Sparrow’s Speculations Part 2…

words

August 2019
by Sparrow  

It was interesting to see the reactions to my first article, Sparrow’s Speculations #1. The first article mainly revolved around one sentence that Forrest had shared on his birthday, 8-22-2016. If you read that article you would know that I shared that I thought it was very possible Forrest was revealing the Car Rental agency he used (for part or all of the journey) when hiding the Treasure. 

The reactions ranged from acceptance that it was “more than a coincidence” to downright mockery of the whole idea. I expected this. As I had mentioned, these are “speculations” about several oddities I have encountered as I did my investigations into the poem itself, and many “hints” I feel that Forrest has given us over the years. Though not unique, my method of solving the poem is very different from the method the majority of searchers use. I know this because I follow the blogs, and read the “solves”, and rarely see anyone approach the poem the way I do.

I must admit that I am very reluctant to share what I am about to share, as this has taken considerable time and thought. In some ways (this sounds quite egotistical I admit) I feel this will blow the lid off the way people are searching, and will eventually lead to an intelligent person solving this awesome puzzle.

What I am about to share in a couple of short articles are “examples” of acrostics I have found in the poem. The first “example” is merely “speculation”, and displays a couple of oddities I have encountered searching, with the final offering being something that I believe will be extremely difficult to deny, or to chalk up to “coincidence” or CONFIRMATION BIAS.  

THE AMAZING FORREST FENN

I must confess that after investigating what I am about to show you, and seeing what Forrest has done, I am completely amazed. When Forrest said that the poem took him 15 years to complete, I can understand why. I know this was not labor that took 365 days a year for 15 years to complete when he says this, but it was still a tremendous amount of work. A lot of trial and error, and imagination were involved in completing it. It is actually quite astounding, and I feel I have really only scratched the surface of what is actually hidden in this poem.

Constructing even a small poem with a few verses in acrostic form is difficult. Imagine constructing the poem of 24 lines, which has acrostics hidden on several lines, horizontal and vertical, and even diagonally throughout the whole poem? This is an amazing feat! It boggles the mind in some instances, when realizing ALL of the words communicated to us by doing this.  Here is the first example. Again, this first example does not include ALL the words that I have found, as the final example I give within the next couple of articles will be almost impossible to refute. This first example contains “speculation” as it is possible that it is “coincidence”. I will leave you to be the judge of that.

sppoem

 This example is using the poem in the form given (all stanzas in place).  I have tried to make a variation in size for the letters in this example. In future examples I may use different colors for the various words used.  The very first acrostics I saw when reading the poem were GAIT (Gone Alone In There), WAFT (Wise And Found The) and BAIT (Brave And In The). In other articles I have written, I have shown how Forrest has “hinted” at these same words SEVERAL times. They are basic acrostics. They could very well be random. However, the hints Forrest has shared lead me to believe these are very REAL. These acrostics are in the first line, the 13th line, and 23rd line horizontally.  These are the BACKBONE of the poem in my opinion. 

The second set of acrostics I saw when investigating is the word HORN.  There are (2) obvious examples of HORN in the poem.  The first is on the beginning letters in the 4th line: “Hint Of Riches New” (HORN). This acrostic connected with another acrostic on exactly the 20th line vertically downward: HORN.  For me this is no coincidence. I will explain in detail why HORN (on line #4 horizontally) meeting “horn” (on exactly the 20th line vertically) is very important to the solution in a future article.

Please also note the diagonal acrostic “EDEN” which starts at the last letter of line #1 and heads vertically down to meet the “N” in the vertical acrostic “horn”. I believe EDEN may be an important part to the solution also. That is why I am including that acrostic in this first example.  Again, I will explain in detail why this is so in a future article.

I have also included three other DIAGONAL acrostics found in the poem:  to hasten” (begins on the 8th line diagonally upwards to end on 1st line), “birth” (backwards acrostic downwards beginning on 13th line), and the word “today” (15th line upwards diagonally to 11th line).  I MUST POINT OUT once again that I am not altering the poem in any way here. These letters are THERE. I have not added them.  For the words “to hasten” to be coincidentally diagonal in the poem where I show them could be coincidental, but this is very doubtful.  Especially if we consider that we are to look “QUICKLY” down—and the words “to hasten” mean to cause something to happen more quickly. Though I do not know the exact reason, it appears we are “to hasten” in the search.

The last Acrostic in this example could be entirely coincidental, but again it is very doubtful that it is.  It is a VERY curious acrostic to be sure:   DAENISM.  This starts on the 11th line and spelling DAENISM downwards in a vertical manner to the 17th line.  What is strange about this acrostic is that the diagonals “birth”, “today” and “to hasten” could refer to it in some way.  I must point out clearly that I FIRST saw the acrostic, then googled it, not knowing what “DAENISM” even was.  Imagine my surprise when I saw that DAENISM is indeed a word, and that it has a very curious meaning to it. I did not know there was such a word before I saw the acrostic in the poem.  This acrostic has 7 letters that are THERE. Coincidental? You decide.

Please go to the following link:  https://particracy.fandom.com/wiki/Daenism  or simply google DAENISM.  It is actually a philosophy that someone at WIKI Fandom CREATED. They created it several years ago. The reason I mention this is due to my mention of Sequoyah in my first article.  Remember that Sequoyah INVENTED a written language for the Cherokee people. Could it be possible that Forrest in some way was involved in INVENTING a philosophy?  That sounds far-fetched, and Forrest may have NOTHING to do with this at all. It did cross my mind though, as Forrest is like Sequoyah.   Forrest does what HE wants to do and no one can stop him. There could very well be a connection.

An important aspect of DAENISM is its symbol: A WHEEL.  I mention this because mdc777 (a contributor to Dal’s blog) pointed out in one of his own YouTube videos that another searcher had found a way to reveal the words “TRY THE WHEEL” in the poem itself.  This is what shocked me when I found the acrostic “TRY AUSBYS” as a hint.  I shared this in my first article.  TRY AUSBYS.  TRY THE WHEEL.   Very curious indeed.  Could THE WHEEL be the wheel in DAENISM and not another wheel?  Again, I leave that for your consideration.  Again, google DAENISM to see its symbol is indeed a wheel.

Again, this first EXAMPLE of the poem has no PROVEN acrostic in it. I also do not know how these acrostics lead to the solution. They are curiosities and oddities.  As I proceed in future EXAMPLES though, I will add maps and photos to the mix.  Someone had stated I offered no photos or maps and should burn my ideas.  I will share photos, links and maps in upcoming articles that will become harder and harder to refute in my serious opinion.  I do want to EMPHASIZE once more though that I had not added to the poem, or moved anything around.  The words that are revealed to be acrostics are THERE.  I did not “cherry pick” them.  Accept or reject them. That is entirely up to you.

To be continued…….

-Sparrow

 

 

 

 

 

116 thoughts on “Sparrow’s Speculations Part 2…

  1. A little too much for me man. In my opinion you’re selecting letters and words you want to select in order to make the solve fit. I see words in there such as Wet that are not capitalized or bold and FF stated the chest is wet. Why didn’t you focus on that?

    If you stand up, clap your hands three times, and do the cha-cha slide, you might be able to land a dart on a camels apple and it might feel good to the homely girl . ‍♂️

      • Yes– I had considered many wheels before. Medicine wheels, car wheels, cartwheels etc. I had NEVER considered a wheel in Daenism. That is why I shared that the symbol is a wheel.

    • James—
      Wet is 3 letters long. It could easily be a coincidence. “To hasten” and “Daenism” are 8 and 7 letters long. These are far harder to call “coincidence”.
      Yes—I could have emboldened WET and several other short words also. My intent was to show the odds against coincidence, and also how remarkable it is that Forrest could actually accomplish this. YOU try to create a poem with acrostics in it like this. Ir is EXTREMELY difficult to do. I admire Forrest Fenn more than words could ever say for this accomplishment. I truly do.

      Consider “Daenism”. Read the article. A rich person who gives up riches to break the cycle of reincarnation and rebirth. “So why is it that I MUST go, and LEAVE MY TROVE for all to seek”? You dont find that to be the least intriguing James? You don’t see any connections between it and what Forrest is doing?

      How can I be selecting words I want? I explained that DAENISM was a word I’d never heard of before. And yet it HAPPENS to fall all on the same vertical line in the poem? Do you want to disbelieve so much you are willing to just shrug it off? Be my guest if so.
      As I mentioned this is only the FIRST example I have given. It will be interesting to see how long the deniers continue to deny what is clearly there.
      All the best to you though my friend! I’d love to see you find Indulgence one day!!

  2. In Daenism, daena refers to cosmic law and order, but it is also applied to the teachings of the Bidar. Daena also refers to the awareness of the observer (witness) yet inclusive of mind, body, senses and surroundings, however not identified with it. Hamjariān Edit Hamjariān ( Aldegarian : , Gao-Indralan : 輪迴), literally meaning “going or wandering through” or “continuous movement”, refers to the continual repetitive cycle of birth and death that arises from ordinary beings’ grasping and fixating on a self and experiences.

  3. Sparrow- you missed the word “toren” down from the I in wise. It means chief. Or the word tor which is a rocky hilltop. Or bulge, belly, swelling. Good stuff here!

  4. Sparrow, what are u doing?
    That’s kinda interesting.
    I wouldn’t mess with the poem.
    I do like the horn you mentioned.

    • Amy—-
      How am I messing with the poem? The poem above is just as it is shown in TTOTC. I have changed nothing. I have moved nothing. All I have done is FOUND words that are ALREADY THERE. Read it and see. :). All the best to you!

      • Great contributions Sparrow. Nice of you to post for everyone. It shows that you are willing to learn who Forrest is, and perhaps determine some of his reasons for hiding the treasure. I believe that will assist you with determining the trove/chest location. Knowing about a person is different than trying to know him. I’m guessing Forrest wanted to be known through his poem. IMO

      • Sparrow,
        Actually you did mess with it…you took out the spaces between words. That’s an intentional and seemingly arbitrary decision that you made and If I’m not mistaken that will cause problems with your diagonal and vertical words.

          • Sparrow, Colo beat me to it. I have to agree with him. I like the idea of using the poem to get a solve, but, and I may be wrong, but the ATF of “nope” comes to mind. We can’t get a correct solve by just using the words of the poem. I know this is an example, and some of the things you’ve found, I can see, but we are just using the words in the poem in this example. so I would be against it.
            That’s not to say that this is just a precursor to the actual solve, and that it may involve all aspects, IDK, but just going by this second installment, I’m at a mixed feeling. You are not really messing with the poem, but in a sense, leaving things out kind of is messing with the poem. And really, saying: Removing the “space” between the earth and the moon doesn’t change what the earth and the moon are does it? Well yes, it does. Bringing them together forms a totally different planet. Like here in the poem, it forms a totally different poem. One that is based only on the words/ or letters of the poem, hence the “nope” ATF.
            Don’t get me wrong, I like the effort of solving the poem, and it boarders force fitting, but doesn’t. I just think it needs tweaking. Maybe those tweaks will be clearer on the next installment.
            I do agree with your “wheel” thought. Or I should say I like it, since I’ve found a lot from the wheel thing. To bad horn isn’t bell, lol, but that’s just me. Keep it up Sparrow, on to installment three…

          • Poison—
            Thanks for the input. But I’m not sure I understand what you mean by not getting a solve just by using the words in the poem? Forrest has clearly stated that the poem alone can lead you to the Treasure. The books can “help”, but without the poem you have nothing. Maybe I am misunderstanding you though. I appreciate the reply you gave.

          • Thanks Poisonivey— I understand what you are saying now. If someone were to find the poem and did not know it was referring to something hidden in the RM’s, they would have nothing to go on. Gotcha. Thanks

          • Sparrow,
            As Poison points out, yes removing the space between the earth and moon changes them into an unnatural alignment. Left justifying the poem text (originally printed in the book as center justified, and removing spaces) puts the text into an unnatural alignment. This is a choice you made without any indication that F suggested it. In doing so you came up with some “words”….this suggests an ‘end justifies the means’ kind of rationalization.

            Did you at least try aligning things as printed?

          • Colokid—-
            They are aligned. All first letters are on top of each other= first column. Second letters = 2nd column. Go back and look again. Removing spaces has not altered how the letters are aligned at all.

        • Ace—
          Thanks. I have considered the 3 commas in the middle of sentences and whether they should be given a box or kept with the letter. I will experiment. I have largely ignored punctuation, as most is at the END of sentences. But this could be an error. As far as “centering” not sure that matters. There may actually be hints about alignment, such as “the end is ever drawing nigh”. This could refer to aligning to the left. Thanks for your post.

          • I went back and checked the original poem from the book Ace and it is aligned left, not centered. It is centered on Dals blog, but the poem copies show left alignment.

          • Hi Sparrow,
            Since the word “Just” appears in the poem 2ce, do you think it’s possible that maybe we can justify both left and right for two sets of directions? I’ve experimented with the idea that left justify=broad directions and right justify=tight or close instructions.

            (Just an idea since ff decided to justify left and centeted ss well. Maybe justifying isn’t
            messing with the poem).
            Now, eating with the poem or using it as puppy potty training paper – yep…
            qualifies as messing.

          • I like what you are doing and where you are heading, and I see a lot of potential here. If nothing else, helping to verify the exact warm waters halt. I have tried many of these same steps myself. But as stated by others, the poem in TTotC is center justified, with spaces, and punctuation. You mentioned commas, but there are also apostrophes. I believe, w/o reciting the poem, there are three contractions.

  5. Sparrow, thanks for the share and well thought out write up. Very good point about coincidences adding up to a certain level that they become much more than ” mere coincidences “. Folks can truly appreciate a strong effort and a glimpse into a architectural thought process.

  6. You could put 100 Cimpanzees in a room for ten years with typewriters and they might have a chance of typing Shakespeare. I prefer just to read Shakespeare rather than thinking of all the coincidental ways it could possibly be created.

    Yes. You can take many writings and find many coincidental acrostics in them. No doubt about that. But I have only shared PART of what is hidden in the poem. I assure you, the odds of this being coincidental are phenomenal. Just my opinion of course. All the best to you!

    • You were responding to my deleted suggestion that you take any paragraph in Forrest’s book and break it into lines of similar length and look for such constructs. If you look hard enough you will find whatever you are looking for.

      There are only 5 vowels, and all words have them. It is very easy to get words formed from the “random” consonants surrounding them. In fact, it is unavoidable.

      The odds of me stubbing my toe today and yesterday, of all the days in the existence of the universe, was infinitesimal. But it happened. Does that make it intentional? You are saying that coincidental constructs are intentional because you see a pattern after the fact. Humans are designed to see patterns, even when there are none. It’s how the brain works.

      I wish you the best with this approach, and, actually, I hope you prove me wrong. In spite of my skepticism I will continue to dissect all you produce. Intellectual flexibility is an important attribute, and even as I criticize, I listen and analyze.

      mBG

      • Thanks mBG——
        I must admit that these are only “speculations”. I have a tendency to want to defend this as “fact” and of course that hasn’t been proven. Thanks for your input. Appreciated.

  7. My previous post got deleted for not citing the quotes. also I’ll break it up into two posts so both aspects will get addressed.

    I am not supportive of your approach because:

    1. Forrest said the difference between “answer” and “answers” made no difference
    https://dalneitzel.com/2013/06/19/forrest-gets-mail-4/

    2. Personally I think this approach is covered by the “fonts, charts, graphs … will not assist… ” quote. https://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/26/scrapbook-sixty-two/

    mBG

  8. I read today that NASA will again try and put a person on the moon; so I called them up and told them that Sparrow is already there and able to chat here on this page..

    How’s the weather?

    All joking of course. I still think you are pulling my leg.

    • If he isn’t pulling your leg, then you don’t have any.
      I just think he likes attention.
      At least he shared something and not sure what it’s worth but not worth anything to me.

      • Yes Jake I do like attention. Most people do in one way or another. But I’m fine with it not being worth anything to you. It’s there to accept or reject. Thanks for commenting one way or another.

  9. Congratulations, Sparrow, what you’re doing is both important and revealing.

    Why should we hasten? Maybe because time is short to make the necessary changes.

    Horn? Study the header at https://www.oldsantafetradingco.com

    Birth? There’s plenty more where that came from! But are we just going to allow the currents to sweep us along blindly to the next inlet?

    Daenism? It’s almost a facsimile of Buddhist philosophy. This isn’t the first time that Wiki Fandom has been implicated. My own research led me into another virtual world there (wrote about it a few months ago.)

    So what’s the relevance? It may not lead us directly to the treasure, but thinking about the significance of these morsels in relation to our own personal quests and we’re already a step closer, IMO.

    I think your post is timely, Sparrow. There is a tremendous reluctance to accept that this strange mission is anything other than a game to while away our spare time. We all need to WAKE UP!

    (Dal, if you delete this, I’ll personally haunt Lummi Island in the form of a maladjusted tree spirit!)

    • Forgot to mention that, using a slightly different method of looking at the words/phrases that are buried but contiguous, you get things like “raise the nose,” “dead fuse,” “bog,” “right,” “I see,” etc. These have all had (limited) relevance for me but, whether or not they were intentionally mapped, they have sometimes been useful as spurs to the thought process. An interesting little curiosity is that if you add in the non-contiguous article “a” that lies below “dead fuse,” you get the phrase in the form of a question mark.

      IMO, I don’t believe these will get you any closer to the hidey spot, but like the SBs they can get the juices flowing.

    • Voxpops,
      That’s a fun observation. Thanks for pointing it out.

      I looked at ff’s Old Santa Fe Trading Co header. Very interesting that the horns point to “at” and encompass “FE” which means “faith” or FE – the symbol for iron.
      By the way, Fe, fie, fo, fum is inside the poem. I Have not determined why.

  10. A very small chest is in the woods. How do I walk to it? I solved the poem with Daenism? I don’t see your route to Nirvana.

    • RH, you need strict logic to find the chest, IMO. But there’s a huge gulf between getting your starting point and finding the hiding place. How do you bridge it? With imagination. What do you find when you REALLY start to use imagination? Only you can answer that, but I believe it will not only start to fill in the gaps between the nodes of logic, but it will also open up new vistas. I believe that learning to see is an essential part of the exercise.

      An analogy might be this:
      “Atomic electron transition is a change of an electron from one energy level to another within an atom[1] or artificial atom.[2] It appears discontinuous as the electron “jumps” from one energy level to another, typically in a few nanoseconds or less. It is also known as an electronic (de-)excitation or atomic transition or quantum jump.

      Electron transitions cause the emission or absorption of electromagnetic radiation in the form of quantized units called photons.”
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_electron_transition

      Like crossing the gap between the answer to one clue and the next, the electrons need an input of energy to change levels. You might consider the “spark” that is the result of imaginative exploration as the change in energy that causes “light” to be generated and that moves you up to the next level.

      Maybe it’s not a perfect analogy, but the best I can do off the top of my head.

      • Vox,
        WOW! You’re on a level that blows me away. I’m just a simple man that works off of the left brain/right brain thingy…but I do tip my hat to those of you that can expand that capacity to exceed both of them PLUS SOME!

        Holy Batman! Makes my head spin like Linda Blairs.

        I’ve learned so much during this Chase that I’m starting to feel like Al Bundy with information overload…but in a gooder way!

        ByGeorge

        • ByGeorge, I’m also just a simple guy – but one who blew his chances earlier in life. When this challenge came along I was determined to not allow it to beat me. I don’t have a fraction of the knowledge or expertise of some in this hunt, but, for better or worse, I do sometimes have the ability to “smell a rat.” And this one reeks!

          • Vox,
            Do ya mind me asking what you mean by “smelling a rat”?

            Are you referring to a solution? A searcher?

            I think this Chase has brought out the best and not-so-best in me.

            I had a dream a week or so ago that I was going to be arrested over my decisions along the way these last few years or so.

            I am tired. I am seriously just thinking of just giving my work and pictures for all to muse over because like so many others I could care less and less and less about it all.

            I hope someone can benefit from my existence and hard work. This whole ordeal is a struggle at best for me and I’m pretty sure there are libraries in prisons.

            Enjoy your struggles! It ain’t easy and I’m glad it’s almost over for me.

            Jiminy Cricket

          • ByGeorge;

            I sure hope you stick around. We all get tired every now and again, and then we have an “AH-HA” moment, and here we go again. Good luck in whatever you decide – JDA

          • ByGeorge, I only meant that there was enough evidence to suggest that there was more to this hunt than what appeared on the surface.

            I understand about your struggle. It has been the same for me; at times, not at all pleasant. Dive deep enough into the sea and you’re going to confront some formidable monsters. Getting to truly know ourselves can be a heck of a challenge.

            If I were not so addicted, I would probably be long gone. But by sticking with it, a glimmer on the horizon has served to provide hope – and it is gradually getting brighter. I’m not talking about finding the gold coins – they’re incidental – but something else far more valuable.

            You must do what you feel is right for you. But however tired you are, I believe you’re in safe hands.

          • Vox– I was going to ask what ByGeorge asked also. What do you mean “smell a rat”?
            I hope you dont mean that I am trying to mislead or trip up anyone. Perhaps you can clarify a bit. All the best to you.

          • Sparrow, I answered George above – nothing to do with you trying to mislead. I am trying to say that we have to look beyond what appears on the surface. Fenn said, “It doesn’t matter who you are, it only matters who they think you are.” I think we need to bear that in mind the whole time when dealing with the chase. Superficial won’t cut it. Icebergs lie mostly below the surface, as those aboard the Titanic found out too late.

    • RH—
      I never said you’d solve the poem because of Daenism. It is one wrung in the ladder we’re climbing. Just my opinion of course.

  11. Sparrow,

    You are one creative soul! You may have something here that I – will overlook – because I will not be looking.

    The problem that I see with acrostics is that they are too easy, too easily biased and too eager to mislead.

    For example, I quickly wrote out a randomly created sentence:
    I love cats, but my cat just ate a starving big red bird. I think I want a dog now!

    I t a st ed I t t o o !

    And it happens to contain an acrostic (above) that is too easy, too easily biased (if you wanted to believe I was insane), and too eager to mislead (if you were looking for confirmation of my insanity.)

    IF you are only looking for single word acrostic clues it becomes easy, biased and misleading on hyper-drive (IMO).

    In any event, I applaud you for putting your thoughts out there. I find each clue leading to another as a matter of confirmation and it becomes impossible to share anything significant without revealing way too much and handing over the trove. Follow your imagination and you may well solve the ethical dilemma before I do. You are one interesting contributor to this community! (IMO)

    (Hope this acrostic example posts as clearly as it looks when I hit Enter)

    • I think you may want to look up the definition of an acrostic and how they are used. A true acrostic is mathematic in nature. You don’t just pick whatever letter you want from each word. Acrostics are placed in a pattern that repeats.
      But thanks for the input.

  12. Nice work, Sparrow.

    I’m in the Scrapbook 62 camp until a preponderance of evidence evicts me from those comfortable, uncrowded quarters.

    Point of Contention: Daenism is listed on your link as having been founded in the first century CE by Bahram Bidar so I am not sure you should be attributing such to WIKI Fandom from a mere several years ago, let alone trying to associate such with FF. As the saying goes, garbage in is garbage out, and this portion, at least, IMO, is tangentially flawed.

    I applaud your efforts and look forward to reading more despite my SB62 mentality.

    • SB62 is very interesting:
      “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures,… …will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

      So we know that none of those things will lead us to the hidey spot. But what exactly does he mean by “offered as positive solutions?” Why “positive” and not just “solutions.” And solutions to what? And who has offered them? The usual way of reading this is to believe that searchers have emailed Forrest with all those elements and he is saying no to all of them. But as we know, Forrest is a master at hiding things in innocuous-seeming phrases.

      We already know that Forrest himself has used the word “riddle” in connection with his poem, and yet here he is apparently suggesting that a riddle is no use. Could it be that we are misreading slightly? Although these things won’t lead us to the treasure, maybe, just maybe some of them could be helpful toward something else – something positive. I believe that positivity is absolutely integral to the final solution. And funnily enough, I was driving along in a foul mood the other day, under the malign influence of a stomach bug, when I came up behind a car with the license plate PO51 JOY – or as I read it “posi-joy” or “positivity plus joy.” I always need reminding of that, and I certainly needed it right then.

      • I interpret the “positive solution” portion as FF saying that some searchers who provided him with their solutions were using one or more of the listed items as part of their solve process and that they were sure (positive) that their solution was correct due to the apparent data derived from such usage.

        As to the riddle dilemma you present, IMHO it is fine for FF to refer to his poem as a riddle (singular), and say that other riddles (plural) are of no help with solving the poem. In other words, the concept of a riddle is ok, but the use of other riddles to try and decipher/solve the poem is folly.

        • That is at least how I am reading it, (right or wrong), that other “riddles” (plural) of the past are of no use, that his poem is as a whole, a ‘riddle’ (singular), that there is no ‘decoding’ involved of complex coded riddles in the poem, imo. of course I could be wrong in that interpretation.

          so we have multiple camps on this is good, what strikes me is neither camp, nor any ‘camp’ has gotten anywhere. ‘impossible’ seems to be the flavor of the day to me.

          but will only bear fruit in about 1000 yrs or so.

          • That’s a wonderful piece of rationalization, Writis, lol! I actually agree with you about no decoding (in a strict sense), but I wouldn’t be too sure about the 1000 years. You may or may not pay any attention to http://www.wherewarmwatershalt.com or give it any credence, but it’s interesting that for the past few weeks the site has shown the image of a museum – a place to display the objects of history – and said museum is in a place called Victor.

      • **** **** **** ****
        voxpops claimed “But as we know, Forrest is a master at hiding things in innocuous-seeming phrases.”
        **** **** **** ****

        I’m afraid I align with others who’ve posted. I’ll express it this way:

        We are demonstrably masters at finding and extracting seemingly-significant things in innocuous-seeming phrases.

        It doesn’t follow from that that a master must have hidden them there.

        There are only 26 letters in the alphabet.

        Consider Leonardo daVinci’s observation:
        “Look at walls splashed with a number of stains, or stones of various mixed colours. If you have to invent some scene, you can see there resemblances to a number of landscapes, adorned with mountains, rivers, rocks, trees, great plains, valleys and hills, in various ways. . . .

        . . . it should not hard for you to stop sometimes and look into the stains of walls, or the ashes of a fire, or clouds, or mud or like places, in which, if you consider them well, you may find really marvelous ideas. The mind of the painter is stimulated to new discoveries . . . because by indistinct things the mind is stimulated to new inventions.”

        Jake

    • Bowmarc—-
      Read the article again. Daenism is a created philosophy for a created world. If you read further you will see that people have CREATED an alternate world, with new continents, countries, and cultures. Bahram Bidar never existed in our world. I think you are missing the whole point to be honest with you. But all the best to you.

      • I only skimmed the article and now that I have learned that such is a fantasy based religion and a complete work of fiction that has somehow bridged itself over into our universe within the multiverse I am even more convinced that FF has about as much involvement with Daenism as he does with the Flat Earth movement. I still look forward to reading more about your theories/processes and I hope they prove me wrong.

        • Not a knock on your process, just an observation of my own using your method. Giving your acrostic picture above a cursory glance, I see the word TAO is created from the diagonal of the “T” in “Tired”, the “A” of “All”, and the “O” of “Effort”. Why the possible reference to two different religions via acrostics? The plot thickens.

          • Bowmarc, You mentioned the word TAO, and asked why introduce another religion? Adding to your observations, I also see the words mantra, guru, wicca, chant, pray… Maybe Forrest Fenn wove his ‘spiritual’ journey into the fabric of the poem.

  13. I think a serious response just encourages more of this kind of “solution” so I will refrain. Obviously, someone spent too much time doing word search puzzles as a child.

  14. Sparrow, I believe acrostic phrases are the architecture Mr. Fenn alluded to. You came up short with reference to “make all the lines cross in the right spot”. There is a way to do this. Good luck.

  15. HORN, Here is an excellent example of a horn landform on the Madison River, an area Forrest and his family fished often. The Sundance bench, and Madison River West camp are where ff’s mom and dad camped each summer in their airstream trailer after selling FenHaven.
    The great “horn” of the Madison looks like India. It’s my opinion that Forrest owned a home very close to here but sold it.

    https://caltopo.com/map.html#1

    • The horn of the Madison River what is given to the state of Montana (property ownership map indicated blue L shape state land easement..so that fishermen all can park and walk to the river.

  16. Sparrow: I think, (for your own benefit) you should find another poem or article of about the same length and approximately the same structure, and see what you can find with the same method, and spend as much time finding them, this would quickly confirm or possibly “de-confirm” your method.

    My feeling is that ff was not messing around in his instruction and meaning that there are no hidden ‘formulas’ or ‘codes’ or ‘ciphers’ type of message to be found, although he also made the mistake of including ‘riddles’ as one thing to discount; when the poem is clearly a riddle by anyone’s definition, including his.

    I think that was just an honest mistake though, but that is just me. Hard to say ‘honest’ and ‘mistake’ in the same sentence, but it does happen.

    • Yes, mistakes happen, but do you really think that the man who spent 15 years crafting the poem (and was probably thinking about it even before that), would make such a basic error – and not correct it?

      We all have a tendency to dismiss things we don’t understand or want to think about too deeply, particularly if they challenge our assumptions. It’s very easy to dismiss something as a mistake instead of really paying attention.

      • yes he spent at least 15 years on the poem, that does not mean he spent large amounts of time on his ATFs, I think he is like all the rest of us, and constantly making mistakes in ATFs… (well all the rest of us normal people) which of course makes the ‘chase’ that much harder. I think he is fine with the mistakes on two counts, that it does make the chase harder, and that he had already “corrected” this particular mistake by saying the poem is a riddle and saying that he only has to be correct 80% of the time.

        he never corrected and said the poem was a ‘cypher’, but he has corrected and said the poem is a ‘riddle’. of course some can dismiss that by saying a ‘cypher’ is a ‘riddle’ 🙂 isn’t communication wonderful.

    • Thanks for the input Writis. I will give what you have suggested a shot. If you read the list of things that won’t help you, you will notice that acrostics and anagrams are not mentioned though.
      A woman could say: “I won’t be attracted to you for your muscles, your shoulders, your hair, your feet, your eyes, your ears, etc. when what really attracts her is something she is NOT mentioning. Maybe your wit, kindness or humor. Catch my drift?

  17. “Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key. f”

    “Imagination is better than knowlege.”

    “When used properly, imagination also can be a treasure.”

    Sparrow. I think you’re doing EXACTLY what he’s told us to do and I commend you for that. Too bad some folks simply don’t want to listen.

    Take care………..Pinatubocharlie

  18. ‘The Allegory of the Cave’ by Plato

    In the Allegory of the Cave, Plato distinguishes between people who mistake sensory knowledge for the truth and people who really do see the truth. It goes like this:

    The Cave

    Imagine a cave, in which there are three prisoners. The prisoners are tied to some rocks, their arms and legs are bound and their head is tied so that they cannot look at anything but the stonewall in front of them.
    These prisoners have been here since birth and have never seen outside of the cave.
    Behind the prisoners is a fire, and between them is a raised walkway.
    People outside the cave walk along this walkway carrying things on their head including; animals, plants, wood and stone.

    The Shadows

    So, imagine that you are one of the prisoners. You cannot look at anything behind or to the side of you – you must look at the wall in front of you.
    When people walk along the walkway, you can see shadows of the objects they are carrying cast on to the wall.
    If you had never seen the real objects ever before, you would believe that the shadows of objects were ‘real.’

    The Game

    Plato suggests that the prisoners would begin a ‘game’ of guessing which shadow would appear next.
    If one of the prisoners were to correctly guess, the others would praise him as clever and say that he were a master of nature.

    The Escape

    One of the prisoners then escapes from their bindings and leaves the cave.
    He is shocked at the world he discovers outside the cave and does not believe it can be real.
    As he becomes used to his new surroundings, he realizes that his former view of reality was wrong.
    He begins to understand his new world, and sees that the Sun is the source of life and goes on an intellectual journey where he discovers beauty and meaning
    He see’s that his former life, and the guessing game they played is useless.

    The Return

    The prisoner returns to the cave, to inform the other prisoners of his findings.
    They do not believe him and threaten to kill him if he tries to set them free.

    (The other prisoners reaction to the escapee returning represents that people are scared of knowing philosophical truths and do not trust philosophers.)

    https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

    Will we be permanent prisoner or escapee?

      • Then we have people who pretend to ‘escape’, or have been abducted by aliens, that they profess to know the ‘truth’. similar to the posts here that say something like: ‘oh you are so close’, or ‘I am 100% sure of my wwh and hob’ or ‘There is a right way to do this’. and of course they were not abducted by aliens, and have not gained any knowledge that we don’t have, the proof being no chest.

        one should read the posts by people here on the HOD from 2014 and 2015.. or for that matter, any year… it is truly strange how many people have professed to ‘know’. or that ff was speaking directly to them through the blogs…

        Maybe I am too much of a connoisseur of history, and understand all the writings by the ‘winners’ are there because the other 1000 stories were never written by the losers simply because they were not around to write it. That the ‘winners’ simply were in the right place at the right time by a extremely large stroke of luck because someone had to be. which to their credit they pursued.

        look at it this way, when a dandelion or sea turtle or spawning salmon gives off it’s wonderful eggs and seeds, one in a thousand make it to fertile grounds. maybe even worse odds than that.

        Someone is going to be lucky and good, I know way too much history, I understand the odds in that… I don’t think too many searchers (that are posting) understand that, judging from all the posts about how ff is speaking directly to them, or the posts about 100% sure, they think they are the chosen one, they are swimming against a very strong current up a very strong waterfall.

        but hey, who am I to squish someone’s ‘egg’ 🙂

        don’t worry, not too many people will ever read this post, so the dream lives on.

    • That is a tough call, Vox. The author of the article you based your post upon (Philosophyzer—I’ll call him Phil for short) goes on to describe his/her interpretation of the escapee as the “Philosopher who seeks knowledge outside of the cave and outside of the senses.” Since you proffered this, I have to assume that you want to liken the allegory to the process of solving FF’s poem. In comparison to FF’s poem, then, I’d say that FF discourages the first part of Phil’s escapee interpretation, but encourages the latter. By this I mean that FF has said that “Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map” which is at odds with Phil’s view that the Escapee “seeks knowledge outside of the cave” whereby the cave would be representative of the boundaries FF has set for us (FF’s list of excellent research materials). Conversely, I can liken “outside of the senses” to FF’s repeated references to imagination.

      It really is a vicious cycle of wanting to be the escapee who is free to run down any tangent that catches their eye and/or imagination, and the prisoner who can only examine what is in front of him (AKA FF’s list of 3 excellent research materials. While I concede that FF did not say that these 3 are the ONLY viable research materials, it is also my belief that there has to be a limit on the degrees of separation between the book/poem as is, and the allowable upward limit to the level of study/research into same—In other words, getting advanced degrees in history, mathematics, numerology, etc. should not be required.)

      All IMHO, of course.

      • Thanks for that, Bowmarc. Not quite what I was getting at, but my fault for not supplying context.

        I was thinking about how, after nine years of the search, there’s still a closed-mindedness surrounding the chase. A lot of people still believe that if they can just pick (guess???) the right spot in the Rockies, they can find Fenn’s treasure. People see the shadows in the form of simple words – the poem and other writings – and believe that what they see is the whole truth that just needs to be “decoded” or connected to the right spot, when in fact the real truth lies behind and beyond, IMO. We need to escape our preconceptions, assumptions, and prejudices to be able to see clearly.

        Imagination is the key that we can use to begin to unlock the chains, IMO. It’s such a shame that when someone takes an imaginative approach they are so often immediately scoffed at or ignored. Beginning to look under the surface of things is a step towards a certain type of freedom. Sparrow is doing that. It may or may not lead to the bronze box, but it can lead down other even more interesting avenues.

        Fenn has set us the task of finding the key – knowing that it’s right there in front of us. It’s up to us whether we are prepared to use it or not. Surely, by now, the depth and strangeness of this whole enterprise must be resonating in searchers’ minds. But unless we open up to what is casting those shadows on the wall in front of us we won’t get anywhere. This is a very special opportunity, and we should grab it!

  19. Although I have given up this type of solve/clues after only a week into my search, it has raised some thoughts worth pondering. I do not believe there is such a thing as bad knowledge. What Sparrow has shown IS knowledge because there is no disputing what he has found. We only need to decide whether it is useful or pertinent to a solve.
    GK

  20. Sparrow,
    How did you find this word if you didn’t know it was a word to begin with?
    Just curious..
    I am wondering where this is actually leading to, some place on a map I hope..

    • Eagle——

      I noticed the “ism” at first. As I checked up wards the only thing that seemed to connect to it was “Daen”. I found “Daen” to be interesting as “ae” is often found in Greek words. I thought “Daenism”? What the heck could that get? So I googled it—- and there it was. I was very surprised. Honestly.

  21. I appreciate your efforts. I don’t know if you are correct or not. Far be it for me to judge. Bottom line no one has found the treasure.
    I will agree that there has to be an explanation of the use of the particular words chosen. One doesn’t use the word blaze for example in everyday conversation. And I believe these words are there for more than rhyme. I am just not smart enough to figure it out. I do think it wise to leave the poem alone for months then come back with a new focus. I am too busy on the old farm except in winter. I will take it up again then.

  22. Mosby-
    Thanks. I wish I were more intelligent too. I “see” things but unfortunately can not discern how to link them together. I’m more of a farmer at heart too. I like to throw seeds in the ground, provide the water, and let God do the rest. 🙂

  23. That Daenism word sent me down a rabbit hole. So, I looked up zbuddhist retreats in New Mexico. There are a few in the mountains north of Santa Fe. One big place is just south of Taos called the Mountain Hermitage. A beautiful place. But I had previously dismissed it because of the location close to Taos city roads. Though it did cross my mind to look at the area due to some other rabbit hole. Now I noticed something that has made me snap. The Hermitage is 6.5 miles from Pot Creek on the high road to Taos. Not far, but too far to walk.
    The rabbit hole is that I need a place where he might learn enough about Daenism to spend 15 years working it into the poem. And I needed a place in the mountains where he might pursue his interest in archaeology. An interest that has existed for decades. Pot Creek is more than interesting, and it is right there. It can be done within an afternoon from Santa Fe.
    We have combed through this area before.
    Is it worth another look? Or is it a rabbit hole?

  24. Michael—
    Appreciate your looking into Daenism. The thing about it is that it is not a REAL philosophy but the philosophy in a created world SIMILAR to REAL teachings. This intrigues me.

    But I wondered if you checked my link on SB #204? Forrest mentions Wheaties twice, which is The breakfast of Champions. ChAmpion Mine is at 7500 feet at Taos. If YOU are searching New Mexico you may want to check that location out also.
    Happy searching!

  25. Hi Sparrow! I need to catch up with all you posted. I have always liked that you looked at the poem differently. I look at it differently than most as well. Hope all is well with you. Please give my regards to the queen if you have tea with her anytime soon!

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