Home of Brown…

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This is for a discussion about “the home of Brown” in Forrest’s poem.

Got an HOB that didn’t work out…or maybe you need an HOB for a certain area…or perhaps you have an idea that needs some fleshing out..

This is the place to discuss all things HOB…

dal…

393 thoughts on “Home of Brown…

  1. Let’s keep on the topic of the Home of Brown on this page. Use other, more appropriate pages for other discussion topics.

    • I’m not saying I know where the treasure is but I think I might be able to help someone find it if they can locate the first clue. I think they keys to solving the poem is solving the man who wrote it and discovering his first clue. Mr Fenn is a man from the old times of simple times. The first two clues seam to be straight forward. You find where the warm waters halt, there then should be a canyon down stream within a few minutes or short hike. Home of brown is most likely a spectacular spot to fly fish on the point of a river. Mr Fenn is a lifetime avid fisherman and it’s been a huge part of his life so there’s no way he would leave it out of his life’s work as this poem is. I’ve fished all over this country on all different types of fishing gear. In the Rockies, brown trout love deep pools to gather, but the great spots are deep pools that are at the bottom of small falls. They sit in these pools to catch small bugs and smaller fish that come into the pools and get disorientated and they pick the bugs and smaller fish off. But the important thing in my eyes is not the home of brown part but the “put in below” part. My father and his friends were and are the same age as Mr Fenn and when we would come back from fishing in the back woods they would always ask me and my brothers “where did you put in at”? Meaning a few different things. Put in could be where we started casting at, or started wading into the water at but in this reference I believe Mr Fenn is referencing a place he crossed the river at. Typically at the bottom of deep pools the water goes shallow which are the best places for fisherman to cross. Anyone who’s fished in the Rockies know to get to the best spots you have to cross the rivers at shallow spots several times. And Mr Fenn references this also at the end of his poem by saying “you’re effort will be worth the cold”. Anyone who has fished the Rockies knows the waters are typically cold because most rivers are caused by glacier runoff. Just a few of my thoughts. Could be wrong but maybe it will help someone who is close. I have a few other ideas on the rest of the poem. If interested write me back.

      • Rocky Mountain Brown Water and the Wild History of Fluoride

        Some of the greatest scientific discoveries occurred by accident. From falling apples, to sandwiches that don’t mold, some of our greatest achievements began as simple analysis of the natural surroundings. Fluoride, one of dentistry’s most powerful tools in the fight against cavities, also has a similar origin story.

        The Colorado Brown Stain

        • There is a warm spring associated with the Brown Stain. Just happens to be where they piped the water from and where they piped it to. No special knowledge here. A good map and a little imagination can get you there, although some knowledge of geography will help and a little bit about borders. Yep, borders. Remember getting back in the box, all borders are not as they appear today!

      • Hi Cody,
        Do you think WWWH is where a warm waters river joints a cold waters river or maybe where a warm waters river suddently becomes a cold waters river because of the NM fishing regulations boundaries?
        Do you live in NM?

        • I do t think it has much to do with the temp of the water. My feeling is it has to do with the flow of the water. Halt doesn’t mean to permanently stop it means to temporarily stop than release. I think WWH is a reference to the name of the river and shortly past where a road crosses the river, the river slows or runs into a deep pool then flows down a canyon. Fenn said you can locate the treasure with a good map, his book, the poem and common sense. I’m positive you can locate the starting point by finding the river and canyon on a map. The only way you would know where to look is if the river has a name with a thermal reference in it.

        • I actually live in Chicago but I’m from Wyoming and go out there a few times a year fishing

    • In Fenn’s TTOTC, page 62, he mentions a horse named Lightning (with a capital letter). Could HOB be the home of a horse named Brown?

      • Gantu – Could be! But then what sort of place could be considered a horse’s home? Since wild horses roam all over the open land, I would think only a domesticated horse would have a home small enough to use as a waypoint in a treasure hunt. So that could maybe be a ranch, a barn, a stable, a corral, or possibly even a hitching post. But those are all man-made structures too, which may or may not be a deal-breaker.

    • I believe Mount Sheridan may be the home of Brown.
      The Washburn, Langford and Diane expedition of 1870 named it Brown Mountain and the name was later changed in honor of General Sheridan.

      • If I had the ability to go back one day I would not be sharing.
        When you go don’t go alone and be physically ready. It is too far to walk meaning it is ALSO fa r to walk. I don’t believe he walked either. I believe he did it the same way he has always done that trip. On a trail horse.
        I want Fenn to have the opportunity to give the naysayers the finger.
        And I want to prove to my naysayers that I was right.
        Drawing nigh means to the left of North.

        • Btw
          I tried to share this with Dal ONLY.
          He wasn’t having it. Put it on the blog for ALL TOO SEE.
          Go with him. If I’m right he earned it and I don’t believe anyone can tell the story.

        • Hi Ray: there are a couple problems with your trail horse idea. The first is that Forrest likes to blaze his own trail, not follow man made trails used by hundreds of others. But the second, more problematic issue is that if he took a horse, then there would be no need for two trips from his car (and the extra risk that entails).

          • Ray, I’m sure you’re just being sarcastic. If you’re putting ideas out on a public blog, I assume (perhaps incorrectly?) you’re interested in constructive feedback. You’re obviously aware that Forrest made two round trips from his sedan to where he hid the treasure, so I was just pointing out the obvious conundrum: that with a horse, there would be no weight issue. I know you know this, so you must have come up with an explanation that was acceptable to you. I was just curious what that might be, that’s all.

          • And just how much weight can a trail horse carry?
            And being a respectful hiker means treading lightly. Stick to existing paths for your safety and the safety of the fauna.

          • Hi Ray: okay, so you do have a reason that is acceptable to you. Fair enough. You’ve probably seen this MW Q&A before, but just in case not, I’ll share it since it’s relevant to the conversation — specifically Forrest’s final paragraph.

            MW Q&A (6/28/2014): “Your words and actions say you are a friend and lover of the environment ‘more than most.’ Do you follow Leave No Trace and did you while hiding the chest? Ie stay on established trails. ~Buddy”

            FF: “Buddy, I think you’re trying to get me in trouble but that’s where I am most of the time anyway, so I’ll answer your questions.

            “You may as well ask me if I love the air. I don’t know but, I certainly am an appreciator of nature. ‘Leave no trace’ is a rhetorical statement not intended to be taken literally. For instance it is not feasible for you to not leave a footprint somewhere or a dry fly snagged high on a tree limb, left by your back cast. But I agree with the philosophy of the phrase. I dislike seeing beer cans scattered around when I am fantasizing that I am the only person who has ever been in that spot.

            “Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one. However, it reminds me of the worn-out axiom, ‘If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes.’ When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f”

            Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    • How can someone “put in below” lander? Lander is a pretty large town in Wyoming terms.

      • Cody—
        The Fort currently known as Washakie was once called Fort Brown. It was moved from below Landers north to it’s current location. This may be what pix is referring to.

        • Sorry. To correct: Fort Brown was at Lander and was moved north when renamed Washakie. So to “put in below the home of Brown” could refer to Lander

        • I think FF is being very specific on his directions except for the first two clues. Lander Wyoming is a very vague clue. Lander does have a river running through the center of its town but it’s heavily populated and it’s close to 25 miles till you get to non private property outside of Lander. FF is a antiquities dealer, so there’s no way he places the treasure on private property. Lander would be a to obvious choice especially since he has family there but he’s not walking through the town doing this. If Lander is HOB then that would mean WWWH and the canyon below is before lander. FF wouldn’t be taking this strike through a populated area. He said it was away from trails and roads. Do t think lander fits.

      • Maybe below is in terms of altitude so you put in somewhere down a canyon outside of the city?

        • Maybe below is in terms of altitude so you put in somewhere down a canyon outside of the city? Also if FF put in below the home of Brown he could be several miles away from Lander. Also Brown is capitalized and so are names of Cities.

          • I remember seeing a suggestion that Brown was capitalized to suggest that hoB is a place with a (capitalized) name, rather than simply something visible
            such as a cliff or boulder. But I always thought that
            suggestion was weak. I still do. Good luck to all searchers. As always, IMO.

        • That’s good, Hunt Field. Reminds me of “treasure hunt”.

          I thought of Hunt’s ketchup, imagining the way it looks while flowing, and have already found a place called “Discovery Bay”, near Mount Diablo.

          Goggles

          should not compromise one’s tight focus.

          All IMO

        • Lisa to “put in” is a old fly fishing term used to describe where you started casting your fly, or started wading into the water or crosses the river. Home of brown is going to be something specific to the part on the river. It’s something you won’t find on a map. The only clues you will find on a map is where warm waters halt and the canyon.

          • Cody,
            As I posted on dals 7 years ago.
            “Put in” is also a aviation term. I have several pilots who confirmed this. It’s also more used in boating lingo.

    • This whole discussion is a bit interesting. I recently saw an analysis of the area related to a specific date in question regarding when the chest was possibly hidden. Landers is certainly a point of interest for reasons not discussed here.

      There has been much debate on what “put in” means. I have suggested before that since the line is a stand alone sentence, the words put in refer to the home of Brown and not to the chest. By this I mean to suggest that either the home of Brown is “put in” below where you ay be standing when identifying it, or, as mentioned here, put in could refer to elevation or the southern direction.

      I like Lisa’s suggestion that it may refer to landing a plane at Hunt Field. I noticed the irony in that name when GEing the area for other reasons. Those other reasons involved a plane trip FF took though, landing in Landers. So there may be something to Lisa’s interpretation.

      “Put in” has also been suggested to mean a nautical place to launch boats. Again, since FF was a pilot and not a boatman, Lisa’s suggestion may not be far off.

      As for not traversing through populated areas, nothing about the chase suggests that that is not a possibility. I imagine most believe FF drove for some portion of the journey. Driving past an HOB that happens to be topologically below a WWWH is not beyond the realm of possibilities. It all depends on a persons take on the clues. The question you should ask yourself then is, is this what FF meant/means? All IMO.

      -Ann

      • I understand there could be various meanings to “put in” but when put in conjunction with what fenn has said and the other clues the only logical explanation would be to get into the water most likely crossing the river or water source. For example we know fenn said he got out of his car and walked to the location where he placed the chest. It took him two trips. So if he started walking at where warm waters halted, then took it to the canyon below, we are pretty certain he didn’t get into a plane and put in below the home of brown. He walked and put into the home of brown. I can’t imagine fenn walking down a river into a canyon to get to a plane stashed in a canyon. Remember the story and patter he took has to be taken with the totality of the circumstances. Fenn was taking this chest initially to the spot where he wanted to die. And as weak dying man, his hike couldn’t have taken him too far. You have to imagine yourself in his shoes. You’re s dying You park your vehicle by the side of a road, probably a dirt road that crosses over a river. You get out walk along the river for a short time, go down a canyon. Not a huge canyon because he’s old, so the terrain can’t be too crazy. But also remember Fenn is familiar with the walk and he’s a tough old guy so the walk could be kinda of rough. You must know find what he refers to Home of brown and cross just below it. So you’re looking for something distinguishable to Fenn. I personally thing it’s a deep fishing pool. Just under most deep fishing pools the waters become shallow, a perfect spot for a person to cross or “put in at”. You might be crossing at another inlet to a shallow stream or dry river bed. From the crossing you can only imagine he walked a bit further into the wilderness found his spot, which I believe would be under a special tree that has a man made mark on it. Probably not made by him but loggers or old trappers many years ago. So the mark or blaze will be high on the tree, 20-30-40 feet high. And at the base of the tree you will find his chest. A old dying man, as I’ve seen many many times in my career will lean up against to rest and never get up again. But this spot fenn chose will most likely be on the south side or south easy side of the river or water which would enable him to watch the sunset.

        • Cody lettere – I agree with your assessment. That ‘put in’ in the Poem refers to a fly fishing term. Maybe, as in the preface of TFTW, Forrest ‘put in’ with his dingy attached to the belt of his waders, just upstream and across the Madison River from a HUGE Brown trout on my topo map?:

          https://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=44.6623&lon=-111.0361&z=14

          Look! There’s the easy road access to Barns Hole #1, one of Forrest’s favorite fishing holes. And I believe Forrest could see that unmistakable Brown trout-shaped landform, while taking off or landing at KWYS airport. Or, at the very least, it is noticeable on any topo map. Didn’t Forrest say to marry the clues in the Poem to a map?

          • Cody lettere – And my final, rectangular ‘continue straight’ old trail marker blaze on my at least 30 ft tall Ponderosa pine tree at my hidey spot is only about 8 feet from the ground. But it’s there.

          • If the spot on the Madison river is in Yellowstone Park you can cross it off. Cross out any national parks, national monuments or private property. Remember Fenn is a art and antiquities dealer. He knows that if anyone finds anything in a National Park, National Monument or private property a search can’t claim it without a mountain of legal issues. Focus on national forests, or BLM land. Fenn has a horrible experience with the FBI when he and his business partners were arrested for taking artifacts off of land they said he couldn’t. Two of Fenn’s business partners killed them selves because of these accusations. So I don’t think he would do that to people. As far as TFTW reference, my guess would be where ever he stopped to cross the river was due to him getting tired or the terrain was to tough for him to walk any further.

          • This looks promising but I doubt he used a small dingy or raft. If he had to use a dingy or raft to get to the spot or down the river he would have to walk back. If he can walk back there’s no need for a dingy. I’m just trying to work it out logically. Just assume he walked the trip since he has already made it clear he walked and it took him two trips. So where ever you start searching try to put your self in his shoes. Find a spot on the road to pull off. Make sure there are no hiking trails or structures around. There should be a water source with some thermal reference to the name. There should be a canyon associated with the area in which you must walk or travel through. From there you shouldn’t have to walk or travel more than 2-3 miles each way. HOB is something specific to the area. You must cross the water source or get into it at some point. Remember “your effort will be worth the cold” if you cross the water. Also you shouldn’t have to look very hard for the chest when you have located the “blaze” meaning it’s above ground or visible. Probably at the base of this tree. Fenn said in a interview, if he ever got sick again he would go back and die slumped over the chest.

          • Simplify – simplify – simplify.

            Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down
            Not far, but too far to walk.
            Put in below the home of brown.

            To me, Simple instructions.

            Start at a place “where warm waters halt >>>
            Go a certain distance down a canyon >>>
            How far? – “Not far, but too far to walk” >>>
            This MAY be an indicator to drive instead of walking.
            “Put in below the home of Brown.”

            If I am driving, I will see something that can be considered the “home of Brown.” Once I see it,
            I am instructed to “put in” somewhere. So, again – If I am driving – Find a parking spot somewhere below this thing or place that relates to “the home of Brow,.”

            The next line – “From there it’s no place for the meek…” helps triangulate where to park – IMO.
            “From there” From this place that is below the hoB and the next place – (no place for the meek) – is where I should park, (if one is available – or somewhere close.) and start your BotG search.

            “The end is ever drawing nigh…” From this parking spot, (Or the parking spot that is just up the road) I am getting closer >>> “There’ll be no paddle up your creek…” >>> This parking spot – the place where I begin my BotG search will be very near a creek.

            Step – by – step set of instructions that MUST be followed (exactly) in order to get to where you need to be.

            I have driven from WWWsH – down the road, past something that could be a hoB – near a place that is “No place for the meek” to a parking spot that is near a creek. Park, get out, start my BotG search.

            Simplify – simplify – simplify – Or so I believe – 🙂 JDA

          • Cody lettere – My search area at Baker’S Hole is under the purview of the Hebgen Lake Ranger District. The YNP border runs down the middle of my backwardS bike ‘S’ blaSe/blaZe, just like a giant dollar sign: $.

            It is most easily accessible from the shoreline by a shallower stretch, right on that YNP border, via fly fishing wading boots. That Ponderosa pine is on one side of a grassy clearing, which you can only see after going into a seemingly impenetrable thicket of red willows, which hides a puddled forest fen. Any questions??

          • JDA and Cody lettere – James Collier and I agree on what TFTW is in the Poem:

            NFBTFTW: The 10 river miles where he put the rubber dinghy into the Madison River and fished “downstream” towards Baker’s Hole.

            Craig Matthews said it is 8 river miles from the Barns Holes to Baker’s Hole in his fly fishing book about the Madison River.

            My ‘canyon down’ TFTW drive, to my proposed Forrest put in at the pull out at Cable Car Run, is about 10.3 road miles down along the Madison River from my WWWH at Madison Junction. That would be almost exactly the river distance Forrest said was TFTW in the book preface.

          • But Lisa: what would have happened if Forrest passed before he wrote TFTW? You would know nothing about that 10-mile Madison float. And aren’t you concerned that late last year Forrest actually directed journalists to the very area you are focused on?

          • Zap – I didn’t need the preface of TFTW to find or confirm my hidey spot. And, no, it doesn’t bother me that Forrest sent that journalist to that area fairly recently. Could a place Forrest feels an umbilical connection to also be a place he enjoys sending a journalist to experience swimming and fly fishing in August of 2019? Could many people have been 200 feet away from my hidey spot, across the Madison River, while standing at that suspicious interpretive sign on the shoreline at Baker’s Hole Campground? And didn’t Forrest also recommend Baker’s Hole Campground on a Places to Stay thread, here on HOD?

            Methinks, Yes. It might just make Forrest giggle to point to the vicinity of the bronze chest, IMO.

            Just for the time line’s sake, please read this September 2013 post by Dal about Forrest’s TFTW book:

            https://dalneitzel.com/2013/08/31/new-book-review/

          • I think JDA might be on to something. LOL

            “How hard was it to write the poem and not give the location away?
            It was not hard at all. I just had to stay focused.”

            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search…”

            “I’ve said many times that everything about my poem and my book is straightforward,”

            “But the poem is straight forward. Ah, if you can figure out the clues, they’re, the… ah, there is nothing in that poem that I, that will make you think I am trying to fool you. I have never discouraged anybody from looking anyplace or led them toward it, and I never will. There is no tomfoolery in that poem, it’s straightforward.”

            “I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone. ”

            I wonder how many more times he needs to tell us before we start listening.

            – Lori

          • Hi Lisa: I just think that if “10 miles” was indeed the answer to “Not far, but too far to walk,” then Forrest revealing that in TFTW would be basically admitting defeat: that his poem was too hard to solve beyond the first two clues, and he was just going to hand everyone the answer to the third clue (for those who believe NF, BTFTW is a clue — I realize many do not). Does that really seem like something Forrest would do? Why hand out answers if he is convinced the poem is solvable and doesn’t care if it isn’t solved for a thousand years?

            You claim you didn’t need the preface of TFTW to pick that location. Can I ask how you settled on your very specific spot in the absence of an answer to NF, BTFTW? Perhaps you don’t believe that line is a clue — that the third clue is “Put in below the home of Brown,” and you chose Baker’s Hole based on historical information.

            As far as vectoring journalists to the spot, I tend to side with Toby Younis on this — that the last place he’d send them is within spitting distance of the treasure. That would be kind of a slap in the face, IMO, to all the searchers who have toiled for years on the poem. I don’t deny that there could be a mischief angle in Forrest’s “strategery,” but this seems a bit over-the-top to me.

          • Zap – The ‘S’-curve in the Madison River at Baker’S Hole is what originally caught my eye, after discussing with another searcher that story about the grizzlies crossing the Madison River tributaries there, to get to the old garbage dump (where KWYS airport runway is now). You can read up and down from this comment to get the whole timing/backstory:

            https://dalneitzel.com/2019/04/15/scrapbook-one-hundred-ninety-nine/#comment-760951

            And if you can spit the almost 200′ from that interpretive sign, across the 100′ wide expanse of the Madison River, which I crossed in wading boots in late May of 2019,…projecting that lugie all the way out to my hidey spot (which can’t be seen from the Baker’s Hole shoreline), then you win the spitting contest. Hands down! Is the bronze chest still out there, hidden right under our very noses??

          • Hi Lori;

            Thanks for all of the quotes that seem to support my interpretation. Good hunting in the spring – JDA

          • Aaron – Exhaustion and starvation. I explained all that, here on a post I did on HOD, back in June of 2019, I think. Just tried to find it using Google Search, but couldn’t. Oh, and the high water table on that Memorial Day Weekend in 2019.

          • Hi Lisa: I get that you were attracted to the “S” shape of the Madison at that location, but the terrain is pretty flat there so the river understandably meanders. To the south of Baker’s Hole there are a dozen more S’s (as well as a few more to its north), and then a few more still (at various scales) continuing back upstream to the east all the way to Madison Junction. So it seems to me something other than the mirror-S shape had to attract you to that *particular* S over all the others. Was it because it’s a named and famous trout fishing spot?

          • Zap – When I found a pic of that suspicious interpretive sign, mentioned in a post by another searcher, and then read the ‘home of Brown’-related text (about how Brown trout spawn there seasonally, coming up from their home of Hebgen Lake), I was intrigued. Yes.

            And that’s when I directed my fly fishing librarian friend to investigate, during her car trip to the West Yellowstone area and Baker’s Hole Campground in April of 2019. The roads were still covered with snow on that trip.

          • Zap – And because the YNP boundary line bisects that particular ‘S’-curve in the Madison River, turning my topo map blaze into a perfect $. Only backwards.

            Show me the money, Forrest! I laughed when I discovered it.

          • Lisa: I *do* like the dollar sign aspect of it — that, to me, seems very “Fenny.” But I’d still want a strong, contiguous, sequential set of clues to put me there unambiguously with confidence. You are obviously satisfied with your clue sequence, so that’s what’s important.

          • Thanks Lori!!! Heed the quotes Lori has provided!

            I believe the Madison River has ben ruled out as a place FF never returned. Can someone confirm one way or another. Or was that the Missouri River? I know there is at least one such spot other than the recent one noted about the canyon in YNP.

            Cody,

            You put too much emphasis on FF’s fishing connection. Someone unfamiliar with FF and the poem alone ought to be able to find the chest as well. So it is unlikely that Brown refers to trout or put in refers to a boat launch. Line 8 is a stand alone sentence and it’s meaning is not so clear cut.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

        • JDA – Yes. It brings to mind Goldilocks and the 3 bears. The first bed is too soft, the third bed is too hard, but the MIDDLE bed is just right! IMO. Forrest liked being “in the Middle.” 🙂

      • Cody,

        There is a theory that FF hid the chest in 2002-2003 and that he indeed took his car from his house to the airport and flew to an area where he rented a car to take him the rest of the way to hide the chest. No one is suggesting he hid a plane in a canyon.

        -Ann

    • Jake…does that statement bring us back around to the idea that we will find WWWH and HOB closely associated / within very close proximaty to one another….perhaps both even considered one and the same associated feature?? I can see it as a possibility. In my mind, the riddle is “not far but too far to walk”. Thanks for the quote.

      • I don’t think WWWH and HOB are within a mile or 2 of each other.
        The one word that links things or places close together (in the poem) is “and”.
        Notice in the poem where “and” is and it seems as though he wants those things together and we don’t have “and” in the lines before or after PIBTHOB although we have “And take it in the canyon down” but I think that line relates WWWH and take it the canyon down.

        Not far, but too far to walk separates PIBTHOB from ATIITCD and we must know what distances Fenn could not walk when he wrote that line in the poem NF,BTFTW in order to get the distance right on how far we travel down the canyon to get to “Put in” place below HOB.

        You begin at WWWH which is not in a canyon because you have to “take it *IN* the canyon down” which means your *OUT* of the canyon at WWWH. (All the canyons I see labeled on a map are not small, they are many miles long) You then go down the canyon (in elevation) by not walking until you find the “Put in” place below HOB but Fenn doesn’t tell us how far below HOB to “Put in”.

        Say HOB is a couple miles wide? On which side of HOB do you “Put in” below and how far? I would say HOB must be much smaller in size where there is no question where below is and where to “Put in”.

        I think the most important detail is where you “Put in” but Fenns directions are so vague and having Brown capitalized draws all sorts of attention to thinking this is the most important word in the poem but that was part of his plan and may be the least important word in the 9 clues.

        Bottom line is I think it’s more important where you draw out and not “Put in” if they are nautical terms.

        This is just my brain waves.

        • Jake – I see your brain waves and I’m waving right back. I was chatting with another searcher the other day and we explored the idea of WWWH = HOB. High Desert Drifter had mentioned the concept a week or so ago and I know the topic has come up more than once in the past. I can’t reconcile the thought easily but am open to ideas. Thank you for yours!

          Another thought is that the distance between WWWH and HOB might be the “distance” Forrest recently described in a SB when he was using his hand to make a measurement. Turn those inches into miles…like a map (1″ = 1mile)???

          • I think it would be a waste of one of these clues if WWWH = HOB.
            The clues may be related in some way but as far as one clue equalling the other just doesn’t make any sense unless one of them is a “useless clue” which could be a possibility and you could still find the chest.

            Brown seems like a magnet to all ferrous materials.
            It wouldn’t surprise me at all if HOB or Brown only exists in Fenns mind.

          • I wouldn’t see it as a waste of a clue if wwwh= hoB.

            Wouldn’t one move with confidence more if the all important first clue was named in the poem?

      • a color a head stone a fish a wish ive ran across the headstone but not sure if i will ever make it back there a place ive been to as defined but the real place is like a image in the mirror you see it but is it real the image that is good luck to all on this one be safe out there wait a week or two for snow melt to be safe not sorry

      • I do believe both WWWH and HoB are intermingled with the same feature. I also believe that the only possible way to find the correct hoB is to first learn where the correct WWWH is.

  2. Imo – HOB is will work as a state or a city.
    Just depends which direction you are going.

    And then once you get to the correct location – there is still another HOB.

  3. Do you think it would be good or bad for a potential solution to have triplicate explanations? For example, if my home of Brown has a mountain, an actual brown home, and another reason it could be the home of Brown, say a person or famous animal.

    The other problem with one current idea I’m working is that if you asked why it’s wwwh I would say “These three reasons.”

    I can’t tell if multiple meanings for important clues is bad for this solve or if it’s supposed to instill some sort of confidence. Is multiple explanations elegant or convoluted? I’ve never had this sort of problem arise in any previous attempts toward a simple and elegant solution.

    • I think it would be a good thing to have multiple reasons pointing to that clue. Maybe the one that you think is important is not what FF intended, but the other one is. I personally am looking at it that I need three indicators from 3 different sources, (the poem, the map, the book, the Cheat Sheet, interview quote, etc.)

  4. Hello Everyone,

    I guess I should explore this entire website a bit more. I’ve only been posting in Key Word!

    That said, I just posted my thoughts on line 8 of the poem, which obviously fits this discussion. I am reposting those remarks here for food for thought:

    In regards to line 8 of the poem it should be noted that the line is a stand alone sentence. When I initially started playing with the arrangement of the prepositional phrases in the poem I ran across some “hiccups” with lines 7 and 8. But, as I mentioned to Lori, I had overlooked something. That something was the fact that line 8 is a stand alone sentence. That said, my prepositional phrase approach could render line 8 to read:

    The home of Brown put in below.

    And this may make sense to some but to be sure, the question for everyone seems to have been where was the treasure put in below the home of Brown? And obviously, where or what is the home of Brown. But, if line 8 “Put in below the home of Brown.” is taken to mean “The home of Brown put in below.” (Which the rules of prepositional phrases allow.) then that line may become a bit more clear. Instead of “Where is the home of Brown the treasure is put in below?”, searchers can ask themselves “Where is the home of Brown put in below?”

    If this still doesn’t make any sense, consider lines 5-7 where most of the words seem to be descriptive. In this new rendering of line 8, the home of Brown would be placed in the canyon of line 6 down below wherever it is the rest of the stanza has you situated. Line 8 is more informational in this instance than directive. As if FF was saying “BTW, the home of Brown is in the canyon down below.”

    -Ann

    • Follow up repost:

      In the context of the analysis described above, and for disclaimer purposes (IMO), a solution to the rendering of line 8, read as “The home of Brown put in below.” (To quote myself.), could be Miss Molly Brown. My previous post was more informative but this will suffice here.

      -Ann

        • me,

          Put in the home of Brown below doesn’t quite keep the proposition intact but it certainly would be among the rearrangement possibilities. However, as others have pointed out elsewhere, the chest was not placed inside of a dwelling. So your rendition seems to be ruled out by that.

          -Ann

  5. If it were a couple hundred years or so in the future and you knew nothing about the chase and found the book TTOTC and read it. And that is all you know wouldn’t it make since that when you got to the poem the first thing that would come to mind when you read the line put in below the home of Brown, is that Brown is or was a person. That’s what I see if I nothing else. If all I had to go on was the poem the one thing that would stand out would be the word Brown. My quest would be to figure out who Brown was.

    • I totally agree; that was my thought exactly.
      At first, I thought New Mexico = adobe abode. The guy was 80, it must be close to his home so he could keep an eye on it. Then I bought TTOTC and read that he was a highly skilled pilot…
      Then I thought, Yellowstone, Wyoming/Montana…
      Who is Brown?
      That guy “Google” knows everything! Who Brown was, what he did, where he lived, etc.

    • I think you would be wiser (and not Bud) to find WWWH before trying to find out who, what or where HOB or Brown is.
      No matter how many hundreds or thousands of years in the future.

        • Ann: the # of potential Browns (or homes of Brown) relative to the potential # of WWWHs is irrelevant if the former cannot be solved prior to the latter.

          Forrest Gets Mail from a Middle Class School (2/8/2017): Q: “Our final guess is that the treasure may be along road 156 in Wyoming. Thank you for taking time out of your day to help us in our class!” Forrest’s reply: “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order.”

          And back even earlier, but more specific to home of Brown:

          Dal’s response to Clayton on April 13, 2014, link: http://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/08/where_warm_waters_halt/#comment-35874

          “Forrest said: You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.’ He said this because many searchers were skipping directly to home of Brown. That is the point at which many folks were starting. ..because (I suppose) it is easier. He was trying to get them to think about the first clues rather than the middle… Forrest said, ‘You’ll never find it that way. You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.’ And then I believe he went on to say that the clues are consecutive and we need to figure them out in the order they are, in the poem…”

          • Zephod,

            I never said figuring out Brown first would lead to the chest. Even assuming a correct guess for Brown, one would still need to start the Chase at clue one in order to arrive at purported answer for Brown. Clearly, WWWH has to lead to HOB. But, since there are less HOB’s, statistically it is simpler to try and identify HOB than WWWH. You ae not wrong in your point. FF does not, however, rule out that HOB may be identified prior to starting at WWWH. It is possible HOB is needed to figure out WWWH just as FF has said you need all of the words. In the case of Molly Brown, it would obviously be required to find a WWWH, if one even exists. If not, then Molly Brown may not be a likely solution. I gave Molly Brown as an example of a fit to the analysis employed, not as an emphatic solve. Thus, I asked for feedback concerning the proposal.

            -Ann

          • Zaphod – Couldn’t one look for WWWH, the canyon down, AND home of Brown all at the same time without breaking them apart? I feel like those three particular clues (if they are indeed 3 separate clues) can only compliment one another when trying to marry the poem up to a location on a map.

            It wouldn’t necessarily be skipping ahead in the poem; just considering a larger chunk of the poem (that might include multiple clues) together as a starting point, rather than WWWH all by its lonesome.

          • Zephod,

            As a PS, this form of sorting out the knit and grit is precisely what will likely lead someone to a correct resolution. So I thank you for the exchanges.

            -Ann

          • Blex,

            Good points. While there may be distinct clues on how to get from A-B, they are all part of the overall Chase and therefore related. Whether one follows or flows into the next or they work in conjunction with one another, they really are not likely “solvable” in the grand scheme of things on an individual basis. The only reason a “solve” for WWWH would prove fruitful is if there was also a HOB associated with it, and a canyon and all the other clues mentioned in the poem. To say that figuring out WWWH will inevitably lead to the rest of the clues falling in place is unrealistic. That would be akin to saying that because you have the corners of the puzzle in place, all the other pieces with fall in line. Realistically, each piece has it’s place and yet they all go together to complete the picture. Just some thoughts.

            -Ann

          • Blex,

            That hold some merit as the clue being different and still possibly not separate.

            Begin it where WWsH [ say a lake ] and the lake waters take in in the CD by way of gravity. Not far, may indicate a straight line from one side to another by water, or too far too walk means around the lake on the shorter down side, which could indicate down as south for that reason.
            A searcher would {put in} below the lake and in this case [the lake] would be the hoB.
            Approx. 4 clues talking about one place made up from those four clues. With all the clue’s references making a whole, of a single location, of the first four clues.

            And I’m back to; how many clues produce an answer?

            Many like to believe hoB can be found and they just go to it,,, ok,,, but WhatIF all the clues are part of WWsH, including hoB as the lake-?-where something lives, In this scenario.

            As you may have implied… those clues don’t need to be broken down individually. They might be parts of a whole… leading to a single conclusion; WWsH is hoB, and the CD is the drainage of the lake in a down manner… possibly being gravity/ elevation in a southward direct.

            Plausible…

          • Blex,

            I like the note about down possibly meaning a southern directopn. That is certainly a possibility. Which if the HOB is in the canyon and the canyon is south of where I am standing then WWWH would be somewhere north of HOB. Interesting……

            -Ann

          • Ann O’Nymous – I have had some past solves where “down” applied to both lower in elevation AND south at the same time. I don’t know if that’s necessary for solving the poem, but it does make it simpler when one thing can apply positively to multiple interpretations at once.

          • Blex,

            Agreed. I just hadn’t thought of down in that sense of the word before. Thus the thanks. I’ve only been aware of any of this for a little over 48 hours now. I’ve been chomping away at the structure and words of the poem. So every little bit helps.

            -Ann

          • Seeker – That line of thinking is pretty much why I’ve never put forth much effort into identifying EXACTLY what the nine clues are and making myself a numbered list to which I can mentally lock myself into. I’m more concerned with marrying the poem up to a location. which I feel is the prize I should keep my eye on. Once I find the treasure, I can spend my early retirement nailing down what the nine clues were exactly! 😉

            It’s interesting; when I started trying to figure this poem out I dismissed the idea of people who were looking for a home of Brown before WWWH as a starting point. But this past summer, the solve I was chasing after happened to begin with me finding an interesting home of Brown, and then going backwards to find a reasonably decent WWWH to give me confidence for a BOTG trip. I’ll freely admit that it turned out to not be a very good solve in the end, but it seemed plausible at the time. I’m putting the finishing touches on my write-up presently and will be sending to dal in the near future for posting up on this blog, so stay tuned for that!

          • Hi Blex: “Couldn’t one look for WWWH, the canyon down, AND home of Brown all at the same time without breaking them apart?”

            I don’t see a problem with that, unless it causes a searcher to over-focus on Brown, or overweight it, at the expense of WWWH. In my opinion, “home of Brown” in isolation is unsolvable, whereas WWWH in isolation from hoB and even “canyon down” is not.

            Since, IMO, hoB is neither the 2nd clue nor the 3rd, nor even all of the 4th, I think it’s getting too far ahead of oneself to be bothering with it until WWWH has been confidently nailed down. Clearly this can be achieved — and in fact, if the early two clue solvers are any indication, “home of Brown” was of absolutely no use to them in figuring out WWWH since that clearly did not yield a 3rd or 4th clue solution.

            However, I think it’s very smart to take advantage of Forrest’s admission that the clues are contiguous, and to therefore focus on WWWH *and* canyon down simultaneously. I just fear going beyond these two is only going to muddy the waters.

          • Hi Ann: we have the advantage of knowing that the earliest searchers who solved the first two clues did so without correctly solving “Put in below the home of Brown.” My only caveat here is that I’ve assumed that “Put in below the home of Brown” is NOT the 2nd clue. (I can make a strong argument for this being true, but no one but Forrest knows if it IS true.)

            “Clearly, WWWH has to lead to HOB.”

            Eventually, perhaps, but certainly not immediately or obviously. Searchers were collectively stuck at having solved only two clues by Sept. 2012, and remained that way through all of 2013 and 2014. Even by November 2015, the only reported extra progress by Forrest was that “Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”

            “But, since there are less HOB’s, statistically it is simpler to try and identify HOB than WWWH.”

            That’s an interesting assumption on your part. What do you base it on? Playing Devil’s Advocate, I think I could come up with at least as many if not more candidates for “home of Brown” than for WWWH. But you have plenty of company: people convince themselves that it might be easier to tackle hoB first and then backtrack to WWWH. Trouble is, nobody successfully did so in the first 5 years of the Chase. I think some searchers are just overly attracted to that capital B, and ignore Forrest’s opinion that they’ll never solve the clues by starting somewhere in the middle of the poem.

            “FF does not, however, rule out that HOB may be identified prior to starting at WWWH.”

            Yet nor does he ever suggest it could be.

            “It is possible HOB is needed to figure out WWWH…”

            Unfortunately, that possibility is refuted based on Forrest’s timeline of the quantity of clues solved. ~Can~ it be done that way? Perhaps. “Had” it ever been done successfully that way by mid 2015? Not to Forrest’s knowledge. But it’s clear that solving “home of Brown” is not a requirement for solving WWWH.

          • Zephod,

            Your replies are marvelous and well heeded. I would only make the following counter, no one has ever solved te Chase by supposedly solving WWWH first either. 🙂 The truth of the matter is, while the poem was certainly written in some sort of order, it is technically possible for someone to stumble across the chest without ever having known about the poem at all!! So to say, one thing “needs” to be done before the other is sort of moot.

            That said, I do like the idea of a more wholistic approach. After all, it’s the entire poem that will get you there and not one or two of the clues. Even those who supposedly “solved” clues one and/or two but not the rest still don’t have the chest in hand. And IF they actually SOLVED the first two clues, then surely following up on their previous solves OUGHT to lead them to the rest. But let’s face it, that hasn’t happened in the past several years either.

            I am assuming none of the poem has actually been solved. If so, then the gathering of information by serious searchers would certainly narrow down the possible starting points, since those are the clues seemingly deemed to have been “solved.”

            In terms of FF saying the treasure would never be found starting in the middle, perhaps he was referring to the literal BOTG chase and not analysis of the poem. In either case, I have just as good a chance of finding the chest by scouring the entire search area with a metal detector at this point, as all this conjecturing here does. Unless and until, someone or someones definitely deduce anything for certain, we are all left to guess.

            Realistically, I would hold a conference, perhaps annually, to collect data and update everyone on the latest information. While chatter is nice, is there anyone seriously mapping all of this out geographically, topologically and deductively? If I am trying to find a needle in the haystack, I certainly would begin from one end and systematically search the stack eliminating areas one at a time until I found the needle. I would also keep those areas away from he pile once searched so as not to make the pile endless.

            There are literally only so many places the chest could. And while that number may be large at first glance, it surely should be able to be narrowed some quite quickly. As a mathematician though, it is boils down to a numbers game for me. The chest is either in x, y, z, etc…..and one by one you eliminate where it is not.

            The poem tells us where the chest is. It also tells us where the chest is not. And I imagine the thins FF has said over the years helps tell us too. I don’t think WWWH standing alone will get us there, WWWH in conjunction with the rest of the information will. Until the chest is actually found, it’s impossible to say what the best approach will be unless of course you are FF.

            One last note: while the “9 clues” may be 9 distinct clues, you have to consider the context in which they are written. For instance, it would not make sense to try and interpret lines 5 and 6 separately since they are actually part of the same sentence. Similarly, while some clues may be separated grammatically, the meaning from one line to the next may carry over, as in some of the rules of grammar already discussed.

            IMO, if someone has figured out one of the clues, they have figured out all of the clues.

            -Ann

          • Hi Ann: thank you very much! And let me just say that for someone who is brand new to the Chase, you are coming up to speed very rapidly.

            Your counter is noted: that so far solving WWWH first has been just as successful an approach to finding Indulgence as has been attempting to solve home of Brown first. 😉 I still think it’s wisest to heed Forrest’s advice and work the clues in order.

            “While chatter is nice, is there anyone seriously mapping all of this out geographically, topologically and deductively?”

            Some have attempted this type of divide-and-conquer approach (e.g. creating websites with maps of all the places that people have used for WWWH). I don’t think it can be practically applied to the Chase; very few areas have been searched with the sort of precision that could eliminate them.

            The bronze casket is only 10″ x 10″ x 6″, and getting within 200 feet of it is apparently insufficient for guaranteed discovery. How close do we have to come before failure is no longer likely? About the only guidance we have on that is point #2 from Scrapbook 78:

            https://dalneitzel.com/2014/06/25/scrapbook-seventy-eight/

            As a mathematician, you can estimate the number of miles you would have to walk in the 4-state search area in order to complete a 24-foot boustrophedonic (50-cent word for the day!) grid, thus guaranteeing an approach to within 12 feet of the treasure. (It’s thousands of times the distance to the Moon.) I should think finding a needle in an acre-sized haystack would be easier (especially with a magnet or a metal detector!)

          • Zaphod,

            Thanks for sharing the link! I am indeed new to all of this so any information at this point is most welcome and useful. Like getting caught up to speed.

            I looked over the link. FF echoed my sentiments about certainty. No one will know they are right for sure until they have chest in hand.

            That said, his remarks do tell us a couple things:
            1. People have been close to the location of the treasure.
            2. FF doesn’t know which clues or how many got them there.
            3. Whatever led the searchers there, didn’t indicate to them that they were close.
            4. Whatever led them there, didn’t reveal whatever was missing for them to succeed.
            5. And, while they may have been close, whatever was missing from their “solve” wasn’t obvious enough for them to fill in the gaps.

            Is there anything I am missing?

            -Ann

      • Good one Jake. Took me a minute…I”m from Colorado. Bud is endemic in the local vernacular but I don’t think it makes anyone wiser!

      • I think a clue could be a structure but the treasure chest doesn’t have to be there. But what do I know.

      • Agreed. The concept of a home existed long before the more modern man made structure. And many solves are incorrectly interpreting ‘home’ as ‘house’ and instantly visualizing a building.

        Also, I think I met you in mid-June 2019 hiking near West Yellowstone. I was with my cousin who is from Michigan. I wasn’t willing to share my solve at the time, but I’ve since finished searching there and published my reasons online. Google my name + solve if you want to see my reasons for searching nearby.

  6. My home of brown is the home of the brown owl, which is Colorado. The picture of the bird in the nest in ttotc alludes to this. So it makes it under the brown owls nest! I have a few other home of Brown’s but that would give to much away..every clue is like a bullseye of multiple clues that zero you into a location!

    • Hazel,

      Interesting tidbit of information. Wasn’t aware of the brown owl connect. Do any of your HOB’s have anything to do with Molly Brown?

      -Ann

    • Hazel,
      On the day of a search and Mr.O is not home, how do you know it’s an owls-nest. Squirrels nest in the same tree holes and build the same stick nest. Is a searcher to stay to see who habits the home?
      In my back yard, over ten acre, there are hoot, screech, brown and barn owls with dozen of squirrel’s nest [grey and red]… not to mention the perching Turkeys at nite… lol you would go crazy trying to find hoB in that parcels of woods.

      • Seeker, it’s just one home of brown that leads you to the correct search state. There are other home of Brown’s that lead you closer to a single spot.

        • Hazel & Seeker,

          In conjunction with my preposition analysis of line 8, Hazel’s HOB could be the HOB down in the canyon (and yes I mean the entire state of Colorado) as being the one you have to pass moving southerly to reach the end that is nigh and find the blaze. In other words, such a Chase would take you into NM, but could potentially start much further north where the WWWH. Some food for thought.

          -Ann

  7. I know “Put in” has been discussed before in terms of the nautical definition as a place to enter boats into water. While I do not support this line of thought, I would entertain the possibility that “Put in” is instructional as opposed to descriptive. In which case, as an instruction, “Put in” would refer to “it” began in line five and continued down the canyon in line six. Instructionally, we would have to put “it” in below the home of Brown. And by this I do not mean the chest, but rather, by starting “it” and following “it” downward one would eventually place “it” somewhere below the home of Brown. Perhaps stated a better way you would be passing by the home of Brown on your way down whatever “it” is. (Again i.e.-a path perhaps.)

    -Ann

    • I think it should also be kept in mind that “it” could refer to a road that begins at WWWH and is taken down into a canyon past the HOB, all by car. Then from some point forward there it would be a journey by foot (“From there it’s no place for the meek”).

      Side Note: I just examined a possible avenue to this idea and discovered that the same road passes by two HOB’s. Quite ironic I believe.

      -Ann

  8. The poem and book were written before the map came out in the second book. At first, Fenn stated that the treasure was hid in the Rockies north of Santa Fe. The Canadian Rockies were still in play. Fenn also stated that a little girl in India with a map of the US Rockies could not get past the third clue. Why? IMO she had the wrong map. IMO The third clue (HOB) is in the Canadian Rockies and eliminates Canada from the search area. The founder of Waterton National Park (also buried there) is John Kootenai Brown. And in my opinion this is the HOB. Also, worth noting that Fenn mentioned his surprise that the Benchmark Maps in the second book did not include Canada.

    • Patrick,
      HoB might be connected to a reference of Canada.. being the national animal the Brown beaver. HL and WH could refer to “Water -ton” Waterton Lake, NPFTM can be considered the USA side of the RM’s as home of the brave.
      The thing about Waterton Lake is it sits in both countries… created by a glacier {WWsH} On the continental divide. Is the end of the Continental divide [ the end is ever drawing nigh ] depicting the CD trail [ the back bone of the RM’s] which bring us to the Mountains [more than 8.25 miles] N. of SF?

      The question would be; did fenn follow his clue when he hid the chest? In a theory like this?
      He would need to… he just turn right out his drive and go to the last clue and hide the chest, right?
      The elimination of Canada only says; the chest is not there. The chest lays in wait in the remaining four USA states. Surprisingly are all directly connected by the Continental Divide.

      There’s be chatter about the CDT for some time… what do you bring to the table. I’m all ears.

      • Seeker,

        I just started to the North of Molly Brown’s Home and decided to use the road that passes by it (Highway 25). This road also passes by the Home Brown in Colorado Springs. I like the CD idea but having followed the road I did, I found no end drawing nigh, except when rising in elevation. It;s not so fantastic to imagine FF wanted the Chase to take up the length of the map. Perhaps NM is near the end……

        -Ann

      • Maybe there is a name of a place in Canada that is also in one of the 4 search states. Making Canada a hint that may help with the clues. Or at least the start, 🙂

    • Patrick,

      That is an interesting idea!
      I have often wondered why he said that Canada missing from the map was a clue. Especially since the chest is obviously not in Canada. If it was, he would have to have called off the search or get a new map issued. But if Canada only affected one of the clues, the chest is still in play.

      “There’s the major clue in the book, but I don’t think it will help you find the treasure chest. I’ll tell you what the clue is. In the back of my book, there’s a map. I’ve said that the treasure chest is hidden in the Rocky Mountains. Here’s a treasure chest of the Rocky Mountains. If you knew where the treasure chest is hidden, you could find it on this map. The map stops at Canada. The Rockies keep going up there, but I said that it’s in the Rocky Mountains which would include Canada. When this book was printed, I didn’t realize that Benchmark Maps that made this map stopped at the Canadian border. That’s a clue, but it’s not going to help you much.” FF, Moby Dickens Bookshop, 11/2/2013 (42:32 minute mark).
      https://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/28/moby_dickens/

      • Lori,

        That IS interesting. Supposing the Canadian part of the Rockies had anything to do with the Chase and not necessarily the final resting place of the chest it seems that Canada would be a great place to start! Perhaps that is where WWWH begins the whole trip, which as I have mentioned elsewhere, wouldn’t surprise me if it took the entire length of the Rockies to finish. After all, it would merely, be a matter of driving which FF is known to have done. Sometimes you just have to step back and take a glance at the larger picture! (Or in this case larger chase!)

        -Ann

  9. Waterton Lake sits on both sides but Waterton National Park and John Kootenai Browns home and grave are on the Canadian side. I am in agreement with CDT after all a backbone is something foreign to the meek.

    • Patrick,

      Where then would WWWH and end on nigh lie? The HOB could just be in passing. I would imagine that such a stretched out Chase would have a rather blatant beginning and end. That would surely be nice.

      -Ann

      • Patrick,

        As a PS, perhaps te nigh end and obvious blaze is when the path turns east or west to face the sun, although FF apparently did the hiding in the afternoon. Not such a great thought after all,

        -Ann

  10. I had believed that the Home of Brown may have been a place of origin. Perhaps of a river. I took a long serious look at the origin of the Rio Puerco river. The Rio Puerco was so named because down stream it is muddy brown and like a pig. But at its origin there is the Rio Puerco Gorge. Warm Waters halt there in a canyon down. And, there are waterfalls galore. A marvel gaze. A gorgeous gorge… I still can’t rule it out. But I can’t recommend it as a search area either. It doesn’t fit the definition of not far but too far to walk. It is WAY out there.

    Another place of origin that I like is the original Picuris Pueblo at Pot Creek Cultural Site. Why Brown? I asked the governor of the pueblo and the woman working in the office, what color did the word picuris refer to. Why was it called piduris? They didn’t seem to know what I was trying to ask? So they said “Brown”. Whether they intended to or not, they told me what I desperately wanted to hear. Another searcher that lives in that area said that the title given to the governor was said to be Brown. Perhaps in honor of John Baptiste Brown. A famous frontier man that had wintered south of Taos. Which is an unvarified story that I couldn’t find or link to. I had asked the governor and the woman if there were any books available that told the history of Picuris pueblo. But, the library was being remodeled and I could not access it. So, they suggested that I go to the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center in Albuquerque. My eyes lit up as I told them that I was going there that night, because my favorite band was going to be playing there. I recommended that she go there for some great music and dancing. That was my attempt at asking her out right in front of her husband. NOT SMOOTH. And I didn’t find the sort of books that I was looking for there either. Still I am intrigued at the possibility of that area being the location of the Home of Brown.
    see my link…

    • Michael,

      What a wonderful share! This is the sort of dialogue we should be having. I was interested to know more about this John Baptiste Brown you mention. A quick search didn’t produce any direct results but I did find the following link interesting.

      https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/blm/ut/7/chap1.htm

      You should certainly be able to find books or information online regarding your query. If you do, and you have updates, please keep me posted. And if you know where I may be able to find out more on John Baptiste, do share.

      -Ann

      • Thanks for the link. It clarifies the person of Jean Baptiste Brown, and his mythical character.
        The link gives us good reason to consider why Browns Hole in Colorado is one of the top places for the Home of Brown. And it’s a good place to just visit and camp.

        The only book that I have found about the Picuris Pueblo can be downloaded for free on pdf.
        http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/sit/id/27
        PICURIS PUEBLO THROUGH TIME:
        EIGHT CENTURIES OF CHANGE AT A
        NORTHERN RIO GRANDE PUEBLO

        In that book is a description of the colors used at Picuris Pueblo in their kivas. Note the rainbow colors:

        “Rainbows In the Picuris paintings, rainbows appear only near the subsidiary ventilator on the west wall opposite the main ventilator. The rainbows are paired, one on either side of the subsidiary vent in Kivas. In Kiva A the rainbows are asymmetrical; the one on the south side has bands of white, red, green, yellow, and green in a shallow arc placed on a level with the top of the subsidiary vent shaft. The rainbow on the north has red, green, and yellow bands in a semicircular arc beginning at about the midpoint of the shaft opening. In Kiva B plaster was found only on the west wall, but that wall had been replastered and painted three times . On each layer, a rainbow was found just north of the subsidiary ventilator. On the earliest layer, the rainbow consists of a narrow black border above and below framing three wider bands of red, green, and red; the second layer has bands of yellow, black, green, and red; and the final layer is like the first. The rainbows of the first and the final layers are approximately in the same position; that on the middle layer is lower and offset a bit toward the south. In Kiva B, the south rainbow is angled at the sides rather than curved, and a single corn plant with a bird perched on top is placed between the subsidiary ventilator and the north rainbow. The south rainbow was painted in alternating bands of yellow and gray, with a color reversal in the north rainbow. In Kiva C, corn plants flank the subsidiary ventilator, with similar rainbows of red, gray, black, gray, yellow, gray, black, gray, and red next to the corn plants on either side. The corn plants are absent in Kiva D, and the rainbows consist of bands of white, red, black, and red.”

        • Michael,

          Very interesting indeed, Thanks for sharing! I was intrigued by Brown’s Hole as well. I wonder what other clues may line up there.

          -Ann

    • Michael – I remember you mentioning the Picuris Pueblo before and how they name their governor with the title of Brown. I always thought that was one of the better home of Brown ideas I’ve heard others mention.

      I hadn’t heard the Rio Puerco idea before, but I see what you mean about the area of its source not holding a lot of promise. There’s not much else out there in that area that I can see related to the other clues. That river isn’t the easiest to find on Google Earth either! At first it looked like it was way down in Albuquerque. It’s another unique idea.

      I also laughed at your goof on hitting on the married librarian! Ah well, it made a funny story and better luck next time! 😉

    • Michael,
      Thank you for sharing this.
      You said an area doesn’t fit the definition of “not far, but too far to walk”.
      Have you considered that two locations on a map might only be an inch apart, so “not far”, but still be “too far to walk”?

      Just a thought.

  11. List of potential HOBs:

    Molly Brown
    Home Brown
    Brown Hole Road
    Brown Hole

    These places cover three of the four states, I’d be interested to know if anyone has a WWWH near any of these. I would also be interested in a good source of topological maps indicating elevation and a source of glacial mappings. Please let me know where such information may most easily be obtained.

    -Ann

    • Ann and others–
      A few have mentioned Canada in above posts. I have to give credit to a poster named “Wolf”, who long ago pointed out that Arthur Roy Brown the WW1 pilot who shot down Baron Von Richtofen was a Canadian.

      At that time Canada had not been removed from the search area. To “put in below the Home of Brown” may shrink the search area to the USA. It could be that each clue shrinks the area:

      North America to the USA. The USA to four states. A clue that zeroes in on one state from there, then one county, area, etc. This may indeed be the case. Who really knows? Wolf had a complete article about Roy Brown. He did quite a bit of research back then (well before I joined the Chase).

      I just wanted to share that.

      • Sparrow – Great Big Picture thoughts! I miss The Wolf. Thanks for mentioning him and his theories. Maybe he is enrolled in the NASA space program by now? Could home of Brown be Mars, because of the Fe content of that Red Planet???

    • Nice list of Brown locations, but if Forrest’s HOB had the word ‘Brown’ in it on a map, I think it would have been found long ago.
      -IMO

      Moody

      • I’m opinionated, let me start with that….

        I’ll give my best advice as it applies here. Take note:

        2444666668888888

        What’s this number sequence?
        I just wrote 12345678 in another way. You have twist your mind to think in another aspect. My opinion. Your mileage may vary, and I’m not in possession of the chest, so there’s that. Lol. Good luck!

    • mbg,

      What is the GNIS site?

      Sparrow,

      Interesting about Arthur Brown. It may indeed narrow the search as you’ve suggested. I just posted a question in the WWWH thread asking f anyone had considered the numerical degrees of latitude at which water is normally defined to be warm (namely 37 on the low end and 40 on the high end). That would create a specific staring point north or south.

      Moody,

      Not necessarily seeing as how there are several possible places on maps with the name Brown in them or a version thereof. An yet, a typical paper map will not contain places such as Molly Brown’s Home on them. you only find that sort of info on digital maps. So while Brown may certainly refer directly to such a house (or even named geographic location) that doesn’t mean it would readily be found on any map. I did posit the question of whether anyone found a direct connect between the words in the poem and any that may appear on the map FF chose to outline the search area. And it’s been said elsewhere that FF has been known to say that you would not have to look up the words in the poem. So it seems like information gained through looking up the words would not be useful, But that’s also a big if.

      -Ann

    • Hey Ann – many of your questions can be answered by searching this blog. One place to start is “Other Searchers Stories” on the right hand side of the page – a multitude of searchers have published their solutions here. Also, to make things even easier, you can go the google search site of the blog on the bottom right of the page, just below Dal’s smiling face LOL. You may have noticed that conversations don’t “flow” here and comments get easily overlooked. Hope this helps.

      • And Ann, most definitely go to “Dal’s Adventures”. He tells an exciting tale and has searched all 4 states from the beginning. I’ve lost track of all his searches but I can’t think of too many places he hasn’t been.

        • Sally,

          Thanks! I will definitely have to do more exploring of the information available here. There is more than I can sort through for sure!

          -Ann

  12. 56 geographical names containing Brown in Montana above 5000 feet
    47 in wyoming
    110 in colorado
    47 in new mexico
    That’s raw data, in that it includes Dams, Reservoirs Mines, valleys, summits, Cemeteries, Locales, Cliffs, streams, springs, canals, populated places, buildings, gaps, trails, lakes, deltas. ridges, flats, airports, ranges, schools, and probably a few others.
    Also, HoB may be below 5000 feet, but I have not looked there.

    I think there are 193 recognized Hot Springs across the 4 states
    Of course WWWH may not be a thermal feature, and HoB may be a play on words.
    mBg

    • mBG,

      Thank you for providing some raw data! I believe you may be able to narrow both lists down by eliminating those places outside the elevation parameters given by FF. I think those were between 5,000 and 10,000 feet. Someone correct me if I am wrong. That said, you may also want to include glacial records in for WWWH, as glaciers could be where the warm waters ended since the water froze for the glaciers. I would also eliminate any WWWH that falls below (in elevation) all the of the HOBs. And finally, for now, I would eliminate the WWWH and HOBs too remote to access by car and foot by an 80 year old man with a heavy load. That should narrow it down some for the time being.

      -Ann

      • 1. Those HoB numbers are all over 5000 feet
        2. There is no need to go to HoB, so eliminating those doesn’t work

        BTW, off-topic, I don’t buy in to your glacier theory for WWWH. Not “Fenny” enough and nothing warm near a glacier. I spent some time with “does WWWH == Where Cold Waters Start” but I gave that up. I’m more of a thermal feature, basin, sink, tub, tears, transition from calm to rapids, and general metaphors kind of guy.

        mBG

        • mbg,

          Seems to me that warm waters ending would indicate some form of a limit, either physical or otherwise. The glacial reference was to the formation of certain geographical features formed by glaciers during the last ice age, not a modern day glacier. And while there may not be a need to go to the HOB, if one is so remote as to be considered not below where you need to be then those could certainly be eliminated. For instance, Cincinnati, OH (home of the Browns) is ruled out be mere location. Although, from a latitudinal stand point any home of Brown, globally, could be considered (such as has been suggested with Canada) since below such a home of Brown would merely refer to south of the latitude associated with it. Obviously if we knew who or what Brown was then that would help us understand below.

          -Ann

          • Self Follow Up-

            If WWWH is connected to HOB, as some here suggest, it is possible that below for HOB also refers to the lower limit of warm water (37 degrees typically) that WWWH may refer to. In that sense, the two could be connected. I would not bet on it though.

            -Ann

  13. In my humble opinion, the home of Brown can not be found on a map.

    Among other things, Forrest has said that people have solved the first two clues but passed, or walked, right past the others. He has said that he doesn’t think anyone has solved past the first two clues. He has also said the Indian girl could not get closer than the first two clues. I paraphrased those quotes obviously.

    IMO this means that a map can only get u to the location(s) of the first two clues. Any Brown on a map would surely be thoroughly searched for the chest and/or the following clues, and no doubt they have. You can not start in the middle of the poem, you have to start at the beginning. If you could search a map for a Brown then that would be a short cut, not to mention just being too easy.

    For a variety of reasons, I don’t have a solve for “Put in below the home of Brown”. However, knowing how not to solve a clue can prove to be a valuable asset.

    • To follow up with some basic logic, f has had a couple hundred thousand emails. I’m sure every Brown on a map has been used as part of the solves he’s received, yet he says no one has solved past the first two clues. So unless home of Brown is clue number two, it’s not on a map. And again, if it were on a map, people would skip the first clue(s) to get to it but f has said u can’t start in the middle. IMO

      • Distant Logic,

        I like your logical thinking.
        However we do have some knowledge that some [searchers] may have solved the first four clues…

        Regardless of how we can side step or rip apart the comment; Should hoB fall within said four clues, we now have a major dilemma.
        The questions I present is; what did or didn’t the searcher do? How did they proceed from the first clue to the fourth, and still got it correct as it may have been indicated to fenn.. lol and still didn’t know something?
        Unfortunately we have limited info to work with on that particular comment. But is seems to me; the process might be the killer in the action, rather than searchers didn’t decipher hoB.
        For example; I tell you to go to the Empire State Building and look south… many might think the clue is the building, or even south or NYC itself. But those things are just places… the “clue” would be “elevation” or correct spot, to view in a direct.
        The location is given, the direction is given… the instruction as to what to do ‘look’ is given… But the “elevation factor” is what is needed to actually see what it is that needs seeing. [Example; looking out the 40th floor window won’t achieve the same results].
        The next clue should be what we need to look at…
        The same can be said for fenn’s poem and why we need to be present at WWsH… to see hoB?

        I’ve said it before; it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if hoB has been visited/decipher for what it is… the question is, do we actually go to it?
        How can the first four possible clues [including hoB] be deciphered?/solved? and still be wrong?

        • I’ll clarify, I believe home of Brown is likely a geographical location and can be found on a map. I just don’t believe it has the name Brown.

          • LOL,
            I’m not big on names of places either.
            With that said; I can see how something in the poem can refer to a singular location within a larger area. For example only; No Place for the Meek could refer to the USA when looking at all of the RM’s range, line of thinking.

        • Hi Seeker, I don’t think the first four clues are being misinterpreted. I think searchers that possibly have been at the HOB, misinterpreted, the put in below part.

          • James,
            Wouldn’t that be a misinterpretation?
            Or do you consider hoB [ for example ] clue 4 with “below it” as another clue [ clue 5?] ~ the line containing two clues…
            This bring me back to an old question and a comment I posted above… how many clues give a reader an answer?
            It seems you are breaking the sentence “PIBTHOB” as two clues. I’m ok with that, I’m just curious to how you see what the other clues are prior…
            I mean, we are talking about the first four clues and IF hoB is one of them.

        • IMO what could cause f to be unsure about whether someone solved the fourth clue (assuming it’s HoB) is they revealed their location to him without explicitly telling him their solve for the fourth clue/HoB. If those who solved the first two clues walked right past the other seven clues then they also could’ve been at HoB without truly solving that clue. f did say that those who solved the first two clues didn’t know it because they didn’t understand it’s connection to the rest of the poem. It’s possible that has happened for the HoB clue as well. But I don’t think the first four clues may have been solved because someone ended up going to Brown Mountain or any other such place.

          • Hi DL,
            If “Not far, but too far to walk” is clue #3 and it’s really the distance the searchers that had solved WWWH and TIITCD (first 2 clues) could park exactly near PIBOTHOB. Then they searched around in many directions and might be were very close to the blaze and TC (200-500 feet).
            If they send Forrest parking lot location (photo or just name) and their final destination point of BOTG search around this spot Forrest knew that they started BOTG exactly from PIBOTHOB parking lot. But they never said him why they parked there. He hypothesised that it was just accidental stop during their travel along CD. Maybe they did several stops and BOTG during this CD travel.
            Problem is that after the hoB we should have only 5 clues. Thus, searchers that were at 200-500 feet are still not passes even 1-2 clues more after hoB. Can we say that when you start walking after the hoB toward TC you will not meet next clue before you approach TC within 200-500 feet? How many clues between the hoB and point that located 200-500 feet from TC?

    • I believe you are correct about HOB. It’s something specific to the area of the search and can’t be found on a map. I believe it’s a fishing hole FF has fished in the past. I have a good hunch of WWWH and the canyon. In late spring I will do more looking in depth for HOB. Hope to update more in June.

  14. HOB, is a geographical location like the other 8 clues and is named on a map.
    IMO of course

    • Eaglesabound,

      An entire mountain [ by its peak ] is a geographical, with many geographical locations all over said mountain.

      So, I’m curious to what you consider are the poems’ geographical clues?

      For example; Should NF,BTFTW be considered a clue to you and that clue involves some distances between two point… Those point have a GEO-location but the distance can’t.
      Doesn’t that make a clue to have a non-local-?- yet give up prudent information as a clue?
      “Down” can be in elevation or a direction of N E S W, for example, but those two ideas for down don’t have a Geo-location.
      Don’t some of the “9 clues” have to be directional and/or instructional in manner?

      ** Geographic location refers to a position on the Earth. Your absolute geographic location is defined by two coordinates, longitude and latitude….In geography, location and place are used to identify a point or an area on the Earth’s surface or elsewhere. The term location generally implies a higher degree of certainty than place.
      [Hence the geo-local of a mountain is considered it peak – the distance from bottom to top { base to peak } doesn’t. yet there are many locations in-between].

      • He said “to marry them to a place on a map” (Forrest Fenn quote from Mysterious Writings Six Questions with Forrest Fenn Feb 4th, 2017)

        “A place on a map” is is pretty general. I propose that routes can be considered places. So the route from WWWH to Below HoB (NF,BTFTW) would be married to a place on a map. Others may disagree, of course.

        mBG

    • EA,
      While I agree the poem’s clues correlate to a map, the “named” premise seems to contradict the information provided by the LGII Q&A (question 5):
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/ .

      IMO, there’s a wealth of discernable information in the Q&A relevant to the poem’s the second stanza. I could be wrong, but it appears designed to get searchers started in the correct place.

      Just a best guess.
      Joe

    • It is tough for me to believe that Brown is a name on a map. Unless the ‘put in below’ is wrong, how would searchers not figure it out after getting the first two clues if it was on the map. So a searcher gets two clues, and there is something on the map nearby with the name of Brown, and they miss their put in spot?

      • Agreed, Aaron: anything with the actual name “Brown” on a map would be far too easy. And if “Put in below the home of Brown” is a clue (and I’d say the odds of that are very high), and it’s not the 2nd clue (also very high odds, IMO), then something has to be tricky about it that prevented two-clue solvers from quickly becoming 3- or 4-clue solvers.

        • A note on Brown-

          Clearly the name “Brown” does not appear on the map FF has provided us to show the possible search area, and yet “home of Brown” certainly refers to somewhere or something in that area.

          -Ann

      • I believe that f capitalized Brown so that it did appear on a map.
        It’s on my map.

        • If one knew Brown, wouldn’t they go to the chest?

          Why not just search everything named Brown in the RM’s if it is a name on a map? If we could do this then the statements about needing to know wwwh would be irrelevant would they not?

          • Eagles – Just a weird thought – What if hoB, Heavy Loads and the blaze were – in fact – one and the same? Now that would be thinking out of the box wouldn’t it? Just musin’ – JDA

          • Hi Aaron,
            I’m sure that Forrest is too smart to include in poem the place that could be found on the map via searching name Brown. Brown is coded name and only Forrest knows what it is.
            He said that knowing who or what is Brown will immediately reveal TC location (maybe even without knowing what is WWWH).
            IMO, but each searcher should have both WWWH and the hoB before BOTG.

          • To All,

            FF’s comments regarding HOB and going straight to the treasure (I suggest re-watching the video) suggests to me that Brown is indeed connected directly to a pinpointable named location. Whether “Brown” is in the name or not I cannot say. But clearly if we know who or what Brown refers to we would know where to go. Something all should keep in mind when considering a potential solve. I would venture to say that such thought would rule out things like brown trout or brown shoes (Or any other ambiguous reference for brown). Brown is a clear identifier. What sort of identifier I cannot say, but an identifier nonetheless.

            -Ann (IMO)

            Side Note: I should just change my name to IMO so that I don’t have to remember to disclaim!

          • EB, hard to believe the PIBHOB spot is far from the chest considering searchers have come so close to the chest with only 2 clues solved. What are your thoughts?

          • Andy S ~ *He said that knowing who or what is Brown will immediately reveal TC location (maybe even without knowing what is WWWH).*

            Umm Errr not exactly… in fact ‘who’ was never mentioned nor the ‘immediately reveal’ … well, anything.

        • we can all agree that line is the clue but hoB is not the clue we’re looking for mirror it find Brown to find home to find the put in below ? what was put in below the hoB is on the map. ff said Brown is not a person, Brown is not trout baer bever ect. that leaves a place and not on map is not a place. now it’s not a man made strucster. The WWWH is the answer to this questoin. with out that you have nothing. but I’ll give you something to think about is Brown a people not a person?

          • Richard,
            I’ve read a lot of quotes and I’ve got a pretty decent memory but I don’t ever remember him saying Brown wasn’t a person. I’m not saying I believe that to be an inaccurate statement, I’m just really curious if you had a sourced quote that confirmed it. If so that would change or narrow down the idea for me. I just did my own attempt at searching for quotes that appeared to say that and I had no such luck. The only thing I found was this one that seems to imply the opposite or at the very least, leave the idea wide open.

            4/2/2013 HDNET World Report

            LONDON: In the poem, which you say has these nine clues, there are references to water, there is a reference to Brown’s house. Who’s Brown?

            FENN: There’s references to wood.

            LONDON: But you didn’t answer my question, who is Brown?

            FENN: Well, that’s for you to find. If I told you that, you’d go right to the chest.

        • Fenn has said several times you can’t find home of brown without finding WWWH so there’s no chance Brown is on a map. Brown is something specific to the area that only makes sense when you see it.

          • Cody: IMO your logic is flawed. What “home of Brown” is may be clever or allegorical and go unrecognized as such unless prior clues put you on the trajectory to encounter and recognize it for what it is.

            Forrest has also said (paraphrased) that ALL of the clues could be solved from home, at least theoretically (if not in practice). “Put in below the home of Brown” is clearly not the last clue, so if hoB could *only* be solved by seeing it in person, then that would leave multiple clues that can’t be solved from home — contradicting Forrest’s statement.

          • Zap, I’m not sure that FF’s use of the word “theoretically” tells us that it absolutely can be found from home. Of course in your line of work you probably understand this word better than I. Doesn’t a theory represent something that still needs to be either proved or disproved through a testing process? In this case going on site. His quote was about how many clues can be found from home and he stated “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            https://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/25/scrapbook-one-hundred-sixty-six-2/

            All of this being said, I am interested in possible HoB now that can be found from home. It is related to my WWH, and it can only be found from home through research. It is more likely to be found on site, and only at certain times, meaning there is not always a visual indication of it.

          • Zap ~ *Forrest has also said (paraphrased) that ALL of the clues could be solved from home, at least theoretically (if not in practice).*

            As Aaron showed *(if not in practice)* is not the same as “but not in practice”
            Another comment relates to the same premise as Aaron implied; It’s not absolute ‘all’ clues can be found at home…

            3)Excerpt from MW’s Six Questions 2018

            Q) How much knowledge do you think a normal East Coast Kid has to have to find your treasure? Or is Imagination enough. As an example, would an East Coast Kid have to become familiar with the western ways, languages, and other manners of the Rockies?

            A) It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. **Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve.** Google Earth cannot help with the last clue. f

            {**high lighting a ‘physical need’ to be on site after a the first few clues in order to complete the solve**}
            **Few definition:** not many but more than one.

            Now.. IF the last clue can not be seen from google Earth, the comment that *…ALL of the clues could be solved from home…* {as Zap stated}, Then the clues {all} can not be done completely at home… hence; “in theory, but not in practice” and seemingly a need to be on site is very early in the process.

            Little Indy might come to mind; She {or anyone else} can not get closer than the first two clues.
            I’m sure, someone will say that fenn didn’t mean this or that in one or another comment… yet take as a whole and related to each other… the implication seems to say; The solving of the clue’s are greatly determined by being on site early on in the clues… possibly within the first 2 or 3 or 4 [ or contain to stanza 2 ]. Depending on anyone’s idea of clue counts.

            I think Cody as a legit logic to the idea;
            “home of Brown”… go unrecognized as such unless prior clues put you on the trajectory to encounter and recognize it for what it is.

            It does seem the all have been stumped at the avenue of clues 3 and 4… is it because of the idea that; *put you on the trajectory to encounter and recognize it for what it is.* {hoB}?

          • Edit;
            “but not likely in practice.” {correctly stated}
            Rather than
            *But not in practice* {My bad}

          • Hi Aaron and Seeker: “Zap, I’m not sure that FF’s use of the word “theoretically” tells us that it absolutely can be found from home.”

            Just to be clear, I’m not saying that the treasure chest’s specific location can be solved from home, only that I believe the answers to the 9 clues can be. You still have to “get your carcass out there” to find the treasure, and there may be actions that have to be carried out in the field that obviously cannot be undertaken from home.

            “Doesn’t a theory represent something that still needs to be either proved or disproved through a testing process? In this case going on site.”

            Sure. But I’m really looking at this from the reverse angle: Forrest suggested that it was theoretically possible. Suppose a proposed solution 100% required being on site to SOLVE a clue, or worse yet multiple clues. Wouldn’t that be in direct conflict with his statement? Because in such a scenario, it would NOT be theoretically possible to solve all the clues from home. In that case, shouldn’t Forrest have just said something like “Some of them, but not all of them”? Instead, he intrigues us by suggesting that theoretically it IS possible to solve them all from home.

            Now, personally I don’t think a searcher is going to solve all the clues before making at least one, and probably several, BOTG trips. Could Forrest be alluding to the possibility of a hybrid approach: that there is some process of elimination that will almost inevitably have to take place to kill off some good, but incorrect solutions, yet all of the “clue solving” can or even will take place at home?

          • Zap, I guess I have a different take on the “all of them in theory, but not likely in practice” quote. I suppose it’s somewhat subjective, but it sounds like to me he is saying that a searcher can come up with a theory at home that matches all of the clues, yet in reality it is not possible. I looked up ‘in practice’ and found this:
            in reality (used to refer to what actually happens as opposed to what is meant or believed to happen).
            example: “in theory this method is ideal—in practice it is unrealistic”

            So it can be said that in theory the clues could be found at home – in practice it is unrealistic.

            Perhaps if you already know the answers, as he does, he can spot what the clues refer to on a map, but it might be unrealistic for a searcher. Who knows for sure?

          • Zap *Forrest suggested that it was theoretically possible. Suppose a proposed solution 100% required being on site to SOLVE a clue, or worse yet multiple clues. Wouldn’t that be in direct conflict with his statement?*

            I have to say, Nope. Because of the addition of: “… But not likely in practice”
            Isn’t ” in practice” the same as *testing a theory* .. so, the addition of “but not…” Is a negative the the idea of home solving all the clues “in theory”
            Another-words..IF All the clues could be solved at home.. a simple hike to the last clues is all that is needed. LOL yet we’re told the last clue can’t be seen on GE { and that must included maps as well, because fenn made them equal… “GE and/or a good map” }

            Personal note for thought: the last clue could be of an instruction, rather than, a physical place.

          • Hi Seeker: I just know that I would never again leave home without an end-to-end solution, because I’ve been in the field enough times to know that *I’m* not going to solve a clue on site. (Believe me, I’ve tried. It’s like telling myself, “Be creative! Right now!”) Not saying that others won’t be able to do so; just speaking solely for myself.

            Let me bring up part of SB 73:

            “My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

            Link: http://dalneitzel.com/2014/05/26/scrapbook-seventy-three/#comment-40517

            Where you and I may differ on the interpretation of this ATF is that I believe those two verbs (solve and walk) are completely serial in nature, while I think you believe they are parallel (or at least partially parallel).

          • Hey Zap,

            you say….Let me bring up part of SB 73:

            this is my favorite SB. I believe it tells us what B is and also where hoB is…or either my imagination has got the best of me.

          • Zap et al,
            Zap said: ‘Could Forrest be alluding to the possibility of a hybrid approach: that there is some process of elimination that will almost inevitably have to take place to kill off some good, but incorrect solutions….”

            Bingo Zap!
            IMO the poem has multiple solutions which must be eliminated with BOTG. To give an example. Let’s say, you spent lots of time working on the poem and you have a solution which tells you that the spot is located; exactly half way between Santa Fe and West Yellowstone, on the East side of the highway, 10 feet off the road. Theoretically you can jump in your car, pick one of the possible routes and get the chest. Practically tho, with the multitude of possible routes, you have to do lot of driving to get to the chest.

          • Cross-posting another MW Featured Question from 5/22/2017 since it’s possibly relevant to the serial/parallel solve-at-home/solve-on-site debate:
            “Hi Forrest, we are now aware that the poem is a map. If the poem is a map and will tell us exactly where to go, why couldn’t the little girl from India get past the first two clues? I think it’s because after solving all nine clues from home, the ocean prevents her from journeying to the precise location to retrieve the treasure chest. ~ Lagerta the Bold”

            FF: “Dear Whoever Asked This Question, Thanks for answering it for me. f”

            (Note anagram of Lagerta: Get Real, lol)

          • If I say “I am from Leadville, CO and I own a home there, but it like ff’s old one in Temple, TX burns, where is my home now?

            Well it is still in Leadville, just the structure has gone…right?

            Now lest dig or should I say dive a little deeper, what if I am a Brown Beaver, like the one in Educating Ardi, in Scrapbook 246 where Forrest’s Great Grandaughter is being shown a creature who makes its own house, in a creek, so to use the above logic, the Brown Beaver’s home could wash away in a debris flow, but the creek is still there… right?

            I recall ff having said that there was an unintended clue given out in TOO FAR Book, he said they left Canada out of the Rockies, well guess what the National Animal of Canada is… Brown Beaver.

            I rest my case.

            TT

            PS why would a kid have an advantage in solving this, they do not overthink Home of Brown. Also if it took ff 15 years to complete this poem, does anyone not see that first clue, WWWH as a metaphor for something to do with his Church in the Mountains? After SC Book 241 with Las Cruces, it might be a spiritual metaphor?

          • Zap, Fenn has already said that you can’t find HOB without finding the first two clues. So you can’t find HOB on a map. You won’t see HOB till you’re standing in front of it.

          • Hi Codi,

            “Zap, Fenn has already said that you can’t find HOB without finding the first two clues.”

            No, he actually has never said that. You might have inferred it from other statements. I happen to agree with you that no one is going to figure out home of Brown – with confidence – without first solving the first two clues.

            But that is NOT the same thing as saying that what home of Brown *is* is not called out on a map. Suppose home of Brown is Beaver Creek or Fawn Mountain or even Mahogany Ridge Brewery? There is little problem finding homes of Brown on maps; what you can’t do is confidently pick the right one in a vacuum. Like the blaze, you must be led to it, otherwise it’s nothing more than a dart throw.

          • Zap ~ *There is little problem finding homes of Brown on maps; what you can’t do is confidently pick the right one in a vacuum. Like the blaze, you must be led to it, otherwise it’s nothing more than a dart throw.*

            You bring up a point.
            I have suggested; While the “reference” might be found on a map… The question remains; will we be able to understand it / decipher it by GE and/or good map birdseye view? or only solve it correctly from ground level? {I personally think the latter}

            However… in both cases above… doesn’t that imply; hoB may not be solvable from home? {Situ}
            A solve is a solve, not a guess, right?

            LOL which bring me to the old comments.. if you know hoB why be concerned about WWsH? or if we knew hoB it would lead us to the chest… and others mentioned above in this discussion going on…

            In the many comments over the years to this particular clue seems to be a must see on site, Otherwise, and this will get some folks in a ruffle, IF hoB can be solvable from home by a map.. a good hunch could located it without prior clues. That kills the idea of all the clues are needed, and/or the idea that a shortcut is possible. Both of which we are told can’t be done. right?

            Just sayin…. food for thought.

          • Seeker,

            “IF hoB can be solvable from home by a map.. a good hunch could located it without prior clues. That kills the idea of all the clues are needed, and/or the idea that a shortcut is possible. Both of which we are told can’t be done. right?”

            I must disagree.
            In the solve that I am working on, I am able to solve all of the clues (locate them on the map) except the blaze. I believe the blaze is the final clue because once found, you look down and pick up the chest.

            The reason one cannot solve HoB before WWWH or any other clue, is because they are consecutive and must be solved in order. FF has said this more than once. There are many HoBs, but you cannot know if it is the right one without solving the first clue.

            This explains FF’s comment that if you KNOW HoB, why worry about WWWH? Because to KNOW HoB (the correct HoB) implies that you have already solved the preceding clues. If you have not solved any other clues, you cannot KNOW that your HoB is the correct one.

            Once you know the correct HoB, you can walk directly to the chest, not because it is close by, but because solving the clues in order up to that point will show you the correct direction of travel. Then it is just a matter of looking for the blaze to know when to stop.

            Just my opinion.

            -Lori

          • Lori;

            If you can find all of the clues on a map, why couldn’t you start your search at hoB, or paddle creek or HL&WH etc? If they are all on a map why bother with the early clues, why not start at a latter one? JDA

          • Lori,

            Quite agreed! Regarding “solving” of clues. I wanted to reply to one of your other posts as well and as I have caught up now on notifications I will do so here.

            You posted the links for dictionary definitions of Brown. SO sly you are!!! Number three is still unconvincing if only because clicking on it and reading through it’s own page demonstrates the non capitalization nature of the entire term. But you already know my thoughts on HoB. Did you see number two on that same list by chance? Quite interesting in terms of our recent correspondence!! Btw, as of this post I haven’t checked my email yet today in case you have already discussed this matter there. I will do so now. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Hi Lori: you echo my thoughts exactly. The quote questioning why one would care about WWWH if they “know” hoB is a bit of a non sequitur: you can’t know hoB without solving the clues that precede it, so it’s not a realistic scenario.

  15. HOB I believe this to be under a foot bridge, dirt and wood..i just makes sense, since blaze is the fire trail

    • Aaron,
      Forrest never said that the searchers that were the closest were the same searchers that deciphered the 1st 2 clues…IMO of course..

      • I guess we have to debunk this idea again:

        video done by Julius Brighton 5/20/15 with clips of Dal searching and talking…and interview clips with Fenn talking. It is nicely done and informative. At the 6:25 mark or so You can watch Fenn say…”There have been a few people within 500′. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.

  16. not far but too far to walk.. he had to drive his car to the location, so there is a parking lot near by..

    • Linda … searchers on this message board don’t like to talk about parking. But I agree with you that “there is a parking lot near by”.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  17. Well If I follow Forrest childhood I would say as an angler Home of Brown would referance Water, the home of Brown trout?

  18. begin it – by looking for wwwh – and its at the bottom of a canyon – canyon down – its not far but to far to walk -and its below the hob

    • last month I had my voice box removed because of cancer – so im sorry if you all cant hear me

      • Frank I am listening and so very sorry to hear that. You’ve been thru a lot these past few years. I hope your health improves.

        • Thank you sally – that’s nice of you to say that – id be satisfied with at lest one day with out pain but what ever God gives me ill take ill take the pain if its Gods will – just to be here a little longer with my family – I all so wish you good health and happiness – again thank you for your well wishes— frank

          • Sending you well wishes and hopefully a more speedy recovery Frank . I’m so sorry to hear that you went through that .

          • Veronica – thank you for the get well wishes ill be ok – because of people like you and Sally makes me want to keep fighting thank you

      • Frank, how I wish my father had made that decision. He had cancer of larynx twice. Would not have the surgery. Lost him when I was 29. Stay strong and bless you for your courage. Paulette

        • Sorry Dal I know this is for hob place to comment but I feel I need to answer paulette . they operated on me twice and one was when they removed my larynx . I can not take another operation.what the dr, do to remove the cancer is more painful then the sickness. be glad your dad tried .give him at least that much . he was also a strong man to take it that far — frank

  19. me Big Guy, the last hob thread, I posted this ATF:
    Mr. Fenn,
    You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book.
    My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
    No I don’t madam, sorry. f

    You’re reply:
    The ATF just says that of all the HoB,’s etc hinted at in the TTOTC book, the book doesn’t give you a hint regarding which option (hint) is correct. But, HoB could be hinted at in the book, or not.
    I’m confused by your answer. From what I see, it says:
    do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?
    Says nothing about a hint. Is that your interpretation or am I posting the wrong wording to that ATF?
    He is not saying the correct answer to an option, he is saying, straight forward, if f is giving the answer to one of the above, hoB, Brown, blaze, wwwh.
    I don’t know where you get that f is referring to some options or hints with his answer. The question is asked, “do you also”, followed by telling us the correct answer.
    If he is not putting the correct answer to those things in the book, then he is not giving the answer to those things.
    You then go on to comment about “I’ll go so far as to say that if you don’t have an “on the map” geographical HoB in context with your other clue solutions/locations, then you should stay home”.
    Maps will help with where you are going, but you are forgetting that all we need is the poem, and the poem only. That would mean before getting a map to see this hoB, you would already know the name or place of hoB, if there was an answer to it. Which is where the ATF comes in, there is no answer.
    Therefore, you will not know what or exactly where the hoB is, and there is nothing out there that will give you that answer.
    “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem”.
    The poem is in the book.
    are the answers to wwwh, hoB, Brown, or the blaze in the book?
    NO.
    Since this is the case, a different method is needed to find those answers, instead of trying to solve them. I think you are confusing the need to solve clues to get your path. This isn’t entirely true.
    “I want sweaty bodies out there looking for my treasure- they just have to FIND the clues”.

    https://clubthrifty.com/forrest-fenn-an-interview/
    Holly: What tips do you have for those wanting to find the treasure?
    Forrest: Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.

    No mention this early in the game about marrying the clues to a map. Just solving the poem.
    And with that, we know that f has not given the answers in a subtle way. The answers are also not in the poem, since the poem is in the book. I post all this because it brings up Seeker’s ol’ question, “are we reading the poem correctly”?
    If you have an answer to hoB beforehand, then at it’s core, it has to be a guess.
    And those who guess in the chase will return with smaller wallets.
    Same is true for the other things mentioned, the problem is, that searchers continue to read the poem incorrectly. That the only way to put an “x” on a map is to solve for clues that they have no idea what they even are. Everybody is doing it, and that violates what f has said. A new way to interpret the poem is needed.
    The worse thing a searcher can do is try to solve clues instead of trying to solve the poem. The poem is what needs to be followed precisely. Why do you think f said the minimum amount of clues needed to find the chest is ONE, the last one? That means that the previous 8 don’t need to be solved to find the chest. They will be followed, because some of them, you will not know the answer to.
    Sorry mBG, your answer is coming from your interpretation, and not the actual words used by f.
    And, don’t get it twisted, a map is a good help, so is the book, (minus the poem), and so is GE. But at the core of the chase, only one thing is needed. And that one thing does not have all the answers.
    My advice to new searchers, forget that f told us there are 9 clues, forget using a map at the start, don’t even need the internet. Just have the poem, and only the poem, and come up with a way to decipher it. The second you need to reach for any other info, then realize you are taking yourself away from the poem. If you can find a way to solve the poem, then GE, a map, any and all outside info can be used to confirm your poem solve.
    That’s it. The thing is, that is a very difficult task, but if you need to use anything but the poem to articulate a solve to someone else, then, IMO, you simply have a wrong solve. Everybody has worn out solving clues, a new way to read the poem is needed. That is what a new searcher should spend their time on. Just the poem.

    • poisonivy,

      Well said!! I am new to all of this and from what little i have encountered thus far, I would agree with your sentiments. FF’s poem is like the map Mikey finds in the Goonies. That’ s all one needs to find the chest! If it weren’t then no one would have been able to find the chest prior to any other resources becoming available, including those produced after the poem. Interjecting all of that certainly muddies the waters. The poem alone ought to give us what we need. I posted elsewhere remarks about not looking at the words as they appear to us and our familiarity with them, but in the context of what they mean to FF since he is the author. That seems to me an appropriate way to render the poem, albeit a difficult one. Everything else just seems to be a lot of extraneous noise. And yes, this is all IMO.

      -Ann

      • Ann,
        I’ve said before, I like the way you think.
        FF does say we need the book and the poem (the poem is in the book).
        He does say to read the book and to read the poem as though they were separate tools.

        And as far as all that “extraneous noise” I agree. Information overload.

        ” If I were a new searcher, I would study the poem and not use the blogs as a rule book.” – FF
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/2020-mw-questions-with-forrest-fenn-the-new-era-and-beginning-of-legendary-status/

        • Lori,

          Thanks! I’m not sure I’ll ever get around to reading the book, but that doesn’t take away from the thrill. I know I haven’t gotten to you yet via email. I will as soon as I have time. Have a location you may be interested in, whether it’s a solve or not. Has some ridiculous fits with “my way of thinking.”

          -Ann

        • I think both of you are well on your way, on the right track. The big thing is to just find that niche to solving the poem. That’s obvious info. The poem is what drives this whole chase. Solving that lets everything fall in place. After finding your solve, then the other stuff could come into play as you police your own solve. Then searchers can use their time to solve ATF’s and the like, In fact, I think the hints are more important then the actual clues. Wherever our solve takes us, the clues will follow each other anyway, using the hints to recognize clues is huge.
          Taking the poem at face value is obviously wrong, there must be something underlying.
          Lori, to your other inquiry, every single line has instructions. At least for me. You can see instruction words, words within words, letters, abbreviations, in every line. That is why I posted my answer. Now if your solve says otherwise, then don’t listen to me, stick to your guns until you either prove or disprove.
          I have a feeling that one day, when you both share a write up with the community, the only thing I will need in front of me will be the poem. I might finally be able to read a solve passed the first clue guesses that usually appear, good luck to you two.

          • I totally agree, poisonivey,

            I believe I have my first solve completed and will now work on others. I would like to have three or more possibles before I go BOTG this summer.

            What I found interesting (without disclosing too much), is that once I found the right area and got going in the right direction, everything just fell into place. Every line of the poem makes sense without needing to force anything. It even explained why others have searched (and are still searching) this area and keep coming up empty-handed.

            I don’t know what my blaze will be yet, but I know exactly where to find it, within a matter of a few yards.

            The funny thing is that the solve just sort of hit me in the face. Using only the book and the poem and Google Earth, but what put it together was comments and quotes made right here on this forum. By us exploring ideas and disproving or supporting with quotes from interviews, I got my a-ha moment.

            Thank you one and all. Now, let’s get back to work! 🙂

          • So right Lori, it will all fall into place so easily.
            When you are out, looking for the blaze, maybe also look for a “marvel gaze”. Marvel gaze may be a physical thing in which when you look up from, you would find the blaze. Keep that in the back of your mind.
            The blaze is going to be something out of the ordinary in finding, IMO. It just may be possible that a searcher will never see the blaze, but see the “hint” that uncovers it.
            About the poem solve, there are just times that pop out that you just know you could not have known or thought of. The times when it must have been done by design. there are a lot of “ah-ha” moments, but when you know you’re working on something that was done by design, it’s educating. I’m happy that the poem has shown me how not-so-smart I really am. I wouldn’t be so confident in the end.
            For me, the poem gave up letter values, which in turn gave up most everything. The “x’ on a map, the coordinates. Many don’t see it, but luckily I’m just dumb enough to find it, and figure it out. For me, those coordinates, the almost end spot, could be found on a map, which in turn, gives up the start place, in which “hints” and ‘ATF’s” play a huge roll. I only say this so as to show that just solving the poem is possible.
            In the end, I think you will only settle on one solve. When you know your spot, everything else is just coincidence. Good luck to you.

  20. The Home of Brown is Providence, Rhode Island- and what was put in below Providence?

    • Bohuslaner,

      Great Brown! What’s the latitude there? And good question. I may do some . . . I was going to say finagling with that, but that’s not right! I’ll try to look into it.

      -Ann

  21. A Note on Brown-

    Has the following already been discussed in this thread:

    Does anyone find it ironic that FF wrote a book with a poem in it sparking a treasure hunt not unlike a very popular author around the same time named Dan Brown?

    -Ann

    • Hey Ann – Control+F will give you a “search in page” capability. You can then search this thread and all of the archived HOB threads as well. Dan Brown has been discussed multiple times but I can’t remember when or where. I’m not sure if you have found TarryScant.com yet but that site is also a good reference. Bottom of this page links to other searchers’ blogs/websites. Hope this helps and good luck!

  22. A Not on Brown-

    So I was just a little while ago looking into some thoughts on Brown and I discovered the thread on Brown Canyon. I actually read all of that thread. It is a slightly older thread, but the thought process of those posting seemed to me to be a bit more in tune with “down to earth” information as opposed to much postulating I find elsewhere. While I am not convinced Brown Canyon is HOB, the thread certainly as interesting. I wonder if any of the searchers there are considered by FF to be among those who were “close” to the chest. I have a very different reason for such a suggestion, but seeing as that thread just sort of cut off, I was wondering if there is any news since in terms of Brown Canyon and HOB.

    -Ann

  23. if you are at home of brown – there is water if you want to go fishing – you have a blaze – for cooking- there is wood to burn-and you have humo(smoke ) and you have a pit to do all that

  24. I wonder if the darn box is found if canyon down and home of brown could be a park. Alot of people have devoted time to searching for this brown guy. I’m certain forrest’s brown must be next a national park but isn’t one yet.

  25. @poisonivy
    In this comment I am narrowly addressing just this ATF, where we may have some differences:
    Mr. Fenn,
    You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is,
    “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
    No I don’t madam, sorry. f

    As I basically said, I take this to mean that there are many options hinted in the book (for HoB, etc) but there is nothing telling which of them is the correct one, **if any**.

    Forrest is only answering “No I don’t madam, sorry”
    to the specific question “do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above”
    where “all of the above” refers to the options that are “hinted at in the book”.

    So, in summary, he is accepting that there are many options hinted at in the book, but he also saying that the book will not tell you which of the many options is/are correct.

    I am in no way commenting on the validity or usefulness of anything in the book, but just on the specific ATF you referenced and what it means to me.

    I’ll explain further, in a separate comment, why I think you need a geographical, named, HoB on a map before you leave home.

    mBG

    • That is interesting if you know how to read the poem it tells you how to do it. “Put in below the home of Brown.” you can: put in, below the, home of, Brown or put in below, the home of Brown. this is a three part clue, as so what is the clue is it the put in or home or Brown and it set up as mirrored look at it as Brown, home, put in below. the fenny thing about this is WWWH if you have correct tells you what it is. and as to the book telling you the correct one I don’t think it has the correct one in it.
      but J. H. Sharp does, the key is no man made structure, hum what is a home with no man made structure? hint in the book to HOB: the summers off, we spent are summers camping, one summer when we where camping, ect. J. H. Sharp painted Indain’s winter camps and summer camps. home with out a man made structure Indain camp site. ok we got home now what is Brown? and put in below? and which one is the clue we’re looking for?

      • Richard,

        It seems we only have 3 option for hoB in the attempt to identify what it could refer to.
        ~If WWsH is known on a map and/or being on site, from this point on we can discover hoB…
        ~IF the book, in a subtle way, give thought to it an idea. {example; I’m not sure if fenn ever called a “Griz” a [term he used in the book] by the term “Brown Bear” in the book… is the lack of, helpful? IDK}
        ~The other option is “home” however, home also implies a place of habitation. This give a variety of ideas. A place in which someone/’something’ habits. A place where someone or something is located [regionally]… a country for example. In both those cases the areas can be small or huge. But in keeping with the “idea” hoB should lead us to the chest… it would seem the reference is small, maybe?. Yet, like you implied we would need to know what “Brown” is as well to understand what home might reference.

        I think there could be a 4th option because of Brown being deliberately capitalized. It may represent a ‘title’ of something vs. ‘just’ a place, and still be both. Example; the difference between “king” and “King” or eagle vs. Eagle, idea.
        Should it represent something in the idea of title, we would need to know what it could represent for a geographical location, related to home as a habitation.

        One Idea is, Canada’s national animal the brown beaver. Canada [removed] was supposed to be a “clue” in the tftw book, right? A book who’s “title” is small caps. LOL call them subtle hints if ya like, but in this idea it kinda point to understanding what “I give you title to the gold” [hint?]~ Brown as a title because it’s deliberately capitalized for a reason

        The idea kinda makes sense when looking at the poem in the same manner of geographical places…
        “No place for the meek” ~ USA? home of the brave?
        “No place for the meek” ~ The back bone of the RM’s? or the CDT. “in the mountains N. of SF”
        Wood is know as ‘being in the saddle’ which can relate to saddle as a mountain passage. “Brave [USA side] of a mountain passage, below where the brown beaver is held as a nation’s symbol ~ title for-?- below the home of Brown?
        The idea might be difficult to bring about from reading the poem in this manner, but it certainly not impossible to conclude. {LOL depending on how you want to read the poem as}

        Here’s the question; If any of the above is possible… could the first clue be just as large [ geographically ] But only brought to a singular location when most of the clues are studied in this manner? Knowledge of geography?

        **There are many WWsH in the RM’s and nearly all are N. of SF…. could WWsH depict the watershed of the RM’s, and learned of by geography of the area, **in combination of the clues,** that places a search within arms reach of where they want to be at?

        In the explanation above a person would be on the CDT, below Canada which might give the idea of what “Just Heavy Loads an Water High may represent? Waterton lake-?- WWsH, out of the many? A Lake? So, WWsH relates to the CD and a lake on the CD, for a conclusion of what and where WWsH. hoB now brings you to the correct one, line of thinking.

        Fenn said we can’t go looking for later clues… but he never said we shouldn’t understand what they are about. He tells us to read the poem over and over and study it, and we need to “learn” WWsH. We’ll if all the information to find the chest is in the poem… shouldn’t we utilize all the clues and entire poem to learn where WWsH is and what it references???

        The questions now are… does hoB [and other clue’s references], in any manner, assist with “learning the first clue”?
        Or are we just left with manufacturing ideas for WWsH? [be it a lake, waterfall, hot spring, geyser, merging rivers, snow cap peaks, glaciers, warm as a color like; Yellowstone lake, or some bizarre shape of a fish on a map, tears, an unscrambled name of a watery place, a bridge over troubled waters, etc etc. and hopefully discover hoB [and other clues] after?

        We are supposed to follow the clues in the order they are presented, but don’t we need the entire poem to relay what anything might be, before we can follow anything?
        IMO, things not “deliberately place” is the same as “very subtle”… they are of help when the reader is thinking the right thoughts. And I’m full circle that there is an illusion in the poem… mainly because readers do one of two things… a desire to over simplify or over complicated by unknowns.
        So, do we only seek the answer to one clue at a time starting with the first… or does the poem actually have “all the information”?

        • Seeker what if Home of Brown was not the home that the Beaver built, but the Creek where he builds his home and paddles around, ie a Beaver Creek, and what if the water that fills it flows from a Basin where more tears metaphorically are shed over than any thing else by people on planet earth, call it a Spiritual Place, a Basin in Spanish, or can you say Cruces? A Wilderness Basin named for? Sc Book 237, I rest my case.

          TT

          • Get on Google Earth and type “Cruces Wilderness Basin”
            what is that funny looking animal just above it formed by the Rail Road Tracks entering the tunnel at Garfiled Memorial, is that a Buffalo, as big as a Mt Rushmore image? See the border at 36.98 degrees by 106.3000.
            TT

          • What is ff favorite animal Ardi? Bison or a Buffalo? Cynthia caught the Beaver by the tale in SC Book video see it on her site, Education of Ardi is an eye opener and removes camouflage that surrounds a beaver mound and its home, the creek.

            TT

          • TT,
            A lot of your WhatIfs don’t work for me personally.
            Knowing Spanish does tell me the poem is in plain English.
            I never heard of Brown anything implying Bison, nor do I consider anything made made related to any clue… Including train rails or telephone poles or tunnels or Molly Brown’s home etc.

            But as I attempted to explain, the poem talks about “title” to the gold and how it maybe a consideration for a clue that is represented by a title for Brown being capitalize… That help with a geography location.
            To clarify… Brown, in this case, represents a possible location when all the clues form in the same location…

            That path will not be direct…. Certainty of the location before hand… Line of thinking.
            How do we learn of where and what the first clues is… In the poem or external from the poem?

          • To further the Brown = chest theory, we can link things in the poem to the treasure being Brown. We have “treasures bold” which one could say the B in brown is bold because it is capitalized. Brown is capitalized so it can be linked to title. Title two the gold. Two things here that link the capital letter in Brown to the treasure chest. Again this all speculation, but I could see how it can play out.

        • Seeker, you asked:
          “The questions now are… does hoB [and other clue’s references], in any manner, assist with “learning the first clue”?”

          It is my opinion that the first, and to some degree the fifth stanza, helps with the first clue.

          You also said “But as I attempted to explain, the poem talks about “title” to the gold and how it maybe a consideration for a clue that is represented by a title for Brown being capitalize… That help with a geography location.
          To clarify… Brown, in this case, represents a possible location when all the clues form in the same location…”

          To me this sounds similar the chest being Brown theory. All of the clues pointing to the home of Brown? Of course there is nothing to indicate that he did, but if FF decided to name the chest Brown, because of it’s color, then this could hold true. Not saying I buy this but just a thought.

      • seeker your right WWWH is every thing with out that you have nothing. WWWH does tell you the story or gives you the base story put with ff quotes and stories and fillin the blank spots with what ifs you start finding little things that set ff to it till you find Forrest Fenn secret out then you have WWWH. in all that it give you little hits to the rest of the clues.

    • what if HOB is the hint to what put in below is the land mark we need on the map?

  26. For those who might consider the Brown = Brown Trout argument, I came across an interesting post on a Pennsylvania fly fishing forum. Interestingly, the topic of discussion was cold-water vs warm-water. Since “Where Warm Waters Halt” is somehow connected (via “Canyon”) to a place “below the Home of Brown”, if brown does refer to brown trout, then the relevance of water temperature needs to be understood. I think it is also relevant that fly fishing guides (FF and his father) would know this in order to be proficient in their capacity as guides.

    Here is the post from 2010: (http://www.paflyfish.com/forums/Open-Forums/Conservation/Cold-Water-Streams-vs-Warm-Water-Streams/6,16118.html)

    Practically speaking, “coldwater fish” consist of trout, salmon, whitefish, and grayling- all of which prefer water temperatures below 70 degrees.

    Brown trout and rainbow trout can tolerate water up to the low-mid 70s, but it isn’t good for them.

    Brookies really want temps below 65 degrees F. And 68 is about the limit for them. Some sources say 70, but I’ve never known of a wild brookie stream that ran that warm, even on the hottest day of the summer.

    “Warmwater fish” can tolerate cool water temperatures, but they prefer habitat conditions with water temperatures between 70 and 80 degrees during their prime growing season, in the spring and summer. (Stream water rarely gets much over 80 degrees, and most warmwater game fish prefer temperatures slightly cooler- more like 72-75 degrees.)

    Therefore, a cold water stream habitat typically remains below 70 degrees year round.

    A warm water stream habitat typically runs between 70 and 80 degrees in the late spring and summer.

    A stream like Penn’s Creek above Weikert is considered a cold water habitat even though the average water temperature often rises above 70 degrees in the summer, because it has enough stream tributaries and springs contributing water at colder temperatures to allow coldwater fish to hold over and survive. But almost all anglers decline to fish Penn’s in the heat of July and August, because the temperatures are typically too marginal for trout to survive the strain of being caught.

    The biggest reason for the difference between coldwater and warmwater fish species is that the coldwater species require more dissolved oxygen in the water, and colder water retains more dissolved oxygen than warm water. Trout and salmon prefer a mix of around 10 parts oxygen to a million parts water. Warmwater fish are fine with 5 ppm (parts per million) or even a bit less.

    Oxygen “dissolves” in water from the air above the surface- which is why trout often like to hold in plunge pools and pocket water, because fast currents like that pull air bubbles into the water and help to dissolve more oxygen. But bubbling rapids alone aren’t enough to support trout- the water temps have to stay low enough that the water can store enough oxygen to keep the levels around 10ppm. Trout start to die off below around 5ppm DO, that’s about the bare minimum for survival for them. They’re basically gasping for breath at that point. A heat-stressed trout in summer usually settles low in the stream without moving much of anything except for it’s gills, which fan in and out as if it’s panting for breath. Which is pretty much what’s happening.

    This is one reason why anglers like to carry stream thermometers.

    Thermometers can also tell when the best feeding and insect hatching temps are. Trout are usually most active in water between 50 and 65 degrees. 55-60 degrees F is about perfect. Smallmouth bass seem to like it best right around 70-75 degrees F.”

    I found this interesting as it can help to identify what locations might truly be a Home of Brown (trout), and which might be just a guess.

    – Lori

    • Lori, you are doing a good job of understanding some important fundamentals in the search, I commend you for it. I do not know if you have seen the video from Cynthia regarding SC Book 246, a childrens book written by Forrest for his Great Grand daughter, Ardi. Some interesting thought come out when the subject of a beaver is addressed, see the video on Cynthia’s site and think Brown Beaver might mean a home, like a Beaver Creek maybe? Now find a basin that drains into a comfortable little Beaver Creek that has a Spanish Spiritual message and you might think again about BROWN TROUT. I know there is a least two, but only one has a put in that saves you from a long walk uphill in either direction.

      TT

      • Thanks TT,

        I have not looked at any of the Scrapbooks, Vignettes, etc.
        I am a bit of a purist and trying to stick with using TTOTC, the poem, and mapping tools only to start with. Everything else is a lot of noise. I am not saying it has no value and is certainly entertaining, inspirational, and even educational. But for me, it is a distraction.

        Now that I have my first solve ready for BOTG, I do use information from interviews if they are direct quotes from FF to either confirm or deny any clues I may think I have uncovered.

        From what I have seen on various blogs, some of the blog writers/managers (as opposed to subscribers), are equally clueless and, in some cases, spreading misleading or incorrect information. So “journalists” have very little credibility with me. I only pay attention to how FF answers their questions.

        I am here because Dal is quite good at helping us separate fact from fiction. Jenny Kile’s website at Mysterious Writings has a nice layout for finding direct FF quotes that are not on TarryScant.com, but sometimes I wonder about the questions she asks. And Toby? OMG. Don’t get me started.

        Anyway, this was longer than intended, but sort of explains my method.

        -Lori

        • Lori, I agree with you that most of the clues are probably just a distraction. But I think you have to do the very thing Forrest said not to do. You have to find the blaze first. And I think I may have found it. The blaze is in the poem itself. He gives a big hint about it in the very first line “As I Have gone alone in there” So I think the double f’s are the blaze. When he used to do Q & A’s, someone asked him if the blaze was a single object and he replied simply, “In a word – Yes.” And I think the blaze leads you to they keyword, which I think is “will”. And then that led me to a town in Wyoming called Willwood. The word effort and will can mean the same thing. Worth the cold (as in sick), W[ill] has the word ill in it. And then brave and in the wood gives you the rest of it. If it’s where I think it is, I don’t know how in the world he put it there without being seen because it seems like kind of a tourist location.

  27. Wonder if Forrest had said “put in below the home of ….Green or Black or Red or “Purple” – would it have made a difference?

  28. SC Book 246 holds the truth, what is truth, you say? In the eyes of a child, we find the Key: https://vimeo.com/381563533 carefully listen, from a child’s point of view, at 5 min and 10 seconds, we can now understand Home of Brown. TT

  29. SC Book 238 “After Fawn died in childbirth, Paul moved to Rimrock in the Verde Valley of Arizona. His ranch house was on Beaver Creek and when the water was up, a car couldn’t cross it. So Paul would come get you in his tractor.” Coincidence? Maybe.

    • I’m curious as to your thoughts, wwwamericana. There have been stories of Mr. Fenn mentioning backing up in a vehicle in a parking lot. Seems the situation put him in a tight/close situation. There’s a scrapbook about owning some kind of animal, rattlesnakes, he driving and turning around when he saw the animals drove the hands up a tree and was pleased (paraphrasing).

      • Sorry PDenver, just saw this post of yours.
        I was thinking about it as returning the way you came or as in something being behind you. Crazy as it sounds, I also believe it is put in above the HOB. Lots of stumbling blocks in my window but to me they spell out a possible solve. I know……you are thinking “what in the blue blazes is that silly frog talking about.”

        • Hello wwwamericana. I’m curious why you feel it is put in above the HOB when the poem states below.

          • I can’t speak for Americana but a previous interpretation for me involved the Hob being a fishing hole. This hole was located on a body of water that flowed south to north. So while the actual point on the map was north of hob, it was in fact downstream from its location. This logic would apply regardless of talking about the act of placing the chest in its resting place or talking about locating a boat launch.

          • And below, well below other features. I didn’t check depth of said hole, but found it looks like it could swallow a car. I postulate it might be lower spot of entire area although to back that up id have to do a whole lot of surveying.

          • PD – If a house or a rock is sitting on a slope, facing downhill and you wanted to get to something on the backside of it or down below it, would you not be going up to get there?

            Or if the “thing” sits to the North, but what you are looking for is on the South side would that also not be considered “below” even if the south side slopes up?

  30. HoB – Agua Caliente Creek, San Jose, NM ; Note the Trestle Bridge there like the one he jumped off of in Temple, TX. That is his Alpha.

    • No such place as agua caliente creek in New Mexico. Try Agua Caliente Ditch. How can that be HoB, and how do you get 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe?

    • And sometimes you need to put that poem down, crank up some Van Halen with Bob and Tom and just rock it.

  31. Just taking another close look at my solve and why I believe that the 2nd Stanza is most likely referring to Brown trout.

    Begin it where warm water halts
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Put in below the home of Brown.

    This stanza clearly starts out by leading us directly to some type of water, so wouldn’t it seem logical that the remaining “clues” would follow that line of thinking? I understand that “put in” can be related to flying, and a few other references, but if we take the clues in context with the complete stanza, wouldn’t it make more sense if it was used as a “fishing” term? Which then, would logically lead us to Brown meaning Brown Trout. Kinda like following a theme.

    I do believe the fact that Brown is capitalized is telling us this is a proper noun of some sort and not meant to throw us off. So Brown Trout, Brown Bear, Joe Brown, Brown Mountain, etc. works. But not brown buffalo or brown water, etc. BUT, when you add in the definition of home, things get narrowed down even more.

    HOME noun
    1. the place where one lives permanently, especially as a member of a family or household.
    2. a place where something flourishes, is most typically found, or from which it originates.

    Looking at the definition of home, I don’t see how a mountain, stream, or place named Brown really works. I don’t see those examples as fitting either one of those definitions. I mean how does a Mountain flourish?

    All the above is just IMO and I’m not saying I’m right. Just the way I see things. For now. LOL

    • Hi Geysergirl: except brown trout isn’t capitalized any more than brown beaver or brown buffalo.

      • Zap – Your always on top of your game! LOL!

        Good point, although I have seen it written both lower case or capped. But I guess I mean Brown trout or bear is implied as a name where Brown buffalo is not. That’s just a description. Does that make sense? And maybe you make a good point and none of it is a valid thought.

        • Geysergirl;

          If I say, “Home of the Prairie dog.” I may choose to capitalize it as a way of bringing attention to it. It may not be grammatically correct, but it gets my point across. Forrest has said that he doesn’t much follow grammars rules. This might be an example. “home of Brown” could mean “Home of Buffalo ” – something he wanted to bring attention to. JMO – JDA

          • JDA – You may very well be right and I 100% agree with all your comments above. But ultimately, I ended up coming to the conclusion above as my “way to follow the poem” for what it’s worth. Of course I did say it is how I’m thinking for now. I could end up discovering something that brings me more in line with your points. Just not where I am right now. 🙂

    • And the opposite argument – If you capitalize Brown Trout, why not capitalize Brown Buffalo. How is one different than the other? – Not that I think that capitalizing either is correct, just asking how the two are different. JDA

      • JDA – As I stated above to Zap, because Brown, Rainbow, Brook trout are proper names where a brown buffalo is not. At least I don’t know of any species of buffalo being named “Brown.”

        • I appreciate the feedback from you guys. It really does help because we all get so “Tunnel visioned” with our thinking and solves that sometimes the obvious escapes us.

          • Hey, Geyser. Perhaps the blaze is in the poem itself. Read the very first line, As I have gone alone in there. What if the blaze is the double f’s in the word e[ff]ort. Remember when someone asked him if the blaze was a single thing, and he replied, In a word – Yes. I think the word “will” is the keyword. It leads you to a town in Wyoming.

      • JDA put the idea of HOBinto context with regards to the poem and Fenn. Remember he’s a avid fisherman. Is it more likely that the HOB is referring to something about brown trout as it is a buffalo or beaver.

        • Andrew I would disagree as to bison being plentiful in the Rockies. Only a few places outside of a bison rancher where you can see wild buffalo.

        • Interesting – I learned something!
          What we all have thot were buffalo are actually bison.
          This misnomer has be going on since the 1600’s.
          I guess those old nickels should be called Bison Head nickels instead of Buffalo Heads.
          Thanks for the Heads Up, TA

      • Brown Trout is a specific species of trout and is/can be capitalized. Brown Buffalo is only a color of buffalo but it capitalized here anyway :).

        mBG

        • Page #8 in TFTW tells us that Forrest does not use a capital B when writing out “brown trout”. He does capitalize Loch Leven on page #39, but that is because it is the region in Scotland that just happens to be the true “home” (place of origin) of the brown trout that were imported into our waters and are actually an invasive species (although delicious). Additionally, although Forrest is acutely aware that buffalo are actually *bison*, he refers to bison as “buffalo”. Pages 16 and 17 in TFTW is one of many examples of this.

          • Sally – I did notice Forrest did not Cap brown trout in TFTW. Is that a hint that Brown is not related to trout? Perhaps. But then again, with Forrest, who knows. He seems to make the rules up as he goes along. LOL!

          • Geysergirl..I will include this snippet from wikipedia that we’ve most likely all read dozens of times but “The first introductions (of brown trout) into the U.S. started in 1883 when Fred Mather, a New York pisciculturist and angler, under the authority of the U.S. Fish Commissioner, Spencer Baird, obtained brown trout eggs from a Baron Lucius von Behr, president of the German Fishing Society [de]. The von Behr brown trout came from both mountain streams and large lakes in the Black Forest region of Baden-Württemberg.[8] ..”. The amusing part is that now we have *von Behr* and *Baird*. Bear, bare, bared…and if you take it far enough *brown*? Forrest apparently doesnt like to be seen naked (bare) (showers in his blue jeans)but did enjoy swimming in the buff…river bathing is best!!

          • Thanks, Sally, for pointing out that Forrest didn’t capitalize brown trout in TFTW. Fenn, Wikipedia & Enc. Britannica are good enough for me, though Forrest’s use trumps all.

            Obviously searchers who have solutions that require hoB to be a brown trout reference will not be deterred. But I think that people should maintain an honest tally of potential “conflicts” between their solutions and Forrest’s words. Conflicts like having a dam or reservoir as one of their clues, or even being nearby; structures involved with any of the clues; horseback riding or white-water rafting required; one-way hikes of over 2 hours required; “significant” elevation gain or loss; clue-derived vehicle parking locations that require 4WD and high-clearance to reach; treasure chest hiding locations that don’t explain the need to make two trips from the car; and so on.

    • You’re right on the money with the home of brown. It’s a deep pool where you’ll find it teaming with fish. Below the fishing hole you’ll find it gets shallow down stream and there you will “put it” or cross.

      • PS-

        FF was a pilot in the armed forces. Seems put in could just as easily refer to piloting a plane as to launching a boat. And I am sure he has done more flying than fishing in his lifetime. All IMO.

        -Ann

        • I doubt he’s done more flying than fishing but either way at the time he hid the treasure he was no longer flying or even able to fly. Which is exactly why he let it be known he drove to the location.

    • Geysergirl,

      There is no permanence to Brown trout living in a particular body of water. And since FF believes it may take upwards of 1,000 years for the chest to be found, I believe the clues must pint to firmer and more permanent namesakes. Otherwise should the river dry up or the trout population no longer be associated with that particular body of water, it’s hard to imagine the HOB reference would still hold. Furthermore, I believe there should be some discussion on which is the best map to use. I say this because not every map has the same named places on it. So how are people from around the world to decide which map to use and how far would it lead them as far as the poem is concerned? Those last thoughts are for all. All IMO.

      -Ann

      • Agree that there is “no permanence” to where brown trout (or any other fish) live; fish move around. The clue could not possibly last a hundred years, much less a thousand.

        Further, how would a non-fisherman know in which stream or river or lake brown trout live, or the water temperature trout require; sounds like specialized knowledge to me, and would therefore put non-fishermen at a disadvantage in the treasure hunt.

        Through the years, HOB correlated to brown trout has become a stale cliché; unimaginative in the extreme, in my opinion.

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ken – Again, I respect a lot of your thoughts here and appreciate the feedback.

          I think I commented on your first statement in my response to Ann. As far as knowing anything about Brown trout being specialized knowledge, define specialized knowledge. How do we decipher WWWH? Don’t we need to do “some” research to try and come to a respectable conclusion? Does that mean that any research becomes “specialized knowledge?”

          But then again, as I always say, you may be right. 🙂

          • Because “specialized”, like so many other words, is quite
            subjective, the winning solve probably will rely on “fuzzy
            logic”. As always, IMO.

      • Ann – You are correct. There is no permanence to Brown trout living in a particular body of water. But is there really any true permanence to all the other clues in the poem? For example, the first most important clue, WWWH. In a thousand years, will that still be there or at best, in it’s original state? Maybe, maybe not. Forrest did say the longer this goes, the more difficult it will become. Heck, if Brown camp was changed to Baker’s hole, any other name of places could change as well. And if names change over the years, future searchers would have to do a little digging (history…even though Forrest says no need for that to decipher the poem to try and solve this thing, in the very distant future, I’m not so sure that statement will still hold) IMO

        I respect your thoughts here on HOD, and I do agree you make good, solid points that I will need to ponder over. But I don’t think it puts a complete kibosh on this POSSIBILITY of HOB. At least not until I find something better! LOL!

        • Geysergirl,

          Thank you for your thoughts. I do not mean to discourage anyone from their own interpretations. It is my hope to help find the chest. I think Ken from Texas said something about brown trout being specific knowledge to fishers. I would agree. In the same way that “put in” is believed by some to refer to a boat launch, brown trout and their whereabouts is not common knowledge. Certainly if I were a child or a foreigner I would not immediately think brown trout or boat launch. I WOULD ask WHO is Brown? Is it possible Brown is not a who? Sure. But kids learn capitalization rules and in this instance I would argue it refers to a proper noun. And by proper, I mean to suggest that the capitalization is required and not optional. Brown trout does not require capitalization. I have further thoughts on what sort of connection I believe Brown has to the overall scheme of the Chase but I will not divulge that information at this time. (For the sake of those with whom I have been discussing the matter in greater depth.) For now, I only wish to suggest others consider alternate possibilities than brown trout. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • Ann – Unless someones comments are blatantly rude, I do not take offense to any thoughts nor do I discount them. It would be to my disadvantage to not remain flexible enough to see the errors of my ways. Now that said, I will still investigate my HOB solve if for no other reason but to perhaps start thinking in another direction. It is why we are here…to share our speculations on possible solves. And until the chest is found, that’s all it is, speculation.

            There are several searchers whose thoughts I respect, you included. I do not always agree, but the thoughts are tucked away for when my speculation takes a big dive south! LOL!

    • Something to consider.
      In one of the TFTW stories (I believe “My prehistoric friend”) Forrest uses this language to describe one of his acquaintances:
      “he was of good German stock”
      This description could easily make one think of Brown trout… couldn’t it?

  32. I think that the 2nd stanza is just about wwwh and hob- begin it wwwh and take it in ( turn ) at bottom of the canyon ( canyon down ) from there its not far, but to far to walk, from the bottom of the canyon up to hob ( not in elevation , but direction )coming from below hob

  33. ARRRRRRRGH !!!
    Re: brown or Brown trout as HOB
    Within the designated “search” area of
    mountains and associated piedmont,
    & unless they have been specifically planted by a state’s DOW, it is very hard to find waters (not hot of course), that are not or could not sustain Browns of either main variety. (German or Loch Leven)..
    OF all the tryouts (salmon id’s or chars),
    Brownies are by far the most tolerant of
    Water conditions that would preclude other tryouts except maybe for stocker bows. They exist above 10,000 ft, and below 5,090 ft. in ice cold crystal clear water to almost tepid irrigation sized “ditches”.
    In REF. TO brown trout, I just cannot fathom that they would be specific to HOB

  34. https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/21/scrapbook-two_hundred-thirty-eight/ Forrest did capitalize Beaver Creek in this SC Book, as I said ff was saying that an unintended clue was in the removal of “Canada” in the Too Far Book map, does anyone think that a Canadain would capitalize their National Animal, THE BROWN BEAVER?

    Ardi, some times it pays to see things from a kids perspective, does a beaver paddle up his home creek? Do not mess with his poem, sometimes things get caps to emphasize a point, that when a house is built, it is not the structure that is home, it could be where that home is and how he accesses it from WWWH. PS someone is deleting me posts…

    TT

  35. This question is for Lisa, and any others that believe HoB has to do with brown trout, especially where they spawn. How do you get around the specialized knowledge quote:

    No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    What average person will know where brown trout spawn with just the book? I’ve read the book, and it has been a while, but I do not remember a mention of brown trout spawning in the Madison.

    • Aaron,

      Following your line of thought here… Since it is not specifically mentioned in the book (TTOTC):
      Would you also say that knowing where Mr. Brown (Joe Brown or Gary Brown) lived is also specialized knowledge? Or would some research be required?
      Since FF admits he looked up every noun in the poem, is knowing the definitions specialized knowledge? Or is using a dictionary permissible?

      My point is that not one of us lived Forrest Fenn’s life, and therefore do not share his experience and education. Yet, that is how we must decipher the clues. If FF used a dictionary to construct the poem, it is not unreasonable to use one to decrypt it. Those who are not fishermen will need to acquaint themselves with basic knowledge associated with fishing.

      FF was a fighter pilot and so his training and experience will influence how his thought processes work. We do not need to become licensed pilots, but becoming acquainted with aeronautical terms could be helpful.

      Another example: in TTOTC, when FF mentions he was flying his plane and “climbed”, we understand that his plane gained altitude, not that he started walking up somewhere. Elsewhere, he uses common terms like “roll”, “land” and “drop” and in the context, we understand what is meant, even though we may not be pilots ourselves.

      I don’t think anyone should rule out a possible clue just because they themselves are not knowledgable in that subject. See the clues from FF’s point of view.

      Just something to consider.

      – Lori

      • Yes Lori, I do believe that knowing about a person named Brown could be considered specialized knowledge. However, if that person ends up referring to something that a searcher could locate on a map, or BOTG then I would say it is fair game.

        Average people do not know about pilot and fishing terms. Can they look them up? Sure, though everything I hear from FF makes me think that we won’t need to do that. Show the poem to a kid? Would a kid start looking up brown trout, and where they spawn? I doubt it.

        My thoughts are that if the poem tells you to do it then you should. It doesn’t tell me that though.

    • Aaron – My home of Brown for my Baker’S Hole Solve is actually that Big Brown trout in the landscape, across from one of Forrest’s favorite fishing holes: Barns Hole #1. Can you or anyone else tell me if that area and another hole I think he said he loves at Big Bend on the Madison River is mentioned in TTOTC book?

      I don’t have any of the books. Great point, though!

      I also agree that doing research about fly fishing for Browns and Rainbows in the West Yellowstone area is not specialized knowledge. Didn’t Forrest tell us in TTOTC to find the end of his rainbow and the treasure, by following the clues in the Poem? FYI that the suspicious interpretive sign at Baker’S Hole includes info. about Rainbows spawning there in Spring.

  36. Along the same lines, if you google “place names CO”, there are greater then 30 “Beaver Creeks”. This would likely hold true for the other states in play as well. The early folks naming geographic features weren’t terribly original or thoughtful IMO.

    • Sally – Are you saying that people who use place names for their solves are not thoughtful or original? I am not offended! Just trying to see if that was your point. Also, if this is your point, are you referring to the home of Brown clue only or all nine clues. One more – Can you give me an example of your thinking (not one of your solved clues but just a sample of your thinking). I’m interested to see what you consider to be original and thoughtful, outside the realm of place names. Thanks.

      • Sally I apologize. I think I completely misunderstood your comment. Please ignore the previous post. You meant that the same name was used over and over again when places were given their names. Duh. I just figured it out several hours later.

  37. Hi All
    You all think HOB is hard to decipher can’t wait till you get to
    water high,now that’s a real head scratcher.Clint

  38. Silly as this might sound, why couldn’t home of Brown just refer to a mountain stream.
    Brown trout live in streams all thru the Rockies.
    Sooooo, he is simply giving an instruction.
    The stream is close – now use some imagination.
    www

  39. No problem Warlock – you got my meaning the second time! I think that HOB is likely to be far more original than Brown Mountain or Beaver Creek; my personal opinion think is that HOB is a quite possibly a metaphor. Probably not a synonym (again, too easy). Which is why we have to solve for WWWH first. We may be able to find HOB on a map but it isn’t going to stick out like a sore thumb. What we do know is that we probably can’t reverse engineer HOB to WWWH. But who really knows?

    • Sally Colorado,

      I reverse engineered from Hob to wwwh. Doesn’t mean anything as I don’t have the treasure, we will see, just like everyone else this spring and summer. I just found hoB easier to work with than wwwh.

  40. Andrew –
    I like your reference to “fuzzy logic” above. This problem solving method has four components. One of those is “rules”. Success requires that the searcher learns the “rules” and applies them. You need to figure out what Fenn’s rules are … say by trial and error. If you can do that, it’s just a matter of applying those rules and putting in enough time, logical thinking, hard work, imagination, (bla, bla bla) to unravel the mystery, IMO.

    On another note, I was in a rock band when I was a kid. I played an electric guitar. I still remember using the latest electronics, a “fuzz box”. Maybe that could work too in the Chase. 🙂

    • You sound a bit fuzzy, but I think I hear ya.
      I’m “going for the gold” as they say.

    • Brian – I think that a large land formation of a deer is home of brown just like the rest of the clues are land formations of one kind or another, just like none of the clues, are man made , there has to be some kind of clue to go by. that is just my opinion

      • I started by warm waters halt and where the waters go(which is later in poem) then the keyword. Then I just did botg, I don’t like canasta and don’t play games much.

  41. You’ve also got Brown Drake Mayflies. I’m not really an avid fisher. But from what I understand, these nymphs spring up out of the ground at certain times of the year in certain locations along river banks and creeks. I think fly fishers call them hatches. Well, apparently these hatches attract the trout in these locations in mass. So fisherman will go to these hatches when they occur to make trout fishing much easier. I’m not really thinking along these lines anymore, but maybe it will help someone else with their solve. Personally, I’m not a big fan of bugs. So I’d stay as far away from them as possible. LOL

      • Yeah, it’s possible. Maybe you could research various hatches around the Madison, Firehole, and maybe the Gibbon Rivers. I’m not sure how much of that info would be online though because I think the anglers like to keep them secret so they can have the spot to themselves.

  42. when you start a new sentence you start with a capital letter.and sense wwwh is where you start the hunt for the treasure chest,all this clue tells you where to begin and take it in your way to hob——– the capital B on brown, tells you that , thats where you start , with the clues that lead you to the treasure chest , at hob, the capital B tells me this is where the clues begin imo

  43. if you want to know what waters high and home of brown are , its my opinion, that ff is giving us a clue on what they are. I cant remember whats the number of the scrap book, but he is sitting down with a large pot of pottery on his lap. the pot if, filled with water, would be waters high. the picture on the pot, of a deer, would be home of brown. its my opinion that waters high and home of brown, are in the same place as the picture on the pot. and of course its just my opinion—– frank

  44. Just a thought , The bronze chest is in a spot that it will remain until somebody finds it , there for it is at its HOME , it is also Brown in color . I know I know , we don`t know where it is , but we have to put in below IT . IMO

  45. I was doing a search for an unrelated quote and stumbled across a quote that I had not seen before. It is from 2015, but (according to search results) there appears to be no mention of it except the original post. Can anyone confirm or refute this quote? Maybe some of our old timers remember this, or a discussion about it?

    “Brown trout have nothing to do with home of Brown” (ChaseChat – Quoting an email from Fenn – July 11, 2015) (Update: I have confirmed this with Fenn myself)
    https://bloggedinthewoods.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/forrest-fenn-notes/

    Lori

        • Hi Lori!!!!

          I wish FF had said whether or not Brown has anything to do with trout in that same exchange! Do you feel his response speaks to that as well? You know I already have an inkling of your thoughts there, so you don’t have to answer here. 🙂

          -Ann

          • I think that would be giving away a big clue and FF wouldn’t do that. Notice that he does not say it does or it does not. He only says that he did not say that.

            It is similar to him not saying the chest is buried and he hasn’t said it is not. He says he doesn’t want to give that as a clue. Or when he said he is not prepared to say the chest is not in water. Still lots of room for interpretation, but for me, it is as clear as mud. 🙂

            Lori

  46. I was just looking at the 1912 gallatin county map linked by Dal in
    https://dalneitzel.com/2017/10/29/grayling_dal/.
    I don’t know when the sections were surveyed, but they are very consistent with todays USGS. if you look at section 9 and 10 on the Madison (on the 1912 map) you will see Brown’s camp at the far east of section 10. This is a different spot than today’s Baker’s Hole Campground (which is in Section 15, about 0.7 miles south). To put in below (downstream from) the HoB on that 1912 map you would put in awfully close to where the Madison crosses the highway. Just wanted to say that Brown’s Camp and the Baker’s Hole Campground don’t seem to be the same place, exactly.

    Just Sayin’

    mBG

    • mBG,

      Good observation. And thanks for pointing out the location of the camp. I’ve had the darnedest time reading that map and trying to find the camp. It probably didn’t help that every time I try and dl it and save it gets all fuzzy. But I was able to find it on the site. Not sure what knowing where the camp is helps me any since this really hasn’t been an area of interest for me except for FF’s story. But it puts a potential HOB in the area. Guess maybe I’ll have to see about a WWWH. Thanks again. Definitely two different places on the map.

      -Ann

    • meBigGuy – Thanks for the info.! Can’t see that detail on the tiny little screen of my Moto G phone. Both Dal and I took pics, right where the Madison River goes under Hwy 191 right there. A Jeep Road heads from there into the Baker’s Hole Campground, along the highway, from that point. My friend explored back in there on an early Spring trip in 2019.

      Here is another ‘good map’:

      https://dcc.newberry.org/items/map-of-the-yellowstone-national-park-compiled-from-different-official-explorations-and-our-personal-survey-1882

      Look at ‘Madison L.’ at the source of the Firehole River. That’s Madison Lake. Just downstream is a ‘Bear Park’. Uhhhhh, is THAT the home of Brown? So, then, is Madison Lake, up high, near the Continental Divide, at the top of the Madison Basin, another possible WWWH???

      Were the Brown bears all hanging out in that ‘Bear Park’ in 1882???

  47. I’ve seen solves for Colorado using the unsinkable “Molly Brown” residences as HOB.

    A side note….Molly also at one time resided in Hecla Montana.

  48. I know this quote has been discussed a lot, however, I have a slightly different spin to offer.

    LONDON: In the poem, which you say has these nine clues, there are references to water, there is a reference to Brown’s house. Who’s Brown?

    FENN: Well, that’s for you to find. If I told you that, you’d go right to the chest.

    “go RIGHT to the chest”. Is that ‘right’ as in go directly to the chest? OR, is ‘right’ in terms of direction? That is, turn right at hoB? OR, since Mr. F likes twins, does his response imply both?

    Pinatubocharlie

    • Hi Pinatubocharlie,
      it’s really “different spin” to re-think old quote.
      The hoB is third clue (IMO) and an answer for question “who’s Brown” will allow searcher to “go directly to the chest”. Details about Brown are so critical (IMO) that even one word can reveal too much.
      I know that many searchers can say same about their “hoB” 🙂 Especially before 2020 season start. Sometimes after visiting their “hoB” they publish their solutions. And after reading many of us are saying: “my hoB is much better and more close to reality” 🙂
      After the chase is over Dal can create last topic on his website “My home of Brown contest” where all searchers send short description of their hoB. Of course, TC finder will get first place (if he ever reveal his solution).

  49. OS2 – you once wrote here on color theory. A few others have suggested for it or argued against it, but as far as they have disclosed, they never really openly developed it. This thought currently has my attention.

    https://dalneitzel.com/2017/04/02/home-of-brown-3/#comment-272705

    First, there is an English word, “farb”, which is said to mean “far be it from me” or “far below”, as well as a derogatory word for Civil War re-enactors (fakes). The word for “color” in German is “Farbe”. “Die Farbe” is the correct German gender. Coincidentally, Forrest writes about “dying” his hair early on p6, and about Henry Farny (having a forger, “Farby”, that sold his fakes) in SB181.

    Forrest spends some words on blues (ex: “lapis lazuli”), reds (“tea”), and yellows (that one park), the combination of which makes brown. He also spends some words on purples (“purple heart”), oranges (“Orange Crush”), and greens, all complimentary colors that combine two primary colors, missing the third that when added makes brown (“purple and yellow flowers”). Elsewhere, he describes “warm” colors, and synonym shades of brown, like “beaver” or “sandy”, and is fond of pointing out “full color” ads. It feels as though he wants us to look at color theory (“end of my rainbow”).

    He uses the British spelling of “grey” to describe his hair, spelled this way only once on p6 in TTOTC. He then describes a “gray-haired lady, and “gray-gowned patience”, having “gray”, the US spelling, then appear twice upon a while. Some interesting color synonyms or shades of “gray” / “grey” include “Gainsboro” (like the hat contests here on dalneitzel.com), “Davy” (like the Crockett hat he wears in a photo), Spanish gray (“gris”, like the word “griz” he is fond of sharing), “silver” (the famous bracelet, and the name of a pony in a photo on p39), as well as “ash”, “nickel”, “cadet”, and “jet” (no explanation needed).

    Color wheels were interesting, but incomplete. Color spheres… now we’re talking some math. Phillip Otto Runge (“Runge” means “post”, the place to tie Bessie’s tail) seems to have been one of the first to plot a color spectrum onto a sphere, called “Die Farbenkugel”, “the color sphere”. “Kugel” also means “bullet” because back then, those things were balls. Plotting grey / gray onto the Runge sphere puts us dead center, right in the middle, of the color sphere. Grey / gray would be its core. A few degrees or clicks outward into the sphere, we have the merging of the primaries into a “washer” shape of brown, an Einstein “ring”, a syzygy (“yoke”, “union”). Shades thereof closer to black or to white would generate a full sphere of varying “degrees” of brown. Have another look at Forrest’s “Red Ryder” post ( https://dalneitzel.com/tag/red-ryder/ ) and see if the colors don’t pop for you, too.

    Given the above, and if capitalizing “Brown” would make a difference, it would seem to me that “below the home of Brown” is Gray / Grey. Marrying this to a map and given Forrest’s intentional use of the British version to describe his white hair and dyeing, for me, would be “Greys River” in Wyoming.

    • OS2, I think the trickiest part is determining where to start. Forrest said the first clue was WWWH, but I think the previous line (riches new and old) helps you interpret the clue the way Forrest intended. New and old, they are opposites. And notice the way it’s worded. Why can’t it be “water halts” with the S at the end of halt. If it’s written that way, it implies that warm waters are stopping. But with the S at the end of waters, it implies that warm water won’t be found in the location. Do you see the difference? So in that context, in the poem, where do warm waters halt? (Hint: Remember the opposites.)

      • NoName… I think everyone agrees with you, determining the WWWH is the trickiest…. until they think they have identified it, then they think HOB is the trickiest. So far, no winners.

        And yes also to water with and without an S… tricky wording. Thats what FF needed for his 1000 year time frame. Who will be the lucky one meet him alone in there and ring his bell? Good luck. OS2

        • OS2, the WWWH line is telling you to start at a certain word in the poem. The new and old line gives you a hint on how to interpret the WWWH line. Try to imagine the poem as an actual place that you’re in, and you have to navigate it. So in the poem, what word would describe WWWH?

    • Another thing to note about the red-ryder post is that FF does not capitalize the type of bird medow lark, except at the start of a sentence. Might be worth noting for all of you that are considering hoB to have something to do with brown trout.

      • I think HoB only exists in Forrest’s imagination. Unless it only makes sense once you’re at the starting location. It seems like there are only 2 clues if you read the poem a certain way.

        • Noname6;

          I’m sorry, I don’t understand your post. How can it exist only in Forrest’s mind OR it only makes sense once you are at the starting location? I don’t follow your logic.

          Are you saying that you MIGHT be able to see hoB from the WWWsH spot, but that IF you do not see it, then it does not exist, and is only in Forrest’t imagination?

          IF you don’t see it from the WWWsH lacation, and it exists ONLY in Forrest’s imagination, how can you “Put in below the hoB”? If it is NOT a real thing, you could NEVER be able to “put in” below” it – therefore, could NEVER solve the poem – Right?

          Forrest has said that it is difficult, but NOT impossible – therefore you MUST be able to “put in below the hoB” – therefore, it MUST be a real thing, and NOT a figment of Forrest’s mind…. whether you can see it from the WWWsH location or not. Just simple logic. JMO – JDA

          • JDA…. thinking on your words, i thought HOB (re: NoNames post) might be a mirage…. I laughed, then thought, ah-ha, a shadow. Perhaps a deep distinctive crease in a mountain side. You know there is nothing there, but you see it. Like a cave…. a hole, a brown bag, a sack…. around nothing. A brown nothing.

            I made a reference recently on the Coronavirus site…quoting an author about a sound of nothing. These image tricks might be Fenn’s secret sauce.

          • Hey, JDA. Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and replying. Yeah, that’s what I meant about HOB. Like maybe it’s something so small, you have to be looking at to identify. Personally, I don’t think this is the case. I think the majority of the poem are not actual places. He put them in there to make people think it’s more difficult than it really is. Try to think of the clues as instructions rather than directions. If you read the poem a certain way, it appears as though there are only two clues. I’m pretty sure the line above WWWH is hinting on how you’re supposed to interpret WWWH. It’s really simple once you can figure out what WWWH is telling you. IMO

          • I should correct myself. I shouldn’t have said “not actual places” They may very well be. What I should have said is I think only 2 of them are helpful for finding the chest. Just because you call something a clue doesn’t necessarily mean it will be helpful.

          • NoName, I do believe hoB is something that you have to really be looking for to find. If the hoB that I am now using is correct then I would say you have to learn what it is, and this could take being on site for a bit, and understanding what IT is.

          • Noname 6;

            We all read the poem differently. For me, here is what I see.

            WWWsH – real thing
            Canyon Down – actual canyon
            NFBTFTW – a distance down the canyon
            hoB – an actual landmark
            MPFTM – an actual land feature
            TEIEDN – getting closer
            NPUYC – an actual creek (bed)
            JHL&WH – two actual land features
            Blaze – an actual thing
            LQDYQTS – an instruction
            BTSWMG – an instruction
            JTTCAGIP – an instruction
            SWISIMGG ALMTFATS – a direction or instruction
            TAIAK IDITANIW – a direction or instruction
            SHMAALG – an instruction
            YEWBWTC – an instruction
            IYABAITW IGYTTTG – Final Instruction

            ALL of the instructions are vital in finding Indulgence.
            You can not stop at the Blaze, you will not be able to find the EXACT spot without following all of the instructions or directions – JMO – JDA

          • Yeah, that could very well be the case, Aaron. I’m personally under the belief now that the clues should be followed like instructions rather than directions. I think the riches new and old line gives you a hint about how to interpret WWWH. If you read the poem a certain way, it appears as if there are only 2 clues, which would explain the little girl from India only being able to get to the second clue. Remember Forrest’s number one rule, “It doesn’t matter who you are. It only matters who they think you are.” If you apply that philosophy to the poem, it wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility for him to just add random vague descriptions to places that won’t help you find the chest. If I’m right about this solve, it’s really simple if you figure out one thing. If you ever do BOTG in Wyoming, give me a yell and I’ll show you what I mean.

          • Noname6;

            By saying that there are only two clues, you, in a sense, are saying that Forrest is not telling the truth, since Forrest has repeatedly said that there are NINE CLUES.

            I would think carefully before I said that Forrest was not telling the truth – you might want to reexamine your premise – JMO – JDA

          • JDA, I think he means only two clues that refer to locations, while the rest are instructions.

            NoName, I really only have two distinct locations with the rest more instructions as well, sort of. It is hard to explain really without giving to much away. I’ll be in Wyoming this summer if COVID doesn’t stop me from it.

          • JDA, I think lying is too strong a word. I look at it more like strategy. If he can make you believe the poem is really intricate while the real solution is fairly simple and subtly hidden in the poem, I think that’s a great strategy for hiding the chest. I’m not sure, but I think at one time, Forrest said no one’s even given him the clues in the correct order.

          • Hey JDA, what do you think he meant by the girl in India only being able to get 2 clues? There’s an abstract way to read it that will give you only 2 clues. Another thing I noticed is the whole story about when he hid it doesn’t add up. He’s said he worked on the poem 15 years, and he hid it around 2010. When he was diagnosed with cancer in the 80s, they told him he didn’t have long to live. So how could he have know back then that he would have 15 years to craft the poem? It really seems like he would have to do something quick and efficient with hiding the message in the poem.

    • light (as in sun light) color mixing is fully different than pigment color mixing, the primaries and second colors are different, so one would need to decide which to use in such a scene. Brown (along with all the colors) comes about in a completely different way, depending on if you are talking about mixing light or mixing pigment.

      but neither theory brings a “gray” color to mean brown, or brown to mean gray.

      for pigment, gray is mixing black pigment and white, brown is mixing of all the primary colors except black and white, in various shades and amounts to result in brown, where black and white can be mixed in but is not necessary.

      for light, gray is the absence of all the light primaries to some degree and in the same amount. Brown is a mixing of mostly red light and green light, then tuning the intensity.

      • I hope you don’t think I’m an idiot, but I think from an architectural point of view, below home is the ground, and if you Red line 8 you might be agreen
        Brown is a domain8ting word. Unless I got my wires crossed this brings the sentence full circle twice. I’m not trying to put anybody on here… justin You Know Who You Are.

    • Hi E.C. ….. Wow, a fun visit to one of my long ago posts. HOB is the most vague clue. I doubt the word Brown is the name of a person or place. I think it is some kind of indirect reference… a metaphor – symbol – condition – process, etc. I think the word Home is more likely a reference to a place…. but it too could be a complicated reference to an origin or a concept bigger than just a physical place. (maybe an intellectual place)

      I’ve always had this funny inkling that the poem refers to a personal history as well as a physical geography. I don’t know if the history is Fenn’s particularly, or a general pattern of all men or all cultures … like a river of time &/or a real river through time & space. I pretty much rely just on the book TTOTC. I dont have much faith SB’s or the other books written for the Chase audience. His books written for his own serious & scholarly interests expose him more I think. And now I’ve read so many things I never would have given a 2nd thought to. FF has been a curious motivator and teacher to me, I am thankful for it.

      Ill have to think more on your post. I only have one foot in this adventure. Best of luck to you. OS2

      • OS2 – home has a definition of “to focus attention on”, like “in tight focus”. So does “to center on”. When Forrest calls attention to himself being “in the middle”, such as in TTOTC or scrapbooks, do we not home in on his figure in the middle? Using Runge’s depiction of a color sphere, where the three primaries are at the equator, black and white at the N and S poles, extrapolating gradients in between, gray would be at the core, brown above it. To me, to “put in” would depict a river, “below the home of Brown” would be Greys River.

        • E.C. It first strikes me that if the word Home means focus-on or zoom-in, or main point of register (home base), etc. then it seems to be redundant to the directive, put-in-at. OS2

          • Ok, no worries from my side on how you want see it. For others who see it the same as I do, here is a fun supporting bonus.

            Page 95: “For the next month, while I was on leave, the flourish of activities related to homecoming and reuniting with family and friends put my jungle thoughts on hold, except for occasional flashes that insinuated something unfinished.”

            Here we find the word “put”, the words “on hold” (halted for a higher priority, where jungle thoughts are below), the word stem “home”, “reuniting” (like “blending” or “marrying” of colors), the synonym of “hint” (insinuated), and “unfinished” (see “greige”, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/greige). In other words, he spells it out for us.

            Time and time again he does this, combining the important words from the whole poem into a single sentence, a scrapbook, a paragraph, a page, a chapter…

          • E.C. I do see what you are saying, and admire your intense scrutiny of words in the poem matched to similar ones in book. But I think here, you are relying on coincidental verbiage. I feel no bloom of confidence arising. In the poem we inch-worm thru each word for hidden intent, but in the book, the word flow conveys the intended content. Granted, it’s tricky.

            I think the “something unfinished” is a reference to ff’s maturing thinking, to his impulse to re-evaluate his experiences. And there-in, is the home of wisdom, one confronts himself when faith conflicts with perceptions. (see Home as an intellectual place?)

            As for greige… well perhaps a color reference for aging, like ‘old as dirt’, like the grandmas that a bake cherry pies on their break, or break the pineapple ones in two for a nickel, or maybe, it just means put in at the old dirt road amid the thickets and breaks. Could mean trust the grey, the brown, the old and basic.

            I COULD BE TOTALLY WRONG , just rummaging thru thoughts.

        • Hi, E.C., My middle of the night thoughts have me thinking about HOB. I’m not thinking color sphere, but Forrest does use a lot of shades of colors in his writings. This brings me to the word fawn, which he uses to describe his Guernsey calf, Bessie, whom he loved. Fawn also means baby deer. So I’m thinking that maybe HOB could be someplace named Fawn something (Creek, Canyon, etc.) that also would be home to where deer live – geographically “home” of baby deer. Then you would be looking to “put in” below that location. I also notice in the book all of the chapters describing the things/people Forrest loves. Bessie is one of those chapters. My HOB is not Fawn Something, but I don’t have the chest either. Just late-night thoughts.

          • JBL
            If you are to change Brown to a Deer, then do you think “home” will remain unchanged?

            Just contenplating!

          • I’m not saying to change Brown to deer, I’m saying what if perhaps home of Brown is Fawn Creek or something like that. Hence, the need to capitalize Brown, AND, deer are in fact a shade of brown, so if fawn do actually live there, then Fawn Creek would truly be the home of fawn and Fawn, I believe multiple meanings of words must fit, not one or the other. This would also fit geographically.

          • I see the point JBL.

            For what its worth, I believe multiple is a major factor of the chase.

  50. Didn’t Charles Lindbergh have a home somewhere in Montana? Could this area be the HoB?

    • I thought it was near Star Valley?

      Gathering speed for a trip…hope my solve isn’t a throw away…bye.

  51. Some great thoughts here and some are bordering on the answer. In my solve, home is origin/family in a non-geographical layer 1 manner, and also a geographical place name and both ideas require a capital letter. Brown comes from base word bher. To carry, to bear. And bright or shiney, possibly in ref. To wood that is polished. Bher is also pronounced like brrr, burr= cold/hard wood. Brave comes from base hard. Hard and in the wood-burr, knot. Blaze is bright. Brrr is cold. And those that think home of Brown is a metaphor, you would be exactly right. The word metaphor is meta(to carry=bher=origin of brown) + phor(across). Carry across- carry a cross. Now imagine that your spot has a geographical name related to home of Brown, has a ref to carrying a cross-TWICE and your lines 5-7 take you right to a parking lot next to this hoB. Add his half way there metaphorically after clue 1 comment as a lil hint, like he does, you would have a such undeniable confidence huh? The poem is ripe with brown, the location has a few also but the biggie is the main one. Look at etymology of word genus and brown/bher. They are exact. Where does genus fall within nomenclature list? Directly BELOW FAMILY. Put in below the home of Brown. Btw TT, you are 50% right on your interpretation of this line. Do you understand what I mean TT? I can’t say it outright but would love to talk with you. I leave very soon so I can share some in private without giving away to much. All, if it sounds complicated, it isn’t. Once you have where wwh and the canyon Down, it gets easier. The lines start to cross. Cruces means cross and yes he mentions it and shows them but CWB isn’t right, imo. I did not find wwwsh solely in poem, though poem is ripe with them, I found it elsewhere also. It is hinted at pre colon and shown in book. It won’t be long folks, please emotionally prepare yourself. I kinda hate how this is gonna make people feel when found. It’s why I want to host a large multiday gathering to allow searchers to deflate some and celebrate together. Will be healthy for us all. Love you all folks, it’s been a long 6 yrs for me. Whew

  52. If you ask Renowned painter Eric Sloane how to make the color brown he might have many ways to get there, often we over look what shade of it we want to see, I for one like the colors mix of Red, Gold and Blue, that is also the colors of the flag of Colorado, could that be home or Brown? Not just looking for Molly, the most famous Brown in the Rockies, who lived at 10,200′ in Leadville and later of Titanic Fame, but she is buried Cemetery of the Holy Rood, Westbury, NY, she lived in Colorado much of her life, a closer look and we find Holyrood or Holy Rood is a Christian relic alleged to be part of the True Cross on which Jesus died. The word derives from the Old English rood, meaning a pole and the cross, via Middle English, or the Scots haly ruid (“holy cross”).

    Where wood a spiritual message be found like a WWWH is it in a metaphor that is more than halfway there?

    I do see a lot of threads in the most recent scrapbooks, particularly in SC Book 226, what color is the Bird and why the birds eye view?

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