Where Warm Waters Halt…

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…

dal…

439 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

    • I also thought the same thing until FF responded to the Christ of the Mines Shrine solve saying that he had never heard of Christ of The Mines Shrine in Silverton, Colorado until several months after the chase. Exactly the same time frame as when the solve was presented!!!!

      I would think the special place would have to be a little more intimate to a person

      • I think I know where warm waters halt, but I am stuck with the second clue because there is no canyon near the location of the first clue. But I think this is why one has to have boots on the ground. Still supposedly one can figure out the first two clues before one has to be on location in order to follow the rest of the clues. Which is why I can’t be absolutely certain of my solve of the first clue.

    • Haven’t posted in a while, so thought I would drop a note.

      I used to believe that WWWH was the confluence of the Uncompahgre with the Gunnison because of one of the alternatively accepted translations of “Uncompahgre (heck, I used to think WWWH was a lot of things). Then about 18 months ago I started looking at the bigger picture. I started thinking in the broad sense of “physical” geography. Where does all water halt, or at least collect? IMO, the second stanza tells us what we are looking for as a place to start.

      IMO, the second stanza also tells us the name (and it is not Brown – IMO). It describes “it”, the water, as it flows into the canyon down. It also states that this water/creek/river is long.

      To me, the next stanza describes and confirms this particular body of water.

      The forth stanza switches to past tense, indicating that what you seek will be found as you travel down stream, but before the end (ever nigh).

      I will have BOTG in late August to see if I am correct. Correct or not, I will post my “solve” after the trip. I plan to do some fishing while I am there, so it will be fun either way.

      Just my current line of thinking,
      Scott W.

      • Hi Scott,

        I think “it” refers to a stream as well.

        Although, there are two “its” in the poem. The first “it”… begin it WWWH… probably refers to “the chase”. The second “it”… take it in the canyon down… probably refers to the river/stream.

        Have fun seeking the treasure!

      • I grew up in Delta where the Uncompahgre and Gunnison meet. I have scoured the area with no real leads except for Fort Uncompahgre. Along the Gunnison just outside of Delta is a Dig If you need boats on the ground in the area please let me know?

    • On one of my extensive searches in 2013 I stopped by the Ute Indian Interpretation Center which sits beside the Uncompahgre river In Montrose CO and asked the person at the center what Uncompahgre means. She told me it means “Where warm waters flows.” She was obviously of Indian descent and since she was working at that interpretive center I presume she was of Ute ancestry and therefore believe she knew what she was talking about.

      Note the following In support of the native American Indian’s definition.

      Wikipedia’s article on the Uncompahgre River:
      [Actual quote of the source referenced by References #7]
      “by the Yutas called Ancapagari (which according to the interpreter, means Laguna Colorado) because near its source there is a spring of red water, hot and bad tasting.”

      What’s in a Name: Uncompahgre:
      Ute meanings include “warm flowing water,” “where water makes rock red,” and “red soil” – https://www.5280.com/2014/01/whats-in-a-name-uncompahgre/

      A LADY’S LIFE ON A FARM IN MANITOBA (circa 1882):
      PREFACE.
      These letters were never intended for publication, and were only the details written to our family of an every-day life, and now put in the same shape and composition; not as a literary work, but in hopes that the various experiences we underwent may be useful to future colonists intending to emigrate and farm, either in Manitoba or Colorado.
      OURAY, August 24.
      “Mr. W—— met us at 5 o’clock A.M. at the “Hot Springs,” so called from the boiling water that gushes out of the ground, and which is said to give the name of “Uncompahgre” to the district, that being the Indian word for hot water.” – http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/6732/pg6732-images.html

      FYI: The Uncompahgre River begins flowing crystal clear at Lake Como near the peak of Brown mountain which then flows down the Poughkeepsie Gulch and then into a very deep canyon until it crosses under U.S. Highway 550 to where afterwards there are a couple of beautiful blazing waterfalls. Lake Como is frozen for the good part of the year and usually does not thaw out until late June. In other words the beginnings of the Uncompahgre River is sourced from frozen (halted) water. But… a tributary called Red Mountain Creek flows into the Uncompahgre River down river from those blazing water falls. That creek is heavy laden with a reddish brown color due to the large amount of iron in the creek that flows down from the three (3) Red Mountains which are also heavy laden with iron. At the base of these Red Mountains (in the valley alongside the “Million Dollar Highway” which the Red Mountain Creek flows alongside) is a ghost town called Ironton.

      With all that said I am reminded of what FF says in TTOTC pg 27. “that rusty old iron thing marked the tail of my britches pretty good with a heavy brown color… I was beginning to learn where the edges were…”

      If anyone happens to be hiking in the woods in that area and sees my “NO STOPPING or STANDING NEXT 2 MILES” sign that I strategically planted in the middle of no where for amusement purposes then go ahead and give me a thumbs up.

      ALSO… If this info helps out for finding Indulgence then go ahead and throw me a nugget or two.

      • Very interesting reading. Especially after reading FF’s chapter in his last book, Once Upon A While. There’s a chapter about The Iron Rooster of Sante Fe County. Wow…

    • Aaron–Now that is a very important question..Define IT and you will have a correct starting point..Just one mans opinion..No chest in my possession yet..

    • Aaron,

      Folks have been talking about what IT means and there are quite a few that have been debating this. Question, what if the word IT is not important in solving anything?

      • I wrote this someplace a few years ago and maybe you’ll think it’s worth remembering, Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key. f

        IT’s worth remembering
        IT’s a key

      • I don’t think the word “it” is critically important to a good solve of the poem. If asked nicely what I think “it” means, I’d likely answer “The thrill of the chase” . . . which I kinda think would be a considerably suitable name for the of the poem, if allowed by Mr. Fenn.

        Denver should be looking pretty good in a few weeks. That’s right; I said Denver.

        As always, all part of my opinion.

        • Ha! Denver will certainly put a smile on your face… after a purchase of a nickle bag. Is it still call that? It’s been a while…

          But if IT is of no importance why put IT in?
          The line would easily read perfectly;
          Begin where warm waters halt.
          But IT gives pause for thought to why it’s even there.
          As you said, Andrew, IT has some meaning to you, as some possibility for it {IT}

          IT; used in the normal subject or object position when a more specific subject or object is given later in the sentence.
          IT; used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified.

          IT; used to emphasize a following part of a sentence.

          I kinda like the last usage. IT in the first part of the sentence may refer to IT in part of the sentence; “Take it in” which can be of a physical or visual usage.
          This would create the idea of “begin IT to be visual or “Begin Observing where WWsH and view in the canyon [in some direction of down] and kinda relates to the first definition as well.

          IT can also refer to something already mentioned [ as in the second definition ]. Or meaning; something from stanza 1.

          IDK… it seems a word that doesn’t really need to be in the sentence, is there, and not important.
          Especially if, “take IT in” is only a physical movement towards a direction of down.

          The point is; just dismissing it {IT} as not critically important to a solve.. leaves only one option.. “take IT in” would be of a movement only, idea.
          But yet, fenn put it {IT} after “begin” as well. Ya gotta ask, why did he do it…? or should that it be ~ that? … why did he do that?

          Yep, that [that] sounds better.

          • I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified.” and then “Or meaning; something from stanza 1”.

            It is a pronoun that is referring to something previously mentioned or possibly in this case determined from the “I” riddle in stanza one. Answer the I riddle to determine what IT is referring to.

          • Often when I read the poem I get the feeling like “it” is the chest itself and he’s giving directions from the hiding spot back to your vehicle. Like the poem in reverse.

      • The only thing that I can say about “IT” is it is no longer with you when you leave the canyon,
        Or the second stanza could be interrupted to say
        “IT” is buried in the canyon.
        That’s all I got to say about “IT”
        All the above is only My Opinion

        Best Regards to all in the chase
        Kanafire

  1. The first time I heard the words “where warm waters halt” was in 1991… on a camping/fishing trip with my wife and her father.

    The second time I heard the words “where warm waters halt” was in 2014… when I happened upon an interview with a crazy old man that had hidden a treasure chest somewhere north of Santa Fe.

    Did I mention that my wife (and her father) are from Santa Fe…? Could this WWWH phrase be a regional colloquialism…?

      • Thanks meBigGuy,

        Shortly after my post, I saw other posts that talked about warm/cold water descriptions by NM Fish and Game. It certainly seems plausible.

        When my father-in-law delivered the phrase WWWH, we were visiting a hot spring that was flowing into a river… I always assumed that WWWH was associated with a hot spring… now I wonder whether it was in reference to fishing the stream and it’s fishing boundaries. Alas, my father-in-law has since passed and there is no way to ask him directly.

  2. I would start trying to decode
    Begin into I…..
    If you notice the first 4 lines are ( I N I). Into I

    Where warm…. here in W W w are M, M,W….
    So you change the w’s to M’s,,,, and the M’s to W’s…
    Waters= w at E are S……
    Go in the 4 lines and see if a w is next to an E… there is. Change that w to s, it will say sand.
    Waters halt. Or this.
    W,a,t,e are S, H, A, L…, play with it…..
    See S halt?
    Look at the poems first letters!
    See
    As I have gone alone in there…….
    It has s I have
    Its telling you to erase the I and match it to S ha. With no I…..
    You have to stop reading the poem. Read the words.
    Begin into I…. T W here, find the T w here! You see?
    Once you get used to it it will get easier.
    Or do what Forrest said!
    You should be doing NOTHING WITH GUESSING if your serious about the poem. NOTHING!..
    USE WHAT I SHOWED YOU, NOW START IN THE BOOK AND LOOK FOR THE HINTS.
    UNLESS YOU HAVE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SEARCH EVERY WWWH FOR 10 YRS. He is 500 steps ahead.
    All National forest names are mixed in together from every state! Purposefully
    Another view:
    The end is ever drawing nigh=
    The end I is severed are a wing n eye!
    Drawing nigh= win in the dragons eye
    I could go on all day! Im getting close to completion, i should have already found this thing.
    Its multi layered in every direction, basically anyone from any of the states can go searching with the poem and it would add up, this is THE THRILL OF THE CHASE AND ITS PURPOSE.
    But there is only 1 way to see the (back door) , thats the tricky part. Just my thoughts!

    • (back door)
      Seems like a “short cut”

      “USE WHAT I SHOWED YOU”
      Why don’t you use it and go get the treasure. lol

    • “Oh for joy!! For joy!!! (clapping loudly). It is wonderful to see another searcher so bloody sure of themselves!! This one goes as far as to call themselves “I am the one”. That is marvelous…simply marvelous! I shant post too much more except to say “by George I think he’s got it!!” Do be a good lad and send me photos once you have found it won’t you? (sips from a tea cup). Cheers!!”

      —-Queen Elizabeth

    • Wait! …What?

      INI – into where?
      Change what to what?
      Erase a what, where?
      See what S is for, for what reason{S}?
      Flip something upside down, and make a W into an S… or is IT… into a T?
      Wings have eyes?
      How did the dragon get something in his eye?

      Um, …Why is there a dragon? .. err…
      IS there an alien egg involved somewhere in there?

    • I – 1.
      No disrespect since everyone has there own thoughts how to solve the poem. But a déjà vu for me on this one. I almost fell off my chair. Many have done similar try’s as you are doing. If you have more then 10 lifetimes and stay on your course you may find it that way I don’t know. Your over cooking the poem. He warned us of that.
      But in the interest of your approach there are others out there on your track and I’m sure you could get some help there. I for one am not seeing it.
      Poems rhyme. Try that first
      In fact if I had permission. I would send you half the poem rewritten just as you are trying to do. And guess what it doesn’t tell you anything. In fact you will start to decipher what you deciphered Your own poem Rethink.
      All in my hardheaded opinion.
      GH

    • I’m usually the one encouraging posters who play with the words of the poem, since that’s the general approach I take. But while reading your post I got dizzy, so I’ll wish you luck in your endeavors and leave it at that.

      There are many ways to play with the words. If after all your rearrangements the pieces you found fit neatly and easily together I might think you have something. If they’re a random hodgepodge that takes effort to form into a coherent set of directions I think you’re on the wrong track.

  3. Lets look at where warm waters halt with a clue that was given 08/12/2016 by ff himself: “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short-cuts.”

    So what do you think this means? and what is in the Rocky Mountains south of Santa Fe that is also found north and it has to be a geological location? My guess is WWWH has to be a ……..mountain pass, lake, mountain, or maybe cell phone service? FF 08/11/2016 said: “There are many places in the mountains where cell-phone service is not available.” This would imply in the RM both north and south and a geological point on a map.

    Think the “what if” and let me know your crazy ideas?

    Together we can find this

    BDM

    • Mr. Fenn told us that there are hints in TTOTC book , to help unlock the clues in the poem. So I would think the answer to your question, must some how be hinted at if not directly reviled in TTOTC book.In TTOTC book he talks quite a bit about having cancer, death in general, and cemeteries. I would lean toward cemeteries, with snow capped peaks coming in second.

    • New Way,

      I take “warm waters” as literal… waters most likely warmed by hot springs. There are a lot of hot springs north of Santa Fe. If you were to investigate every hot spring north of Santa Fe, you’d be looking for 10 years and still not find it. That’s why he says look at the big picture. Eliminate those hot springs that you can not attach to a canyon down, a home of Brown, a creek up…

      • there are only 293 official (named) hot springs in that region. Many searchers have done what you say. The tough part (for me) is hoB. The joe brown put in on the yellowstone river is the most obvious.

        • Yes. I think hoB is the clue that seems to be most elusive. Has FF said whether or not someone has successfully identified hoB. I have a hoB that I don’t think anyone else has come up with. My hoB is a pueblo/mission. Brown Franciscan…

        • ah, but it’s even worse. When you include other name variations: “warm/hot/boiling/etc.” and “springs/creek/river/etc.” This gets well over 1,000. Then you add in place names and roads, etc. Not really feasible in any case.

  4. From an abstract perspective, which I believe is most appropriate here, I’ve only managed to come up with a few possible solutions; each of which is more or less likely in their own right.

    1. For a time, I’ve considered ‘warm’ waters to halt in the absence of a source of warmth like sunlight. If this interpretation is correct and the poem presupposes the existence of a specific canyon I’ve looked at options like the Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Black Canyon of Yellowstone, shadow canyon, etc. This particular interpretation stemmed, in part, from FF comments regarding asking a child; I think most children have a sense of warmth/cold outdoors waters relating to sunlight, daytime, etc.

    2. Forrest’s memoir is nothing if not a work focusing on the existentialism of our respective position in this world and the impact we have on those around us. In keeping with this theme -death, mortality, etc. – I think it’s possible to interpret WWWH broadly, within the context of the end of life. To that end, there are a number of canyons with names like Graveyard, Death, Cemetary, etc. It’s also possible that this interpretation points to something more historical like a monument, famous battle location, etc. Now obviously FF has indicated the treasure is not located in a cemetary or graveyard but I don’t believe that excludes this interpretations validity with regards to specific clues. In fact, FF references graveyards no less than four times in TTOTC and the book, as previously mentioned, has a heavy focus on all things mortality.

    3. TTOTC also references steam engines and an antiquated defintion of “halt” pertains to locations at which old steam locomotives would stop along their journey.

    4. Endorheic basins, proglacial lakes, petrified trees, and other geograohical phenomena may be worth considering but are dangerously close, if not in direct violation, of the specialized knowledge comment.

    Thus far, I’ve considered and discarded multiple solves referencing WWWH specific to tributaries, hot springs, bodies of water with names that can be interpreted within that context, etc. I think the specificty of the poem and subsequent comments from FF indicate that the solve for this particular clue is not related to a guess hazarded around the relative temperature of this or that stream.

    I could go on and on at length but these are just my current thoughts. I don’t feel to strongly about any of these ideas and I’m happy to receive feedback. Excuse the typos; at work.

  5. Sinks canyon, Ice box canyon, Otto’s bathtub, come to mind when I think of wwwh as literal names. Thermal waters come to mind as well, Boiling river, Firehole river. I think for halt to ring true, they (plural – waters) must change names.
    Which makes them come to an abrupt stop.

    • I have no evidence that bodies of water with names related to warmth are incompatible with the poems solution, however:

      1. I believe that in order to avoid a “specialized knowledge” fallacy many solutions along these lines must be discarded.

      2. These solutions are not “tricky” and require little interpretative effort or thought.

      3. I haven’t noted hints, subtle or otherwise, within TTOTC that lead me to believe these solutions have potential.

      Just some initial thoughts.

    • Tony, I’m a bit surprised that you claim that changing names makes waters come
      to an abrupt stop. The waters probably aren’t aware of what cartographers do.
      All part of my opinion, before I drive toward Main St.

  6. dal on July 16, 2019 at 10:01 am said:

    NWOT-
    You may be one of the few to consider the trail down to 7 Mile Hole in the Yellowstone Canyon a likely place for indulgence. That’s an 11 mile round trip with an elevation gain of 1,400 feet. Seems like a lot for an 80 year old guy to accomplish twice in one afternoon carrying a 22lb pack…Good news is that he only would have to carry the goodies down slope…
    But why do you say it’s “the spot”?
    How do you “put in” at a hole and what’s the “Brown”..? just curious..

    Answer::::::::::

    “It is like asking me how deep is a hole.”

    Not too far for an 80 year old man if you only go 166 steps and/or 200 feet!!!!

    • NWOT – Reposting this here from my post on the closed WWWH thread:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2019/05/17/where-warm-waters-halt-16/#comment-783989

      That would be “Waters” in the classic 1938 fly fishing book by Back. Which I finished reading yesterday. He considered those 10 miles from just above Barns Hole #1 to Hebgen Lake to be his favorite fly fishing destination. He mentioned that a “fish-hog” would park inside the YNP West Entrance gate to make sure he was first at the prime fishing spot on the Madison at Nine Mile Hole. Didn’t Forrest’s Dad do that? And he pointed out that the many “streams” that meet the Madison, between the Barns Holes and Baker’S Hole, create a great place, just downstream from the inflowing cold ‘creek’ water, for the biggest trout to ‘lie’. And then there was the use of “married” in Back’s reference to the warm water “parents” of the Madison River: the Gibbon and the Firehole.

      The entire book was structured very much like Craig Mathews’ excerpt I posted from his book about the Madison River; a play by play ‘map’ to get to all the best ‘holes’ for excellent fly fishing. Someone gifted Back’s book to Craig twenty years before he wrote his introduction to the new 2000 edition of Back’s classic. I would be surprised if both Marvin and Forrest Fenn did not use this book for reference. Maybe Forrest will see this post and respond? Craig’s copy is pretty dog-eared. And first editions are almost impossible to find.

      Accessibility from roads was highlighted. Especially from my WWWH at Madison Junction to the Barns Holes. Back also covered the on the Firehole from Midway Geyser Basin to Madison Junction and on the Gibbon from Norris Geyser Basin to Madison Junction. But that section from the Barns Holes to Baker’S Hole, with the solitude he found there, still was Back’s favorite. And Forrest’s, IMO. At least after I read the preface of TFTW. Still thinking about his “lonesome shadow”.

  7. The first time I heard the phrase “where warm waters halt” was in 1991 while on a camping/fishing trip with my father-in-law. He used the phrase to describe the area we had traveled that day. The area was in the Jemez Mountains… an area he enjoyed fishing. Like many other residents of Santa Fe, he enjoyed the Jemez for it’s close proximity to Santa Fe but also it’s trove of natural/historic treasures.

    The second time I heard the phrase “where warm waters halt” was 25 years later in 2014 while watching an interview with Forrest Fenn. Needless to say, the phrase startled a deeply hidden memory from 25 years prior.

    Is it possible/probable that “where warm waters halt” may be a regional colloquialism…?

    • I’ll answer it the second time also (once for each time you heard it :P)

      fish and game in NM define warm waters and cold waters, so yes to your question.

  8. Sorry New way of thinking. I was trying to respond to Doug’s post up thread, but it didn’t go to the right place.

  9. Begin it.
    OK, we got that this is the 1st clue where to start the chase, so we probably don’t have to red into this any more seeing the face value was proved.

    Where = A place, spot, location on a map and probably Google earth.
    Warm = Comfortable, either physically (temperature) or emotionally.
    Waters = Body of water, multiple tributaries of water flowing.
    Halt = Stop, discontinue, cease.

    At face value using simple definitions, it appears to me you have to consider all 4 words describing a place, spot or location that is in water. I would not recommend ignoring any of these words and they should all be equally important.

    1st clue breakdown 101

    • Let’s face it, face is a word that is popular . . . unlike my opinion, of which this
      entire message comprises a part.

      • JDA – in my opinion, the words could have been “field of Brown”, ” door of Brown”, “hut of Brown”, etc. You can still get the same answer. However, “home of Brown” is much more intuitive since it implies you are looking for a place. But it doesn’t really matter.

        Scott W.

        • Messing with the poem won’t help anyone solve it.

          Thank you for using a capital B each time you said Brown.

          All in my opinion.

  10. The only place I have seen which specifically uses “Warm Waters” as a defined place(s) is in the NM Fishing Rules and Info booklet. There are many places where the “Warm waters”, as defined by the booklet, “halt” and then begin again later downstream in a canyon. These would be “Special Trout Waters”. That being said, there are few which are north of Sante Fe and where a 79/80 year old man could go carrying two heavy loads.
    FF was an avid trout fisherman and most likely used the NM term “Warm waters” and is familiar with this term and its definition according to NM Fishing Rules and Info.
    So our solve is in NM north of Sante Fe.
    As always, IMO.

    • Possible TS, but not only is this specialized knowledge but how can we know that these regulations will be around for a thousand years or even a few decades?

      • Hey-O Tarheel –

        Even if *Warm Waters* does refer to fishing waters, there’s no need to confine it to New Mexico – it’s understood by fly fishers all over the four search states.

        Here’s a description of the Yampa River in northern Colorado (source – Colorado Fishing Network)

        “Yampa River (CO) – Starting in the mountains, this river traverses mostly high, dry rangeland and canyons. The flyfishing varies as much as the terrain. The Upper Yampa holds *cold-water* species whereas *warm-water* species are found downstream at river’s end. Somewhere in-between, the two meet with opportunity to fish for trout and pike in the same river spot.”
        Source – Colorado Fishing Network

        (It’s worth noting that the Yampa “river’s end” is where it flows into the Green River, which is cold ‘trout’ water released from Flaming Gorge over-and-up on the Utah/Wyoming border. So the Yampa “warm-water” stops at its confluence with the Green.)

        Jake

        • Jake,
          My original post was for “waters” (plural). No “waters” in CO Fishing Network.
          I believe FF put Warm waters (plural) as a specific indicator….not a broad descriptor.
          As always…IMO
          Good luck and stay safe.

    • Tarheel, in general terms I can assure you every fisherman (including ff) and my self and thousands in NM, knew this term WWWH not specialized knowledge and if you did not abide by the WWWH, you got a hefty fine and your tackle was confiscated by NM Game and Fish, However this term ends at the Colorado Border, no where else is it said exactly like that. As state above, Colorado does mean RED, as in Warm…any more questions would be minor distinctions in the Big Picture IMO.

      So even if WWWH was not the exact place in a canyon on a river, the border would settle the dispute again IMO.

      TT

      • montana also has (recently) a warm waters license. Pretty common terms. Many lakes are home to warm water species. That is pretty general knowledge.

          • To all responders above,
            I’m saying that the only place I have found which references a specific “Warm waters” (plural waters) in writing is the NM booklet. I know that many people refer to warm waters, myself included, but I have not seen a specific reference in writing as “warm waters” except as noted above.
            I have read the Wy, Mt and Co fishing regs but did not see a detailed reference to “Warm waters” (plural) in those. I may have missed it…anything is possible.
            As always, IMO.

          • Tarheel;

            An alignment of your thought, I can see how “N. of SF.” to be a hint to NM [for clues]
            I can see “in the mountains” as a piece of information to be used as mountains in NM.
            I can see the poem use of “end” as a border or state line, idea.
            I can see “New and Old” as a possible reference to territories of Old Mexico, idea to New Mexico, line of thinking. Which could change the idea of where your WWsH changes, or give credence to the idea of present day borders.

            We also have the book given to a single book store ‘in NM.’ That alone raises question to why only a single store, who agreed that 10% goes to cancer research, and not to a larger chain store, to push those donations to a higher level. [at that time]

            But for the life of me… I have a hard time to think fenn is following any ‘rules n regulations’ that is government issued… and not really available to many states or other countries.

            It kinda say… this was only meant for NM residence, and anglers [ in-particular] in the state… would have a great advantage just because of a fishing license purchase w/ a fishing manual and guide lines, ‘requirement’

            I mean, who had a home computer, an idiot phone, the internet, in 1988 or some later years to find this information-?- without actually going to NM and getting an out of state permit to fish.
            It’s a big stretch for me… that’s all I’m saying. I like how it looks like it can work.. but still a big stretch.

            Do you know when the wording was placed in the fishing information for NM? Just out of curiosity…

          • Seeker, for some folks the thrill of the chase is associated
            with a big stretch. As always, IMO.

  11. My dear Watson it seems that there are multitudes that are still going in circles in the Rockies. Having completed “WWWH 101” at Jaketown University I am ready to disclose a probability that is not a mere flip of a coin. I recall Prof. Moriarty , prior to his debauchery, one day on Baker Street while attending to his green tea discussing rumors from America of an ancient hot springs called Ojo Caliente. Now Watson, please take notes to leave for my house lady so she can forward any correspondence direct to me while I am in the North American continental confines. There is a small river called a Spanish name, Rio Ojo Caliente, write that down. It appears to flow towards another river, a much COLDER river, another Spanish name, The Chama. There at The Chama the warm waters of the Rio Caliente halt and cease to exist and this my dear Watson is where I shall “Begin It “. Yes, write this in your notes, below EL Vado….the home of Brown. Watson, above all make sure my correspondence is sent to the Collective Bookstore , Santa Fe, south from where I will be in hot pursuit. Very well my good chap.I bid you ado and I shant tarry long.

    • I’ve never used a dictionary in England, but I have used many in the United States. I know what “halt” means. That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it. All IMO,
      of course. Y’all’s wileage may continue to vary, I’d guess.

    • Holmes,
      Have you taken a swim in this Spanish named rio called Rio Ojo Caliente?
      Are you assuming that it is warm because it’s name or do you have actual 1st hand evidence that it is a comfortable temperature?

      It appears this river is formed by 2 other rivers converging as some here think that qualifies as WWWH.

      I think the qualification is for it to be warm year round and not just in summer when some rivers warm up a bit.
      I suggest you head north where the waters are warm year round but halt a short distance away. Keep flipping that double sided coin.

    • EL VADO. A place in the upper reaches of Coyote Canyon in the Santa Rosa Mountains (San Jacinto Range) was given this descriptive Spanish name meaning “the ford” by Juan Bautista de Anza on December 20, 1775. He wrote in his diary, “we halted … where plentiful running water as well as some pasturage was found. On arriving at this place, which we called El Vado

  12. Where warm water halts… in my opinion I believe it means glaciers or turn to ice… so I started at glacier county Montana

  13. My current favorite for WWWH is the continental divide. We tend to think in terms of gravity, but the clue includes no such rules.

      • Hey Scott, How ya been?

        I really like that question. I think this is a mental block readers of the poem put in their minds when they only think of 9 clues.
        The first thing we are told to do is decipher the first clue, right? Ok Lets say the correct deciphering is CD. But like you said, where on it?
        My question is; why do we need to know where right at that moment? Can’t we decipher [lets say] hoB and what if refers to and that helps with the where part for clue one?
        Can HLnWH deciphering do that?

        On the example in an old theory of mine work that way; WWsH- the CD. Canyon down is a direction from WWsH but unknown to where at this moment.
        NF,BTFTW revolved around time, but that was known of either at that moment. HoB was considered Canada for the Title of it symbol the brown beaver [not unlike our symbol the Bald Eagle]

        OK if we juts stop there. Does this give a location for WWsH on the CD? Does it give a possible Canyon in that location? Does understand the possible hoB give the idea that NPFTM can be the USA side of the RM’s [ home of the brave ] a clue deciphering from stanza 3?

        The point is… why do we think we need to just figure out what, where, why of WWsH just from that 6 words in that line in stanza 2?
        To me… That approach, or thought process is only guessing what WWsH is and where.
        fenn said we need to learn where WWsH is and all the information to find the chest is in the poem, and tells us to adjust… to get back in the box… how in the world can any clue be completely deciphered on it’s own with just 6 words out 166 words to work with?

        This, IMO, is why folks can still be stuck on the first two clues… there seems to be a mental block that deciphering has to be the same as ‘follow the clues in order’… like we are not supposed to try and figure out anything else in the poem that could help understand the first clue fully. or any other clue.

        I’ll use JDA as an example of a type of mental block I think may be happening [ I hope he doesn’t mind ]
        He uses “in the Wood” as a connection to help WWsH. The idea is good because he is thinking of other info in the poem to help with an answer to the first clue. But, his concentration is only on the first clue. Maybe Brave and in the wood helps another clue or maybe HLnWH helps WWsH.

        Nothing is taken out of order within the poem… just our thinking we have to solve the first clue before solving any other clue. This is where all the hours of “oustside” research come into play… as if the answers to any clue [first clue mostly] ‘outside’ the poem.
        The same can be said for the first stanza… that is can only help with the first clue because it is prior to that clue, but stanza 5 or 6 might not juts because it seem to be past the ‘clue section’ of the poem.

        Maybe to answer ‘where’ warm waters halt’s deciphered answer is [ its reference – in this case the CD ] we need another clue deciphered for its reference to do just that.
        Clues are Contiguous comes to mind.

        For this reason above… is why I dislike the idea that “all clues must be different location” from each other.
        That mindset stifles any other thought process, or the WhatIF’s fenn may refer to; in the dart tossing SB.

        • Seeker,

          Good to hear from you again. I think you and I have been on pretty much (more or less) the same page for years. Something you said maybe three years ago got me into thinking about things differently, and I started looking at the clues as descriptors of a place rather than a “path” to a place.

          I liken it to a zoom lens on a camera. When I point the camera at the subject with the zoom all the way out, it has the target in the frame but I can’t quite make it out. As I zoom in further, I can start to see more detail. As I zoom all the way in, the subject is clearly defined. The camera was pointing at the subject the entire time.

          It goes back to the “big picture” view. Each clue is a step up in zoom. Kind of a nerdy way to say it, but that is the best analogy I could come up with at the moment.

          BTW, I don’t believe WWWH is the CDT. However, a point on the CDT does come into “view” as I zoom in .

          All just my opinion, of course.

          Scott W.

          • I like the analogy a lot, Scott.
            It puts in perspective the idea of descriptors [as you said] vs. just a place on a map as, too simplistic to start with.
            Kinda like; It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.

            Has far as the CDT [I don’t like the T-trail. It not so much about the “trail” as much as what is happening on this area, line of thinking, long before it was give the idea {titled as a trail} for hiking as a recreation.]

            But like you explain with your analogy… we need to be zooming in to a specific place. The question is; what does this?
            I think * later clues * [ and other info ] in the poem can direct a “thought” to bring WWsH in to clarity.

            I’m thinking of the idea as the big picture to be; contiguous; the clue’s connections to each other… how they work with each other.
            We might be able to see the physical clues as separte, but we need to zoom in to see them all in the same frame, to see how they fit with one another, Idea.

            Basically saying; they are pieces of a whole… synergy; the whole is greater than all its part. But, we need all those part. [ descriptors ]
            Feel free to yack off blog if ya like… good to see you pop in now and then.

            Really!.. three years ago?
            I can’t remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

        • I believe that the clue” WWWH “can be deciphered on its own. It calls for thinking like the “ lifelong vagabonds” who came up with their solution of “ begin it where the Sweetwater river flows through the Devils Gate”
          The Sweetwater is running through a canyon at this point.
          The correct solution will call for “ thinking and analyzing”.
          The poem wasn’t designed to be easy, Forrest wanted us out in the Wood BOTG.
          All of the above is IMO
          Kanafire

  14. I am stuck on the warm waters halting. The first simple thing I came across was the story on EC Waters and the E.C S.S. Waters ship. Mr. Waters entrepreneurship ended in Yellowstone lake, they eventually torched the ship, making it warm haha. So the S.S. Waters and Mr. Waters business was stopped at the lake.

    • Monica – I would put this information into the “Specialized Knowledge”. I could be wrong, but I think that the WWWsH is something that is much more generally known by the average searcher – JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        Is knowing the distance from Earth to the Sun specialized knowledge? or the speed of light?
        Do you or most folks know that info off the top of your head?
        Is knowing a little history of a place, millions visit each year, specialized knowledge if I personally never visit the place?

        I think specialized refer to “advance knowledge” in any subject; such as advance mathematics to determine those above distances.
        But is the idea of simply refreshing what we should have known of or simply forgot or never knew of… specialized in anyway?

        ~ “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

        “And I have no expectations.”
        Could it be fenn means he can’t predict what anyone knows or not, and the book could point to what we may need to “learn”

        How many here didn’t truly know the difference between Clovis and Folsom before reading the book and/or about the chase? Does that new knowledge become ‘specialized knowledge’ and shouldn’t be usable?

        • Seeker;

          It seems as though I would have to answer “NO” to almost every question you posed. Maybe knowing about E.C.S.S.
          Waters ship is not as specialized as I thought. See, we learn something every day. That is one thing I learned. Will it get me any closer to finding Indulgence – Who knows? It might help, or it might just open it up to even more questions – JDA

          • I file the comment under useless clues, idea, myself.
            I my mind it simply says; use the book… if there’s something in it you don’t know about.. ya can google it.
            Whether that is a waste of time or not, is to be determined.

      • “No time spent in thought is wasted and nothing is too small to know, so one should not let knowing a little bit be a substitute for learning more.”

        I think Zap posted this a few days ago…and I’ve posted this before, along with others in the past. Fenn tells us we need to *learn* wwwh… or the game is over before it starts. Fenn has gifted us with tons of stories packed with tidbits that I’m sure a lot of folks would never have known or read about if not offered by him at the time. I think his [specialized knowledge] comment was a generalized idea to keep things fairly basic. Sure ken… why haven’t you paid attention to that !

    • Here are some ideas anyone can look into, Warm Springs Montana has several ponds that stop bad water from the copper mine’s and killing the trout in the Clark fork river……. Their is the Gallatin river in Montana after leaving the canyon it forks out into several small stream in the flat lands at Gallatin Gateway by Boseman, it’s said that the waters warm rapidly and it’s not very good fishing for trout …. Also in New Mexico going toward Hermit’s Peak from Las Vegas N.M. not Nevada, at the beginning of that canyon are some hot spring tubs , I know we are looking for warm, well one of the tubs read; Not so hot of a hot springs, I would call that warm. One more, find the exact place Fenn soaked because all boy like to pee in the water, I know I have six boy’s , the little punks. LOL

  15. If “several” have figured out the first few clues. Seems unlikely that wwwh is anything other than Madison junction.

    • Well its possible there are several. West Yellowstone or Madison junction both work for me. WWWH summer waters. maybe just call it West Yellowstone. I guess for now only FF knows. I am leaving being wrong
      open for myself.

  16. ok been doing some reading, how about Chama River its almost an hr drive from fenns house and the river runs red or El RITO pink or red mountains.

      • Did you mean where WARM waters halt?
        I think your question leaves out a very important qualifier.
        Don’t assume those waters are warm unless you took a swim there.

  17. Seeker,
    Response to the NM fishing regs comment.
    Fair point.
    I’m still going with the SWT (Special Trout Waters) and Warm waters angle in NM.
    Good luck and stay safe.

    • Tarheel,

      It might be a fair point… But it always been a curiosity to me that fenn may have not known /guess how extended the chase would reach in a short time of…what 2 years-?- in.

      That could give some more credence to the thought of why NM could be where the chest lays in wait. And the other things I mentioned in the above post.
      In which case… IF fenn was thinking about the poem as rivers, creeks, waters, which at first glance it seem to be…
      Hey, an angler and his stories of fishing with dad, being a fishing guide at 13, tells us he stuck at age 13, his lures made by hand… etc.
      I have a hard time arguing against NM fishing Guide as part of the “learning” what/where WWsH is about… with all the other things we know of.. from the book.
      However;
      Like I said before… my concern is fenn using government issued information [ even, state government ] as the learning tool to get that information.

      LOL but then again, NM [ SF ] is the only place the book was/is sold, right? And no mountains of any other city or state were mentioned to be north of: except, SF. Where the author lives.

      There’s a lot to say about NM being the top contender… it does limit the area to be 8.25 miles north or the northern point of SF and possibly below CO.
      I don’t know the sq. miles of this area within the RM’s there… lol… but that is shoe-box sizes compared to the whole range… even with Canada ~ poof.

      It does make some sense WWsH stops at the border, idea.
      Only if analyzing everything… the comment, there are many WWsH in the RM’s and nearly all are N of SF. is still a thorn in my side. For “nearly all” to be “IN” NM… The idea of the “RM’s” really doesn’t pan out to say ‘only’ NM, idea.

      I guess I’d need something in the poem [ other than the idea of END to mean border or state line ] to boost that confidence level for WWsH being; nailed down.

      • Seeker,
        Good point, again.
        Your comment of FF not thinking the chase would go on so long is one of my thoughts as well.

        The picture on page 145 and 146 in the TTOTC has a man (FF?) looking up at a nest/bird with a dark sky or wall background? Also the man has waders on and the trees have been cut down. I believe the cut down trees are a hint at an actual place which was relevant at the time the book was written, but may not be relevant to a searcher looking now because of the forest growth over the last decade. So I think you are right by saying that FF did not think the chase would go on so long and “some” hints were meant for the time the book was written.
        Through my research, over most of the last 10 years, I recently came across info which stated an area had been cut as a fire break. This was done next to my final solve….refined with numerous BOTG’s and years of research. This area was cut within approximately 1 1/2 years of the book coming out.
        Regardless of “my” solve, I think the picture is relevant as a hint and relates to an area logged before the story was written and book was released.
        This may help others…or not.
        Good luck and stay safe.

        • Hi Tarheel Searcher;

          Instead of a forest that might have been clear-cut – Maybe the picture is just indicating that it is an area that has no visual obstructions – an open vista. Just an idea – JDA

          • I agree Mr. JDA – some place, somewhere out there where we can see the stars. Alot of bluffs going on around the blogs right now – sure would help to have a clear view. You think anyone is ever gonna get this pinned down, find that magic spot, and be able to yell “Eureka?”

        • Hi Tar, I never saw Chase hints in this picture. To me it is about another treasure. FF’s mother is waiting in the moon, father to join her soon, his life’s labors done. The waders are a personal note between them, a joke perhaps, about the work and joys they shared in Montana summers. FF is telling a story about the love between his mother and father. Its appropriate to the chapter.
          IMO

        • Tarheel,

          Just for clarification… my post wasn’t about the longevity of the clues / chase… but more to the idea of how quick folks pickup on the challenge.

          Going from [ a few 100 to start and climbing to thousands in a short time… 2 years ish.

          Also; I recall a ATF where fenn look at GE of his place and stated it it looks the same. I can’t remember the exact wording to look it up.. or it could have been a video. But I recall it was something like that.

          • If it indicates an open treeless area and possibly buried.
            I had thought about having to follow maybe 3 or 4 small
            white slabs somewhere and flipping them over and
            probe 4 to 5 inches deep under them. A 22 R t-handle
            cleaning rod first section in your back pack would come in handy. Like the picture where he points his foot
            at one of those slabs at you know where. It would be
            marked some how. Best guess flip over smaller slab
            one that’s easy to flip over. Or track them in a direction
            towards the chest.
            Prepare for anything I guess.
            Look those rocks way over there look like three Baby Ruth. just example not that it would be the case.
            I guess I will read the books again and keep looking
            for what I am missing to find it in one trip.
            Well Stay Safe in them there mountains.

  18. My dear Watson, upon arriving at Paddington Station prior to my overland to the freighter, someone left a downloaded and printed copy of The Catalog Of Thermal Waters In New Mexico by The New Mexico Bureau Of Mines & Mineral Resoures. It was left in my berth with narry a note but has proved to be most enlightening as to my inquiry of the temperatures of the water courses without having to even get my big toe wet.

    Oh…..how marvelous Watson….simply marvelous.

    • So Holmes, Are the berthing waters as such for a new born?
      I would not trust any catalog documents (especially government docs) to prove your hypothesis.
      I suggest you dive in head 1st otherwise you are relying on possible lying or anothers POT point of temperature. Trust in others accounts lead to failure.
      I implore you to find out for yourself. Find, hold and fire the smoking gun otherwise it’s just a paperweight.

    • How can you know that you received a catalog in your ship’s berth upon arriving in London a hundred 19th-century horsey-miles from your train?

  19. Okay hear me all and listen good……….This was brought to my attention today and want to know if anyone else has looked into this WWWH: The River of No Return

  20. The River of No Return. Think about it……WWWH could be where danger starts, “finding where the edges are” I believe is the clue in TTOTC, so No Return sound like where like where warm waters halt to me. The River of No Return runs a short distance along the Idaho/Montana border and heads for the Columbia River.

    BDM

    • At this point since no one has found the indulgence yet it’s as good a guess as any. Get some BOTG and enjoy a great hike! I’ll leave that area to you. I have my own WWWH that needs exploring in September.

    • I’m at a loss New Way of Thinking,
      I can’t find this river: The River of No Return on Google Maps or earth.
      The Moyie River is near the border and runs through “Good Grief” Idaho.
      Help!

      • Formal Name is the Salmon River. Look up “Salmon, Idaho.” Headwaters are in Montana and the original home to the Shoshone Indians

        • Actually The River of No Return in the “Middle Fork of the Salmon River” Maybe FF wants to be in the middle again?????

        • I’m still at a loss after research NWoT.
          I do think old ways back in 2011 or 2012 got searchers within 200′ not in Idaho.
          keep at it though.

  21. Where warm waters halt.
    Let’s see it is above 5000ft and below? ( don’t recall sry )
    5000ft being the base altitude of most of the Rockies.
    So imho wwwh lies where the snow line stops. Any mountains with snow in the warmer seasons?

    In my mind’s eye, I see a route to this area.
    Perhaps a road?? Whoa, what? Ummm water flows, lava flows Traffic flows.
    I must be thinking too hard, I smell wood burning lol.

    HDD

    • hmmm…..sounds like someone knows more then they’re letting on. I wonder if that road does not allow motorized vehicles. Best park at the church, and head to the “no trespassing gate” and on, to the burning, (or burnt) wood. To around 8008′.lol,,,…

  22. What about “Father on the Banco/” Banco is also the definition to the first poem in TTOTC. Most interesting is the definition in Websters Dictionary ” channel of a river cut off and left dry by the shifting of its course” NOW that sounds like WWWH.

    What do you think?

  23. I think people should try thinking broadly about what “warm waters” might be, might represent,
    or might be represented by. Forrest, do you agree?

  24. In my opinion the two main reasons why longtime searchers have not found the correct WWWH is: (1) their lack of knowledge of Rocky Mt. geography, and (2) their lack of imagination.

    Lack of imagination is not a mortal sin. But unwillingness to learn geography reeks of mental laziness; it also reeks of a smug presumption that Fenn’s words about geographic knowledge is irrelevant.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  25. so does anyone know where this India Girl says Warm Water halt is? I keep finding talks about it, but wasn’t sure if her thought was shared publicly ..thanks

    • Linda;

      The Little Girl… was a made-up person by Jenny over on her site. There is no Little Girl In India – therefore, “she” never said WWWsH is.

      Go to http://www.TarryScant.com and type in “Little girl” and you will get a bunch of posts that should help you. Hope this helps – JDA

      • thank you very much JDA, yes now I can stop thinking some has the first clue. and back to my work..
        have a great day yall and a better weekend.

        • You are welcome. Some do have or had the first clue. Forrest has said several times that people (searchers) have been within 200′ and 500′ – therefore, they probably have solved at least one clue. Forrest has also said that people have solved the first two clues, and even once said that they have probably solved the first four clues, although he was not sure. – JDA

  26. The first stanza in poem narrows down the area of the Rocky Mountains to a much smaller area , we are to narrow down this area to the place that WWH`s … the poem and TTOTC give the first area and a good map and/or GE helps find WWWH`s . IMO

    • JPE – These are very encompassing and vague statements . Can you put a bit more meat on the bone? WHAT in stanza, in your opinion, narrows the search area of the Rocky Mountains? What is there in stanza #1 that says it is in NM, CO, WY or MT? I don’t see anything.

      Same say “New and Old” = NM. Some say Treasure = MT the treasure state. These seem pretty obscure to me.

      What “In the poem” or “TToTC” or GE helps with WWWsH? Broad statements, nothing to back them up. Can you help us please? – JDA

      • Hello jda. The poem does not help with locating wwwh. Because I am botg this weekend, probably the last time, I will share this. Go to “I’m getting dizzy…” communication from Mr. Fenn. If I’m right, it takes you from wwwh along maybe 2/3 of our physical journey. I’ve been locked on this from the beginning. It also hints at how to unlock the poem architecture.

        • Hi Sean;

          Good luck with your BOTG. Hope you find all that you seek.

          I have always liked this SB. Makes one wonder why he added it to OUAW revised as the only new chapter. I think that the 10′ ladder plays a role in finding Indulgence. Is there other important info included? Not sure, but I will keep looking. JDA

          • JDA,
            Do you think we need a 10 ft ladder and a shadow to find indulgence?
            I can possibly see maybe a 10 ft incline with rock steps to the blaze but a ladder ???

          • Interpretation – Imagination. Maybe not a ten foot ladder, but how about a 10′ tall tree? How about a hint of 10′ up on a shelf/plateau of some kind? What is “between the lines” that we need to know? – JDA

          • Again Jake, it’s not that you really need these things with you. They are part of the story that can be figured out very easily if you have the time, date, and spot. It’s the distance that we are interested in.

            For me JDA, it’s a 7′ stick shaped like a “Y”. Sun at 5 degrees creates an 80′ shadow. (on 8/22). All stems from Skippy, standing up, knowlege, 2 people can keep….etc…and is done at the 8th clue. Where I think a bell is buried.

  27. In reply to JDA , First of all , i am new here to the blog , love to read all the comments . i guess i was a little short on information in the above statement , i will do better , NOW , we need to find THE place WWWH`s in a huge area of land so FF narrowed that down for us in stanza #1 , just stay with me here , ok , AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERE , we must think of places he has went alone , places he has been that he fell in love with AND wanted to leave his bones . i believe his dad showed him this place for the first time on one of their summer trips but FF has been back a few times by himself before and after his father died , [ TWO PEOPLE CAN KEEP A SECRET IF ONE OF THEM IS DEAD ] i guess my point is that IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP . this is just my opinion , an example of what 1st stanza is there for , then use a good map and/or GE to pin point WWWH`s

    • JPE – Welcome to the chase. Hope you have fun.

      You say: ” i guess my point is that IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP . ” Seems to me to be a BIG step in logic. I agree that Forrest’s father MAY have shown him THE place – But why does it have to be Yellowstone? Yellowstone just seems a bit too obvious to me. The trip from Texas to YNP is 1600 miles. It took four days. They needed to stop at least three times (Not counting gas and bathroom breaks) I am sure that they had a couple of over-night camping spots where they liked to stop, fish, refresh, stretch their legs etc. These stops could have been in NM. Colorado or in Wyoming. 1600 divided by 3 = about 533 miles per day. This would make stops in Amarillo. Denver, and Casper. If four stops were made Maybe Amarillo, Colorado Springs, Ft. Collins, CO or Laramie, WY, and Lander WY. (All just guesses.
      There are lots of pretty areas to over-night camp between Denver and YNP. Just something to think about. Again, For me, YNP is just TOO obvious – Good luck to Ya’ and again, welcome to the search – JDA

      • “Too obvious” doesn’t have to automatically disqualify a place. At the same time, though, “too obvious” doesn’t have to guarantee the place. Especially since what is “obvious” to one entity may not be obvious to
        all entities. Gee. All the clues still have to work together and make sense to FF and also, by extension, to his theoretical average person capable of solving the poem correctly. In other words, the poem may only have to make absolute logical sense to FF (his trove, his rules).
        I happen to believe that the poem should be correctly solvable by a person of “sorta-average” intelligence who isn’t afraid to use a dictionary, and has a lot of perseverance. But I also think that the TC will be found less than a few years from now, so anyone seriously planning to find it should tarry scant in solving the poem. As always, in my opinion.

    • *** *** *** ***
      JPE suggested – i believe his dad showed him this place for the first time on one of their summer trips but FF has been back a few times by himself before and after his father died . . . . IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP”
      **** **** ****

      ff’s own backstory is something you (we) can’t un-know once we know it.

      I wonder, though, about how much decisive weight it can (or should) be allowed to swing in reading the poem. Given that, being in the book not the poem, it’s really only a hint.

      If it’s so, it’s An Awful Big Hint – a “critical hint” if you will – that can actually “point you toward the treasure chest.” And at the same time a person *without* ff’s own backstory would be severely disadvantaged.

      But the whole hint/clue thing has always been squishy ground. And as I said at the beginning, once we start learning places he’s been, it’s practically impossible to pretend we can’t see them.

      Jake

  28. JDA , one more thing , 1st stanza does not narrow down WWWH , it narrows down the the hiding spot but we will find that WWWH is in the same area.

    • A agree that we will find WWWsH in the area of search – we just disagree as to where that search area is. MANY searchers like the YNP area, I do not – 🙂 JDA

    • JPE,

      The first stanza you said “narrows down the hiding spot”, how is that so, when we were told “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.

      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/s.” f

      What part of stanza one that narrows down the hiding spot? I don’t see even a remote suggestion in that stanza that narrows down the hiding spot.

      IMO the first stanza is an intro to what he did, keeping a secret, and will give hints in the remaining 5 stanzas to find the chest that contains new and old gold. There is nothing in the first stanza that points to a geographical place, nor are there any directions given.

      Forrest in the beginning said at the link above, “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure.”f IMO the first stanza has the few words that will not help.

      Just Say’n

        • FD,

          Debatable, there are hints and clues in the poem. Just go’n by the poem, “And hint of riches new and old.” Maybe he couldn’t work in the word “clue” in the poem.

          • Yes, it would seem that when f used “hint” in the first stanza that would mean the hint is right there, not somewhere else.

            Just like when he used “Begin” to signify the beginning clue.

      • So, CharlieM, you think Forrest, an accomplished wordsmith and imaginative writer, spent 15 years crafting a poem and left the 1st stanza as an unimaginative literal introduction?

        IMO the first stanza metaphorically frames the entire poem and will turn out to have significant relevance to the solution. In what way, I can’t say (as in I don’t know) but there are words that will relate to (add to) the solution. “alone in there”, “bold”, “hint of” “new and old” . If nothing in your solve can be metaphorically associated with the first stanza, then you probably need a new solve.

        mBG

      • I’m with FD. He also said not to discount any of the nouns. Doesn’t matter, the first stanza is just as important as the rest. And again, the hints are just as important as the clues, if not more so.

  29. Ok , i believe the first stanza is a big hint to where to look for the first clue . when i very first heard about the chase i had no idea where to start , i have never been to any of the search states , so there i was looking at the map in TFTW of Rocky Mountains thinking [ you got to be kidding me ] but after reading poem many times and TTOTC a few times i looked back to the map and GE , for ME , stanza # 1 is saying that in all of the Rocky`s there is a place that HE went alone more than any other place and i think he was a kid , he did say that he is [ almost umbilically connected to the place ] . i was drawn to West Yellowstone and YNP and yes i have been taken in other directions but have always came back to WHERE I STARTED . just sayin

      • Aaron , hi , i have set at a computer for many hours [ i expect much as any searcher ] i have read the poem and book many times and looked at maps till i was seeing double and i can`t think of the chest being anywhere but in one stretch of roadway [ thats just a way to put it ] I truly believe it is somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road . am i dreaming ? I DON`T THINK SO

        • JPE, We are translating the poem in a similar fashion I think, but are in different areas. I have searched up and down the area you are looking on though. I’m headed to my spot this weekend 🙂

          • Hi Aaron,

            “somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road” – be careful there – too many hungry grizzlies (especially if you go 500 ft out of trails). They don’t like visitors 🙂
            Good luck and be safe 🙂

          • Thanks Andy, by the way that is JPE that is “somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road”. I’m going a little further than 500′ from a road, but also in grizzly territory. There will be two of us both with bear spray.

  30. We have been working hard on finding explanations for Forrest Fenn’s poem. During winter 18/19 we’ve got our solution – it is consistent and quite simple.
    We were (and still are) that conviced about it, that we planned and undertook a treasure-hunting-expedition in New Mexico in May 19. This was not a one-day-trip for us – we live in Switzerland! Four guys of us had some fun and exciting days in the Rocky Mountains. Our goal was to find the last clue (we know that it is necessary to be on site for that) – and of course – to find the treasure.

    Unfortunately we didn’t find it. We underestimated the weather in May in the mountains of New Mexico. There was still too much melting water in ‚our‘ canyon and we even got some snowfall. Althought we reached the place that we wanted, it was not possible to search there as intensive as it would have been necessary.

    We really would like to go back for another attempt. But for us it’s just too expensive and time-consuming to go for another searching-expedition.

    So we decided to share our solution with the community in this blog. We will add some Videos that describes it clue by clue – and parallel we complete our treasure map step by step. We hope to give some inspiration. And we hope to get a kickback from the one who finds the treasure due to our solution :-).

    We just published our solution about ‘where warm waters halt’ on our site. Have a look on our site https://www.get-it-now.ch

    Be careful when you search along our solution at ‚our place‘. We think that the place is not really too dangerous, but there can obviously bee too much water after the snowmelt and after heavy rainfalls.

      • Yes – it’s a great area – we enjoyed it during our treasure-hunting expedition in New Mexico very much. But for us it’s “only” the starting-point for our treasure map. Our way leads us further south.

        We just published our solution-video no 4 with our guess about what should be taken which canyon down and about the home of brown. Have fun and good luck 🙂 !

  31. I made it to the center of the Caldera, as I thought it was there, but the only thing I found were elk bones scattered about.

    Good Luck,

    BDM

    • Sorry you didn’t find what you sought, but not everyone can find an elk skeleton – So, you found something that most can not 🙂 JDA

  32. While looking in YHP in Ocher Springs Area I found a complete Buffalo Skull, no arrowhead embedded, but all the same pretty neat.

    BDM

  33. I think I have a new idea on WWWH.

    I had planned to spend the summer in my search location until I came home with the TC. Unfortunately, a family issue kept me from leaving until this month. As I was firming up plans last night, I learned something that I think may interest some of you, regarding Where Warm Waters Halt.

    I feel certain about my WWWH and my HOB. But, I have discovered that my WWWH fits a different description of WWWH in addition to the reason I have chosen it as my personal WWWH. It fits for two reasons. Pretty sure I’ve never heard this definition before.

    Apparently there is an international system of classifying calm verses rapid water. This is important to know if you are kayaking or rafting in a river or stream. There are six different classes of water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_scale_of_river_difficulty All of the classes are assigned a number I-IV. Each is also given a color code. Level V is red. I notice that each classification color is a warm color except for level I which is green. (think green verses red street lights-Eric Sloan waiting for the light to change). So anyway; one definition of “warm” can relate to a color that is warm. So I find it interesting to apply this information to the sentence “Begin it where warm waters halt”. There is actually more to the word halt used here, if I am right. But, focusing on strictly the classification of river rapids (because I can’t share what else I believe about “halt”), lets look at how the river classification would define this sentence. If a river is classified as anything but calm waters which could be considered halted, the color classification would be “warm” (magenta, red, orange, yellow). But, if the river is classified as green, it would not be warm. It would be cool. So if you look at a river where the rapid water which is classified as a warm color, and you see it suddenly change to calm water, it would then be classified as green. So when warm (classification) turns to calm waters, you could say that warm waters halted. I think this requires no stretching of any definitions. It is simple! Rapid waters which are classified as warm will halt when they calm and thus become not warmly classified because calm waters are classified as green.

    Not that I rely upon the opinion of the “little girl in India”, but it is interesting to note that this classification system is International; meaning that the little girl in India could know this information if she had studied rivers.

    I think this

    • I originally agreed with this assessment and was why I was under the impression that WWWH was Warm Springs right below Warm Springs Cliff in the heart of Dinosaur National Monument. It meets the Yampa River. It is literally due south of Browns Park NWR. That river is no place for the Meek as it is a Class IV rapid going down the canton if I remember correctly. I did some research of that area and back in the 70s there was a huge rock avalanche increasing the water depth. They stated typically every 1000 years there is a huge rock slide that changes the area and water. Due to Fenns comment about it might change in the future (not exact words), I took this as heavy loads and water high.

      Taking the canyon down following the rapid, the river draws nigh to the left, wrapping around Jenny Lind Rock to the upside down Omega symbol (Horse shoe looking at it). This leads you to Pool Creek (There’ll be no paddle up your creek) to go along with the Jenny Lind Rock avalanche. Hear me all and listen good I took to mean Whispering Cave area

      • I see what you are saying James. But personally, I believe “No Place For The Meek” is not asking us to subjectively choose a place that is not for the meek to venture. I believe the entire poem means exactly what it says, and I believe it guides us without us subjectively deciding anything. I think it gives us precise instructions. Meek can mean Pacific. In my opinion, Meek means Pacific. As in, the water that drains from this area does not end up in the Pacific. Just my opinion of course.

    • Flutterby,
      That’s been my definition of WWWH from the beginning and I believe that f describes the exact location in TTOTC.

    • I like that this gives a backwards interpretation. Warm waters halt when they become calm. Begin it where white waters halt. Fun interpretation.

    • Flutterby – Great observation!

      Forrest’s corresponding description, IMO:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2019/04/28/forrest-gets-mail-20/#comment-764778

      Slow and green and cold in the bends, there on the Madison River. Where the big Brown and Rainbow lunkers hide in the ‘buckets’. Or, so my fly fishing librarian friend experienced, yesterday morning, while floating the bends below the S-curve at Silver Creek in Idaho. Awesome trico hatch, Forrest! But she caught the bigguns, late morning, using a hopper and a well placed cast.

  34. As always, apologies if this has been discussed. What if WWWH is the source of the Missouri River.

    My reasoning: FF has quoted multiple times the T.S. Eliot lines “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time.”

    The following lines in the T.S. Eliot poem go: Through the unknown, unremembered gate, when the last of earth left to discover is that which was the beginning; AT THE SOURCE OF THE LONGEST RIVER
    the voice of the hidden waterfall
    And the children in the apple-tree.

    Longest river is the Missouri, so where is there a waterfall near it’s source?

    Thoughts

    • Utmost Headwaters of the Missouri is Browers Spring in Hell Roaring Canyon at 44° 33.025’N 111° 28.348’W ( there is an informative google earth community post nearby on google earth)

      Unless you want to go by name, then look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Headwaters_State_Park

      That article also describes Lemhi Pass which was considered the source for a while. (at the headwaters of Trail Creek 44° 59.012’N 113° 26.435’W)

      mBG

      • Of course now you are going to have to go to Lillian Lake (Forrest’s Mother’s name) which is on hell roaring creek below the headwaters.

        mBG

    • The Headwaters State Park, and the source of the Missouri is a serene spot. It is below 5000 feet, and following the Missouri takes you even lower in elevation unless you leave the river at some point way downstream and head up into one of the mountainous areas in the Helena National Forest.

  35. What if warm also means = Mid or middle
    (deduced from: warm is middle of 2 “w” words plus also mid sentence of Begin and Halt)
    Then perhaps some options could be:
    *Middle fork of a river
    *Middle river
    *Middle creek (lot of these but needs a canyon like Middle Creek in yellowstone or near Hole in the Wall or near Vail etc.)
    *Mid-way geyser basin
    *Or middle plus “ace in the hole” (alone in there) could be Firehole midway maybe?

    Just thinking only of poem words only here.

  36. Ever notice that on the Firehole there is a upper lip curve or like a ‘double omicron’ midway?

    Halt synonym = end = point like a drawing point of a pencil?
    Didn’t Forrest say he liked fishing in river bends?
    Aren’t some of those also what some might call ‘points.’
    Like Steamboat point for example?

  37. Hi All;

    I have had several different places where Warm Waters Halted. Most have involved a smaller body of water (A stream or creek or some-such) joining a larger body of water – a river or lake.

    This afternoon I thought about another interpretation. What if TWO little streams – having possibly one source, ended at a lake or river or somewhere. Wouldn’t that be warm water(S) halting? HUMMM – Has possibilities – JDA

    • Ok… has this kind of idea been thrown around before when I wasn’t looking?

      You say you have had “several different places where warm waters halted” – Fenn has said “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt…”

      So my wondering goes like this:
      What if you take your very favorite warm waters halt, follow it to it’s conclusion because it’s PERFECT – but when you go there, no chest. (Sound familiar? Me too.) Your friend has a warm waters halt of similar “type” but different location. He thinks it’s PERFECT – but when he goes there, no chest. So what if each of you, going through the poem line by line, successfully found ONE CLUE. Once through the poem = 1 clue. So with this line of thinking there would be NINE places where warm waters halt (as well as the locations indicated by the lines that follow), you would have to know where each general solve location is, and something about them (locations/names/historys/geographys) will help you to figure out how to follow them precisely…

      Too complicated?

      -even

  38. frank, on a more serious note, I think you have to drive up the “canyon down” to get to WWWH possibly coming from the HOB. But there may be multiple ways to get to WWWH. It’s possible you drive by or thru some of the clues.
    I don’t think it matters where you came from or how you get to WWWH.
    The most import thing is you get there.
    I’ll put this over on the WWWH page where it belongs.

      • I think it would be a good question to ask Fenn although he probably wouldn’t answer.
        Did you drive by or thru any of the clues on the way to WWWH?

        • Jake I answered your question at what are we looking for- the clues start at wwwh from there – from wwh there are no clues south of or east of wwwh the clues go from the east to the west to the north – so he drove by the clues till he got to the last clue in the wood where he parked- wwwh is the start of all the clues

  39. Been away for a while, changed residences…. so I haven’t kept up, but got to wondering if anyone has considered if WWWH is a reference to an altitude? I think the highest hot spring in the U.S. might be Conundrum Hot Springs in Colorado… at 10,200′ I’m told. Now where have we heard 10’200′ before?

    • Conundrum Hot Springs is at 11,200. But I don’t think the elevation limits necessarily apply to the clues, but definitely apply to the treasure itself. There is also debate as to whether WWWH has to be reachable by an 80 year old. Some interpret Forrest saying he followed the clues as meaning he physically went to every clue, other focus on him saying one must follow them, at least in your mind. (not exact quotes, obviously)

      mBG

      • mBG;

        Look at this link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

        “I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

        When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

        Thank you Curtis

        The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege”.f

        Question posted 6/20/2014:

        mBG; this tells me that Forrest did, in fact, have to walk all of the clues. Were I you, I might reconsider a solve that requires a 79 or 80 YOM to hike to 11,200′ JMO – JDA

        • Yeah, I’ve see that quite a few times.

          That ATF can be interpreted in different ways. It could actually be a tricky, almost non-answer. It says they *should* be followed in order, not specifically that you MUST be physically at each clue in order. Even though the question was clearly asked, the answer was not necessarily addressed precisely to the question.

          Consider the following ATF:
          Q. When you wrote the poem, did you start with the first clue or the ninth?
          A. ” I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.” (https://thefenndiagrams.com/q-a-with-fenn/fourth/)

          … At least in their mind ….

          That leads one to believe that you can physically skip clues.

          Personally, I think WWWH is 80 yo accessible for other reasons (simplicity and cleanliness of the puzzle), but I don’t totally discount potential solves where it is not.

          mBG

          • JDA,
            did you not see this, or just decline to respond? You use that ATF incorrectly a lot to make YOUR point, not Forrest’s. I’ve pointed that out before, and you continue to not respond, and use your (IMO) incorrect interpretation.

            Just Sayin’

            mBG

    • Forest’s scrapbooks per month from Sept 2018 thru Sept 2019 have been 18 in 13 months, or 1.38 per month.
      In October 2019, 15 scrapbooks.
      As of Nov 18th, 13 scrapbooks.
      Al this activity after your comment on October 2, 2019 at 5:24 pm.
      How many of the October 2019 SBs were posted before your comment ?

  40. Looking for your thoughts on Old Faithful possible being the spot where Warm Waters Halt.

    It seems possible to begin at Old Faithful and then take it down the Firehole River.

    How far or to where who knows.

    • Great Idea and Good Luck. I had Old Faithful as WWWH also. My “Home of Brown” was the old Iron Bridge along Freight Road and yes Freight Road was my “Heavy Loads.” Ultimately I gave up because of the statement made by ff that all you need is the poem. Anyway, my solution found the “Blaze” at Grand Prismatic Spring. There is a small trail to the south that ends looking over the valley. Beautiful place, but no bronze box!!! If you Google Earth over this area you will see hidden over the hill is a tarp covering the ground. Found out that this area has been searched by a lot of people.

  41. “Begin it where warm waters halt’. “If you don’t know ‘where warm water halts,’ Fenn said, “you don’t have anything.” (4/24/14)

    “You don’t have anything.” = nothing = Zero = WWW IMO.

    Coke Zero, 0°C, 32°F, Japanese Zero, Z-row, who knows? Coke Zero probably not because he doesn’t like diet drinks if memory serves.

    Pinatubocharlie

  42. What do you think????

    Certainly FF knew when he wrote the poem that most people would grab a map, but do you need a map?

    FF said if you want to find the treasure that everything you need is in the poem for all to see and to read his book and think. FF did not say to use a map. In fact in reference to a map he did say: “What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.”

    Isn’t FF telling us not to use a map?

    What do you think this statement means?????

    • New way of thinking:

      You say: “FF did not say to use a map” i I think that you are wrong. Forrest mentions using a map many times. Look at SB – 62 as an example:

      APRIL 2014
      “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map”.f

      Go to Tarryscat,com and put in map and you will get many many more examples where Forrest has said to use a map, to marry the poem to a map, that the poem is a map etc. JDA

  43. “Begin it where warm waters halt”
    Where does warm water halt (stop,freeze)?
    It halts when it freezes, which is at 32°.
    32° Longitude, or the 32nd Parallel goes through New Mexico. It’s the southern line border between Texas and New Mexico.

    Then follow the clues. I’ve read in the other forum people talking about “ghosts” and n”np place for the meek”. No one has brought up the ghost town in New Mexico named “Meek”. It is about 15 miles NE of Lincoln. Another point on the trail.

    • I have heard other people say warm waters halt when it freezes. Doesn’t the water need to be warm to begin with? Many people that are talking about water freezing are referring to cold water freezing…

  44. A lot of people are looking in Yellowstone for some reason. If they are set on the treasure being in that area, Glacier National Park is a much better choice.
    1) Warm waters halt when they freeze and become glaciers.
    2) There is “Loneman Mountain” to cover “As I have gone alone in there.”
    3) Drive through on “Going to the Sun” road. The sun is about the biggest blaze we can see from Earth.
    4) You have Mt. Cleveland (home of brown, Cleveland Browns), and right next door you have Mt. Brown.
    5) A little bit south in the park you have Mt. Heavy Runner for “Heavy Loads and Water High”.
    6) “Bishop’s Cap” is right there for “Take the chest and go in peace”.
    7) And we have “Chief Mountain” if “you are a brave and in the wood”.
    8) “So hear me all and listen good” at Amphitheater Mountain in Glacier National Park. It’s beautiful I hear.

    Of course, none of these solves are better than anyone else’s, unless they lead to the gold.
    Some people don’t use common sense though. A man from Pennsylvania was fined for digging a swimming pool sized hole in a national park. He made several trips to dig a hole that big. He said he KNOWS that he was only 3 feet away. He hopes the park service will finish the work so people will stop dying. Seriously? He believes Forrest Fenn dug down to the depth of a swimming pool, say 10 feet, in just 4 hours to hide the treasure? He went there with the chest and a shovel, dug an olympic-sized swimming pool hole, hid the treasure, covered it back up and left? In the matter of four hours? He was so close – just 3 more feet and he would have had it!

  45. Could Old Faithful be the warm waters halt?

    The definition of halt as a noun is something to the effect of coming to a stop, either temporary or permanently.

    Old Faithful (warm waters? average temperature of 204 degrees F.) halts every 35 to 120 minutes for two to five minutes, then repeats the halting process over and over.

    Maybe this has been discussed before, if so I missed the post.

    Looking for additional thoughts and ideas.

    Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down……

    • Jim-
      Of course it could and many folks have explored that possibility. There are, of course hundreds…maybe thousands…maybe tens of thousands of other places that could also be WWWH. If you feel strongly about it and if that place sends you to the remaining eight places in the Poem…and at the end you discover Forrest’s chest, you’ll know you were correct…

  46. I have not read this thread but want to offer some thoughts here. I am no longer able to do the chase since i live in Italy now and not New Mexico. So here is my idea about WWWH. Steam engine trains are what made the state of New Mexico. Forest used to listen to them blow as a kid. There is a thing called a water stop. It is where steam engine trains stop to take on more water (fuel) for the journey. You can google wikipedia and water stops. It is a familiar term. It was first used in England. The British called it a water halt not a water stop. There are many train stations in England that are called by the town or location name and the the word halt. Such as Oxford Halt Station. The are many of these. Google Oxford Halt Station. So, in my humble opinion, WWWH is a Water Halt Station as the Brits would call them – yankees called them water stops.

  47. John Paul,
    I had the very same thought. Interestingly enough, one railroad seemed to fit nicely. The Cumbre & Toltec Scenic RR that runs from Chama, NM to Antonito, CO. The route runs back and forth across the shared border and along the beautiful Toltec Gorge (or valley). I remember FF saying that his trip was 6 hours, though that may not be correct. The train ride is 6 hours one way and makes 2 water stops. The first is in the ghost town of Sublette, but passengers can’t get off at this one. There is another stop near the end, which is on a pretty high cliff and only accessible by that train.

    Just a coincidence, but in the Moby Dickens interview, FF talked about “Grab every Banana”. He said his father told him, “The train doesn’t go by that tree but one time, so grab every banana ON THE WAY BACK.” It’s at about 20:00 mins in interview. Interestingly, all of the railroad related buildings along the way were/are painted yellow and brown. And it all fits the elevation requirements.

    I am so willing to say that because I have another place in mind that fits the clues, but have to wait till spring (after the snow melts to go.)
    Take Care.
    Matt

  48. Has anyone ever considered the headwaters of the Rio Grande to be WWWH? I’ll explain my thinking on this one. Obviously, the headwaters would be where it starts or begins. But the poem says “begin *it*”. So if you look up the definition of the word “it”, the first definition says; used to reffer to something previously mentioned or easily identified. Well, the translation of Rio Grande is “Big River”, so it would be easily identified. The Rio Grande is a huge river. It starts in southwest Colorado and flows all the way down to Mexico and out into the Gulf. And it actually flows right through Santa Fe where Forrest lives. And remember what he said about WWWH. He said, “You have to find *my* warm waters.” So I think he means warm as in close to him. So if you followed the Rio Grande from Santa Fe, the Rio Grande would end or halt at it’s headwaters in Colorado. If that’s WWWH, I think I may know where the chest would be because I think I’ve solved a couple of more clues in that direction. I can link a GE image to where I think the chest is if anyone wants me to.

  49. Lets look at the BIG picture , the lower geyser basin in YNP definitely has warm waters , lots of it [ all the geysers in that BIG basin ] but where does the warm water halt ? it all pretty much halts when it runs into the FIREHOLE river . I know I know , that area has been searched many many times , but if you take the firehole canyon DOWN [which is north ] you can see HOB right in front of you . just LOOK at the big picture . IMO

  50. Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
    “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

    Many:
    1 consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number
    2 being one of a large but indefinite number

    So, a large number of folks found WWWH but didn’t it.
    Sounds like a hot tourist spot.

  51. Hello All,

    I have not had the chance to read this thread yet either nut had a question worth posing:

    Has anyone considered the possibility that WWWH refers to a latitude line corresponding to the temperature where water would no longer be considered warm (namely 37 degrees on the low end and 40 on the high end)? This would certainly be a definitive starting point.

    -Ann

  52. What if there were two perfect places that fit
    WWWH, and you could start at one and
    follow the clues back to the other one. You
    would essentially begin it where warm waters halt,
    and halt it where warm waters begin. Could
    that explain why you have to know where to
    begin? So you’ll know the end when you get there?
    Throw me some chum, it’s lonely down here on
    the bottom. LOL

    • bottom feeder,

      my current /general solve/ is not complete but follows a sort of logic not far off from yours – though in mine, you would not likely work out the second WWWH location without finding the first and following clues. different way of looking at it than some. do not think that necessarily means you are wrong.

      -even

  53. WWWH is a single location. The map clearly shows this point and also the resting point of indulgence. The TC location is near water but by no means in it. 200 feet from a road and 500 feet from a walking track. The blaze points the way to it and the HOB is at the TC location. Hence “Put in below the Home of Brown” being quite literal. All of the clues are at face value and no decifering is required. All you need is a good map and the poem. The best Clue Forrest has shared was Marry the Poem to the map. Look up the word marry. Happy hunting all.

  54. So much to keep track of down here, I can’t
    find the quote, but didn’t Forrest say something
    like you begin by getting in your car and going
    to where WWH? But he doesn’t actually say
    “and drive to where WWH”? I’ve got 2 perfect
    WWWH but only one can be driven to, and
    I really like the the other spot. It works really
    well but is too far to walk to or from, and you
    definitely can’t drive there. Those 2 places
    of course, are Isa Lake and the Parting of
    The Waters. Both in Y-oming. Oops, am
    I supposed to keep that secret?

    • You hiked into the parting of the waters?
      Bet that was a far out trip. Both places do
      connect at the Snake River I think. Just not
      at the same place on the river. If each spot
      was considered a ‘Y’, then if you are below
      them then you have been Y’s. Doesn’t
      do much for me tho, cause I go the other
      way and search in Montana. I’m partial to
      the idea of starting in Wyoming and ending
      in Montana, with Yellowstone “ in the middle”.
      (and I have a free place to stay in Mt.)

  55. I believe I’ve figured out where we’ve been going wrong when looking for WWWH. It’s a simple idea that I’m sure hundreds of people have thought of, but they just didn’t take it far enough. That whole first stanza from WWWH to HOB is trying to help you find WWWH. It’s about 3 miles south of HOB. Brown is not a person. He capitalized it to try and help you make the connection between “home” and “brown”. It was actually one of the first few places I looked. But I hadn’t figured out the WWWH part, so I forgot about it. WWWH has nothing to do with warm either. Study those first two lines very very carefully. But if you get frustrated with it and want me to just tell you, I will.

      • New way, take the last two letters of the word “waters” (where warm waters halt) and put them in the word “canyon”. Replace the N and Y with R and S. It gives you the word Carson. It’s Carson Resevoir in Wyoming. The way you know it’s right is from “Put in below HOB” Carson Resevoir is 3 miles south of Recluse, which is HOB.

        • No name 6,
          Why?
          What with the poem or the book implies we need take to letters from a word and more letters seemingly flipped and inserted into that the word you just pulled apart…?

          I mean others have indicate the same method of doing this to decipher clues… Explained how the method works….Yet nobody explains why this is the right method.

          • Seeker, I’m sorry, but if you don’t get it by reading the first two lines, I won’t be able to explain it any better than that. Forrest knew that everyone would assume he was talking about an actual location. But his instructions were meant to be applied to the poem literally. It fits the whole first stanza. “Not far” (because it’s car) “But too far to walk” (again trying to help you with the word car) “Put in below HOB” Carson Resevoir is 3 miles south of Recluse, which is HOB.

          • I get what you’re implying, No Name.
            I don’t get why you’re using that method?
            Something must have indicated you to pull letter from one word and dissect another word and create a name of a place.
            Or ya just pulled the method, idea out of thin air and had a go at it.
            I’m just asking why you approach the method in the first place?

        • I should have just changed a word in the poem to the name of the road I live on… why didn’t I think of this before? thanks NoName, now it all “fits perfectly” 🙂

      • Seeker, I got the idea from reading the first two lines. He’s always said that you only need the poem to find it. So in the poem, where do warm waters halt? It halts at the letters R and S. Then it tells you to take it (R and S) in the canyon down. So if you put R and S in the word canyon on the next line, you get Carson. Then the HOB line is telling you that Carson is below or south of HOB. I believe that to be the town of Recluse because you’ve got the brown recluse spider and people who are described as recluses generally stay at home. I’ll put a GE link so you can see it. https://earth.app.goo.gl/Sm9dzR
        I used the same method on the next stanza as well turning the word “drawing” into the word “drown” and it took me to an interesting place. I’ll link that as well. https://earth.app.goo.gl/tZGQzS. Note the name of the resevoir below Drown Creek. No place for the meek.

        • NoName,

          While your method is interesting, I feel like the two locations you have identified using the method are rather far apart. Are you thinking both are part of a potential solve or were they separate ideas for a possible location? I like the idea of were do warm waters halt in the poem! Not sure about the letter substitution. If there wasn’t a need to transfer the poem onto a map I may be inclined to the more literal (more so than even I have been taking the poem and I probably take t more literal than some here) approach you have implemented. Like most, I struggle to connect the poem directly to a mapped location. And it’s not for lack of options. It’s for lack of a reason why that spot or this spot is THE spot the poem points us to, as opposed to some other spot with similar fitting places. All IMO. If you can answer that, I think you would have a heads up on the rest of us! 🙂

          -Ann

        • NoName6: I’ll start by asking why choose *two* letters at the end of the word “waters”? Why not just one? Or three? And if you want to be truly “literal” with the poem, why don’t you begin (the word) “it” where warms waters halt (s): sit. Or even the “h” of halt (giving “hit”), since the word “waters” ends where “halt” begins. For the former possibility, one might make a connection to the original owner of Forrest’s prized peace pipe: SITting Bull… For the latter, Forrest has made a number of references to baseball, football, golf, and even dropping bombs in the war and on test ranges: all activities where the word “hit” is important.

          What I’m getting at is your method can produce many results — some of which will seem Chase-relevant, or have ties to geographic features in one or more of the four states. Seeker’s point (I believe) is that your particular approach is arbitrary, not uniquely correct and self-apparent. It doesn’t mean Forrest couldn’t have utilized such an approach; but if he did, there would have to be some built in support that added confidence that it was the correct approach over all the other similar possibilities.

        • That’s wack NoName6!
          Messing with the poem by rearranging and eliminating letters.
          Discounting a word in the poem “warm”.
          Spider connection?
          I would love to see where this takes you where the treasure is.

          • Sorry Seeker, I’ve never been very good at selling my ideas. And I do agree that there should be some sort of predictable pattern if he were to use such a method. I even thought that the little town of Spotted Horse west of Carson Res. and Recluse could have been the blaze. I guess I just had solver’s vision because some things were aligning. I was working on a much more complicated solve before this. So maybe I’ll go back to that. It’s based off the term “riches new” because you’ve got the S at the end of riches you get (SNEW) possibly refering to south, north, east, and west. So my idea was to put the poem in a grid so the letters line up, and then go through the poem and find each one of those letters and write down each one according to its direction. So for example, when you come to the letter N, you would write down the letter above that N etc. There were a couple of things that made me think of that as a possibily. For instance, not one line starting with W (west). The last line contains no S (south). And every instance where an E ends the line, there is punctuation next to it. As well as the contraction “there’ll” perhaps he did it that way because he couldn’t have a W there.

          • Yes, Jake. Once you get a few things to line up you tend to get searcher’s vision. It’s like tunnel vision, but for searchers.

        • NoName,

          OK… I see how you’ve come to the idea of “waters” letters, But why the last ‘2’ letter and not just the ‘S’?
          The poem states later of “water’ high”~ being the differ of the S… you left “Waters” hanging as ‘wate’ because you needed the lat 2 letters… that seems to be a force fit to me.
          In which case I can see that letter {S} being used in this manner to help find a word for a location. But having a hard time with the 2 last letters.

          I’m not arguing as in fighting… I debate for the purpose of possibility in any conversation. I don’t conceive the notion that ‘any theory’ is possible, there has to be a check and balance to even try an experiment for it vitality. There needed to be a high level of probability involved for the chance to be a possible correct method, idea, process, theory, of it all.

          Besides the removing of 2 letters, rather than, the halt letter of S only, line of thinking… You now have to choose which letters from the word “canyon” to be replaced. Is this a shot in the dark on where to use them until a name of something close by works? There are six letters in canyon, right?

          Then we have “drawing”… what am I missing here?
          If you used the next line in stanza 2 for “canyon to Carson”… where does a word in stanza’s 3 line; TBNPUYC, after the word drawing [line], produce “drown” in this manner used in stanza 2?
          Doesn’t the method need to be consistent, or can I use a word from stanza 1 or 6-?- to make a name of a place to work in stanza 3?
          How did “drown” come from “drawing”… what word used to remove the A and ING [ 4 letters ] for replacing them with O and N [ 2 letters ] come from?

          Do you see my dilemma?
          In one case you chose 2 letters to remove and replace… yet later… remove 4 letter and replace those with 2 letters, and more than likely a word from another part of the poem that is not in the next line after the word “drawing” as done in the same manner as stanza 2.

          I’m confused on the order, organization, or lack of any organization, in the method. It seems very random and force fit of location with no real rules to follow in that method of changing word’s letter to create a name of a place.

          • Yes, you are absolutely right seeker. I’m foolish for ever having thought of this. Sorry for leading you all astray.

          • NoName,

            Do not let the remarks of those here discourage you. Many are quick to jump on a new idea and pick it apart to try and better understand the reasoning. While the approach of some may have felt aggressive, I am sure it was all meant to get a clearer picture of where you were coming from. I for one thought it was an interesting process which did lead to some interesting places. AS you will discover, however, there are several ways to arrive at several locations. Only the person who finds the chest will be correct so don’t feel bad if it feels like others are pouncing on your ideas. Feel free to share them and take the comments as feedback. And keep in mind that we all are only exchanging opinions here. No one has any more expertise on this matter than anyone else. Hopefully those who comment will share something with you that may be helpful to you as well as you try and figure it all out like the rest of us. And it’s okay to stir the pot from time to time. Just don’t get stuck in it! All IMO of course.

            -Ann

          • Well, NoName,
            I expected a continuation of a conversation… but if you want to fold your hand I can’t stop you.

            As Zap said more elegantly ~ Forrest couldn’t have utilized such an approach; but if he did, there would have to be some built in support that added confidence that it was the correct approach over all the other similar possibilities.

            LOL and that’s from a guy who has bucked heads with me for many years on the same principles of [ for lack of a better term ] letter swapping.
            Be it a right or wrong method, Zap had the gumption for debating / gave arguments for his theory… even when it was confusing [for me and others]… he still stayed with the conversation presenting his idea.

            Isn’t the the reason to chat on the blog? discussions of possibilities in the challenge… and the possibles likelihood of them? Oh! and don’t worried about my astray… I don’t have a path to even consider.

          • NN6,
            I agree with both sides of this. My own solution uses multiple letter swaps, but mine are in different lines of the poem than yours. I also agree with the others that you should assess your method by looking for it to apply in a reasonable consistent manner across the whole poem and for it to give you something that looks like usable directions to a location. So if the first clues are spread far apart I would expect that the next clues should be in the same general direction and without too many turns or options between them. If you have that sort of consistency for multiple clues I think that you have an idea worth checking out further. Keep at it and welcome to the discussion, this can be a useful place to get feedback. Just don’t expect to get much affirmation since everyone here is fairly solidly fixed on their own interpretation.

          • Yeah, JW. I agree. I had searchers vision. The poem is so vague, there’s nearly an infinite number of ways you could interpret it. For example, I thought “look quickly down” was Peak Six in Colorado. A quick look is called a peek and the number 6 is at the bottom of a clock. But you could easily say that Rifle would be an even better word based on its definition.

          • For those interested-

            I find this tidbit of info may be useful here. And admittedly I was not it’s discoverer. Someone else brought it to my attention.

            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. f”
            (4/26/14) http://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/26/scrapbook-sixty-two/

            Hope you find it helpful, All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Oh, that’s okay, Ann. It’s not the first time I’ve been wrong about something, and I’m sure it won’t be the last. That’s partly the reason I do put solves on here. I want people to find fault with it to test whether it’s a solid solution or not. So I don’t really mind constructive criticism. Back to the drawing board.

          • NoName,

            That’s a great way of looking at it. Felt bad about responses. Thought you deserved lighter replies. I am quite new to all of this myself so, like everyone else, I am still learning. Keep the ideas flowing though. I too like to share my thoughts. I have less skin in the game than some and I am more interesting in solving the problem than finding the chest. And no, that’s not an oxymoron to those reading! Obviously, when someone finds the chest the problem will be solved. I meant I don’t care about personally finding the chest, just that it is found. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • NN6,
            I like the breadth of your thinking, and if this is an early attempt from you it’s way better than my first few attempts. Keep casting a wide net.

          • NoName,

            Attempting a method isn’t wrong…
            I think JW is implying the same idea I tried to. So far, many idea have not produced much more than early searcher have done. Some haven’t even got as far as those earlier searcher with clues solved.
            In my mind {no matter how others respond} if a searcher post a theory or thoughts, it should be and excepted for, feed back… how you use that feed back is up to you. Something noted about your solution may spur a comment you may not have considered.
            Only be warned; some of us {myself} might seem more direct, while others fluffinutter. My best advice… just take it as it comes, use it as you will… not everyone has the same personality.

  56. To All-

    So i was checking out the back country link Lori posted elsewhere when a thought about WWWH came to mind. From what I’ve seen so far, everyone seems to be looking for a geographical location associated with the end of some warm body of water. Then I read a brief remark about WWWH maybe not having anything to do with warm. And I thought if not warm, then maybe when (where in time) warm water halts, which from a scientific standpoint could be when water freezes. Water is warmer than ice, but in freezing it no longer moves freely as it does in liquid form. It quite literally halts. I am sure I am not the first to suggest this and I don’t have much more to say. It doesn’t really help pinpoint a WWWH although I would rule out an elevation related frost such as where snow is likely to accrue on a mountain. I don’t think FF uses any temporary clues. I am inclined to think perhaps a reference to glaciers or a known point of cold waters. And, while I try to avoid rabbit holes I must take this a step further if not just for the sake of stating it, but could not WWWH be a seasonal reference. By this I mean, ….I just thought about it and that is unlikely.

    Anyways, I like the idea of a waterfall being involved. And all is IMO.

    -Ann

    • Ann… Your ‘ice’ comment is well frozen in the 10 years of comment threads ….. but your “time’ comment may be the one thing no one is applying. Time is a river … so begin where Time halts.

      just a thought on the fly.

      • OS2,

        Thanks for the reply. I didn’t figure I was the first to think of the other end of the thermodynamic spectrum. Not sure I catch your drift about my time comment. Could you please elaborate a bit more on your last sentence, or was that just a thought provoker?

        I do like the idea that “where” could refer to a point in time, and generally speaking with regards to water. Not sure how it would be applied to finding a wwwh. If you have any ideas please share.

        I had also given some thought to halt. And I am sure thee has been much discussion on this as well. Briefly, instead of “stop” or “no longer goes there” I thought about “halt who goes there” or halt as in where one does not go. “Did you go in?” “No, I halted.” So where warm waters halt could be where warm waters do not go, as opposed to where they are. Again, let me know your thoughts! All IMO.

        -Ann

        • PS-

          A better explanation of the remarks on halt is that it can be used as a term meaning to refrain from. As in a gentleman will generally halt and permit ladies to go first. In that case, the gentleman’s halt is not where he has stopped but where he did not go, permitting the lady to pass by that way instead. Hope that makes more sense to those reading. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • In the Shadows, and Ann… the word ‘halt’ seems to carry an abrupt & temporary connotation for me… stop, then go. It relates to TIME. Does it seem so to you too?

            Do you re-experience memories of some past event or situation that causes you to halt (and maybe gasp a little) in current time? Moments when time stopped for you then, and you can still feel it now?

            Consider the halt that arrived in a poem a father sent years after son & father halted at a found first arrowhead. Or a halt that changes you forever, like looking into the eyes of your dog & recognizing not ‘dog’ but ‘life’ An coincidental organic quality of time just like your own. Ask any mother about the time a nurse handed her her first newborn. It’s those moments in time that reveal your humanity to you. FF calls them umbilical.

            Time is our Where, the place where we discover who we are. TIME in TTOTC and the Poem, may have more to tell than we’ve thought about. It is the only thing I can think of that the players may be overlooking.

          • OS2,

            So in trying to understand what you mean, are you saying something along the lines of “to give pause to” or “to cause to pause momentarily?” If that is the case, then yes, I understand your meaning. I would still be unclear of the application. One possibility may be that you are connecting the word halt to the searcher instead of ww. If that is the case I am inclined not to support such a stance. If that is not what you are trying to do I will need further explanation to understand what you may getting at. It is possible that such application could be made to the ww, as in the case of a geyser or an abrupt turn in the flow of a stream or river or even in a seasonal sense. Or (and I just thought of this) are y referring to something akin to what I saw in a movie once )Pirate of the Caribbean perhaps or something similar) where the treasure is hidden in a blow hole and getting to it has to be timed right with the intermittent spouts of water that “halt” when they are drawn back into the hole. And yes, I realize that last sentence could pull at the heart of many a conversation in these threads, While that is certainly a plausible location in terms of what e have been discussing her and time and whatnot, it would certainly be a stretch of the imagination to suppose that is what FF meant. Again, I realize how the previous sentence pulls at the heart of many a conversation. I do feel there are eerie similarities between the chase and other (fictional) treasure hunts portrayed in pop culture. This certainly could be another. Would be very interesting of this were the case! All IMO of course. And if I happen to be way off, please clarify for me. Thank you.

            -Ann

          • I dont have the answers Ann, I’m just playing with the idea of TIME. Time is where you can be in two places at once…. like being in your easy chair while ‘being there’ … Flywater.

            Suppose HOB is ‘home’ only during the spawning season or a nesting season, or a hatching. It could be ‘home’ only at a certain time or during certain conditions.

          • OS2,

            I see. Thought maybe you had a specific application in mind. Not nad thinking. I find in trying to figure any of this out that whatever we do to get to a positive end result, we must have a reason for doing so, as opposed to saying just because we can. So when I read about an idea I always wonder what is the potential application, and why would that be something FF would want us to do. Your thoughts d beg the question, is time a factor? Let me know if you think of anything else.

            -Ann

  57. JDA,

    Doesn’t the word “idea” in the comment clarify a thought process that IS of an opinion?
    You believe certain words; such as; “I think” should be added or “imo” must be added when many other words mean the same. Such as; idea… An opinion or belief.
    Are those words or wordings the only choices we have?
    So, I’m curious to the fact that certain words are or should be acceptable vs.
    other words meaning the same, that are not.
    Or even if we need to use an ending comment to justify the same principles.

    End of commentary. Or should that ending only be… Imo?

  58. Caller: “ Hello Mr Obvious. I got a problem. My friends and I have ideas for WWWH. There are three of us. We all have different ideas for WWWH. Each of us swears we got it right.”

    Mr Obvious: “Stop right there caller. It’s possible you are all correct. Forrest never said there is only one WWWH. The answers he already knows. There’s an S after ANSWER isn’t there.”

    Caller: “Say what? Are you kidding me?”

    Mr Obvious: “You heard right caller. I’m serious as a heart attack. They ALL lead to the treasure, IMHO. I can even think of a fourth that could work.”

    Caller: “Thanks Mr Obvious, you’re confusing the bejiggies out of me, but you’re the best.”

  59. If Forrest spent 15 years concocting this poem and we know where he goth these words “Where warm waters Halt”, do you believe that it simply refers to just some hot spring, a geyser or could we use a little more Imagination? Perhaps it is a metaphor dreamed up to reveal “His Church in the Mountains” A place say for his Last Supper and something a little bit more spiritual, a place where he remembers a reunion of some kind after nearly dying of cancer or harrowing escape from death like his plane crash, give ff credit for conceiving a spiritual message to future generations because this cost him a lot of worries, sweat, and tears.

    “Life is a journey, happines it the pot” The message is not complicated nor sublime, it is spiritual IMO and when the final searcher stands over it, this message will be apparent otherwise we all are chasing tales and fables.

    TT

  60. A couple things: first, didn’t Forrest once say (and I’m paraphrasing here), “ask a child where warm waters halt?” My WWWH employs a simple, child-like ploy of saying the opposite of what is meant; in other words, “where warm waters halt” becomes “where cold waters begin.” So my solve begins at the headwaters (WCWB) of the Arkansas River (since I’m one of those crazy Colorado searchers) immediately west of Leadville, CO, the elevation of which, as we all know, is 10,200′. Leadville also qualifies as my HoB because of its connection to the “Unsinkable Molly Brown,” who lived there for a time. And what was the discussion I read somewhere about “ships that go down but never sink” (or something like that)?
    Second, I just looked up the word “Halt” on Wikipedia after reading a previous blogger’s comment on Dec. 8 about train stations in England being called “Halts” and was surprised to learn one definition of “halt” is “a small railway station.” The railroad finally reached Leadville in 1890, following the Arkansas River, replacing the old overland stage route (a possible “riches new and old”?) and there are a number of small “whistlestops” along the route. And when I saw Forrest’s scrapbook about the repaired clay pot, the cracks and staples immediately reminded me of the map symbol for a train route: a single line with small hash marks.
    Looking forward to next fall and submitting my “solve” and all my other clues that have been driving me nuts until I have a chance to get BOTG again!

    • Capt. Bligh,
      Your comment, “in other words, “where warm waters halt” becomes “where cold waters begin.” is spot on IMO. The rest of it sounds like a nice vacation. But what do I know. You must first go as far up the river to where the cold water Ends. Warm water begins. That’s WWWH.

      • Personal disclaimer: I live relatively close to Leadville, and I really have no plans to search in any other state than Colorado, so my focus is only on a potential Colorado solve. All my best to searchers in other states, but as the old saying goes, “stick to what you know,” so my only interest is Colorado. No interest in driving hundreds of miles to look in other states that I’m not familiar with. And I’m fine with that.
        As for going up the Arkansas to find “warm waters,” the “headwaters” is a fairly large watershed area west of Leadville, near beautiful Turquoise Lake (another one of my “coincidences” that matches up with what I consider “hints” that Forrest keeps offering – all those mentions of “turquoise.”) So to me, maybe there doesn’t need to be any “warm waters,” and maybe Forrest was just trying to disguise his clue referring to the headwaters of the Arkansas – at least that’s my personal rationale for believing that WWWH doesn’t really have anything to do with warm waters, but instead, refers to the source of the cold waters of the Arkansas River. I realize this may hamstring my solve in other searchers’ views, but again, I’m not obsessed enough to travel to other states to look in places I know next to nothing about. I’m having enough fun working on my primary solve in the Leadville area!
        Anyway, when I first read his poem, the first thing that jumped out at me was “home of Brown” which I immediately associated with Leadville, because of Molly Brown, as I mentioned earlier. Then as I continued trying to marry the poem to my search area, many things seemed to fall in place that make absolute sense to me (confirmation bias is always a possibility for everyone, until the treasure is found, so I accept that.)
        I have a strong representation for “no place for the meek” and an associated “put in,” as well as an unbelievable “the end is ever drawing nigh” that also relates to “as I have gone alone in there.” (Pictures to come with my solve this fall will blow you away!)
        “Take it in the canyon down,” for me, refers to the Arkansas River, even though it meanders through open flat areas immediately south of Leadville, but roars through other whitewater sections further downstream, where there definitely would be no paddling up, and consists of heavy loads (large boulders) and water high (churning whitewater.) I suppose a flatlander might consider these areas “canyons.”
        I also have three things in my immediate search area that could easily be associated with “wise,” as well as an in-your-face hint at “tired.” And after this search season, I’ll explain my “worth the cold” and “in the wood.” Still searching for my “blaze” and can see a couple places I want to check, but I’m having trouble accessing the east side of the Arkansas (“not far, but too far to walk” maybe?)
        Let’s just leave it at that. I love winter, but I’m chomping at the bit for summer to get here! Good luck to everyone!
        -Cap’n Bill

  61. Nice lead and lucky you are to be close enough to look. Don’t have high hopes for a recovery as it may miss vital information. I am not saying don’t go. But is your solve married to the poem?

  62. I along with others have searched that area for years. The best solve I have had led me to My Blaze, the Angel of Shavano. She fit perfectly with “heavy loads and water high”

    Good Luck

    • I’m not that far south, and it isn’t in the Browns Canyon area either. Haven’t heard or read any other posts that reference my search area, so I guess I’ve got that going for me. Hurry summer!!!

  63. Not sure if this has been discussed before.

    Has Forrest ever said that searchers need to physically go to WWWH to begin the search? I know he has said begin the search with WWWH but that does not necessary imply physically going to the location.

    Just pondering during the off season.

      • Thanks for the reply Aaron. Just wondering if WWWH is not accessible by car and neither is down the valley and the BOTG begins Below the home of Brown

        • And maybe Fenn’s comment about the little girl from India, “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.” supports this idea because after clue two you have to be BOTG.

    • Hello Kurt,
      I won’t offer an opinion, draw you’re own conclusion:

      05/18/2017 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQcLGRdSI38&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk&index=23

      Fenn: You’re going to have to figure out the clues. Go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that. If you can decipher the clues, you can find that treasure chest.

      Also, from an interview conducted Nov. 4, 2019 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWSBhUjD-x4

      @26:10, Fenn: You start your chase by getting in your car and going to the first clue…that’s what starts it…if you don’t know where warm waters halt, you don’t know anything.

      • @26:10, Fenn: You start your chase by getting in your car and going to the first clue…that’s what starts it…if you don’t know where warm waters halt, you don’t know anything.

        Seems very plausible that one could, in fact, drive to the location of the first clue.

        I can drive to the first clue in my latest solve (looking forward to summer) but I wanted to start considering other WWWH’s.

    • Kurt-
      Like so many hints Forrest has given us I think this one is debatable.
      He has certainly told us to start at the first clue many, many times in the past 9.5 years but whether he means “physically” start at that clue is not clear.
      The closest he has said that to my knowledge was on Jenny’s site in answer to a question from Joseph:
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/order-of-clues-and-hints-featured-question-with-forrest/

      But in my opinion his comments lean the other way…that the first couple of clues can be identified on a map…so if that’s the case then once you have identified the first two clues on a map why couldn’t you just physically start at the second clue?

      On the other hand read what he said to Curtis on Jenny’s site in response to a question about whether or not he followed the path described in the poem when he hid the chest…
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

      • Dal, you asked “But in my opinion his comments lean the other way…that the first couple of clues can be identified on a map…so if that’s the case then once you have identified the first two clues on a map why couldn’t you just physically start at the second clue?”

        That is a valid point unless of course unless either the closes parking spot to the treasure requires one to walk past the first two clues, or the only path to drive to the correct parking location brings the searcher past the first two clues.

      • Dal – one reading of all the ATFs, including those you cited above, would make it *seem* that the search is point to point, on foot, starting at the first clue. Which is very hard to imagine. I personally want to drive down the canyon and “put in” below the HOB. We know that the clues are contiguous and consecutive. One interpretation is that there is only one way to the treasure chest; you can’t approach it from any other direction. For instance, you can’t start at Norris Geyser Basin and end up around Madison Junction, or the Firehole Falls or whatever. Because you can get to both those places from a multitude of other directions. I think this dilemma is one of the crux points of the winning solve. Is WWWH out in the woods?? Do you park and walk to a WWWH and the trip is linear from there? Or do you drive down the one way road to the HOB and put in. I see that it goes either way, but I’m starting to come around to Aaron’s POV.

      • Hi Dal, new poster librarylady here. Nice to meet you, in a manner of speaking (or posting). You have such a great website here, thank you!
        Since FF has said the clues form a map of sorts to the treasure location, and you should start with finding WWWH, I assumed that you would at first be figuring out the clues and following them on a map or Google Earth first, but I would think you’d then follow them physically too, to get to the treasure. But I interpret the line “there is no other way” to mean “no other way to get from WWWH to the treasure”. Otherwise, It seems like once you knew where the treasure was–you could find a way to come from another direction, and still get to the treasure location. . Unless all the clue locations from WWWH all the way to the treasure location are located on the same dead-end road or trail, with no intersecting roads or trails? I sure hope not bc that’s not true in my solve, and everything else, including almost all of FF’s other quotes, and many hints in books and scrapbooks, fit so well!

    • IMO, presence is required at every clue because we are supposed to enjoy and understand the places and people in the general area of the search.

      If you correctly identify the first two clues from home and then set out to where you think is clue number three bypassing one and two, you might be missing some wisdom that can be gained at the first two places. Remember at the end we might need wisdom.

      Most video games don’t let you go straight to level 3 without proving yourself first at levels 1 and 2.

      • I’m not convinced that at the end we need wisdom. But I am convinced
        that wisdom is associated with ability to find the blaze.

        • So what about that poor redneck?
          Level playing field for all?
          He might stand a chance if this was a rodeo.
          Sounds like a clubhouse with a pretty exclusive membership.
          He don’t qualify cuz he don’t know the secret handshake or password. What’s the poor sap to do?

    • To all engaged in this particular question-

      Thank you Kurt for asking. This question ties in to what I’ve been asking about the search area and hide duration. Is it coincidental that FF says the search begins when you get in your car and also suggests that we begin at the first clue namely WWWH? Or is it possible that for FF WWWH are located where he possibly began, in his car at home in Santa Fe? I give the obvious possibility of Agua Fria in Santa Fe for a potential WWWH. Knowing where FF began the Chase and how long it took him to complete the Chase surely would be helpful in discovering the area of everyone’s interest. Did he do it in a one day round trip from and back to his home in Santa Fe? Or, did he hide the chest on a day trip while up near YNP on business or leisure? I am reminded here as well, now that I am typing these questions out , something about ending up where you began. Not sure the exact quote but if we are to end up back where we started couldn’t FF have been referring to a one day round trip from and back to his home? Just a hypothesis. I welcome further thoughts on all of this but I am more interested in the reasoning behind the thoughts. All IMO.

      -Ann

      • Hi Ann, librarylady here again. I think you, meaning the searcher, are to start your quest, journey, or BOTG search, at the locaton of WWWH. I don’t think he was telling us just to get in the car and go there. Your method of transportation to get there would depend on what worked best for you. But it does seem he is recommending that you’d want to have a car available to you to use once you head out from there–he doesn’t say one that you drove all the way or one you rented after you reached the general area. Other than that I think he deliberately chose to be vague–the round trip is from where he parked his car but we don’t know how far the place he parked it is from WWWH, unless we figure out where WWWH is and then figure out where the other clues lead to. Then presumably you could figure out the rest as far as where he would have parked (to have been able to make the round trip from the parked car twice in one afternoon. I suppose WWWH could be near his home but equally it could be in another state. IMO it would be hard to prove when he left home, and hard to figure out how far he went before finding the right WWWH first.
        I think it’s important to do what FF suggests in several quotes found here: https://www.chasingfennstreasure.com/fenn-quotes-page-3
        He makes it pretty clear you should read the book (TTOTC), then read the poem numerous times and think about it, then go back and read the book over again and again. He says there are hints in the book. After reading it numerous times I believe that is true –I have found quite a few of them (at least what IMO are clues). Some are less subtle than others and really helped me confirm what I believe is the right WWWH. The book also helps because it talks about parts of the Rocky Mountain states that are special and important to him, which can help you figure out the general area of WWWH also. Be careful though, a lot of searchers assume the places that are mentioned most obviously are where the treasure is, but IMO those are rabbit holes. Why would FF make it so obvious? Again in IMO, anything that obvious is not a “subtle hint” as FF says.
        All that being said, I have to be honest and say that I didn’t read the book for a while–in fact not until after I figured out a likely WWWH, which led me to what I believe are the places referred to in the other clues in the poem. I sort of “fell into” (no pun intended) the solution to WWWH, accidentally. I read other’s posts and websites and learned of some of the areas FF refers to in his stories. Some of them are near a place I was familiar with from a previous family vacation back in the early 2000’s, and which I loved. Thought it would be cool if the treasure happened to be hidden somewhere in that area so I picked that area to search. After starting with a possible WWWH that many others have started with, I decided it was the wrong one because the clues didn’t work that well, but in the end it got me close enough that I found what is IMO the right WWWH, because after that the next few clues fell right into place (and then there were some times when I went off on wild goose chases because I misinterpreted some clues–but eventually I found and followed them all (IMO again) on Google Earth. So it was at that point I read the TTOTC book, and eventually the other two, and found hints that seem to confirm, in IMO, that I’m in the right place. However, if I hadn’t lucked out and started my online search in an area near the right place, I don’t think I’d have ever found it without the hints in the book. I think that’s why FF says to read the book first, then the poem and then the book again. So as I can tell you have read the poem pretty thoroughly many times, I’d suggest the book next if you haven’t read it already. Not a bad idea to see what hints other searchers have already noticed in the book–it helps to get an idea of how to spot them even if you aren’t sure if some of their interpretations of the hints are correct.

        • librarylady,

          Thank you for the thoughtful post. I haven’t really read the poem all that well or closely. I have a knack for scrutiny to detail though coming from a science/math background. I am still on the fence about Chase methodologies. Sometimes how and why are just as important as what.

          I do not have a copy of the book, nor do I intend on getting a copy any time soon. They are on the level of college course books as far as cost! But, I do have someone helping fill me in on the books and willing to answer questions I may have or search the books for relevant information to questions I may have. For that I am grateful. I am not as invested in the Chase as you may find others to be. I just enjoy solving puzzles/problems, and this one certainly is interesting. I guess I am hoping to help someone more invested confirm their solve or perhaps assist in coming up with the correct solve. Sometimes all that is needed is a renewal of interest and a fresh perspective. And unexamined truths are not worth holding.

          I do have some ideas about certain aspects of the poem and the Chase and you can read about those in my previous posts or feel free to ask me about them directly. I have no qualms in sharing my thoughts. All IMO.

          -Ann

  64. We know that WWWH is the first clue. My question is, are the 9 clues in chronological order in the poem, as in, each successive clue follows after the other as you read the poem?

    • Jonathan-
      Like nearly all Forrest quotes…
      He often repeats his major points with slight variations each time.
      He does not use the word “chronological” so you’ll have to see if the word “consecutive” holds the same meaning for you.

      “…joseph, you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized. f”
      (12/11/14)
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/order-of-clues-and-hints-featured-question-with-forrest/

      and another version here in a Loren Mills interview very early in the chase:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oLzi4fpw_A
      Starts at about 27mins into the video.

      You could help yourself greatly by learning how to use the fabulous “quote” resource at:
      http://www.tarryscant.com

      • Dal – in the Voice of America interview, where Forrest talked about looking down when you get to the 9th clue, didn’t he also say that the clues are “chronological”? I apologize if I’m mistaken but I’m almost certain I remember that.

          • My transcript of Voice of America interview of Forrest recorded by Dal (September 2019), third audio beginning at 0:02:

            Penelope: “What do you want to give people? It’s possible that this treasure may not be found … yet. It may be found 50 years from now. We may not be around.”

            FF: “Well, the Rosetta Stone was buried 2000 years before it was found. It’s possible my treasure chest could be found this afternoon, or it could be a hundred years, or 500 years, who knows? It’s not predictable. It’s not in a dangerous place, and … it’s HARD to find – deliberately hard to find, but it certainly isn’t impossible. You have to go back to the poem. You have to find out where the first clue is: where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue, and then take it from there. The clues are chronological after that. One leads to the other leads to another and … when you get to the ninth clue, look down because you’re where the treasure chest is.”

          • has anybody ever wondered why he said. “It’s possible my treasure chest could be found this afternoon”?
            Why the afternoon? Couldn’t we find it earlier or do we have a distance to travel that will take us to the afternoon? Why didn’t he say, It’s possible my treasure chest could be found “today”? Can’t someone start at WWWH around 5:00 am and find the chest in the morning? Or is this looking into every word f says to precisely? Again, if a searcher is not travelling far, they will say that it’s just a comment, just what is “possible”. But f is careful with his words, something to think about. Maybe we are to walk a long distance.

          • Hey poisonivey, very interesting catch. One thought – did Forrest say this in the morning? If so, then it could just mean that the treasure hadn’t been found that morning, so it meant if it was going to be found that day it would be found in the afternoon.

            Or, and this is incredible confirmation bias kicking in – it could be a subtle hint to WWWH IMO. But I tend to dislike and reject the more artfully vague hints, there is just too much ambiguity and too much room for interpretation. I am looking for confidence.

  65. Some questions about other searchers WWWH conclusions- I have found a very interesting solution but am wary for several reasons:
    1. There is no way I would have been able to solve this just using GE. I found the solution in a book describing the area. It was plain as day on that map, but not so much on GE. In fact, I probably never would have found it. It is named but the actual feature that makes it WWWH would not be apparent. Are you able to solve for your WWWH using GE?

    2. The relationship to the “word that is key” + WWWH. I believe I have found the “word that is key” which is not a poem word but is in the poem. I’ve heard whispers that this nails down WWWH. In my case it directs me to the general area but the area is fairly large. Does your “word that is key” absolutely confirm your WWWH or does it simply put you in the general area?

    3. Is your Canyon Down obvious? Mine is. There is only one option so I consider these clues bundled. Once you find WWWH then it’s obvious how to proceed with the next clue. I feel this could be confirmed when Forrest says people have solved the first two clues. Once you solve the first one, you can’t help but solve the second and I can see how it would be easy to keep going past the rest (although I haven’t gotten much farther yet).

    I also posted on Odds and Ends about the possible relationship between WWWH and the rest of the clues if we are to believe that the people within either 200 or 500 feet of the treasure were that close after solving WWWH or one of the other first 4 clues. Could a searcher reverse engineer the ninth clue using only this information. And what does this indicate about the general area around your WWWH?

    All IMO

    • Surf,

      An attempt to give some sort of response……

      1. So I don’t know that one can “solve for your WWWH using GE?” Seems like you’d have to know what you were looking for before turning to GE. Does that make sense? On the same token, could you scour areas on GE looking for WWWHs? Probably. I don’t think that would be an effective method. I would be interested to know what you meant by “It was plain as day on that map.” I assume you are referring to a specific map. you don’t have to share which map but I would be curious as to what prompted use of a specific map.

      2. I think the answer to this question would depend on what is interpreted as “word that is key.” It is possible to answer yes or no depending on what someone considers to be the word that is key. There is an entire thread on that subject alone and not all thoughts point to a WWWH. Your remarks about your word that is key being in the poem but not a poem word is curious. I’d be interested to hear more about that as well. I think most have focused on a particular word or set of words based on FF’s quotes regarding a word in the poem that will help more than others, as opposed to word that is key or keyword.

      3. Again, the answer to this will likely depend on one’s WWWH and the surrounding area. I have three areas of interest. Only one has an obvious canyon for the time being. The other two not so much. But in those cases HOB may help. And I can’t speak for everyone, but there is a belief that only so many of the clues can be figured out from home before BOTG become necessary.

      4. I am familiar with your other post. I don’t know about reverse engineering the entire Chase. I am bad with the quotes but I am pretty sure FF has said something to the effect of not being able to see the blaze without BOTG. Of course, there is also the open question of just what exactly are the nine clues? FF hasn’t named them as far as I know.

      Hope this helps. All IMO.

      -Ann

      • Hi Ann,
        Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

        Yes, I had seen what I think may be WWWH on the map first but it didn’t leap out at me. It wasn’t until I was reading a book about the area, in that book there was a much more detailed map about this particular feature and I saw relationships that I didn’t see on GE.

        Things that make me confident about this – 1. the word that is key points me in this general direction 2. there is another interesting hint in the poem that is not a person, place or thing. Rather many elements of the poem have a relationship that also could indicate my WWWH – but I am wary this may be confirmation bias.

        The fact that I personally would not have come to this conclusion without a separate map makes me skeptical. Also, another very curious thing. After 10 years of blogging and treasure hunt reports, I can not find 1 reference to this feature anywhere on the internet in relation to Fenn’s Treasure. So either I’m way off, or I have discovered the real WWWH that others do not want to discuss because they know for sure it is correct. Again, I am extremely wary of confirmation bias on this. I simply don’t know the meaning of this but I would assume, even if correct someone somewhere would have posted this information. I can even find reference to my word that is key, but this particular feature is not mentioned anywhere. Odd.

        One more thing on the word that is key, it is my belief that when Forrest refers to a word that is key he is not talking about a poem word IMO. And, there are words in the poem that are more important than others, but this is different than the word that is key. For better or worse, it is a word you cannot unsee IMO. I am locked into a particular area for the forseeable future (before solving any clues).

        You say you are looking at 3 areas of interest – without going into details, I’m curious how you landed on those areas. That was the hardest part for me prior to finding the word that I think is key. You can land anywhere in any of the 4 states and come up with very strong solves without knowing for sure you’re even close.

        I think we differ on terms of BOTG – I will not venture out until I have an end to end solve. I think that is the only way, unless you plan on doing dozens of trips to the same area and unfortunately I’m not close enough for that to be feasible.

        As far as reverse engineering the poem – I think what I’m really trying to do is increase my confidence and see if there are any hints that can help to eliminate more and more areas. I have 30 years experience in a very specialized field that may help me with figuring out how Forrest has spent the last 10 years fooling us. Or maybe it will work against me. Either way, I feel like I’m 10 years behind many others and am trying to close the gap as quickly as possible before the winter is over.

        • If I may Surf, I hear a lot of outside the poem ways to solve for WWWH. I would caution against this. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just saying if you didn’t have these outside sources, could you still get your WWWH?
          Also, we have discussed the word that is key extensively. All I will say is that if it is something so important to a solve, it must be in the poem. Since all we need is the poem.
          Also, it is wise to think that f has not put too much info out there in relation to the final spot. It’s for us to find by solving the poem.
          Since the word that is key is also an outside the poem comment, are you sure that you are confident that this word will give the correct WWWH? And are you sure that “nailed” down refers to getting the first clue exactly correct, or does it have something to do with “nails”?
          In policing your own solve, try this. Get the poem, and only the poem. Now explain your solve only using the poem and nothing else. If you have to inject an outside source to explain any of it, you might want to think twice. If you have a correct solve, then in the end, all you need to explain your solve will be the poem. With only the poem, can you describe your whole solve to me? How you came about that solve, and how the poem references your spot? The first time you say that you found a word that was key in some other book or whatever, I would stop you right there. Only the poem, that is the best way to police your own solve. Hope you get what I’m trying to say. If you do a write up, I should only need the poem in front of me and be able to follow what you are saying. That, IMO, would be a good solve. The confidence and support would then come after the entire poem solve.

          • Hey poisonivey, appreciate the feedback. I agree with you about needing only the poem, though for me I definitely don’t know enough about rocky mountain geography, so I would definitely need a map too, but I understand your sentiment, everything you need for solving should come from the poem – no special knowledge needed.

            I only have WWWH/canyon down solved (possibly) and am doing my due diligence before moving on to the other clues. I spent the last 6 months or so just reading the blogs and scrapbooks and others theories with the thought that after 10 years others should have made much progress, but it’s hard to see any agreement, unless it is in the whispers. I have been lucky to find what may be valuable hints in those whispers but who knows for sure 🙂

            Regarding the “word that is key” – it is not a poem word, however it is derived by using the poem and nothing else. I own TTOTC and TFTW but have not started reading them but will soon. I read scapbooks if others mention they have found hints in them, but mostly focus on the poem for right now.

            Even without reading the books, I know of two huge hints in TTOTC that could work to confirm my “word that is key” which in turn pointed me in the direction of WWWH and the rest of the clues. In fact, these hints in TTOTC make me pause because they are almost too obvious. This morning I had a realization that might explain these obvious hints – I suspect not even Forrest in his infinite wisdom could predict the trajectory of the treasure hunt and maybe that would explain more obvious hints in a book that might only have been sold in bookstore in New Mexico.

            Again, it’s so dangerous to come up with a solve and then look for confirming hints but that is really all we have. We are wired to confirm our beliefs. Knowing this is a natural human tendency, at some point you have to take the leap knowing you may be wrong but pursuing the possibility until a better one comes along. For better or worse, my word that is key cannot be unseen and it would be hard to see possibilities in other states right now – but maybe that is the entire purpose?

            Instead of confirming hints, maybe it is better to use the excluding hints, it seems that is a familiar approach to frequent posters like Zap.

            I’m curious about your word that is key and how it is supported by the word “few.” I will have to ponder that for a bit, though if it is intended to hint at clue 9, I may have to put a pin into it for another 7 clues!

            Thanks poisonivey, I really appreciate your thoughts.

    • Surf,
      1. You should only need the poem in the end. But to find WWWH, you answer that in your second to last sentence. Clues aside, if the poem puts an “x” on a map, then it would be logical to see this “x” on a map and reverse engineer how to get there. Your start spot would be WWWH, and many of f’s stories would support that spot.
      2. My word that is key is in the poem. It’s placement in the poem is the answer, supported by the word “few”. It’s part of the last clue and has nothing to do with WWWH. If you have a word, and it helped in finding a start spot, you have to research it. Why is usually the best question. I can’t help you with your solve, I know nothing about it. You have to stick to your guns, or find another way.
      3. Yes, my canyon down is obvious, but remember, you can reverse engineer from the “x” on a map. In this scenario, your “path” is what is obvious. If you have a path, it’s not so much in solving clues but finding them.
      Finally, the comment of the 200 and 500 footers needs to be addressed with caution. We don’t know if f is talking distance or elevation, so don’t hang to much on it. In the end you will know the actual answer, but to hang a solve on thinking just distance is asking for trouble. For one thing, let’s say that you leave a trail and go 200′ to the chest. You could possibly be walking right past the chest in this scenario. Have to remember, if it’s a distance, we must bend down to get the chest. F is 6’1″, that means from the trail, it would be 193 or 194 feet away, not 200. You walk 194′, then bend down 6′ to the chest.
      In the end, you have to decide what info to address and not address. The way this chase is constructed, the answers could be anything. Off the wall or just plain simple, we don’t know. It is always safe if you put all your attention into solving the poem. You can solve all the other stories and comments after you solved the poem. Or at least you should be able to if you are right. Good luck

    • Surfthesky
      I have a similar dilemma. Does your book that contains a map have a horse and cabin on the cover? F says there’s a good map to use and I believe there is something special about it however I’m also weary of confirmation bias.
      I always get confused with what he actually said that a person needs: the poem and a good map, or poem/ and book etc. I personally believe there is a particular, perhaps obscure, map that is more helpful than others.
      Also TToTc has so many references to other books, authors, prominent historical figures, and locations that he makes relevant. If it’s just the poem and a map that we need (and should use exclusively) than why write a Whole book with clues and hints? Just IMO

      • Hey Matt – the particular book that I am using doesn’t have a horse or cabin on the cover.

        FF says GE and/or a good map. So is GE good enough? Again, for me it wasn’t. I was familiar with what I currently think WWWH is on the map from just poking around on GE, but it didn’t click until I looked at a better map of the area.

        I guess my questions for other searchers are these and I’ll go first:
        1. Did you figure out your WWWH using only GE? – I used GE to put me in the area then used a map in a book to understand what was happening at the spot.
        2. Did you use the book to figure out WWWH or did you just use the Poem or a combination of both? – I used the Poem + Word That is Key + GE/Other Map. I have not read the books yet, but I can think of two things that jump out at me from just a cursory glance at TTOTC that could be used to confirm the location and name of my WWWH.
        3. Have you seen your WWWH mentioned elsewhere: here, other blogs, or even in the books/scrapbooks? – I have not seen my WWWH anywhere else, which in my mind either means it’s either a terrible solution or it is THE solution! LOL – in all seriousness though, the fact that my WWWH hasn’t been published anywhere that I can find does give me pause. After 10 years, I would have to assume someone would eventually post it. I would like to think it hasn’t been posted because everyone knows it’s correct and doesn’t want to tip it, but I am far too skeptical to lean towards that reason. I have found at least two mentions of my word that is key on the internet, which at this point in the game I find to be much more crucial.

        All in my noob opinion.

        • surfthesky;

          For me, “In the wood” led me to my WWWsH. I found an obscure definition of “in the wood” that pointed to a geographical area in Wyoming. From there, it was pretty easy to find my WWWsH. I COULD have solved WWWsH first, and later found out about the connection to “in the wood”, but it just worked out the way it did.

          So to answer your question the solving came first, then the map and / or Google Earth. Once I had solved the “in the wood” connection I ordered a topo map, and then looked at GE as back-up.

          Once I had found my WWWsH, I then found two things in TToTC that supported my location. This support was a physical description and a mileage description. Sorry, I can’t say more, but it is there if you read closely enough. JMO – JDA

          • Hi JDA & Surfthesky,

            Surf, let me stick my two cents in since you said you used the “word that is key” to help with Wwwh. To me the place that Forrest is referring to as where warm waters halt can not be seen on GE, but the place it is located can. Plus the word that is key that I have found is in the TTOTC book, and it can help with the “location” and “what is” wwwh.
            A lot of searchers believe that a hot springs is the answer, but I don’t believe that is Forrest’s intent, for the answer to that solve, at all.

            Good luck,
            Bur

          • Hello Bur. I’m curious to your statement about Wwwh cannot be seen on GE, but the location is. In what way is Wwwh known if it is not shown or named, but the location is on GE? I don’t ask of your Wwwh, but how you determined such area to be Wwwh.

          • Hi pdenver,
            Let’s see, – if you understood what I have come to find out just “what is” wwwh, that question you asked would be better understood. But just to throw this out there- it is covered from satellite view.
            Also it did and does now have a name, but the name now is different from it’s first name, which would also help with the what it is part.

            Sorry, but I can’t give up anymore info for this clue. Hope what I wrote helps some.

            Thanks for your question.

            Bur

          • Thank you for responding and explaining your thoughts in a guided fashion, Bur. I appreciate that you have done so.

  66. This year I’m taking the family to Mammoth hot springs and Thermopolis. Two warm waters halts should help my odds.

  67. Seeks – i’m certainly lacking in my ability and willingness to over-think things as much as i am unconvinced of any ‘certainty of location before-hand’ given that the combination of both seem too much of a paradox for my wee brain to comprehend.. nor do i believe that “why” = Wyoming and so forth, but the ‘keyword’ may lend more credence toward elimination of certain States rather than exactly defining just one, imho

    and given my allergies to complex rabbit-holes and unfortunate state of adult immaturity, i’ll simply refer to this comment;
    “I think kids have an advantage [finding the treasure]. Don’t ask me to explain that.”

    Bob#302 – yes, i concur that 10200ft seems specifically abnormal (which i married to Mt Washburn YSP for my BOTG adventure) as 5000ft strikes me as general exercise in Swedish Rounding up/down – albeit maybe the former is a humorous red-herring born from Forests’ mischievous sense of humour ..but then again perhaps not

    re: “..Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts” and “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” ….what if these comments refer to geographical fault-lines?

    The FD – agreed that “one can’t solve for wwwh with just that line of the poem”.. but given you’re a seasoned searcher, i won’t assume you believe that either
    ..and yes, “consecutive” seems to contradict a circular approach, as pdenver has wisely and generously referenced/linked, so there’s another contradictory ff comment to add to the already over-weight conundrum bin of mystery.
    ..and yes, the first stanza is enigmatic to the point of worthy analysis, given it’s the intro and first words spoken, insomuch as to suggest a secret back-story – your interp. is appreciated here
    ..but no, comments 2-9 are not offered by myself nor ff as “clues” imho, they’re simply comments that point us toward the beginning of the puzzle
    ..and no, my middle name is certainly not Einstein, so i’ll humbly leave to complex mathematical equations in your more than capable hands

    Geysergirl – unless i’m sadly mistaken, Forest states that TToTC provides “hint/s” only – but the poem and a “good map” or perhaps “the right map” even? – now there’s certainly something that searchers can viably sink their practical teeth into imho

    Lisa – yes!! …just yes 🙂

    • CH – you are correct in your comment to me BUT lol, so was my comment above:
      “And remember, Fenn repeats over and over (paraphrasing) that everything we need to find the chest is in the poem with HINTS to the clues in the book TTOTC. 🙂

    • Hobbit,

      But a paradox Is not what it Is.

      The warning simple says the path [ being the clues, all of them, imo ] will not be direct unless we know of the location [ where they clues are at ] beforehand.

      You made a list of comments that actually talked about WWsH by its general named clue… I simply added that, to discover the correct WWsH in the correct spot, it seems we need to know where to look… rather than… only decipher what WWsH is.

      Example; WWsH; a lake… LOL big deal, which lake in which state in which county on which property…. ?

      You can look for WWsH until your blue in the face… some may get lucky and hit it with a dart [ out of the many ]
      However, if confidence gets us there… would it be great to know where “there” is first and foremost?
      Canada being shot down took out half of the search area.
      Land locking for states eliminated many adjoining states folks were searching early on.
      Would it surprise you that something mentioned in the book or poem would explain where the location is-?- before deciphering any clue?
      I mean [for example] IF the idea of certainty meant YSP out of all the land in the RM’s… then the next step would to decipher the first clue within, right?

      LOL.. All the information to *find the chest* is in the poem, right? The nine needed clues to be followed are in the poem, right?
      What gets us to the clues?

      Then again, maybe this is all about having people wander from one WWsH possibility to another…

      • What gets us to the clues?
        I think these lines:

        As I have gone alone in there
        And with my treasures bold,
        I can keep my secret where,
        And hint of riches new and old.

        So why is it that I must go
        And leave my trove for all to seek?
        The answers I already know,
        I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

      • Hi Seeker, Yep, there must be some way to nail down that first clue….. isn’t a clove a nail? And so it starts all over again.

          • Tall,. I think FF plays a lot with language & linguistics; & the etymology & roots of words. Ex: TTOTC’s jacket & text refers to clues, not hints. I am too lazy to verify right now, but I think It was searchers that refined a distinction between the words hint and clue, and FF went along with it … look up the definitions & etymologies of clue, and clove, and many other words.
            In the quote on the gravestone FF changed a Mencken word from plain to homely….. check the geography meanings of plain and vale… maybe too much similarity is too much of a hint or clue.

          • I think whatever they definitions of the words hints and clues are that f gives out is the important aspect of this. Also, that they have different responsibilities.

    • Geysergirl – yes, you’re absolutely correct that hints can help solve clues, but i’spose i’m just a big fan of maps (esp detailed maps) so when Forest mentioned a good map, my eyes instantly lit up.

      Seeks – in response to your paradox statement.. yes and no 🙂

      and yes i agree that it helps to know ‘where’ to look for WWsH as much as ‘what’ WWsH actually is – this is where the keyword might help to localise a start-point, perhaps (maybe) within an understanding of stanza1 (as FD mentioned also) or perhaps even in stanza 6 too. This is why i mentioned “cold” and “wood” in a previous (deleted) comment, as either word could simply define one single state, as could other possible keywords.

      also if the poem was created ‘architecturally’, that’s a process that suggests an order of layers from beginning to end result, and any built procedure can also be reverse engineered – what if that’s what ff meant by the reverse bike comment
      i.e; yes work consecutively forward from WWsH, but reverse engineer back from WWsH to obtain a more defined start point – esp given that there may be a stray clue or two (imho) that are not included in the middle stanzas

      re: “All the information to *find the chest* is in the poem” – i believe there is a back-story to the poem somehow (a parallel story of sorts, historically or otherwise) and this is a possible interpretation of how a searcher can move with confidence, as opposed to discovering the first few clues as an aberration – and i can’t help thinking this hypothetical suggestion might be found in a museum somewhere imho (imho only Dal …IMHO)

      • Hobbit,

        In the physical world, to build something you start at the bottom, right?
        Even when finished the bottom is still the support of everything else… Kinda like the beginning and the end being the same, idea.
        As to the poem… I would think the idea of the backstory gives the support for the clues to be built from. However, I think the twist here might be where the chest lays in wait (call that the finished product) must have the support of WWsH.

        My concern is… What is the story behind WWsH?
        I think WWsH is both the story and the foundation of the poem… The other clues must connect in a way that if the foundation isn’t used probably everything falls apart… Even if you have all the right material.

        Is the backstory idea the glue that holds it all together?
        Or
        Is the physical place of WWsH the true foundation?

        And I’m right back to! What do we need to plan and observe?
        The story of how we get there?
        Or
        How we build off of WWsH?
        I think the major problem in the many failed attempts is folks simply not utilising the foundation of WWsH.

        We can toss consecutive, contiguous, or alphabet soup out there all day… Why did folks leave the poem? AKA.. Left WWsH.

        • I agree with hobbitt about the backstory. Is it historical or otherwise. I’d lean towards historical. That’s in f’s wheelhouse. Also, essentially everything written in the poem is historical being we are a decade out of when this commenced.

          Seeker said- I think WWsH is both the story and the foundation of the poem.
          ——————-
          I think the blaze is both the story and the foundation of the poem.

          • FD,

            Why the blaze vs. the first clue?

            I mean, how would we know anything about the blaze without knowing what WWsH is.

          • Seeker, f said one wouldn’t know if they have the first clue correct until they find the treasure (paraphrased).

            He didn’t say that about the blaze.

            He also said one couldn’t figure out wwwh with just that clue and in the mountains north of Sara Fe (also paraphrased to save space).

            Add in that the finder must be wise to find the blaze. That makes me lean towards there’s an actual, objective answer to the blaze mystery.

            An actual, objective answer, to me, would act like a foundation and keeping in mind the past tense If the blaze line.

            Just because f said one shouldn’t look for the blaze first doesn’t necessarily mean that the poem’s foundation won’t reveal the blaze and allow one to continue on the consecutive clue path.

          • But, FD,
            To figure out what a backstory idea should be… Wouldn’t the imply the clue we’re told we need or we don’t have anything? The clue that is needed first before looking for or at later clues?
            The clue that is needed to find the blaze??? Because it would be a miracle to find the blaze without that clue?

            What good is the idea of a backstory (to help with the clues) if we’re not even sure the blaze is mentioned in the poem or only found on site?

          • Seeker,

            The backstory in the poem could simply point to something in the correct starting area where one could easily find the correct wwwh. This satisfies your concern.

            I guess you can flip a coin on whether the blaze is mentioned in the poem or not. I gave my reasons for why I think it is. You didn’t give any either way.

            I don’t think it necessarily takes a miracle to find the blaze before wwwh. I gave reasons why. I think the aha moment is realizing that you already found the blaze.

          • FD,

            I think the blaze is mentioned in the poem and it’s a clue contained in the second stanza.
            Imo… The wise part is to understand you already discovered it when to get to stanza 4

            However, I think most don’t consider or like the idea simply because they feel the need to have the blaze be the last thing “found”

        • Seeker you wrote –

          My concern is… What is the story behind WWsH?
          I think WWsH is both the story and the foundation of the poem…

          Well IMO you are correct. There is a story behind wwwh that makes it perfect for Forrest’s beginning clue, and that story is part of Forrest’s foundation, that started in his younger years and developed throughout his life.

          If you figure this out you will know “where” and “what” the clue wwwh. Of course this is all my opinion.

          Good luck,
          Bur

          • Ok But,

            I’m gonna but you on the spot… It seem obvious the the backstory should come from the stories in the book… But you seem to utilize all the stories. I’m fine with that. The question is; What’s the common denominator?

          • Seeker,

            Forrest puts out that common denominator in the hint(s) in the book and the books stories has nothing to do with this story behind wwwh, and the foundation I’m referring to.

            (But) thanks for asking.

            Bur

          • Seeker and Bur;

            For me, TTOTC is the story of how Forrest grew from a young boy until he was a man. In a way, this is a story of the passage of TIME. There seems to be an “undercurrent” (Pun intended) to these stories. Stories of rivers and streams and waterfalls. Water somehow seems important.

            The poem starts with Where Warm WATERS halt, and near the end a mention of WATER high. f has
            also said that “It is wet”, so we might expect that WATER will be found near or at the place that Indulgence is found.

            One of the three pictures on the front of TTOTC shows young Forrest next to a pipe with flowing WATER.. The next PIC is of the Lewis and Clark expedition, and how they followed a stream that got narrower and narrower at one point. The last PIC is of Forrest during the NAM era (My War for Me – again the WATERfall.)

            Man is made up of mostly WATER. Is the poem the story of MAN, and his connection to WATER? I think that it just might be. Just how I read it all – JDA

          • Hey JDA,

            Yes, the book does seem to tell of Forrest through his years and yes time.

            Seeker was talking about a story behind wwwh. I was just saying that there is one (a story) and this story relates to Forrest’s foundation throughout his years and not so much related to the TTOTC book. To me if you happen to know that story it could help lead to what and where wwwh is. IMO
            The hint in the TTOTC book can get to the story

            Thanks for your comment, and I can see that too.

            Bur

          • Hi Bur;

            Thanks for the response.

            I don’t think that I have spotted the hint in the TTOTC that would point me to a story that would relate to the story behind WWWsH. Hummm??? Looks like I have some reading to do – again – 🙂 JDA

  68. One thing I keep in mind with discerning WWWH is his “marry the poem to a good map” phrase . He says to marry the poem, not to just marry the nine clues – so perhaps the lines of the poem describe your large location (whole map) but the 9 clues describe your specific route starting at WWWH in that large location ending at your destination.

    • This reminds me of a line in TTOTC that always halts me. In the chapter Gold And More:
      “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead…”

      From a grammarly point of view, if he’d meant for searchers to follow the nine clues precisely, wouldn’t it read, “…nine clues WHICH if followed precisely…”?

      The word choice, to me, leaves open the possibility that the poem can be followed somehow, perhaps like a map (instead of trying to isolate and consider only clues).

      • Kate, Seannm,

        I think your both thinking along the same lines.
        There seems to be more to understand then just 9 clues.

        For example and because folks don’t seem to know they may have actually solved the first clue… what is it we need to “learn” about WWsH?
        Just its Geo-place…?

        • Seeker, you stated “For example and because folks don’t seem to know they may have actually solved the first clue… what is it we need to “learn” about WWsH?
          Just its Geo-place…?”

          It’s my thought that we have to learn the geographical area that the WWsH is a part of. Something that it is tied to, and part of the entire poem. Even then it’s still just an educated guess, and we won’t know for sure that we have the right spot until we find the chest.

          • Aaron, that’s a great way to pt it and I think you’re close.

            My thought would be that there’s one ray of sunshine that might shine a beacon for us. F said the finder won’t know (s)he will have the first clue solved before finding the treasure.

            The one ray…maybe we can know the hints point to the correct geographical location that you speak of. Hints could include a possible hint in the poem.

        • So his straightforward thought covers everything? He didn’t in this case, or ever, leave some things unsaid that could be important?

          Nah

          • Cause if one eliminates one factor in a puzzle, that doesn’t eliminate other factors that still can have an effect on certainty beforehand.

            Forrest, in the 2015 answers to six questions, you answered in part,“What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” Is this statement still accurate?
            ~ Thanks, sumbuddy

            Yes sumbuddy, and that is why I recently suggested that searchers consider the what ifs. F

          • FD,

            The 2015 suggestion was related to Dal’s post about (in jest) buying a set of darts for the first clue.
            I would think the important possibly relates to the same.

            IF.. WWsW could be eliminated or skipped by knowing a later clue… Then all supposed nine clues would not be necessary.

            This has been my point for awhile now. Imo, the entire solve revolves around the first clue and a point to point process can allow skipping a clue.
            Can anyone truly be certain if WWsH is eliminated?

          • The entire solve does revolve around the first clue, but that doesn’t necessarily rule out a point to point solve. Knowing the first point is the only way to find the others IMO because they are related to something that ties WWsH to them all. Without solving the poem one can and have hit WWsH with a dart but cannot figure out the third clue without it. It’s hard to figure out the remaining clues even if someone has WWsH, if they haven’t solved the poem, how on earth could they find a later clue without it? Not possible.

          • I agree, Aaron. I have never understood that point that Seeker has tried to make about a point to point solve can skip the wwwh clue.

            Seeker, do you mean the correct solve can skip the wwwh clue regardless if it’s a point to point solve?

          • FD,
            I may have read this wrong, so, what do you mean exactly by; *Cause if one eliminates one factor in a puzzle, that doesn’t eliminate other factors that still can have an effect on certainty beforehand.*

            Because it sounds as if we can eliminate a clue [ example the first clue ], IF we can have certainty with another clues.
            Or better, maybe you can give what you think “location” means?
            The first clue?
            The chest?
            All the clues?
            something else?

            But back to my point; IF it’s possible to by pass any clues [ especially the first ],
            Then one of two things have a flaw;
            You don’t need all the clues {which doesn’t jive with needing all the ingredients, idea.}
            or
            The method of following the clues is flawed.

          • Aaron,

            While I agree with you… we still have a Q&A about reverse engineering, right?
            The question posed by fenn was ~ if you know hoB why be concerned about WWsH?

            If it means we can be certain of a later clue… WWsH doesn’t need reverse engineering or even known of.. right? And if so, it would also mean we can have certainty of the location BY that later clue{s}.

            However, I think the question asked by fenn was more a clever way of saying, we might not be able to solve hoB without WWsH… which you and I seem to be implying.
            Other ATFs seem to help with the same line of thinking; one being; a physical presence is needed after the first few {couple} of clues.
            Which seems to imply the same idea that folks are stumped at clues 3 n 4.
            As well as, this seems to be the place in the poem where they may have “left the poem” Which imo might be how they proceeded, or the method of proceeding.

          • Yes Seeker, FF can easily say “if you know hoB why be concerned about WWsH?” knowing that this is not possible.

            Also yes, we know people are stumped at clues 3 & 4. If a searcher looks for these clues arbitrarily, without seeing the bigger picture, they get stumped; I believe.

          • Seeker, no, that’s not what I meant. I said what you quoted in response to what Jake said above- “ I think his (f) straightforward point gets across.

            The best I could guess why Jake said that was from him reading what I said- “F said the finder won’t know (s)he will have the first clue solved before finding the treasure.” and “maybe we can know the hints point to the correct geographical location that you speak of. Hints could include a possible hint in the poem.

            So, it wouldn’t be about being able to skip the first clue. It could be about knowing a hint which comes before solving the first clue.

  69. So what is the origin of this verba: Where Warm Waters Halt? Forrest Fenn did not invent this expression, and I know for sure where he got it, and now the only problem is, I think to make iit so simple that anyone, even a kid can understand it.

    SO Mr Terrific, that is spoken as a description of my ENTHUSIASM, not my confidence in my solution, so take it as humor from a kid at heart, who is, just a simple thinking, little stick figure that Forrest Fire draws in effigy occasionally, to poke fun at some here (maybe me) he is a master of verba, but an gifted artist like Eric Sloane he is not.

    So why is it that someone has gone and left their trove for all to seek? Would it be so simple a riddle that we must find a geothermal vent in some bathing place frequented long, long ago? Methinks not brave Helios, wake up your steed, it is, no it must be a profound thought WWWH, a meaning brought to us from a truth that time seems to have forgotten, yet children need it and they might see it while we search for a deeper meaning, yes we cannot see the forrest for the trees, but we can understand where to begin, if we take a closer look at: https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/24/scrapbook-two_hundred-forty-one/ and 242 something tells me there is a spiritual meaning to WWWH, and we need to keep our eyes on highter purposes to see where we are heading. Keep our nose up and what do we see? Tears are involved so go wash you face in the basin at the back of the church, there are many places where basins exists in the Rockies but only one where Spanish crosses form a place you can marry this wild idea.

    TT

  70. I strongly believe that if you want to figure out the location of WWWH (so that you are 50% closer to the TC) you need a key, and FF intentionally included that in the poem with a word with a capital letter. IMO you don’t need any books or his scrapbooks to solve this first clue.

    Also several ATF comments from FF support that; namely, the big picture, no short cuts, and 200 ft and 500 ft distances, to name a few.

    — MajinKing

  71. if I was looking for wwwh I would for – it not being to far, but to far to walk .2- I would look where a creek and a river meet.3- I would look for it at the bottom of a canyon.(the beginning ) I would look for the only place that has one road to turn in to, that follows the creek, up to home of brown.4- I would look for the road to have with a dead end 5- I would look for wwwh to be below the road where it dead ends and the road goes north an south, and I would look for the place, to have a no paddle up your creek and for it to be (the dead end to be at a man made structure) good luck and yes its my opinion

      • Lisa Cesari thanks for your reply – I went back and checked the Caldera rim , its a nice place ,Everything looks good as far as the poem is concern . what I found or didn’t find , was the man made structure for, there will be no paddle up your creek. thats where the creek, ends or begins , the creek has an ending and a beginning . no paddle was meant for you to turn north to heavyloads and waters high . in other words there is nothing on the other side (west) of no paddle, imo thanks Lisa —- frank

        • frank – There is ‘no paddle’ on the Madison River in YNP. No manned boating. Until you go all the way North, past the YNP boundary, where fishermen, called the ‘guloers’ put in with their boats, all the way down to Hebgen Lake from Baker’S Hole. That park boundary is man made. The Grizzlies that easily cross the narrow tributaries/braided creeks, on the several miles upstream to the Barns Holes from there, ignore the park boundary. And I wonder if Forrest did also?

          • ok Lisa – no paddle has nothing to do with fishing or anything else other then it being for direction. if you want to go in my house, you cant cause its locked. So don’t try the back door its also locked . so the front door is as far as you are going , there is nothing for you to do on the other side, the front door is as far as you need to go that’s what no paddle means to me , that’s as far as I need to go —- frank

    • I wouldn’t depend on a man made structure in order to solve the poem. The poem is supposed to be solvable about 10,000 years from now, in my opinion.

      • well Tall Andrew – 10,000 years from now, there will not be anyone, on this earth that will know about the treasure imo good luck

      • Hello Tall Andrew. I wouldn’t depend on a manmade structure in order to solve the poem either. Although at this point, the structure may me smarter than I am. (Giggle.) I do know what you mean. I certainly hope the poem will be figured out well before 10,000 years. I believe there’s a good chance the geography of the land will look a bit different than it does now.

  72. Lisa: no Reply option above so I start here….. in ref. to your post:
    Clove
    Clue
    Clovis
    Clover

    Sorry your impulse got ahead of your insight. Clove / clou (french) / see words with the root clou in them, could be cloud or…. well, never mind. And Clue was just a link to clew, a ball of string ….. also, never mind. We all have our own lists of instant associations to investigate. It might be good to note that not all resources offer the same detail info, its good to not rely on just one. But thanks for you post.

  73. Seeker it doesn’t matter if you want to skip wwwh you cant . that is the only way you are going to get to the other clues and the right highway imo—-frank

    • Frank…
      Right or wrong, I will not believe there is a road to be driven that gets us from one clue to another and describe that way in the poem.
      I truly believe this is an illusion the reader creates because of the line NF, BTFTW. I think this line is being oversimplified… mainly for the fact we see roads on maps and that gives the opportunity to find what we hope is a clue.
      I have to wonder if a 14 year old, unable to drive, would stand a chance at solving the poem and retreiving the prize. I mean, if I’m not mistaken, you have 50 or 60 miles between WWsH and hoB… with more miles for later clues. Other searcher have clues spanned over two or more states… I thought this was to get kids off the sofa and out in nature… not tumbin a ride while following the clues.

      • I’m with you Seeker. IMO, for a kid to be able to solve this, the search radius has to be relatively small. Capable of being walked is a must IMO.

      • Hello Seeker. If one does not drive with the idea of NF, BTFTW, is there something else we should consider? What if the idea of NF pertains to time and distance; wouldn’t be too long to get from here to there. Yet, if BTFTW suggests one doesn’t walk, but “run;” one gets there quicker. I suppose sticking a “big thumb” out to hitch a ride might help, too. He had a big thumb to cover Philadelphia. These are thoughts I’ve had over the years.

          • This is true, Aaron. Also, fish migration for spawning. If it’s not far, but too far to walk, one might be “stuck” or having to stand still/stay put.

          • Good point, Aaron. I can give an example to a place I searched which could describe NF, BTFTW and PibthoB. As I described earlier of the possibility of being “stuck,” or standing still/stay put, it could also mean “remain(s)”. PibthoB could be the “home” or “dwelling/village” place of Brown (people in the sun), surrounded by a cliff(s), the “Put in below”. Again, this could be totally wrong, but it was something I had searched for a couple years until the desert comment came out.

        • PD,

          Time maybe involved. Also, as Aaron pointed out, run can be a description of a clue rather than a clue which requires movement of the searcher.

          Basically; I can imagine a waterway flowing away from where a searcher is, and bending back towards the searcher to almost the same place… The water snakes through…
          Not far away is where the next clue is, but to far to walk if physically following the waterway.

          There are many ideas to how too far to walk can work other than alternative transportation.

        • pdenver – I guess they didn’t have Uber, back in Summer of 2009…

          Can you see the extended right thumb in the landscape, with the ‘nail’ bed border being the YNP boundary, pointing to my hidey spot?:
          https://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=44.7050&lon=-111.0938&z=16

          I imagine Forrest flying over that thumb ‘nail’ bed (or, ‘clue’ or ‘clove’, OS2?) on takeoff from KWYS airport, just across the highway. And holding his right thumb out. watched a Lear jet fly over me on takeoff, on our BOTG/BITW trip on Memorial Day Weekend of 2019. When I took those awesome CLOUD pictures, OS2.

          Giggles.

          • Nice thumb, Lisa. 🙂 Although they may not have had what is called Uber now, all one had to do then (and now) was stick out their thumb to get a ride. There’s a Big Thumb Creek in Yellowstone. There was a sign I saw about two-three years ago that read Big Thumb, which immediately made me think of the story of Philadelphia. For the life of me, I cannot recall exactly where it is. I believe it’s somewhere between Moran Junction and beyond the southern entrance to Yellowstone. Out of all the years we’ve traveled there, this was the first, and so far, last time I saw this sign. Little things that triggers the mind.

          • Hello Lisa. Big Thumb Creek is located across the street from West Thumb. It empties into Yellowstone Lake around that area.

      • seeker if I had $ 2 mil to hide , and I didn’t think the hunt was going to get as big as this one did , I to would not go to far , but it would be to far to walk , im not trying to change any minds but that’s the way I see it , you believe everything ff says why don’t you believe he drove from where he started all the way to where he parked with out stopping at every clue , you can do it to, if you can understand what the poem is saying, im not saying I understand it but at least I have a place to go check if I wanted to – I went once and I didn’t make it there that’s enough for me — frank

        • Frank, it does not matter what ff thought with the size of the hunt or how far away the spot was from him at any particular time or anything else.

          he had the place in mind as it was special to him already, before the treasure was a twinkle in his eye, he was going to make that place work… no matter the hunt size/distance or time it took…

          using logistics to figure out a solve is not going to work.. the place came before the treasure… there was no logistics involved in the decision for the hiding place.

      • Seeker, I thought Forrest wanted parents and children to get out and enjoy nature together while hunting the treasure. He says in this article (and similar quotes in many other places I think but I just grabbed this one) :
        “I hope that parents will take their children camping and hiking in the Rocky Mountains.” Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/forrest-fenn-fortune-hidden-rocky-mountains-2017-2
        I know that Forrest and his brother and friends had a lot more freedom when they were young, but I think when he hid the treasure just a decade ago he would have known that most parents would want to be with their kids if their kids were roaming the Rockies looking for treasure. So it seems, just IMO of course, that he would not necessarily have been thinking of 14 year olds (who could not drive) needing to be able to find the treasure on their own. While my own solve is not over a two-state or even a 50-mile area, I am of the opinion that there is a road to be driven but a hike, both on and off trail, is necessary beyond a certain point. I’m not worried about kids having to be in the car to follow the clues, maybe a good hike near the end is enough to get the whole family enjoying the outdoors–and of course IMO it’s unlikely that any family would figure out the right spot on the first solve anyway (no one else has) so they would likely see a lot of our beautiful Rocky Mountains anyway! And unless they live right in the neighborhood of Forrest’s hiding spot, they will likely have to drive to get to that area anyway so what is the difference? I hope I am not sounding rude, I don’t mean to be. I just wonder if we really need to be worrying about whether or not kids have to thumb a ride to get to the treasure. Just my IMO of course and good luck to you in your solve!

    • Frank, I think most highways have two way traffic, meaning you can go both directions, (most roads too) I am trying to think of a highway that you can’t go both ways to some particular point..

      for the people that believe that we need to park at wwwh, then this is perfectly fine.. but if one is driving by a wwwh on a major road to get to other clues, then how is it they can not go the other direction and get to those clues first?

      • Writis- you can start any place you want – you can start where the chest is, if you know where it is.then go south on the same highway, go past all the clues , till you get to wwwh turn right and go to santa fe if that’s where you want to go. you can stop at any clue going and coming it all up to you all so eather way the exit is wwwh to go where the clues are, or you can start at wwwh to go where the clues are. also how can the special place be a twinkle in his eye if he didn’t have a treasure to hide or even thought of it before

  74. In Forrest Fenn’s youngerhood, kids did not run away from home, but some were a little brave and would just hop a freight train to see what was just too far to walk too, they hung out with Hobos and thought about joining a Carnival or Circus, They had no money in the 1930’s and 40’s just a lot of time.

    Why would shooting or fishing for dinner be such a big deal? That’s what you did back then folks, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.” All of the south side of it is wwwh if Google Earth is correct , that is metaphorically 50% . The other 8 intersect at vectors and tangents, that borders on a wise discovery, if you can see it from there? TT

  75. One of the things that most of us have not considered is the future and our everchanging road/transportation system and modes of transportation. To rely on the existing transportation network might be foolish! Will the same paths/streets/roads be laid out the same in 10, 50, 100 or 1000 years or even still exist? ( just food for thought moving forward into the future).

    Would it be reasonable to consider then just following the poem and using hints from the book and a good understanding of geography help to lead us from WWWH to the location of the treasure?

    Just trying to keep things simple. Of course IMO.

    i

    • icefarmer,

      Well said! I have been a proponent of FF using clues that would likely enable searchers to find the location of the chest today, tomorrow, or in the distant future. I also try to keep in mind or imagine what the Chase would look like for someone 1,000 years from now and how they would be able to solve the mystery then. Thanks for interjecting this most valid point. All IMO.

      -Ann

    • Perhaps … icefarmer, f has forged an alternate route the the treasure site that will stand the greater test of time, even if the roads disappear. Perhaps the poem supports multiple routes to the treasure. That’s certainly something “big” to think about. 🙂

    • or as in the “Secret”, home plate of a baseball field suddenly was going to be a footer for an apartment building…. ouch…

      the timing of that Boston “Secret” find is just astonishing… really… like a higher hand dropped in to make a temporal “adjustment”…

    • How about 1000 years in the past? Those people would still have the same chance as those 1000 years from now. If we look at the year 1020, it may be difficult, but still could happen for someone back then to find the chest. (granted if the chase was back then, etc…etc…).
      The point being, they would not have a “current” map to use, so how could using a map for them help? They don’t have the names of places, along with roads, trails, etc…but yet, the poem would put an “x” on a spot for them.
      F may have thought 1000 years into the future, but the clues are for today. But with the realization that 1000 years past or future can still solve the poem, then it’s most likely we are not looking for names of places on some map.
      The only thing constant, that will stand the test of time, if the poem puts down an “x”, is coordinates. Not saying clues are coordinates or whatever, just that coordinates would allow all time eras to solve.
      Couldn’t Lewis and Clark solve the poem and find the chest? Think they drove or flew? What highways and roads do you think they would use?
      The clues are for today’s searchers, the poem solve has to be for today’s, tomorrow’s, and yesterday’s searchers. This is why, IMO, that solving the poem is different then solving clues. Beings how there would be no clues for those history searchers, since the clues did not exist when f was a kid, but the places they refer to did, they still would have the opportunity of finding the chest. They could not solve clues, there aren’t any, but they can still find the “x”. It may be really difficult, but they still could. This means that solving the poem is not solving clues. Two entirely different things. They have to be. Also, since those searchers would not have a map, it makes sense that in solving for WWWH, you don’t need a map. A map does not solve for WWWH, IMO. The only thing that can solve for WWWH is the poem.
      As far as walking, those early searchers would only be able to walk. IMO, your walk begins at WWWH. If you want to think in the future, you must also think in the past. So, you must think that there are NO clues, because the past would not have them, but you still could find the chest.

      • Put another way, do you think there was a HoB in the year 1500? Do you think that any distance was “too far” to walk back then? Whether they are clues or not, they wouldn’t help those history searchers, but yet, those searchers would still be able to find the chest.

        Food for thought

      • poisonivory –
        You state:
        1.) “If we look at the year 1020, it may be difficult, but still could happen for someone back then to find the chest.

        If the poem were being written in 1020 to get us to the same exact place where the treasure rests today, I would venture to speculate that it would have been written a bit differently to conform to the existing landscape at the time.
        Fenn states: “The rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.”
        https://www.pekintimes.com/article/20130713/NEWS/130719843

        Of course it will be! That’s a no brainer. We all know the earth is always changing. And we also know that baring any major disasters, it takes it’s good old time. I believe that was his point. That until we are way in the future, he anticipates the clues will stand pretty close to his original plan to get us to the treasure.

        You also state:
        2.) The point being, they would not have a “current” map to use, so how could using a map for them help? They don’t have the names of places, along with roads, trails, etc…but yet, the poem would put an “x” on a spot for them.”

        I don’t think a map matters in the sense that you are implying here. If Fenn has chosen a PHYSICAL FEATURE that he feels can last the test of time to the best of it’s ability as WWWHs and it is associated with a canyon of the same, it doesn’t matter what the names are. The names can change a million times as long as the features are still there, you still have a chance of finding the treasure.

        All just IMO.

  76. Well, good point about the future. Perhaps there won’t always be a need for roads if technology has us flying. Riding horseback could be on a road, a trail, or off trail. But it’s the locations of the clues that Forrest said would probably still be there: https://dalneitzel.com/cheat-sheet/ So apparently someone would be able to get there somehow, at least in the next 100 years, but the geography would probably change eventually over much greater periods of time.
    So although I said in my reply to Seeker above that IMO there is a road to be driven, I should probably clarify that the road is there now but might not be forever. I feel that driving would be the easiest way given the geography of the area and the distance to cover unless the searcher really wants to walk quite a ways–but IMO it is walkable. I do not believe, however, that FF walked all of it–just the last part after he parked his car. All IMO of course!

    • librarylady,

      I too support the notion of driving then walking. Obviously, most searchers would have to drive or fly from their current locations! And, depending on where a searcher believes the chest to be now, I imagine FF would have to do the same from his house in Santa Fe. Even at 8.5 miles North of Santa Fe, I imagine FF would be inclined to drive! All the obvious aside, I offer up the possibility that such a raod as may be involved may either dead end where we are to walk from or, we simply come to a point in the Chase where we must park and proceed on foot. All IMO.

      -Ann

  77. Librarylady- there is a road to be driven and I think that the highway is heavyloads I think it says – just take the highway (heavyloads) to waters high- no paddle stops you from going farther west – and heavy loads sends you north to waters high. from wwwh the clues are not in line going north that’s why at wwwh you take it in, to me it means turn , so now you are at a different highway imo but any way I agree with you – good luck and have fun —- frank

    • In some places in the poem it seems like it’s describing the letter W in the poem.
      As I have gone alone in there – if you look at the first line of the second stanza: Begin it [w]here warm waters halt, the letter W has gone literally in the word there. And [w]ith my treasures bold. I can keep my secret [w]here. I think that describes the same line pointing again to the W in the word “where”. Riches new and old, other than there being a W in new, I haven’t got much for that. Then you’ve got the three W-words in the next line, WWWH.
      And take it in the canyon do[w]n.
      Not far, but too far to [w]alk.
      Put in below the home of Bro[w]n. Then you’ve got some of the later clues pointing to W as well.
      The end is ever drawing nigh – W is nearly at the end of the alphabet. There’ll be no paddle up your creek. He contracted the W from will into the word there. Again , pointing back to the “as I have gone alone in there.” Line.
      If you’ve been [w]ise and found the blaze,
      Look quickly do[w]n, your quest to cease.
      But tarry scant [w]ith marvel gaze.
      It may just be coincedence though. I’m not even sure of how that can help you really. LOL

          • It is interesting, Lisa. There’s one thing that puzzles me about the backwards bicycle from “Smarter Every Day” video and the comment about such over at Jenny’s by Mr. Fenn. If I recall correctly, he didn’t say which of the videos he was referring to other than brand name of the video. It seems it was a searcher(s) that said it was the backwards bicycle he was referring to. I agree that he’s mentioned we needed to adjust, which the video suggests, but I really don’t know if it truly is the one he was referring to. Do you have any thoughts about this?

          • pdenver – Still looking for Forrest’s backwardS bike, in the deep, green ‘water high’ of the Madison River:

            https://cdn.freelogovectors.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/specialized-logo-768×768.png

            Is knowing about Forrest’s favorite fly fishing spots considered to be ‘SpecialiZed’ knowledge, in reference to my blaZe/blaSe at Baker’S Hole?

            I imagine Forrest riding his backwardS bike, maybe an old Schwinn, from the Fennhaven Cabins on Boundary Street, along the Boundary Trail, to the bottom of my ‘S’ blaze at the Baker’S Hole shoreline. The fishing trail begins right there. And my hidey spot is just across the Madison River from there. About 200′, to be exact.

          • pdenver – My namesake,.Queen EliZabeth/EliSabeth I, would say ‘adjust’ could be ‘add just’, in reference to her Act of Trover. Her nickname was ‘Bess’. Could that be?:

            Bess’d add just

            Instead of?:

            Best adjust

            I love Rabbit Hole s! So did Alice in Wonderland. And the Red Queen.

        • Im not too sure what it means Lisa. It seems like it means something though. Seems like too many things to be coincidence, doesn’t it?

          • NoName6 – I suggest you list all if the ‘Words’ with a ‘w’ in them in the Poem, to see if they create a map:

            “If you are brave and in the wood,
            I give you title to the gold.”

            Go for ‘IT’!

          • NoName6 – Are all the Words with a ‘w’ in the Poem nouns? What did Forrest say about the nouns in the Poem?:

            with
            where
            new
            where
            warm
            waters
            down
            walk
            below
            Brown
            drawing
            will (be)
            water
            wise
            down
            with
            why
            answers
            know
            now
            weak
            will
            worth
            wood

            Did I get them all? Which can be nouns?

          • Some of them are, Lisa. There are some verbs and adjectives in them as well. Yeah, I do remember him saying you couldn’t ignore any of the nouns. I wonder if he means pronouns as well? There’s kind of a way to make X’s in the poem. Look for pairs of words where the first and last letters are opposite. I’ve only been able to find two examples so far.
            Treasures
            Secret
            And
            Know
            Weak. So if you draw a line to the like letters it will give you an X.

          • Lisa,

            I
            All
            Etc.
            have some definition as a noun. Without looking I’d bet a nickle all the words can be usable in some noun form [depending].
            But common practice is; a class of people, place or thing.
            Given a name to anyone of those becomes a personal pronoun.

            “I” for example; can give a class of people, such as ancient people… In this context “I” can be of another during a point in time relating to the poem.
            The idea could be explained why stanza 5 asked Why “I” {fenn} must go… leaving his “trove”
            It also could relate to the idea; two can keep a secret if one is dead, should the first stanza be narrated, rather than, told of in the first party.

            So the question could be; who is “I” in stanza 1, what are his /her treasures and what is {s}he hinting about new and old?
            The poem starts in past tense and jumps to present tense… New and old?.. giving the idea “I” can be more about a noun [ a class of people ] vs. a pronoun, a single person [ or fenn in stanza 5, line of thinking ].

            Stanza 5 is a personal pronoun as related to the person who left his “trove” ~ in present tense.

            Basically saying; fenn may have known of a place he discovered the history of another before him. He then starts the poem in past tense narrating the other [possibly unknown person, hence the noun version] and creates the clues around where this find takes place… and where he wants to be found in present tense related to the poem.

            But sure, I guess the W’s might have some meaning to something.

          • A trove is just a collection of objects. So maybe it just means the trove of W’s in the poem. Maybe now we have to figure out how or why that letter is important in the context of the poem?

          • Seeker – If ‘I’ gave the Poem to a kid, and they read it aloud, they might think Forrest wrote ‘Eye’. So, read the Poem again, with that homophone in place of every ‘I’

            For my Baker’S Hole Solve, my Ponderosa pine tree, with the ‘continue straight’ blaze, is also an ‘Eye’ on a profile Smil•e face, in Satellite view on my topo map. An image that looks uncannily like the profile smiley face that Forrest includes in his signature.

      • Noname6, I hate to interject here, but I’d like to remind you that summer is almost here. Whenever I see someone on here who I think according to my solve has gotten a bit of something right, I like to tell them that I consider them a contender. So far, I’ve said this to about three people. Welcome to the club, Contender. Good luck to you.

        • Thanks JoJo, You have no worries of me actually claiming the treasure. I’m on the East Coast and have no idea what I would do with such things anyways. I just enjoy a good puzzle. LOL

      • NoName6,
        I think I count 23 W’s in the poem. It’s too bad there weren’t 24 W’s to match the 24th letter of the alphabet. I also don’t know how any of this would help us, even if there was one more ‘W’ in the poem. LOL

        If anyone is set on counting letters and would like one more ‘W’, I know where to get it!!! It’s at the end of f’s rainbo(w).

        Good luck.
        Moody

  78. THE Ws when where and who= WWW .I just have to kinda laugh” That’s the same thing many of us have discussed and hashed over for 10 years now. The answer I already know is what Forrest tells us in the poem. Although my war for me is the most interesting chapter in TTOTC. J.M.O.

  79. if you been wise and found the blaze look quickly down your quest to cease – look quickly down your quest to cease ,it has always meant to me ,is to look for the treasure a little f arther away from the blaze – thats where he left his trove for all to seek

  80. In the Charles Schultz comic strip when Friday came to Charlie Brown and Snoopy, that lovable pet was celebrating the happy dance on top of the dog house. …Afte reading many recent comments by searchers the happy dance just not coming across, what with 13th, Corona news and confusion about WWWH and all, so let’s lift our spirits and see the blazing truth that lies before us, life ain’t easy and without rules and spiritual guidance as a compass we may be lost or bewildered.

    What is a requiem? Why wood ff post an entire Scrapbook about a reflection of an embarrassing collision with a Box Elder Mapletree, and mispell Meryl aka Merel Haggards name,why speak of shiloh s bunkhouse?

    It may help to get marred to the idea that where warm waters halt could be a Spanish Church in the wilderness, with a basin, a home for that Brown, not who is Brown but what is Brown’s house. THANK YOU CANADA.

    TT

  81. Well, Forrest taught me long ago not to look for clues in everything he says. Having said that, his words in SB250 reminded me of something I’ve pondered upon for several years. I’ll just drop it here:

    He said, “……teach Willie what “stay” means.”

    STAY: Archaic
    a. The act of halting; check.
    b. The act of coming to a halt.
    https://www.thefreedictionary.com/stay

    • Depending on the context, it is also a reasonable synonym for “keep”, “tarry”, “retard” and I don’t know how many others. Circles, again. Maybe this is just the nature of language, but it sure seems like if you pick any interesting word in the poem and follow it back, up, down and around, you’ll end up with one or more words related to the Chase. Could they all have something in common, and could it be a Key Word?

  82. Can’t remember if I had mentioned this before. Please realize that this is just a random thought and not a suggestion of WWWH.
    However –
    Imagine driving a vehicle to a parking lot that just happens to be – Below the home of Brown (whom, or whatever that may be). When one’s car came to a halt in said parking lot… the warm waters in the radiator and engine halted as well.
    If we parked below the correct HOB, we can take “it” (trail – etc.) in the canyon down. Who knows… the “it” could particularly relate to the HOB in some way forming a connection so to speak.
    Yep… a random thought only… and would suggest that the “put in” would be the treasure was put in somewhere in the canyon down… below the HOB.
    Only mentioned here to suggest there are sooo many warm waters that could halt in sooo many ways.

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