ logically ] I would think, for a “harder” “difficult but not impossible” “thinking down the road” thousand of type solve wouldn’t have an structure for any clue. The obvious reasoning; the clues ARE directly associated with the chest… it is why the clues were created. { I’d be very curious if fenn could have made that statement in all the ‘draft’ prior to the last one. }

    The point: fenn [ in the forward ] admits the first ideas of the clues would be simpler … then changes made, to make the poem much harder. IMO.. *this is the message being relayed in the forward, imo*…
    Not unlike the many ATFs stated over the 9 years.
    The first drafted poems were probably completely different [even different clue references] than the final piece we have from the book. {refer to halo’s Q&A} about the number of clues.. stayed about the same count… not the clues themselves.}

    Nothing in that forward says the clues were basically the same… in fact… it’s implies they were changed [as we have been told many time]. Maybe even a completely different method was created [ over a two decade time period ] than the earlier versions.

    LOL this is probably not, the WhatIF conversation you wanting… but your question should raise a thought process of how things could have been different and changed drastically; from the idea of a week solve time span [fenn felt]..to..a 900 year solve to make it much harder.
    Especially, with the idea of “follow precisely” and the ‘movements’ of the RM’s seems to be our major enemy.

    End of commentary…

    • It’s all good… I don’t ever expect anyone to see things the way I do…and that is a good thing. Doug does say quite clearly that Fenn had *already written* the poem and that the final draft to the poem was similar but not exactly the same as what he had seen originally because Fenn had tweaked it over the years.
      I also discounted the Denver clue because that is not plausible that he would have told him the actual place where he would park.
      Your lengthy comment only emphasizes my original premise in that the place where his car would be found is absolutely viable as something to ponder. If his special place never changed…how could he pull that off and not expect folks to be drawn to a definite area within the massive search zone?
      I’m not basing anything in my proposed solution to this…however…. I think the area has to pass that test.

      • Also…[Fenn] did not say HE thought the treasure would be found in a week. That was Doug’s comment after Fenn read it to him and told him the Denver museum. Fenn assured Doug even then that the poem was [ absolutely reliable] if followed [IN ORDER] but was extremely difficult to interpret[900 years].

        • ken, the point that it would be ‘the last clue’ came from ff or from Doug? I wondered about that cause in ones mind that sounds like a first clue, unless the poem told otherwise.

          • “The final clue, he said, would be where they found his car: in the parking lot of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.” That is written by Doug.
            I only assume that means that we already have the clues in the poem and then where he parked his car. Disclaimer; The Denver aspect I believe is generic… why would he give the actual park place? Or… maybe he[Fenn] tweaked that as well… over the years. Also…I do not believe this info helps with figuring out wwwh.

      • Seeker, Ken

        I just want to stick my 5 cents in this talk on the Denver Museum “a so called clue.”

        What if your not looking at the big picture here, then just maybe the “word that is key” will help with understanding why this place could be Forrest final clue.
        This clue comment in Doug’s statement, that Forrest does not seem to dispute, can help with one poem clue solve and it also gives a big hint to another. Not sure what everyone’s focus is on here, but surely it not on how this clue “relates” to Forrest “special place” that his poem takes you to.

        There are two other searchers that understand this Denver Museum clue here at hoD, that I know of, because of comments made by them, but they are not second guessing there original solves. If they see my post I just want to say expand your thoughts, you are on the trail, just move to the better trail.

        As far as this final clue fitting like a line in the poem, nada, this is not a clue solve that fits the poems trail.

        This final clue only helps if either 1) you have most of the clues solves and then the answers are obvious, or 2) if you are on a certian guideline trail but need to take it to another place.

        You cannot just try to understand this clue and hope it leads you to indulgence.

        Of course all I say is just food for thought.

        Good luck guys,

        • Bur – A nickel for your thoughts. Still want to go to the McCracken Research Library in Cody to see if I can find a way to get past the until 2025 block on that Oral History recorded by Forrest there. In Box 9, Folder 125. So interesting that people put nickels on Buffalo Bill’s grave in Colorado. I think he should have been buried in Cody. He certainly has been memorialized well there. And so kewl that Iron Tail was one of the models for that Indian Head or Buffalo nickel, since he was in Buffalo Bill’s Wild West show. I read a great historical fiction book about how Iron Tail got lost in Europe at one of those shows and missed the boat with the return of the Wild West entourage.

          We are inspired to learn so much, here on The Chase, are we not?

          Thank you, Forrest.

          • Lisa, Also interesting is the nicke’sl history… designed by Frasier. Lots of Frasier mts & rivers around. One outside of Denver where Ike used to fly-fish. Nice statue of Ike there in some park or golf course. Frasier’s father (a civil engineer I think) was on the clean-up crew after the Custar battle (body & equipment removal, data & records notation, etc.)

      • Ken,
        when I first time read this “last clue” about Denver museum parking lot my first idea was to start search in Colorado. But then I start think about how Forrest plan to hide his last trace i.e. his car. After his disappearance police will definitely do some investigation and will found his car. Forrest knew that car can lead to some definite area. IMO but he can use very simple trick here – use his car for TC transportation and hiding in Rockies, then return his car in some point that far away from hiding location. After he parked his car he can use some public transportation to travel back to already hidden TC. He could use trains, buses, taxi or even buy bike to reach final parking lot. What final clue we will have after his disappearance? His car parked in the parking lot of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science? Or near Northern Arizona University?
        In 2012, it was written by a news reporter (Tony Doukopil) that Forrest Fenn said: “So when Forrest puts his body next to the treasure and dies he’s afraid that people will find his car and the location of the car would be Northern Arizona University. So there could be some significance to Northern Arizona University.”
        So, since Forrest plan for “self-sepulchering” was abandoned by Forrest we will never know where he was planned to park his car. Moreover, the location of parking was planned to mislead searchers.

        • It is about the same distance to both of those places from Santa Fe, about 390 miles by car. From the Denver Museum to NAU there are 484 linear miles forming a triangle with SF being the other corner. Middle point between those two is 242 miles. That number means anything to anyone???

        • Andy…you brought my premise full circle. I have not been pitching anything as concrete/solid in any way. If the comments are just filler… great. Conversely… regardless of an opinion what they mean, they are still a tool to plug your solve into to see how either scenario could have worked and make sense.

          • Ken,
            Although I’m sure just about every searcher who read the forward thought about it. I’m personally not surprised fenn may have not reacted to it in any manner.

            Fenn himself was to give “clues” on the today show, later to call them useless clues. Basically, imo, nothing that helps directly to lead anyone closer [unless one believes an elimination factor gets one closer].

            Point: ; lol.. fenn calls almost everything a clue, rather than narrowing anything to be a certain clue vs. a certain hint.
            I still think that earlier poems or versions of the last poem, could be a completely different process., in comparison.. to how the last poem unfolds. Now, if Douglas Preston could recite the earlier poem… Ha! that would be most helpful.

            But lets say, some other transportation [from Anywhere USA] was used to get back to the location… I would think it would be done without a “paper” trail [rentals, and such] or being Identified by [lets say] a taxi driver, bus driver ideas… I mean, eventually the chase challenge would be as it is today… right? known nation, and even world wide.

            How would you travel-?-at age 80? From Anywhere USA.
            ~There’s a word that is key involved in my thought.

  50. Seeker, lets say some one in the classified ads or Craigs list wants to sell a cheap car or truck and has a title, lets say Denver, CO, and you present him cash money for the car, but you give him a bogus name, he does not get your photo and nothing elese matters, he is cashed out.

    Now you, I mean Forrest drives it out and un loads his bicycle near the WWWH….presto he rides off into the sunset, and since or unless there is a real paper trail or some candid camera where you met the guy selling on Craigslist he is non the wiser or suspicious, Forrest could wear a beard or mustache, change his look act like and speak like a foreigner by faking an accent.

    I worked for a very large Insurance Company in the USA for 42 years, I knew of frauds where brothers imitated each other and faked death so someone could claim insurance money, this is not rocket science, it is a simple impersonation, yes it is a crime and can be detected after the deed. But where is the body? Conveniently lost in a raging river, an ocean or eaten by wild animals, coyotes will eat humans, but they don’t like Chili, that is why we east so much here in NM..Please no ethnic “sombra” meant by my insinuation, since I am part native…


    Also for a fee you can buy a fake Colorado ID and Greyhound may not know either…

  51. I do not think the Denver Museum is one of the “What if’s” Forrest meant, but I do think that the what if’s could reveal an important hint or clue in the Big Picture, what if we framed in one state in wood, like a picture frame, you know that WY, CO, MT and NM are all pretty square and the real numbers or important numbers, because this will all IMHO come down to Numbers are 104.0000 Longitude, 116.0500 Longitude Northern Hemisphere, and 35.0750 Latitude, 49.0000 latitude Western Hemisphere, and since the release of the point where ff was rescued in the East is out, I suspect where WWWH and that coordinate, why, because like escaping and surviving cancer a plane crash and rescue is like surviving the Titanic catastrophic, twice. Now who survived the Titanic that was named Brown at 10,200 ft and the same exact longitude> Why would fenn choose there for a special place?

    The numbers say it is there, the metaphors concur now why have I not pinpointed it?

    • Maybe TT, that is what gets you to the 8th clue. Remember, the minimal amount of clues you need to solve is one, the last one. It would be just like f to have you put an “X” on a map, but still need to do something to finalize. Maybe the “key” is the answer to your 9th clue. Maybe the 9th clue is a distance from this “x” you’ve found. Whatever the case, and from what I’ve found, is that putting the “x” on a map doesn’t constitute the chest. Not yet, still a little more to figure out. Maybe look to something that includes “legend” of something. Beings how dividing that word: leg end, would be ‘foot”. Maybe that will yield a distance for you. Just throwing ideas out there…Maybe the legend of ff, at 80yrs old. Maybe 200’ comes into play, it’s all on you…

  52. Need some help from the Pro’s here I pretty’s sure one or more have this quote someplace.

    FF said along this line a Kid or a family fly fishing might be able to find it while looking for a new fishing hole. How was the Question asked or Completely Answered by FF. I know it has been said I just can’t find it, also was it the kid would only find the Blaze? Or the Chest?

    • There was never a statement like that by Fenn so you don’t have to worry about the answer that never was.
      You know it has been said?
      You don’t know.

      • There was a comment on the Reddit site it was said by u/steven2014 on
        July 14th 2017

        Here is the comment made by the poster:

        If your solve isn’t near fly fishing water or you don’t cross water, then you need to keep looking (my opinion)
        Forrest Fenn has referenced talking about a family fly fishing and finding it accidentally (looking for a new fishing hole). He usually has said that no one should accidentally stumble across it unless they are searching for the treasure, but this is the one exception he’s made. And it makes sense.

        Why? Because when you are out fly fishing there are certain times that you need to be on the other side of the river to cast your line in the correct position (you present your fly by casting upstream, and usually stand in the shallow area and cast into the deep area). As a fly fishing guide and avid fly fisherman in Yellowstone, Forrest Fenn would have spent many times crossing rivers and looking for new “fishing

        • No point starting at the first clue when you are so smart that you can go directly to the last one.

        • I don’t know Travis,
          I would not trust second hand info on what people post what Fenn said. I would only stick with what you hear him say or what he wrote and even some of the things he did say or wrote can be interpreted in many ways.

    • He pretty much said the opposite:
      “Nobody is going to happen on that treasure chest. You’re gonna have to figure out the clues in the poem and go to it.” (Moby Dickens video, Nov.2, 2013)

      “Nobody is going to accidentally stumble on that treasure chest. They’re going to have to figure out the clues and let the clues take them to that spot,f” http://abc13.com/news/millionaire-leaves-poetic-clues-for-treasure-hunters/685344/

      “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.” Forrest Fenn


  53. C & The Big Picture

    I did not see anything in Dal’s rules against a discussion about the particular topic I want to bring up, but none-the-less, my apologies beforehand if it seems insensitive to any readers. I am trying to be respectful about the topic I am bringing up, and hope that any and all responses to same are also done in a respectful manner.


    In the grand scheme of things, FF’s cancer is very much an integral part of TTOTC, and I wouldn’t argue against anyone who chose to say that it is THE reason above all others.

    With that said, does anybody else think that a part of FF’s comments about the big picture when talking about solving the poem is inclusive of his history with cancer?

    To me, FF is a practical man, and I don’t see him leaving the cancer aspect out of the poem itself despite such being told of in TTOTC.

    IMHO, stanza #5 is a subtle yet powerful message by FF about his cancer and TTOTC.

    It talks about him leaving is special spot (SWIITIMG).

    It talks about the aim & reward of TTOTC (ALMTFATS?).

    It talks about his acceptance about the whole thing (TAIAK,).

    It talks about his perpetual role in TTOTC (IDITANIW).

    FF has told us “Well I will give you a clue – try to simplify if you can. That’s good advice.”

    I am not sure that stanza #5 can get any more simple than that.

    IMHO, and respectfully submitted.


    • Bowmarc;

      Thanks for your post – a bit thought-provoking.

      When I started this adventure forty-three months ago, I had very similar thoughts. I may be wrong, but today I interpret those four lines quite differently. Good luck with your interpretation – It just might be right. JDA

    • Bowmarc,

      You may remember GermanGuy.
      His solution revolved around the idea of cancer related process of recovery and how it could be implemented to the physical world [ the basic idea ]. I did like some of his thoughts, and not so much others.

      Stanza 5…?… LOL.
      I have tried many different thoughts to why this stanza is even in the poem. I mean, the story of cancer is told of, so why bring it up again in the poem-?- if it just a filler type of stanza.

      One thought I {me} had was the idea, “i” in stanza 5 was actually fenn departing, passing on, on site. This is one reason for the thought “i” in stanza 1 was someone else.
      Which lead to the idea… one of the first [alone meaning] to come to the ‘new’ land from the ‘old’ land [ eastern world to the western world ] left his/her treasures on their bold quest. Treasure to be of one’s personal possession of importance. [in this case, Clovis points etc. which eventually became a trove of great value to anyone who found it, and their bones]

      LOL that was the start of who is I-?- for me and how does the solve relate to this idea. The thing is, it wasn’t about cancer itself, but more toward the idea of simply dying by almost any cause. The kicker was… the difference of then to the ideals of today… and fenn wanting to be in his church, so to speak when he was about to leave. Not unlike the ancients he studies by the collections of items he found so interesting to know they story behind them… hence the reason for the Bio. and some of his choices to place in ‘the trove’

      The subtlety of stanza 5 … imo.. with the above theory, is more about how folks lived and died with nature / in nature, [fenn’s personal stories of ‘his time period’] rather than, the reason that caused the death.

      “I” in both stanzas represented two different periods of time, in the humankind’s advancement through time [ “Knowlege” of self], and how their treasures [personal belongings { bio }] tells their story. Is this the big picture? Thinking down the road?

      Well, that might be a bit more dramatizing, story telling, than just knowing about the cancer part itself… But it would make a heck of a story if true. LOL I just don’t know if it would be fiction or nonfiction.

    • Thanks JDA and Seeker.

      There is more to my interpretation than the one I presented above, but such was the simplest way to do so, and in keeping with FF’s advice to do so.

      IMHO, however, FF has also given us a specific set of instructions about how to read the poem and applying such to stanza 5 is no exception, so my resulting interpretation (simplified above) is a result of keeping both in mind when doing so.

      As an example of what I mean as I say subtle yet powerful, I’ll give my full interpretation of the 4th line of stanza #5.

      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

      FF was fairly old when he hid Indulgence, so the simplistic thought of “I’ve done it tired” is because of his advanced age when he hid Indulgence. The past tense of those words is important to note because it is opposite of what is being said in the rest of the line.

      “And now I’m weak.”

      Such wording indicates a continuation of the weak condition, as in it is perpetual. My take on that is that once FF hid the chest, he can no longer have any control over TTOTC, and he knows and accepts such (this is a nod back to “the answers I already know”, especially since answers is plural) because such is his eternal self-imposed condition. What compounds this weakness is TTOTC itself—once he published the book/poem, the proverbial game is afoot. These two layers of weakness reinforce each other and keep FF in that condition.

      That’s how I reconcile my theory and FF’s simple advice on this line anyways.
      Part big picture, part simple, and part listening good.

      • I forgot to mention that part of my reconciliation process regarding stanza #5 is that it is definitely not filler because other elements of the stanza adhere to the instructions given to us by FF, and overall the stanza gets relegated into the hint category, which helps with the clues by eliminating itself from consideration as a clue. I think this way because as a category, I think cancer is one of those subtle hints in the book FF has made mention of. It wasn’t deliberately placed there, but an unavoidable topic he had to include none-the-less.

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