Where Warm Waters Halt…

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…

dal…

259 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

    • I also thought the same thing until FF responded to the Christ of the Mines Shrine solve saying that he had never heard of Christ of The Mines Shrine in Silverton, Colorado until several months after the chase. Exactly the same time frame as when the solve was presented!!!!

      I would think the special place would have to be a little more intimate to a person

      • I think I know where warm waters halt, but I am stuck with the second clue because there is no canyon near the location of the first clue. But I think this is why one has to have boots on the ground. Still supposedly one can figure out the first two clues before one has to be on location in order to follow the rest of the clues. Which is why I can’t be absolutely certain of my solve of the first clue.

    • Haven’t posted in a while, so thought I would drop a note.

      I used to believe that WWWH was the confluence of the Uncompahgre with the Gunnison because of one of the alternatively accepted translations of “Uncompahgre (heck, I used to think WWWH was a lot of things). Then about 18 months ago I started looking at the bigger picture. I started thinking in the broad sense of “physical” geography. Where does all water halt, or at least collect? IMO, the second stanza tells us what we are looking for as a place to start.

      IMO, the second stanza also tells us the name (and it is not Brown – IMO). It describes “it”, the water, as it flows into the canyon down. It also states that this water/creek/river is long.

      To me, the next stanza describes and confirms this particular body of water.

      The forth stanza switches to past tense, indicating that what you seek will be found as you travel down stream, but before the end (ever nigh).

      I will have BOTG in late August to see if I am correct. Correct or not, I will post my “solve” after the trip. I plan to do some fishing while I am there, so it will be fun either way.

      Just my current line of thinking,
      Scott W.

      • Hi Scott,

        I think “it” refers to a stream as well.

        Although, there are two “its” in the poem. The first “it”… begin it WWWH… probably refers to “the chase”. The second “it”… take it in the canyon down… probably refers to the river/stream.

        Have fun seeking the treasure!

      • I grew up in Delta where the Uncompahgre and Gunnison meet. I have scoured the area with no real leads except for Fort Uncompahgre. Along the Gunnison just outside of Delta is a Dig If you need boats on the ground in the area please let me know?

    • On one of my extensive searches in 2013 I stopped by the Ute Indian Interpretation Center which sits beside the Uncompahgre river In Montrose CO and asked the person at the center what Uncompahgre means. She told me it means “Where warm waters flows.” She was obviously of Indian descent and since she was working at that interpretive center I presume she was of Ute ancestry and therefore believe she knew what she was talking about.

      Note the following In support of the native American Indian’s definition.

      Wikipedia’s article on the Uncompahgre River:
      [Actual quote of the source referenced by References #7]
      “by the Yutas called Ancapagari (which according to the interpreter, means Laguna Colorado) because near its source there is a spring of red water, hot and bad tasting.”

      What’s in a Name: Uncompahgre:
      Ute meanings include “warm flowing water,” “where water makes rock red,” and “red soil” – https://www.5280.com/2014/01/whats-in-a-name-uncompahgre/

      A LADY’S LIFE ON A FARM IN MANITOBA (circa 1882):
      PREFACE.
      These letters were never intended for publication, and were only the details written to our family of an every-day life, and now put in the same shape and composition; not as a literary work, but in hopes that the various experiences we underwent may be useful to future colonists intending to emigrate and farm, either in Manitoba or Colorado.
      OURAY, August 24.
      “Mr. W—— met us at 5 o’clock A.M. at the “Hot Springs,” so called from the boiling water that gushes out of the ground, and which is said to give the name of “Uncompahgre” to the district, that being the Indian word for hot water.” – http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/6732/pg6732-images.html

      FYI: The Uncompahgre River begins flowing crystal clear at Lake Como near the peak of Brown mountain which then flows down the Poughkeepsie Gulch and then into a very deep canyon until it crosses under U.S. Highway 550 to where afterwards there are a couple of beautiful blazing waterfalls. Lake Como is frozen for the good part of the year and usually does not thaw out until late June. In other words the beginnings of the Uncompahgre River is sourced from frozen (halted) water. But… a tributary called Red Mountain Creek flows into the Uncompahgre River down river from those blazing water falls. That creek is heavy laden with a reddish brown color due to the large amount of iron in the creek that flows down from the three (3) Red Mountains which are also heavy laden with iron. At the base of these Red Mountains (in the valley alongside the “Million Dollar Highway” which the Red Mountain Creek flows alongside) is a ghost town called Ironton.

      With all that said I am reminded of what FF says in TTOTC pg 27. “that rusty old iron thing marked the tail of my britches pretty good with a heavy brown color… I was beginning to learn where the edges were…”

      If anyone happens to be hiking in the woods in that area and sees my “NO STOPPING or STANDING NEXT 2 MILES” sign that I strategically planted in the middle of no where for amusement purposes then go ahead and give me a thumbs up.

      ALSO… If this info helps out for finding Indulgence then go ahead and throw me a nugget or two.

      • Very interesting reading. Especially after reading FF’s chapter in his last book, Once Upon A While. There’s a chapter about The Iron Rooster of Sante Fe County. Wow…

    • Aaron–Now that is a very important question..Define IT and you will have a correct starting point..Just one mans opinion..No chest in my possession yet..

    • Aaron,

      Folks have been talking about what IT means and there are quite a few that have been debating this. Question, what if the word IT is not important in solving anything?

      • I wrote this someplace a few years ago and maybe you’ll think it’s worth remembering, Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key. f

        IT’s worth remembering
        IT’s a key

      • I don’t think the word “it” is critically important to a good solve of the poem. If asked nicely what I think “it” means, I’d likely answer “The thrill of the chase” . . . which I kinda think would be a considerably suitable name for the of the poem, if allowed by Mr. Fenn.

        Denver should be looking pretty good in a few weeks. That’s right; I said Denver.

        As always, all part of my opinion.

        • Ha! Denver will certainly put a smile on your face… after a purchase of a nickle bag. Is it still call that? It’s been a while…

          But if IT is of no importance why put IT in?
          The line would easily read perfectly;
          Begin where warm waters halt.
          But IT gives pause for thought to why it’s even there.
          As you said, Andrew, IT has some meaning to you, as some possibility for it {IT}

          IT; used in the normal subject or object position when a more specific subject or object is given later in the sentence.
          IT; used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified.

          IT; used to emphasize a following part of a sentence.

          I kinda like the last usage. IT in the first part of the sentence may refer to IT in part of the sentence; “Take it in” which can be of a physical or visual usage.
          This would create the idea of “begin IT to be visual or “Begin Observing where WWsH and view in the canyon [in some direction of down] and kinda relates to the first definition as well.

          IT can also refer to something already mentioned [ as in the second definition ]. Or meaning; something from stanza 1.

          IDK… it seems a word that doesn’t really need to be in the sentence, is there, and not important.
          Especially if, “take IT in” is only a physical movement towards a direction of down.

          The point is; just dismissing it {IT} as not critically important to a solve.. leaves only one option.. “take IT in” would be of a movement only, idea.
          But yet, fenn put it {IT} after “begin” as well. Ya gotta ask, why did he do it…? or should that it be ~ that? … why did he do that?

          Yep, that [that] sounds better.

          • I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified.” and then “Or meaning; something from stanza 1”.

            It is a pronoun that is referring to something previously mentioned or possibly in this case determined from the “I” riddle in stanza one. Answer the I riddle to determine what IT is referring to.

          • Often when I read the poem I get the feeling like “it” is the chest itself and he’s giving directions from the hiding spot back to your vehicle. Like the poem in reverse.

      • The only thing that I can say about “IT” is it is no longer with you when you leave the canyon,
        Or the second stanza could be interrupted to say
        “IT” is buried in the canyon.
        That’s all I got to say about “IT”
        All the above is only My Opinion

        Best Regards to all in the chase
        Kanafire

  1. The first time I heard the words “where warm waters halt” was in 1991… on a camping/fishing trip with my wife and her father.

    The second time I heard the words “where warm waters halt” was in 2014… when I happened upon an interview with a crazy old man that had hidden a treasure chest somewhere north of Santa Fe.

    Did I mention that my wife (and her father) are from Santa Fe…? Could this WWWH phrase be a regional colloquialism…?

      • Thanks meBigGuy,

        Shortly after my post, I saw other posts that talked about warm/cold water descriptions by NM Fish and Game. It certainly seems plausible.

        When my father-in-law delivered the phrase WWWH, we were visiting a hot spring that was flowing into a river… I always assumed that WWWH was associated with a hot spring… now I wonder whether it was in reference to fishing the stream and it’s fishing boundaries. Alas, my father-in-law has since passed and there is no way to ask him directly.

  2. I would start trying to decode
    Begin into I…..
    If you notice the first 4 lines are ( I N I). Into I

    Where warm…. here in W W w are M, M,W….
    So you change the w’s to M’s,,,, and the M’s to W’s…
    Waters= w at E are S……
    Go in the 4 lines and see if a w is next to an E… there is. Change that w to s, it will say sand.
    Waters halt. Or this.
    W,a,t,e are S, H, A, L…, play with it…..
    See S halt?
    Look at the poems first letters!
    See
    As I have gone alone in there…….
    It has s I have
    Its telling you to erase the I and match it to S ha. With no I…..
    You have to stop reading the poem. Read the words.
    Begin into I…. T W here, find the T w here! You see?
    Once you get used to it it will get easier.
    Or do what Forrest said!
    You should be doing NOTHING WITH GUESSING if your serious about the poem. NOTHING!..
    USE WHAT I SHOWED YOU, NOW START IN THE BOOK AND LOOK FOR THE HINTS.
    UNLESS YOU HAVE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SEARCH EVERY WWWH FOR 10 YRS. He is 500 steps ahead.
    All National forest names are mixed in together from every state! Purposefully
    Another view:
    The end is ever drawing nigh=
    The end I is severed are a wing n eye!
    Drawing nigh= win in the dragons eye
    I could go on all day! Im getting close to completion, i should have already found this thing.
    Its multi layered in every direction, basically anyone from any of the states can go searching with the poem and it would add up, this is THE THRILL OF THE CHASE AND ITS PURPOSE.
    But there is only 1 way to see the (back door) , thats the tricky part. Just my thoughts!

    • (back door)
      Seems like a “short cut”

      “USE WHAT I SHOWED YOU”
      Why don’t you use it and go get the treasure. lol

    • “Oh for joy!! For joy!!! (clapping loudly). It is wonderful to see another searcher so bloody sure of themselves!! This one goes as far as to call themselves “I am the one”. That is marvelous…simply marvelous! I shant post too much more except to say “by George I think he’s got it!!” Do be a good lad and send me photos once you have found it won’t you? (sips from a tea cup). Cheers!!”

      —-Queen Elizabeth

    • Wait! …What?

      INI – into where?
      Change what to what?
      Erase a what, where?
      See what S is for, for what reason{S}?
      Flip something upside down, and make a W into an S… or is IT… into a T?
      Wings have eyes?
      How did the dragon get something in his eye?

      Um, …Why is there a dragon? .. err…
      IS there an alien egg involved somewhere in there?

    • I – 1.
      No disrespect since everyone has there own thoughts how to solve the poem. But a déjà vu for me on this one. I almost fell off my chair. Many have done similar try’s as you are doing. If you have more then 10 lifetimes and stay on your course you may find it that way I don’t know. Your over cooking the poem. He warned us of that.
      But in the interest of your approach there are others out there on your track and I’m sure you could get some help there. I for one am not seeing it.
      Poems rhyme. Try that first
      In fact if I had permission. I would send you half the poem rewritten just as you are trying to do. And guess what it doesn’t tell you anything. In fact you will start to decipher what you deciphered Your own poem Rethink.
      All in my hardheaded opinion.
      GH

    • I’m usually the one encouraging posters who play with the words of the poem, since that’s the general approach I take. But while reading your post I got dizzy, so I’ll wish you luck in your endeavors and leave it at that.

      There are many ways to play with the words. If after all your rearrangements the pieces you found fit neatly and easily together I might think you have something. If they’re a random hodgepodge that takes effort to form into a coherent set of directions I think you’re on the wrong track.

  3. Lets look at where warm waters halt with a clue that was given 08/12/2016 by ff himself: “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short-cuts.”

    So what do you think this means? and what is in the Rocky Mountains south of Santa Fe that is also found north and it has to be a geological location? My guess is WWWH has to be a ……..mountain pass, lake, mountain, or maybe cell phone service? FF 08/11/2016 said: “There are many places in the mountains where cell-phone service is not available.” This would imply in the RM both north and south and a geological point on a map.

    Think the “what if” and let me know your crazy ideas?

    Together we can find this

    BDM

    • Mr. Fenn told us that there are hints in TTOTC book , to help unlock the clues in the poem. So I would think the answer to your question, must some how be hinted at if not directly reviled in TTOTC book.In TTOTC book he talks quite a bit about having cancer, death in general, and cemeteries. I would lean toward cemeteries, with snow capped peaks coming in second.

    • New Way,

      I take “warm waters” as literal… waters most likely warmed by hot springs. There are a lot of hot springs north of Santa Fe. If you were to investigate every hot spring north of Santa Fe, you’d be looking for 10 years and still not find it. That’s why he says look at the big picture. Eliminate those hot springs that you can not attach to a canyon down, a home of Brown, a creek up…

      • there are only 293 official (named) hot springs in that region. Many searchers have done what you say. The tough part (for me) is hoB. The joe brown put in on the yellowstone river is the most obvious.

        • Yes. I think hoB is the clue that seems to be most elusive. Has FF said whether or not someone has successfully identified hoB. I have a hoB that I don’t think anyone else has come up with. My hoB is a pueblo/mission. Brown Franciscan…

        • ah, but it’s even worse. When you include other name variations: “warm/hot/boiling/etc.” and “springs/creek/river/etc.” This gets well over 1,000. Then you add in place names and roads, etc. Not really feasible in any case.

  4. From an abstract perspective, which I believe is most appropriate here, I’ve only managed to come up with a few possible solutions; each of which is more or less likely in their own right.

    1. For a time, I’ve considered ‘warm’ waters to halt in the absence of a source of warmth like sunlight. If this interpretation is correct and the poem presupposes the existence of a specific canyon I’ve looked at options like the Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Black Canyon of Yellowstone, shadow canyon, etc. This particular interpretation stemmed, in part, from FF comments regarding asking a child; I think most children have a sense of warmth/cold outdoors waters relating to sunlight, daytime, etc.

    2. Forrest’s memoir is nothing if not a work focusing on the existentialism of our respective position in this world and the impact we have on those around us. In keeping with this theme -death, mortality, etc. – I think it’s possible to interpret WWWH broadly, within the context of the end of life. To that end, there are a number of canyons with names like Graveyard, Death, Cemetary, etc. It’s also possible that this interpretation points to something more historical like a monument, famous battle location, etc. Now obviously FF has indicated the treasure is not located in a cemetary or graveyard but I don’t believe that excludes this interpretations validity with regards to specific clues. In fact, FF references graveyards no less than four times in TTOTC and the book, as previously mentioned, has a heavy focus on all things mortality.

    3. TTOTC also references steam engines and an antiquated defintion of “halt” pertains to locations at which old steam locomotives would stop along their journey.

    4. Endorheic basins, proglacial lakes, petrified trees, and other geograohical phenomena may be worth considering but are dangerously close, if not in direct violation, of the specialized knowledge comment.

    Thus far, I’ve considered and discarded multiple solves referencing WWWH specific to tributaries, hot springs, bodies of water with names that can be interpreted within that context, etc. I think the specificty of the poem and subsequent comments from FF indicate that the solve for this particular clue is not related to a guess hazarded around the relative temperature of this or that stream.

    I could go on and on at length but these are just my current thoughts. I don’t feel to strongly about any of these ideas and I’m happy to receive feedback. Excuse the typos; at work.

  5. Sinks canyon, Ice box canyon, Otto’s bathtub, come to mind when I think of wwwh as literal names. Thermal waters come to mind as well, Boiling river, Firehole river. I think for halt to ring true, they (plural – waters) must change names.
    Which makes them come to an abrupt stop.

    • I have no evidence that bodies of water with names related to warmth are incompatible with the poems solution, however:

      1. I believe that in order to avoid a “specialized knowledge” fallacy many solutions along these lines must be discarded.

      2. These solutions are not “tricky” and require little interpretative effort or thought.

      3. I haven’t noted hints, subtle or otherwise, within TTOTC that lead me to believe these solutions have potential.

      Just some initial thoughts.

    • Tony, I’m a bit surprised that you claim that changing names makes waters come
      to an abrupt stop. The waters probably aren’t aware of what cartographers do.
      All part of my opinion, before I drive toward Main St.

  6. dal on July 16, 2019 at 10:01 am said:

    NWOT-
    You may be one of the few to consider the trail down to 7 Mile Hole in the Yellowstone Canyon a likely place for indulgence. That’s an 11 mile round trip with an elevation gain of 1,400 feet. Seems like a lot for an 80 year old guy to accomplish twice in one afternoon carrying a 22lb pack…Good news is that he only would have to carry the goodies down slope…
    But why do you say it’s “the spot”?
    How do you “put in” at a hole and what’s the “Brown”..? just curious..

    Answer::::::::::

    “It is like asking me how deep is a hole.”

    Not too far for an 80 year old man if you only go 166 steps and/or 200 feet!!!!

    • NWOT – Reposting this here from my post on the closed WWWH thread:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2019/05/17/where-warm-waters-halt-16/#comment-783989

      That would be “Waters” in the classic 1938 fly fishing book by Back. Which I finished reading yesterday. He considered those 10 miles from just above Barns Hole #1 to Hebgen Lake to be his favorite fly fishing destination. He mentioned that a “fish-hog” would park inside the YNP West Entrance gate to make sure he was first at the prime fishing spot on the Madison at Nine Mile Hole. Didn’t Forrest’s Dad do that? And he pointed out that the many “streams” that meet the Madison, between the Barns Holes and Baker’S Hole, create a great place, just downstream from the inflowing cold ‘creek’ water, for the biggest trout to ‘lie’. And then there was the use of “married” in Back’s reference to the warm water “parents” of the Madison River: the Gibbon and the Firehole.

      The entire book was structured very much like Craig Mathews’ excerpt I posted from his book about the Madison River; a play by play ‘map’ to get to all the best ‘holes’ for excellent fly fishing. Someone gifted Back’s book to Craig twenty years before he wrote his introduction to the new 2000 edition of Back’s classic. I would be surprised if both Marvin and Forrest Fenn did not use this book for reference. Maybe Forrest will see this post and respond? Craig’s copy is pretty dog-eared. And first editions are almost impossible to find.

      Accessibility from roads was highlighted. Especially from my WWWH at Madison Junction to the Barns Holes. Back also covered the on the Firehole from Midway Geyser Basin to Madison Junction and on the Gibbon from Norris Geyser Basin to Madison Junction. But that section from the Barns Holes to Baker’S Hole, with the solitude he found there, still was Back’s favorite. And Forrest’s, IMO. At least after I read the preface of TFTW. Still thinking about his “lonesome shadow”.

  7. The first time I heard the phrase “where warm waters halt” was in 1991 while on a camping/fishing trip with my father-in-law. He used the phrase to describe the area we had traveled that day. The area was in the Jemez Mountains… an area he enjoyed fishing. Like many other residents of Santa Fe, he enjoyed the Jemez for it’s close proximity to Santa Fe but also it’s trove of natural/historic treasures.

    The second time I heard the phrase “where warm waters halt” was 25 years later in 2014 while watching an interview with Forrest Fenn. Needless to say, the phrase startled a deeply hidden memory from 25 years prior.

    Is it possible/probable that “where warm waters halt” may be a regional colloquialism…?

    • I’ll answer it the second time also (once for each time you heard it :P)

      fish and game in NM define warm waters and cold waters, so yes to your question.

  8. Sorry New way of thinking. I was trying to respond to Doug’s post up thread, but it didn’t go to the right place.

  9. Begin it.
    OK, we got that this is the 1st clue where to start the chase, so we probably don’t have to red into this any more seeing the face value was proved.

    Where = A place, spot, location on a map and probably Google earth.
    Warm = Comfortable, either physically (temperature) or emotionally.
    Waters = Body of water, multiple tributaries of water flowing.
    Halt = Stop, discontinue, cease.

    At face value using simple definitions, it appears to me you have to consider all 4 words describing a place, spot or location that is in water. I would not recommend ignoring any of these words and they should all be equally important.

    1st clue breakdown 101

      • JDA – in my opinion, the words could have been “field of Brown”, ” door of Brown”, “hut of Brown”, etc. You can still get the same answer. However, “home of Brown” is much more intuitive since it implies you are looking for a place. But it doesn’t really matter.

        Scott W.

  10. The only place I have seen which specifically uses “Warm Waters” as a defined place(s) is in the NM Fishing Rules and Info booklet. There are many places where the “Warm waters”, as defined by the booklet, “halt” and then begin again later downstream in a canyon. These would be “Special Trout Waters”. That being said, there are few which are north of Sante Fe and where a 79/80 year old man could go carrying two heavy loads.
    FF was an avid trout fisherman and most likely used the NM term “Warm waters” and is familiar with this term and its definition according to NM Fishing Rules and Info.
    So our solve is in NM north of Sante Fe.
    As always, IMO.

    • Possible TS, but not only is this specialized knowledge but how can we know that these regulations will be around for a thousand years or even a few decades?

      • Hey-O Tarheel –

        Even if *Warm Waters* does refer to fishing waters, there’s no need to confine it to New Mexico – it’s understood by fly fishers all over the four search states.

        Here’s a description of the Yampa River in northern Colorado (source – Colorado Fishing Network)

        “Yampa River (CO) – Starting in the mountains, this river traverses mostly high, dry rangeland and canyons. The flyfishing varies as much as the terrain. The Upper Yampa holds *cold-water* species whereas *warm-water* species are found downstream at river’s end. Somewhere in-between, the two meet with opportunity to fish for trout and pike in the same river spot.”
        Source – Colorado Fishing Network

        (It’s worth noting that the Yampa “river’s end” is where it flows into the Green River, which is cold ‘trout’ water released from Flaming Gorge over-and-up on the Utah/Wyoming border. So the Yampa “warm-water” stops at its confluence with the Green.)

        Jake

        • Jake,
          My original post was for “waters” (plural). No “waters” in CO Fishing Network.
          I believe FF put Warm waters (plural) as a specific indicator….not a broad descriptor.
          As always…IMO
          Good luck and stay safe.

    • Tarheel, in general terms I can assure you every fisherman (including ff) and my self and thousands in NM, knew this term WWWH not specialized knowledge and if you did not abide by the WWWH, you got a hefty fine and your tackle was confiscated by NM Game and Fish, However this term ends at the Colorado Border, no where else is it said exactly like that. As state above, Colorado does mean RED, as in Warm…any more questions would be minor distinctions in the Big Picture IMO.

      So even if WWWH was not the exact place in a canyon on a river, the border would settle the dispute again IMO.

      TT

      • montana also has (recently) a warm waters license. Pretty common terms. Many lakes are home to warm water species. That is pretty general knowledge.

          • To all responders above,
            I’m saying that the only place I have found which references a specific “Warm waters” (plural waters) in writing is the NM booklet. I know that many people refer to warm waters, myself included, but I have not seen a specific reference in writing as “warm waters” except as noted above.
            I have read the Wy, Mt and Co fishing regs but did not see a detailed reference to “Warm waters” (plural) in those. I may have missed it…anything is possible.
            As always, IMO.

          • Tarheel;

            An alignment of your thought, I can see how “N. of SF.” to be a hint to NM [for clues]
            I can see “in the mountains” as a piece of information to be used as mountains in NM.
            I can see the poem use of “end” as a border or state line, idea.
            I can see “New and Old” as a possible reference to territories of Old Mexico, idea to New Mexico, line of thinking. Which could change the idea of where your WWsH changes, or give credence to the idea of present day borders.

            We also have the book given to a single book store ‘in NM.’ That alone raises question to why only a single store, who agreed that 10% goes to cancer research, and not to a larger chain store, to push those donations to a higher level. [at that time]

            But for the life of me… I have a hard time to think fenn is following any ‘rules n regulations’ that is government issued… and not really available to many states or other countries.

            It kinda say… this was only meant for NM residence, and anglers [ in-particular] in the state… would have a great advantage just because of a fishing license purchase w/ a fishing manual and guide lines, ‘requirement’

            I mean, who had a home computer, an idiot phone, the internet, in 1988 or some later years to find this information-?- without actually going to NM and getting an out of state permit to fish.
            It’s a big stretch for me… that’s all I’m saying. I like how it looks like it can work.. but still a big stretch.

            Do you know when the wording was placed in the fishing information for NM? Just out of curiosity…

  11. My dear Watson it seems that there are multitudes that are still going in circles in the Rockies. Having completed “WWWH 101” at Jaketown University I am ready to disclose a probability that is not a mere flip of a coin. I recall Prof. Moriarty , prior to his debauchery, one day on Baker Street while attending to his green tea discussing rumors from America of an ancient hot springs called Ojo Caliente. Now Watson, please take notes to leave for my house lady so she can forward any correspondence direct to me while I am in the North American continental confines. There is a small river called a Spanish name, Rio Ojo Caliente, write that down. It appears to flow towards another river, a much COLDER river, another Spanish name, The Chama. There at The Chama the warm waters of the Rio Caliente halt and cease to exist and this my dear Watson is where I shall “Begin It “. Yes, write this in your notes, below EL Vado….the home of Brown. Watson, above all make sure my correspondence is sent to the Collective Bookstore , Santa Fe, south from where I will be in hot pursuit. Very well my good chap.I bid you ado and I shant tarry long.

    • I’ve never used a dictionary in England, but I have used many in the United States. I know what “halt” means. That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it. All IMO,
      of course. Y’all’s wileage may continue to vary, I’d guess.

    • Holmes,
      Have you taken a swim in this Spanish named rio called Rio Ojo Caliente?
      Are you assuming that it is warm because it’s name or do you have actual 1st hand evidence that it is a comfortable temperature?

      It appears this river is formed by 2 other rivers converging as some here think that qualifies as WWWH.

      I think the qualification is for it to be warm year round and not just in summer when some rivers warm up a bit.
      I suggest you head north where the waters are warm year round but halt a short distance away. Keep flipping that double sided coin.

    • EL VADO. A place in the upper reaches of Coyote Canyon in the Santa Rosa Mountains (San Jacinto Range) was given this descriptive Spanish name meaning “the ford” by Juan Bautista de Anza on December 20, 1775. He wrote in his diary, “we halted … where plentiful running water as well as some pasturage was found. On arriving at this place, which we called El Vado

  12. Where warm water halts… in my opinion I believe it means glaciers or turn to ice… so I started at glacier county Montana

  13. My current favorite for WWWH is the continental divide. We tend to think in terms of gravity, but the clue includes no such rules.

      • Hey Scott, How ya been?

        I really like that question. I think this is a mental block readers of the poem put in their minds when they only think of 9 clues.
        The first thing we are told to do is decipher the first clue, right? Ok Lets say the correct deciphering is CD. But like you said, where on it?
        My question is; why do we need to know where right at that moment? Can’t we decipher [lets say] hoB and what if refers to and that helps with the where part for clue one?
        Can HLnWH deciphering do that?

        On the example in an old theory of mine work that way; WWsH- the CD. Canyon down is a direction from WWsH but unknown to where at this moment.
        NF,BTFTW revolved around time, but that was known of either at that moment. HoB was considered Canada for the Title of it symbol the brown beaver [not unlike our symbol the Bald Eagle]

        OK if we juts stop there. Does this give a location for WWsH on the CD? Does it give a possible Canyon in that location? Does understand the possible hoB give the idea that NPFTM can be the USA side of the RM’s [ home of the brave ] a clue deciphering from stanza 3?

        The point is… why do we think we need to just figure out what, where, why of WWsH just from that 6 words in that line in stanza 2?
        To me… That approach, or thought process is only guessing what WWsH is and where.
        fenn said we need to learn where WWsH is and all the information to find the chest is in the poem, and tells us to adjust… to get back in the box… how in the world can any clue be completely deciphered on it’s own with just 6 words out 166 words to work with?

        This, IMO, is why folks can still be stuck on the first two clues… there seems to be a mental block that deciphering has to be the same as ‘follow the clues in order’… like we are not supposed to try and figure out anything else in the poem that could help understand the first clue fully. or any other clue.

        I’ll use JDA as an example of a type of mental block I think may be happening [ I hope he doesn’t mind ]
        He uses “in the Wood” as a connection to help WWsH. The idea is good because he is thinking of other info in the poem to help with an answer to the first clue. But, his concentration is only on the first clue. Maybe Brave and in the wood helps another clue or maybe HLnWH helps WWsH.

        Nothing is taken out of order within the poem… just our thinking we have to solve the first clue before solving any other clue. This is where all the hours of “oustside” research come into play… as if the answers to any clue [first clue mostly] ‘outside’ the poem.
        The same can be said for the first stanza… that is can only help with the first clue because it is prior to that clue, but stanza 5 or 6 might not juts because it seem to be past the ‘clue section’ of the poem.

        Maybe to answer ‘where’ warm waters halt’s deciphered answer is [ its reference – in this case the CD ] we need another clue deciphered for its reference to do just that.
        Clues are Contiguous comes to mind.

        For this reason above… is why I dislike the idea that “all clues must be different location” from each other.
        That mindset stifles any other thought process, or the WhatIF’s fenn may refer to; in the dart tossing SB.

        • Seeker,

          Good to hear from you again. I think you and I have been on pretty much (more or less) the same page for years. Something you said maybe three years ago got me into thinking about things differently, and I started looking at the clues as descriptors of a place rather than a “path” to a place.

          I liken it to a zoom lens on a camera. When I point the camera at the subject with the zoom all the way out, it has the target in the frame but I can’t quite make it out. As I zoom in further, I can start to see more detail. As I zoom all the way in, the subject is clearly defined. The camera was pointing at the subject the entire time.

          It goes back to the “big picture” view. Each clue is a step up in zoom. Kind of a nerdy way to say it, but that is the best analogy I could come up with at the moment.

          BTW, I don’t believe WWWH is the CDT. However, a point on the CDT does come into “view” as I zoom in .

          All just my opinion, of course.

          Scott W.

          • I like the analogy a lot, Scott.
            It puts in perspective the idea of descriptors [as you said] vs. just a place on a map as, too simplistic to start with.
            Kinda like; It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.

            Has far as the CDT [I don’t like the T-trail. It not so much about the “trail” as much as what is happening on this area, line of thinking, long before it was give the idea {titled as a trail} for hiking as a recreation.]

            But like you explain with your analogy… we need to be zooming in to a specific place. The question is; what does this?
            I think * later clues * [ and other info ] in the poem can direct a “thought” to bring WWsH in to clarity.

            I’m thinking of the idea as the big picture to be; contiguous; the clue’s connections to each other… how they work with each other.
            We might be able to see the physical clues as separte, but we need to zoom in to see them all in the same frame, to see how they fit with one another, Idea.

            Basically saying; they are pieces of a whole… synergy; the whole is greater than all its part. But, we need all those part. [ descriptors ]
            Feel free to yack off blog if ya like… good to see you pop in now and then.

            Really!.. three years ago?
            I can’t remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

        • I believe that the clue” WWWH “can be deciphered on its own. It calls for thinking like the “ lifelong vagabonds” who came up with their solution of “ begin it where the Sweetwater river flows through the Devils Gate”
          The Sweetwater is running through a canyon at this point.
          The correct solution will call for “ thinking and analyzing”.
          The poem wasn’t designed to be easy, Forrest wanted us out in the Wood BOTG.
          All of the above is IMO
          Kanafire

  14. I am stuck on the warm waters halting. The first simple thing I came across was the story on EC Waters and the E.C S.S. Waters ship. Mr. Waters entrepreneurship ended in Yellowstone lake, they eventually torched the ship, making it warm haha. So the S.S. Waters and Mr. Waters business was stopped at the lake.

    • Monica – I would put this information into the “Specialized Knowledge”. I could be wrong, but I think that the WWWsH is something that is much more generally known by the average searcher – JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        Is knowing the distance from Earth to the Sun specialized knowledge? or the speed of light?
        Do you or most folks know that info off the top of your head?
        Is knowing a little history of a place, millions visit each year, specialized knowledge if I personally never visit the place?

        I think specialized refer to “advance knowledge” in any subject; such as advance mathematics to determine those above distances.
        But is the idea of simply refreshing what we should have known of or simply forgot or never knew of… specialized in anyway?

        ~ “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

        “And I have no expectations.”
        Could it be fenn means he can’t predict what anyone knows or not, and the book could point to what we may need to “learn”

        How many here didn’t truly know the difference between Clovis and Folsom before reading the book and/or about the chase? Does that new knowledge become ‘specialized knowledge’ and shouldn’t be usable?

        • Seeker;

          It seems as though I would have to answer “NO” to almost every question you posed. Maybe knowing about E.C.S.S.
          Waters ship is not as specialized as I thought. See, we learn something every day. That is one thing I learned. Will it get me any closer to finding Indulgence – Who knows? It might help, or it might just open it up to even more questions – JDA

          • I file the comment under useless clues, idea, myself.
            I my mind it simply says; use the book… if there’s something in it you don’t know about.. ya can google it.
            Whether that is a waste of time or not, is to be determined.

      • “No time spent in thought is wasted and nothing is too small to know, so one should not let knowing a little bit be a substitute for learning more.”

        I think Zap posted this a few days ago…and I’ve posted this before, along with others in the past. Fenn tells us we need to *learn* wwwh… or the game is over before it starts. Fenn has gifted us with tons of stories packed with tidbits that I’m sure a lot of folks would never have known or read about if not offered by him at the time. I think his [specialized knowledge] comment was a generalized idea to keep things fairly basic. Sure ken… why haven’t you paid attention to that !

    • Here are some ideas anyone can look into, Warm Springs Montana has several ponds that stop bad water from the copper mine’s and killing the trout in the Clark fork river……. Their is the Gallatin river in Montana after leaving the canyon it forks out into several small stream in the flat lands at Gallatin Gateway by Boseman, it’s said that the waters warm rapidly and it’s not very good fishing for trout …. Also in New Mexico going toward Hermit’s Peak from Las Vegas N.M. not Nevada, at the beginning of that canyon are some hot spring tubs , I know we are looking for warm, well one of the tubs read; Not so hot of a hot springs, I would call that warm. One more, find the exact place Fenn soaked because all boy like to pee in the water, I know I have six boy’s , the little punks. LOL

  15. If “several” have figured out the first few clues. Seems unlikely that wwwh is anything other than Madison junction.

    • Well its possible there are several. West Yellowstone or Madison junction both work for me. WWWH summer waters. maybe just call it West Yellowstone. I guess for now only FF knows. I am leaving being wrong
      open for myself.

  16. ok been doing some reading, how about Chama River its almost an hr drive from fenns house and the river runs red or El RITO pink or red mountains.

      • Did you mean where WARM waters halt?
        I think your question leaves out a very important qualifier.
        Don’t assume those waters are warm unless you took a swim there.

  17. Seeker,
    Response to the NM fishing regs comment.
    Fair point.
    I’m still going with the SWT (Special Trout Waters) and Warm waters angle in NM.
    Good luck and stay safe.

    • Tarheel,

      It might be a fair point… But it always been a curiosity to me that fenn may have not known /guess how extended the chase would reach in a short time of…what 2 years-?- in.

      That could give some more credence to the thought of why NM could be where the chest lays in wait. And the other things I mentioned in the above post.
      In which case… IF fenn was thinking about the poem as rivers, creeks, waters, which at first glance it seem to be…
      Hey, an angler and his stories of fishing with dad, being a fishing guide at 13, tells us he stuck at age 13, his lures made by hand… etc.
      I have a hard time arguing against NM fishing Guide as part of the “learning” what/where WWsH is about… with all the other things we know of.. from the book.
      However;
      Like I said before… my concern is fenn using government issued information [ even, state government ] as the learning tool to get that information.

      LOL but then again, NM [ SF ] is the only place the book was/is sold, right? And no mountains of any other city or state were mentioned to be north of: except, SF. Where the author lives.

      There’s a lot to say about NM being the top contender… it does limit the area to be 8.25 miles north or the northern point of SF and possibly below CO.
      I don’t know the sq. miles of this area within the RM’s there… lol… but that is shoe-box sizes compared to the whole range… even with Canada ~ poof.

      It does make some sense WWsH stops at the border, idea.
      Only if analyzing everything… the comment, there are many WWsH in the RM’s and nearly all are N of SF. is still a thorn in my side. For “nearly all” to be “IN” NM… The idea of the “RM’s” really doesn’t pan out to say ‘only’ NM, idea.

      I guess I’d need something in the poem [ other than the idea of END to mean border or state line ] to boost that confidence level for WWsH being; nailed down.

      • Seeker,
        Good point, again.
        Your comment of FF not thinking the chase would go on so long is one of my thoughts as well.

        The picture on page 145 and 146 in the TTOTC has a man (FF?) looking up at a nest/bird with a dark sky or wall background? Also the man has waders on and the trees have been cut down. I believe the cut down trees are a hint at an actual place which was relevant at the time the book was written, but may not be relevant to a searcher looking now because of the forest growth over the last decade. So I think you are right by saying that FF did not think the chase would go on so long and “some” hints were meant for the time the book was written.
        Through my research, over most of the last 10 years, I recently came across info which stated an area had been cut as a fire break. This was done next to my final solve….refined with numerous BOTG’s and years of research. This area was cut within approximately 1 1/2 years of the book coming out.
        Regardless of “my” solve, I think the picture is relevant as a hint and relates to an area logged before the story was written and book was released.
        This may help others…or not.
        Good luck and stay safe.

        • Hi Tarheel Searcher;

          Instead of a forest that might have been clear-cut – Maybe the picture is just indicating that it is an area that has no visual obstructions – an open vista. Just an idea – JDA

          • I agree Mr. JDA – some place, somewhere out there where we can see the stars. Alot of bluffs going on around the blogs right now – sure would help to have a clear view. You think anyone is ever gonna get this pinned down, find that magic spot, and be able to yell “Eureka?”

        • Hi Tar, I never saw Chase hints in this picture. To me it is about another treasure. FF’s mother is waiting in the moon, father to join her soon, his life’s labors done. The waders are a personal note between them, a joke perhaps, about the work and joys they shared in Montana summers. FF is telling a story about the love between his mother and father. Its appropriate to the chapter.
          IMO

        • Tarheel,

          Just for clarification… my post wasn’t about the longevity of the clues / chase… but more to the idea of how quick folks pickup on the challenge.

          Going from [ a few 100 to start and climbing to thousands in a short time… 2 years ish.

          Also; I recall a ATF where fenn look at GE of his place and stated it it looks the same. I can’t remember the exact wording to look it up.. or it could have been a video. But I recall it was something like that.

          • If it indicates an open treeless area and possibly buried.
            I had thought about having to follow maybe 3 or 4 small
            white slabs somewhere and flipping them over and
            probe 4 to 5 inches deep under them. A 22 R t-handle
            cleaning rod first section in your back pack would come in handy. Like the picture where he points his foot
            at one of those slabs at you know where. It would be
            marked some how. Best guess flip over smaller slab
            one that’s easy to flip over. Or track them in a direction
            towards the chest.
            Prepare for anything I guess.
            Look those rocks way over there look like three Baby Ruth. just example not that it would be the case.
            I guess I will read the books again and keep looking
            for what I am missing to find it in one trip.
            Well Stay Safe in them there mountains.

  18. My dear Watson, upon arriving at Paddington Station prior to my overland to the freighter, someone left a downloaded and printed copy of The Catalog Of Thermal Waters In New Mexico by The New Mexico Bureau Of Mines & Mineral Resoures. It was left in my berth with narry a note but has proved to be most enlightening as to my inquiry of the temperatures of the water courses without having to even get my big toe wet.

    Oh…..how marvelous Watson….simply marvelous.

    • So Holmes, Are the berthing waters as such for a new born?
      I would not trust any catalog documents (especially government docs) to prove your hypothesis.
      I suggest you dive in head 1st otherwise you are relying on possible lying or anothers POT point of temperature. Trust in others accounts lead to failure.
      I implore you to find out for yourself. Find, hold and fire the smoking gun otherwise it’s just a paperweight.

    • How can you know that you received a catalog in your ship’s berth upon arriving in London a hundred 19th-century horsey-miles from your train?

  19. Okay hear me all and listen good……….This was brought to my attention today and want to know if anyone else has looked into this WWWH: The River of No Return

  20. The River of No Return. Think about it……WWWH could be where danger starts, “finding where the edges are” I believe is the clue in TTOTC, so No Return sound like where like where warm waters halt to me. The River of No Return runs a short distance along the Idaho/Montana border and heads for the Columbia River.

    BDM

    • At this point since no one has found the indulgence yet it’s as good a guess as any. Get some BOTG and enjoy a great hike! I’ll leave that area to you. I have my own WWWH that needs exploring in September.

    • I’m at a loss New Way of Thinking,
      I can’t find this river: The River of No Return on Google Maps or earth.
      The Moyie River is near the border and runs through “Good Grief” Idaho.
      Help!

      • Formal Name is the Salmon River. Look up “Salmon, Idaho.” Headwaters are in Montana and the original home to the Shoshone Indians

        • Actually The River of No Return in the “Middle Fork of the Salmon River” Maybe FF wants to be in the middle again?????

        • I’m still at a loss after research NWoT.
          I do think old ways back in 2011 or 2012 got searchers within 200′ not in Idaho.
          keep at it though.

  21. Where warm waters halt.
    Let’s see it is above 5000ft and below? ( don’t recall sry )
    5000ft being the base altitude of most of the Rockies.
    So imho wwwh lies where the snow line stops. Any mountains with snow in the warmer seasons?

    In my mind’s eye, I see a route to this area.
    Perhaps a road?? Whoa, what? Ummm water flows, lava flows Traffic flows.
    I must be thinking too hard, I smell wood burning lol.

    HDD

    • hmmm…..sounds like someone knows more then they’re letting on. I wonder if that road does not allow motorized vehicles. Best park at the church, and head to the “no trespassing gate” and on, to the burning, (or burnt) wood. To around 8008′.lol,,,…

  22. What about “Father on the Banco/” Banco is also the definition to the first poem in TTOTC. Most interesting is the definition in Websters Dictionary ” channel of a river cut off and left dry by the shifting of its course” NOW that sounds like WWWH.

    What do you think?

  23. I think people should try thinking broadly about what “warm waters” might be, might represent,
    or might be represented by. Forrest, do you agree?

  24. In my opinion the two main reasons why longtime searchers have not found the correct WWWH is: (1) their lack of knowledge of Rocky Mt. geography, and (2) their lack of imagination.

    Lack of imagination is not a mortal sin. But unwillingness to learn geography reeks of mental laziness; it also reeks of a smug presumption that Fenn’s words about geographic knowledge is irrelevant.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  25. so does anyone know where this India Girl says Warm Water halt is? I keep finding talks about it, but wasn’t sure if her thought was shared publicly ..thanks

    • Linda;

      The Little Girl… was a made-up person by Jenny over on her site. There is no Little Girl In India – therefore, “she” never said WWWsH is.

      Go to http://www.TarryScant.com and type in “Little girl” and you will get a bunch of posts that should help you. Hope this helps – JDA

      • thank you very much JDA, yes now I can stop thinking some has the first clue. and back to my work..
        have a great day yall and a better weekend.

        • You are welcome. Some do have or had the first clue. Forrest has said several times that people (searchers) have been within 200′ and 500′ – therefore, they probably have solved at least one clue. Forrest has also said that people have solved the first two clues, and even once said that they have probably solved the first four clues, although he was not sure. – JDA

  26. The first stanza in poem narrows down the area of the Rocky Mountains to a much smaller area , we are to narrow down this area to the place that WWH`s … the poem and TTOTC give the first area and a good map and/or GE helps find WWWH`s . IMO

    • JPE – These are very encompassing and vague statements . Can you put a bit more meat on the bone? WHAT in stanza, in your opinion, narrows the search area of the Rocky Mountains? What is there in stanza #1 that says it is in NM, CO, WY or MT? I don’t see anything.

      Same say “New and Old” = NM. Some say Treasure = MT the treasure state. These seem pretty obscure to me.

      What “In the poem” or “TToTC” or GE helps with WWWsH? Broad statements, nothing to back them up. Can you help us please? – JDA

      • Hello jda. The poem does not help with locating wwwh. Because I am botg this weekend, probably the last time, I will share this. Go to “I’m getting dizzy…” communication from Mr. Fenn. If I’m right, it takes you from wwwh along maybe 2/3 of our physical journey. I’ve been locked on this from the beginning. It also hints at how to unlock the poem architecture.

        • Hi Sean;

          Good luck with your BOTG. Hope you find all that you seek.

          I have always liked this SB. Makes one wonder why he added it to OUAW revised as the only new chapter. I think that the 10′ ladder plays a role in finding Indulgence. Is there other important info included? Not sure, but I will keep looking. JDA

          • JDA,
            Do you think we need a 10 ft ladder and a shadow to find indulgence?
            I can possibly see maybe a 10 ft incline with rock steps to the blaze but a ladder ???

          • Interpretation – Imagination. Maybe not a ten foot ladder, but how about a 10′ tall tree? How about a hint of 10′ up on a shelf/plateau of some kind? What is “between the lines” that we need to know? – JDA

          • Again Jake, it’s not that you really need these things with you. They are part of the story that can be figured out very easily if you have the time, date, and spot. It’s the distance that we are interested in.

            For me JDA, it’s a 7′ stick shaped like a “Y”. Sun at 5 degrees creates an 80′ shadow. (on 8/22). All stems from Skippy, standing up, knowlege, 2 people can keep….etc…and is done at the 8th clue. Where I think a bell is buried.

  27. In reply to JDA , First of all , i am new here to the blog , love to read all the comments . i guess i was a little short on information in the above statement , i will do better , NOW , we need to find THE place WWWH`s in a huge area of land so FF narrowed that down for us in stanza #1 , just stay with me here , ok , AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERE , we must think of places he has went alone , places he has been that he fell in love with AND wanted to leave his bones . i believe his dad showed him this place for the first time on one of their summer trips but FF has been back a few times by himself before and after his father died , [ TWO PEOPLE CAN KEEP A SECRET IF ONE OF THEM IS DEAD ] i guess my point is that IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP . this is just my opinion , an example of what 1st stanza is there for , then use a good map and/or GE to pin point WWWH`s

    • JPE – Welcome to the chase. Hope you have fun.

      You say: ” i guess my point is that IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP . ” Seems to me to be a BIG step in logic. I agree that Forrest’s father MAY have shown him THE place – But why does it have to be Yellowstone? Yellowstone just seems a bit too obvious to me. The trip from Texas to YNP is 1600 miles. It took four days. They needed to stop at least three times (Not counting gas and bathroom breaks) I am sure that they had a couple of over-night camping spots where they liked to stop, fish, refresh, stretch their legs etc. These stops could have been in NM. Colorado or in Wyoming. 1600 divided by 3 = about 533 miles per day. This would make stops in Amarillo. Denver, and Casper. If four stops were made Maybe Amarillo, Colorado Springs, Ft. Collins, CO or Laramie, WY, and Lander WY. (All just guesses.
      There are lots of pretty areas to over-night camp between Denver and YNP. Just something to think about. Again, For me, YNP is just TOO obvious – Good luck to Ya’ and again, welcome to the search – JDA

      • “Too obvious” doesn’t have to automatically disqualify a place. At the same time, though, “too obvious” doesn’t have to guarantee the place. Especially since what is “obvious” to one entity may not be obvious to
        all entities. Gee. All the clues still have to work together and make sense to FF and also, by extension, to his theoretical average person capable of solving the poem correctly. In other words, the poem may only have to make absolute logical sense to FF (his trove, his rules).
        I happen to believe that the poem should be correctly solvable by a person of “sorta-average” intelligence who isn’t afraid to use a dictionary, and has a lot of perseverance. But I also think that the TC will be found less than a few years from now, so anyone seriously planning to find it should tarry scant in solving the poem. As always, in my opinion.

    • *** *** *** ***
      JPE suggested – i believe his dad showed him this place for the first time on one of their summer trips but FF has been back a few times by himself before and after his father died . . . . IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP”
      **** **** ****

      ff’s own backstory is something you (we) can’t un-know once we know it.

      I wonder, though, about how much decisive weight it can (or should) be allowed to swing in reading the poem. Given that, being in the book not the poem, it’s really only a hint.

      If it’s so, it’s An Awful Big Hint – a “critical hint” if you will – that can actually “point you toward the treasure chest.” And at the same time a person *without* ff’s own backstory would be severely disadvantaged.

      But the whole hint/clue thing has always been squishy ground. And as I said at the beginning, once we start learning places he’s been, it’s practically impossible to pretend we can’t see them.

      Jake

  28. JDA , one more thing , 1st stanza does not narrow down WWWH , it narrows down the the hiding spot but we will find that WWWH is in the same area.

    • A agree that we will find WWWsH in the area of search – we just disagree as to where that search area is. MANY searchers like the YNP area, I do not – 🙂 JDA

    • JPE,

      The first stanza you said “narrows down the hiding spot”, how is that so, when we were told “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.

      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/s.” f

      What part of stanza one that narrows down the hiding spot? I don’t see even a remote suggestion in that stanza that narrows down the hiding spot.

      IMO the first stanza is an intro to what he did, keeping a secret, and will give hints in the remaining 5 stanzas to find the chest that contains new and old gold. There is nothing in the first stanza that points to a geographical place, nor are there any directions given.

      Forrest in the beginning said at the link above, “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure.”f IMO the first stanza has the few words that will not help.

      Just Say’n

        • FD,

          Debatable, there are hints and clues in the poem. Just go’n by the poem, “And hint of riches new and old.” Maybe he couldn’t work in the word “clue” in the poem.

          • Yes, it would seem that when f used “hint” in the first stanza that would mean the hint is right there, not somewhere else.

            Just like when he used “Begin” to signify the beginning clue.

      • So, CharlieM, you think Forrest, an accomplished wordsmith and imaginative writer, spent 15 years crafting a poem and left the 1st stanza as an unimaginative literal introduction?

        IMO the first stanza metaphorically frames the entire poem and will turn out to have significant relevance to the solution. In what way, I can’t say (as in I don’t know) but there are words that will relate to (add to) the solution. “alone in there”, “bold”, “hint of” “new and old” . If nothing in your solve can be metaphorically associated with the first stanza, then you probably need a new solve.

        mBG

      • I’m with FD. He also said not to discount any of the nouns. Doesn’t matter, the first stanza is just as important as the rest. And again, the hints are just as important as the clues, if not more so.

  29. Ok , i believe the first stanza is a big hint to where to look for the first clue . when i very first heard about the chase i had no idea where to start , i have never been to any of the search states , so there i was looking at the map in TFTW of Rocky Mountains thinking [ you got to be kidding me ] but after reading poem many times and TTOTC a few times i looked back to the map and GE , for ME , stanza # 1 is saying that in all of the Rocky`s there is a place that HE went alone more than any other place and i think he was a kid , he did say that he is [ almost umbilically connected to the place ] . i was drawn to West Yellowstone and YNP and yes i have been taken in other directions but have always came back to WHERE I STARTED . just sayin

      • Aaron , hi , i have set at a computer for many hours [ i expect much as any searcher ] i have read the poem and book many times and looked at maps till i was seeing double and i can`t think of the chest being anywhere but in one stretch of roadway [ thats just a way to put it ] I truly believe it is somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road . am i dreaming ? I DON`T THINK SO

        • JPE, We are translating the poem in a similar fashion I think, but are in different areas. I have searched up and down the area you are looking on though. I’m headed to my spot this weekend 🙂

          • Hi Aaron,

            “somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road” – be careful there – too many hungry grizzlies (especially if you go 500 ft out of trails). They don’t like visitors 🙂
            Good luck and be safe 🙂

          • Thanks Andy, by the way that is JPE that is “somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road”. I’m going a little further than 500′ from a road, but also in grizzly territory. There will be two of us both with bear spray.

  30. We have been working hard on finding explanations for Forrest Fenn’s poem. During winter 18/19 we’ve got our solution – it is consistent and quite simple.
    We were (and still are) that conviced about it, that we planned and undertook a treasure-hunting-expedition in New Mexico in May 19. This was not a one-day-trip for us – we live in Switzerland! Four guys of us had some fun and exciting days in the Rocky Mountains. Our goal was to find the last clue (we know that it is necessary to be on site for that) – and of course – to find the treasure.

    Unfortunately we didn’t find it. We underestimated the weather in May in the mountains of New Mexico. There was still too much melting water in ‚our‘ canyon and we even got some snowfall. Althought we reached the place that we wanted, it was not possible to search there as intensive as it would have been necessary.

    We really would like to go back for another attempt. But for us it’s just too expensive and time-consuming to go for another searching-expedition.

    So we decided to share our solution with the community in this blog. We will add some Videos that describes it clue by clue – and parallel we complete our treasure map step by step. We hope to give some inspiration. And we hope to get a kickback from the one who finds the treasure due to our solution :-).

    We just published our solution about ‘where warm waters halt’ on our site. Have a look on our site https://www.get-it-now.ch

    Be careful when you search along our solution at ‚our place‘. We think that the place is not really too dangerous, but there can obviously bee too much water after the snowmelt and after heavy rainfalls.

      • Yes – it’s a great area – we enjoyed it during our treasure-hunting expedition in New Mexico very much. But for us it’s “only” the starting-point for our treasure map. Our way leads us further south.

        We just published our solution-video no 4 with our guess about what should be taken which canyon down and about the home of brown. Have fun and good luck 🙂 !

  31. I made it to the center of the Caldera, as I thought it was there, but the only thing I found were elk bones scattered about.

    Good Luck,

    BDM

    • Sorry you didn’t find what you sought, but not everyone can find an elk skeleton – So, you found something that most can not 🙂 JDA

  32. While looking in YHP in Ocher Springs Area I found a complete Buffalo Skull, no arrowhead embedded, but all the same pretty neat.

    BDM

  33. I think I have a new idea on WWWH.

    I had planned to spend the summer in my search location until I came home with the TC. Unfortunately, a family issue kept me from leaving until this month. As I was firming up plans last night, I learned something that I think may interest some of you, regarding Where Warm Waters Halt.

    I feel certain about my WWWH and my HOB. But, I have discovered that my WWWH fits a different description of WWWH in addition to the reason I have chosen it as my personal WWWH. It fits for two reasons. Pretty sure I’ve never heard this definition before.

    Apparently there is an international system of classifying calm verses rapid water. This is important to know if you are kayaking or rafting in a river or stream. There are six different classes of water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_scale_of_river_difficulty All of the classes are assigned a number I-IV. Each is also given a color code. Level V is red. I notice that each classification color is a warm color except for level I which is green. (think green verses red street lights-Eric Sloan waiting for the light to change). So anyway; one definition of “warm” can relate to a color that is warm. So I find it interesting to apply this information to the sentence “Begin it where warm waters halt”. There is actually more to the word halt used here, if I am right. But, focusing on strictly the classification of river rapids (because I can’t share what else I believe about “halt”), lets look at how the river classification would define this sentence. If a river is classified as anything but calm waters which could be considered halted, the color classification would be “warm” (magenta, red, orange, yellow). But, if the river is classified as green, it would not be warm. It would be cool. So if you look at a river where the rapid water which is classified as a warm color, and you see it suddenly change to calm water, it would then be classified as green. So when warm (classification) turns to calm waters, you could say that warm waters halted. I think this requires no stretching of any definitions. It is simple! Rapid waters which are classified as warm will halt when they calm and thus become not warmly classified because calm waters are classified as green.

    Not that I rely upon the opinion of the “little girl in India”, but it is interesting to note that this classification system is International; meaning that the little girl in India could know this information if she had studied rivers.

    I think this

    • I originally agreed with this assessment and was why I was under the impression that WWWH was Warm Springs right below Warm Springs Cliff in the heart of Dinosaur National Monument. It meets the Yampa River. It is literally due south of Browns Park NWR. That river is no place for the Meek as it is a Class IV rapid going down the canton if I remember correctly. I did some research of that area and back in the 70s there was a huge rock avalanche increasing the water depth. They stated typically every 1000 years there is a huge rock slide that changes the area and water. Due to Fenns comment about it might change in the future (not exact words), I took this as heavy loads and water high.

      Taking the canyon down following the rapid, the river draws nigh to the left, wrapping around Jenny Lind Rock to the upside down Omega symbol (Horse shoe looking at it). This leads you to Pool Creek (There’ll be no paddle up your creek) to go along with the Jenny Lind Rock avalanche. Hear me all and listen good I took to mean Whispering Cave area

      • I see what you are saying James. But personally, I believe “No Place For The Meek” is not asking us to subjectively choose a place that is not for the meek to venture. I believe the entire poem means exactly what it says, and I believe it guides us without us subjectively deciding anything. I think it gives us precise instructions. Meek can mean Pacific. In my opinion, Meek means Pacific. As in, the water that drains from this area does not end up in the Pacific. Just my opinion of course.

    • Flutterby,
      That’s been my definition of WWWH from the beginning and I believe that f describes the exact location in TTOTC.

    • I like that this gives a backwards interpretation. Warm waters halt when they become calm. Begin it where white waters halt. Fun interpretation.

    • Flutterby – Great observation!

      Forrest’s corresponding description, IMO:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2019/04/28/forrest-gets-mail-20/#comment-764778

      Slow and green and cold in the bends, there on the Madison River. Where the big Brown and Rainbow lunkers hide in the ‘buckets’. Or, so my fly fishing librarian friend experienced, yesterday morning, while floating the bends below the S-curve at Silver Creek in Idaho. Awesome trico hatch, Forrest! But she caught the bigguns, late morning, using a hopper and a well placed cast.

  34. As always, apologies if this has been discussed. What if WWWH is the source of the Missouri River.

    My reasoning: FF has quoted multiple times the T.S. Eliot lines “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time.”

    The following lines in the T.S. Eliot poem go: Through the unknown, unremembered gate, when the last of earth left to discover is that which was the beginning; AT THE SOURCE OF THE LONGEST RIVER
    the voice of the hidden waterfall
    And the children in the apple-tree.

    Longest river is the Missouri, so where is there a waterfall near it’s source?

    Thoughts

    • Utmost Headwaters of the Missouri is Browers Spring in Hell Roaring Canyon at 44° 33.025’N 111° 28.348’W ( there is an informative google earth community post nearby on google earth)

      Unless you want to go by name, then look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Headwaters_State_Park

      That article also describes Lemhi Pass which was considered the source for a while. (at the headwaters of Trail Creek 44° 59.012’N 113° 26.435’W)

      mBG

      • Of course now you are going to have to go to Lillian Lake (Forrest’s Mother’s name) which is on hell roaring creek below the headwaters.

        mBG

    • The Headwaters State Park, and the source of the Missouri is a serene spot. It is below 5000 feet, and following the Missouri takes you even lower in elevation unless you leave the river at some point way downstream and head up into one of the mountainous areas in the Helena National Forest.

  35. What if warm also means = Mid or middle
    (deduced from: warm is middle of 2 “w” words plus also mid sentence of Begin and Halt)
    Then perhaps some options could be:
    *Middle fork of a river
    *Middle river
    *Middle creek (lot of these but needs a canyon like Middle Creek in yellowstone or near Hole in the Wall or near Vail etc.)
    *Mid-way geyser basin
    *Or middle plus “ace in the hole” (alone in there) could be Firehole midway maybe?

    Just thinking only of poem words only here.

  36. Ever notice that on the Firehole there is a upper lip curve or like a ‘double omicron’ midway?

    Halt synonym = end = point like a drawing point of a pencil?
    Didn’t Forrest say he liked fishing in river bends?
    Aren’t some of those also what some might call ‘points.’
    Like Steamboat point for example?

  37. Hi All;

    I have had several different places where Warm Waters Halted. Most have involved a smaller body of water (A stream or creek or some-such) joining a larger body of water – a river or lake.

    This afternoon I thought about another interpretation. What if TWO little streams – having possibly one source, ended at a lake or river or somewhere. Wouldn’t that be warm water(S) halting? HUMMM – Has possibilities – JDA

    • Ok… has this kind of idea been thrown around before when I wasn’t looking?

      You say you have had “several different places where warm waters halted” – Fenn has said “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt…”

      So my wondering goes like this:
      What if you take your very favorite warm waters halt, follow it to it’s conclusion because it’s PERFECT – but when you go there, no chest. (Sound familiar? Me too.) Your friend has a warm waters halt of similar “type” but different location. He thinks it’s PERFECT – but when he goes there, no chest. So what if each of you, going through the poem line by line, successfully found ONE CLUE. Once through the poem = 1 clue. So with this line of thinking there would be NINE places where warm waters halt (as well as the locations indicated by the lines that follow), you would have to know where each general solve location is, and something about them (locations/names/historys/geographys) will help you to figure out how to follow them precisely…

      Too complicated?

      -even

  38. frank, on a more serious note, I think you have to drive up the “canyon down” to get to WWWH possibly coming from the HOB. But there may be multiple ways to get to WWWH. It’s possible you drive by or thru some of the clues.
    I don’t think it matters where you came from or how you get to WWWH.
    The most import thing is you get there.
    I’ll put this over on the WWWH page where it belongs.

      • I think it would be a good question to ask Fenn although he probably wouldn’t answer.
        Did you drive by or thru any of the clues on the way to WWWH?

        • Jake I answered your question at what are we looking for- the clues start at wwwh from there – from wwh there are no clues south of or east of wwwh the clues go from the east to the west to the north – so he drove by the clues till he got to the last clue in the wood where he parked- wwwh is the start of all the clues

  39. Been away for a while, changed residences…. so I haven’t kept up, but got to wondering if anyone has considered if WWWH is a reference to an altitude? I think the highest hot spring in the U.S. might be Conundrum Hot Springs in Colorado… at 10,200′ I’m told. Now where have we heard 10’200′ before?

    • Conundrum Hot Springs is at 11,200. But I don’t think the elevation limits necessarily apply to the clues, but definitely apply to the treasure itself. There is also debate as to whether WWWH has to be reachable by an 80 year old. Some interpret Forrest saying he followed the clues as meaning he physically went to every clue, other focus on him saying one must follow them, at least in your mind. (not exact quotes, obviously)

      mBG

      • mBG;

        Look at this link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

        “I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

        When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

        Thank you Curtis

        The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege”.f

        Question posted 6/20/2014:

        mBG; this tells me that Forrest did, in fact, have to walk all of the clues. Were I you, I might reconsider a solve that requires a 79 or 80 YOM to hike to 11,200′ JMO – JDA

        • Yeah, I’ve see that quite a few times.

          That ATF can be interpreted in different ways. It could actually be a tricky, almost non-answer. It says they *should* be followed in order, not specifically that you MUST be physically at each clue in order. Even though the question was clearly asked, the answer was not necessarily addressed precisely to the question.

          Consider the following ATF:
          Q. When you wrote the poem, did you start with the first clue or the ninth?
          A. ” I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.” (https://thefenndiagrams.com/q-a-with-fenn/fourth/)

          … At least in their mind ….

          That leads one to believe that you can physically skip clues.

          Personally, I think WWWH is 80 yo accessible for other reasons (simplicity and cleanliness of the puzzle), but I don’t totally discount potential solves where it is not.

          mBG

          • JDA,
            did you not see this, or just decline to respond? You use that ATF incorrectly a lot to make YOUR point, not Forrest’s. I’ve pointed that out before, and you continue to not respond, and use your (IMO) incorrect interpretation.

            Just Sayin’

            mBG

    • Forest’s scrapbooks per month from Sept 2018 thru Sept 2019 have been 18 in 13 months, or 1.38 per month.
      In October 2019, 15 scrapbooks.
      As of Nov 18th, 13 scrapbooks.
      Al this activity after your comment on October 2, 2019 at 5:24 pm.
      How many of the October 2019 SBs were posted before your comment ?

  40. Looking for your thoughts on Old Faithful possible being the spot where Warm Waters Halt.

    It seems possible to begin at Old Faithful and then take it down the Firehole River.

    How far or to where who knows.

    • Great Idea and Good Luck. I had Old Faithful as WWWH also. My “Home of Brown” was the old Iron Bridge along Freight Road and yes Freight Road was my “Heavy Loads.” Ultimately I gave up because of the statement made by ff that all you need is the poem. Anyway, my solution found the “Blaze” at Grand Prismatic Spring. There is a small trail to the south that ends looking over the valley. Beautiful place, but no bronze box!!! If you Google Earth over this area you will see hidden over the hill is a tarp covering the ground. Found out that this area has been searched by a lot of people.

  41. “Begin it where warm waters halt’. “If you don’t know ‘where warm water halts,’ Fenn said, “you don’t have anything.” (4/24/14)

    “You don’t have anything.” = nothing = Zero = WWW IMO.

    Coke Zero, 0°C, 32°F, Japanese Zero, Z-row, who knows? Coke Zero probably not because he doesn’t like diet drinks if memory serves.

    Pinatubocharlie

  42. What do you think????

    Certainly FF knew when he wrote the poem that most people would grab a map, but do you need a map?

    FF said if you want to find the treasure that everything you need is in the poem for all to see and to read his book and think. FF did not say to use a map. In fact in reference to a map he did say: “What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.”

    Isn’t FF telling us not to use a map?

    What do you think this statement means?????

    • New way of thinking:

      You say: “FF did not say to use a map” i I think that you are wrong. Forrest mentions using a map many times. Look at SB – 62 as an example:

      APRIL 2014
      “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map”.f

      Go to Tarryscat,com and put in map and you will get many many more examples where Forrest has said to use a map, to marry the poem to a map, that the poem is a map etc. JDA

  43. “Begin it where warm waters halt”
    Where does warm water halt (stop,freeze)?
    It halts when it freezes, which is at 32°.
    32° Longitude, or the 32nd Parallel goes through New Mexico. It’s the southern line border between Texas and New Mexico.

    Then follow the clues. I’ve read in the other forum people talking about “ghosts” and n”np place for the meek”. No one has brought up the ghost town in New Mexico named “Meek”. It is about 15 miles NE of Lincoln. Another point on the trail.

    • I have heard other people say warm waters halt when it freezes. Doesn’t the water need to be warm to begin with? Many people that are talking about water freezing are referring to cold water freezing…

  44. A lot of people are looking in Yellowstone for some reason. If they are set on the treasure being in that area, Glacier National Park is a much better choice.
    1) Warm waters halt when they freeze and become glaciers.
    2) There is “Loneman Mountain” to cover “As I have gone alone in there.”
    3) Drive through on “Going to the Sun” road. The sun is about the biggest blaze we can see from Earth.
    4) You have Mt. Cleveland (home of brown, Cleveland Browns), and right next door you have Mt. Brown.
    5) A little bit south in the park you have Mt. Heavy Runner for “Heavy Loads and Water High”.
    6) “Bishop’s Cap” is right there for “Take the chest and go in peace”.
    7) And we have “Chief Mountain” if “you are a brave and in the wood”.
    8) “So hear me all and listen good” at Amphitheater Mountain in Glacier National Park. It’s beautiful I hear.

    Of course, none of these solves are better than anyone else’s, unless they lead to the gold.
    Some people don’t use common sense though. A man from Pennsylvania was fined for digging a swimming pool sized hole in a national park. He made several trips to dig a hole that big. He said he KNOWS that he was only 3 feet away. He hopes the park service will finish the work so people will stop dying. Seriously? He believes Forrest Fenn dug down to the depth of a swimming pool, say 10 feet, in just 4 hours to hide the treasure? He went there with the chest and a shovel, dug an olympic-sized swimming pool hole, hid the treasure, covered it back up and left? In the matter of four hours? He was so close – just 3 more feet and he would have had it!

  45. Could Old Faithful be the warm waters halt?

    The definition of halt as a noun is something to the effect of coming to a stop, either temporary or permanently.

    Old Faithful (warm waters? average temperature of 204 degrees F.) halts every 35 to 120 minutes for two to five minutes, then repeats the halting process over and over.

    Maybe this has been discussed before, if so I missed the post.

    Looking for additional thoughts and ideas.

    Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down……

    • Jim-
      Of course it could and many folks have explored that possibility. There are, of course hundreds…maybe thousands…maybe tens of thousands of other places that could also be WWWH. If you feel strongly about it and if that place sends you to the remaining eight places in the Poem…and at the end you discover Forrest’s chest, you’ll know you were correct…

  46. I have not read this thread but want to offer some thoughts here. I am no longer able to do the chase since i live in Italy now and not New Mexico. So here is my idea about WWWH. Steam engine trains are what made the state of New Mexico. Forest used to listen to them blow as a kid. There is a thing called a water stop. It is where steam engine trains stop to take on more water (fuel) for the journey. You can google wikipedia and water stops. It is a familiar term. It was first used in England. The British called it a water halt not a water stop. There are many train stations in England that are called by the town or location name and the the word halt. Such as Oxford Halt Station. The are many of these. Google Oxford Halt Station. So, in my humble opinion, WWWH is a Water Halt Station as the Brits would call them – yankees called them water stops.

  47. John Paul,
    I had the very same thought. Interestingly enough, one railroad seemed to fit nicely. The Cumbre & Toltec Scenic RR that runs from Chama, NM to Antonito, CO. The route runs back and forth across the shared border and along the beautiful Toltec Gorge (or valley). I remember FF saying that his trip was 6 hours, though that may not be correct. The train ride is 6 hours one way and makes 2 water stops. The first is in the ghost town of Sublette, but passengers can’t get off at this one. There is another stop near the end, which is on a pretty high cliff and only accessible by that train.

    Just a coincidence, but in the Moby Dickens interview, FF talked about “Grab every Banana”. He said his father told him, “The train doesn’t go by that tree but one time, so grab every banana ON THE WAY BACK.” It’s at about 20:00 mins in interview. Interestingly, all of the railroad related buildings along the way were/are painted yellow and brown. And it all fits the elevation requirements.

    I am so willing to say that because I have another place in mind that fits the clues, but have to wait till spring (after the snow melts to go.)
    Take Care.
    Matt

  48. Has anyone ever considered the headwaters of the Rio Grande to be WWWH? I’ll explain my thinking on this one. Obviously, the headwaters would be where it starts or begins. But the poem says “begin *it*”. So if you look up the definition of the word “it”, the first definition says; used to reffer to something previously mentioned or easily identified. Well, the translation of Rio Grande is “Big River”, so it would be easily identified. The Rio Grande is a huge river. It starts in southwest Colorado and flows all the way down to Mexico and out into the Gulf. And it actually flows right through Santa Fe where Forrest lives. And remember what he said about WWWH. He said, “You have to find *my* warm waters.” So I think he means warm as in close to him. So if you followed the Rio Grande from Santa Fe, the Rio Grande would end or halt at it’s headwaters in Colorado. If that’s WWWH, I think I may know where the chest would be because I think I’ve solved a couple of more clues in that direction. I can link a GE image to where I think the chest is if anyone wants me to.

  49. Lets look at the BIG picture , the lower geyser basin in YNP definitely has warm waters , lots of it [ all the geysers in that BIG basin ] but where does the warm water halt ? it all pretty much halts when it runs into the FIREHOLE river . I know I know , that area has been searched many many times , but if you take the firehole canyon DOWN [which is north ] you can see HOB right in front of you . just LOOK at the big picture . IMO

  50. Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
    “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

    Many:
    1 consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number
    2 being one of a large but indefinite number

    So, a large number of folks found WWWH but didn’t it.
    Sounds like a hot tourist spot.

  51. Hello All,

    I have not had the chance to read this thread yet either nut had a question worth posing:

    Has anyone considered the possibility that WWWH refers to a latitude line corresponding to the temperature where water would no longer be considered warm (namely 37 degrees on the low end and 40 on the high end)? This would certainly be a definitive starting point.

    -Ann

  52. What if there were two perfect places that fit
    WWWH, and you could start at one and
    follow the clues back to the other one. You
    would essentially begin it where warm waters halt,
    and halt it where warm waters begin. Could
    that explain why you have to know where to
    begin? So you’ll know the end when you get there?
    Throw me some chum, it’s lonely down here on
    the bottom. LOL

    • bottom feeder,

      my current /general solve/ is not complete but follows a sort of logic not far off from yours – though in mine, you would not likely work out the second WWWH location without finding the first and following clues. different way of looking at it than some. do not think that necessarily means you are wrong.

      -even

  53. WWWH is a single location. The map clearly shows this point and also the resting point of indulgence. The TC location is near water but by no means in it. 200 feet from a road and 500 feet from a walking track. The blaze points the way to it and the HOB is at the TC location. Hence “Put in below the Home of Brown” being quite literal. All of the clues are at face value and no decifering is required. All you need is a good map and the poem. The best Clue Forrest has shared was Marry the Poem to the map. Look up the word marry. Happy hunting all.

  54. So much to keep track of down here, I can’t
    find the quote, but didn’t Forrest say something
    like you begin by getting in your car and going
    to where WWH? But he doesn’t actually say
    “and drive to where WWH”? I’ve got 2 perfect
    WWWH but only one can be driven to, and
    I really like the the other spot. It works really
    well but is too far to walk to or from, and you
    definitely can’t drive there. Those 2 places
    of course, are Isa Lake and the Parting of
    The Waters. Both in Y-oming. Oops, am
    I supposed to keep that secret?

    • You hiked into the parting of the waters?
      Bet that was a far out trip. Both places do
      connect at the Snake River I think. Just not
      at the same place on the river. If each spot
      was considered a ‘Y’, then if you are below
      them then you have been Y’s. Doesn’t
      do much for me tho, cause I go the other
      way and search in Montana. I’m partial to
      the idea of starting in Wyoming and ending
      in Montana, with Yellowstone “ in the middle”.
      (and I have a free place to stay in Mt.)

  55. I believe I’ve figured out where we’ve been going wrong when looking for WWWH. It’s a simple idea that I’m sure hundreds of people have thought of, but they just didn’t take it far enough. That whole first stanza from WWWH to HOB is trying to help you find WWWH. It’s about 3 miles south of HOB. Brown is not a person. He capitalized it to try and help you make the connection between “home” and “brown”. It was actually one of the first few places I looked. But I hadn’t figured out the WWWH part, so I forgot about it. WWWH has nothing to do with warm either. Study those first two lines very very carefully. But if you get frustrated with it and want me to just tell you, I will.

      • New way, take the last two letters of the word “waters” (where warm waters halt) and put them in the word “canyon”. Replace the N and Y with R and S. It gives you the word Carson. It’s Carson Resevoir in Wyoming. The way you know it’s right is from “Put in below HOB” Carson Resevoir is 3 miles south of Recluse, which is HOB.

        • No name 6,
          Why?
          What with the poem or the book implies we need take to letters from a word and more letters seemingly flipped and inserted into that the word you just pulled apart…?

          I mean others have indicate the same method of doing this to decipher clues… Explained how the method works….Yet nobody explains why this is the right method.

          • Seeker, I’m sorry, but if you don’t get it by reading the first two lines, I won’t be able to explain it any better than that. Forrest knew that everyone would assume he was talking about an actual location. But his instructions were meant to be applied to the poem literally. It fits the whole first stanza. “Not far” (because it’s car) “But too far to walk” (again trying to help you with the word car) “Put in below HOB” Carson Resevoir is 3 miles south of Recluse, which is HOB.

          • I get what you’re implying, No Name.
            I don’t get why you’re using that method?
            Something must have indicated you to pull letter from one word and dissect another word and create a name of a place.
            Or ya just pulled the method, idea out of thin air and had a go at it.
            I’m just asking why you approach the method in the first place?

        • I should have just changed a word in the poem to the name of the road I live on… why didn’t I think of this before? thanks NoName, now it all “fits perfectly” 🙂

      • Seeker, I got the idea from reading the first two lines. He’s always said that you only need the poem to find it. So in the poem, where do warm waters halt? It halts at the letters R and S. Then it tells you to take it (R and S) in the canyon down. So if you put R and S in the word canyon on the next line, you get Carson. Then the HOB line is telling you that Carson is below or south of HOB. I believe that to be the town of Recluse because you’ve got the brown recluse spider and people who are described as recluses generally stay at home. I’ll put a GE link so you can see it. https://earth.app.goo.gl/Sm9dzR
        I used the same method on the next stanza as well turning the word “drawing” into the word “drown” and it took me to an interesting place. I’ll link that as well. https://earth.app.goo.gl/tZGQzS. Note the name of the resevoir below Drown Creek. No place for the meek.

        • NoName,

          While your method is interesting, I feel like the two locations you have identified using the method are rather far apart. Are you thinking both are part of a potential solve or were they separate ideas for a possible location? I like the idea of were do warm waters halt in the poem! Not sure about the letter substitution. If there wasn’t a need to transfer the poem onto a map I may be inclined to the more literal (more so than even I have been taking the poem and I probably take t more literal than some here) approach you have implemented. Like most, I struggle to connect the poem directly to a mapped location. And it’s not for lack of options. It’s for lack of a reason why that spot or this spot is THE spot the poem points us to, as opposed to some other spot with similar fitting places. All IMO. If you can answer that, I think you would have a heads up on the rest of us! 🙂

          -Ann

        • NoName6: I’ll start by asking why choose *two* letters at the end of the word “waters”? Why not just one? Or three? And if you want to be truly “literal” with the poem, why don’t you begin (the word) “it” where warms waters halt (s): sit. Or even the “h” of halt (giving “hit”), since the word “waters” ends where “halt” begins. For the former possibility, one might make a connection to the original owner of Forrest’s prized peace pipe: SITting Bull… For the latter, Forrest has made a number of references to baseball, football, golf, and even dropping bombs in the war and on test ranges: all activities where the word “hit” is important.

          What I’m getting at is your method can produce many results — some of which will seem Chase-relevant, or have ties to geographic features in one or more of the four states. Seeker’s point (I believe) is that your particular approach is arbitrary, not uniquely correct and self-apparent. It doesn’t mean Forrest couldn’t have utilized such an approach; but if he did, there would have to be some built in support that added confidence that it was the correct approach over all the other similar possibilities.

        • That’s wack NoName6!
          Messing with the poem by rearranging and eliminating letters.
          Discounting a word in the poem “warm”.
          Spider connection?
          I would love to see where this takes you where the treasure is.

          • Sorry Seeker, I’ve never been very good at selling my ideas. And I do agree that there should be some sort of predictable pattern if he were to use such a method. I even thought that the little town of Spotted Horse west of Carson Res. and Recluse could have been the blaze. I guess I just had solver’s vision because some things were aligning. I was working on a much more complicated solve before this. So maybe I’ll go back to that. It’s based off the term “riches new” because you’ve got the S at the end of riches you get (SNEW) possibly refering to south, north, east, and west. So my idea was to put the poem in a grid so the letters line up, and then go through the poem and find each one of those letters and write down each one according to its direction. So for example, when you come to the letter N, you would write down the letter above that N etc. There were a couple of things that made me think of that as a possibily. For instance, not one line starting with W (west). The last line contains no S (south). And every instance where an E ends the line, there is punctuation next to it. As well as the contraction “there’ll” perhaps he did it that way because he couldn’t have a W there.

          • Yes, Jake. Once you get a few things to line up you tend to get searcher’s vision. It’s like tunnel vision, but for searchers.

        • NoName,

          OK… I see how you’ve come to the idea of “waters” letters, But why the last ‘2’ letter and not just the ‘S’?
          The poem states later of “water’ high”~ being the differ of the S… you left “Waters” hanging as ‘wate’ because you needed the lat 2 letters… that seems to be a force fit to me.
          In which case I can see that letter {S} being used in this manner to help find a word for a location. But having a hard time with the 2 last letters.

          I’m not arguing as in fighting… I debate for the purpose of possibility in any conversation. I don’t conceive the notion that ‘any theory’ is possible, there has to be a check and balance to even try an experiment for it vitality. There needed to be a high level of probability involved for the chance to be a possible correct method, idea, process, theory, of it all.

          Besides the removing of 2 letters, rather than, the halt letter of S only, line of thinking… You now have to choose which letters from the word “canyon” to be replaced. Is this a shot in the dark on where to use them until a name of something close by works? There are six letters in canyon, right?

          Then we have “drawing”… what am I missing here?
          If you used the next line in stanza 2 for “canyon to Carson”… where does a word in stanza’s 3 line; TBNPUYC, after the word drawing [line], produce “drown” in this manner used in stanza 2?
          Doesn’t the method need to be consistent, or can I use a word from stanza 1 or 6-?- to make a name of a place to work in stanza 3?
          How did “drown” come from “drawing”… what word used to remove the A and ING [ 4 letters ] for replacing them with O and N [ 2 letters ] come from?

          Do you see my dilemma?
          In one case you chose 2 letters to remove and replace… yet later… remove 4 letter and replace those with 2 letters, and more than likely a word from another part of the poem that is not in the next line after the word “drawing” as done in the same manner as stanza 2.

          I’m confused on the order, organization, or lack of any organization, in the method. It seems very random and force fit of location with no real rules to follow in that method of changing word’s letter to create a name of a place.

          • Yes, you are absolutely right seeker. I’m foolish for ever having thought of this. Sorry for leading you all astray.

          • NoName,

            Do not let the remarks of those here discourage you. Many are quick to jump on a new idea and pick it apart to try and better understand the reasoning. While the approach of some may have felt aggressive, I am sure it was all meant to get a clearer picture of where you were coming from. I for one thought it was an interesting process which did lead to some interesting places. AS you will discover, however, there are several ways to arrive at several locations. Only the person who finds the chest will be correct so don’t feel bad if it feels like others are pouncing on your ideas. Feel free to share them and take the comments as feedback. And keep in mind that we all are only exchanging opinions here. No one has any more expertise on this matter than anyone else. Hopefully those who comment will share something with you that may be helpful to you as well as you try and figure it all out like the rest of us. And it’s okay to stir the pot from time to time. Just don’t get stuck in it! All IMO of course.

            -Ann

          • Well, NoName,
            I expected a continuation of a conversation… but if you want to fold your hand I can’t stop you.

            As Zap said more elegantly ~ Forrest couldn’t have utilized such an approach; but if he did, there would have to be some built in support that added confidence that it was the correct approach over all the other similar possibilities.

            LOL and that’s from a guy who has bucked heads with me for many years on the same principles of [ for lack of a better term ] letter swapping.
            Be it a right or wrong method, Zap had the gumption for debating / gave arguments for his theory… even when it was confusing [for me and others]… he still stayed with the conversation presenting his idea.

            Isn’t the the reason to chat on the blog? discussions of possibilities in the challenge… and the possibles likelihood of them? Oh! and don’t worried about my astray… I don’t have a path to even consider.

          • NN6,
            I agree with both sides of this. My own solution uses multiple letter swaps, but mine are in different lines of the poem than yours. I also agree with the others that you should assess your method by looking for it to apply in a reasonable consistent manner across the whole poem and for it to give you something that looks like usable directions to a location. So if the first clues are spread far apart I would expect that the next clues should be in the same general direction and without too many turns or options between them. If you have that sort of consistency for multiple clues I think that you have an idea worth checking out further. Keep at it and welcome to the discussion, this can be a useful place to get feedback. Just don’t expect to get much affirmation since everyone here is fairly solidly fixed on their own interpretation.

          • Yeah, JW. I agree. I had searchers vision. The poem is so vague, there’s nearly an infinite number of ways you could interpret it. For example, I thought “look quickly down” was Peak Six in Colorado. A quick look is called a peek and the number 6 is at the bottom of a clock. But you could easily say that Rifle would be an even better word based on its definition.

          • For those interested-

            I find this tidbit of info may be useful here. And admittedly I was not it’s discoverer. Someone else brought it to my attention.

            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. f”
            (4/26/14) http://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/26/scrapbook-sixty-two/

            Hope you find it helpful, All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Oh, that’s okay, Ann. It’s not the first time I’ve been wrong about something, and I’m sure it won’t be the last. That’s partly the reason I do put solves on here. I want people to find fault with it to test whether it’s a solid solution or not. So I don’t really mind constructive criticism. Back to the drawing board.

          • NoName,

            That’s a great way of looking at it. Felt bad about responses. Thought you deserved lighter replies. I am quite new to all of this myself so, like everyone else, I am still learning. Keep the ideas flowing though. I too like to share my thoughts. I have less skin in the game than some and I am more interesting in solving the problem than finding the chest. And no, that’s not an oxymoron to those reading! Obviously, when someone finds the chest the problem will be solved. I meant I don’t care about personally finding the chest, just that it is found. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • NN6,
            I like the breadth of your thinking, and if this is an early attempt from you it’s way better than my first few attempts. Keep casting a wide net.

          • NoName,

            Attempting a method isn’t wrong…
            I think JW is implying the same idea I tried to. So far, many idea have not produced much more than early searcher have done. Some haven’t even got as far as those earlier searcher with clues solved.
            In my mind {no matter how others respond} if a searcher post a theory or thoughts, it should be and excepted for, feed back… how you use that feed back is up to you. Something noted about your solution may spur a comment you may not have considered.
            Only be warned; some of us {myself} might seem more direct, while others fluffinutter. My best advice… just take it as it comes, use it as you will… not everyone has the same personality.

  56. To All-

    So i was checking out the back country link Lori posted elsewhere when a thought about WWWH came to mind. From what I’ve seen so far, everyone seems to be looking for a geographical location associated with the end of some warm body of water. Then I read a brief remark about WWWH maybe not having anything to do with warm. And I thought if not warm, then maybe when (where in time) warm water halts, which from a scientific standpoint could be when water freezes. Water is warmer than ice, but in freezing it no longer moves freely as it does in liquid form. It quite literally halts. I am sure I am not the first to suggest this and I don’t have much more to say. It doesn’t really help pinpoint a WWWH although I would rule out an elevation related frost such as where snow is likely to accrue on a mountain. I don’t think FF uses any temporary clues. I am inclined to think perhaps a reference to glaciers or a known point of cold waters. And, while I try to avoid rabbit holes I must take this a step further if not just for the sake of stating it, but could not WWWH be a seasonal reference. By this I mean, ….I just thought about it and that is unlikely.

    Anyways, I like the idea of a waterfall being involved. And all is IMO.

    -Ann

    • Ann… Your ‘ice’ comment is well frozen in the 10 years of comment threads ….. but your “time’ comment may be the one thing no one is applying. Time is a river … so begin where Time halts.

      just a thought on the fly.

      • OS2,

        Thanks for the reply. I didn’t figure I was the first to think of the other end of the thermodynamic spectrum. Not sure I catch your drift about my time comment. Could you please elaborate a bit more on your last sentence, or was that just a thought provoker?

        I do like the idea that “where” could refer to a point in time, and generally speaking with regards to water. Not sure how it would be applied to finding a wwwh. If you have any ideas please share.

        I had also given some thought to halt. And I am sure thee has been much discussion on this as well. Briefly, instead of “stop” or “no longer goes there” I thought about “halt who goes there” or halt as in where one does not go. “Did you go in?” “No, I halted.” So where warm waters halt could be where warm waters do not go, as opposed to where they are. Again, let me know your thoughts! All IMO.

        -Ann

        • PS-

          A better explanation of the remarks on halt is that it can be used as a term meaning to refrain from. As in a gentleman will generally halt and permit ladies to go first. In that case, the gentleman’s halt is not where he has stopped but where he did not go, permitting the lady to pass by that way instead. Hope that makes more sense to those reading. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • In the Shadows, and Ann… the word ‘halt’ seems to carry an abrupt & temporary connotation for me… stop, then go. It relates to TIME. Does it seem so to you too?

            Do you re-experience memories of some past event or situation that causes you to halt (and maybe gasp a little) in current time? Moments when time stopped for you then, and you can still feel it now?

            Consider the halt that arrived in a poem a father sent years after son & father halted at a found first arrowhead. Or a halt that changes you forever, like looking into the eyes of your dog & recognizing not ‘dog’ but ‘life’ An coincidental organic quality of time just like your own. Ask any mother about the time a nurse handed her her first newborn. It’s those moments in time that reveal your humanity to you. FF calls them umbilical.

            Time is our Where, the place where we discover who we are. TIME in TTOTC and the Poem, may have more to tell than we’ve thought about. It is the only thing I can think of that the players may be overlooking.

          • OS2,

            So in trying to understand what you mean, are you saying something along the lines of “to give pause to” or “to cause to pause momentarily?” If that is the case, then yes, I understand your meaning. I would still be unclear of the application. One possibility may be that you are connecting the word halt to the searcher instead of ww. If that is the case I am inclined not to support such a stance. If that is not what you are trying to do I will need further explanation to understand what you may getting at. It is possible that such application could be made to the ww, as in the case of a geyser or an abrupt turn in the flow of a stream or river or even in a seasonal sense. Or (and I just thought of this) are y referring to something akin to what I saw in a movie once )Pirate of the Caribbean perhaps or something similar) where the treasure is hidden in a blow hole and getting to it has to be timed right with the intermittent spouts of water that “halt” when they are drawn back into the hole. And yes, I realize that last sentence could pull at the heart of many a conversation in these threads, While that is certainly a plausible location in terms of what e have been discussing her and time and whatnot, it would certainly be a stretch of the imagination to suppose that is what FF meant. Again, I realize how the previous sentence pulls at the heart of many a conversation. I do feel there are eerie similarities between the chase and other (fictional) treasure hunts portrayed in pop culture. This certainly could be another. Would be very interesting of this were the case! All IMO of course. And if I happen to be way off, please clarify for me. Thank you.

            -Ann

          • I dont have the answers Ann, I’m just playing with the idea of TIME. Time is where you can be in two places at once…. like being in your easy chair while ‘being there’ … Flywater.

            Suppose HOB is ‘home’ only during the spawning season or a nesting season, or a hatching. It could be ‘home’ only at a certain time or during certain conditions.

          • OS2,

            I see. Thought maybe you had a specific application in mind. Not nad thinking. I find in trying to figure any of this out that whatever we do to get to a positive end result, we must have a reason for doing so, as opposed to saying just because we can. So when I read about an idea I always wonder what is the potential application, and why would that be something FF would want us to do. Your thoughts d beg the question, is time a factor? Let me know if you think of anything else.

            -Ann

  57. JDA,

    Doesn’t the word “idea” in the comment clarify a thought process that IS of an opinion?
    You believe certain words; such as; “I think” should be added or “imo” must be added when many other words mean the same. Such as; idea… An opinion or belief.
    Are those words or wordings the only choices we have?
    So, I’m curious to the fact that certain words are or should be acceptable vs.
    other words meaning the same, that are not.
    Or even if we need to use an ending comment to justify the same principles.

    End of commentary. Or should that ending only be… Imo?

  58. Caller: “ Hello Mr Obvious. I got a problem. My friends and I have ideas for WWWH. There are three of us. We all have different ideas for WWWH. Each of us swears we got it right.”

    Mr Obvious: “Stop right there caller. It’s possible you are all correct. Forrest never said there is only one WWWH. The answers he already knows. There’s an S after ANSWER isn’t there.”

    Caller: “Say what? Are you kidding me?”

    Mr Obvious: “You heard right caller. I’m serious as a heart attack. They ALL lead to the treasure, IMHO. I can even think of a fourth that could work.”

    Caller: “Thanks Mr Obvious, you’re confusing the bejiggies out of me, but you’re the best.”

  59. If Forrest spent 15 years concocting this poem and we know where he goth these words “Where warm waters Halt”, do you believe that it simply refers to just some hot spring, a geyser or could we use a little more Imagination? Perhaps it is a metaphor dreamed up to reveal “His Church in the Mountains” A place say for his Last Supper and something a little bit more spiritual, a place where he remembers a reunion of some kind after nearly dying of cancer or harrowing escape from death like his plane crash, give ff credit for conceiving a spiritual message to future generations because this cost him a lot of worries, sweat, and tears.

    “Life is a journey, happines it the pot” The message is not complicated nor sublime, it is spiritual IMO and when the final searcher stands over it, this message will be apparent otherwise we all are chasing tales and fables.

    TT

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