Where Warm Waters Halt…

green

This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…

dal…

178 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

    • I also thought the same thing until FF responded to the Christ of the Mines Shrine solve saying that he had never heard of Christ of The Mines Shrine in Silverton, Colorado until several months after the chase. Exactly the same time frame as when the solve was presented!!!!

      I would think the special place would have to be a little more intimate to a person

      • I think I know where warm waters halt, but I am stuck with the second clue because there is no canyon near the location of the first clue. But I think this is why one has to have boots on the ground. Still supposedly one can figure out the first two clues before one has to be on location in order to follow the rest of the clues. Which is why I can’t be absolutely certain of my solve of the first clue.

    • Haven’t posted in a while, so thought I would drop a note.

      I used to believe that WWWH was the confluence of the Uncompahgre with the Gunnison because of one of the alternatively accepted translations of “Uncompahgre (heck, I used to think WWWH was a lot of things). Then about 18 months ago I started looking at the bigger picture. I started thinking in the broad sense of “physical” geography. Where does all water halt, or at least collect? IMO, the second stanza tells us what we are looking for as a place to start.

      IMO, the second stanza also tells us the name (and it is not Brown – IMO). It describes “it”, the water, as it flows into the canyon down. It also states that this water/creek/river is long.

      To me, the next stanza describes and confirms this particular body of water.

      The forth stanza switches to past tense, indicating that what you seek will be found as you travel down stream, but before the end (ever nigh).

      I will have BOTG in late August to see if I am correct. Correct or not, I will post my “solve” after the trip. I plan to do some fishing while I am there, so it will be fun either way.

      Just my current line of thinking,
      Scott W.

      • Hi Scott,

        I think “it” refers to a stream as well.

        Although, there are two “its” in the poem. The first “it”… begin it WWWH… probably refers to “the chase”. The second “it”… take it in the canyon down… probably refers to the river/stream.

        Have fun seeking the treasure!

    • On one of my extensive searches in 2013 I stopped by the Ute Indian Interpretation Center which sits beside the Uncompahgre river In Montrose CO and asked the person at the center what Uncompahgre means. She told me it means “Where warm waters flows.” She was obviously of Indian descent and since she was working at that interpretive center I presume she was of Ute ancestry and therefore believe she knew what she was talking about.

      Note the following In support of the native American Indian’s definition.

      Wikipedia’s article on the Uncompahgre River:
      [Actual quote of the source referenced by References #7]
      “by the Yutas called Ancapagari (which according to the interpreter, means Laguna Colorado) because near its source there is a spring of red water, hot and bad tasting.”

      What’s in a Name: Uncompahgre:
      Ute meanings include “warm flowing water,” “where water makes rock red,” and “red soil” – https://www.5280.com/2014/01/whats-in-a-name-uncompahgre/

      A LADY’S LIFE ON A FARM IN MANITOBA (circa 1882):
      PREFACE.
      These letters were never intended for publication, and were only the details written to our family of an every-day life, and now put in the same shape and composition; not as a literary work, but in hopes that the various experiences we underwent may be useful to future colonists intending to emigrate and farm, either in Manitoba or Colorado.
      OURAY, August 24.
      “Mr. W—— met us at 5 o’clock A.M. at the “Hot Springs,” so called from the boiling water that gushes out of the ground, and which is said to give the name of “Uncompahgre” to the district, that being the Indian word for hot water.” – http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/6732/pg6732-images.html

      FYI: The Uncompahgre River begins flowing crystal clear at Lake Como near the peak of Brown mountain which then flows down the Poughkeepsie Gulch and then into a very deep canyon until it crosses under U.S. Highway 550 to where afterwards there are a couple of beautiful blazing waterfalls. Lake Como is frozen for the good part of the year and usually does not thaw out until late June. In other words the beginnings of the Uncompahgre River is sourced from frozen (halted) water. But… a tributary called Red Mountain Creek flows into the Uncompahgre River down river from those blazing water falls. That creek is heavy laden with a reddish brown color due to the large amount of iron in the creek that flows down from the three (3) Red Mountains which are also heavy laden with iron. At the base of these Red Mountains (in the valley alongside the “Million Dollar Highway” which the Red Mountain Creek flows alongside) is a ghost town called Ironton.

      With all that said I am reminded of what FF says in TTOTC pg 27. “that rusty old iron thing marked the tail of my britches pretty good with a heavy brown color… I was beginning to learn where the edges were…”

      If anyone happens to be hiking in the woods in that area and sees my “NO STOPPING or STANDING NEXT 2 MILES” sign that I strategically planted in the middle of no where for amusement purposes then go ahead and give me a thumbs up.

      ALSO… If this info helps out for finding Indulgence then go ahead and throw me a nugget or two.

      • Very interesting reading. Especially after reading FF’s chapter in his last book, Once Upon A While. There’s a chapter about The Iron Rooster of Sante Fe County. Wow…

    • Aaron–Now that is a very important question..Define IT and you will have a correct starting point..Just one mans opinion..No chest in my possession yet..

    • Aaron,

      Folks have been talking about what IT means and there are quite a few that have been debating this. Question, what if the word IT is not important in solving anything?

      • I wrote this someplace a few years ago and maybe you’ll think it’s worth remembering, Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key. f

        IT’s worth remembering
        IT’s a key

      • I don’t think the word “it” is critically important to a good solve of the poem. If asked nicely what I think “it” means, I’d likely answer “The thrill of the chase” . . . which I kinda think would be a considerably suitable name for the of the poem, if allowed by Mr. Fenn.

        Denver should be looking pretty good in a few weeks. That’s right; I said Denver.

        As always, all part of my opinion.

        • Ha! Denver will certainly put a smile on your face… after a purchase of a nickle bag. Is it still call that? It’s been a while…

          But if IT is of no importance why put IT in?
          The line would easily read perfectly;
          Begin where warm waters halt.
          But IT gives pause for thought to why it’s even there.
          As you said, Andrew, IT has some meaning to you, as some possibility for it {IT}

          IT; used in the normal subject or object position when a more specific subject or object is given later in the sentence.
          IT; used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified.

          IT; used to emphasize a following part of a sentence.

          I kinda like the last usage. IT in the first part of the sentence may refer to IT in part of the sentence; “Take it in” which can be of a physical or visual usage.
          This would create the idea of “begin IT to be visual or “Begin Observing where WWsH and view in the canyon [in some direction of down] and kinda relates to the first definition as well.

          IT can also refer to something already mentioned [ as in the second definition ]. Or meaning; something from stanza 1.

          IDK… it seems a word that doesn’t really need to be in the sentence, is there, and not important.
          Especially if, “take IT in” is only a physical movement towards a direction of down.

          The point is; just dismissing it {IT} as not critically important to a solve.. leaves only one option.. “take IT in” would be of a movement only, idea.
          But yet, fenn put it {IT} after “begin” as well. Ya gotta ask, why did he do it…? or should that it be ~ that? … why did he do that?

          Yep, that [that] sounds better.

          • I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified.” and then “Or meaning; something from stanza 1”.

            It is a pronoun that is referring to something previously mentioned or possibly in this case determined from the “I” riddle in stanza one. Answer the I riddle to determine what IT is referring to.

          • Often when I read the poem I get the feeling like “it” is the chest itself and he’s giving directions from the hiding spot back to your vehicle. Like the poem in reverse.

      • The only thing that I can say about “IT” is it is no longer with you when you leave the canyon,
        Or the second stanza could be interrupted to say
        “IT” is buried in the canyon.
        That’s all I got to say about “IT”
        All the above is only My Opinion

        Best Regards to all in the chase
        Kanafire

  1. The first time I heard the words “where warm waters halt” was in 1991… on a camping/fishing trip with my wife and her father.

    The second time I heard the words “where warm waters halt” was in 2014… when I happened upon an interview with a crazy old man that had hidden a treasure chest somewhere north of Santa Fe.

    Did I mention that my wife (and her father) are from Santa Fe…? Could this WWWH phrase be a regional colloquialism…?

      • Thanks meBigGuy,

        Shortly after my post, I saw other posts that talked about warm/cold water descriptions by NM Fish and Game. It certainly seems plausible.

        When my father-in-law delivered the phrase WWWH, we were visiting a hot spring that was flowing into a river… I always assumed that WWWH was associated with a hot spring… now I wonder whether it was in reference to fishing the stream and it’s fishing boundaries. Alas, my father-in-law has since passed and there is no way to ask him directly.

  2. I would start trying to decode
    Begin into I…..
    If you notice the first 4 lines are ( I N I). Into I

    Where warm…. here in W W w are M, M,W….
    So you change the w’s to M’s,,,, and the M’s to W’s…
    Waters= w at E are S……
    Go in the 4 lines and see if a w is next to an E… there is. Change that w to s, it will say sand.
    Waters halt. Or this.
    W,a,t,e are S, H, A, L…, play with it…..
    See S halt?
    Look at the poems first letters!
    See
    As I have gone alone in there…….
    It has s I have
    Its telling you to erase the I and match it to S ha. With no I…..
    You have to stop reading the poem. Read the words.
    Begin into I…. T W here, find the T w here! You see?
    Once you get used to it it will get easier.
    Or do what Forrest said!
    You should be doing NOTHING WITH GUESSING if your serious about the poem. NOTHING!..
    USE WHAT I SHOWED YOU, NOW START IN THE BOOK AND LOOK FOR THE HINTS.
    UNLESS YOU HAVE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SEARCH EVERY WWWH FOR 10 YRS. He is 500 steps ahead.
    All National forest names are mixed in together from every state! Purposefully
    Another view:
    The end is ever drawing nigh=
    The end I is severed are a wing n eye!
    Drawing nigh= win in the dragons eye
    I could go on all day! Im getting close to completion, i should have already found this thing.
    Its multi layered in every direction, basically anyone from any of the states can go searching with the poem and it would add up, this is THE THRILL OF THE CHASE AND ITS PURPOSE.
    But there is only 1 way to see the (back door) , thats the tricky part. Just my thoughts!

    • (back door)
      Seems like a “short cut”

      “USE WHAT I SHOWED YOU”
      Why don’t you use it and go get the treasure. lol

    • “Oh for joy!! For joy!!! (clapping loudly). It is wonderful to see another searcher so bloody sure of themselves!! This one goes as far as to call themselves “I am the one”. That is marvelous…simply marvelous! I shant post too much more except to say “by George I think he’s got it!!” Do be a good lad and send me photos once you have found it won’t you? (sips from a tea cup). Cheers!!”

      —-Queen Elizabeth

    • Wait! …What?

      INI – into where?
      Change what to what?
      Erase a what, where?
      See what S is for, for what reason{S}?
      Flip something upside down, and make a W into an S… or is IT… into a T?
      Wings have eyes?
      How did the dragon get something in his eye?

      Um, …Why is there a dragon? .. err…
      IS there an alien egg involved somewhere in there?

    • I – 1.
      No disrespect since everyone has there own thoughts how to solve the poem. But a déjà vu for me on this one. I almost fell off my chair. Many have done similar try’s as you are doing. If you have more then 10 lifetimes and stay on your course you may find it that way I don’t know. Your over cooking the poem. He warned us of that.
      But in the interest of your approach there are others out there on your track and I’m sure you could get some help there. I for one am not seeing it.
      Poems rhyme. Try that first
      In fact if I had permission. I would send you half the poem rewritten just as you are trying to do. And guess what it doesn’t tell you anything. In fact you will start to decipher what you deciphered Your own poem Rethink.
      All in my hardheaded opinion.
      GH

    • I’m usually the one encouraging posters who play with the words of the poem, since that’s the general approach I take. But while reading your post I got dizzy, so I’ll wish you luck in your endeavors and leave it at that.

      There are many ways to play with the words. If after all your rearrangements the pieces you found fit neatly and easily together I might think you have something. If they’re a random hodgepodge that takes effort to form into a coherent set of directions I think you’re on the wrong track.

  3. Lets look at where warm waters halt with a clue that was given 08/12/2016 by ff himself: “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short-cuts.”

    So what do you think this means? and what is in the Rocky Mountains south of Santa Fe that is also found north and it has to be a geological location? My guess is WWWH has to be a ……..mountain pass, lake, mountain, or maybe cell phone service? FF 08/11/2016 said: “There are many places in the mountains where cell-phone service is not available.” This would imply in the RM both north and south and a geological point on a map.

    Think the “what if” and let me know your crazy ideas?

    Together we can find this

    BDM

    • Mr. Fenn told us that there are hints in TTOTC book , to help unlock the clues in the poem. So I would think the answer to your question, must some how be hinted at if not directly reviled in TTOTC book.In TTOTC book he talks quite a bit about having cancer, death in general, and cemeteries. I would lean toward cemeteries, with snow capped peaks coming in second.

    • New Way,

      I take “warm waters” as literal… waters most likely warmed by hot springs. There are a lot of hot springs north of Santa Fe. If you were to investigate every hot spring north of Santa Fe, you’d be looking for 10 years and still not find it. That’s why he says look at the big picture. Eliminate those hot springs that you can not attach to a canyon down, a home of Brown, a creek up…

      • there are only 293 official (named) hot springs in that region. Many searchers have done what you say. The tough part (for me) is hoB. The joe brown put in on the yellowstone river is the most obvious.

        • Yes. I think hoB is the clue that seems to be most elusive. Has FF said whether or not someone has successfully identified hoB. I have a hoB that I don’t think anyone else has come up with. My hoB is a pueblo/mission. Brown Franciscan…

        • ah, but it’s even worse. When you include other name variations: “warm/hot/boiling/etc.” and “springs/creek/river/etc.” This gets well over 1,000. Then you add in place names and roads, etc. Not really feasible in any case.

  4. From an abstract perspective, which I believe is most appropriate here, I’ve only managed to come up with a few possible solutions; each of which is more or less likely in their own right.

    1. For a time, I’ve considered ‘warm’ waters to halt in the absence of a source of warmth like sunlight. If this interpretation is correct and the poem presupposes the existence of a specific canyon I’ve looked at options like the Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Black Canyon of Yellowstone, shadow canyon, etc. This particular interpretation stemmed, in part, from FF comments regarding asking a child; I think most children have a sense of warmth/cold outdoors waters relating to sunlight, daytime, etc.

    2. Forrest’s memoir is nothing if not a work focusing on the existentialism of our respective position in this world and the impact we have on those around us. In keeping with this theme -death, mortality, etc. – I think it’s possible to interpret WWWH broadly, within the context of the end of life. To that end, there are a number of canyons with names like Graveyard, Death, Cemetary, etc. It’s also possible that this interpretation points to something more historical like a monument, famous battle location, etc. Now obviously FF has indicated the treasure is not located in a cemetary or graveyard but I don’t believe that excludes this interpretations validity with regards to specific clues. In fact, FF references graveyards no less than four times in TTOTC and the book, as previously mentioned, has a heavy focus on all things mortality.

    3. TTOTC also references steam engines and an antiquated defintion of “halt” pertains to locations at which old steam locomotives would stop along their journey.

    4. Endorheic basins, proglacial lakes, petrified trees, and other geograohical phenomena may be worth considering but are dangerously close, if not in direct violation, of the specialized knowledge comment.

    Thus far, I’ve considered and discarded multiple solves referencing WWWH specific to tributaries, hot springs, bodies of water with names that can be interpreted within that context, etc. I think the specificty of the poem and subsequent comments from FF indicate that the solve for this particular clue is not related to a guess hazarded around the relative temperature of this or that stream.

    I could go on and on at length but these are just my current thoughts. I don’t feel to strongly about any of these ideas and I’m happy to receive feedback. Excuse the typos; at work.

  5. Sinks canyon, Ice box canyon, Otto’s bathtub, come to mind when I think of wwwh as literal names. Thermal waters come to mind as well, Boiling river, Firehole river. I think for halt to ring true, they (plural – waters) must change names.
    Which makes them come to an abrupt stop.

    • I have no evidence that bodies of water with names related to warmth are incompatible with the poems solution, however:

      1. I believe that in order to avoid a “specialized knowledge” fallacy many solutions along these lines must be discarded.

      2. These solutions are not “tricky” and require little interpretative effort or thought.

      3. I haven’t noted hints, subtle or otherwise, within TTOTC that lead me to believe these solutions have potential.

      Just some initial thoughts.

    • Tony, I’m a bit surprised that you claim that changing names makes waters come
      to an abrupt stop. The waters probably aren’t aware of what cartographers do.
      All part of my opinion, before I drive toward Main St.

  6. dal on July 16, 2019 at 10:01 am said:

    NWOT-
    You may be one of the few to consider the trail down to 7 Mile Hole in the Yellowstone Canyon a likely place for indulgence. That’s an 11 mile round trip with an elevation gain of 1,400 feet. Seems like a lot for an 80 year old guy to accomplish twice in one afternoon carrying a 22lb pack…Good news is that he only would have to carry the goodies down slope…
    But why do you say it’s “the spot”?
    How do you “put in” at a hole and what’s the “Brown”..? just curious..

    Answer::::::::::

    “It is like asking me how deep is a hole.”

    Not too far for an 80 year old man if you only go 166 steps and/or 200 feet!!!!

    • NWOT – Reposting this here from my post on the closed WWWH thread:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2019/05/17/where-warm-waters-halt-16/#comment-783989

      That would be “Waters” in the classic 1938 fly fishing book by Back. Which I finished reading yesterday. He considered those 10 miles from just above Barns Hole #1 to Hebgen Lake to be his favorite fly fishing destination. He mentioned that a “fish-hog” would park inside the YNP West Entrance gate to make sure he was first at the prime fishing spot on the Madison at Nine Mile Hole. Didn’t Forrest’s Dad do that? And he pointed out that the many “streams” that meet the Madison, between the Barns Holes and Baker’S Hole, create a great place, just downstream from the inflowing cold ‘creek’ water, for the biggest trout to ‘lie’. And then there was the use of “married” in Back’s reference to the warm water “parents” of the Madison River: the Gibbon and the Firehole.

      The entire book was structured very much like Craig Mathews’ excerpt I posted from his book about the Madison River; a play by play ‘map’ to get to all the best ‘holes’ for excellent fly fishing. Someone gifted Back’s book to Craig twenty years before he wrote his introduction to the new 2000 edition of Back’s classic. I would be surprised if both Marvin and Forrest Fenn did not use this book for reference. Maybe Forrest will see this post and respond? Craig’s copy is pretty dog-eared. And first editions are almost impossible to find.

      Accessibility from roads was highlighted. Especially from my WWWH at Madison Junction to the Barns Holes. Back also covered the on the Firehole from Midway Geyser Basin to Madison Junction and on the Gibbon from Norris Geyser Basin to Madison Junction. But that section from the Barns Holes to Baker’S Hole, with the solitude he found there, still was Back’s favorite. And Forrest’s, IMO. At least after I read the preface of TFTW. Still thinking about his “lonesome shadow”.

        • Farron Young – Thank you for that search report! I just want to fish there, like Forrest and his father both probably did.

          “How deep is a hole?” f

          Just trying to find all of them, especially those between Madison Junction and Baker’S Hole on the Madison River. I am surprised Forrest didn’t write a fly fishing book.

  7. The first time I heard the phrase “where warm waters halt” was in 1991 while on a camping/fishing trip with my father-in-law. He used the phrase to describe the area we had traveled that day. The area was in the Jemez Mountains… an area he enjoyed fishing. Like many other residents of Santa Fe, he enjoyed the Jemez for it’s close proximity to Santa Fe but also it’s trove of natural/historic treasures.

    The second time I heard the phrase “where warm waters halt” was 25 years later in 2014 while watching an interview with Forrest Fenn. Needless to say, the phrase startled a deeply hidden memory from 25 years prior.

    Is it possible/probable that “where warm waters halt” may be a regional colloquialism…?

    • I’ll answer it the second time also (once for each time you heard it :P)

      fish and game in NM define warm waters and cold waters, so yes to your question.

  8. Sorry New way of thinking. I was trying to respond to Doug’s post up thread, but it didn’t go to the right place.

  9. Begin it.
    OK, we got that this is the 1st clue where to start the chase, so we probably don’t have to red into this any more seeing the face value was proved.

    Where = A place, spot, location on a map and probably Google earth.
    Warm = Comfortable, either physically (temperature) or emotionally.
    Waters = Body of water, multiple tributaries of water flowing.
    Halt = Stop, discontinue, cease.

    At face value using simple definitions, it appears to me you have to consider all 4 words describing a place, spot or location that is in water. I would not recommend ignoring any of these words and they should all be equally important.

    1st clue breakdown 101

      • JDA – in my opinion, the words could have been “field of Brown”, ” door of Brown”, “hut of Brown”, etc. You can still get the same answer. However, “home of Brown” is much more intuitive since it implies you are looking for a place. But it doesn’t really matter.

        Scott W.

  10. The only place I have seen which specifically uses “Warm Waters” as a defined place(s) is in the NM Fishing Rules and Info booklet. There are many places where the “Warm waters”, as defined by the booklet, “halt” and then begin again later downstream in a canyon. These would be “Special Trout Waters”. That being said, there are few which are north of Sante Fe and where a 79/80 year old man could go carrying two heavy loads.
    FF was an avid trout fisherman and most likely used the NM term “Warm waters” and is familiar with this term and its definition according to NM Fishing Rules and Info.
    So our solve is in NM north of Sante Fe.
    As always, IMO.

    • Possible TS, but not only is this specialized knowledge but how can we know that these regulations will be around for a thousand years or even a few decades?

      • Hey-O Tarheel –

        Even if *Warm Waters* does refer to fishing waters, there’s no need to confine it to New Mexico – it’s understood by fly fishers all over the four search states.

        Here’s a description of the Yampa River in northern Colorado (source – Colorado Fishing Network)

        “Yampa River (CO) – Starting in the mountains, this river traverses mostly high, dry rangeland and canyons. The flyfishing varies as much as the terrain. The Upper Yampa holds *cold-water* species whereas *warm-water* species are found downstream at river’s end. Somewhere in-between, the two meet with opportunity to fish for trout and pike in the same river spot.”
        Source – Colorado Fishing Network

        (It’s worth noting that the Yampa “river’s end” is where it flows into the Green River, which is cold ‘trout’ water released from Flaming Gorge over-and-up on the Utah/Wyoming border. So the Yampa “warm-water” stops at its confluence with the Green.)

        Jake

        • Jake,
          My original post was for “waters” (plural). No “waters” in CO Fishing Network.
          I believe FF put Warm waters (plural) as a specific indicator….not a broad descriptor.
          As always…IMO
          Good luck and stay safe.

    • Tarheel, in general terms I can assure you every fisherman (including ff) and my self and thousands in NM, knew this term WWWH not specialized knowledge and if you did not abide by the WWWH, you got a hefty fine and your tackle was confiscated by NM Game and Fish, However this term ends at the Colorado Border, no where else is it said exactly like that. As state above, Colorado does mean RED, as in Warm…any more questions would be minor distinctions in the Big Picture IMO.

      So even if WWWH was not the exact place in a canyon on a river, the border would settle the dispute again IMO.

      TT

      • montana also has (recently) a warm waters license. Pretty common terms. Many lakes are home to warm water species. That is pretty general knowledge.

          • To all responders above,
            I’m saying that the only place I have found which references a specific “Warm waters” (plural waters) in writing is the NM booklet. I know that many people refer to warm waters, myself included, but I have not seen a specific reference in writing as “warm waters” except as noted above.
            I have read the Wy, Mt and Co fishing regs but did not see a detailed reference to “Warm waters” (plural) in those. I may have missed it…anything is possible.
            As always, IMO.

          • Tarheel;

            An alignment of your thought, I can see how “N. of SF.” to be a hint to NM [for clues]
            I can see “in the mountains” as a piece of information to be used as mountains in NM.
            I can see the poem use of “end” as a border or state line, idea.
            I can see “New and Old” as a possible reference to territories of Old Mexico, idea to New Mexico, line of thinking. Which could change the idea of where your WWsH changes, or give credence to the idea of present day borders.

            We also have the book given to a single book store ‘in NM.’ That alone raises question to why only a single store, who agreed that 10% goes to cancer research, and not to a larger chain store, to push those donations to a higher level. [at that time]

            But for the life of me… I have a hard time to think fenn is following any ‘rules n regulations’ that is government issued… and not really available to many states or other countries.

            It kinda say… this was only meant for NM residence, and anglers [ in-particular] in the state… would have a great advantage just because of a fishing license purchase w/ a fishing manual and guide lines, ‘requirement’

            I mean, who had a home computer, an idiot phone, the internet, in 1988 or some later years to find this information-?- without actually going to NM and getting an out of state permit to fish.
            It’s a big stretch for me… that’s all I’m saying. I like how it looks like it can work.. but still a big stretch.

            Do you know when the wording was placed in the fishing information for NM? Just out of curiosity…

  11. My dear Watson it seems that there are multitudes that are still going in circles in the Rockies. Having completed “WWWH 101” at Jaketown University I am ready to disclose a probability that is not a mere flip of a coin. I recall Prof. Moriarty , prior to his debauchery, one day on Baker Street while attending to his green tea discussing rumors from America of an ancient hot springs called Ojo Caliente. Now Watson, please take notes to leave for my house lady so she can forward any correspondence direct to me while I am in the North American continental confines. There is a small river called a Spanish name, Rio Ojo Caliente, write that down. It appears to flow towards another river, a much COLDER river, another Spanish name, The Chama. There at The Chama the warm waters of the Rio Caliente halt and cease to exist and this my dear Watson is where I shall “Begin It “. Yes, write this in your notes, below EL Vado….the home of Brown. Watson, above all make sure my correspondence is sent to the Collective Bookstore , Santa Fe, south from where I will be in hot pursuit. Very well my good chap.I bid you ado and I shant tarry long.

    • I’ve never used a dictionary in England, but I have used many in the United States. I know what “halt” means. That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it. All IMO,
      of course. Y’all’s wileage may continue to vary, I’d guess.

    • Holmes,
      Have you taken a swim in this Spanish named rio called Rio Ojo Caliente?
      Are you assuming that it is warm because it’s name or do you have actual 1st hand evidence that it is a comfortable temperature?

      It appears this river is formed by 2 other rivers converging as some here think that qualifies as WWWH.

      I think the qualification is for it to be warm year round and not just in summer when some rivers warm up a bit.
      I suggest you head north where the waters are warm year round but halt a short distance away. Keep flipping that double sided coin.

    • EL VADO. A place in the upper reaches of Coyote Canyon in the Santa Rosa Mountains (San Jacinto Range) was given this descriptive Spanish name meaning “the ford” by Juan Bautista de Anza on December 20, 1775. He wrote in his diary, “we halted … where plentiful running water as well as some pasturage was found. On arriving at this place, which we called El Vado

  12. Where warm water halts… in my opinion I believe it means glaciers or turn to ice… so I started at glacier county Montana

  13. My current favorite for WWWH is the continental divide. We tend to think in terms of gravity, but the clue includes no such rules.

      • Hey Scott, How ya been?

        I really like that question. I think this is a mental block readers of the poem put in their minds when they only think of 9 clues.
        The first thing we are told to do is decipher the first clue, right? Ok Lets say the correct deciphering is CD. But like you said, where on it?
        My question is; why do we need to know where right at that moment? Can’t we decipher [lets say] hoB and what if refers to and that helps with the where part for clue one?
        Can HLnWH deciphering do that?

        On the example in an old theory of mine work that way; WWsH- the CD. Canyon down is a direction from WWsH but unknown to where at this moment.
        NF,BTFTW revolved around time, but that was known of either at that moment. HoB was considered Canada for the Title of it symbol the brown beaver [not unlike our symbol the Bald Eagle]

        OK if we juts stop there. Does this give a location for WWsH on the CD? Does it give a possible Canyon in that location? Does understand the possible hoB give the idea that NPFTM can be the USA side of the RM’s [ home of the brave ] a clue deciphering from stanza 3?

        The point is… why do we think we need to just figure out what, where, why of WWsH just from that 6 words in that line in stanza 2?
        To me… That approach, or thought process is only guessing what WWsH is and where.
        fenn said we need to learn where WWsH is and all the information to find the chest is in the poem, and tells us to adjust… to get back in the box… how in the world can any clue be completely deciphered on it’s own with just 6 words out 166 words to work with?

        This, IMO, is why folks can still be stuck on the first two clues… there seems to be a mental block that deciphering has to be the same as ‘follow the clues in order’… like we are not supposed to try and figure out anything else in the poem that could help understand the first clue fully. or any other clue.

        I’ll use JDA as an example of a type of mental block I think may be happening [ I hope he doesn’t mind ]
        He uses “in the Wood” as a connection to help WWsH. The idea is good because he is thinking of other info in the poem to help with an answer to the first clue. But, his concentration is only on the first clue. Maybe Brave and in the wood helps another clue or maybe HLnWH helps WWsH.

        Nothing is taken out of order within the poem… just our thinking we have to solve the first clue before solving any other clue. This is where all the hours of “oustside” research come into play… as if the answers to any clue [first clue mostly] ‘outside’ the poem.
        The same can be said for the first stanza… that is can only help with the first clue because it is prior to that clue, but stanza 5 or 6 might not juts because it seem to be past the ‘clue section’ of the poem.

        Maybe to answer ‘where’ warm waters halt’s deciphered answer is [ its reference – in this case the CD ] we need another clue deciphered for its reference to do just that.
        Clues are Contiguous comes to mind.

        For this reason above… is why I dislike the idea that “all clues must be different location” from each other.
        That mindset stifles any other thought process, or the WhatIF’s fenn may refer to; in the dart tossing SB.

        • Seeker,

          Good to hear from you again. I think you and I have been on pretty much (more or less) the same page for years. Something you said maybe three years ago got me into thinking about things differently, and I started looking at the clues as descriptors of a place rather than a “path” to a place.

          I liken it to a zoom lens on a camera. When I point the camera at the subject with the zoom all the way out, it has the target in the frame but I can’t quite make it out. As I zoom in further, I can start to see more detail. As I zoom all the way in, the subject is clearly defined. The camera was pointing at the subject the entire time.

          It goes back to the “big picture” view. Each clue is a step up in zoom. Kind of a nerdy way to say it, but that is the best analogy I could come up with at the moment.

          BTW, I don’t believe WWWH is the CDT. However, a point on the CDT does come into “view” as I zoom in .

          All just my opinion, of course.

          Scott W.

          • I like the analogy a lot, Scott.
            It puts in perspective the idea of descriptors [as you said] vs. just a place on a map as, too simplistic to start with.
            Kinda like; It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.

            Has far as the CDT [I don’t like the T-trail. It not so much about the “trail” as much as what is happening on this area, line of thinking, long before it was give the idea {titled as a trail} for hiking as a recreation.]

            But like you explain with your analogy… we need to be zooming in to a specific place. The question is; what does this?
            I think * later clues * [ and other info ] in the poem can direct a “thought” to bring WWsH in to clarity.

            I’m thinking of the idea as the big picture to be; contiguous; the clue’s connections to each other… how they work with each other.
            We might be able to see the physical clues as separte, but we need to zoom in to see them all in the same frame, to see how they fit with one another, Idea.

            Basically saying; they are pieces of a whole… synergy; the whole is greater than all its part. But, we need all those part. [ descriptors ]
            Feel free to yack off blog if ya like… good to see you pop in now and then.

            Really!.. three years ago?
            I can’t remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

        • I believe that the clue” WWWH “can be deciphered on its own. It calls for thinking like the “ lifelong vagabonds” who came up with their solution of “ begin it where the Sweetwater river flows through the Devils Gate”
          The Sweetwater is running through a canyon at this point.
          The correct solution will call for “ thinking and analyzing”.
          The poem wasn’t designed to be easy, Forrest wanted us out in the Wood BOTG.
          All of the above is IMO
          Kanafire

  14. I am stuck on the warm waters halting. The first simple thing I came across was the story on EC Waters and the E.C S.S. Waters ship. Mr. Waters entrepreneurship ended in Yellowstone lake, they eventually torched the ship, making it warm haha. So the S.S. Waters and Mr. Waters business was stopped at the lake.

    • Monica – I would put this information into the “Specialized Knowledge”. I could be wrong, but I think that the WWWsH is something that is much more generally known by the average searcher – JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        Is knowing the distance from Earth to the Sun specialized knowledge? or the speed of light?
        Do you or most folks know that info off the top of your head?
        Is knowing a little history of a place, millions visit each year, specialized knowledge if I personally never visit the place?

        I think specialized refer to “advance knowledge” in any subject; such as advance mathematics to determine those above distances.
        But is the idea of simply refreshing what we should have known of or simply forgot or never knew of… specialized in anyway?

        ~ “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

        “And I have no expectations.”
        Could it be fenn means he can’t predict what anyone knows or not, and the book could point to what we may need to “learn”

        How many here didn’t truly know the difference between Clovis and Folsom before reading the book and/or about the chase? Does that new knowledge become ‘specialized knowledge’ and shouldn’t be usable?

        • Seeker;

          It seems as though I would have to answer “NO” to almost every question you posed. Maybe knowing about E.C.S.S.
          Waters ship is not as specialized as I thought. See, we learn something every day. That is one thing I learned. Will it get me any closer to finding Indulgence – Who knows? It might help, or it might just open it up to even more questions – JDA

          • I file the comment under useless clues, idea, myself.
            I my mind it simply says; use the book… if there’s something in it you don’t know about.. ya can google it.
            Whether that is a waste of time or not, is to be determined.

      • “No time spent in thought is wasted and nothing is too small to know, so one should not let knowing a little bit be a substitute for learning more.”

        I think Zap posted this a few days ago…and I’ve posted this before, along with others in the past. Fenn tells us we need to *learn* wwwh… or the game is over before it starts. Fenn has gifted us with tons of stories packed with tidbits that I’m sure a lot of folks would never have known or read about if not offered by him at the time. I think his [specialized knowledge] comment was a generalized idea to keep things fairly basic. Sure ken… why haven’t you paid attention to that !

    • Here are some ideas anyone can look into, Warm Springs Montana has several ponds that stop bad water from the copper mine’s and killing the trout in the Clark fork river……. Their is the Gallatin river in Montana after leaving the canyon it forks out into several small stream in the flat lands at Gallatin Gateway by Boseman, it’s said that the waters warm rapidly and it’s not very good fishing for trout …. Also in New Mexico going toward Hermit’s Peak from Las Vegas N.M. not Nevada, at the beginning of that canyon are some hot spring tubs , I know we are looking for warm, well one of the tubs read; Not so hot of a hot springs, I would call that warm. One more, find the exact place Fenn soaked because all boy like to pee in the water, I know I have six boy’s , the little punks. LOL

  15. If “several” have figured out the first few clues. Seems unlikely that wwwh is anything other than Madison junction.

    • Well its possible there are several. West Yellowstone or Madison junction both work for me. WWWH summer waters. maybe just call it West Yellowstone. I guess for now only FF knows. I am leaving being wrong
      open for myself.

  16. ok been doing some reading, how about Chama River its almost an hr drive from fenns house and the river runs red or El RITO pink or red mountains.

      • Did you mean where WARM waters halt?
        I think your question leaves out a very important qualifier.
        Don’t assume those waters are warm unless you took a swim there.

  17. Seeker,
    Response to the NM fishing regs comment.
    Fair point.
    I’m still going with the SWT (Special Trout Waters) and Warm waters angle in NM.
    Good luck and stay safe.

    • Tarheel,

      It might be a fair point… But it always been a curiosity to me that fenn may have not known /guess how extended the chase would reach in a short time of…what 2 years-?- in.

      That could give some more credence to the thought of why NM could be where the chest lays in wait. And the other things I mentioned in the above post.
      In which case… IF fenn was thinking about the poem as rivers, creeks, waters, which at first glance it seem to be…
      Hey, an angler and his stories of fishing with dad, being a fishing guide at 13, tells us he stuck at age 13, his lures made by hand… etc.
      I have a hard time arguing against NM fishing Guide as part of the “learning” what/where WWsH is about… with all the other things we know of.. from the book.
      However;
      Like I said before… my concern is fenn using government issued information [ even, state government ] as the learning tool to get that information.

      LOL but then again, NM [ SF ] is the only place the book was/is sold, right? And no mountains of any other city or state were mentioned to be north of: except, SF. Where the author lives.

      There’s a lot to say about NM being the top contender… it does limit the area to be 8.25 miles north or the northern point of SF and possibly below CO.
      I don’t know the sq. miles of this area within the RM’s there… lol… but that is shoe-box sizes compared to the whole range… even with Canada ~ poof.

      It does make some sense WWsH stops at the border, idea.
      Only if analyzing everything… the comment, there are many WWsH in the RM’s and nearly all are N of SF. is still a thorn in my side. For “nearly all” to be “IN” NM… The idea of the “RM’s” really doesn’t pan out to say ‘only’ NM, idea.

      I guess I’d need something in the poem [ other than the idea of END to mean border or state line ] to boost that confidence level for WWsH being; nailed down.

      • Seeker,
        Good point, again.
        Your comment of FF not thinking the chase would go on so long is one of my thoughts as well.

        The picture on page 145 and 146 in the TTOTC has a man (FF?) looking up at a nest/bird with a dark sky or wall background? Also the man has waders on and the trees have been cut down. I believe the cut down trees are a hint at an actual place which was relevant at the time the book was written, but may not be relevant to a searcher looking now because of the forest growth over the last decade. So I think you are right by saying that FF did not think the chase would go on so long and “some” hints were meant for the time the book was written.
        Through my research, over most of the last 10 years, I recently came across info which stated an area had been cut as a fire break. This was done next to my final solve….refined with numerous BOTG’s and years of research. This area was cut within approximately 1 1/2 years of the book coming out.
        Regardless of “my” solve, I think the picture is relevant as a hint and relates to an area logged before the story was written and book was released.
        This may help others…or not.
        Good luck and stay safe.

        • Hi Tarheel Searcher;

          Instead of a forest that might have been clear-cut – Maybe the picture is just indicating that it is an area that has no visual obstructions – an open vista. Just an idea – JDA

          • I agree Mr. JDA – some place, somewhere out there where we can see the stars. Alot of bluffs going on around the blogs right now – sure would help to have a clear view. You think anyone is ever gonna get this pinned down, find that magic spot, and be able to yell “Eureka?”

        • Hi Tar, I never saw Chase hints in this picture. To me it is about another treasure. FF’s mother is waiting in the moon, father to join her soon, his life’s labors done. The waders are a personal note between them, a joke perhaps, about the work and joys they shared in Montana summers. FF is telling a story about the love between his mother and father. Its appropriate to the chapter.
          IMO

        • Tarheel,

          Just for clarification… my post wasn’t about the longevity of the clues / chase… but more to the idea of how quick folks pickup on the challenge.

          Going from [ a few 100 to start and climbing to thousands in a short time… 2 years ish.

          Also; I recall a ATF where fenn look at GE of his place and stated it it looks the same. I can’t remember the exact wording to look it up.. or it could have been a video. But I recall it was something like that.

          • If it indicates an open treeless area and possibly buried.
            I had thought about having to follow maybe 3 or 4 small
            white slabs somewhere and flipping them over and
            probe 4 to 5 inches deep under them. A 22 R t-handle
            cleaning rod first section in your back pack would come in handy. Like the picture where he points his foot
            at one of those slabs at you know where. It would be
            marked some how. Best guess flip over smaller slab
            one that’s easy to flip over. Or track them in a direction
            towards the chest.
            Prepare for anything I guess.
            Look those rocks way over there look like three Baby Ruth. just example not that it would be the case.
            I guess I will read the books again and keep looking
            for what I am missing to find it in one trip.
            Well Stay Safe in them there mountains.

  18. My dear Watson, upon arriving at Paddington Station prior to my overland to the freighter, someone left a downloaded and printed copy of The Catalog Of Thermal Waters In New Mexico by The New Mexico Bureau Of Mines & Mineral Resoures. It was left in my berth with narry a note but has proved to be most enlightening as to my inquiry of the temperatures of the water courses without having to even get my big toe wet.

    Oh…..how marvelous Watson….simply marvelous.

    • So Holmes, Are the berthing waters as such for a new born?
      I would not trust any catalog documents (especially government docs) to prove your hypothesis.
      I suggest you dive in head 1st otherwise you are relying on possible lying or anothers POT point of temperature. Trust in others accounts lead to failure.
      I implore you to find out for yourself. Find, hold and fire the smoking gun otherwise it’s just a paperweight.

    • How can you know that you received a catalog in your ship’s berth upon arriving in London a hundred 19th-century horsey-miles from your train?

  19. Okay hear me all and listen good……….This was brought to my attention today and want to know if anyone else has looked into this WWWH: The River of No Return

  20. The River of No Return. Think about it……WWWH could be where danger starts, “finding where the edges are” I believe is the clue in TTOTC, so No Return sound like where like where warm waters halt to me. The River of No Return runs a short distance along the Idaho/Montana border and heads for the Columbia River.

    BDM

    • At this point since no one has found the indulgence yet it’s as good a guess as any. Get some BOTG and enjoy a great hike! I’ll leave that area to you. I have my own WWWH that needs exploring in September.

    • I’m at a loss New Way of Thinking,
      I can’t find this river: The River of No Return on Google Maps or earth.
      The Moyie River is near the border and runs through “Good Grief” Idaho.
      Help!

      • Formal Name is the Salmon River. Look up “Salmon, Idaho.” Headwaters are in Montana and the original home to the Shoshone Indians

        • Actually The River of No Return in the “Middle Fork of the Salmon River” Maybe FF wants to be in the middle again?????

        • I’m still at a loss after research NWoT.
          I do think old ways back in 2011 or 2012 got searchers within 200′ not in Idaho.
          keep at it though.

  21. Where warm waters halt.
    Let’s see it is above 5000ft and below? ( don’t recall sry )
    5000ft being the base altitude of most of the Rockies.
    So imho wwwh lies where the snow line stops. Any mountains with snow in the warmer seasons?

    In my mind’s eye, I see a route to this area.
    Perhaps a road?? Whoa, what? Ummm water flows, lava flows Traffic flows.
    I must be thinking too hard, I smell wood burning lol.

    HDD

    • hmmm…..sounds like someone knows more then they’re letting on. I wonder if that road does not allow motorized vehicles. Best park at the church, and head to the “no trespassing gate” and on, to the burning, (or burnt) wood. To around 8008′.lol,,,…

  22. What about “Father on the Banco/” Banco is also the definition to the first poem in TTOTC. Most interesting is the definition in Websters Dictionary ” channel of a river cut off and left dry by the shifting of its course” NOW that sounds like WWWH.

    What do you think?

  23. I think people should try thinking broadly about what “warm waters” might be, might represent,
    or might be represented by. Forrest, do you agree?

  24. In my opinion the two main reasons why longtime searchers have not found the correct WWWH is: (1) their lack of knowledge of Rocky Mt. geography, and (2) their lack of imagination.

    Lack of imagination is not a mortal sin. But unwillingness to learn geography reeks of mental laziness; it also reeks of a smug presumption that Fenn’s words about geographic knowledge is irrelevant.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  25. so does anyone know where this India Girl says Warm Water halt is? I keep finding talks about it, but wasn’t sure if her thought was shared publicly ..thanks

    • Linda;

      The Little Girl… was a made-up person by Jenny over on her site. There is no Little Girl In India – therefore, “she” never said WWWsH is.

      Go to http://www.TarryScant.com and type in “Little girl” and you will get a bunch of posts that should help you. Hope this helps – JDA

      • thank you very much JDA, yes now I can stop thinking some has the first clue. and back to my work..
        have a great day yall and a better weekend.

        • You are welcome. Some do have or had the first clue. Forrest has said several times that people (searchers) have been within 200′ and 500′ – therefore, they probably have solved at least one clue. Forrest has also said that people have solved the first two clues, and even once said that they have probably solved the first four clues, although he was not sure. – JDA

  26. The first stanza in poem narrows down the area of the Rocky Mountains to a much smaller area , we are to narrow down this area to the place that WWH`s … the poem and TTOTC give the first area and a good map and/or GE helps find WWWH`s . IMO

    • JPE – These are very encompassing and vague statements . Can you put a bit more meat on the bone? WHAT in stanza, in your opinion, narrows the search area of the Rocky Mountains? What is there in stanza #1 that says it is in NM, CO, WY or MT? I don’t see anything.

      Same say “New and Old” = NM. Some say Treasure = MT the treasure state. These seem pretty obscure to me.

      What “In the poem” or “TToTC” or GE helps with WWWsH? Broad statements, nothing to back them up. Can you help us please? – JDA

      • Hello jda. The poem does not help with locating wwwh. Because I am botg this weekend, probably the last time, I will share this. Go to “I’m getting dizzy…” communication from Mr. Fenn. If I’m right, it takes you from wwwh along maybe 2/3 of our physical journey. I’ve been locked on this from the beginning. It also hints at how to unlock the poem architecture.

        • Hi Sean;

          Good luck with your BOTG. Hope you find all that you seek.

          I have always liked this SB. Makes one wonder why he added it to OUAW revised as the only new chapter. I think that the 10′ ladder plays a role in finding Indulgence. Is there other important info included? Not sure, but I will keep looking. JDA

          • JDA,
            Do you think we need a 10 ft ladder and a shadow to find indulgence?
            I can possibly see maybe a 10 ft incline with rock steps to the blaze but a ladder ???

          • Interpretation – Imagination. Maybe not a ten foot ladder, but how about a 10′ tall tree? How about a hint of 10′ up on a shelf/plateau of some kind? What is “between the lines” that we need to know? – JDA

          • Again Jake, it’s not that you really need these things with you. They are part of the story that can be figured out very easily if you have the time, date, and spot. It’s the distance that we are interested in.

            For me JDA, it’s a 7′ stick shaped like a “Y”. Sun at 5 degrees creates an 80′ shadow. (on 8/22). All stems from Skippy, standing up, knowlege, 2 people can keep….etc…and is done at the 8th clue. Where I think a bell is buried.

  27. In reply to JDA , First of all , i am new here to the blog , love to read all the comments . i guess i was a little short on information in the above statement , i will do better , NOW , we need to find THE place WWWH`s in a huge area of land so FF narrowed that down for us in stanza #1 , just stay with me here , ok , AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERE , we must think of places he has went alone , places he has been that he fell in love with AND wanted to leave his bones . i believe his dad showed him this place for the first time on one of their summer trips but FF has been back a few times by himself before and after his father died , [ TWO PEOPLE CAN KEEP A SECRET IF ONE OF THEM IS DEAD ] i guess my point is that IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP . this is just my opinion , an example of what 1st stanza is there for , then use a good map and/or GE to pin point WWWH`s

    • JPE – Welcome to the chase. Hope you have fun.

      You say: ” i guess my point is that IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP . ” Seems to me to be a BIG step in logic. I agree that Forrest’s father MAY have shown him THE place – But why does it have to be Yellowstone? Yellowstone just seems a bit too obvious to me. The trip from Texas to YNP is 1600 miles. It took four days. They needed to stop at least three times (Not counting gas and bathroom breaks) I am sure that they had a couple of over-night camping spots where they liked to stop, fish, refresh, stretch their legs etc. These stops could have been in NM. Colorado or in Wyoming. 1600 divided by 3 = about 533 miles per day. This would make stops in Amarillo. Denver, and Casper. If four stops were made Maybe Amarillo, Colorado Springs, Ft. Collins, CO or Laramie, WY, and Lander WY. (All just guesses.
      There are lots of pretty areas to over-night camp between Denver and YNP. Just something to think about. Again, For me, YNP is just TOO obvious – Good luck to Ya’ and again, welcome to the search – JDA

      • “Too obvious” doesn’t have to automatically disqualify a place. At the same time, though, “too obvious” doesn’t have to guarantee the place. Especially since what is “obvious” to one entity may not be obvious to
        all entities. Gee. All the clues still have to work together and make sense to FF and also, by extension, to his theoretical average person capable of solving the poem correctly. In other words, the poem may only have to make absolute logical sense to FF (his trove, his rules).
        I happen to believe that the poem should be correctly solvable by a person of “sorta-average” intelligence who isn’t afraid to use a dictionary, and has a lot of perseverance. But I also think that the TC will be found less than a few years from now, so anyone seriously planning to find it should tarry scant in solving the poem. As always, in my opinion.

    • *** *** *** ***
      JPE suggested – i believe his dad showed him this place for the first time on one of their summer trips but FF has been back a few times by himself before and after his father died . . . . IF his dad took him there and they spent every summer for like 16-18 years in the YELLOWSTONE area that we can narrow our search down to YNP”
      **** **** ****

      ff’s own backstory is something you (we) can’t un-know once we know it.

      I wonder, though, about how much decisive weight it can (or should) be allowed to swing in reading the poem. Given that, being in the book not the poem, it’s really only a hint.

      If it’s so, it’s An Awful Big Hint – a “critical hint” if you will – that can actually “point you toward the treasure chest.” And at the same time a person *without* ff’s own backstory would be severely disadvantaged.

      But the whole hint/clue thing has always been squishy ground. And as I said at the beginning, once we start learning places he’s been, it’s practically impossible to pretend we can’t see them.

      Jake

  28. JDA , one more thing , 1st stanza does not narrow down WWWH , it narrows down the the hiding spot but we will find that WWWH is in the same area.

    • A agree that we will find WWWsH in the area of search – we just disagree as to where that search area is. MANY searchers like the YNP area, I do not – 🙂 JDA

    • JPE,

      The first stanza you said “narrows down the hiding spot”, how is that so, when we were told “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.

      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/s.” f

      What part of stanza one that narrows down the hiding spot? I don’t see even a remote suggestion in that stanza that narrows down the hiding spot.

      IMO the first stanza is an intro to what he did, keeping a secret, and will give hints in the remaining 5 stanzas to find the chest that contains new and old gold. There is nothing in the first stanza that points to a geographical place, nor are there any directions given.

      Forrest in the beginning said at the link above, “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure.”f IMO the first stanza has the few words that will not help.

      Just Say’n

        • FD,

          Debatable, there are hints and clues in the poem. Just go’n by the poem, “And hint of riches new and old.” Maybe he couldn’t work in the word “clue” in the poem.

          • Yes, it would seem that when f used “hint” in the first stanza that would mean the hint is right there, not somewhere else.

            Just like when he used “Begin” to signify the beginning clue.

      • So, CharlieM, you think Forrest, an accomplished wordsmith and imaginative writer, spent 15 years crafting a poem and left the 1st stanza as an unimaginative literal introduction?

        IMO the first stanza metaphorically frames the entire poem and will turn out to have significant relevance to the solution. In what way, I can’t say (as in I don’t know) but there are words that will relate to (add to) the solution. “alone in there”, “bold”, “hint of” “new and old” . If nothing in your solve can be metaphorically associated with the first stanza, then you probably need a new solve.

        mBG

      • I’m with FD. He also said not to discount any of the nouns. Doesn’t matter, the first stanza is just as important as the rest. And again, the hints are just as important as the clues, if not more so.

  29. Ok , i believe the first stanza is a big hint to where to look for the first clue . when i very first heard about the chase i had no idea where to start , i have never been to any of the search states , so there i was looking at the map in TFTW of Rocky Mountains thinking [ you got to be kidding me ] but after reading poem many times and TTOTC a few times i looked back to the map and GE , for ME , stanza # 1 is saying that in all of the Rocky`s there is a place that HE went alone more than any other place and i think he was a kid , he did say that he is [ almost umbilically connected to the place ] . i was drawn to West Yellowstone and YNP and yes i have been taken in other directions but have always came back to WHERE I STARTED . just sayin

      • Aaron , hi , i have set at a computer for many hours [ i expect much as any searcher ] i have read the poem and book many times and looked at maps till i was seeing double and i can`t think of the chest being anywhere but in one stretch of roadway [ thats just a way to put it ] I truly believe it is somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road . am i dreaming ? I DON`T THINK SO

        • JPE, We are translating the poem in a similar fashion I think, but are in different areas. I have searched up and down the area you are looking on though. I’m headed to my spot this weekend 🙂

          • Hi Aaron,

            “somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road” – be careful there – too many hungry grizzlies (especially if you go 500 ft out of trails). They don’t like visitors 🙂
            Good luck and be safe 🙂

          • Thanks Andy, by the way that is JPE that is “somewhere between West Yellowstone and Old Faithful , just about 500 ft off the road”. I’m going a little further than 500′ from a road, but also in grizzly territory. There will be two of us both with bear spray.

  30. We have been working hard on finding explanations for Forrest Fenn’s poem. During winter 18/19 we’ve got our solution – it is consistent and quite simple.
    We were (and still are) that conviced about it, that we planned and undertook a treasure-hunting-expedition in New Mexico in May 19. This was not a one-day-trip for us – we live in Switzerland! Four guys of us had some fun and exciting days in the Rocky Mountains. Our goal was to find the last clue (we know that it is necessary to be on site for that) – and of course – to find the treasure.

    Unfortunately we didn’t find it. We underestimated the weather in May in the mountains of New Mexico. There was still too much melting water in ‚our‘ canyon and we even got some snowfall. Althought we reached the place that we wanted, it was not possible to search there as intensive as it would have been necessary.

    We really would like to go back for another attempt. But for us it’s just too expensive and time-consuming to go for another searching-expedition.

    So we decided to share our solution with the community in this blog. We will add some Videos that describes it clue by clue – and parallel we complete our treasure map step by step. We hope to give some inspiration. And we hope to get a kickback from the one who finds the treasure due to our solution :-).

    We just published our solution about ‘where warm waters halt’ on our site. Have a look on our site https://www.get-it-now.ch

    Be careful when you search along our solution at ‚our place‘. We think that the place is not really too dangerous, but there can obviously bee too much water after the snowmelt and after heavy rainfalls.

      • Yes – it’s a great area – we enjoyed it during our treasure-hunting expedition in New Mexico very much. But for us it’s “only” the starting-point for our treasure map. Our way leads us further south.

        We just published our solution-video no 4 with our guess about what should be taken which canyon down and about the home of brown. Have fun and good luck 🙂 !

  31. I made it to the center of the Caldera, as I thought it was there, but the only thing I found were elk bones scattered about.

    Good Luck,

    BDM

    • Sorry you didn’t find what you sought, but not everyone can find an elk skeleton – So, you found something that most can not 🙂 JDA

  32. While looking in YHP in Ocher Springs Area I found a complete Buffalo Skull, no arrowhead embedded, but all the same pretty neat.

    BDM

  33. I think I have a new idea on WWWH.

    I had planned to spend the summer in my search location until I came home with the TC. Unfortunately, a family issue kept me from leaving until this month. As I was firming up plans last night, I learned something that I think may interest some of you, regarding Where Warm Waters Halt.

    I feel certain about my WWWH and my HOB. But, I have discovered that my WWWH fits a different description of WWWH in addition to the reason I have chosen it as my personal WWWH. It fits for two reasons. Pretty sure I’ve never heard this definition before.

    Apparently there is an international system of classifying calm verses rapid water. This is important to know if you are kayaking or rafting in a river or stream. There are six different classes of water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_scale_of_river_difficulty All of the classes are assigned a number I-IV. Each is also given a color code. Level V is red. I notice that each classification color is a warm color except for level I which is green. (think green verses red street lights-Eric Sloan waiting for the light to change). So anyway; one definition of “warm” can relate to a color that is warm. So I find it interesting to apply this information to the sentence “Begin it where warm waters halt”. There is actually more to the word halt used here, if I am right. But, focusing on strictly the classification of river rapids (because I can’t share what else I believe about “halt”), lets look at how the river classification would define this sentence. If a river is classified as anything but calm waters which could be considered halted, the color classification would be “warm” (magenta, red, orange, yellow). But, if the river is classified as green, it would not be warm. It would be cool. So if you look at a river where the rapid water which is classified as a warm color, and you see it suddenly change to calm water, it would then be classified as green. So when warm (classification) turns to calm waters, you could say that warm waters halted. I think this requires no stretching of any definitions. It is simple! Rapid waters which are classified as warm will halt when they calm and thus become not warmly classified because calm waters are classified as green.

    Not that I rely upon the opinion of the “little girl in India”, but it is interesting to note that this classification system is International; meaning that the little girl in India could know this information if she had studied rivers.

    I think this

    • I originally agreed with this assessment and was why I was under the impression that WWWH was Warm Springs right below Warm Springs Cliff in the heart of Dinosaur National Monument. It meets the Yampa River. It is literally due south of Browns Park NWR. That river is no place for the Meek as it is a Class IV rapid going down the canton if I remember correctly. I did some research of that area and back in the 70s there was a huge rock avalanche increasing the water depth. They stated typically every 1000 years there is a huge rock slide that changes the area and water. Due to Fenns comment about it might change in the future (not exact words), I took this as heavy loads and water high.

      Taking the canyon down following the rapid, the river draws nigh to the left, wrapping around Jenny Lind Rock to the upside down Omega symbol (Horse shoe looking at it). This leads you to Pool Creek (There’ll be no paddle up your creek) to go along with the Jenny Lind Rock avalanche. Hear me all and listen good I took to mean Whispering Cave area

      • I see what you are saying James. But personally, I believe “No Place For The Meek” is not asking us to subjectively choose a place that is not for the meek to venture. I believe the entire poem means exactly what it says, and I believe it guides us without us subjectively deciding anything. I think it gives us precise instructions. Meek can mean Pacific. In my opinion, Meek means Pacific. As in, the water that drains from this area does not end up in the Pacific. Just my opinion of course.

    • Flutterby,
      That’s been my definition of WWWH from the beginning and I believe that f describes the exact location in TTOTC.

    • I like that this gives a backwards interpretation. Warm waters halt when they become calm. Begin it where white waters halt. Fun interpretation.

    • Flutterby – Great observation!

      Forrest’s corresponding description, IMO:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2019/04/28/forrest-gets-mail-20/#comment-764778

      Slow and green and cold in the bends, there on the Madison River. Where the big Brown and Rainbow lunkers hide in the ‘buckets’. Or, so my fly fishing librarian friend experienced, yesterday morning, while floating the bends below the S-curve at Silver Creek in Idaho. Awesome trico hatch, Forrest! But she caught the bigguns, late morning, using a hopper and a well placed cast.

  34. As always, apologies if this has been discussed. What if WWWH is the source of the Missouri River.

    My reasoning: FF has quoted multiple times the T.S. Eliot lines “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time.”

    The following lines in the T.S. Eliot poem go: Through the unknown, unremembered gate, when the last of earth left to discover is that which was the beginning; AT THE SOURCE OF THE LONGEST RIVER
    the voice of the hidden waterfall
    And the children in the apple-tree.

    Longest river is the Missouri, so where is there a waterfall near it’s source?

    Thoughts

    • Utmost Headwaters of the Missouri is Browers Spring in Hell Roaring Canyon at 44° 33.025’N 111° 28.348’W ( there is an informative google earth community post nearby on google earth)

      Unless you want to go by name, then look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Headwaters_State_Park

      That article also describes Lemhi Pass which was considered the source for a while. (at the headwaters of Trail Creek 44° 59.012’N 113° 26.435’W)

      mBG

      • Of course now you are going to have to go to Lillian Lake (Forrest’s Mother’s name) which is on hell roaring creek below the headwaters.

        mBG

    • The Headwaters State Park, and the source of the Missouri is a serene spot. It is below 5000 feet, and following the Missouri takes you even lower in elevation unless you leave the river at some point way downstream and head up into one of the mountainous areas in the Helena National Forest.

  35. What if warm also means = Mid or middle
    (deduced from: warm is middle of 2 “w” words plus also mid sentence of Begin and Halt)
    Then perhaps some options could be:
    *Middle fork of a river
    *Middle river
    *Middle creek (lot of these but needs a canyon like Middle Creek in yellowstone or near Hole in the Wall or near Vail etc.)
    *Mid-way geyser basin
    *Or middle plus “ace in the hole” (alone in there) could be Firehole midway maybe?

    Just thinking only of poem words only here.

  36. Ever notice that on the Firehole there is a upper lip curve or like a ‘double omicron’ midway?

    Halt synonym = end = point like a drawing point of a pencil?
    Didn’t Forrest say he liked fishing in river bends?
    Aren’t some of those also what some might call ‘points.’
    Like Steamboat point for example?

  37. Hi All;

    I have had several different places where Warm Waters Halted. Most have involved a smaller body of water (A stream or creek or some-such) joining a larger body of water – a river or lake.

    This afternoon I thought about another interpretation. What if TWO little streams – having possibly one source, ended at a lake or river or somewhere. Wouldn’t that be warm water(S) halting? HUMMM – Has possibilities – JDA

    • Ok… has this kind of idea been thrown around before when I wasn’t looking?

      You say you have had “several different places where warm waters halted” – Fenn has said “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt…”

      So my wondering goes like this:
      What if you take your very favorite warm waters halt, follow it to it’s conclusion because it’s PERFECT – but when you go there, no chest. (Sound familiar? Me too.) Your friend has a warm waters halt of similar “type” but different location. He thinks it’s PERFECT – but when he goes there, no chest. So what if each of you, going through the poem line by line, successfully found ONE CLUE. Once through the poem = 1 clue. So with this line of thinking there would be NINE places where warm waters halt (as well as the locations indicated by the lines that follow), you would have to know where each general solve location is, and something about them (locations/names/historys/geographys) will help you to figure out how to follow them precisely…

      Too complicated?

      -even

  38. frank, on a more serious note, I think you have to drive up the “canyon down” to get to WWWH possibly coming from the HOB. But there may be multiple ways to get to WWWH. It’s possible you drive by or thru some of the clues.
    I don’t think it matters where you came from or how you get to WWWH.
    The most import thing is you get there.
    I’ll put this over on the WWWH page where it belongs.

      • I think it would be a good question to ask Fenn although he probably wouldn’t answer.
        Did you drive by or thru any of the clues on the way to WWWH?

        • Jake I answered your question at what are we looking for- the clues start at wwwh from there – from wwh there are no clues south of or east of wwwh the clues go from the east to the west to the north – so he drove by the clues till he got to the last clue in the wood where he parked- wwwh is the start of all the clues

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *