The Poem Married to a Map….

July 2019

By CharlieM

 

Apologies with the length to ensure clarity and the process involved in finding the clues. I do ask for all to put all biases aside and not use comments that came from Forrest Fenn in the past.

In my efforts for locating the treasure I have been looking for factual places, things and directions that I believe that pertain to the clues and hints within the poem. I base the style of searching of only matching the clues in the poem on a map. I have steered away from using the book “The Thrill of the Chase”, with its unintended hints sprinkled within the stories that may help. Basically I wanted to see if, just using only the poem and a map would work and not using most of the comments after the book came out from Forrest Fenn, including his later books and scrapbooks. However I did not ignore the comments from Forrest in regards to where not to search along with the high and low elevation limits. 

I took the first stanza of the poem, “As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where, and hint of riches new and old.”, as being stated by the man that hid a treasure by himself in the mountains; he’s going to keep the secret where the treasure is hidden and he is going to give hints to find the treasure chest full of new and old gold and jewels within the poem. The first stanza I took as and intro. This stanza has no clues and does not help in finding the treasure.

1st Clue –Begin it where warm waters halt” What does the word “warm waters halt” really mean?

Waters is plural; river water is made up of different water that merges together on its downhill course to become waters.

I looked at major rivers of the Madison, Jefferson, Yellowstone, Gallatin, Colorado, Arkansas, Animas and Rio Grande that would fit the words, “warm waters”. The Jefferson and the Gallatin rivers have a majority of cold waters, so I deleted those two from the search. All of the other rivers that I mentioned become warm in the majority length of each river naturally. 

With what I have wrote so far, the Madison, Yellowstone, Arkansas, Colorado, Animas and the Rio Grande have a majority of their waters are warm and has to originate in the Rocky Mountains. I feel those rivers can be considered as warm waters. Each of those rivers start out cold and become a “majority” of warm “waters”, the exception is the Madison River, as it starts out warm with the merging of very hot & cold water. Also the Madison waters do not halt in reality, (physics) and it is hard to consider where exactly it becomes fully warm. One may quibble about cold waters at the beginning of a river and later on becoming warm, the fact is, it contains the very same waters throughout its length, (physics).

In reading the poem we know there is a starting place and we all know there is a distance involved to be able to put in someplace below the home of Brown. So while taking a look at the rivers mentioned I also looked for a place named Brown and did not take into consideration for places that were named “Brown’s, Browns” or a name before Brown. I also felt the name Brown is of a geographical place in the mountains and found on a map. One can’t see on a geographical map in the mountains places of a person’s home that has a name Brown, fish and animals, nor did I consider towns named Brown, because there is no town with that name in places that I looked.

Melting snowpack causes the start of flowing water for each of those rivers. The water for rivers coming from the Rocky Mountains, do stop flowing, “halt”, at the same place from where they began. Sure, the rivers continue to flow because of other tributaries further down the line, but are farther from where the waters originally started and halted.

I discounted the Madison, Yellowstone, Arkansas, Colorado and the Animas rivers because they do not start and maintain the same name from where the waters start its actual flow, (physics). Each of those rivers start by “name” only, because they have two or more different named tributaries that merge together that make up the start of the “naming” of the river. It becomes a guessing game of which of the two or more starting tributaries are where warm waters halt. In order to be a halt of river waters it must be in one singular place where waters flow does halt, (physics), because of no snowpack and have no tributaries that merge together at its beginning. Also the rivers cannot be tributaries of any other river flow, because this creates and even bigger quagmire. 

Here are good examples that I found through research;

(a) The “named” Yellowstone River starts where two tributaries, the North Fork and the South Fork Yellowstone merge together. So which tributary is the right one where warm waters do halt? It becomes a guess, so the Yellowstone River is out with no place that is named Brown off in the distance.

(b) The “named” Madison River starts from two tributaries, where Gibbon and the Fire Hole Rivers merge. It becomes a guess as well. The Madison is out with no place that is named Brown off in the distance.

(c) The “named” Arkansas River starts where the tributaries of the Tennessee Creek and the East Fork Arkansas River merge together.  It becomes a guess as well. The Arkansas River is out with no place that is named Brown off in the distance. I did go one step further and went to the start of the East Fork Arkansas River to be fair and still no place that is named Brown.

(d) The “named” Colorado River starts where the tributaries of the Tonahutu Creek and the North Inlet Creek merge together before a dam. It becomes a guess also. The Colorado River is out with no place that is named Brown off in the distance.

(e) The “named” Animas River starts where the tributaries of the West Fork Animas River and the Burrows Creek merge together. The Animas River is out with no place that is named Brown off in the distance.

(f) The “named” Rio Grande is without any tributaries to form its beginning. It is a singular place where the river starts and has a true Headwaters. A majority of this river is warm, it has the same start and halt place (physics), it also has a place that is named Brown off in the distance. Also the Rio Grande is not a tributary of any river. I will also show later on, my concluded treasure location is nowhere near this river.

One other simplistic idea, “warm” could very well be in the southern Rockies which is usually warmer than the northern Rockies and could very well be considered to look at the rivers in the southern end of the Rockies. This simplistic idea does need more to substantiate this thought. Also, I did not consider any super heated water coming from any hot spring as being warm and that water is constantly moving and truly does not halt, even through seasonal changes. 

Reminder again; the melting snowpack is where the river waters start flowing (physics) and when the snowpack is gone the waters do “halt” (physics), which contains the very same river waters on its flow, for the entire length of the river. The majority length of the Rio Grande is of warm waters. 

So, the Rio Grande at its headwater, I have concluded this is the first clue’s answer to, “where warm waters halt”. By the way Forrest did say that the treasure is not “near” the Rio Grande. I believe I can show that the treasure is not anywhere near the river, the headwater is merely the starting point.

2nd Clue – “And take it in the canyon down,” But which canyon? There are three canyons in the immediate area using the map. So I chose the canyon and headed towards a place named Brown described in the radius area of search under the 3rd clue. I merely went to the canyon to go down from where the first clue is on the map.

 “Not far, but too far to walk” I believe this is a hint for a distance to arrive at the third clue. Too far to walk for me is about 7 miles, but I have to take into reasonable consideration that some folks may feel 5 miles is too far and for others it may be up to 15 or 20 miles. So, I cast a fifteen mile radius from the headwaters of the Rio Grande to help with the put in spot below the home of Brown. I’m not concerned about the distance at this point; it will become apparent when I know where, what or why, to “put in below the home of Brown.”

The 3rd clue is the end point of the distance from the first. (Note: This distance cannot be fully vetted until the location of below the home of Brown has been located. However a place named Brown was found in the general area. This does help somewhat in the direction to generally head towards.)

3rd Clue – “Put in below the home of Brown” Brown I took as a name otherwise it wouldn’t be capitalized at the end of the sentence. Brown I felt was a place or thing in nature, because normally one isn’t going to find a person or any other creature on a paper map or GE/GM in the Rocky Mountains. So, I’m looking for something named Brown in my radial search area. Again, the name Brown’s, Browns or has a name before Brown is not being taken into consideration. In my radial search I found Brown Mtn.

So below Brown Mtn. creates a problem, how far below is the “put in” place? Is it a foot, yard(s) or mile(s) below this mountain’s home? I physically went to Brown Mtn., above the town of Silverton, CO for the first time in my life and started looking for the clue as being “no place for the meek”. I didn’t find anything that represented as being meek, or causing one to be meek defined in a dictionary. Nor could I find anything else mentioned in the poem after “From there it’s no place for the meek”, directly below Brown Mtn. that fits, I returned home and went back to the map. (Note: With the first visit above Silverton, CO, of August 2017, I had not read “The Thrill of the Chase”, nor did I know of the blog sites. I became interested because of the pastor’s death through the news media. I started looking just for the challenge, and the treasure was a nice thing to have, I really don’t need it.)

It dawned on me while looking at the map that I had already been to an area that is “No place for the meek”, driving to and coming from Brown Mtn. The problem was, this area was not below Brown Mt. Studying the map from Brown Mtn., there is the canyon that starts at the base of the mountain that went directly all of the way to Silverton, which is below the mountain. It was then I found the “Put in” place below the home of Brown Mtn. and tied in with, “From there it’s no place for the meek.” It is the intersection after Taking it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk and highway 550, which is a “put in” place below Brown Mtn. that causes a momentary pause to head towards “no place for the meek”. (I did not consider the “put in” as a reference to water, because of Forrest parking his car.)

This I concluded is “too far to walk” from the headwater of the Rio Grande, (That distance now can be known, approximately 10 miles.) to the intersection of highway 550, and the “Put in below the home of Brown” Mountain. 

The image below shows the search Area. The red pins are clues and the Yellow pints are hints.

Image 1

CLICK ON IMAGE TO SEE IT LARGER

4th Clue- “From there it’s no place for the meek”. The first two words, “from there”, is somewhat vague in a way. It could mean to go to or through, or to head in the direction towards “it’s no place for the meek”. I did go through the “no place for the meek”, going to and from my first recon searching for what was the “Put in below the home of Brown”. I realized when I returned home looking at the map of the area that I had been there and felt very comfortable that the Hwy 550 from Ouray to Silverton, CO was “no place for the meek”.

My very first impression of the hwy was that it was unnerving to drive, because the hwy seemed narrower than other roads and there were little to no shoulders in many places with no guardrails. Driving along the road is cut out of shear steep rocks with shear steep drop offs and a long way to go to reach the rocky bottom. The road also had steep hairpin curves along the route. This is why I felt the route between Ouray and Silverton is “no place for the meek”. I did take into consideration that “some” folks wouldn’t be bothered driving this road, but not all folks would feel this way.

I felt I needed more to verify my thoughts and my word alone isn’t good enough. My wife and I needed some time away from home and went to Silverton for two days, just to explore the very old mining town. I did not do any searching as the San Juan National Forest was closed due to high fire danger.

My wife wouldn’t even look at the mountains or the deep chasms below along the route, because she would get sick because of the terrains height up and down, instead she read a book. Just for fun, I asked her if she wanted to drive on our return trip and it was a resounding NO. I also asked folks in Silverton and Ouray which were vacationers visiting shops, if they had driven the road from Ouray to Silverton and most of the comments where, spooky, scary, unnerving, being uneasy and did not want to drive the road again. I did ask the same question on my three other visits for my searches and the answers where basically the same. By the way, my close friend did drive to my following three searches, the first time up was uncomfortable for him driving the road and still was somewhat very attentive in driving the remaining search trips.

After I and my wife’s visit I went back to the map and started a search between Ouray and Silverton to see if the next two clues would fit in the area and have the need to go to or through “it’s no place for the meek.” Going through the route from Silverton it ends up at Ouray and from that town is all private property and out of the mountains. I also looked for a possible place that could be ever drawing near, “nigh” or something ever drawing to the left. This didn’t work out at all for either interpretation of, “the end is ever drawing nigh” because of the steep rocky canyon making it impossible to even search. 

So I now know what the phrase meant, “From there it’s no place for the meek”, from there is merely to head towards “no place for the meek”, which is the road along very steep solid rocks and hairpin turns, in the canyon between Ouray and Silverton. (Note: I feel if one discounts this without going to the area has no argument.)

5th Clue – “The end is ever drawing nigh” After searching through the “no place for the meek” as described above I found nothing that fit this interpretation of, “the end is ever drawing near”. I also thought that ever drawing near meant as never getting near the end. The other interpretation, “the end is ever drawing left”, I did find the road 558 on the map, it did slowly draw to the left all of the way to the end of the road. This Rd. 558 (gravel) starts approximately 2 miles just north of Silverton that is not in the canyon, it is well before, “no place for the meek”. So, the Rd. 558 is, “The end is ever drawing nigh”, (left).

6th Clue – “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high” Looking at the map there is a creek that runs along the side of Rd. 558, the creek is deep enough for watercraft, (canoes, kayaks, small rafts), to pass through. This creek I did see on my prior two visits. There is a small creek, Clear Lake Creek, which is impossible to paddle up. The creek is very narrow, rocky and steep, flowing through steep and high rocky walls on both sides and contains small waterfalls.

“Just” to me does not indicate for a searcher to go to heavy loads or water high. “Just heavy loads” can go up along the creek. Heavy loads can only mean one or two things, its either vehicles or back packing. The other, “water high” I took as, there is water high up the creek.

As it turns out there is a jeep trail that goes up to Clear Lake and there is a trail that hikers and backpackers use to go up to another lake, Ice Lake. So the hikers and backpackers and four wheelers going up the trail was strongly considered as “Heavy loads”. The “water high” up are the natural lakes.

The 7th clue, while looking at the map, the creek, high lakes and the trail does put one in a small location to search for the chest. I believe that was the intent of, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high”. If someone where to go up the jeep trail or the path, they are quickly beyond the high elevation limit set by Forrest, as not where the treasure is hidden.

 7th Clue – “If you been wise and found the blaze” Looking at the map, (Google Maps), I found only 3 things that could be a blaze, there is nothing else that could be considered as a blaze. The first thing that could be a blaze was the jeep trail going up the side of the mountain to Clear Lake. It stands out prominently on the map. The second thing that could be a blaze, is the hiking trail, because it too can be seen on the map. The third blaze can be seen as a white marking on the map, because of the creeks flow over the rocks and falls, which is Clear Creek.

On my next three visits to search, I was on time constraints because of my close friend’s obligations. I was not going by myself, as it is never wise to be on foot alone in the mountains. I and my friend, we are each other’s first responder. For each trip there was the driving and searching in one day, stay overnight in a hotel then drive back home.

The only way to verify each possible blaze was to find what could be considered as “in the wood”. For each of the blazes, one does need to be at the base in order to “look quickly down”. It didn’t make sense to look quickly down anywhere from the top of each of the probable blazes or anywhere in between. The problem was, there are four likely places that could be considered as “wood”.

I started with the least likely blaze, the jeep trail, because it was the farther of all from the small location. When one looks quickly down on the map for this blaze, there is an old log jam that can be considered as “in the wood”. The portions of the logs were not under water, which is where I first looked for the treasure, which by the way did not produce the chest. If standing at the base of this blaze, one clearly could not see the wood or this blaze.

My second least likely blaze trip to the area was to search below what I perceived as the white blaze being shown on the map. In looking quickly down, it also had some log jams just below the waterfalls of Clear Creek. This also proved to not contain the chest in the logs.

The third trip was because, there also was an old log jam on dry ground, below the true trailhead of the trail, the possible blaze, which could be seen from the map, but those logs, could not be seen while there. I did not much care for this log jam because it was in plain sight and near the campground and could be used and broken up for campfires. Never the less it had to be searched.

I and my friend did look in the first part of June this year 2019. This third trip was twofold; the primary reason for going up early was because there were many avalanches in the San Juan Mountains and the area I was searching was very near steep mountains, I wanted to know if the search area was effected by an avalanche. If the search area was not harmed, we were to search the old log jam. As it turns out there had been a very destructive avalanche in the area and that old log jam, which had been there before the Chase began, was gone because of the large surge of water, snow and downed trees, down the Ice Lake Creek and the Mineral Creek. 

While there I stood at the base of the Ice Lake Trail and looked quickly down, looking straight forward to about the quarter of the way to fully looking down. Sure enough my fourth in the wood stood out right away. The wood is an isolated group of three pine trees from the main forest trees. If one thinks about the trail as the blaze, it truly is in its self a blaze and needs no markers that guides one up to one of lakes and is a defined path to follow, unlike trails that are vague and needs markers (blazes) to aide someone to achieve their destination. I have determined the Ice Lake Trail to be the “blaze” it is tied to the 9th clue. By the way, “Tarry Scant”, I strongly feel means to, “not doddle with little time”, to stare at a marvelous find, for the place that contains the chest.

The fifth stanza of the poem, “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek? The answer I already know, I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.” This is merely a question as to why he hid the treasure; it does not have any clues or hints that will aide in finding the treasure. Forrest does know why he hid the treasure, before he hid the treasure he is stating he was tired before hiding the chest and was weak after the treasure was hidden. There also are no clues or hints in this line of this stanza that will aide one in finding the treasure.

8th Clue– “So hear me all and listen good, your effort will be worth the cold.” Some may think this line is included with the last clue; however it is not something to ignore. Standing at the base of the blaze, (trail), there is something in the way to get to the last clue and that is the “cold” creek, of the South Fork of Mineral Creek. One needs to take the “effort” to cross the rocky creek bottom with its “cold” water. On one side of the creek is shallow and the other side of the creek is deeper. For some it may not be that difficult and other’s it will take effort to cross.

9th Clue – “If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the cold.” If one is “brave” enough to go among the prickly needles and branches in the cluster of the three pine trees to get into the “wood”. (An area of land, smaller than a forest, which is a small group of growing trees) One should go in among the cluster of three pine trees to retrieve the treasure. I’m confident the cluster of the three pine trees contains the hidden treasure.

You may ask why I didn’t retrieve the treasure to complete the poem. At the time of my last visit this year, the creek was not safe to cross because of the melting snow runoff. Also I do not have the capability to cross the creek, even when the creek is at its normal level. I am a below the knee amputee and wear a prosthesis and I lose my balance while crossing rocks on dry land. I am not going to risk injury while trying to maintain my balance on slippery rocks and when I can’t fully see and feel what I am stepping on.

Can you imagine me going down with a heavy load on my back even at some 20 pounds on slippery rocks? If I did fall with a load of 20 lbs in this situation the likely hood of me not getting my feet under me is huge. My friend that I have and searched with has difficulty in this situation with a knee and hip replacements as well.

There is no other way to go down the other side of this creek as there are no bridges, roads or even trails, unless you wade across the creek.

I am very confident without an ego, that I have shown the clues within the poem are of actual places and things and the clues are continuous and solidly linked together. All that I ask is to study thoroughly with what I have presented and why. This I feel has nothing to do with coincidences.

The reality is, Forrest himself has not said a word about any clue’s answer or what the location is. Yes, he has given many hints, but has not pointed out its location references. Some of those hints that he does give out relate to a process that may help in finding the treasure. The subtle hints in his book, “The Thrill of the Chase”, I strongly believe those hints are a word or a combination of words and not so much about the stories themselves. I love his stories and scrapbooks about his life, family and friends and I am humbled that he has shared this with all. 

The person that does use what I have presented can go and possibly retrieve the treasure. I don’t know how Forrest would feel about this. I merely would like Forrest to know that his treasure has been found and he once again has his coveted silver bracelet with the turquoise stones. If not, I or anyone else will have to wait until the treasure has been found.

As for me the treasure is not a need to have, nor do I want to improve my lifestyle. I am comfortable were I am in life. (No I am not wealthy) It has been the challenge to solve the poem to see if I could fully fulfill the challenge. I also hope the one that does retrieve the chest, that they truly need the treasure for themselves and their family.

Here is my challenge to all of those that may respond to this post. Try very, very hard to not use what Forrest has commented on in the past as a means for a rebuttal except for those that are related to where not to search and the elevation limits and please don’t use a hypothetical as a basis for rebuttal. I am asking for sound facts related only to the Poem of actual places, things and directions it speaks of.

-CharlieM

 

 

 

 

135 thoughts on “The Poem Married to a Map….

  1. Thank you for sharing your Solve, Charlie. I do have one question. Hwy 550 runs from Silverton to Ouray and seems to be the only road. Did you mean Hwy 550 or is there a Hwy 558 that doesnt appear on Google Maps?

      • Charlie M I that was a great read on your research I do know that Ouray was named after the Ute tribes, chief, Ouray, thats a fact and the area is beautiful I’ve been there many times I think your a smart man not to risk your life with the snow melt. i found a medical, skeleton, in a cave in that area a few years back. thanks for sharing be wise always if its not safe wait a week or two always think. safety first

  2. Charlie

    You say, “Try very, VERY hard to not use what Forrest has commented on, but everything you just posted is a direct contradiction of what Forrest has commented on.

    DONT go anywhere a 79 or 80 year old man can not go.
    Park the car and walk right to it.
    The clues get easier as they go.
    Try to simplify.
    The Treasure is not hidden anywhere dangerous.

    There’s more, but it seems you’re trying to make some kind of point that I simply just don’t understand, as well as trying to sell your solve to all of us.
    Also, you say your asking for sound facts related only to………… Are you asking for us to give you the answers? As to where all our hard work has led us to?
    Sorry, IMO it just doesn’t hold water. Peace.

    • Pauley T,

      I did not go where an 80 yr old wouldn’t go. You might be thinking that the route is done by car. Forrest said he followed the poem, but he never said how. Part of the route is done via map, I merely followed the poem.

      • No, YOU did not go where an 80 year old would not go, but you are hoping that some other person does. Your solve places a person at risk of crossing a fast moving stream that you (with you prosthesis) would not cross. I equate a prosthesis with the abilities/disabilities of a 79 or 80 year old man – JMO – JDA

        • JDA,

          The Creek at the time I was last there in early June this year the water indeed was swift. After the runoff is done the creek is shallow and slow. If people don’t have enough sense to cross the creek at the time of high runoff, that is there mistake.

          I can most certainly guarantee that an 80yr old such as Forrest can cross the creek after runoff.

          No risk at all, thanks for your input. 🙂

          • By the way, don’t equate folks with disabilities such as I am with an 80 yr old with two working legs, this I am highly offend by what you said.

          • I apologize if I offended you. I am a 76 year old man with heart problems. I see individuals with prostheses on running marathons. I do not see someone like that as being “Disabled”. I see them with a disadvantage.
            At 76, with a heart condition, I am not disabled either, but I am disadvantaged. There are a LOT of things that I can not do because of this disadvantage. THAT is what I meant. If you were offended, I apologize – JDA

          • JDA,

            Those folks that are running have a special prosthetic which is not the norm and very expensive. There is a lot of the folks you call “disadvantaged” are in fact Disabled no matter how you look at it. This clearly shows you absolutely do not know anything about folks that have lost limbs. Again I’m offended.

            All that I ask is to keep your thoughts to yourself.

          • CharlieM;

            I again offer my apology. You obviously see yourself as disabled. If I see you as disadvantaged, when in fact you are disabled. I again apologize. The word Disabled says that you are not able to… and yet you do go out and search. I have said enough. I apologize and will say no more – JDA

  3. How do you know that the hints in the Thrill of the Chase are unintended? Forrest is much, much smarter than you think… He doesn’t make a comment, in person or in his writings, that is not rife with meaning.

    You’re playing with the Grand Master if you put into this game…

    • L Miller,

      I can’t at this time locate where Forrest said something along this line that he didn’t deliberately place the hints in the book and saw them after he had written the book.

      Some help in locating this would be great.

  4. This Post was fun to read. Now I have lots of thoughts to untangle. Yet, I’m not swaying. I have been called nuts by the screamers.

  5. My goodness, you put a lot of thought into your solve. Nice write up too. Surely you have a friend that can cross the creek.

  6. Thanks for sharing and it’s good to see you stuck with geography and didn’t get to wacked out with your clues but there are issues.
    The title of your post is a after the fact but you decided to use this statement but throw all the other after the facts out. Seems like a oxymoron to me.

    I would think a good detective or investigator would use all the relevant evidence including ATF’s that don’t contradict each other or where they are not clear.
    You also use the “Forrest parking his car” ATF.

    I think one of the biggest problem searchers have is they don’t know which lines, phrases and words in the poem are clues and I see this here as well. You started out good 1-5 but then you went off track. I consider “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” a clue without the HLAWH seeing you need to find this creek on a map and go up it. Place and direction.

    That’s just a few things I noticed in a quick read. There were some others where you seem to talk yourself into knots trying to explain something simple but made it more difficult to understand.

    By eliminating Fenns ATF statement about WWWH nearly all of them in the Rockies North of SF – you essential took your solve off the table as a viable solution from the get go.

    • Jake,

      All I ask is for you to take more time in reading, however try to look at things in a different light and not use your biases of your thoughts.

  7. U’re definitely thorough in your explanation and Stated it very well but…. In my opinion, I think you need to “drop the reins” and let the horse take you home. Don’t believe it’s quite that complicated. Cover your head tho in case a storm is brewing.

  8. CharlieM ~’I do ask for all to put all biases aside and not use comments that came from Forrest Fenn in the past.’
    ‘Try very, very hard to not use what Forrest has commented on in the past as a means for a rebuttal except for those that are related to where not to search…’

    There are no rules to responding to a post such as this; it is all open for discussion with “all” the information we have available… the term ‘bias’ is a scapegoat when things are stated that others don’t happen to agreed upon. With that said; fenn has stated many time, in many ways…

    ~ All that will be needed are the clues, some resolve, and a little imagination
    ~ Imagination is more important than knowlege.
    ~ Complacency is the misuse of imagination.
    ~ Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with
    their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly
    planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one
    who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself,
    ”what took me so long?”

    What I don’t see is imagination of any kind at work here… why is that?
    I ask for the reason… many post are similar to yours, yet never explain the use of imagination in a possible solve… when fenn suggest it is an important part of a winning solve.

      • CharlieM ~ ‘Brown I felt was a place or thing in nature, because normally one isn’t going to find a person or any other creature on a paper map or GE/GM in the Rocky Mountains.’

        Sure that is a reasonable assumption.
        But have you considered the “place” or “thing” can not be determined from either a map or GE?

        I know you don’t care for the idea of ATFs as a check and balance to anyone’s solution, However, we do have a few comments on hoB, and the Q&A about; clues solved at home… “All of them, in theory but not in practice…”
        Can you say for a ‘fact’ hoB is ‘known’ of by a map or GE? { I’m not talking your particular hoB.. I’m talking about knowing the correct hoB from a map/GE only }
        Another Q&A ~ answer only ~”Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f ”
        I don’t see “or” in this answer… but “and” explains those things need to be understood.

        I see no observing or planning involved in your solve.
        It begs the question; why are you so sure hoB, or any clues, passed the first two, can be deciphered by their location from a birds eye view [ GE and/or a good map ]? Is this where imagination might come into play?

        The fact is; we don’t know if all the clues references can be “deciphered” from home. Yet, once the correct clue references is “known” [possibly only done on site] that ‘place or thing’ could be see from GE or on a map, but not recognized without being on site to see it as fenn recalls it [from memory of the location and not using maps].

        My point is; In any solve like yours, there is no need to be at or know of any prior clue, if we can decipher the later / closet clues to the chest, by only a mapping system.

        I would need an explanation of how your solve would work if you didn’t have the correct WWHs, yet manage to decipher and find the correct hoB on a map.

        • Seeker,

          Not all of the work was done by map a large majority was botg. I did plan, you might be assuming that I didn’t.

          Lets see, I was at all of the clues except for the first 2. A question for you, for example could you see the road drawing to the left when your on the ground, the answer is likely no. Could you see that the creek I spoke of as not being a no paddle creek, on a map, again no.

          Don’t you think that a comprehsive understanding of geography is done without a map, the answer is no.

          You said, “I would need an explanation of how your solve would work if you didn’t have the correct WWHs.”. I can’t answer this because it is hypothetical. How can you find the home of brown if you haven’t found the first clue, makes no sense to even try.

          • Charlie,

            Unless I’m reading your hoB wrong, it is a name on the map, correct?
            Why would it be so hard to be looking at a map and discover your hoB prior to clue 1? I mean, it’s a MouNtaiN, and in a very popular searcher area.

            Its not a hypothetical. hoB can be found on the maps your working with.
            You said; ‘It dawned on me while looking at the map that I had already been to an area that is “No place for the meek”, driving to and coming from Brown Mtn.’ … ‘This I concluded is “too far to walk” from the headwater of the Rio Grande, (That distance now can be known, approximately 10 miles.) to the intersection of highway 550, and the “Put in below the home of Brown” Mountain.’

            IF Brown MT. is hoB, why worry about the distance from the headwaters? [ that distance in not mentioned in the poem, right? … you don’t need to know what WWsH is, all you needed was the map to be looking at and have your “named place” deciphered.
            There is really no need for WWsH if all we need to do is have a good guess, a hope, of where hoB could be and find it… then go from there.

            The problem is; fenn has repeated, if we don’t have clue one, we have nothing. MY question is; can we factually find hoB on a map? [the Birdseye view of a map or GE].

            You also noted: if a person doesn’t go there [ for your NPFTM ] there’s not argument to be made.
            Funny you should say this, cuz I have one. What’s to stop the county/state/feds from installing guardrails in those places that don’t have them now?
            Or even change the road 50-100 years from now, altogether? [widening, or changing it’s route, idea]
            Or shouldn’t we take into consideration; fenn was thinking down the road 100 yrs, 900 yrs. etc. when he wrote the poem.

            BUT, what I’m really curious about is what you “planned” for, that involved the clues / solve?

  9. CharlieM, this was a great read and your methodology is close to one that I have been using too. In your description of tracking down river headwaters that maintain their identity to their source, I can at least say that you overlooked at least a couple of other significant ones in your list. I also believe that you made an error about one of these in your description.

    I have also looked at the Rio Grande River headwaters for a good long while myself, but it seemed to me that there were too many things “off” in that area for me to make anything work. And then once Forrest eliminated the Rio Grande out of consideration entirely, that clinched it for me.

    I only seem to get out to the Silverton area once every few years, but if no one has checked your spot before the next time I go out, I can swing by to take a look and take some pictures of the pine tree area up close for you. No travel plans out there for me in the near future.

    Again, this was a particularly great read and I like the way you think, CharlieM! Thanks for sharing!

  10. Thanks for sharing your ideas Charlie. There are so many things to consider when trying to figure out Fenn’s poem and figuring out where to start. Putting any kind of limitation on what to use and what not to use in terms of information Fenn has provided over the years I think may be unwise. Whether all of his comments are useful or not becomes a matter of personal choice right out of the gate and smacks of bias immediately. I do agree completely that [simple] is the way to go… but to what extent is up for debate. There are some that say that they knew for sure that wwwh is the first clue…but it wasn’t until much later in the Chase that loco dug up definitive proof in the NZealand interview that it became a fact. Without that ATF many folks would be thinking otherwise and others second guessing themselves. Again…thanks for sharing and no beef from me… carry on.

  11. Hi CharlieM;

    A nice write-up. I enjoyed reading it. I do have a question or two though.

    Regarding Stanza #1:

    It may not be a clue, but I think that you are ignoring key words in the first stanza: “As I went alone in there” For me, “Alone” and “In there” are describing the place that Indulgence is secreted – A place that only one person can go “into.” Your final place does not seem to fit this very well, although you have not physically been there to prove or disprove this point.

    Going on to Clue #1:

    1st Clue – “Begin it where warm waters halt” What does the word “warm waters halt” really mean?
    Waters is plural; river water is made up of different water that merges together on its downhill course to become waters.
    I looked at major rivers of the Madison, Jefferson, Yellowstone, Gallatin, Colorado, Arkansas, Animas and Rio Grande that would fit the words, “warm waters”. The Jefferson and the Gallatin rivers have a majority of cold waters, so I deleted those two from the search.
    I looked at major rivers of the Madison, Jefferson, Yellowstone, Gallatin, Colorado, Arkansas, Animas and Rio Grande that would fit the words, “warm waters”. The Jefferson and the Gallatin rivers have a majority of cold waters, so I deleted those two from the search. All of the other rivers that I mentioned become warm in the majority length of each river naturally.
    With what I have wrote so far, the Madison, Yellowstone, Arkansas, Colorado, Animas and the Rio Grande have a majority of their waters are warm and has to originate in the Rocky Mountains. I feel those rivers can be considered as warm waters. Each of those rivers start out cold and become a “majority” of warm “waters”, the exception is the Madison River, as it starts out warm with the merging of very hot & cold water. Also the Madison waters do not halt in reality, (physics) and it is hard to consider where exactly it becomes fully warm. ***One may quibble about cold waters at the beginning of a river and later on becoming warm, the fact is, it contains the very same waters throughout its length, (physics)***

    Melting snowpack causes the start of flowing water for each of those rivers. The water for rivers coming from the Rocky Mountains, do stop flowing, “halt”, at the same place from where they began. Sure, the rivers continue to flow because of other tributaries further down the line, but are farther from where the waters originally started and halted.

    I am confused CharlieM. Above you state that certain revers are “Majority” warm, and yet you say that: “The water for rivers coming from the Rocky Mountains, do stop flowing, “halt”, at the same place from where they began.” If all rivers coming from the Rocky Mountains “Halt” at the same place. If this is true, why look for rivers that “Majority” are warm – by “Your” definition?
    The “Warm Waters” already “Halted” where the ice and snow melted – didn’t they?

    “I discounted the Madison, Yellowstone, Arkansas, Colorado and the Animas rivers because they do not start and maintain the same name from where the waters start its actual flow, (physics). Each of those rivers start by “name” only, because they have two or more different named tributaries that merge together that make up the start of the “naming” of the river. It becomes a guessing game of which of the two or more starting tributaries are where warm waters halt. In order to be a halt of river waters it must be in one singular place where waters flow does halt, (physics), because of no snowpack and have no tributaries that merge together at its beginning. Also the rivers cannot be tributaries of any other river flow, because this creates and even bigger quagmire.

    You lose me here Charlie. What difference does it make if the headwaters of a particular river has a name that is different than the river, or if it has one, two or five tributaries at its headwaters? Where in the poem does it say anything about this?

    Hunter/trapper John sees a creek and calls it “Firehole Creek” – and the name sticks. Hunter/Trapper/Explorer Louis and/or Clark name a River the Madison. It turns out that the Madison river originates at “Firehole Creek”. So what? Why should the fact that one creek was named “Firehole” and the River named “Madison” by other folks make a difference. The separation is based on “YOUR” set of rules, NOT something that was found in the poem. Or, at least, I do not see it written or even suggested in the poem.

    So, two points: You say that all rivers start and stop (Halt) at the same spot – where the snow pack melts – and yet you look for what YOU call “Majority” warm rivers. You then set your own set of rules that say that the headwaters MUST have the same name as the river, and that there can NOT be more than one.

    Where in the poem are these “Rules” established? Just askin’ CharlieM. Don’t get mad – 🙂 JDA

    • OOPS – I mis-quoted the first stanza – Should be “As I have gone alone in there…” NOT “As I went alone in there” Sorry – Fingers working – brain not engaged – Sorry – JDA

    • JDA,

      Thanks for your comments, the rules that I use are my personal rules in an effort to eliminate possibilities. How I went about doing research was to also not use the book to lessen a huge amount of information and not to influence my search a great deal. I wanted to see if searching could be done without the overload of information.

      I am also asking folks to open their mind of other possibilities.

      Thanks.

      • You say that you want to use only the poem and a map, and yet you establish your own set of rules as to how to narrow the clues down – and not look for these “processes” from the poem itself. Why not trust the poem to lead you, instead of establishing you own criteria for narrowing the clues down?

        You say: “I am also asking folks to open their mind of other possibilities.” Why should I open my mind to YOUR set of rules, when it is Forrest’s rules that need to be followed. Just askin’ and Just sayin’ 🙂 – JDA

        • JDA,

          I did look at the process of the poem, there is nothing that says I can’t use my own rules in an effort to solve the poem. It is “my method”. I fully used the poem, I’m not sure what you mean the “process of the poem”.

          I fully understood that folks would bulk at the idea of not using the book as an aide. I was merely “asking”, doesn’t mean you have to.

          Tell me something, do you have rules in searching? I would think that you do. Could you point me to where Forrest set the rules and we should abide by them in searching for the treasure?

          Forrest has indicated to think, analyze, study and learn, those are good advice, but not rules. Also Forrest has mentioned more than once to marry the poem to a place on a map and the was his advice for new searchers. That was my whole approach was to marry the poem to a map.

          Thanks again 🙂

          • I have commented too much already CharlieM. Forrest keeps saying to nail down the first clue – WWWsH. I would think that the begin spot would, in fact, have some WARM water associated with it, and not COLD water, but what do I know? Nada. I have commented too much already. Again, Nice write-up CharlieM. I hope that your solve directs someone to Indulgence. Thanks for giving others that chance – so long as it is not dangerous – JDA

  12. Hello CharlieM. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You mentioned wanting to know only sound facts about the poem relating to places, things, and directions, but I feel searchers have their own understanding of the poem and what it relates to. Do you mean sound ideas? One of my ideas for “Begin it where warm waters halt,” was Los Alamos. There may be others who have thought the same, but I’m not sure if it would be considered a sound fact.

    • pdenver,

      Let me ask you this, can you soundly show that my places are false? There are too many actual places that do solidly coincide with the poem such as Brown, no place for the meek, end is ever drawing nigh, no paddle creek, water high, etc. and they are in consecutive order.

      The only way for someone to dispute my theory is go there. I’m being stubborn and have opened my eyes to other thoughts shared in a way to discount this theory.

      These are mere arguments, I’m glad that you read my thoughts and I do thank you. Just something to think about. 🙂

      • CharlieM;
        You say: “There are too many actual places that do solidly coincide with the poem such as Brown, no place for the meek, end is ever drawing nigh, no paddle creek, water high, etc. and they are in consecutive order.” Let’s start with the one you didn’t mention WWWsH. Thew poem clearly states “Begin it where warm waters halt…” and yet you begin it where cold waters emerge from the snow pack, and take a canyon down some long distance until the waters are “Majority” warm. Isn’t this backwards? You throw out one [place where WARM waters do halt – Fire hole/Madison. I personally do not think that this IS the place that WWWsH, but it at least does have WARM waters merging (halting) with cooler waters. Sorry CharlieM, but to me your logic just seems a bit frayed. JMHO – JDA

        • Not trying to be obstinate, but you posted your solve, and asked for comments. If I see a hole in the logic of my solve, or in any published solve, I feel that it ought to be examined. If you have logical reasons that can be explained, to yourself, or those that read your post, GREAT. If not, a reexamination is in order. I feel the same about what portions of my solve I publish. All comments are fair comments IF LOGICAL – JMO – JDA

        • I think he reads it as – Begin it where cold freezing waters get warm –
          That’s what I get when I read his theory.
          Hey, his rules….

          • Jake,

            Consider the entire length of the entire river and a majority of the waters does in fact become warm. I am not saying the water gets warm right out of the gate.

            Please understand those rules that I have are for me and me only. You have closed your mind and won’t even consider anything else. If you are truly doing that, I do sincerely hope you the best of luck with a closed mind.

            I expected you would be snide, just because.

          • CM: ” melting snowpack is where the river waters start flowing (physics) and when the snowpack is gone the waters do “halt” (physics),”

            Where is “warm” in your theory?
            Miles away down stream…

            I think you left the poem at the beginning when you once again ignore the word “warm”.

            I’ll close my mind to anyone that ignores any word in the first clue and I’m pretty sure whoever does that will never find the treasure.

          • Jake,

            Yes, but it has the very same waters, you shouldn’t cut off the rest of the river just because a majority is warm and it starts out cold, again the very same waters.

            Another way to look at it, exploring the river up to its end the waters halt and it is the very same waters from where they started up the river.

          • Ain’t nobody gonna change your mind on that CM.
            My mind is flexible as long as the water is warm and then halts. Your waters do not do this no matter where it is.
            Good luck in your backwards rabbit hole for where you think it begins and your twisted interpretation. I certainly wouldn’t spend a penny on that trip. Have fun!

          • Jake,

            Yep, you are biased and that in its self may be what prevents you from looking at things in a different way, this goes for some others as well. This happens with others that have posted their theory.

            You do this for most folks you are right and they are wrong, there is no open mind for you.

            At least I gave a solid effort and sound reasoning. You on the other hand posted not long ago that you didn’t know where the warm waters halt.

            Yes I believe in my theory and I am not saying I’m correct, I simply put it out there, twisted or not in your mind.

            Thanks for your input, even though you say things out of contempt to me. My mind is always open for different views and not so rigid as you claim I am.

            There’ll be no further comments to you, because of your history of contempt.

          • You are also biased CM and that’s what also prevents you from looking at things in a different way.

            “sound reasoning” lol
            “You on the other hand posted not long ago that you didn’t know where the warm waters halt”

            I know exactly WWWH is and have tested my hypothesis and went for a swim just to see and feel if that was the case and it was. Have you?

            I’ll bet you will comment to me again.
            YAGTHTLW is why you will.

      • “There are too many actual places that do solidly coincide with the poem ….”
        Funny, that’s what everybody with a failed solve says. It’s called confirmation bias.

        • Colokid,

          I haven’t seen any post that factually states what a clue is. What I do see are a lot of hypothetical, speculations because of what the stories are in the book, and some folks use ATF as a reasoning for a clues answer.

          Naturally I can’t prove my theory if it is correct or not, because the 9th clue cannot be reached by me because of the 8th clue. Others may be able to prove or disprove my theory, that is what I am hoping for, but not counting on it.

          I don’t know anyone personally that would go get the treasure that is able bodied and trustworthy. I have asked, so I am basically SOL.

          • CharlieM,
            “I haven’t seen any post that factually states what a clue is.” (Not sure what that is supposed to mean.) “What I do see are a lot of hypothetical, speculations because of what the stories are in the book, and some folks use ATF as a reasoning for a clues answer.”

            Fundamentally I don’t see any significant difference in your solution compared to most of the others posted here. Pretty much everyone does the same thing: they look at maps, they try and match poem phrases to physical places, and with a heaping helping of rationalizing it all hangs together like a house of cards. Been there, done that. It’s almost impossible not to delude yourself into believing once you’ve gone past a certain point.

            Let’s just look at your “no place for the meek” idea. It’s based on anecdotal interviews of random like-minded people who agreed with you and, you telling how petrified your wife was…. This is just personal perspective, hearsay, and the flimsiest of evidence. Where’s the factual basis? There’s dozens of roads like this. Heck, my in-laws were terrified driving up the narrow winding road at the south entrance to YSP.
            Again, this decision making approach is no different than someone saying they see maps in the illustrations of the book or listing a tortured and twisted analysis of some ATF.

            I think your basic idea of trying to anchor a solution to known facts is great. I just don’t see how you’ve accomplished that and I hope you realize that these places only ‘ solidly coincide with the poem’ from your perspective. Otherwise, all you would hear is car doors slamming as everyone rushed off to Silverton.

        • Colokid,

          How I accomplished what I did? Was study, learn, analyze. From what I get from your last paragraph you seem to think I snatch things out of thin air. I know you didn’t say that I snatched, but that is how it comes across.

          You may say, hearsay about no place for the meek, well it was very real, those questions I asked were very real with very real answers, its like saying to me I wasn’t being truthful.

          If you have not been to this place, how can you discount what I said? Here’s a suggestion, go there.

          It’s easy to criticize, and I expected this as well as nay sayer’s, but yours is yours no doubt but you haven’t given me anything to ponder. 🙂

  13. Forrest wrote.

    Me and the Mountains
    When I was a kid my family spent the summer months each year in West Yellowstone. (Do you think he would really disclose the location???) The five of us were crammed into a one room cabin that had no running water or go-away plumbing.

    “I loved roughing it and maybe that’s why I fell in love with the Rocky Mountains and Jeremiah Johnson.”

    Maybe, just maybe, is that a hint?

    Those looking in Colorado you might want to check this out.

    continentalranchatcreede.com The cabins; no running water or go-away plumbing.
    Begin it where warm waters halt, headwaters of the Rio Grande (see my papers on dal site)
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Put in below the home of Brown, Brown Lakes, up Clear Creek.

    Up Clear Creek, three Paleoamerican reported sites. Walking distance from the Continental Ranch. There could be more, not reported. I can keep my secret where.

    Those looking in Colorado might be able to connect the dots, someone needs to find the chest.

  14. I have searched in that are, and have as of yet to rule it out. Although I did not find Forrest’s Treasure there, I did find a small treasure there. It was a 4.39 pound surveyor’s ingot of pure silver.

  15. Know of a couple of newer mining claims along clear creek. I am told you can still get a mining claim if you find something, You have to understand the process.

  16. Why would Forrest say he was going to leave his car at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.

    Maybe just maybe it had something to do with ………….

    “The Coffin family, along with a family friend, discovered the Lindenmeier site in 1924. They recognized the fluted points as different from the abundant and smaller arrow points found on many local sites. At this time, no one knew the antiquity of these distinct tools.

    Several years later, the Colorado Museum of Natural History (now the Denver Museum of Nature and Science) documented identical points at a bison kill in northeastern New Mexico, naming them “Folsom” after the local village name. Following this event, scientists sought additional examples of Folsom sites for comparison.” Colorado Encyclopedia

    I can keep my secret where, ………… maybe just maybe a Folsom site Forrest discovered.

    • Doug Meyer,

      Doug Preston made that statement, parking in Denver. Doug himself doesn’t know at all where Forrest parked his car.

      • Hints: Mexico Beach, Tyndall Air Force Base. Everyone who lives on the gulf coast, understand the phase “Warm Waters” of the Gulf of Mexico, and where to they halt within the search area, at the head waters.
        Start at the Warm Waters of GOM and work your way back using the rivers that feed the GOM. Find the headwaters of all of these different rivers, within the search area. “There are many places within the search area where warm waters halt.” Imagination maybe, just maybe.
        Someone needs to find the chest.

    • Doug,
      An earlier version of where Forrest would park his car had it at NAU. NAU has a noted anthropology and archeology department, including a lab for lithic analysis of stone tools. With both locations having a strong connection to arrowheads this might be more than coincidence.

      I agree with the idea behind your last line, the connection to arrowheads has to do with an earlier clue since Forrest has said that there would have been issues with the chest being on Indian land. But an archeological site might have been what initially drew him to the general area where he then found his special spot. IMO

      • Hello JW. I believe which you stated has a strong possibility when comparing the two museums. The “Do Not Touch” may represent things behind glass with artifacts/history being preserved. It makes me wonder if the scrapbook about “Pickles” the fishing lure to suggest “preserves”. Being “canned” may hint to it, too.

  17. CharlieM,
    I can’t help but think that your insistence in trying to stick with “facts” is actually a detriment in this case. What is a fact in the case of a poem? It’s really only what you perceive it to be and then there you are….relying on your own biases. It’s a good thought and worth pursuing but I’m not sure you nailed it.

    Here’s some problems I have…. laid out a ‘factually’ as I can:
    1) You say you chose the Rio Grande because: “The “named” Rio Grande is without any tributaries to form its beginning. It is a singular place where the river starts and has a true Headwaters.” The topo map I’m looking at shows at least three feeder tributaries in the head-water basin…one is named Deep Creek. I’m pretty skeptical that any river has zero tributaries all the way to a pin-point source. So isn’t this a relatively arbitrary decision point you’ve constructed?
    2) Clue #2: “But which canyon? There are three canyons in the immediate area using the map. So I chose the canyon and headed towards a place named Brown described in the radius area of search under the 3rd clue.” Which canyon indeed…you don’t name it? And let’s be honest there are a whole pile of canyons to choose from here but to get to the one you choose you have to cross up and over the continental divide. That doesn’t make these clues exactly flow together nicely. And furthermore, all those canyons on the west side drain ‘down’ into the Animas River. So you can’t go down canyon or south to ‘head towards a place named Brown’. The canyon might be roughly aligned in the direction of Brown Mt in an ‘upward’ direction but, again, this seems like a bit of tortured logic. Does the poem really lead to the canyon or does the preconceived notion of what “Brown” must mean lead to the canyon. And since we have to (“take the canyon down”)by heading upstream in other secondary canyons (Animas or Mineral or Cement Creek) and in a northerly direction to get to Brown (via canyons), why do you then decide that HOB is now situated downstream and in a southerly direction relative to ‘Brown’? Sounds arbitrary and awkward.
    3) If you’re going to tackle this like a crime scene investigation, wouldn’t you think the motive behind this hunt would be important? Forrest’s stated purpose was to get people out into nature (perhaps not driving around in nature) and, at one point, leave his body in a very special place. But your analysis fails to answer how/why this spot you choose could possibly be special to Forrest? Honestly from your description it sounds like a very public place and seems like it would be easy to stumble across.
    Bottomline, gonna have to agree with Ken (too many limitations on the thinking), Seeker (lack of imagination in the clue solves) and Jake (very ironic story title given you don’t use ATF’s).

  18. Charlie, you wrote,
    I base the style of searching of only matching the clues in the poem on a map. I have steered away from using the book “The Thrill of the Chase”,

    ” Well, there are nine clues in my poem and one is in my book.”f
    You might want to use the book too!
    -B

    • where is that said? Are you referring to :
      “There are nine clues in the poem, but if you read the book (TTOTC), there are a couple…there are a couple of good hints and there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.” Moby Dickens Book Shop 34:41 mark

  19. Charlie,
    You should reconsider the Arkansas River valley south of Buena Vista, CO.
    Brown Ranch, Brown Canyon of the Arkansas River, and (formerly) the Brown RV Park.
    Access the river both above and below Browns Canyon.
    BradR

  20. I remember doing an armchair search of your solve using google earth awhile back. I thought that your solve was solid and I still do.
    My only problem was that the terrain was difficult for my disability. Any place off of the trail is difficult for me.
    My current interest is wondering what f was doing when he found his secret place. And why he chose to put treasures back onto the ground there. I think it was an area where he found Indian artifacts. In my opinion.

  21. Thanks for posting your ideas, Charlie. Needless to say, your solution processes are completely different from my own, but I can respect the amount of time and effort you’ve put into your write-up. Hopefully you can find a friend or relative to check your preferred solution point in August when things are warmer and the water lower/slower.

    I, too, want someone to find the treasure soon. To that end, I will offer some alternative ideas for others to ponder.

    In order to actually pinpoint a 1-foot square area precisely, FF must impart definitive information in some manner. I see several possible ways to do this:

    Convert letters to numbers in some way in order to provide an exact coordinate as a final answer. I think most here discount this possibility, so I’ll take this one no further.

    Identify one concrete geographic point on a map that is small enough that the precise lat/long for the start point is useful. From there, one line of bearing and one way to stop travel along that line is needed. But even this simple concept requires detailed information. For radial direction is it in magnetic or true bearing; azimuth only, or altitude, instead? To stop is the distance standard millimeters, inches, meters, feet, kilometers, or miles, or something else like elevation?

    I don’t see any of these concepts involved in your solution, so what are your thoughts regarding how FF intended the box to be discovered?

    I, personally, see many uses of words that can indicate answers to questions like those above.

    “As” sounds like, “Az,” which is short for “Azimuth.” But if “Azimuth” is to become useful, letters must be converted to numbers unless “Too” (the only word in the poem that directly correlates to a number by true definition; too=2 in military vernacular) is used to indicate a specific line of bearing from point A toward another point B on a line exactly 2 degrees off from a cardinal direction like N or S or SE, etc.

    Next, I postulate that warm waters can halt whenever someone, or something, dies.

    Overall, the concept of death seems to fit the poetic tone of the poem better than simply looking for a water-driven start point. Rather, I prefer looking for specific graves that might be of great use to a relatively simple set of instructions to a canny searcher.

    For example, dissecting the first two lines:

    As sounds like Az (Azimuth)

    I sounds like Eye (Implies one person alive)

    Have sounds like Halve (changes interpretation scale immediately . . . Also changes past tense to present tense!) In reverse, Evar sounds like Ever, as well.

    Gone sounds like GON (a word bit that is a noun). Also implies one person who is dead.

    Alone sounds like A Lone (implies a singular point is being described). Also reiterates that one person alive and potentially one person dead are critical concepts.

    There could be split into T Here or T Her E.

    And could imply simple addition (+ sign) . . . In reverse, DNA could imply linkage to a grave, as well.

    With might augment “And” such that “And With” implies addition together (+ sign). Alternatively, Wit H might provide a hidden key that the letter H is vital to a successful solution.

    My sounds like Mi, possibly meaning that distances are to be interpreted using miles, or it could be a totally innocuous possessive, as well.

    Treasures is a very interesting and potentially complex word to examine. “T” “Reasues” is possible. “Treasures” might imply gold, which comes from ORE. If so, ORE + GON can provide a research starting point from which to find places of interest, whether they be waterways, graves, or other things entirely.

    Bold can be split into “B” and “Old” . . . Perhaps an old grave of a person named “Brown” would make sense, eh?

    In short, I see Oregon T(rail) Here as the general area start point alluded to.

    Research into the Oregon Trail led me to Estella Brown, an emigrant who died in the “V” of Hobble Creek on the Lander Cutoff in July 1891. Her tombstone provides a very explicit start point for a true treasure hunt that could be as simple as one radial and one distance, or elevation, for a stop point, or as complex as a series of movements in multiple directions and distances.

    Consider “Begin:” could be Brown Estella Grave In where In abbreviation for Interred.

    “It” could then be the actual process of moving through the surrounding territory (on the USGS Poison Meadows map).

    Consider that “Hobble” begins with “H” and is a synonym for “Halt”.

    Thus my process has quickly put us on the map via the Oregon Trail and solved wwwh and HoB with one singular “Ever Drawing” (writing on her stone).

    Alternative food for thought for anyone interested. Regards and good luck to all.

    • reply to Iowaengr
      So knowing where True North is located , is like knowing where the Harmony Mission to Grand River Trail Head is? Being the same location? I do know that the trail forked off I always assumed one way went to the Ford and the other went towards some land owned at one time by the U.S government . I also recall finding the tree Blaze while coon hunting as a child of what looked like to me some sort of peace treaty of the Indians and possibly the Spaniards shaking hands.What always struck me odd was the indians height in the carving they looked like giants. Also down river was a owl carved out of a tree stump.

  22. Charlie, I have to agree with many concepts you used in this write up, since I have also been told by Dal in past Fennboree that his site gets hundreds of thousands of Hits from searchers who seriously consider these type of solutions, like yours and mine to be important way to consider the possibilities for their own imaginings, because imagination is all that gives an edge to the lead searchers, and tenacity is not a short coming for one who puts his solve to the test of public criticism, this is after all the only way to get us there, to that special place.

    One thing I like about your thinking is the Big Picture, and in the Big Picture, at 1885 miles, the Rio Grande Also Known As the Rio Bravo has a lot of Warm Water, as does the entire Southern part of the Rockies, so consider this: What if WWWH is the Border of the big picture, like something you have not comprehended yet, since you did not read Important Literature Chapter in the only given as having hints, our Thrill Book, if Borders Books and Border Line Biddies does not make you wanta re think WWWH then perhaps what you solve is possible lacking is IMAGINATION, as yourself why would Forrest Fenn, a sworn 50 odd year loyal customer to Collected Works go to Borders, a BIG BOX Store, I see that as an aberration, and so will anyone who knows ff and his habits, why give all the proceeds for his work to them, if he was not a life long loyal customer, only one reason…Hint….BOrders is the message.

    Once in College at University of NM I read many of those great works by Hemingway and also a little know book called “The Medium is the Message” :Marshall McLuhan, to sum up the book of any book one would do well to understand this message of Marshall’s “It means that the nature of a medium (the channel through which a message is transmitted) is more important than the meaning or content of the message. Another words the medium IS THE MESSAGE in many writings.

    My message is simple here, WWWH is sublime and general but truly specific to understanding and locating the Treasure, it is one of the Borders in our imagination, just like solving a child’s jig saw puzzle, start at the borders and then group the colors, while viewing the big picture. The home of Brown may be both a denotation and a connotation, even a color, what does it take (home of) to make Brown?

    Thorough, Charlie M, write up and all it needs is imagination and TTOTC for background.

    TT

    • TT,

      I believe Forrest said a little imagination. Although you have quite a bit of imagination, nothing wrong with that. I don’t see how that helps in locating clues as borders having something to do with clues. Isn’t it an assumption without a answer?

      • CharlieM, some people like to watch the movie first, some read the Book. It would pay you to read the book, and then Jungle Wisdom in TOO FAR page 106 at that same longitude, Eastern Hemisphere, Laos.

        Often our view of the world is skewed by our first impression, we use our feelings first and thinking comes in second, which is how we humans navigate life, finding the Treasure seems to follow that line of reasoning so ultimately the one who looks through the poem and imagines it with accuracy will find the treasure, and take it to the bank.

        Feelings are not right or wrong, they are our impressions, some see this poem as a map, I see it as a puzzle, Forrest’s riddle that can rattle even the quick of thought, and Forrest wrote it as a mystical journey home to his special place where dreams are real. “Reality is wrong. Dreams are for real.” Tupac

        TT

  23. Hi Charlie. Thanks for sharing your revised solution with us; it was easy to follow along with your thought processes. The map you shared shows us a nice (partial) view of the Silverton Caldera, which is embedded in I believe the San Juan Caldera. This may be too imaginative for you, but I’ve thought that a caldera would make a splendid WWWH. It’s a big bowl, after all. And at one time an enormous volcano.
    Have you explored the Ironton area, just “below” Brown Mountain at all? Might be worth a gander. There is a really interesting ” heavy loads and waters high” over there. An elevated wooden sluice line still exists high above the canyon and into Ironton Park; it was built to carry slurry tailings from the Idarado Mine to Ironton (I’m speaking from memory here). Corkscrew Gulch had to be spanned by the pipeline and at one time was the highest suspension bridge in the country. You can still see the pipeline; its circular (like a flume) and made of wooden slats. Heavy loads and water high!

    • Sally,

      I did take a gander of the old Ironton area, the trouble with this area there is no water high, There jeep trails, however it is not something for a car. Also Forrest mentioned that the treasure is not associated to a structure. Those that you mentioned for water high and heavy loads are man made structures. I am familiar with the mines history in this area there are several.

      Thanks for your input.

      • Charlie…Forrest, to the best of my knowledge, said “the treasure isnt associated with a structure”. I believe there is also a hearsay comment that the clues aren’t associated with a structure. But the hints, which are supposed to lead us to the clues, were not included in these statements. I dont know anything, but there is nothing to say either way if HLAWH is a hint, a clue, both, or neither. The poem doesnt tell us.

    • A ways NE of Silverton, I once liked (and still do, kinda) Lake San Cristobal and the Slumgullion Slide as “heavy loads and water high”.

      JAKe

  24. Charlie——

    Thanks for sharing with us! A lot of very good thoughts! Just a couple of corrections—no big deal— but I’m kind of anal retentive. lol. You say “If you been wise and found the blaze”. The actual wording is “If you’ve been wise…”.

    You also say “If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the cold”. This is actually “title to the Gold”.

    Again, just being picky, but feel it is very important to use the actual wording in the poem. For me this is very important.

    I did think of something while reading your article. It actually contradicts what you think though. I believe “As I have gone alone in there” is a clue. This leads me to ask for other searchers help with something:

    Does anyone recall WHERE Forrest states, when referring to an airplane that continually needed repair, that the men who worked on it referred to her as the “hanger queen”?

    Was it in a Scrapbook? If you can help with this I would greatly appreciate it. I remember it vividly but just can’t remember where I saw it. Thanks to anyone who can be of assistance.

    I don’t post a lot as I listen quite intently to the ghosts of Billy Barry and M.C. Escher as they have a lot to say. Billy is always short on words, and Mr. Escher is poor and always trying to make ends meet. I wish everyone the best though and thanks again to Charlie— wanted to thank you again at the tail end.

        • You’re welcome, Sparrow. “Hanger Queen” reminds me of Queen’s Laundry in Yellowstone, or at least I think that’s what it’s called. Then again, it reminds me about hanging with a new rope to show respect (paraphrasing) in TTOTC book.

          • What I found interesting Pdenver is that Forrest is fully aware that the word “hanger” is spelled incorrectly. It should be “hangar queen”. So this has intrigued me.

            Thanks again for that link!

    • Sparrow,

      You are correct that I didn’t use the correct wording, that was not intentionally done on my part. Never the less that does not diminish what I wrote.

      Why didn’t you come outright and say what you thought about what I wrote as being broken? You may have been trying to be kind, but I like folks that come outright in what they are thinking. But hey, thanks 🙂

  25. meBigGuy,
    No, I found the quote I used on TarryScant, 12/31/14 id# 4651. It’s from an radio interview, I think.
    -B

  26. WOW, a lot of analysis there.
    1. Going up a canyon and over a mountain from WWWH before TIITCD kills it for me.
    2. Try starting at Ouray hotsprings.
    3. What do you think is special about your place (to Forrest)? Good fishing?
    4. I think the road is 585 (on my maps, at least), not 558

    Interesting that 550 is called Million Dollar Highway. Neat area.

    Now I’ll violate your rules just to supply some information that I feel is pertinent. Don’t feel you need to defend your solve, or even read them.

    I, personally, can’t discount FF saying that if you find the blaze the distance to the chest will be obvious. I don’t see how you can just ignore that.

    Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey
    Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help? f
    AND
    “The clues will lead you to the treasure and whether it’s buried or not, you can find it if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

    Which, IMO, makes the blaze the last clue, and we all know
    “Google Earth cannot help with the last clue. f”

    I admire people that can put it out there. Keep up the analysis.

    mBG

    • oops, Ouray hotsprings is down river — my bad

      BTW, ATF: “If someone where to go up the jeep trail or the path, they are quickly beyond the high elevation limit set by Forrest, as not where the treasure is hidden.”

      • A little known local’s secret – there are (undeveloped roadside) hot springs just a few miles SW of Silverton on the 550. Quite close to Brown Mountain and heavy loads/water high.

          • Blex…you are absolutely correct. The hot spring is NW of Silverton. Right at the Chattanooga corner. I posted at 4am on my way to work before coffee kicked in.

          • SallyColorado – Thanks for confirming! It looks like there’s a Browns Gulch right in that area too. I found a nice website summarizing the rise and fall of the ghost town of Chattanooga. Interesting stuff! 🙂

        • Blex…since you expressed interest I’m not sure if you saw my post up thread about an interesting heavy loads and water high further north up the 550/ Million $ highway. Corkscrew gulch makes me think about Miss Ford and can openers.

          • Sally Colorado – I had overlooked your post up higher, but just read it and there’s some interesting stuff there. I’ve thought about a caldera as well as a possible WWWH and similarly, a tarn which is a smaller bowl without an outlet (the main problem I find with those is that most of them are at very high elevations and not close to a canyon down). The name Idarado Mine makes me think about the book “Loom of the Desert” that Forrest mentioned at one point.

            Have you searched yourself in these areas? It seems like you know the area well and sounds as if you may have gone through with a fine-toothed comb already! 🙂

        • Blex…I havent searched that area (doesnt feel “Fenny” enough to me I guess) but live pretty close and am familiar with the lay of the land so to speak. I know the area where Charlie is searching intimately. Too crowded anymore in the S. Mineral area for my taste these days. Remember the sales girl drinking coffee out of a cup that nearly covered her face? I think that is possibly a hint to a caldera. Two eyes above the rim….?? I will go back and read Loom of the Desert again. Thanks!!

          • Sally Colorado – Yes, it seems like too many places in Colorado are getting too crowded! I can’t remember the reference to the sales girl, but know I’ve read that description before. Could be!

            BTW, I was just mentioning “Loom of the Desert” because the author’s first name is “Ida”. I haven’t actually read the cheap copy I bought yet, but it’s on my to do list. No need to read the whole thing again based on what I said (unless you really want to)!

          • Blex, the sales girl at Border’s Bookstore. Important Literature.

    • mBG,

      I did ignore the distance from the blaze, for a simple reason. I did not retrieve the chest, so I can’t fully determine the distance. If I had retrieved the chest then I would know the distance and it would be obvious.

      You think the last clue is the blaze, those are you thoughts which you are entitled to do. Can you tell me for certain the blaze is the last clue? I would think not, because you haven’t found the treasure. Just thinking rationally. 🙂

      • Not so rational if you interpret the blaze comment as you have. He did not say if you retrieve the chest the distance from the blaze will be obvious (duh). He said if you find the blaze, the distance to the chest will be obvious.

        Your reliance on “you don’t have the chest” to invalidate others opinions is a character weakness. I hope you give it up. Just say you don’t agree, which of course, is fine.

  27. Hey CharlieM … You are wise to steer clear of TTOTC for those few “hints”, and instead go with the poem alone. And of course I totally agree with you that using a map to find places that correspond to each of the nine clues is the best approach to solving the poem.

    My major problem with your overall solution (discussed in both write-ups) is that it seems overly conventional. For example, is it not possible that WWWH has nothing to do with temperature? I don’t see much imaginative thinking in this solution.

    Your write-up here looks very similar to your write-up I recall from a year or two ago. Why this new one?

    Keep plugging away.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • When I first discovered Vale of Tears, I got goosebumps. But, I couldn’t make it work, and it’s in a National Park.

    • Ken (in Texas),

      I think the path of CharlieM’s solution is the reason for it being overly conventional.

      By not using any hints and/or the first stanza, I think this write up is a good example of the upper limits of what that type of solution looks and feels like.

      I think the hints provide the eureka moment.

      • FD … sounds to me like that maybe you’re getting “conventional” mixed-up with “straightforward”.

        Forrest has said the clues are straightforward. And CharlieM’s approach of finding 9 clues that identify 9 different locations is straightforward.

        I have always used this approach. But some of my interpretations of clues have not been conventional. For example, in one of my solutions, for WWWH, I interpreted the clue as referring to >>> Bedrock. I have never encountered another searcher using that concept for WWWH; so it is most assuredly unconventional. And as I said to CharlieM, I’d like to see a little more imaginative interpretation of the clues, while keeping the straightforward approach unchanged.

        I do not use TTOTC in any of my solutions because I cannot know whether some item in that book is really a “hint” or just wishful thinking on my part. Fishing TTOTC for “hints” can easily result in confirmation bias.

        At least that’s how I see it.

        • Ken… I did not always believe the book was important and did not purchase it for quite some time. Over time I came to realize that not utilizing one of the tools that Forrest suggested would be not smart at all. I think everyone that has read it can attest to the fact that there are many things in TTOTC that stand out or screams [hint]. Latching onto any one of those things that kick you in the shins and running with it could just be a bias for sure… I’ve done it like a ton of folks probably have. My approach to that dilemma now is to work the poem for a better understanding and let the so-called hints in the book reveal themselves… or not. This is a tricky business we are in…

        • Ken in Texas, I understand.

          I was just going off of what you posted…”For example, is it not possible that wwwh has nothing to do with temperature? I don’t see much imaginative thinking in this solution.”

          I think the question you asked and approach you’re presenting- looking for a more imaginative interpretation of the clues is still conventional.

          Like I said, I think the eureka moment will come from a hint or hints. That applies to the poem too. That eureka moment could be the result of unconventional or imaginative thinking along with risk taking. Risk taking in following f’s best advice to try and figure out the hints in the book or a possible one in the poem. Not that big of a risk actually.

          No problem just trying to figure out the clues by themselves. I just think the way to figure out the first clue isn’t to toss and turn all the possible combinations of “where warm waters halt” forever and think you’ll come up with a definitive and correct answer.

          I think that first clue hinges on something hidden before it…the hints.

          • One thought to add. Saying the clues are straightforward doesn’t mean that one can find the tc with only the clues.

    • Ken (in Texas),

      You are correct that there are two previous posts that I did, if you had followed what I wrote for Part 3 those were mentioned. Also I deliberately left out certain things in those two previous posts. The Part 3 has more detail, because that is my last post for the area. Also I wanted to share what I was looking at on those previous searches, and in that area I was merely separating the shaft to find the needle. It’s an old metaphor.

      I don’t believe that I said or indicated that temperature has nothing to do with WWWH. Again your entitled to your thoughts.

      You keep plugging a way as well.

    • Ken ~ ‘I totally agree with you that using a map to find places that correspond to each of the nine clues is the best approach to solving the poem.’

      Is that not ‘ overly conventional ‘?
      You automatically refer to *each clue* as place… resulting in; forcing a clue to have a place / location of its own.
      Is that lack of imagination right from the get go?

      • Seeker … my approach (and CharlieM’s approach) is conventional only to the extent that it follows Fenn’s rules.

        Fenn has said: “Go to the first clue, and then the clues are CONSECUTIVE after that”.

        Your observational approach violates consecutive order because when you stand at your magic spot, you see two, three, four, or more clues; they are not consecutive; they randomly appear to your vision; someone else standing there would see those same features but perhaps in a different order.

        I don’t believe your approach follows this Fenn rule. However, I’m sure you will find a way to twist the logic around so that your approach will be believable to your preconceived POV.

        • Ken in Texas;

          I guess that depends on whether you are a searcher trying to solve (follow) the poem, or just a casual visitor to the viewing spot.

          The lines of the poem (Which you have probably memorized) will direct your viewing, and the order in which you view things.

          BIWWWH = The place that you are standing
          ATIITCD = LOOK at the canyon before you
          NFBTFTW = Look a ways down the canyon – Just look, don’t walk
          PIBTHOB = Stop your visual search below the hoB.
          FTINPFTM = You will now see or remember the NPFTM
          TEIEDN = Your eyes are coming back up the canyon
          TBNPUYC = Continue coming back up the canyon – following the creek
          JHL&WH = Now focus on the HL & WH that is before you
          IYBW AFTB = Now focus on the Blaze
          LQDYQTC = Look quickly down below the blaze and you will see something

          etc. Every line of the poem directs a “SEARCHER” so that THEY know what to look for as they view the scenery from where they stand. Yes, a casual hiker might scan the vista in a different way, but a searcher will be directed in a way that will lead the eyes to what is needed, in the order that they are needed – Just how I see it – JDA

        • Ken{TX}

          Consecutive means in an order, Such as 1 2 3 4 or even 2 4 6 8. In an observational method, the order must be the same as presented in the poem. The major difference is; you force nine clues to be different locations.. however.. I can read of 4 clues from the poem [ stanza 2 ] with two clues being instructions / directions and not places / location of travel.

          Your ‘theory’ doesn’t allow that kind of analyzing.
          A searcher can be a clue 1 and “take it in” as a view in the direction of the canyon. What rules are broken? {you can call it “magical” all day long… the term has more than one meaning / definition… unless you think the dictionaries are all wrong?}
          The term “take it in” by definition means; include or encompass something…fully understand or absorb something heard or *seen.*
          The other problem I see with your idea of nine clues must be nine places /different locations lacks any imagination. For example; stanza 3 can be more about a situation, rather than, a stomping of points.

          NPFTM… is interesting for the word “place”
          One definition of place means; cause to be in a particular situation.
          In which case, a situation searchers would find themselves in to finalize the next task of the challenge.

          “Try to simplify the clues” is not the same as simplistic analogy of the information, or maybe a better way of saying it; over simplifying the clues from the get go.

          So, by – ‘twisting the logic around’ – as you claim, Do you mean we shouldn’t use the meanings / definitions / usages of words, fenn “deliberately” used in the poem he created?

          Maybe you can tells us what the exact rule are that you mentioned?

          I mean, the rules I read; “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues.. [ I don’t see mention of nine clues must have places / different locations, attached to them ].. that if followed.. [one definition of follow; act according to (an *instruction* or precept). Understanding.] .. precisely, will lead.. [definition; to go before or with, to *show* the way].. to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

          Your theory doesn’t allow the meanings of words to be thought out.
          In your theory, nine must have different locations; Follow, in this case; is to only mean to walk behind, idea. Lead is only to be led by a leash, idea.

          What “rules” am I missing?

          • re “The term “take it in””

            Take in the sights?

            Take it in stride?

            Take a good museum, for example, either indoor (Smithsonian) or outdoor (Chaco Canyon).

            Either one, you can’t possibly “take it all in” without quite a lot of moving around.

            ‘If you knew the location of each exhibit/ruin it would be a map of the museum.’

            I don’t see the same ambiguity of plural/singular there that you seem to insist on in the actual ff quote.

            Jake

  28. Charlie- excellent work! you found Forrest Fenn’s treasure.
    now what about that chest?
    warm waters halt. the odd man out is the word halt in this phrase. why halt? could it be that the word halt is the key to solving this clue? maybe we should look at halt more closely. if only the word was on a plaque of some sort that we could find to validate this clue. probably in a canyon higher in elevation than the home of brown. possibly, we passed the home of brown to get to where warm waters halt.

    i think.

  29. Charlie–

    Not at all. I don’t think it’s “broken” at all. Like I said, I’m really picky when it comes to the wording. If it wasn’t intentional I fully understand. I appreciate all the effort you put into this. Thanks for sharing.

  30. CharlieM,
    Thank you for a well-written solve.
    Please do not be offended, this is just mho. Your solve seems to lack the Fenn feel.
    This arises from everything I have observed and read about Mr. Fenn and his writings.
    I can say with confidence that Forrest is highly intelligent and has a great command of the English language. And often his words can have several meanings.
    Imho the poem was created so one can draw a mental picture of the search area.
    As I read through the posts I learned something new. Which I suspect will add a new dimension to my solve. For instance, are you aware that an ( As ) is an ancient romantic coin
    of a certain value?

    Just drilling deeper with my imagination.

  31. I believe “straight forward” means “in our line of sight.”
    So don’t blink or you may miss it….
    But what do I know – I’m such a knothead sometimes.

  32. Charlie,

    If you are interested in communicating with me, my email is Figueroaluis2887@gmail.com, you will be very surprise on my solve and I think if we work together we can find this treasure. You are very smart and would love to have someone with your caliber to solve this poem. Let me know by email if you are interested, I will be going to my search area on August and I went to Silverton this June as well.

    • luis,

      What did you think about the avalanches that occurred over the winter? What a change in the landscape.

      Thank you for your offer, your welcome to use my theory, this stands for all of the folks. All I ask is to remember how you got there if you do find the treasure.

        • CharlieM,

          Thank you, and yes I saw how much it change, but I know for certain that the area where the treasure is, was not affected. I will be waiting for your response and not many searcher have let me an impression like you did. Well if one day you decide to partner up, let me know.

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