The Key Word…

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“Many have given serious thought to the clues in the poem but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key.”

The above is a quote from Forrest. This page is where we can discuss what that key word might be.

 

 

 

461 thoughts on “The Key Word…

  1. @ Zaphod,
    I think you may have missed the context of the discussion. I did not mean to suggest that the poem needed to be translated to be deciphered. Ann and I were discussing ways to analyze word meanings to see if a keyword(s) would become apparent. I suggested, that since translation is a process of comparing word meanings across languages, perhaps multiple translations would reveal something interesting.

    And it does.

    • Lori & Zephod,

      My interrupted post was a reply to Zephod’s remarks.

      Indeed comparing languages was merely a way to ascertain a consensus on the potential meaning of the words actually used by FF as Lori has clarified. I think it additionally lends credence to the use of rearranged prepositional phrases for purposes of clarity, or at the very least a different perspective (in regards to what FF could have meant).

      In regards to “identical in every language” there is not a single word that id truly universal. The word “no” comes close. If you meant identical in meaning only then that certainly elevates the possibility. But there are none visually identical.

      That said, I still believe Brown to be the key word. Unless you consider my prior analysis of the prepositions to be accurate, in which case “where” was the most helpful word, because it’s location lead to the rearrangement process which lead to the new rendering of line 8, which if correct would be crucial to pinpointing any potential location, both directionally and geographically. Talk about your prepositional phrases!!!

      -Ann

      • Hi Ann: obviously thousands before you have considered that Brown might be Forrest’s keyword — it is the most obvious choice. But how do you square that with “Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key”? Surely Brown has not escaped the tight focus of anybody.

        • Zephod,

          I imagine few have considered Brown under the prepositional phrase analysis provided here. To be sure, such analysis certainly changes the focus of what is put in where.

          -Ann

  2. Zap…I think we agree that the word that is key is also the key word. Works both ways.

    In reply to your comment on now closed page…”Father on the Banco” would be an exception. I think many people had to look up/translate “banco” to understand what Forrest was trying to express in that story. I think the only “foreign language” we need to be able to comprehend is Forrest’s exceptional fluency in the English language.

    • Hi Sally: I agree that “word that is key” and “keyword” are 100% interchangeable as far as the Chase is concerned.

      As far as words Forrest uses in his books, Scrapbooks, etc., I say: look up or translate away as needed. I certainly was one that had to look up banco to confirm that it meant what I gathered it did from the context. But I think translating *poem* words into other languages, or digging for obscure, ancient, slang or obsolete meanings in an unabridged dictionary is an exercise in wool-gathering. Well … not quite wool-gathering; it isn’t without purpose. But it isn’t going to help anyone solve any clues IMO.

      • It all depends on the word that u think is the word that is key.
        My word is a word that confirms that you are in the correct location. This word is in no way a keyword, in a traditional sense, but a very important hint in the pursuit of the chest.

        ie, a word that is key

  3. Hey Lori,

    In case you missed it, I reposted my reveal about line 8 in the “Home of Brown” page. I further disclosed a potential solution to the HOB quandary using the preposition analysis you and I have discussed. That solution could be Miss Molly Brown. I thought I’d share it here as well since I believe the key word to be Brown.

    -Ann

    • Hi Ann: don’t you think “Molly Brown” is specialized knowledge, unsinkability notwithstanding?

      • It took me about an hour to find and learn about Molly Brown when I started working on the poem. I assume most people get there equally or even more quickly. For sure that is not specialized knowledge, Zap.

        Anyway I think Molly Brown is not a good one because nowhere in the entire state of Colorado is barely if ever mentioned in TTOTC or TFTW or OUAW.

        But some might take the absence of any special memories or even interest in any form to be a clue worth following up a few dozen times.

    • I have seen quite a few discussions about Molly Brown.
      It doesn’t work for me because it leads into Colorado and I have seen nothing to indicate that any place in Colorado was special to FF.

      I do agree that solving the HoB will be key in solving the poem, I just don’t know if it is THE word that FF was talking about. It could be. I just don’t know… yet.

      • Lori,

        Yeah not sure Molly Brown is correct either. And you are right that Brown may not be the key word FF was referring to. But as Mikey said in The Goonies “What if?”

        That said, I understand the hesitation regarding making a connection to FF in terms of a special place for him. The desire to make such a connection could be rather daunting. If it were easy then all searchers would have to do is retrace every step the man ever took. I don’t think the task would be so simple. Additionally, even if one were able to retrace every step the man ever took, it’s not clear which places would be considered “special” to him. I have multiple locations that are near and dear to me. Many people know about each of them but none know quite which ones are “special.” That would require someone knowing why a particular place is considered to be special for someone else. The poem gives us nothing in regards to that, unless Brown or the elusive key word suggest it.

        It is not beyond the realm of possibility that at some point in the man’s life he came across a breathtaking place (“marvel gaze”), whether on vacation, or mid travel, or just in passing through somewhere, that did not become “special” enough to him to embark on this endeavor. Generally, if a place is special enough and we have the means and ability, we visit those places as often as possible. I can’t imagine FF hiding the chest in such a dear place as to not having visited the place since. I’d suffer too much not going back to such a special place. Anyways, I would not draw too many conclusions too quickly on thoughts posted here. I’m just throwing ideas out there as they come and seeing what sticks. IF enough of the right ones stick then maybe someone will find the chest.

        -Ann

        • Hi Ann: regarding “I can’t imagine FF hiding the chest in such a dear place as to not having visited the place since.” It may be hard to imagine, but apparently it’s the case:

          People.com (2/10/2016): People: “Have you been back to the site since hiding the chest?”

          FF: “No, but I could go if I wanted to, even at 85. One of my clues is that it’s above 5,000 feet and below 10,200 feet. I said that because people were climbing up to the tops of mountains. The biggest clue of all is: Don’t look for the treasure any place where an 80-year-old man could not have taken it. That eliminates half the places where people are looking.”

          And:

          MW 6Q (2/4/2018) Q5: “People are valuing the Thrill of the Chase and all that it offers. Thank you for creating an adventure which can spark dreams and embolden lives to explore a life craved. It’s amazing to think how a poem of 24 lines, with reward at the end, can inspire so many different things in so many different people. Numerous searchers are convinced they know where the treasure is, and are close-minded to alternate options. Only one, if even one, of course, can be correct. It seems a bit sad for seemingly so many to be entrenched on a wrong path, even if treasures of a different type can be found there as well. From your perspective, what do you feel causes such blindness or stubbornness?”

          FF: “Stubbornness is sometimes confused with tenacity. There are many avid searchers looking for the treasure who are not blinded by its value. After I hid the treasure I never went back to that spot, and now I can’t.”

          And more recently:

          MW Six Questions (2/4/2019) Q3: “There are so many truly unique artifacts placed in the treasure chest. Each holds a beautiful story that keeps getting longer. As these treasures continue to endure the passing of time, what do you imagine they are experiencing? Do you feel the conditions have been harsh or kind?”

          FF: “I have not been back to the treasure chest since I hid it more than 8 years ago. Perhaps the artifacts are enjoying each other’s company as they patiently listen for the clomp of a boot.”

        • That is where the book TTOTC comes in handy. Within the stories, he refers to various places as special, dear, wonderful, etc.

          Even though it does not appear in the poem, I was beginning to think the word that is key is “aberration”. FF seems to like that word. He uses it in interviews (the tarryscant.com website search lists four occurences) [http://www.tarryscant.com/search].

      • Well, Lori – not to toot my own horn LOL but Forrest wanted Doug Preston to write TTOTC for him. Doug declined, but “took the story and changed it around some” , “took it to the Amazon jungle”, and called it The Codex (written in 2003). The heroine is named Sally Colorado. Crazy that Doug would name his personaje after me but what can I say? Lorraine Mills, 4/27/2013.

        You know Forrest and Doug are thick as thieves! You can’t go to a book signing or see a documentary clip without Doug being there. Didn’t Forrest just mention flying out of the Amazon jungle to minister to BIP a few scrapbooks ago? Hmmm.

        Anyhoo, Forrest also traveled thru Colorado twice a year with his family en route to Yellowstone from Texas. They camped along the way. The family may have even had their fishing rods with them for some of that Blue Ribbon water Colorado is famous for. It isn’t what he says, it’s what he whispers.

        • Hi Sally,
          I have considered that for sure. Reading between the lines is looking at the “nothing” or what is missing. I know that he has been through CO and has conducted business there. But, I believe that if there was a “special” place there that was dear to him, he would have told at least one story about it in TTOTC.

          I haven’t seen all of his interviews, obviously, but I don’t recall him mentioning doing anything in Colorado, certainly not anything special. I could be very wrong on that part.

          I would love to have some hints and clues pointing that direction, as I am from Northern CO and I have plenty of family in the area that would help me search. Or I could search while there visiting.

          Just that I am not seeing it yet.

          • What has he done that you know about in New Mexico above 8.25 mile N of Santa Fe? Or in Wyoming outside of Yellowstone Park? Or in Montana North of Bozeman? Do you eliminate all those also? Remember, he flew his own plane for years and landed all over these states. He speaks of landing in random airports, renting a car, and searching for arrowheads. That the details are not in TTOTC does not mean you should eliminate them.

            mBG

        • Sally,

          Interesting information. Any specific names of locations in Colorado FF is known to have crossed paths with?

          -Ann

  4. IMO- the key word is actually two words.
    Water high
    If you take in the “canyon down” stream to the outside bend in a stream, “water high”, “below the home of brown”, look to the outside bank a large rusted piece of quarts rock “blaze”, you “look down your quest to cease”, don’t tarry long because the treasure is “worth the cold”. Cold water that is.
    Just IMO
    I’ve only had one BOTG. Looking forward to this coming spring.
    Also, IMO, many searchers are forgetting something F had said before about North of Santa Fe, and that north is not just straight up (paraphrased) but from 271 degrees west-northwest to 89 degrees east-northeast. Just something to think about.

  5. Ladies and Gentleman,

    I have attempted to discuss the possibilities of the key word with you further but have been met with some unforeseen resistance. I would like to redirect your attention for the time being to something we discussed in brief previously but never really answered. I inquired on the last Key Word page whether anyone had studied the map and compared the words contained therein to the words in the poem to see if any were the same. Has anyone found such a “Key” to the map?

    -Ann

    • Hi Ann, only one word from the poem that I can see: Canyon. Interested in knowing where are you taking it. 🙂

      • Oz10,

        Discussion was made on the last page of this thread regarding the topic “Key Word.” I had made notice of the fact that FF may have selected the map he uses to illustrate the range of possible locations for a specific reason. In light of there being a “Key Word,” I wondered whether the key word sought in the poem wasn’t also affiliated with the general notion that maps tend to have “Keys” as well. Several double entendres, I realize, but would be very FF like. Btw, what is te full name of the canyon on the map? I haven’t looked lately. I’m hoping it’s not Grand! 🙂

        -Ann

          • Oz10,

            Thanks for clarifying.. I will take a gander at Black Canyon. I have the map. In lieu of the Canada remarks though, I am wondering if that search for matching words shouldn’t be expended further north. Does anyone have information, other than what’s on the map as shown, about the map? Such as when it was made, what does the complete map look like, etc. etc…..?

            -Ann

          • Oz10,

            Have you looked at Black Canyon? I just submitted a post in the Poem as Riddle thread proposing what I believe to be the riddle as well as an answer tot he riddle. That, along with my keyword point to a location littered with the nine clues! I’d almost be willing to bet on it! I have one or two more things to check. Just wanted to let you know.

            -Ann

      • Ann & Oz10 – I suppose you could also snag “Brown” out of Browning and “But” out of Butte (if breaking up words on the map is allowed)?

        • Browning may not be in the highlighted/ elevation area. The other one, you just pulled it out of your Butte… lol

        • Blex,

          I would stray away from breaking up the words. I did notice Native American names on the map. Anyone translate those yet to see if they match words in the poem? And before you say anything Zephod about translating words, I am referring to words on the map not in the poem. So FF saying you shouldn’t have to look up any of the words (in the poem) would not be in accurate or in direct contrast to this inquiry.

          -Ann

  6. I am actually going through that now! LOL
    I started by going through TTOTC and writing down place names and other things I think might be clues (aberrations?). Now that I have the list, I am looking over the map.

    In TTOTC, the poem is on page 132. On page 133, is an out-of-focus picture of a map of NM.
    And “out-of-focus” fits a definition of “aberration”.

    • Lori,

      I see. I just meant a direct comparison of the names and places on the map next to the poem with the words on the poem. Let me know if you find anything. On a side note, I am trying to repost some replies of mine that apparently didn’t meet the muster of post-ability.

      -Ann

  7. I haven’t made the opportunity to review the previous pages in this thread subject but obviously the heightened interest as of late is due to the interview clips released by Kpro & Mike. Clearly now, most searchers realize the “key word” Forrest was referring to is in the poem so imagination contentment can be ruled out for this distinct case. I say all that to highlight the clarifying follow up comment made by Forrest, in that very same interview.

    “There is one word that will help you more than some of the others”
    “…In the poem…”
    “But you have to have all of them!”

    This basically is saying there are several if not many key words throughout the poem, but one of them is overlooked by most searchers and this particular word in the poem helps the searcher more than the other key words, which aren’t being overlooked…

    This IMO eliminates the usual suspects — the real question to ask is; In Forrest’s mind what is this key word helping the searcher to accomplish relative to she successful in finding the Treasure Chest, I.e. the starting point, the poem’s method of being figured out, the poem’s structure, understanding what “it” is, or the ending point?

    GCG

    “But you have

    • GCG,

      Please do read over the previous Key Word pages, (especially the end of the last one). Looking forward to your continued thoughts. We have been discussing HOB and the first stanza mostly. And structure.

      -Ann

      • Ann there are two other subject threads for HOB and Architecture discussions. I try to stay on topic so my post don’t get censored…

        I at on time thought “It” was the word that was key. At another time I thought “canyon” was Forrest intended word which was key But I no longer believe either of those are the specific word he was referring to in this quote.

        As a play on words I thought he might have been referring to the word “title” as key – tight focus, title…But I no longer believe that either.

        If you pay attention to Forrest’s comments which directly follow the quotes I listed above, I’ll assert that there is a hint here, because something in Forrest’s mind links the two thoughts.

        Listen to the whole interview yourself and let me know what you think?

        GCG

        • GCG,

          I would gladly listen to the whole interview and share my thoughts, if I knew which interview you were talking about and where to find it. 🙂 If you could kindly point me in the right direction I will gladly be on my way.

          -Ann

  8. It seems to me that anything related to archeology and old things would qualify as a special place to Mr. Fenn. There are such sites in all four states.

    • From my reading of TTOTC, I don’t believe that fits FF’s definition of “special”.

      -Lori

    • But Aaron: does IT qualify as *a* word that is key … in the poem? There are 5 of them in the poem … or 8 if you include “with” twice and “title”. And same argument as for Brown: only a “few” have been in tight focus with “IT”? I guess at least with Brown you can apply tight focus and break it down into B row N.

      • Zap, I believe the first stanza is key to helping us with WWWH, and other clues. We know IT is a pronoun, which could refer to something previously mentioned. I cannot speak for all of the IT’s in the poem, but if the IT’s within the clues refer to something that we can determine from the first stanza, then it meets requirements for using the first stanza to help us with the clues. IT would fit in with this being a riddle that we need to solve as well. If a riddle is involved would it make more sense for IT to be something we need to determine, or for us to just assume IT is referring to the path, or the chase?

      • Zap,
        As Aaron implied… why do all the IT{s} have to have the same usage of IT meaning.
        IT vs. IT’s have different usages, do they not? It along can be different with the meaning of the word, and words used with IT the word.

        The word “But” work the same… it can include something mentioned or used to indicate something other than being mentioned.
        Even though But is used in the line “BTSWMG”… don’t we need to consider both usages?
        So why use only one meaning of IT throughout the whole poem without truly analyzing the other possibilities?
        Technically; there are 4 IT – 1 IT’s or IT IS.
        Breaking down other words into letters as you’re doing with “With” and “Title” I can find~ trump is an idiot… or my first girl friend’s name… and last weeks winning lotto numbers… but I doubt those will help with a solve.
        The questions should be is; WHY fenn deliberately place IT where they are? Especially in the line we know to be the first clue. How does the two IT in stanza 2 work with each other? or do they work separate from each other?
        begin IT where warm waters halt vs. being where warm waters halt.
        Or I’m I just full of “tITle”

        • Seeker – It is exactly what it is – IT Now if you get the picture you have IT. imo

        • Hi Seeker: I’ll just come out and say “it”: I have never believed the keyword is a poem word — whether that word appears just once, or multiple times. With so many searchers, there just isn’t a single word in the poem that hasn’t been seized upon by hundreds and scrutinized with “tight focus.”

          If people want to assume that the simple pronoun “it” in and of itself will magically unlock the poem’s secrets, I wish them well. I do not deny that it’s important to figure out the identity of the antecedent of that simple little word, but focusing on that word itself will achieve nothing that I can see.

          • Zap, you are right that all words in the poem have been scrutinized with tight focus. The word IT though is a tough one to figure out for sure since it is a pronoun that could refer to something that is not so obvious. To be in “tight focus” with IT is to know what IT is referring to.

            If IT does take on the meaning of something described in the first stanza, and can be used to unlock clue locations once determined wouldn’t it be pretty key?

          • Zap ~ *If people want to assume that the simple pronoun “it” in and of itself will magically unlock the poem’s secrets, I wish them well.*

            LOL I like the down play of; a simple pronoun.

            No matter what I say or explain doesn’t matter. But there’s an old comment with enough dust on it to choke a bull floating, around for years, that says it better than I can; In part….

            “When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you I worked on that thing… I felt like an architect …”

            Just ‘take IT in’ for a moment…

          • The word *IT* in the poem has been a topic for discussion since the early days of this blog. As *it* garnered more interest, Dal made a separate page to discuss *it*. Whether *it* turns out to be a crucial element of the poem or not… *it* may be wise to not “discount” *it*. Just because there are only so many words in the poem, does not mean that the majority of readers have “scrutinized” anything/any of them correctly. Or not…

          • Hi Ken: I’m content that I know what the poem’s various “it”s refer to, and if I’m correct, the identities of each are to be discovered as a ~consequence~ of solving the clues, not as a means of doing so. But of course I could be wrong. Still, I feel I have to apply triage somewhere, otherwise the possibilities cascade to infinity.

          • Ken,

            Regardless of IT as a word… the question remains, like any other word in the poem, why did fenn choose this words?
            In stanza 2 we have something that should lead us to the last sentence of that stanza;
            “Put in below the home of Brown.”
            The question is how does that happen?

            Take IT in as a movement vs. take IT in as an observation needs to satisfy a method of operation… the first IT we have is in the prior line, seems to be that method we need to know about.

            Ok.. so the reason for the summary is this; Is there any law that precludes IT in the first line can’t be understood by the condition of the second IT?

            If folks want to dismiss it as a simple word, I’m ok with that… but I’m more curious as to why folks think something has to be known of or happen ‘prior’ in the poem to only understand something later?

            My whole point is; does IT reflect on how we discover hoB in the proper manner fenn sees hoB [ from memory], using line 2 in that stanza as one or the other options above?.. movement vs. observation.
            Sure, there is the hybrid idea… but even then, we still need to know when something changes.

            The exercise I’m presenting about movement vs. observing, relate to the action of a searcher at clues 3 & 4 [respectfully]… the clues that seem to stump all.

            There has been a lot of different reasoning for clues 3 and 4 to have fouled a solve… LOL would it be logical that searchers didn’t get something correct in the manner they proceeded [even with the first two clues deciphered to their references] vs. everyone is just not getting the mileage out of the family hatchback?

            The other problem is; How does either method reflect the action of a searcher when they read stanza 3, and how we perceive what hoB is for? I highly doubt the idea that hoB will be just a way point.

            Jennifer London of the Today Show asked Forrest ‘Who is Brown?’, he replied, “If I told you that you’d go straight to the treasure.”

            Last question for the day [ although I have asked before ] What are we looking for???
            “IF you’ve been wise and found the blaze”
            Look below?

          • Seeker that’s not quite what Forrest said in the Jennifer London interview. It’s the 10:40 mark of this video:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8

            Jennifer says, “In the poem, which you say has these nine clues, there are references to water, there’s references to Brown’s house. Who’s Brown?”

            FF: “There’s references to wood.”

            Jennifer says, “But you didn’t answer my question. Who’s Brown?”

            FF, smiling, “Well, that’s for you to find … if I told you that, you’d go right to the chest!”

            Forrest made the same sort of quip to Richard Eeds (5/29/2015) on a different subject:

            Eeds: “What kind of shoes? What kind of footprints did you leave? What kind of boots did you have on?”

            FF: “Well if I told you that, you’d go out and find it.”

            Link: https://santafe.com/podcasts/forrest-fenn-treasurer-hider-author-gallery-owner-and-santa-fe-legend

          • Zaphod,

            Thanks for the link! I just checked out FF’s remarks regarding the question about who is Brown. The manner in which he responds makes me confident that Brown is indeed a person (IMO for those moderating). It certainly helps to know how someone says something in trying to figure out or understand what they mean in saying it at all. Thus, much is lost in texting because no one ever has context or the vocal cues that aid in understanding what is being communicated. And if indeed Brown referes to a specific person, then that would certainly narrow HOB down quite a bit.

            -Ann

          • Seeker… You know well the many discussions in reference to your questions posed above. Everything from punctuation to any number of other ideas have been flung around in respect to where the hang-up call occurs.
            Again… many folks have read the poem and have managed to get to the place where the first two clues are. For me, this equates to the idea that anyone should be able to read the poem and do likewise… period. I also have to keep in mind that Fenn has told everyone that figuring out the first clue is metaphorically equivalent to more than half way to the treasure. This brings up a question about how much further the second clue gets a searcher… metaphorically.
            As far as the ongoing problem of leaving the poem/walking by the treasure after that… it is anyone’s *guess* why that happens exactly. I certainly do not think that the word *it* is the problem in total… but more of an incorrect deciphering of the next clue as it appears in the words after the first two clues wording. I haven’t said *riddle* in a couple of days… so, there it is. All of the words are a part of it…. summarization complete.

          • I believe it to be talking about the same thing all three times he uses the word. And that the actions and phrases associated with IT actually correspond to specific geographic places on your map and when you connect the dots so to speak, you actually draw your own blaze on said map.

            The first three instances happen very quickly in the poem and the stanza after those instances fenn calls out what makes you wise. As we all know, that is finding the blaze. After you’ve been intelligent enough to have found the blaze, he no longer references the word IT.

            The first three stanzas describe how to create the blaze and then then you find it. I think this idea is foreign to some because they equate blaze to mean x marks the spot and now you’ve won, leaving the last 2 stanzas to just be filler and instructions on how the finder of the chest should proceed. Yeah, I don’t think so, I believe there to be 10 more lines to work through once you do find it. But that’s me.

        • All ITs are needed when using the poem as a map. Including the ITs in with and title. Connect the dots. Or ITs in this case.
          The ITs are the more obvious words to connect when using poem as a map.
          Other less obvious dots to connect are the wise.
          I strongly feel that infinity is the word that is key.

      • Zap – B row n…but, there is no paddle up your creek, on my ‘IT’ as the ‘Madison River’ on the Western edge of YNP. But a dingy with a rope attached to the belt on your fly fishing waders works.

        There’s that ‘IT’ again, in a Q/A quote from Forrest:

        ‘You’ll never find it that way. You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.’

        My ‘IT’ begins at my WWWH. At Madison Junction.

        Giggles, Forrest!

        Are we doing the ‘listen good’ thing, when you communicate with us?

    • Aaron,

      An astute observation. “It” is indeed a word of interest, particularly in stanza 2. In line five “Begin it” refers to something began, I.e.-the Chase, a particular path, . . . and continues in line six “And take it,” implying that whatever you began in line five continues in line six, presumably downward into a canyon. And it should be noted that this “it” may be a line of sight and not require actual footsteps. One can follow, for instance, the horizon with the eyes without ever having taken a step.

      -Ann

      • Hi Ann: “It” can easily be key both to the reader’s foundational perspective and actual physical location of WWWH. If “It” is the Chase, or the Path, or the watercourse to follow, any further instance of its use in the poem most likely indicates geo-direction. But if “It” is something else, as suggested by @Seeker (if memory serves), it may merely be descriptive, and be static, devoid of agency.

        We are told by Fenn to use imagination, to build image, in a literal sense, so perhaps that is what we should do. So, instead of a prepositional consideration, try using a parenthetical consideration: “Begin (it) where warm waters halt and take (it) in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.”
        By thus transferring agency from the seeker to the scene an image is formed.
        Now, oceans of data have been crossed on this notion, but if “It” is an image seen at WWWH then “It” is key to the entire geographic composition of the quest as well as the perceptual relationship between the seeker and the words of the poem.

        “It” needn’t even be explicitly used, but there it is, front-loaded with potential and presumption, and the choice one makes at the onset of the poem conditions the rest of the poem. IMO it is Fenn letting us lay a trap for ourselves. He doesn’t desire to mislead, but he certainly doesn’t prevent us from doing it to ourselves.

        • SBH,

          Well said! I like your explanation of the parenthetical analysis. It is certainly more appealing to the ear to use such a method. One point of concern, naturally, would be that such a method renders the word “it” superfluous. And as FF has so eloquently pointed out, all the words have there purpose and are needed (I believe his remarks which I am paraphrasing here were made in reference to the “Key Word”). Other than that I really like the idea and would be interested in a completed overhaul of the poem in that context.

          -Ann

          • SBH,

            I took a second look at your parenthetical description, or description of the parenthetical and realized that doing so nullifies my suggestion that both of the “it”s in lines five and six refer to same thing. In the parenthetical they couldn’t possibly mean the same thing. I think too much is eliminated at that rate.

            -Ann

          • Patrick,

            Self correction. They could mean the same thing in the parenthetical but it would be a stretch (perhaps of the imagination as you suggest FF would want us to do!)

            -Ann

        • Nice post SBH. I like your choice of words when you say ” “It” needn’t even be explicitly used, but there it is, front-loaded with potential and presumption, and the choice one makes at the onset of the poem conditions the rest of the poem.”

          A searcher has to make a choice on how they want to use IT, and yes that choice can affect the rest of the poem. It is my opinion that this IT is the word that precipitates the use of imagination that FF likes to speak of. Unlike you, I don’t feel like it is a trap. I feel like it needs to be explored.

        • SBH,

          Yep…..
          IT, as you explained well can be one or the other as to; what is expected of a searcher, AND as others have stated; a combination of both.
          We have choices…

          You said; ~ IMO it is Fenn *letting us lay a trap for ourselves.* He doesn’t desire to mislead, but he certainly doesn’t prevent us from doing it to ourselves.

          I have use the term; The illusion we [readers] create, and it may all fall to a precondition notion of how we expect the poem’s clue to play out [a more traditional or common treasure hunt style]… rather than… how fenn may have wanted the to play out… possibly in a more unconventional manner.

          IMO, there are two basic principles at work;
          1. literally and physically following clues ~ point to point [ or what I call the stomping method ].
          2. to actually use the clue’s references in a manner that they are needed to pin point the desired ending.
          Personally;
          #1 is being used by just about everyone who has ever posted. # 2 is sometimes used by some in combination with #1.
          My suggest is; fenn telling us he followed his own created clues from the poem to complete (completed?) the task, says to me # 2 is a more likely candidate.
          Even then… there are slightly different processes that can be done with #2
          Examples; a triangulation method of land features? {for example}
          or
          What I like mostly is; an planned / time search that we need know, to observe the poem unfold before us with the correct deciphering of the clues as seen by fenn at ground level.

          But we do have options….

          • Hi Seeker:
            All of what you say is why I suggested making “It” parenthetical and thereby sub-visualizing it such that, at the risk of messing with the text, we imagine the following: “Begin where warms waters halt and take in the canyon down.” Now ponder: why “It” is there at all; why is it there twice; is it used as two differing agential references; what nexus of perceptions does it condition?

            IMO if one seeks to make difficult a task, not through deception but through concealment/camouflage, the sleight of text needs to come early in context. It goes a long way toward describing how the correct WWWH obviates the immediately next step taken by those successful seekers: they assume an agency unmeant for them.

    • Yes, this. If you don’t know what “it” is, you don’t have wwwh. It links wwwh to the rest of the “solve”, and points right at HoB. Here’s the poem “unfolded” as sentences:

      Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.

      Put in below the home of Brown.

      From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh; there’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.

      This follows the punctuation in the poem, therefore I think it’s a legit way to unroll the blueprint, if you will.

      Basically:

      1.) It1 = path from wwwh down the canyon (whatever that means)

      2.) put in below the home of Brown

      3.) It2 = “it’s”, in the sentence “from there it’s no place for the meek…”.

      What’s interesting to me is at this point, there are no more “it”s:

      If you were wise and found the blaze look quickly down, your quest to cease, but tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go in peace.

      • Hi srch12345:

        You said: “3.) It2 = “it’s”, in the sentence “from there it’s no place for the meek…”.”

        IMO in this phrase “it’s” is again in question, if only because of the preceding preposition “From”. Is “it’s” self-referential or is it descriptively contrastive? In my mind that question determines whether “no place for the meek” conditions where you are going or where you already are.

        If it’s self-referential then Fenn is speaking about where one would subsequently go from there, namely, further onward is “no place for the meek”.

        But if it’s a descriptive contrast then Fenn is using “it” yet again in stasis. “From there it’s no place…” takes on a parenthetical sub-text, as in: (away) From there it’s no place…” For example, if I were to say “North from there it’s Oklahoma; West from there it’s New Mexico; East from there it’s Louisiana, then “there” is a little place called Texas (apologies to Willis Alan Ramsey).

        • I think people over complicate things.
          IT = your journey.

          Begin your journey WWWH…
          Take your journey in the canyon down…
          From there your journey is no place for the meek…

          etc etc etc…
          IMO

          –Lori

          • Hi Lori:

            That certainly is suitable. But two elements come to mind that frustrate that explanation.
            1. 15 years imbeded in the work product implies a careful undertaking of great difficulty. 15 years to build riddles in which to hide something before then hiding the thing in the vast particularity of the natural world which in turn must be faithfully represented by the work itself.

            2. 10 years of thousands of people having committed countless inward moments of devotion to something not fractionally solvable yielding at best some isolated minimal positive feedback from the originator.

            If the poem were simple; if its theme is typical to an aged human need; if its architecture is simple as well, then the chest is likely in Montana, perhaps outside the borders of YNP, the complexity of its concealment is the natural world. That would be enough, I agree.

            Somehow I don’t think that in itself would be enough for Fenn. But what do I know?

          • I think people also misunderstand what FF meant when he said it took 15 years to write the poem. It took 15 years until he was satisfied with how the poem was written. I don’t believe he spent every waking hour of that 15 years pondering word meanings and revising what was written.

            In TTOTC, page 131, FF writes “Indecision is the key to flexibility and it’s why I waited so long to secret my cache… And like Eric Sloane, at age almost-eighty, I figured it was time to act. So I wrote a poem …”

            -Lori

    • I believe you’ll Have Lost IT… Shouldn’t you be focused on WWWH , if you don’t know where to begin than IT is just a football. IMO you all talk in circles.

  9. I don’t have a solution to offer up, but I’ve thought about the above quote from Forrest with some duration. My thought is that if one is a member of the “literal interpretation” camp then the word that is key would perhaps be “canyon”. IF canyon means canyon in the poem, then there are only so many canyons within the search area. How many canyons reside within the requisite altitude parameters? Canyons aren’t typically found at high altitudes, so does canyon actually mean canyon? Just some random musings. Thank you for your time.

  10. SBH,

    Sorry, not sure where “Patrick: came from. I am flipping back and forth between threads.

    -Ann

    • Hi Ann: No sweat, threads run together. The thing about Fenn’s secondary representations of the poem is that in its totality it is both necessary and sufficient, but nowhere does he stipulate that it is as such severally. Zaphop has a discipline of thought that holds to a steganographic devotion of some portion of the text as meant to camouflage other information. As such, that portion serves specific purpose but is folded into the body of text. Similarly, disguising the logistics of perception and spatial construct by thus using “It” in the way I suggest by no means renders the word superfluous. On the contrary, it gives it pivotal importance.

      To your second point (and I hope this doesn’t sound like question-begging) I don’t think the poem sustains itself in uniform mode so as to be “overhauled” as you ask. Fenn is a trickster. He doesn’t follow a serial temporal path within the body of the text: he begins with a recapitulation of events that embraces more than one mode of time, and then establishes, uses, and then shifts to other various modes of time. In short, I don’t have a one dimensional overhaul that satisfies your request because I think the text is meant to frustrate that.

      The poem is not fractionally solvable, and IMO it changes as it progresses. There is a perceptual trap at the beginning, indeed with the very words “Begin it”. But further on there is no expectation that Fenn will persist in such posture. He has said we will have to adjust.

      • SBH,

        Thank you for the eloquent words. I am glad you are not providing an overhaul of the complete poem as I don’t think doing so would advance what is already before us. Indeed, I do not believe n chopping the poem up and solving it fractionally either. I believe most of my posts reflect the need to examine the words in the poem and their relation to one another.

        Many speak about nine distinct clues. I only see a poem with lines and words in it. Let’s face it FF was not known for his linguistic expertise. An interview provided to me yesterday made me fully aware of that. While he may have enjoyed playing with words and perhaps even the rules underlying them, I believe FF is a simple man when it comes to words.

        Sometimes things can be overthought or thought too much into. And in doing so we tend to make more of what is actually there. I do not mean to oversimplify here either. Is it genius to hide a treasure and craft a poem that could lead someone to it? Perhaps. But any one of us is capable of doing the same (if we could afford the treasure to be hidden!) I myself have written a riddle or two (none of which lead to any treasure, at least not yet), but how many people do I realistically expect to understand my thought process in order to be able to come up with the answer I intend? It’s hard to say.

        I hope for FF’s sake that in 1,000 years words and languages have not changed sooo much that FF’s poem will be as foreign to the living then as Greek is to most today. (Should it take that long for the chest to be found.)

        It would be interesting to run vocal analysis on his reading of the poem to see if there is any notable change when he passes over any potential “key word.” And, as I have not studied any of his work, written or otherwise, I am very limited in the depth and breadth of contributing to his intent.

        I have only examined the poem for a short time, and so any analysis given has been strictly from a writer’s standpoint. I would venture to say that FF did not intend for the poem to be so elaborate that only the well versed could find the chest. And it’s likely not even about grasping the individual words or what the poem could mean. It ought to be about what FF mean’s when he says……

        We all have ideas about what the words could mean to us as indicated by our experiences with such words over the course of our lives. But we should really be asking what do the words mean to FF. Maybe that’s where the books come in handy, maybe not. I imagine reading them gives the reader greater insight into FF’s word usage and mannerisms. But I will leave that to those who have read or wish to read to decide.

        The key then, would be understanding the words as FF does.

        -Ann

        • I would certainly argue that Forrest wasn’t known for his linguistic expertise. Forrest uses a plethora of words old, new and slang alike and to me the man knows the English language through and through better than most if not all of us. We tend to pigeonhole definitions to their most probable meanings, yet reading Forrest is an expedition on the many various definitions a word has.

          Perhaps punctuation not so much but even that I think is by design and probably why he directs us to disregard punctuation so often in his secondary comments and interviews.

          A slight change in emphasis can change things dramatically.

          Put in below the home of brown.
          (Oh, so a specific thing is put in someplace south of or below the home of brown)

          Put in, below the home of brown
          ( emphasis on put in directs us to potential boat launch, located south or downstream from home of brown.)

          Put in below, the home of brown
          (The action of the placement of the home of brown, south of or downstream from current location.)

          • Sorry, That’s argue that he was an expert on linguistics, not that he wasn’t. I think my premise clearly says that but the wording of my first line may lead some to hear the opposite of what I’m saying.

          • Double a,

            My prepositional analysis shared a couple days ago discussed in detail the conundrum of the phrases. I focused in on line 8 as it is a stand alone sentence. It does beg the question, which arrangement best matches FF’s intent. But, as I of late have stumbled upon a potential “solve” I have shifted my focus to tying up loose ends there. So far:
            1. I believe I can answer the riddle.
            2. I believe I have the keyword, which also bodes well with my answer to the riddle.
            3. My proposed location meets the 9 clue criteria, with the obvious exception FF mentions you won’t know until you get there.
            4. And the details are eerily in lune with all three.

            That said, I will leave linguistic analysis to the linguists!

            -Ann

          • Thanks for that reminder Lori. It’s a bit late but I would like to say that I hope all of you enjoyed your Christmas, turkeys.

          • Double a, here’s another: Put, in below the home of Brown. (Something has been put below the HoB; buried, for example; or we are being told to put something there.)

        • Hi Ann:

          As a writer Fenn’s products are diverse, but ultimately he is practical unto his projects and himself. He can be precise (FF land surveyor), humorous (many examples), strident (in memoria). But it is never art for him, indeed even art is simply a commodity for him. I think he is best when he stays within himself and speaks with the voice of his generation couched in its obstinate irreverence for schools of formal understanding not gained through direct experience. This general disdain for rules in behavior and punctuation (up until a moment rules happen to suit him) is useful in many aspects of the Chase and in his manipulation of text. Veterans call it Fennspeak. A perfect textual example is the poem’s first stanza: its uses of “and” dissolves continuity within portions of the sentence and ill-defines whether certain words are verb or noun. ….”I can keep my secret where and hint of riches new and old.” It’s a strange use of “where” and “and” that then calls into question the use of “hint” as a verb, further clouding the object modified by “new and old.” And it all starts right out of the gate.

          “The poem is straightforward.” Yes, but it is not meant to represent anything other than itself, and for a highly singular purpose.

          • The poem is straight forward;
            the puzzles within are anything but straightforward. IMO.

            For instance, one of ff’s clever hidden riddles about blacksmith
            tools… bellows = windbag

            Applying “Windbag” to one geographical location is more like a “trick”. I know of a place, but it’s location doesn’t meet ff’s minimum 5000 ft elevation where chest is hidden.

  11. Fisher of men? Searching for the correct solution to the end of Mr Fenn’s Rainbow? Rainbow is the word that should point you to the “Key” word. Right Mr Fenn. Up I’ve said too much lol

    • An idea I had worked with is to identify all the colors in the poem as a start:

      Brown
      gold
      red
      everd (verde, green)

      maybe more

    • How is a rainbow achieved?
      Does the Coriolis affect have anything to do with it?
      Sure, sure gravity plays a roll [Coriolis affect]… blah blah blah, but is the main causes for both? Because two thing are needed.

      Hint; One word start with a turn, the other, is only for the brightness amount us.

    • mdc,

      Thank you for the link. I have only seen quotes of this interview. Now I have some semblance of the context too. And in light of that, there is clearly one word in the poem more helpful than all the others. His reluctance to answer the question and his slight of hand in not answering it directly with a yes or no is a sure give that the answer is yes.

      That said, I am wondering now if he was joking about the last clue being the most important one, because as he noted you would obviously have the treasure at that point. Or, was he serious about it being the most important clue and covering up it’s seriousness by joking about it? I suppose I should take a look at the last clue!

      -Ann

      • It sounds literal to me. Why would we need clues beyond locating the treasure? I don’t even buy that the last clue is anything other than in the last sentence, because again why would we need more? Of course the last clue is more than a little important.

        Quote from interview, posted on Jenny’s site 10/16/19

        “When you get to the last clue, look down because that’s where the treasure chest is.”

        Another from 7/4/2014
        Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order? Serge Teteblanche Just one Serge, the last one. f

  12. The word that is key is “Brown”- capitalized. It’s not what it says which is important but rather a cllue on how to interpret all the clues.

  13. The word that is key is “Brown”- capitalized. It’s not what it says which is important but rather a cllue on how to interpret all the clue

  14. Aside from the poem, I believe the word “dedication” is key. FF has shown us this dedication himself by having spent nearly 30 years from the start of the Chase until the present. Exceeding his 15 year limit of remaining at the same job, Fenn’s dedication, benevolence, and tenacity is beyond admirable, it is Fenntaculous (yes, a new dictionary word – take note Webster). But if he has devoted this amount of effort, wouldn’t he expect the same from us?

    Time is limited, so my time to further post will also be limited. No harm was meant to anyone and I apologize if offense has been taken. Although much of what I have said has been deleted, my intent was to prove a point. That point is to listen and discern what that truth is.

    Mickey

    • Sorry, one more thing…

      The real treasure is life.

      Friends, love, happiness, and fond memories all make up this treasure. So how is it possible that a physical treasure can be a substitute for those irreplaceable things?

      Answer: Though a thousand million years will pass and money will never buy love, a gift from another should always be considered a noble act toward that goal in friendship.

      Whether received or not, it is up to each of us to accept its terms of offership.

  15. Drawing is a curious word…
    I’m not saying this word is the one fenn implied in his comment; a word that is key, { I think that basically relates to the first couple of clues} However, it seems to me to be a word of importance… not unlike many words in the poem.
    Drawing in one aspect relates to something that is happening, coming near.
    ~ (something) pull or move in a specified direction. {Note; no specific one action for how this occurs}.
    ~ move in a slow steady way. {drawing ‘ever’ -steadily and always- near?}
    ~ come to or arrive at a point in time or a specified point in a process. {Ha! there’s ‘time’ again, not unlike ‘place’; a place in time or situation}
    ~ to reveal or do something.
    ~ reach (a conclusion) by deduction or inference from a set of circumstances. { set of circumstances… that always is drawn to by ‘time’?}

    Drawing is a curious word when looking at it with its multiple meanings and in combination with other words neighboring the same usages… ‘time’ involvement is just one of those same usages.

    ‘Time’ doesn’t always mean of seconds, minutes and hours.
    Time; progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.
    { something / event that is ‘ever’ {always} drawing { come to or arrive at a point in time} nigh {near}.

    Now, some might say, ‘time’ is not a word in the poem. Yep, it’s not… but many words that are, do.

    • Drawing can also mean “to take out” as in “drawing a name out of a hat”.
      I think that would make it an antonym of “Put in”, the same way that “bold” is opposite “meek”. In my opinion, there may be others.

      -Lori

      • Lori,
        Opposite ideas for wording in the poem makes me nervous… For two reasons;
        Straight forward
        Plain English
        However, I do see what you’re saying. In the case of antonym usage, how do we know which are meant to be opposite?
        Does beginning point imply our ending point as well?

        • Seeker,

          I wasn’t talking about coded messages.

          Jake got what I meant. If you ‘put in’ to a river, at some point you need to get out.

          and LaCubana, LOL!

          -Lori

      • I agree Lori,
        Logical and straightforward.
        There you go!
        You put in and then you take out!
        Sounds nautical to me.

          • Maybe some time you will elaborate on your comment.
            I don’t see anything in your comment that helps in any way to contribute to the chase or this conversation…lol

    • Comments on Words-

      To an etymologist, every word is curious, as you posit, so be glad you’re not an etymologist!

      In terms of the title of this thread…..

      Look, FF never explicitly says: “Yeah, sure. There is a ‘key’ word in the poem.” He really just says one word will help more than the others. So, picking apart each and every word in the poem is rather extreme and also daunting from an etymological standpoint. Perhaps in trying to figure out what FF meant by this, we ought to ask ourselves which word is likely to be more helpful than the others and why? I imagine if we knew either of those things we would also know what FF meant.

      That said, if anyone insists on associating this “word” with the notion of “key,” it would be helpful to determine what is meant by “key.” What are some possibilities?

      1. Key can mean principle (as in lead or first).
      2. Key(s) unlock things.
      3. Certain objects have a key.
      4. There are key(s) to cities (this one is more figurative).
      5. Key(s) are generally placed in holes.
      6. Turning a key is usually the action taken to do the unlocking.
      7. Key(s) (at least the kind that unlock something) need something to unlock.
      8. Key(s) on maps help the onlooker be able to read the map. (I like this one!)
      9. Key(s) on maps tell us what the rest of the things on the map mean. (And this one.)

      And perhaps it should also be pondered:

      10. Where are key(s) usually kept?

      Not that any of this will help find the chest, but a thought process nonetheless.

      Side Note: Has FF ever been asked what his favorite word is?
      This question could be asked in the general sense or in terms of the poem. Just curious.

      -Ann

    • As Seeker noted, “drawing” is a curious word to use. Ever drawing is a curious phrase as well. Ever, to me, seems to indicate whatever the end is, it is always drawing nigh. So, what is always drawing nigh? Death comes to mind. Death is the end of life and it is always getting closer as each moment passes. But this seems a little too easy to be the answer to the clue, though still possible (what do I know).

      Another way to interpret this line in the poem could be that the end of something is always pointing or directing left. With a little imagination, one could envision their compass arrow always pointing left (north) as they travel east. The line says the end is ever drawing nigh. The end could be the end of the arrow on the compass, the arrowhead, that is always drawing nigh as you travel east. So, east? Arrowhead east? Arrow head east?

      I feel silly now about to propose the obvious, but what if the poem once all of the clues are solved, tells of us a few locations and directions to/from them to the TC? I know what you’re thinking.. DL, you’re a genius. Thank you. But I digress. What I mean is what if the words/names/phrases in the poem that are interpreted from the clues give the name or description of a specific location when they’re all put together from the first clue to the last? Then perhaps the clues would need to be re-solved differently. For example, for the big picture maybe “the end is ever drawing nigh” means “arrowhead east”, part of a location or description of one. But once the big picture location is known, “the end is ever drawing nigh”, could simply mean the end of the chase is getting ever closer from wherever you are at HOB or NPFTM. Maybe “death”, as I noted earlier, is actually the answer and somehow death relates to where you go next.

      I haven’t gotten this thought out too thoroughly but I did find it interesting. A poem that is written to be solved in layers would certainly make me feel like an architect and without looking at the big picture to identify your initial location, WWWH just seems to be a guess.

      Food for thought I suppose.

      • The poem is layered, that’s what makes it so difficult. IMO, you have the poem at face value, you have the solve for the “x” on a map, (the poem solve), and you will have some of the clue references found on the path to the chest. The clues that could not be solved. All will mesh together nicely.

        Now I don’t know what you mean death has something to do with it, I don’t think those that have passed have an advantage, and I’m sure f would never consider having “death” come into play for whatever reason within the chase, so that idea, IMO, is ridiculous.
        Also, no matter what, in the end, there will not be any guessing. If someone policing their solve, sees that they guessed anywhere, then most likely, they are wrong.
        But as far as the layers, who really knows how many. Most likely more then 2.

        • What I meant is, maybe death is part of a theme for the poem. After all, being face to face with death is one of the big inspirations for f creating all of this so I don’t feel that it is ridiculous to consider death to have some sort of relation to the clues in the poem.

    • Seeker

      Many words in that sentence are curious. End, ever, drawing and nigh all have relation to time. They are hard to decipher ff’s meaning. IMO

      • Sam,
        Yep, Many words in the poem are also… not just that line.
        One of my points was, with the word “drawing” there is a usage / meaning of; *come to or arrive at a point in time or a specified point in a process*
        This meaning always have something to do with movement, and more about a situation one might need to consider… “In a process”

        Now, if we also consider the multiple meanings of any or all the words in the poem; such as “place” to be of a situation one can be in… the next question in this line of thinking would be… what is NPFTM all about, if it might be something else other than a physical place?

        The difficult part of understanding what we read is, to understand how the words can be used in different manners… My major example is how; “Take It In” can be of an observation vs. a movement.
        So, words like drawing don’t always have to be of a physical movement; for example; water flow. The idea is to see how every word / phrasing of words can be utilized to fit and explanation of how the poem can be read as.

        I think PosionIvy might be saying that by the “layer Idea” posted above.

        Distant Logic, also sees how words can relate to the idea to death… I can see many words in the poem that have this meaning attached to them. So, can death be a type of theme to consider when attempting to solve what a clue represents? Sure, why not? I have posted about just that idea many times in the past.

        The idea of Multiple Meanings and Usages of words and phrases simply gives a different perspective of what the poem could be relaying, and that includes points on GE [ which in of itself is a map ]. However, IF all we do is read the poem as all being points on a map [GE]… being 9 points… what happens to direction and/or instruction being possible clues?

        For example; If reading the poem as an observational style solution; “Take It In” creates the idea of “down” just might be a direction of *looking south* on a GE and botg [ that is an instruction, rather than, a direction of movement ] because of how the poem is read as observing from the staring point.

        So lets play with stanza 2 for a moment. What do we have? Words that mean observing, look, studying something that is in a certain direction to view something else… having using directions and instructions to do so… and we could have the idea of a word of importance {key?}… IT… as: *Begin observing [IT as what to do] where warm waters halt.*
        And like I have said… if all a reader does is read the poem as only points to stomp to, then they will never see how this idea can form stanza 3 as possible instruction, rather than, movement of the search. It just a different perspective.

        Death can bring on a different interpretation as well. Unfortunately, my reading of the poem in this manner lead me to the idea of a type of graveyard or cemetery [not always a human graveyard. Maybe *Distant Logic* has other thoughts… but at least he’s adjusting his thoughts for a different reading words and phrase in the poem, other-than, a traditional style reading of a precondition notion 9 different points is a must, and possible spread out over miles of land and water.

        But, IMO, you hit the nail on the head. In just that line alone we have many words that mean many different things [ usages ] and many that mean the same to each other. I guess it all falls down to, thinking the right thoughts.
        Difficult but not impossible?

        In the media section there is this interview;
        ***A Columbus, OH radio Station aired this interview with Forrest on December 3rd, 2015. It’s HERE.
        {I think this is the correct interview… it may have been a SF pod cast which I can’t locate at this time}
        Unfortunately the above link it keeps saying ‘permission denied’ but it use to work. It might work for you… I have might have my security system set up somehow that it won’t allow access.
        Anyways…
        Part of the conversation was about; how he worked on the poem for 15 years and many draft he went through ~ “I looked up words and definitions of words and change them, went back and rebooted, It {the poem} turned out exactly like I wanted… the results are what I wanted.”
        I wrote down that conversation for my ‘own’ reviewing from the audio… the quote is word for word… But it was not the whole conversation.

        MY point: if that is what he did… I’m doing the same.

        • Seeker,
          I am just curious if you have your own BOTG solve posted anywhere that I could read?

          I would be interested to see how you worked through a solve from your perspective. Obviously, it would be a failed attempt, but I am more interested in the process you use.

          Thanks,

          -Lori

          • https://dalneitzel.com/2019/08/17/whatarewelookingfor/

            Lori, this is my most recent theory [if this is what your looking for]… there are a couple more different theories / perspectives on how I can read the poem, also posted on this site.
            Just type in ‘Seeker’ in the search bar and you can find them there.
            But, warning… they are not for the meek, lol, or the diehard point to point stomper.
            No BOTG solve for me as of yet, IF you meant, an actually ‘field excursion.’

          • Seeker,

            Thank you for that. I will peruse them later, but I was curious if you had made any attempts to actually search, or if all of this is just conjecture.

            That doesn’t sound the way I mean it. I am not trying to demean what you are doing in any way. I am open to any perspective that might help us put our hands on Indulgence. I was looking for a “transaltion(?)” from theory-craft to real world investigation.

            No offense intended.

            -Lori

          • Lori,

            Anything called a theory/solve/general solve, needs testing.
            I personally don’t believe we will find all the answers on a map and just hop, skip and jump our way to the hide.
            My question has always been; can solving of the clues be known beforehand, or in the field?
            My idea is both… yet… not completely.

            I think we need to finalize things in the field that we just can’t do at home. Or at least would be extremely difficult to do “precisely”

            The simple version / explanation is;
            The “planning and observing” part of the task.
            Yep, we should be able to figure out what is needed to be done, beforehand, but not totally finished, just by knowing what it is we should do… we need to complete the poem as it unfolds in the field.
            Call that the confidence idea, if ya like.

            In theory…. of course. But we need to have certainty of the location..first and foremost.. before the path [the clues] is direct, line of thinking.

            To stay on topic: I think… the word of importance here is; observe. Which indicates what “begin IT” may refer to when we read “take it in” as well, and all revolving around WWsH reference.
            LOL even IF we have the right location… we need to know what WWsH is and WHY we need it.

            The hassle for this theory… like any theory and/or method attempted… is we need to know where we have to be at to get the ball rolling. Location Location Location… then have the understanding of how the clues leads one to the blaze and the chest.
            I just see that ‘process’ differently than most.

          • Seeker,

            I get what you are saying, and I do agree.
            Once I pieced together my general solve, I began looking at ATFs to see if there was anything that would refute my solution to the clues. So far, I have not found anything that does, and quite a bit to reinforce it. But I must be on the ground to find the blaze, which leads to finding the chest.

            What I also realized is exactly what FF meant when he said to start with WWWH and solve each clue in consecutive order, that you cannot start in the middle.

            A good example is looking for HoB. There are so many possible HoBs, that if you start there and then try to find a WWH that is connected via canyon down, you will find many, many locations… none of which is correct.

            BUT, if you focus on solving WWWH, then follow the clues in order, you will know if you are on track because you will find the correct HoB. If you can’t find HoB, then obviously WWWH is wrong and it’s time to start over.

            So, yes, I agree that MUCH research and preparation is needed before going out to look. Unless you have unlimited time and money and can spend every waking hour walking all over the Rockies. Not recommended, even if FF said you can find the chest in any weather (paraphrasing).

            -Lori

  16. I think the key word is – it – the i is the creek with the dot on top is hob. The t is the road that goes up and the line across is the road that goes north and south and that is it

      • thanks moody that’s what I get out of the poem and that’s what I found that, that’s how my solve goes

    • Actually, there is a part of the poem that says “that I must go”. So, maybe it’s not “it” but just the “t”. Maybe a searcher is looking for a “t”.
      Fighter pilots “cross the ‘t'” so to speak when an enemy is in their crosshairs. Maybe the “t” is something you cross. Who knows, right? Of course, would still need to know where, lol.

      • Here is a little experiment I did with letters, and counting letters. Not helpful in the less I’m sure, but interesting nonetheless:

        X is the 24th letter of the alphabet
        Treasures is the longest and only 9 letter word in the poem
        I is the 9th letter of the alphabet – I have gone alone in there (alone in the poem?)
        there are 9 clues in the poem
        the last line of the poem is 24
        9 letters into the last line is t – following this letter are the letters i and t
        t is the 20th letter of the alphabet
        the 20th line, 9th letter is t and the letter previous to it is i. The two letters after it are t and i
        The two letters after the 9th letter in the 9th line are i t
        ‘To the gold’ is 9 letters

        And take it in the canyon down – 9th letter T, 8th and 10th letter is I
        I give you title to the gold. – 9th letter T, 10th letter I, 11th letter T
        So why is it that I must go – 9th letter t, 8th letter I, tenth letter T
        I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak. – 9th letter T, 10th letter I, 11th letter
        In what might be the 9th clue (If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,) the 24th letter is T
        Look quickly down, your quest to cease, – 24th letter is T

        • Wow! How can you argue with “IT” must have the X!

          Sorry, too hard to pass up that (IT?) opportunity! IMO

        • Aaron,

          Quite fun and interesting. Agree that it likely isn’t helpful, but it makes you wonder if FF was aware of IT!!!!!! (Now I’m laughing!)

          -Ann

        • Strange. Wasn’t “IT” an Addam’s Family character… Cousin “IT”, I believe.

          If I’m not mistaken, that would make “IT” a Mary Lou or Billy Bob…

          HhhhHmmm… you take your pick.

          IMO

  17. If you go back to where Forrest Fenn said that you will find FF said words not word. now how can we find a word that will help more than the rest? if we don’t know all the words. we know A and The is important words but not a key word. Drawing post talks about Drawing as time. and can be a key word and i think it’s right but that is A key word but not The key word. that word only helps one thing at what point in time are you nigh (near). The key word that will help the most has to help with all the clues not just one or two ? then you have the nouns important words but not all as a key word. nigh; is a key word the ; states as a filler to a different word. poem is designed to rhyme and states the words have been changed to rhyme so what is the word that don’t rhyme is that a key word. then you have FF interview no secret and ff said a secret; is just a story that has not been told or a untold stories. secret is a key word but is it the key word can that help with all the clues. then you have new and old, past and present mirrored to new and old to make it rhyme ? then you have water high mirrored which should be high water which is a big fishing term possible a key word but not the key word. Now The key word that will help the most and helps with all clues and hints is “riches” can you find what FF said and how it works.

    • maybe it’s not the actual word itself. Maybe it’s the placement of that word that is the take-away. I highly doubt one word will help solve all clues. But we will need to solve the last clue, and the placement of a word might just help with that, as a number.
      There must be some kind of number system used somewhere. A number has to pop up somewhere in a solve, or we couldn’t pin-point the chest. If the word that is key is a word in the poem, and that word is, let’s say, the 97th word, then maybe the 97 becomes the take-away. Maybe that coincides to f’s age in the Summer of ’97, or 66. The 6th letter in the alphabet is “F”. Maybe it’s about that number, “66”, and two other numbers in f’s life that are important, 80 and 57. Added together may be the 9th clue, or 203. 203′ is around 200′, who knows, I don’t think so, but my point is the placement of such a word that may be what searchers are missing.

          • this only proves the point ff said if you don’t have WWWH you have nothing. so how do you find WWWH well that’s easy “key words” and how do you find the key words in the poem. well ff said that too. read the poem over and over till you under stand it. so the question is do you under stand the poem. lets start with the first key word it tell you how the poem works to unlock new key words. which unlock the mystery of WWWH none as my secret. with that i will leave you with “the answers i already know” ? is this what you think. is it the answers ff already know or if you got the first key word right you would know now ; works I; is it you? the answers you already know. is this ff saying the poem is backwards. did ff give us the answers and not the questions in the form of a question we are all looking for the answers to but to find the question to.

      • i done know but i well look at it that way and see if any thing happens i’ll let you know

        • i done see any thing that would stand out to that effect. the numbers not line up to any thing i have. the letters don’t make cense to the words or the words changed to. your more than happy to go that way if you think there is something there let me know.

      • Like saying a word that is key.

        What makes you think THAT is key?

        Which actually it is. THAT is in tight focus with FEW.
        (And, it’s not so much the word, but the placement of the word).

        Can’t believe the answer to why is in the medicine wheel, and a few ATF’s, along with the book. Dude is sneaky. You know he’s having a few laughs with just this one comment. Probably hasn’t stopped laughing since he was walking back to his car.

  18. SC 179 “How can I say a line better and keep it in the same flavor as the others? Is this sentence too predictable? Do I want to misspell a word to make the reader stop and look it up, and maybe feel a need to respond? It’s okay if the reader wants to work with me.f”
    SC 164 “THIS MYSTERIOUS VESTIGE OF A SAILING PAST, SHAPPEND BY MYRIAD WINDS AND WAVES, OCCUPIES MY HAND AT LAST, SUBJECT TO WHATEVER WHIM MY MIND, IN ITS WANDERINGS, CRAVES. f” Placed on blog just before 01/12/17, I show it here to illustrate how Forrest will use a misspelled words, like the word KNOWLEGE which he cast in bronze on bells and jars to imphasise a point, note my (mispelled) point in this case. I think ff’s point is, and I aellege its a “LEdGE”, as in where something might be hidden in the Rockies, as in our poem “Look quickly down” at this place from the blaze and your quest to cease; your poem travel is in tarry scant mode and you see a marvel gaze when you look down. If in fact there is a LEDGE, tarry scant at that place.

    None of those Winter Thoughts above is the word that is key, because it is IMO and has no meaning with out the other words, it is Where Warm Waters Halt, not just the key word halt, but where it halts and drains, cause from there, its just, too far to walk, but it may also be the home of Brown, where we need to paddle up from, Ardi? Can a beavers home be just the mud and sticks it uses to build it’s house or is it really the creek where Mr Brown makes his home? Does a beaver have a paddle, does it make a home somewhere? These words just creek along, but they keep flowing somewhere..

    TT

    • So what if I could show you a place that Little Indy might find easily on Google Earth and it could easily be the spot Where Warm Waters Halt?

      So simple a child who speaks English or Spanish can find it?

      TT

      • What if those Warm Waters halt at someones home? Lets call it Browns house, after all it could burn down, it could wash away, but Mr Browns real home it Where? A Creek Ardi.

        TT

  19. Oz10,

    In thanks for your help regarding the notion of “key word” as our exchanges have suggested, and in light of the potential “solve” they have led to, I wanted to share with you a similar “key word” albeit slightly different. I will give you an indirect reference to it first, to see whether you connected with my previous method.

    The “key word” I am thinking of is a spin off of a word in the poem, and marks an x on the map.

    If this peaks your interest and you have figured out what I mean, then I suggest you look around and see what’s left if I am right. At this point I have to brag about how cleverly the previous sentence is worded. I think FF would be proud and to anyone who figures out what it and the indirect reference mean then you will appreciate it as well.

    -Ann

    • if “I” think your saying is right that is a key word but not the key word that well help the most but on the right path to tread throw the willie’s of nature and circumstances. hears a hint to the key word: it will confirm all.

      • Richard,

        Since I do not know to which word you are referring I cannot say what I think about it. The “key word” I allude to so craftily above does not lead to some mystery location I haven’t already shared. The word is “tired” and it led me to the same location I had previously been led to by other means. For Oz10 who knows how he helped me identify a different “key word” I assume he knows what to do with the word tired. It literally puts an x on the map. For everyone else, you can just as easily discover the location by following other posts I have made.

        As for your “hint” and the rest of your remarks, the sentence structure and wording are a bit garbled, whether due to typos or for some other reason, and therefore don’t make much sense, at least not to me.

        It is no secret I am willing to share whatever ideas I may have about all of this. But to those who respond seriously I have been inclined to try and share with before the rest. So when I post a cryptic post it’s usually for a specific person who should be able to decipher it. Plus it’s a fun way to share information. I’m sure FF would agree.

        If you have a different “key word” Richard, I would certainly be interested to hear which word that might be and why. Otherwise, I really have no idea what you are talking about!

        And all remarks here are IMO.

        -Ann

        • Ann – I am curious about your focus on “tired”. How can a word put an “X” on the map? You suggest your key word is not in the poem, which goes beyond FF’s statement that all we need is the poem.

          • KTR,

            Not sure how much you’ve read in terms of my posts (which have only been in existence for a few days now), but I will try to clarify.

            So I had posited a question previously regarding the poem and the map both used by FF. Oz10 helped me pinpoint a “key word,” for lack of a better term. Key, referring to a map key. So you can look back through my previous posts for a better resolve on that.

            With that in mind, there is an alternate “key word” using the same methodology except that in this case that word is “tired.” And while the former keyword Oz10 and I discussed is more literal, this one requires a “spin off” (pun intended) in order to be used to locate the literal x present on the map. So, without giving this fun riddle away completely (although following my posts will surely give you the answer), I would just recommend thinking of an alternate/related word for the term “tired.” The alternate/related word can be found literally on the map. And as an additional help, my craftily created sentence I brag about above will make much more sense once you have the right word and have located it on the map. If you wish to know which map I am referring to, it is simply the map FF uses to indicate the search area. If this doesn’t help, I can always spell it out for you, but what fun would that be!

            -Ann

          • PS-

            The “key word” is indeed in the poem (IMO). I agree all we need is the poem. If I suggested the key word is not in the poem it was a slip up in intent. “Tired” is the key word I was referring to. In order for it to be used in the method previously discussed it only refers to a different word literally on the map, whereas the “key word” postulated by my discussion with Oz10 was quite literally on the map. Hope that helps clear things up a bit.

            All IMO of course.

            -Ann

    • Ann,
      You have said you won’t be doing a BOTG search.
      I will be going to a family reunion in northern CO the last week of May, and the plan is to head to Yellowstone through WY after that. If I can be of service, let me know. It’s too early to make promises about when/where I am going, but that is the plan so far.

      -Lori
      LoriDee605@gmail.com

      • Lori,

        You’ve got mail! I would very much be interested in working with you in general. I won’t say too much here but I look forward to corresponding and sharing ideas. I would say information but let’s face it, we are all just throwing around a bunch of idea. Hopefully someone’s ideas will stick one of these days! I look forward to finding out.

        -Ann

    • Ann, let me think about that. I’m working on two other difficult riddles but I’d like to find out what you mean. I’ll get back to you soon.

    • Hello Ann, I tried. Using some imagination I can come up with two or three different options. One of them is using the explicit definition of tired, by that I mean the one that holds the tired/ weak line of thinking. The other ‘not in a dictionary’ definition has a couple of funny matches but not so sure if that is what he meant. Well, the word ‘weak’ is an adjective and it could be used on it too with some more imagination. Btw, you were right about that ‘grand’ gesture. I didn’t get it at first.

      • Oz10,

        I appreciate the efforts. I believe I may have reveled the connection elsewhere as I don’t see it on this thread. So to save you further trouble the use of “tired” could be “Wheeler.” It is a stretch, but some have suggested that tired refers to the use of wheels or tires. It is only with this interpretation that our method points directly to a location on the map. But then again someone could also take WWWH to mean Agua Fria, which would have the same effect. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that there is a direct connect between the poem and the map. Interestingly enough, another searcher has pointed out an intriguing anomaly, which for the time being I must keep undisclosed. I will check with the searcher and see if I cannot put you in touch. In the meantime, keep me posted if you come across anything further in our poem/map connection. All IMO.

        -Ann

          • My thought is that knowing what IT is helps us marry to the poem to the map. IT being a key word that represents a geographical feature.

          • Hello Aaron-You are the only one that has mentioned IT as being key that I have read about other than myself..That one word Gives alot of insight–Just one man’s opinion..

          • Let me simplify my I riddle idea:

            What goes alone into an area and has bold treasures, new and old on it? This thing holds the secret where.

            Apply this thing to IT and find WWH, and so on.

          • Aaron, I was only wondering if that feature will be one mentioned in the poem which if we follow the ‘it’ descriptions in order, then it could not be a canyon or warm waters. The only other possible feature will be a creek if no guesswork was needed and only using the poem. But I see you have something else in mind. What goes ‘alone’ in an area and has bold treasures? It depends on your definition of bold treasures. It could be the whole range of the Rocky Mountains in a big picture kind of way.

          • Yes, I suppose it does depend on ones definition of bold treasures, but I tend to lean toward what I think FF’s definition would be. The hints in the book may be simply ideas of things in nature that he likes.

        • Ann, yep that was one I found and that’s what I meant with the ‘not in the dictionary definition’. Another stretch using the same line of thinking will be Durango, Co. There is Agua Fria, Glaciers, Snowmass and many many others. WWWH should be more specific, if not then something else is needed.

          • Pretty sure it’s not Durango! I’ll eat Jake’s hat if it is, haha. I have it on pretty good but not absolute authority that Forrest told someone searching here that “they need to get a new map”. Pretty sure they got here the same way you are proposing to. Which isn’t to say I haven’t put a few solutions together in my beautiful backyard. I mean, how could I resist?

          • Oz10,

            Yeah, the obvious question is how directly connected are the poem and the map, if they are connected at all. I feel like they are. Is it by way of a key word or word that is key? I don’t know. The whole idea originated under the premise that maps have keys and clearly the map FF has provided does not contain the usual key. He has indicated there is one word that will help more than the others in response to whether or not there was a key word. He did indeed verify the more helpful word is in the poem but did not call it key. Is this more helpful word intended to be used as a key or will it just help us understand the rest of the poem better? Could it be the chaptalization of Brown and FF’s reminder that the nouns are important. And if we knew the answer to any of these questions, how would we know if not with the chest in our hands? Is it something that can be known prior to BOTG? I’d like to think there is a more direct connection between the map and the poem. And as I have often referenced before I will do so again here. I am reminded of the map and poem from The Goonies. Every kid knows that any treasure hunt needs a treasure map. I don’t believe FF chose to use the map he did just to show us the general area in which the chest could be found. Treasure maps are intended to lead us to the treasure.

            If the poem IS the map, that is certainly not helpful unless we can translate or transfer the information onto a topological map. Clearly it’s a map in the sense that it will lead us to the treasure. But It shows us neither topology or geography. It does have words that may reference topology (below, high) and/or geography (canyon, warm waters) but that is where we are left to make the connection. Seems it is this connection that we are all missing……All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Sally, there won’t be any pieces of my hat left because I’ll eat it all if the treasure is found anywhere in Colorado or New Mexico.

          • Ann, there could be a ‘key’ connection between the poem and the map but as far as I know, nobody has come up with it. If there is one, the method used shows no recognizable pattern but that is what we have to figure out. I think is important too, otherwise why create and publish that large map with the chosen information in it? Let me know if you have any more ideas on how to key the poem to the map. 🙂

          • Oz10,

            I am glad to see someone so interested in trying to connect the poem to the map. As a relative newbie to the Chase, that seems like an obvious must. The method you and I have been discussing is perhaps the most obvious and direct method, though as we have seen, it too can become shady and gray. I completely agree with you that there must be just as much purpose to the map used by FF as there is to the poem. And certainly figuring that out would be key indeed!! An alternate theory about connecting the poem and the map has recently been brought to my attention by another searcher who was exploring the method you and I have been discussing. While I pride myself on being open with my ideas and thoughts here, I equally pride myself on integrity. In discussing this new theory with the rightful discoverer, I have given my word not to disclose information shared in confidentiality, and as such I will not share the new theory here. But if and when the time should come to divulge the idea, either by myself or by my co conspirator, I will make sure you are among the first to know! That does not preclude me from sharing other ideas not discussed in confidentiality, or from exploring further options with you. I hope you understand and I look forward to further exchanges with you. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • poisonivy,

            While you don’t call it a cipher your method sure is elaborate. I suppose the only question I have now is what does the Bighorn medicine wheel have to do with FF? AS a disclaimer, I have not read any of FF’s book, nor do I have any in my possession. So while I would like t take a look at the things you are discussing, I cannot. And do you mean to suggest that the “I’ve done it tired” refers to using this medicine wheel? If true, I don’t see any direct indicator of that except your extraction of ill from will which to me falls under the anagram/cipher methodologies. I know it has been posted elsewhere, but FF has been known to mention not to mess with the poem. Seems like pulling words from words does just that. The FF clarification was most helpful. If the fs had been capitalized I think I would be more supportive of that idea. Combining will and wood to come up with Willwood is a bit of a stretch but since you are taking effort as the mark of the beginning of a trail I can see where your trail of will to wood occurs. It is all certainly a stretch of the imagination. I don’t know that there is a good reason FF would want us to assume the fs in effort refer to the I (or himself) in the first line of the poem. While I certainly understand your thought process much better now, I think it is rather complicated for purposes of the Chase. I’m not sure FF would have us put together such an elaborate scheme just to come up with a name on a map. I suppose one last note would be where are your WWWH and HOB? You seem to jump right to the end which doesn’t jive well with some of the things FF has said over the years. I do like the cave you found, though I know it has also been mentioned multiple times on these threads that FF said that the chest was not in a cave. Your “in the wood” reminds me of the micro film hiding spot in the movie The Rock! That is actually not a bad idea. I have questioned the use of wood as it could/should deteriorate over time. Even a forest could burn down and take years to grow back which may deter some searchers from looking in that area. Petrified wood seems to me to be a likely candidate if indeed actual wood is involved. It will stand the test of time much more than a tree or forest. Is it possible that the chest is hidden in a petrified tree? Sure. I think that is something we may only ever know with BOTG. Keep imagining, but don’t ;et your imagination get too far off track. If you have ever played any word association games before, you know you can star with apple and end with zebra and cover a whole host of words completely unrelated as a whole but connected in a long chain one by one. So if FF had written the apple did he mean zebra? I doubt it. But someone could certainly come up with a log chain of associations to get from apple to zebra. Or even a short one such as apples? Horses eat apples, and we are what we eat, so apples are horses/ But zebras are related to horses, so zebras must be apples too. So apples must mean zebras. See where things could get hairy? Just some thoughts and all IMO.

            -Ann

          • Ugh, this reply ended up in the wrong spot. It was a reply to OZ asking “The geographical feature, is it a guess or one mentioned in the poem?”

          • Hi Aaron-I had this figured out a couple years ago but steered away from IT for some brain fog reason..I think I was going with the flow for a while..I am now back on the straight and narrow, as apposed too the wide and spacious..Not saying too much,For obvious reasons..

        • Funny you mention “wheels”, Ann. IMO, the word that is key can be derived from a wheel. A couple of ATF’s support the idea. It’s always better to use f’s words instead of just trying to guess. Bighorn medicine wheel is the hint. Along with “romantic historian”. It also will give you an idea of how far “to walk”.
          I have to wonder where everyone gets these words that they use for that line. Arguing if the word is in the poem or not. If it’s important, it will be in the poem. If it’s not in the poem, why waste time with it. Basically would be saying it’s not worth the effort. Either it’s important, meaning it’s in the poem, or, it’s not that important and not worth the time to try to figure it out. If someone says that they found the word, it’s not in the poem, but it opened up everything, then they are just flat wrong, IMO.
          The bottom line is, the word is in the poem, and it actually can be found, without guessing.

          • poisonivy,

            I am of the opinion that there is a word in the poem that is more helpful than the others as FF has duly noted. I just don’t know which word, obviously, or how it would be more helpful. Is it really a “key” and if so what kind? Does it relate to the map in the way Oz10 and I are trying to figure out, or does it just enhance some sort of understanding about the rest of the words in the poem. I give the following for instance: this more helpful word is like finding a tool (word) in a toolbox (poem) and, assuming we have chosen the right tool, trying to figure out what it does! Maybe we should use the same deductive reasoning I suggest in narrowing down the search area. We could eliminate words that may not seem to fit the notion of being more helpful than the others. No, I don’t have any suggestions about such an approach at this time but it may help to narrow the focus. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Here’s something you can look into if you like. This would only fall under the “hint” category.
            The Bighorn medicine wheel is a map, IMO. A possible map to bells. Try to put some ATF’s together that have to do with bells, the year 12016, opposites, 24, rainbow degrees, (a rainbow halo in the mountains is seen at 22 degrees, look up rainbow halo), and Dr. Eddy’s diagram. Using 12016 as 12,20,16, get the opposites of these spokes, (27,5,1).
            Look at the difference between them, look at what it looks like, add it all up, add spoke 24 and it’s opposite to it, use TToTC, and find only a “few” are in tight focus with a word “that” is key. Seeing as how those words aren’t really the key, but their placement.
            Remember line 3 of the poem, and page 137 in the book. The “secret”.
            Now you know why f said that the minimum amount of clues needed is one, the last one.
            Remember, these would all fall under “hints”, but they are hints that help with knowing clues.
            First read, this may not make sense, but just give it a try, still have snow on the ground, we all have a little time, you may find something as far as a “map” that you are looking for.
            Doesn’t just getting a map of the Rockies and finding places that are coincidental to the poem just seem wrong? Did f really plan the chase this way? Everyone would start with GE, wouldn’t f know that? What if it’s a different map that f is actually talking about? Of course, this is all up to the searcher, but combing GE, does that sound right?
            A map “of” the Rockies, maybe we all interpret that line incorrectly. Maybe the map is something “of” the Rockies, or coming from…

          • poisonivy,

            I am not familiar with the Medicine wheel. Maybe you can point me directly to it. I would be interested in taking a look and sharing my thoughts, though I am not sure the elaborate nature of your line of thinking is what FF had in mind for the Chase. And looking over the exchanges here I just want to add that I neither know which word may be deemed key or what key means in context of the poem. I lean toward the more helpful mature FF mentions. All IMO.

            =Ann

          • Like I said Ann, it would fall under hints. The Bighorn medicine wheel in Wyoming. Did f intend for it to be used in the chase? I don’t know. But there are things that are too coincidental. With the ATF about the “romantic historian” in the year 12016, you have to ask yourself, why that year? Why not 12015, or 12020, or whatever. I believe it is planned, and fills a reference point for some of his other ATF’s. Example, the key word.
            With 12016, you can see three numbers: 12,20,and 16.
            If you put these on the medicine wheel, their opposites are 27,5, and 1. When you draw lines, it looks like an asterisk on the wheel. The difference between these spokes is 15.
            Another combo of spokes is 24 with an opposite of 9. Again, 15 difference. So you have 12 opposite 27, 20 opposite 5, 16 opposite 1, and 24 opposite 9. The difference of all being 15.
            Add them all up, you get 114.
            (side note: 15+15+15+15=60, 1+1+4=6 60+6=66, 6th letter of alphabet is F. so FF).
            Okay, if you look at page 15 of the book, it is the only page with an asterisk. If you count all the words on this page, you get 114.
            Now, the ATF, “A few are in tight focus with a word that is key”.
            On this page, the 113th word is “few”. If you look at the poem, the 113th word is “that”.
            You now have a reference for the word “few”, and the word “that” is key. It’s not so much the word, but it’s placement, 113.
            It all is just a way to get the answers using f’s words, and a little imagination.
            The basis, and the reasons for some of his stories/ATF’s.
            Back to the wheel, he buried another 8 bells. You now have 8 vectors that may be a map, to the bells. The one important one being down the 24th spoke. Which happens to form a 22 degree angle, which could be his rainbow.
            Add Dr. Eddy’s diagram to the wheel, and you have a strong hint of where to possibly be looking.
            You want to know how far “to walk”, you have your reference to the word “few”.
            Again, this is outside the poem, so take it as much. There is a reason he used the stories that he did, says things the way he says them. If you watch in interviews, he will hesitate at times, watching what he says. It’s all very well planned.
            Take the 200′ statement. If your spot was say 194 feet from a trail, in the woods, would you totally discount the spot because you know that you need to be at least 200′?
            What if you know that it’s 200′ from the chest and that walking 194′ would put you at the spot, but you would have to bend down to the ground to get the chest. F is 6’1″, so now that 194′ becomes 194′ + 6′, or the 200′.
            It’s things small like this that you have to watch for, because discounting a spot 194′ away would be a big mistake.
            Most all vet searchers have a little niche in their solves that answer why f did what he did, and used the stories he has used. Trial and error, finding answers through failure, seeing the other side of the coin, and making sense of the senseless. It’s all a lot more fun then watching “dancing with the stars”.
            IMO, the word “that” is key, and that key is 113.
            Lol, add 80 and you get around 193, I wonder if Skippy standing up would be close to 7′. Or Skip “p”, I wonder if “Y” is 7′ tall. 🙂 Okay, just rambling.

          • poisonivy,

            I posted a reply to your last comments in this chain of the thread but I put it up above as the chain is getting hard to follow! Hope you find it and read it! Thanks for the exchange!

            -Ann

          • Ann, thanks for taking the time to read my solve theory. I think you’re right about him saying it wasn’t in a cave. There are many other interesting locations around Willwood. Thinking about the the line “take the chest and go in peace”, You’ve got Heart Mountain and Lovell in that area just to name two. But like I said in another post how do we know the “clues” lead to anything? He could just be using them as a distraction to hide the real message. It’s kind of scarey that one of his “rules” was it doesn’t matter who you are. It only matters who people THINK you are. Have you ever watched the German Playboy interview? In it he says searchers are too busy stepping on the ants while the elephants run by. What do you suppose he meant by that? He also said searchers were looking so far ahead that they can’t see what’s right in front of their face. What do you think he meant by that?

          • NoName,

            You are quite welcome. I try to reply to all posts that may be directed toward me, though with so many posts it is sometimes hard to keep up! And I reiterate that I am fairly new to all of this.

            I have not watched the Playboy interview. TO be honest, I have not watched most of the interviews. I think I’ve seen the Santa Fe and one or two others. I try not to rely on those too heavily since they came after the poem and book and therefore after the Chase was presented to the world. While I do not rule out there helpfulness, I don’t consider them to be critical. I will try to answer your questions as best as I can.

            The ants and elephants remarks seems to me like he would be referring to how many take on a microscopic approach to the Chase combing through every letter, word, comment, what have you, with a finer toothed comb than would be required for even a flea, or ant in this case. I will give you a for instance. This thread is titled The Key Word. It implies that there is a single word that is the key to (everything for lack of a better term) regarding figuring out this mystery. There are FF quotes used to scrutinize just about every single word in the poem as if something about a single word will reveal the rest of the mystery in an instant. I think in such a case you would be quite right, everything except figuring out that word would be superfluous. However, I do not think that is the case. FF has said there is one word in the poem that will help us more than the others but that all of them are needed. And that is all I get out of there being a key word, if you can even call it that. The point I am trying to make is that while we may single out any single word and ask ourselves what that word could possibly mean (stepping on ants) we would be missing the elephants! (each word is part of the larger poem and ought to be considered in conjunction with the others and not as a stand alone word). That is what I take from his remarks regarding ants and elephants. If I were a biologist and I wanted to know how the heart works, I would not make much progress if I focused on an individual cell. I will be missing the larger picture.

            While I am thinking about it, he also could have meant that while some searchers use GE to zoom in to focus on such a small area in which to fit all the clues, such as studying an ant hill in a forest, perhaps the area to be considered is traversable by elephants, a much larger portion of the same forest containing the ant hill. A better example might be if I told you that I hid a treasure chest somewhere in your house you wouldn’t confine the search t say the laundry room. Okay that example isn’t as great as I first imagined. If you don’t follow just let me know and I will try to come up with a better way of expressing the idea.

            In regards to your second question about looking so far ahead and not seeing what is right in front of one’s face I can only say this: many searchers look at the poem, and any number of other sources of information, and run straight to GE or the web and start to look up locations and words and which ones could be aligned with things said in the poem. I have said elsewhere that I not only believe the poem is most important, but I am of the belief that FF provided us with the map most useful, the one right next to the poem. Who hides a treasure without drawing a treasure map? So my guess regarding his remarks is that instead of jumping to GE or Wikipedia or the blogs, perhaps we ought to take a closer look at what he gave us initially, the poem and the map. Seems like we should be able to connect the two more directly without the aid of everything else. If I knew how to do that I would gladly share but I have not come up with that part of the puzzle yet. Speaking of puzzles, I gave a great analogy about puzzles elsewhere. I will shorten it up here.

            If someone were to give you a sealed puzzle and say put this together what would you need to accomplish the task? A picture on the box (a map if you will) would be helpful but not absolutely necessary. You may want to know what the puzzle is a picture of or at least the shape of the puzzle, but those too aren’t absolutely necessary. All you ever really need in putting together a puzzle is some sense of colors and shapes. But really each piece could be painted a very different color (which would make for an extremely interesting puzzle actually!) or you could suppose the cardboard pieces were void of color altogether. In those cases you would only need to have some sense of shapes. My point in this analogy has been to point out the difference between what is needed and what we tend to add to our list of needs in putting together a puzzle, or solving a poetic puzzle in the case of FF. I would imagine FF meant something similar in his remarks about what’s right in front of our faces. Did you know, btw, the best place to hide something is in plain sight? That’s because it’s the last place people tend to look when looking for something that is “hidden.” Our innate notion of hidden is assume some sort of concealment or camouflage so as to be “hidden” from view. But I am sure you know at least one person who has gone looking for their lost glasses while wearing the very glasses they are looking for!!

            Okay. I think I have answered your questions for the time being. Feel free to ask anything more if you wish. I hope these words have been helpful, or at the very least given you a fresh way to think of some of the things you may have been wondering about. I have enjoyed responding.

            All IMO of course.

            -Ann

  20. To All,

    I would like to add this suggestion to all commentary. FF wrote this poem as a means of leading someone to a chest he placed somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. He did so knowing that the entire world would read it. He did so prior to any interviews, emails, or other correspondence regarding further information about the poem, the chest, or anything else related to the “Chase.” And he did so knowing that not everyone would have access to any other materials other than the poem perhaps. So the idea that a girl from India could make any headway but only so much is important. It means indeed that there is a way to get a location directly from the poem without more information. While this is all IMO of course I urge others not to make more of the “Chase” than it would be for someone without access to anything other than the poem. If, the poem cannot get you there standing alone, then I would posit that either FF’s bias in knowing the answer oversimplifies the difficulty in lining things up, or more likely the meaning of the words as FF sees them has still alluded those trying to figure it all out. In either case, we should all keep FF’s intent in mind when trying to make any reasonable deductions, predictions or guesses. And we should not discredit others for their thoughts because we find fault in their ideas when they rub up against something said here or a quote there, or for any other reason not directly attributable to the poem. I could go on but I think I will pause there. Just wanted to share some general thoughts and my personal opinion on this entire ordeal.

    -Ann

    • I think just poem and map is very good idea, and alot of fun. Books get heavy in backpack on trail.

      • No need to take the book. My backpack will be empty except for water, a sandwich, and bear spray. I will need room in my pack to haul out the chest. I won’t be making two trips! LOL

        -Lori

        • Be sure and carry the bear spray in a holster on your hip, or another easy to access fast spot. Too long to access it in the back pack.

        • Hi Lori: I’d consider leaving the sandwich behind — for the same reason that you carry bear spray. 🙂

    • Ann,
      Regarding the little girl from India, here is a thought.
      Why does he start by saying he wishes to have another chest to hide somewhere… that is geographically closer to India?
      That part of the answer does seems a bit of an aberration.
      So this is what I think:
      The girl from India cannot get closer than the first two clues because the third clue is geographically further from India… but she can get mentally to the third clue and forth and so on…

      • Liv,
        What about a kid from Mr. Fenn’s hometown or a city Churchill visited?
        How does the geography location of the Appalachian mountains fit into those folks places and to little Indy?

      • Hi Liv: it’s a fun idea to explore, and an interesting geography logic problem. All of the Rockies are in the northern hemisphere, of course, as is all of India. And some part of India is positioned exactly 180 degrees away in longitude from most of the places in our 4-state region of the Rockies. So regardless of where the treasure is hidden, the Great Circle route from India will go over the Arctic Circle and then continue (mostly) south down into Rockies.

        So if Forrest was speaking strictly of geographic proximity, then if she can’t get “closer” than the first two clues, that would require clues 3-9 to all be further south of them. That would be a pretty big clue of exclusion if it was true!

        I prefer to interpret the statement as being one addressing her ability to solve clues: that she can solve the first two clues but that’s all.

        • Like I said, it’s just interesting to think about it from a geographically point of view.
          Again, as a rhetorical question, why did Forrest even mention the Appalachians, and what was going on in his mind?
          It doesn’t quite make sense unless, and maybe one can twist his words a little into “I wish I had another chest to hide closer to her”… it sounds more plausible. So, again maybe, this was his first thought and then he changed it to Appalachians to make it more fun… who knows?
          Anyhow, I wonder if you were to draw the shortest route from India to the Appalachians, would that be a little shorter (as in, at any point being further away from the North Pole then the route to the Rockies)?

          • Hey Liv… Lil’ Indie has gotten a ton of attention since Jenny fabricated the question to Fenn and it is one of those topics that does make for a lot of speculation. The *what ifs* so to speak. Thanks for bringing her up again… ha ha !
            After thinking about it for some time I came to the conclusion that because the Appalachians are in Jenny’s neck of the woods it only seemed logical that Fenn would think of that particular chain of mountains as a nod to her and the folks who have to travel much further to search. Beyond that… I don’t believe it makes a bit of difference.

          • I think Ken is right about the Appalachian tie-in to Jenny. It is also the second most prominent mountain chain in the U.S. Also, the distance from the center of India to, say, Yellowstone is actually less than it is from India to most of the Appalachians.

      • **Q. Hi Forrest, we are now aware that the poem is a map. If the poem is a map and will tell us exactly where to go, why couldn’t the little girl from India get past the first two clues? I think it’s because after solving all nine clues from home, the ocean prevents her from journeying to the precise location to retrieve the treasure chest. ~ Lagerta the Bold

        A. Dear Whoever Asked This Question, Thanks for answering it for me. f
        (5/22/17)
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-across-the-ocean/

      • Liv,

        I haven’t given much thought about the India reference. Seems to me it’s more logistical than proximity or distance. For anyone listening, does FF actually say the girl from India CAN’T get closer than the first two clues or that it would be harder for her, than say someone in the states? I guess I am looking for context. Thanks.

        -Ann

        • http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

          5Q) Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

          I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

          Above is the question and answer – Hope that this helps – JDA

          • JDA,

            Appreciate the quote for context. Doesn’t particularly help even though it answers what was actually said by FF. I imagine the little CAN’t get any closer because she is in India, but FF could have meant never able. His tidbit of the disabled doesn’t help clarify since he doesn’t remark whether they would be able. Very mysterious indeed. It does beg the question, why can’t she? I have no further thoughts at this time on the subject, Sorry.

            -Ann

          • Ann, I have an idea that the blaze is in the poem itself. Perhaps the very first line is a hint to this, (as I have gone alone in there) alone meaning it only occurs once in the poem. What if the two f’s in the word e[ff]ort was the blaze. Then maybe the word after effort (will) would be the keyword. It actually led me to a town in Wyoming called Willwood. Effort worth the cold could mean sickness instead of temperature. W[ill]wood contains the word ill in it. And even if you read the stanza with trove in it, you could say he’s describing a will. I’d be interested to see if you can find any holes in this solve or maybe something I’m missing.

          • Ann,
            Also a few posts up, the question was asked why the little girl from India can’t solve. Like you said, she is in India and the ocean prevents her from picking up the chest.

            – Lori

          • Noname6;

            You asked if anyone could find holes…

            I did a quick search of “Place Names” in Colorado, and came up with a list of 70 places that start with “Will” – like Willow Creek and Williams etc. I couldn’t find a listing of “Place Names” for N.M., WY or MT but each has a book dedicated to place names in their state so the lists must be quite long. Settling on Willwood in Wyoming seems a bit weak to me when there must be hundreds and hundreds of possibilities in the four states – but that is just me – JDA

          • NoName,

            Thank you for asking. I have seen you make a similar post elsewhere in these threads. I am not sure I follow the complete thought process. You seem to jump from one line to another without giving any sense of how they are connected. Similarly, you suggest the two fs in effort as the blaze but don’t explain what makes that so. What about a double f would be a blaze? And, assuming your thoughts are correct, how do you get from the double f blaze to will being the keyword? I also agree with JDA that will doesn’t directly connect to Willwood unless you are throwing in wood from brave and in the wood. The extraction of ill from will to be worth the cold is something I don’t think FF would require of figuring out the mystery. I have said elsewhere that I don’t support cyphers or codes. FF has been fairly clear about that. Hope this helps. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • JDA, I’m not sure I understand what you mean or why it’s relevant that many places start with will. Unless you meant that there are that many places called Willwood. It’s not as if I threw a dart at a map and that’s where the dart landed. It came to me because will came after the blaze, and the second part from brave and in the wood. The line before the blaze even says hear me all and listen good. It seems to indicate something important is coming up. It’s also in pretty close proximity to Cody and Yellowstone. So I’m sure Forrest knows that area well.

        • Ann, how I came up with FF (Forrest’s initials) from reading the first line. “As I have gone alone in there” The FF is only used once in the poem. Why I think will is the keyword is because a blaze only marks the beginning of a trail. So that would leave you to believe that the word after e[ff]ort would be of some importants. As well as the fact that effort and will can mean the same thing. So they kind of connect together. There’s also his reply to being asked if the blaze was one object. He said, “In a word – Yes” The first two lines of the trove stanza kind of sounds like he’s describing a will. And yes, I got the wood part from brave and in the wood. I wouldn’t really consider this method a cipher. It’s more of a play on words, taking words in different contexts. That’s another reason why “will” could be a good keyword because it has many definitions. Go back and watch some old videos of Forrest telling about the hunt. He always says there are 9 clues, but he never says you have to solve them all. He always says, “If you can follow the clues to the chest, you can have it.” So I’m starting to believe the majority of the clues are just smoke and mirrors. There’s an interesting location near Willwood in the Pryor Mountains. It’s an ice cave that has wooden steps at the entrance that lead to small wooden platform at the bottom. He may have hid it under that platform, which would give “worth the cold” and “brave and in the wood” a double meaning. I remember him saying that all you need is a sandwich and maybe a flashlight. There’s a picnic area beside the entrance of the cave. And obviously, you’f need the flashlight when you’re in the cave. It’s rather dark at the bottom.

          • He has used find, follow, and solve when talking about the clues. To think that some clues are smoke and mirrors “will” get you in trouble. That would mean they are not clues, they don’t get you closer to the chest. I don’t see that at all.
            I would also like to ask how you came to Willwood in the Pryor Mountains? Is it because you found “will” and “willwood” on a map? Where does the poem say to do this, or to go here?
            It sounds like you are just using coincidenses to find a spot on a map, that’s a tough sell. I also wonder how searchers have come within 200′. I think it’s most likely that we shouldn’t just pick words out of the poem and not use the entire poem. But if you like it, I wish you luck.

          • Poison, I chose will because it’s the next word after the blaze in the poem. The very first line in the poem, As I have gone alone in there. If I is Forrest and there is the poem, then wouldn’t it make sense that his initials could be the blaze? But a blaze only shows you where the trail begins so the word next to it should be of some importance. As far as the rest of the clues, don’t forget he didn’t want the chest found for hundreds of years. Having people chasing after warm waters and homes of Brown would be a clever tactic to disguise that the blaze is right there in front of you in the poem. Sort of hiding simplicity within complexity. There are a few lines in the poem that could be described as will too. Why is it that I must go (die) and leave my trove for all to seek? You could interpret that as leaving a will. The word effort can also mean will. Also, he uses the word There’ll. He contracted the word will into the word there. Another important thing to think about is if your solve is based on any information outside of the poem, it’s probably not right. He said from the start that to solve it, you only need the poem. And this method uses only the poem.

          • Plain and simple, “will” is not in the poem. And isn’t “look” the next word after blaze?
            Let’s look at an example:
            Let’s say I believe the clue lines are 5&6 of 2nd stanza, 9 of the 3rd stanza, 13&16 of the 4th stanza, 17&20 of the 5th stanza, and 22&24 of the last stanza.
            Adding up the first numbers I get- 5+9+13+17+22 = 66, the second numbers- 6,16,20,24 = 66. 66 being FF, so am I to think I’m using the poem to find the clues? Does this mean that these are the clues? Does this mean that WWWH, hoB, blaze are all found with FF? This is not a way to solve the poem. Maybe this is a hint at what the clues are, but it’s a stretch, but they are from the poem.
            If you like your solve, run with it. You know your solve better then I. But in policing it to be possible, I would question how you are following all the clues, the 200′ comment, how is the chest open to the elements when it’s in an “ice cave”? And there are a lot more questions.
            Saying some of the clues are smoke and mirrors is a tough sell. I could believe in what you are saying if you said some of the clues don’t have answers, but there are 9 clues, and that’s a fact. And all the clues are meant to get a searcher closer to the chest.
            If you somehow solved the poem and found the ice cave as an end point, and reversed engineered to get a start spot, I could see that, and you found clues on the path to the cave, fine, but, when you say, “majority of the clues are just smoke and mirrors.” That does not go with what f has said over the years. I hope this doesn’t upset you with critiquing your thoughts, hopefully you can see where the questions are that you have to address. In the end, none of us really know, so maybe in tweaking what you have “will” produce something, And to tell you the truth, I like “will” as a thought, but it’s just the way it was found just doesn’t do it for me. That’s all, I reserve the right to not know what the hell I’m talking about.:)

          • poisonivt,

            Line 22 third word “will.”

            “Your effort will be worth the cold”

            As far as the word “will” following blaze, NoName did not mean “blaze” in the poem but her concept of blaze. the double ff in “effort.” If you aren’t sure of someone’s thoughts, perhaps it’s best to ask for clarification so as not to err in your retort. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Poison, No, criticism doesn’t bother me. I’ll try to explain this once more. The very first line reads “As I have gone alone in there” If “I” is Forrest and “there” is the poem, wouldn’t it make sense that the blaze could be Forrest’s initials? Go back and look at the 6 questions he used to do. Someone asked him if the blaze was one object. He replied, “In a word – Yes.” So that could be interpreted as the blaze being literaly in one of the words of the poem. So if the FF in effort is the blaze, then the word after it (will) should be of some importance. The ice cave is exposed to the elements because there is ice in it. But that is only one of many interesting locations around Willwood. As far as me saying that the other clues may be smoke and mirrors, I just meant it would be a clever tactic to disguise another message in the poem. The 200 foot searcher? How do you know they exist? Maybe he was saying that to throw people off. Don’t forget Forrest used to be a salesman. I know everyone wants the hunt to be some elaborate National Treasure solve where you have to steal The Declaration of Independence and shadows have to align to reveal a location, but it may just be something simple? If you believe everything that you’re told, I’ve got a car that runs on water I’d like to sell you. LOL

          • Okay Noname6, I see how you came across FF, and will. I’ll try to leave out what I think as far as how a solve should go, so it may be tough to elaborate.
            Not saying you are wrong or right, but, do you think that you are doing a lot of guessing? Even with “will”, isn’t there a lot of wills in the Rockies? I’m guessing there so I don’t know.
            As far as the elements, inside the cave means no rain, No sunshine, it’s a stretch.
            As far as f throwing us off, or some clues being used to mask, let’s say, I don’t see him doing that. It puts an element into the chase where f’s word doesn’t mean much. Leading to people actually thinking that this could be a hoax. Why believe him? I have to believe what f is saying, in aspect of the chase, or what is the reason for all this? If he’s a man of his word, and to men, that is something that you take seriously, then you take him for his word. Until you prove otherwise, he knows that searchers rely on his every word. If it came out that he was deceitful, in the chase, his word means zip, and that’s a bad legacy for a man such as f.
            So, I don’t see anything deceptive of the clues, or seeing anything that has come from him being a ruse.
            But like I said, my thoughts are just that, no valid facts, so take it with a grain of salt. Lol, it’s on the blogs, it’s just entertainment. It’s just we all know how expensive things can be as far as BoTG, and if you have concerns, best to discuss before dipping into the kids college funds.
            So here’s a bone for you if you like, or not. With your thought, If you’ve been wise and found the blaze.
            By just reading it, it could start, I you’ve been(no change) w “is” e and fo ‘und the blaze. Says “W” is “E and FO”. So,
            w=efo. Efo is an abbreviation for the word “effort”.
            It could read , w is e and fo, you need the b lazy. Either way, you have an abbreviation, “efo” and are using it to direct you, to your thought, “effort”, meaning the blaze. Now, if the ice cave had a big “b” at it’s entrance, laying down, like a “brand”, then I take back everything I said, and I would say go for it. Lol, is a stretch though, but look up “efo”, I’m sure it is abbreviation for other words, but the one that sticks out is “effort”. And, it happens to be in the blaze line. I don’t see this, but doesn’t mean that it may not be a way to go.
            I will say this though Noname6, I have found many instances of the initials FF. throughout solving and getting a spot. So much, that when I see variations of FF, I take it for something to look into more. It’s like he is signing off on something. It may be something, may not, but it is curious. Like what I posted prior about the clue lines, it may be a stretch, but it does work out. You do get 66, 66, and 12+12=24. Maybe those are the clue lines, lol, who knows.
            Lastly, let me add, in old notes I have, and from memory, I remember f saying that the blaze will throw a searcher off. That the blaze is “camouflaged”, for lack of a better word. You can’t take this info for being valid, because I cannot find where I got the info. But, I do remember something to that effect, and I did write it in notes, so means nothing. Wish back then I wrote notes with URL’s.

          • Poison, something I’ve been thinking about lately is I wonder if cold waters would halt at the starting location as well. He could mean that there is no water there at all like a desert.

          • Forrest has stated that the treasure chest is not hidden in a cave, nor in a mine or tunnel. This can be validated at the top of this page by clicking on Cheat Sheet and reading the 5th line. But, if you truly believe in this solve, you could still look thoroughly under the wooden steps at the entrance to the cave. imho

            Safety First Always
            Lyzee

  21. I carry 2 cannisters of bear spray, the large size. Keep them easily accessible, know how to properly discharge, and practice your quick draw. Advice based on personal experience. A charging grizz when in the field is terrifying. Practice your tree climbing skills with a 42 pound pack lol!!

    • Better not drop those 42 lbs of treasure before climbing the tree. That grizz is going to grab it, call in the news media and crow about how it solved the poem while no puny human was able to. No worse embarrassment than having an apex predator taking all the credit for your brilliant solve.

      Me? I’d drop the weight as soon as I saw mama bear taking an interest in my porridge.

      And just to keep this on the topic of the page, if the poem uses mushy logic it might be worth it to try porridge as my key word.

    • I am taking Forrest’s word for it–“The treasure is not in a dangerous place”..I still have one canister of bear spray-You never know..

  22. IMO….the word “it” refers to the chase, hunt, search…ect. One definition of “it” is used to refer to a thing previously mentioned.
    If we have just begun our search…then…”it”…refers to our search.
    Begin it …search
    Take it…our search…in the canyon down
    To me the keyword is Brown…because we need to know where to put in at.

    Is this why searchers have gotten the first two clues and gone right past the other seven…?

    • ***IT: used in the normal subject or object position when a **more specific subject** or object is given **later* in the sentence.**

      While IT pertains to both definitions, and seemingly opposite in usage, In the definition I presented; a subject matter seems to relate to “Take IT in” {later in the sentence}.
      Why would this be important?
      Well, In your usage as “the search” idea, we all ready knew of this before we even got to reading the poem [from the book]
      The line could have read; begin where warm waters halt.. because we already knew of the chase, the search.
      However, fenn seemingly wanted to add IT for some reason.
      I guess the question for analyzing would be; If IT refers to the act of searching, why would he be redundant to what we already new?
      Or
      If, IT, refers to something later in the sentence, and the same word is used in a phrasing of words “take IT in”; the word should relate to the same idea.
      To begin a “search” were WWsH and “travel” a canyon down, just doesn’t seem to jive, with your definition usage.
      However, if IT in; “take it in”; to be viewing something [by one meaning] IT in the the same sentence, yet prior, could have a subject matter that actually relates to the first IT and second part of that sentence; being of viewing or observing.
      Or for example;
      ~ Begin observing WWsH and view the canyon down, not far to look, but to far to go to.

      While both meanings could be possible, theoretically; the observational meaning does something the first meaning [your usage] doesn’t… I give a process of how to proceed without question…and may explain why we are told to “Plan and observe” as well as think, analyze, and use of imagination.
      Your meaning of IT being, a subject known prior, doesn’t really specify how to “search” in a poem designed, crafted, feeling like an architect, to be followed “precisely.” It’s more a precondition hope of how we think it should be.

      Regardless of who is correct or not… I can’t simplify IT, no matter how fenn intended IT to be read as. In one version IT is not needed… in the other version IT seems critical.

      • Or for example;
        ~ Begin observing WWsH and view the canyon down, not far to look, but to far to go to.

        Reminds me of the Moby Dickens interview at the 52:53 mark when asked why “too far to walk” is so important.
        His answer a slip of the tongue? “I didn’t say it was too far…err, important”.
        He may not actually be saying that in reference to that line, it’s not too far.
        I’m with you on this part of the poem though, Seeker. Making an observation. (same as ‘put in’ below the hoB), IMO.
        Then line 9 starts moving.
        He never said that we wouldn’t be walking that “too far”. Just because he says too far to walk, doesn’t mean that we are not going to be walking it.
        And then the same argument, what do we have “to walk”? Obviously “too far”, and if we are walking long distances, we are walking “too far”. So, what do we have to walk? Long distances, according to f.
        As far as “it”, IMO, “it” is a bell. His secret if you will. Are we really suppose to think that he had his treasures, (the chest or it’s contents), “bold”?
        And with my treasures bold. Hey, look everyone, I have $2,000,000.00 worth of treasure here for all to see. More like he had something that wouldn’t be treasure to someone else, but to him, maybe priceless.
        “I can keep my secret where”?
        Page 137, Since you won’t be there, I will tell you my “secret” plan.
        “You” meaning everybody. “secret” meaning bell.
        A lot can be gained from scrapbook 129. Especially, the depiction of an airplane flying above the clouds on the front of f’s bronze.

        • Posionivy,

          IMO.. there’s a difference between treasures, chest and trove.
          As I have gone alone… and … with my treasures.
          Two different things?
          example; he has gone by himself at times, AND, at other times he would *be with his treasure{s}… Family? Possibly a hint that references a place they should know of-?- and the readers find in the book?
          The question is; what the difference between treasures vs. chest and trove?
          Hint; when fenn talks about the chest he refers to it as “treasure chest” never plural, and as far as I can tell, never refers to it as just the “chest” as we like to.

          • Yeah, you’re right the word trove, Seeker. It is defined as; a collection of objets or delightful things. I need to see if you can see anything I’m missing about my latest theory. I think the blaze is in the poem itself. I think it’s the double f’s in the word e[ff]ort. The first line reads, “As I have gone alone in there.” Possibly, refering to the fact that FF is only used one time in the poem. So a blaze only marks the beginning of a trail. So that leads me to believe that the word after effort, “will”, would be the keyword. The word will can have many different meanings, which brings me back to the trove stanza. The first two lines of that stanza sounds like he’s describing his will. So that led me to the town of Willwood in Wyoming because of a couple of the clues close to the end. Your effort will be worth the cold. If he means cold as in sick, W[ill]wood has the word ill in it. Brave and in the wood kind of fits too. On the Q&As Forrest used to do, someone asked him if the blaze was a single thing. He answered, “In a word – Yes.” I’m starting to believe that the majority of the clues were meant as a distraction, or maybe you have to use them somehow in Willwood. There is an ice cave near Willwood in the Pryor Mountains that it could possibly be pointing to. The entrance has wooden steps that lead to a wooden platform at the bottom. He could have very well hid it under that platform. Which would give brave and in the wood a double meaning. Let me know if this seems like too far of a stretch.

          • Except for “Just take the chest and go in peace”.
            I see what you are saying though. I can see that. If he means treasures as family. But I can see. I don’t think his family knows of the spot though, at least his living family.
            But I don’t like guessing into what f is trying to say. So “treasures”, we may never know what is meant, that would be a guess. Treasures to him, treasures he took to the spot, something shown and not out of the ordinary?
            BUT, to have “secret” in the same stanza, and knowing what his “secret” plan is, that seems like the “hint” here.
            Because it is tough to answer why we only need one clue, the last, to find the chest. Needing to solve two chest clues would make f a liar. My thoughts, the 8 clues get you to a bell. To find the chest, the path would also consist of the 8 clues in finding the bell, it’s just solving the last clue that finds the chest. Makes f not a liar in this aspect.

      • Hi Seeker,

        You said ” In one version IT is not needed… in the other version IT seems critical.” I understand what you mean based on how you set it up, but have you considered that both versions can be true and not exclude each other?

        Sometimes things are implied by virtue of their absence, of course this presumes their previous attribution in some way, but once something is posed, even if non-dispositively, it remains, it echos within subsequent context. I think it is instructive for us to hear the second stanza (and its use of “it”) both explicitly with and without an attributed “it”, and also without “it” of any attribution, in order to hear how the nature of the first clue is so dependent on “it”. Not only does this aural/thought experiment bear directly on the “path vs. description” conundrum, but it also conditions all the prepositional agencies of the second stanza.

        Begin where warm waters halt and take in the canyon down…..emphasizes how singularly “down” modifies canyon, and canyon solely, and possibly has nothing at all to do with a route traveled or taken.

        We can agree the first use of “it” is without attribution, without foundation, and already we as witnesses are involved, but by the time we as readers have heard its second use we are committed, and on it turns Fenn’s gambit: we’ve chosen even without knowing it.

        You know the difference between involvement and commitment? In the case of a ham omelette the chicken is involved, but the pig is committed.

    • I wanted to chime in on this discussion of the word “it.” When I first came on board to the Chase I had shared some analysis of the word it on one of the Key Word thread pages. At this juncture I will only say the say the following:

      I believe the term “it” as used in stanza two refers to the same concept both times it is used. I say this because the first three lines are one comprehensive sentence: “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.” To me, this comprehensive sentence directs us to begin something. What? The search? possibly. More likely, though, “it” refers to a formal path (even a road perhaps) and I say this on the basis of the third line; “not far, but too far to walk.” This sees to suggest that something begins where warm waters halts, goes down into a canyon below, and is far enough down that some other means of travel besides walking is required.

      I can think of an instance when it could mean the search, and not a hard line path. That would be the case if the entire sentence spanned a much larger distance than simply traveling down into a canyon. What do I mean? Well, suppose WWWH was in NM where FF lives and would have begun his trip. And suppose the canyon is below WWWH, in elevation only, and actually was located in CO. Then, hypothetically, “it” (the search) begins where FF had to leave them (in NM in this example) and either drive or fly or what have you, to the canyon in CO (or anywhere too far to walk). And in this instance a plane would make more sense because the canyon would certainly be below you and if you are in a plane you certainly could not walk there even if you were just hundreds of feet above the ground (not far). And as has been recently discussed, the last line of that stanza could be instruction to land the plane (put in) at an airport below (south in this instance) the home of Brown.

      So “it” would appear to be extremely important indeed since your interpretation may dictate not only the scope of the chase but the extent to which you would have to travel to follow in FF’s footsteps (irony intended). All IMO.

      -Ann

      • Ann – I don’t think that ff would of hid the chest to where not every one could join the chase- not every one has the means or has a plane if that’s the case im out of the game- but I don’t think that’s what he did – he made it to where the rich or poor could join in on the chase — frank

  23. I see it as a road map- I can see a creek – I can see a highway and I can see a dead end and the highway going north and south ,and I can see hob. we seem to forget that the poem is a map with clues that take you to a treasure chest nothing more nothing less imo

    • Frankly I think you are right.
      Simple, straightforward – neither to the left nor the right.
      Kinda like kicking a field goal.
      Begin it? Start your engines.
      Just IMO.
      www

  24. The poem has brought about an enormous inspiration to me,therefore I will have to say it is”inspiration”…peace be with u my friend.

  25. Frank,

    I agree completely. If my words have confused the issue let me clarify. I do not believe a plane is required to get to the chest. That would be problematic for most. But did FF’s journey to hide the chest possibly involve a plane flight? Sure. He doesn’t really say anything about how to get from WWWH to the chest in the poem. There is much speculation. But consider this, if FF started from his house in Santa Fe and hid the chest in a single day, and the only way he got to the spot was by car and foot, well how far up the Rockies do you suppose he went? Now suppose instead, he flew from Sant Fe, further north than he could have drove, rented a car and went from there. That opens up the area much further north. But let’s assume the entire task took more than a day, now it may not matter whether he drove the entire way or flew. So which of these hypotheticals is correct? Well, I don’t have the link with me at the moment, but FF was in Santa Fe and asked about going to the chest now. I am paraphrasing. He responded with, do you have a plane. (And I believe that is very near the exact response he gave.) If there was no plane flight involved, this would at least suggest to me that the chest is a plane flights distance from Santa Fe. That is all I am suggesting here. All IMO.

    -Ann

    • Hello Ann – thanks for your reply- I think that ff was joking about a plane thats what it sounds to me . but you could be right im not saying he couldn’t of done it . but from what I here he drove to the location so I think that , not far, but to far to walk, is not just for the 2nd stanza. I think its meant for all the clues and the treasure chest . not far I take it to mean, from not far from Santa Fe. – frank

      • Frank,

        That was a pretty quick joke! Or response rather, to be taken as a joke. It felt more reflexive tome, as if to say it’s far enough to get to by plane (in some respect). I completely agree that he drove to hide the chest. I also believe he walked back and forth from the car twice in order to hide the treasure. But it is not so clear to me that he did not fly a plane prior to driving a car. I don’t see anything in the poem that rules this out directly. And I would be hard pressed to suppose he drove a great distance, say to YNP or further, to hide the chest before having to return home, if indeed he started from his house in Sant Fe. I like to keep in mind the age of 80 when I consider to what extent he was willing or capable of going to hide the chest. I don’t know many 80 year old’s who would on a long drive twice and walk four times to and from that same car, twice with heavy loads, all while maintaining normal daily function like eating. My grandparents would travel 6 hours one way to come visit my parents for holidays. But they didn’t then hide a chest and drive back! So if a plane flight was not involved, I would imagine the chest to be no further than somewhere in CO. And I’d also like to point out that we are talking about mountain driving where elevation changes take a much bigger toll on drivers. And I also like the idea of beginning the Chase where FF is believed to have begun, at his house! Seems if we are trying to retrace his steps in hiding the chest we ought to start at the beginning. All IMO.

        -Ann

        • Ann- I am 73 years old, things aren’t like they used to be , I used to mow the lawn now I have to pay some one to mow it for me we used to go to the gro. store fill the car with gro. bags and unload them when we got home . now we go and buy a few things and the next day we go and finish buying the rest of the gro. doing things around the house we have to find short cuts because of me being weak so I cant see ff going to the airport get on a plane , landing at another airport rent a car driving to the location hide the treasure chest , get in the car drive to the air port get on a plane , land at the airport get in his car and drive home.I cant see how an 80 year old did it all in one day.thats why I say he drove to the location hid the treasure chest , close to home. that’s just my opinion and that’s why I say he might of been joking about the plane . frank

          • oh I should know , how things are and how they might of been with ff. for I to, have cancer. jmo

          • Frank,

            Sorry to hear about the cancer. It is a nasty thing indeed. I appreciate you sharing your perspective. The plane theory is indeed questionable. It raises the question of when was the chest actually hidden. That has been a subject of much debate which I do not wish to has out here. FF sold his plane in 2003, ano if he did any flying to hide the chest I imagine he did so when he was still able to fly, as in before his license would have expired. I wish we knew for sure because if all he did was drive to hide the treasure that would surely suggest somewhere closer to home. I also wish we knew how many days it took FF to hide th chest. We know he made two trips back and forth to and from his car in an afternoon. But I have seen nothing about how long he may have driven, whether he stayed somewhere over night, or anything else pertaining to how much time elapsed between FF leaving his house (presumably that is where he started) and actually hiding the chest. Surely such information would be most helpful in narrowing down the search area. I do not mean to suggest that a plane flight was involved with hiding the chest. I just don’t have enough information to rule it out. One last question I have here: is there a soundbite of FF claiming to have hidden the treasure at 79-80 or did he just say it was hidden somewhere an 80 year old could go? I guess I am looking for the reference to FF having been 80 when he hid the chest. There is a great difference between saying I was 80 when I hid the chest and the chest is hidden somewhere where an 80 year could go. Just some more feedback. You are right to suggest he may have been joking. It’d be nice to know whether or not he was. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Hello Ann – if the poem says its not far but to far to walk, why would you go in a plane. like I said before and what I heard is that he drove so it must not be to far. Ann when I go, say to the store , im not there 30 min. when they are already calling me ,cause the are worried about me being away from the house with my cancer , so I don’t think he spent the night alone with his health the way it was, 79 or 80 and being sick I don’t think he went to far jmo, I know I couldn’t and wouldn’t hop in a plane fly to santa fe rent a car go to the location get on a plane and fly back home . I hate to say this but the treasure can just stay there. —frank good luck and I hope you find all the answers you are looking for . all this is just my opinion

          • Frank,

            The plane hypothesis is a stretch, but there has been some question over when exactly FF hid the chest. If a plane indeed was involved with his trip it would definitely be too far to walk!!! 🙂 The plane theory was actually introduced to me by way of another searcher suggesting FF hid the plane in 2002-2003 before he sold his plane. Again, I realize the date of hiding is up for debate. I do not wish to get involved with that. But even after he sold his plane, he was involved with places like the museum in Cody, WY which even for an 80 year could be considered a long way to drive. My take on the plane theory is that it allows for the possibility that the treasure is hid somewhere further north. I wrote out a great what if elsewhere in these threads regarding all of this but I don’t recall where. Maybe on Odds and Ends. Dal, gave a thorough reply as to why he thinks YNP is a viable area of interest. While it doesn’t require a plane flight to get to from Santa Fe, it doesn’t rule out the possibility. By no means am I suggesting any searcher needs to take a plane flight, although for those over seas I imagine that would be better than a boat ride! My intention in bringing up anything about the plane theory is to gather thoughts on what FF had to go through when hiding the chest.

            We have a poem that points us to an area on a map. The map covers a rather large region. What sort of area are we talking about here? Is it within a single days drive from and back to FF’s house in Santa Fe? Or is it a couple days trip to a place commonly associated with FF where he may have taken an afternoon to hide the chest and the rest of the trip to fish or visit friends?

            Another reason the plane theory came to light for me was something he said in a Santa Fe Q & A, and no I don’t have the link to that at the moment. He was asked if they could go to the treasure from there (meaning Santa Fe) and FF quickly replied “Do you have a plane?” Was it a joke? Could have been. Could FF have been serious knowing how far (or close) the chest is to Santa Fe? Maybe. I am too new to all of this to make any educated guess so I am asking for further info.

            I hope this clarifies any confusion over my thoughts and all is IMO of course.

            -Ann

  26. Maybe the keyword is key and the keywords in the poem is (for all). I did some research on the Monkey Theorem and came across a poem that goes like
    this. “For all the monkeys in the zoo, that type away in 2 by 2’s, there’s one who’s called by name afar, that’s Oma Gawd, the true high guard”
    All you need is the poem, right?

  27. Where = Ware A broken piece of bright white pottery placed on a fallen lodge pole pine might be considered a blaze as well as the where.

  28. thank you pdenver that was interesting -there is one keyword that will help you more then others, but you need all of them – what I got out of that is that one key word will not help you solve the poem , im I right? I think that some stanzas do have a key word , but not to solve the whole poem with one word , thanks pdenver correct me if im wrong

    • Hello frank. Should I correct anyone, it would mean I understood what the gentleman meant. (Giggle.) My understanding is that there is a word in the poem that helps more than the others, but we need all of them to locate the treasure chest. It would seem this word helps either locate a place on the map or something visual in the surroundings, although I may be wrong with my thoughts.

      • Frank and pdenver,

        That is my take on the key word as well. It is a word more helpful than the others but not a sole word that will provide all the answers. If only we knew which word and why! At least we know it’s in the poem! IMO.

        -Ann

      • pdenver – you may be right with your thoughts I think you helped a lot of us , because, and im not one of them, that ever sense , the key word came out a lot of people were looking for that one key word , that would solve the poem – and I couldn’t see how that was possible . now I know I was right thanks to you — frank

        • Hello OS2. It’s possible. In one of my solves, the map shows what looks like an ear. Nature sounds of water, wind, animals, etc. would seem a little more difficult to pinpoint. Would you be so kind to give an example of how you would apply “listen,” please?

      • In my opinion, the word that is key is one that if you remove it from the poem, you cannot proceed with your solve. Many have discussed the word “it” but you can remove “it” and still solve the poem.

        I believe the word that is key is “Brown”. It is the only one FF points to by capitalizing while not at the beginning of a line. It seems to be the most difficult to correctly decipher since very few have solved more than the first two clues correctly. If we remove the word “Brown” we become instantly stuck… “Put in below the home of… ???”

        Also consider that if we start at WWWH, we must proceed in a certain direction (physically or figuratively). The “canyon down” clue gets us pointed in the right direction. If we then find “home of Brown” we are on the right path and our solve is viable. However, if we cannot locate the “home of Brown” then it follows that perhaps we are going the wrong way, or our starting point is incorrect.

        That is how I “qualify” the word that is key.

        – Lori

        • Lori ~ *Many have discussed the word “it” but you can remove “it” and still solve the poem.*

          LOL you said the comment… so can you explain why IT can be removed and doesn’t affect the solution?
          It doesn’t matter which word you like over others. I would like to know why IT is basically a toss away word.
          I have made a suggestion IT depicts a method. In that method if IT is removed the poem will basically fall apart. I have also said; should IT be,as you said, removed, the line in the poem would read as; begin where warm waters halt. This version is singling out a point to point method only. Begin here go here and there, idea.
          So if we should remove/ignore a deliberately used word fenn chose to have/use… where does that leave us with all the other words? Can we simple get rid of “Quickly” or change the idea of wood to woods?
          How about skipping stanza 5 altogether? All it seems to say is what we knew of from the book… right? got cancer, beat cancer, turning 80 and left a trove for all to find.

          IMO.. your comment is a dangerous way of thinking. *… it risky to discount word…*

          • Seeker, I actually thought it may have been the keyword too for awhile. It being defined a word previously mentioned or easily identified. If the clues start at WWWH, then the only word that comes before it is Begin. So I thought there must be something about or in that word to help you. So I came up with “gin” There’s a Gin Creek in Wyoming, and one in Idaho. I thought the one in Idaho seemed more interesting because if you follow it down, it leads to Plank Creek (too far to walk) There is also Rummy Creek and Poker Creek where Gin Creek starts. I was thinking about the Canasta comment Forrest made about the first clue. But everyone on here said Forrest said it wasnt in Idaho, so I gave up on it.

          • NoName6,

            IT:
            ~used in the normal subject or object position when a *more specific subject* or object is *given later in the sentence.*
            ~used to emphasize a *following part of a sentence.*
            “take it in” {take something in needs a subject] as a view, by one of the phrases meanings; to study by seeing, gaze upon…. observe…

            Begin IT where warm waters halt and TAKE IT IN the canyon down… Should you remove the first IT, you just removed a definition of “take it in”…

            That’s a big chance to take, and could have thousands wondering about the RM’s searching on how to: drive, hike, float, fly, bike, horseback, rappelling, hop skip and jump into a canyon… some unknown distance.

            IF all you are considering is *one* definition, meaning, usage of any word, words or phrasing… that can leave a lot of holes over the landscape.

          • He said don’t mess with poem. It is important in my opinion. It actually is a keyword. It’s about it. It’s a big word because of it.

          • No, I agree with you Seeker. Keep thinking about it and you might find something interesting. Another thing I forgot to mention in my last reply is there is a lake in Idaho called Egin. Doing a little research on this word, I found out it is a Native American word for cold. So that could qualify as a WWWH. The clues could very well start in eastern Idaho and take you into Montana or Wyoming. So as you can tell, I’ve thought about “it” for quite some time. I think it’s kind of strange that it’s written as “Begin it” when he could have easily just used only “begin”. So I thought there must be a reason for putting the word it after begin.

          • Seeker,

            As you well know, I spent some time on the Key Word thread when I first came upon the Chase not long ago. Lori is not discounting the word “it.” altogether. She was just providing an example of why it doesn’t fit her idea of what constitutes the key word. I am in agreement with her on this point.

            I previously analyzed the term “it” elsewhere on these threads and it boiled down to referring to either a literal path (literally a road, trail, what have you) or the Chase (figuratively the process of searching) removing it does not take either of these away nor does it render the word superfluous. It does demonstrate how it’s not likely to be as crucial as say Brown.

            Obviously we still need to know what “it” refers to, but it is likely that Brown will give us greater clarity on the proper WWWH and the two together would probably define for us what “it” refers to in that stanza.

            All IMO of course, and your jumping on every single thought or idea shared is a dangerous way of brainstorming with others IMO. It’s counterproductive to try to try and discredit EVERY thought or idea. Giving feedback is great, it wouldn’t hurt for you to give some positive feedback once in awhile. All IMO of course.

            -Ann

          • Removing the word “it” does not affect my general solve.
            Whether you say “Begin it where warm waters halt” or “Begin where warm waters halt” makes no difference to the location I believe is WWWH. “It” didn’t change anything because of what I believe “it” is. That does not mean, as you imply, that we can go throwing out words and stanzas willy-nilly. Yes, every word is there for a reason. But…

            There are words in the poem that will not help you find the treasure.

            I cannot think of a single situation that I would consider a viable solution where “it” was the word that helps more than any other. Sorry, not buying “it”.

        • Lori, you may be on to something there. I never really thought about the fact that it was the only word that’s capitalized outside the first letter of each line. I always thought that stanza sounded like it was describing the birthing process except the HOB line. Warm waters of the womb. Take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. None of us can walk at birth. And if you take the W out of Brown, you can spell the word born. I’ll have to contemplate on this some more. Good idea!

        • Lori – I think that home of brown is the start of all the clues going north – to start at wwwh where the you turn west (up)to hob. that would put wwwh east of , or as the poem says below hob. that’s my opinion

  29. Maybe “creek” is a key word. More than a few people (and you know
    who you are!) seem to be fixated on “river” as in Gallatin River and
    Madison River and Firehole River and Gibbon River and Yellowstone
    River and Gardner River etc. Maybe the poem IS straightforward
    with no subterfuge and maybe “creek” actually refers to a creek!??

    Maybe in 15 years time Forrest could have worked the word “river”
    into his poem if he wanted to, eg. drove my flivver to the river and it
    was cold and made me shiver…OK being silly here a bit, but trying
    to make a point.

    Maybe “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” refers simple-y to a creek
    that is so small and or rock-strewn that it is not navigable, rather than
    a metaphor for a hard task or something more abstract.

    In my opinion, Dal’s first photo titled “No Paddle Up Your Creek” in his
    story titled “The Shaft” shows a perfect example of a non-paddleable
    creek filled with heavy loads (material moved along by a glacier or stream.)

    • D. Crockett,

      I agree. seems a creek would be involved. I haven’t read much discussion about the clues beyond HOB, though I am sure there is a plethora. I’ve always thought, and in terms of he Chase that hasn’t been very long at all, that the creek is where the walking portion of the Chase begins. In other words you can start at WWWH, drive down into a canyon (perhaps one that also has a river in it) and I feel the HOB would mark where you would find the paddleless creek. More specifically, I think the creek rises in elevation from where you would be if at the HOB (or even up to the left as some have suggested for nigh), and following it up as it goes you’ll pass by heavy loads and water high. Then finding the blaze you can stop and look down to retrieve the chest. All is in my opinion of course, but these see like practical interpretations of the poem. No paddle may refer either to a dry creek or one as you have suggested, too small to be paddled.

      As with most of the clues, how does one narrow down which creek fitting our description? My guess, as with any word thought to be key, is that somehow that word better enables us to marry the poem to a map. And IMO a specific map. All IMO.

      -Ann

      • An;
        I am not D Crockett, but. IF you have the correct WWWsH – For me, it was easy to find the appropriate canyon, and then a logical hoB. IF you find the appropriate hoB, you will NOT have several creeks to chose from – but that is just my opinion.

        Keep asking questions – The only bad question is the one not asked. IMO – JDA

        • JDA,

          Thanks for sharing. A lot of IFs to be sure!!! But I agree, if you have the right WWWH I imagine a canyon down and HOB would easily follow. And I also agree that the right HOB will be indicative of the creek. I am curious as to your thoughts on the map? Any particular map or will any old map do? I am leaning toward a particular map, specifically the one FF included with the poem. If not that one I don’t know if any others are mentioned or used in the book but I would be inclined to question why not the map he did include right next to the poem as opposed to GE or some other map he may have mentioned. Feels like the two go hand in hand. And I also believe I have said elsewhere, that if that IS the case, then surely the map provided would very much narrow the possible search areas down quite a bot, especially in light f the elevation information. I have not done an overlay of the two myself but I would be interested to see such an overlay if someone has. I don’t mean to seem lazy or in want of anyone’s solve information. I just don’t have the time or resources right now to answer my own questions. But, as some have pointed out there may be reluctance in sharing. If a more private setting would be more suitable to exchanging ideas I would certainly welcome that to everyone as well. I suppose if I had more time and effort invested into this, as some do, and I thought I had a fairly solid solve, I would likely wish for some form of confirmation in my thought process as well, other than BOTG, in case I was overlooking something. But to each their own. If you, or anyone else wishes to discuss matters less publicly just get me an appropriate email. Otherwise, I look forward to your thoughts here! BTW, are you of the same opinion about the creek as I describe above? Again, I haven’t read or seen much discussion on the creek so I am asking here. All IMO. Oh yeah! And I agree about the questions remark!

          -Ann

          • Ann-
            Please do not suggest that anyone post their email on this blog. Trolls, bots and spammers abound.
            The way we get someone’s email is to send me an email request naming the person you would like to be put in contact with. I will send that person your email and if they want to contact you they will reply. If not, you’ll never hear from them.

          • Hi Ann, I actually created a website with a private forum just for such a purpose. There are only a few members and we haven’t been using it lately. If you have ideas and are interested in re-purposing this get my email from Dal and email me.

            Personally, I’d love to be able to meet in person with others that want this solved in order to share ideas. It is tough on a public forum because we don’t want people that are not involved in a back and forth conversation to take our ideas and run with them. I think the only way this gets found is by sharing, and coming up with new thoughts based on others thoughts. It is the way we progress as a society, and it can work in this situation too. I wouldn’t have come up with some of my thoughts and ideas without reading others. The more that we are able to comfortably share the closer we will get. Even if the idea is wrong, if we approach it with an open mind it may trigger something else that may eventually lead to correct way of thinking in someones mind.

  30. Hello, I am a new searcher (just posted my introduction the other day), and have been an armchair researcher (i am disabled, but with partners who will hopefully go BOTG this summer) for only around 7 months, so I don’t claim to be an expert though I do have a solve now that seems to work really well. I hope it’s ok to express a few opinions, though. IMO “a word that is key” is one of the defintions of the word key: “of paramount or crucial importance”. I think that word is “high”, but if you don’t start with the correct WWWH it won’t get you anywhere, For me and my solve at least, it did. Can’t say much more though, without giving things away. IMO, It is definitely not about waterfalls, or scaling or standing on top of dangerous cliffs. Also IMO, you do not have to risk your life whitewater rafting in dangerous high water conditions. So keep safe everyone!

      • Welcome aboard Librarylady!
        Sounds like you got the bug just like the rest of us. I like the way you are thinking – gonna have to do some looking up after reading your post.
        I like impulsiveness and spontaneity so will be watching and waiting for your next posts.
        www

        • Oh and you might notice that I have a tendency to hop on things at a moments notice. Not sure that is such a good thing but that is all I know. My mama taught me well.

      • I love libraries! So naturally, you are a-okay with me sister. I agree with what you interpret. If my search doesn’t pan out this summer I’ll try to lend you a hand! Welcome to the chase and good luck! Three cheers for librarians, the guardians of memory and imagination.

  31. librarylady,

    No need to apologize for grammar here. I’m sure most of us have wanted to edit a post after the fact more than once. I know I have!!! Seeing as how you are keen to punctuation though, I am interested to know what your thoughts are on line 8 of the poem. What’s your initial take on what that line may mean? All IMO.

    -Ann

  32. Thank you for your warm and welcoming words, everyone! WWWAMERICANA, you are a person after my own heart as far as impulsiveness and jumping right in goes! My mama still scolds me for interrupting conversations even though i am almost 60, lol! Copper thanks so much for your compliment about librarians, I’ll pass that on to co-workers!

    Ann, I agree, I need an edit button so I can edit after the fact too! No criticism of Dal intended, this website is amazing and I can tell he does a fantastic job! I just type faster than I think, lol! Now as to punctuation and line 8–the infamous HOB line. Yikes! Now I realize what is so hard about these conversations even though I can tell they are going to be fun. How do I answer your question without giving up too much? Ok here goes. IMO, I don’t feel punctuation is necessarily something you have to focus on to figure out most of the clues in the poem. Forrest was asked a question:
    Q: Does punctuation have significance in solving the poem? If so, what?
    No. f
    I have seen this quote in numerous places, here’s one link: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/chase/quotes-from-mr-fenn-not-exhaustive-t27-s120.html

    I have found that nearly all of his quotes do not cause me problems with my solve. This one does, and the problem concerns line 8. I believe one of the things Forrest did during the 15 years he spent tweaking the poem was trying many different ways of saying things, so that he didn’t give too much away too easily. I’ve got a feeling, again just IMO, that the punctuation in this line was something he had to think over, and the choice he made in the end has caused a lot of confusion and looking in the wrong places. Actually I don’t think he had a choice because punctuating it differently would have been too obvious. However, I also don’t think he was lying because you can figure out the clue anyway as long as you look at the whole line. Other rules of grammar are good to know.
    Whew! I don’t know how Forrest managed to write either the poem or his books full of hints, without giving away too much. I’m exhausted just after this post! But I hope it helps, Ann! I’d love to know if you agree with me.

    • librarylady,

      Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I hope you never feel pressured to reveal more than you wish. As I have disclosed before, I have not been at the Chase for long (some weeks now really) and I certainly don’t have as much invested in it as many. While BOTG would be fun and adventurous, I have no intentions of doing any actual searching. I am a problem solver, and while I imagine BOTG will be necessary to complete the solve, I am more interested in figuring out where to look than actually looking. Like an ideas person. SO I tend to be fairly open about thoughts and ideas, unless it pertains to something another searcher and I have agreed not to disclose openly. Just so you have an idea of my more casual approach to all of this.

      I have been introduced to the FF quote about punctuation before. My introduction to the Chase began on this very thread. While I have never much enjoyed reading or writing, growing up, because it was usually always for school and never for leisure, I have become more acquainted with both than I imagine anyone from my childhood would have guessed. That being the case, it is hard for me, as a poet and technical person in general, not to take note of the punctuation in the poem. As I am sure you can attest, punctuation can maje all the difference in a written work.

      My first impression when I came upon the Chase and this thread was that Brown is the word that most clearly stands out from all the rest and simply because of it’s capitalization while not starting a line of the poem. A little further into the Chase and some discussions on some of the other words contained in the poem, it came to my attention that line 8 is unique, not just because of Brown, which is arguable all on its own, but line 8 happens to be the only line that is also a stand alone sentence. To me, that suggests a complete thought, whereas reading other lines in the poem, it appears that their meaning may be ascertained in conjunction with one another according to how many complete a single sentence.

      While I raised this stand alone sentence point previously, I did not really explain much other than pointing t out. So I will elaborate a bit here.

      There has been much discussion about FF’s nine clues, though admittedly I have not seen a comprehensive list as to what are believed to be those nine clues. I suppose that is still a matter for debate. There are exactly nine sentences in the poem, though I don’t know I can equate each to being a clue. But, as noted above, sentences tend to give complete thoughts, or at least express complete thoughts. So whether each sentence is one of the nine clues or not, makes no difference to me at the moment, I am curious about line 8 being a stand alone sentence.

      I have seen much discussion about what the words in line 8 may mean, none very satisfactory. In its most simplistic rendering, the line at first glance suggests to me that something is put in below the home of Brown. It has been suggested that the words put in refer to an action to be taken as opposed to one already having been took. Again at first glance it suggested “placed below.” In this context the quandary became was something placed below the home of Brown or was the home of Brown placed down below?

      But then there are those who suggest that FF uses a fish(y)ing definition of put in to refer to a boat launch. I add the y because, while FF is known to have been a fisherman and even a guide, nothing in the poem itself suggest to me outright that this is the intended use of the words. And I suppose that goes to the question of nouns FF has mentioned we should focus on. Is put in to be taken as a noun in this instance? This being the case, the quandary then became does put in refer to a boat launch or landing a plane? As FF was also known to be a pilot. Again, nothing in the poem itself directly suggests this intended use of the words.

      And that is as far as I’ve come on the discussion. All seem plausible, but as we both know, punctuation seems like it may be of some importance in settling on one meaning over the others. It’s hard for me not to ignore the punctuation of line 8 for that very reason! So what does the punctuation tell me?

      Well, looking at line 8 we see that the only punctuation used is a capital P at the start of the sentence, a capital B for Brown (presumably to emphasize its intended use as a noun instead of an adjective, a proper noun even) and a period. That’s it! And that’s the rub for me. It’s the lack of punctuation that leads me to lean toward the first set of possibilities sorted out above. Namely, that the words put in are not used here as a noun. For me, line 8 is a case of the unspoken subject. As in:
      Q: “What did you do this afternoon?”
      A: “Went to hide the chest.”

      If there had been a comma or any other punctuation whatsoever, I may be inclined to read line 8 differently. But as of yet I have no solid reason to do so. And if you were to ask me what I think is put in below the home of Brown, I would say the subject either comes from lines 5-7, or is the home of Brown itself. I would lean toward the latter if for no other reason than we are talking about a physical journey which requires some direction. I am of the opinion that whatever we begin in line 5 and take in line 6 starts at WWWH and takes us down a canyon where the home of Brown will be found below (in elevation from or southerly to WWWH).

      I’m not sure I can expound on a single line more than that! I am interested now to hear your thoughts on the matter. If you are reading the line differently I would be more interested in why you render it the way you do in case you do not feel like sharing the specific rendering. All IMO.

      -Ann

      • Ann;

        As I have read the poem, I have always understood line 8 as having an (understood) “You” – “You” must put in below the hoB.

        I have put an understood “You” in front of, or within, almost every line.

        “You” must begin it (Your quest or search) at a p[lace where warm waters halt.
        “You” must take your search in the canyon down…
        “You” must go not far, but too far to walk.
        And then “You” must put in below the hoB.

        From there (You will find that) it’s no place for the meek.
        and (“You” will find) that the end is ever drawing nigh.
        “You” will then find that – There’ll be no paddle up your creek
        and “You” will only find (just) – Heavy loads and water high.

        Reading the poem this way, with an understood “you” has always made the most sense to me. – You may not agree. – JMO – JDA

        • JDA,

          I like that rendering. Early on I had dome some toying with the prepositional phrases of the poem to see if the lines could not be arranged with the exact same words but in slightly different prepositional phrase order, to see if the poem made a bit more sense that way. I was scolded, so to say, for “messing” with FF’s poem. Though my method really was just an experiment to see what sorts of meanings FF intended for the phrases to have. The poem is written in such a way as to almost suggest understood subjects. (Subjects in the context of grammar as in subject/object). The poem is intended t be instructional as it is meant to lead us to a chest. So your thoughts seem well reasoned. And I think your choice of “you” as the understood subject gives similar meanings to the lines as I take them. A great ay to explain the context. Thanks for sharing. I would be interested on your thoughts about the map and marrying the poem to the map, and by this I mean of course the poem as you have rendered it. I imagine each rendering has a different way of marrying the poem to the map. Seems like only the right combination will lead someone to the chest. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • Good idea, Ann. I really think it must be something like that with the prepositions because Forrest has always said you can solve it with just the poem. I noticed something odd about the first few conjunctions. The first set of words with a conjunction is There and with. The next word starts the same letter as the previous set of words. It does this a few times in a row. There and with. Where and hint. (Skip new and old maybe cause there’ already a conjunction there.) Halt and take.

          • Ann O
            Ditto what JDA said about an implied “you”.
            Line 8 to me means simply you put in (park) your
            sedan below the hoB. While some flyspeckers
            and pickers of nits may claim that “put in” is strictly
            a nautical term, I think it has a broader meaning
            including put in for the night (stop, rest, etc) while
            backpacking, for instance. Some of us believe
            that FF DROVE a sedan from wwwh because
            it was too far to walk, so he had to stop/park/put in
            somewhere it seems to me. Perhaps the sedan
            was a 1970s Oldsmobile Delta 88 “landyacht”
            and then the nautical connection could be made!
            OK, I tried to make a funny there…Ha. All IMO.

          • NoName,

            I applaud your creativity. You certainly give us all a different way of looking at the poem. I try not to play with the words too much. Thought the prepositions were the safest route in any movement of the words, if any movement can be permitted. Generally, prepositions don’t lose very much meaning simply by relocating them within a sentence. This of depends on what the propositional phrase is modifying within the sentence. Rearrangement can alter which word receives the modification. But as has been demonstrated, FF isn’t so obvious in indicating which words are nouns or which subjects may be understood (in the sense provided by JDA above). This lack of clarity by FF on the subject of his sentences or the identification of the nouns he tells us are of importance, is what makes identifying the receiver of the prepositional phrases difficult. It’s not so much a play on of words that renders the poem a hard read, but rather the lack of clarity. Could FF have been more precise or concise in writing the poem? Sure. But perhaps that would have made the Chase too easy. Instead we are left to guess where to go and what to do and all the while wondering why we should do what we think we should do to begin with! So, in light of what I have said here and in light of the title of this thread, perhaps the key (not necessarily a word) is certainty. Where in the poem can we find certainty? Or what in the poem can we be certain about? Wisdom seems like it would help us to achieve some degree of certainty. But this word in the poem FF has indicated is more helpful than the rest, while still needing all the rest, seems to me like it would help us find that certainty. I don’t particularly have answers to the questions I have raised here. This post was more on the fly than most but the thoughts should still appear coherent. If only I find a similar coherence in the poem! Sorry this isn’t broken into paragraphs. I typed it as it came t me. Consider it thinking out loud. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • D. Crockett,

            I am on board with the drive and walk. The nautical usage doesn’t seem universal enough to me for a little girl in India to understand. And I realize that comment may be debated depending on everyone’s outline of the nine clues and how many of those they think the little girl from India is capable of solving. That debate aside, I think the rendering you mention here is likely a common rendering and a plausible one at that.

            So let’s assume for a moment that a certain population of the searchers has the correct rendering of what the clues mean in terms of what must be done in the midst of the Chase, whatever that rendering may be. I will not choose a rendering here because that is not my focus in this particular instance. And to clarify by what I mean about what must be done in the midst of the search, I simply mean how to get from WWWH to the chest. Okay, so assuming someone or someone(s) have that part of the puzzle correct, how do you suppose that person or person(s) go about deciding where to implement the proper procedure?

            I realize the obvious answer is begin at WWWH. I am not asking for anyone’s thoughts on WWWH. I’m merely suggesting that figuring out what to do between WWWH and the chest may be achieved completely independent of pinpointing WWWH. We’ve all conjectured and hypothesized about how to get from WWWH to the chest by analyzing the clues quite literally between the two in the poem. So where in the poem do we find directions to WWWH?

            I feel the first stanza would seem to come into play here. But so many have looked to the first clue, WWWH and said just go there and the rest will follow. Well yeah, if we all knew where WWWH i’m sure the rest would follow! And I say that because most have ideas on how to get from WWWH to the chest.

            Again, I am not asking for any specific WWWH. I can’t imagine those four words alone point to a specific geographic starting point on a map! even though that seems to be the common method of choosing a WWWH! I also can’t imagine FF intended to render 20 % of the poem (the entire first stanza) superfluous to the Chase! If the four words WWWH do indeed point to a specific location on a map all by themselves, then surely we can eliminate the first stanza altogether and begin the poem with line 5!

            And for those who may be quick to point out that at least some early searchers were known to have gotten the first couple of clues right (or how many ever they are credited with getting correct) whether by chance or on purpose (no one really knows) I would retort with who are they and did they know that? I’m guessing they didn’t (and likely still don’t) considering if I knew exactly where to start every time I better make some progress over time with the rest of the clues! Otherwise, the hard part isn’t finding WWWH, but rather getting from WWWH to the chest! In which case feel free to share your WWWH because it may take the rest of us to help you figure out how to get to the chest from there!

            I don’t recall when FF made the comments about searchers having been within hundreds of feet, but if I had done ANY search prior to those remarks, you better believe I’d be retracing all of my steps and widening each one by 500 feet on both sides!!! I say 500 because that also covers the 200 in case I wasn’t within 200 feet.

            Okay, I have started to drift off topic here. Good ideas Crockett. Still need to marry the poem to that map! TGIFriday everyone! And all is IMO.

            -Ann

          • Thanks, Ann. I think paragraphs are over rated. LOL And I figure that the more ideas I put out there maybe it will someone connect the right dots. I guess I learned that from my many years of factory work. Quantity over quality sort of thing. Do you think there may be anything to the four corner letters (starting bottom left and moving counterclockwise) spell the word idea or if you start upper left counter clockwise, it spells the word aide. I think Forrest mentioned he was a general’s aide at one time during his time in the Air Force.

      • Well thought out post here Ann. I like that you paid attention to line 8 being a stand alone sentence. I do believe that the subject you are referring to is in lines 5 and 6, and I also believe this subject is the keyword: “it”. This “it” is something a searcher must determine IMO, and once determined follow it down the canyon to where it puts in below the home of Brown. This is my current theory anyway, and I like where it is sending me.

        I have to say though your question “or was the home of Brown placed down below?” got me thinking. It reminds me of thoughts I have had of the chest being Brown, and that the searcher needs to put in below and work its way to it. Just another interesting way to think about it.

      • Ann, sorry I was offline last night so just got back into this discussion. Wow! The discussion went in more directions than I can keep up with, so I’m just going to stick with replying to your comments above on line 8, after having though about it while offline. First of all I like your noticing that it is the only stand-alone sentence, and I want to look closer to see the relationship of the longer sentences to arrangement of clues. As far as line 8 goes–IMO don’t completely ignore the “fishy” definition–the punctuation issue I was referring to is a certain mark of punctuation that I feel Forrest had to leave out in order not to give away too much. That mark, inserted in the right place, would turn a verb into a noun. In my opinion there are no verbs, present or past tense, in line 8. There two nouns, one of which does indeed have to do with boats or rafts. In my opinion the clues, as FF has said, can be “married to” places on a map and this noun is a particular place, as is the capitalized “home of Brown”. I believe they are near each other and the preposition indicates their approximate relationship indicates their spatial relationship to one another. Hope this helps Ann!

        • Ugh, forgot to edit again. Please mentally delete “their approximate relationship” as I meant to do. “Their spatial relationship is the correction.

        • librarylady,

          No need to apologize. I don’t speak for everyone here, but I imagine most of us have lives outside of these threads as well. It can definitely become difficult to follow all the remarks as there are times of greater activity. Most try to follow the rules for the most part. A good rule of thumb I try to follow is stick to the thread if submitting a new post, otherwise replies to other posts are generally accepted. Thus, you will notice many replies are directed toward individuals. Makes it less ambiguous.

          And on that note I will reply t your post here! If you are referring to the Joe Brown Put In that is not a secret to those who have been at it for very long, let alone years. It’s one of the first Browns I was introduced to just a few weeks ago by the “nautical” searchers. Nautical is quoted to refer to those who believe put in to have a nautical meaning. And yes a comma would certainly help change that from a verb to a noun. I am not good with citing quotes but I do remember discussion I have been a part of fairly well. FF has been known to say that the nouns are important or something to that effect. I know there is a quote somewhere about it. Anyways, as you can tell, part of the problem with that sort of advice or suggestion is obviously determining which words in the poem are indeed nouns and which are not. And depending of the results you may come up with, the poem can have very different meanings. Which way is right? I think the consensus is that we won’t really know until the chest is found. I don’t really like this degree of uncertainty in the Chase, but I have yet to come across anything that is certain (some direct facts from FF aside).

          And of course the second difficulty comes after deciding what types of words we are dealing with. Noun or verb, the question then becomes what do we do with them? If, for instance, line 8 is indeed void of verbs altogether, as you suggest then what does that line tell us about what to do in terms of the Chase? Or is it just observational commentary on FF’s part?

          There is also much toiling over whether the verbs or words that are not nouns are directional or instructional. There are any number of possible outcomes depending on which way you identify each variable. Obviously only one is correct (Or is it? Hypothetically, it is possible to interpret the poem in more than one way and still arrive at the chest in the same way two people can use the same map and take different routes from A to B. Again, that is only hypothetical.).

          My focus as of lately has been trying to figure out why the poem should be married to the location it marries to on the map. Obviously there have been many different ideas on where the chest is hidden over the years, and each one of those solves has used the words to marry the poem to a map. And obviously we have not had a perfect union yet.

          So I am curious to know what connection the poem and map may have other than mere general nouns like water and canyon which don’t point to anywhere specific in terms of a map. They do rule out some places, but there has been criticism over deductive reasoning as well. Although knowing where something is not, narrows (or tightens) the focus of where that something may be. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • Ann, ok I did not realize you had already been exposed to the idea of a “put-in” as a noun instead of a verb. It was actually the hyphen I meant because that is how I have seen it written when used on some river rafting/boating guideson the internet. As far as line 8 having no verbs, I think I am like JDA and tend to assume the “implied you” in front of a number of lines in the poem. When mentioning Line 8 JDA assumes put in as a verb so in that case “you must put in” makes sense, but if one assumes put-in as a noun as I have then it just works to use JDA’s phrase “you must find (the) put-in….” instead. I don’t consider adding the “you” phrases as messing with the poem if it helps arrange my thoughts. In my reading of the poem I think I have always interpreted it that way without even thinking about it. Thanks to JDA for helping me realize it! I’ do know that many searchers have considered good old Joe Brown , indeed I have heard the area described as over-searched but to me it would be just a “point B ( pun intended, but also true IMO) on the path to the treasure—point A being WWWH. After that the clues get more ambiguous again which caused me, like many, to make wrong guesses and head off down rabbit holes ( or up the wrong creeks actually) and having to try again. I think this is what happens to most of us, but I have realized that when I did that I inevitably found myself confronted with either way too many places that fit a clue and no way to figure out whichwas The right place to look next, or else the place that fit was too large an area and i couldn’t find anything in the next clue to narrow it down. So I had to backtrack and figure out where I made a wrong guess and try again. IMO (and again, my solve is as yet untested bc my partners haven’t yet gone BOTG) when you actually figure out what FF really means, the answers form such a clear path that you know you figured it out correctly. Well, until you get to that “blaze”. That‘s trickier! And of course I could just be all wrong….but I’m having fun and I hope you are too!

          • librarylady,

            Hello again! Always good to hear from you! I tend to be a bit of a quick study. I should have guessed the hyphen.

            No worries about the assumed “you.” I am not so critical about playing with the poem. I have discussed a propositional phrase method to try and see if the meaning of each line might not be made more clear by simple rearrangement within a line but so as not to lose any meaning. I like your approach and I am glad you are having fun. This is a pretty interesting endeavor and I am enjoying it thus far. Looking forward to more! All IMO.

            -Ann

        • @librarylady – To be a complete sentence, it must have a verb, so IMHO you may wish to reconsider your examination of that sentence.

          • Bowmarc,

            Not to be nit picky but there are sentences that can have an assumed or implied verb as opposed to an express verb. That said, you are not incorrect in this instance. If “put in” is considered a noun, then line 8 no longer becomes an independent clause. It would just be a dependent clause with a noun and adjective. Of course there is one other possibility…….

            If there were a comma after “put in” then the verb would be assumed/implied and it would have to be read much like Tarzan speaks. Does this sort of interpretation jive well with proper English? No. (<—-Arguably a complete sentence as it implies/assumes both subject and verb as in "No it does not." 🙂 ) But is it possible to render it this way? Yes. (<—-Another such example!)

            To be sure I will give you a more recognizable example from a movie I like to use here for analogies:

            In The Goonies, toward the end when the kids are found on the beach and the sheriff is asking for an explanation and Chunk is rambling about the pirate adventure, suddenly One Eyed Willie's ship appears on the horizon. And what does the sheriff say? "Holy Mary, mother of God!" That my friends is an exclamatory sentence containing no explicit verb, and yet we all understand the context of what the sheriff was expressing.

            And in order to avoid further argument, I will just say that it boils down to semantics. And no, that is not a cop out Just the nature of words. (<—–Had to include one last example of a sentence with an assumed/implied verb! As in:
            Q: "What is it?"
            A: "Just a pile of rocks."

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Hi Ann: Or this oxymoronish example: “A sentence without a verb is not a sentence. Period.”

            I suppose you could say that’s an example of a sentence that consists of nothing but punctuation. 😉

          • @Ann – I prefer to think of it as discussion, not nit-picking. LOL.

            I’ll stand by my argument as presented. She chose to call line 8 a complete sentence without any verbs, and my assertion is that a complete sentence must have a verb. Any sentence that does not contain both a subject and a verb is an incomplete sentence.

            As to your movie quote, written language and spoken language are two separate disciplines, and sentence fragments such as your movie quote occur quite often and are understood when spoken, but do not make a written complete sentence when reduced to writing as such is defined in that discipline.

            I concede that we are talking about an architected poem crafted by a master wordsmith who likes to make his own rules, and he does tell us to listen good within said poem, so perhaps reading his poem aloud does make line 8 a complete sentence in what I term “Fennese”, but strictly speaking about the written word, a complete sentence must have a verb.

            IMHO

            Oh, and the key word/word that is key is treasures…

          • Bowmarc,

            Written or spoken makes no difference. Sentences are sentences. Written sentences can be spoken and spoken sentences can be written. I will grant you that context is lost among the written but not identity. If a sentence is such spoken, it can also be so written. Context certainly helps know the assumes but as pointed out, verbs can be assumed just as nouns thus making sentences (spoken or written) complete without the explicit use of either. This is particularly true in the exclamatory instance and when answering questions.

            That is why one may argue that the words “yes” and “no” can themselves be sentences. Example:
            Q: Do you hunt for treasure?
            A; Yes.

            In such instances both the subject “I” and the verb “do” are implied/assumed. Therefore, “Yes.” is arguably a stand alone sentence. As stated in my last post. It’s a matter of semantics. Believe what you will. I am not here to convince you otherwise. And as the matter is as yet unsettled, it will remain up for debate.

            I will not go into whether a sentence has to have its parts explicitly contained in it or not. My background in math will suggest that implicit inclusion is satisfactory. Therefore assumed subjects and verbs qualify.

            Q.E.D.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • @Ann – It is all boiling down to individual tolerance I suppose. In written language there are rules and part of those rules are definitions. A complete sentence has a definition, and if we are looking to define a piece of writing as a complete sentence then it must conform to that definition/rule. Lacking any part of the specific criteria necessary, the item in question cannot be termed what it cannot satisfy by definition. Saying that line 8 of the poem is a complete sentence without a verb does not satisfy what a complete sentence is defined as and must be termed some other type of sentence. Such other types of sentences can certainly convey all the required information necessary to understand the full meaning of what is intended in as little as one word because of the other characteristics you mention (implied/assumed subjects and/or verbs), but still do not meet the criteria to be called a complete sentence because implied/assumed subjects/verbs have no place in the definition of a complete sentence as such must be present.

            Assuming and implying may very well be “satisfactory” in your field of mathematics, but comparing math to written language is the old apples to oranges adage, and solving this TOTC requires precision and no shortcuts—bending on even one rule while attempting to solve this is a misstep, IMHO.

            Again, it all boils down to your tolerance(s), and I am by no means the grammar police/rules expert, and concede once again that we are dealing with a puzzle of a poem written by a man who admits he likes to make his own rules when writing.

            Line 8 is an imperative sentence which tells us what to do because of the NF,BTFTW information given just prior to this sentence, and in keeping with the spirit of this thread, IMHO, treasures is still the key word.

            Thanks for the healthy debate.

          • Bowmarc,

            You have jumped so far down the rabbit hole on this one!!! Assumed parts of speach are parts of the sentences that assume them. There is no explicit presence in the criteria of the definition of a sentence. And math is wholly structured on language. Logic is essentially verbal mathematics. Your term “tolerances” is essentially my semantics. Tit for tat if you will.

            Perhaps it is your reluctance to see things differently that prevents you from seeing the poem as FF intended. You assume, more than I, that there is a verb explicitly contained in the sentence yet what makes your assumption any more correct? Nothing. Perhaps you should have asked, “Since line 8 is being called a stand alone sentence with no explicit verb recognized. what would you consider to be the implied/assumed verb?” It may be that library lady had one in mind in consideration of the rest of the stanza. You jumped to the conclusion that her take was incorrect because she called it a complete sentence without indicating a verb. That is on you not her.

            In the future, if you don’t quite see things the same as someone else because you have a preconceived notion of what something should mean, or because you are supposing that the words they used mean what you have come to believe they mean, then perhaps you ought to ask for clarification. Otherwise this so called healthy debate has been a rather large waste of time. I have only entertained it thus far out of courtesy of replying to those who direct posts toward me. If only debating about the definition of sentence got you to the chest!

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • @Ann – A simple web search will turn up the definition of a complete sentence. For the sake of completeness and clarity, here are a couple of examples:

            1) A complete sentence has three characteristics: First, it begins with a capital letter. Most importantly, the complete sentence must contain at least one main clause. Each main clause contains an independent subject and verb and expresses a complete thought.

            2) A complete sentence must have, at minimum, three things: a subject, verb, and an object.

            Please note that in both examples a verb is used as a component that must be present to meet the criteria for calling something a complete sentence.

            Put another way, a complete sentence assumes nothing because it must contain everything needed to be called such, including a verb.

            And to be clear, I didn’t assume/conclude anything, just asserted the rule above to what I thought was stated by LL about line 8 (that such was a complete sentence without a verb) especially since she brought up rules of grammar earlier in the post. Apply the rule correctly was my point. Not to do so is creating an error that most likely will compound, IMO.

            And I don’t know that we can pick and choose which rules of grammar to follow and which not to when reading FF’s poem, but again, IMHO, don’t call something a complete sentence according to the rules of grammar if such does not satisfy the definition of same in said rules.

            Or do so at your own peril.

            Or because bending or ignoring or assuming or implying is tolerable/acceptable in other disciplines.

            That’s where my comment about tolerance comes in.

            My comment was in absolute strict adherence to the rules which she originally brought up in the discussion (100% zero tolerance).

            You seem to be OK with satisfactory, assumed, and implied compliance to same (Some level lesser than 100% zero tolerance).

            That difference is not a question of semantics, IMO.

            This is a discussion board, and people aren’t always going to agree on things, as is the case with you and I regarding this particular matter.

            Thank you for the discussion none-the-less, and yes, if only debating about anything got anyone the chest, but here we all are homebound by winter with scant else to do.

          • Bowmarc,

            There is no correct response when it comes to semantics. Didn’t miss a thing.

            -Ann

          • @Ann – To quote one of my favorite movies: “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

            You can have the last “word”—I’m done quibbling over the matter.

            🙂

          • Bowmarc,

            Inconceivable!

            And btw, when it comes to thinking one knows what semantics means it’s well . . . semantics. 🙂

            -Ann

  33. Ann, I should have maybe clarified, this quote causes me problems with my solve because I mostly take Forrest at his word and although I know a lot of searchers take it for an absolute no on punctuation, I don’t think that’s really true for line 8.

  34. Shouldn’t we in this thread be discussing “The Key Word”?

    For what it’s worth, FF said “a word that is key”. I take that to mean one of four things:

    1. That the word in question is, literally, “key”. Please remember that a dictionary is your
    friend.

    2. That the word in question is a synonym for “key”. (examples: arch, first)

    3. That the word is important/instrumental in solving the poem.

    4. That the word in question is pronounced the same as “key”. (example: qui, a French
    word that means “who”)

    Please note that FF didn’t, when introducing us to the concept of “a word that is key”, state that the word is contained in the poem.

    As always, this message is part of what I believe. The actual facts may diFFer. I am not much of a PIanist.

    • Tall Andrew, I started off a couple of days ago by posting my first comment on a word that is key. I put forth my opinion that the key word is “high”–not that no one has looked at that word before but because I haven’t seen anyone on any thread I have read here or elsewhere interpret it the way I did (which helped me find the “blaze” in my solve). Anyway, Ann and I got in an interesting discussion but it did lead into a discussion about HoB. I was offline last night and the discussion really took off and now I am confused myself! I am impressed with all the highly intelligent people who contribute but I’m a bit lost tryiing to keep up as it’s lead not into a lot of grammar discussion but also the little girl from India and WWWH.
      So maybe you can help me–what’s the rule when this happens? Does someone usually offer to go to the discussion forum for WWWH or HoB and post their next comment so the discussion can move over to that forum and follow the rules or does everyone just not worry about the rules and keep discussing whatever they want, lol?

      • Sorry that should have been “Not ONLY” into a lot of grammar”, etc. I do wish I could go back and edit these comments after I have posted them!

  35. Change of subject from the banter that is going on now on the “Odds and Ends” page.
    I’m wondering about “if”………

    Iffin I find it, what will I do?
    Iffin I find it, don’t be blue.
    Iffin I find it, I will share with you.

  36. Begin it where… ‘Big in’ – ‘Big in, WWWH’ Something ‘big’ that warm waters are halting in…

  37. It makes honest and reasonable sense to me that every imaginative and definitive searcher here on HoD (and beyond) should wish to adopt their own personal ‘key-word’

    and although i’m fairly certain that “42” doesn’t quite cut the mustard on this occasion (without mentioning any names directly ..cough cough couZAPSgh) ..i’m also fairly certain that i don’t know what this particular word is either, so am as officially unqualified to comment on others preferred “words” as i am to officially possess two heads myself, let alone two brains

    but one thing i’m sure of is that the ‘keyword’ is much less appealing to attempt to interpret, less exciting to analyse and even less enticing to wildly guess upon given the large margin of reasonable error that is so obviously involved in deciphering such an integral and pivotal singular word/syllable (or two) to too easily lay claim to, tbh

    too big in fact to utter publicly or to even easily convince ones-self of absolutely, in any given sane instance imho – even if you’re NOT related to Sparrow 🙂

    so let’s be brutally honest here, the key-word is quite simply the ‘Roswell’ of TTOTC

    – i.e: we all have an opinion on “it” but are all too s#*t-scared to share it, apart from the fear of gifting some random stranger (or rocket scientist) a hard earned and therefore undeserved advantage, i believe it’s more accurately and empathetically that we’re just all too scared to be completely, utterly and (perhaps) foolishly wrong

    So, given that i’ve spent previous precious meta-data space yakking/prattling about nothing serious to date, and perhaps semi responsible for much of Goofy’s hair-pulling, expletives and general frustrations, and considering also that “completely & utterly foolish” is officially my middle name, then i feel that i’m more than qualified to take a good stab in the dark at “it” for a change, at the very least to redeem myself somewhat, if not to make better use of Dal precious Tron Space, so in a word…

    1) What if “cold” eliminates those other three geographically warmer southern States

    2) What if ‘brave” includes the two northern Grizzly bear inhabited States

    3) What if “wood” refers to the most intensely wooded State

    4) What if “wet” was what Forest regretted saying

    5) What if WWWH is simply a (bigger picture) thermal area

    6) What if TFTW. is the distance from WWWH to canyon down, and not to HoB

    7) What if “30 days” relates to more easily to MT or WY ‘finders keepers’ legislation

    8) What if discovering Indulgence is more a process of elimination rather than inclusion

    9) What if one person cannot solve this riddle, but twenty/fifty/one hundred easily could

    10) What if Dal or Goofy found the TC and donated it all to improve the plight of the impoverished hobbit species

    11) What if the moon was made of green chee-wait a minute..now i’m just being unrealistic!!

    personally, i’m def hopeful for #10
    🙂

    • Hello hobbit man!
      This:
      8) What if discovering Indulgence is more a process of elimination rather than inclusion
      Agreed.
      Also. Consider the key word in the poem as it is derived from the cornerstones of the poem…
      Idea
      You know…cornerstones…
      KEYstones…
      Or the word aide… or both, aide idea….you pick.
      Just an idea…oh yeah..isnt a synonym of “the big picture” idea?

    • Hurray! Our frog from down under (where Orion seems to have fallen over?) has surfaced! I agree with all your points you clever Hobbit, except #6 and #9, and I’m still on the fence about #11.

    • Hobbit,

      Brown, because it’s capitalized and doesn’t begin a line.

      Otherwise halt, because it where warm waters well . . . halt, and our search begins.

      No qualms here about sharing my thoughts. I don’t care if I am wrong because as you point out in #8, process of elimination or deductive reasoning won’t hurt. It will only show us where not to look.

      I find it ironic that some are reluctant to share specifics on most of these threads. There is much assumed in practicing such reluctance, such as:

      1. Others will understand your specifics the same way you do.
      2. Unless an explanation is given, others will understand the reasoning behind your specifics.
      3. Others will instantly agree with your specifics, abandon their own thoughts, and try to beat you to your own solve.
      4. Value your specifics above all else.
      5. Or maybe they just think you are FF and if you ever gave specifics, would instantly take your word for it!

      I could go on, but I think this is enough to get the gist of it. While I certainly understand the potentially realistic worry of solve thievery, there is nothing to ensure that any specifics shared may not be misinformation as well. So unless someone actually takes the time and effort and expense of looking into every possible specific we can post here, and by that I mean putting BOTG to actually retrieve the chest should any of us be correct, I would venture to say that your secrets are likely safe even if explicitly stated.

      Just some irony I noticed in reading over recent posts and the elusive tones they carry. Not providing specifics is about as useful as saying “Just read the poem.” We all already have one problem/riddle/set of clues to figure out. I certainly don’t need a gazillion more to ponder in attempting to figure out the most important one, that of the Chase. A lot like answering a question with a question, which I have been known to do. I don’t imagine this post will help anyone much but I felt it needed to be said.

      All IMO.

      -Ann

      -Ann

      • Ann’O
        Let’s just assume someone has come up with a brilliant solve – the correct solve – with all but the blaze confirmed and therefore the exact location of the treasure being the only thing left to solve and then they share it in explicit detail here – for arguments sake, let’s say it gets searchers within 500′ of the TC. (Those who have spent years working to solve Forrest’s poem and Newbies like myself, all within the same reach suddenly – with little or no effort on my part – suddenly I am up there with the best and hardest working searchers). Let’s assume that they posted their solve and all of the logic and reasoning that backed it up as the correct solve. Let’s say most of the searchers agreed that it made the best sense of any and all solves they have had or that anyone has previously shared. What then? Several thousand people all showing up to the “spot” to be searched? Where is “The Thrill of the Chase?” (Plus likely many risking life and limb to get to it before anyone else – deep snow, dangerous weather etc. etc.)
        If I, a newbie happened to be “lucky” (in this sense it would be debatable) out of those thousands around me at the search area and spotted the TC first… what accomplishment would there be? I get it, there are many who are thinking only of the “money” aspect of finding the treasure.
        There can be no doubt that this is not what Forrest would want. Otherwise he would have been far more direct/obvious in his poem. I know it is my opinion only here, but I believe Forrest wanted us to get out there and experience some of what he was able to experience. To enjoy and appreciate what is around us – the TC being a carrot of sorts to get us looking – even if only online, as I know not everyone is able to do botg.
        I see nothing wrong with searchers on here keeping their favorite solve(s) under wraps. Yet so many have shared solves that they have given up on, shared their memories and experiences that they have had because of the Chase. They help others find quotes from Forrest, and opinion or not… sharing their thoughts and ideas helps everyone. I personally have had random comments I have read that got me thinking of and considering things I hadn’t before.
        Honestly – without actually handing the treasure to someone on a silver platter, what haven’t Dal and others with their blogs done to help even the newest searcher have a shot at finding the treasure chest? No one on Dal’s blog is obligated to share anything – yet again, so many share so much.
        When a searcher (especially those who have been around for a while) say; “just read the poem” or something to that effect, I think it is honest and good advice. I wouldn’t expect, or want any one on here to say; “Here’s the keys to my truck, a map with the treasures location marked on it… oh and some gas money.”
        When a long time searcher finally finds the TC, I will cheer for them… they will certainly have earned it, but there is no doubt they will have gained a lot more than the TC along the way thanks to Forrest! IMO

        • Ann – While I can appreciate where you are coming from, I have to agree with HotL’s examples of why most choose to keep the specific solves to ones self, myself included. I don’t consider it “selfish” because it truly is more about the Chase on a personal level and that spark that Fenn has given us to always dream. For me it’s the experience of having the ultimate Ah-Ha moment of discovering the resting place of Indulgence.

          I honestly would not feel right if someone shared specifics and I took those and ran with it and by some grace of God, was the first to recover the chest. Where is the “fun” and decency in that?

          Ann, I believe that your intensions of getting others to “share” more is true and pure in wanting to help solve this great mystery, but like everything else in the Chase….it just ain’t that simple. JMHO 🙂

          • GG – when Cynthia posted the video of our Yellowstone search, unfortunately “sharing specifics” – within a week someone went to that very (vague, but could be found with effort) spot and hauled out, from a National Park! (highly illegal with massive fines and jail time if caught), at a distance of approximately 1 mile, a massive buffalo skull and the horn tips that we had found and documented in the video. Snow on the ground, cold weather. Never again will I publish any “special place” that I have found. There are unscrupulous, greedy, and unethical people in this game and Cynthia and I learned a hard and heartbreaking lesson in human nature. Enough said.

          • Hi Sally: unfortunately, a prime example of what we can expect should the eventual finder reveal where the chest was hidden.

          • Sally, Zap
            My mind so doesn’t function in that manner, so it is always hard to imagine people acting that way, but as I am reminded everyday in the news…it is the sad truth.

        • To replies of my post about specifics

          So, I was not suggesting that anyone surrender specifics or any information they do not wish to share. I was just pointing out the irony in not doing so as if the information we each hold individually is any more relevant or accurate in terms of actually finding the chest. Obviously, if someone had such vital information they would certainly be further along in finding the chest, whether new or old to the Chase. I am not saying that sealing ones lips is a ridiculous idea. It is quite natural for humans to keep such information to themselves unless and until they discover it may not be so special.

          From what I have seen so far, those who have been at it longer have no more advantage over those just joining te Chase. All the information needed to arrive at the same sought after conclusion, finding the chest, is already out there. FF is the one who provided all of that. Everything else is speculation, gesture or yes, lots of hard work and research. And while the ideas and possibilities are wonderful fantasies (unless and until one leads to the chest) then there is really nothing to worry about in divulging. Whatever information one searcher thinks may be privy only to them, is equally likely to be known independently to another. And vice versa.

          Is there a valid concern that someone may take posted information and run with it? Sure. But that lies with the one running not with the one posting possibilities. And let’s face it, all ideas are possibilities at this point.

          To be sure, I am not taking away from those who have been at it longer than others. I would hope that there time is/does pay off. But I also have o give no less credit to John/Jane Doe who walks into a bookstore tomorrow, comes across FF’s book and buys it, and next week has the chest in hand without ever having been a part of the blog community. Is this likely? Not any more or less than it was with any of us who had to start the Chase somewhere.

          And lastly (I think for now anyway). someone could just as easily post misinformation about what they believe to be specifics about a solve just as easily as they could post their true thoughts and feelings on the subject. The point is, none of us can know whether such information is good/valid or bad/misleading unless we took the time to really look into the matter, which likely would involve BOTG at some point. The notion that chances of a searcher finding the chest increase with time is an allusion. And there is a term for that though it evades me at the moment.

          I reiterate here my example of my geometry classmate in college who worked tirelessly to come up with his own solution to a problem the class was tasked with. I asked if he wished for me to take a look at it to see if I could help. He agreed and showed me what he had. He was only missing a single piece which I myself could not fill in directly. So I left for the moment only to return about 10-15 minutes later with a solution. I offered to try and guide him to get it on his own and so we commenced. But, it was just beyond his vision and finally he gave up and asked for the missing piece. I had not pushed him for this result but after weeks of trying to an answer on his own, he was ready to hear what I had figured out in a brief moment of clarity. So I shared. He kicked himself for not having seen it but I assured him it was not obvious to me either. I just happened to think of when I got back to my dorm room.

          Moral of the story? It’s okay to ask for help. As a newcomer (I don’t want to say searcher as I haven’t put BOTG) without the books (for the time being) and little to no knowledge about what has transpired over the years, I rely on those who have the books, have been paying attention to the last ten years, and who I feel should have a better sense of where not to look. Does that mean I want your next solve so I can go there myself and look before you? No. But don’t give me further riddles or puzzles to solve in order to understand what you may be alluding to as your idea of what the big riddle/puzzle in all of this may mean.

          As a disclaimer, the entire post was meant to be rhetorical. To get everyone to think a little bit harder about how and what they share. As I noted toward the end, I myself am guilty of not divulging specifics all the time. It’s perfectly okay not to do so! But, whereas those who believe they have specifics to keep to themselves feel sharing them would “ruin everything” (for lack of a better term), I was merely suggesting that perhaps in sharing (much like my classmate) someone else you fear may run away with the info could potentially fill in a piece you may be missing.

          And currently, only you value those specifics so dearly because they are related to a solve you are highly interested in (not necessarily because they are correct). Others may not feel the same about your specifics. It’s one thing to have a great idea, it’s another to show someone that it is truly great.

          And there is no need to perpetuate the thrill part of the Chase. FF has done that all by himself. What will the searcher community do should the chest ever be found? Will the thrill too be gone? I certainly hope not. Life is full of adventure and it’s not all bottled up in the Chase. Should the chest be found, I would hope searchers would still venture out into the big wide world, whether it be th Rockies or another continent. We ought not to put all our eggs in the same basket.

          To those who commented, I appreciate your shared thoughts. Please do not take anything I post personally.

          I give you one last bit of food for thought. There was a young Indian boy (from India) named Ramanujan who had no formal training (education). He had read some books and had a writing tablet. He was introduced to the world of math through some of what he read and in entering that world he scribbled away vigorously on his tablet. He wrote down all sorts of thoughts and ideas and dove far into the recesses of his own mind. He kept journals on what he pondered and cam up with.

          Eventually he reached out to some known mathematicians in England regarding his work. He wanted to share his ideas and know what others thought. He was dismissed by some but not all. Eventually one or two took some interest in his work and wondered where he had learned such math.

          He eventually made it to England and collaborated with those who took him seriously. He would return to India and tragically die at a very young age. What remained?

          For those of you who don’t know, Ramanujan is essentially the father of modern number theory. His unforeseen vision and ideas have become an entire branch of mathematics. And much of his work was not originally proved by himself, or if it was he left them out of his notes. He was that good. In the years since much of hiw work has been proved true. And there remains much to be proved! But if the specifics of his ideas had never been recorded and shared with others, we would not have the fruits of his labor we have today. He could just as easily have passed away without a trace of his ideas remaining. And perhaps somewhere down the road someone else may have come up with the same ideas all on their own. But because his ideas were preserved (such as Chase info is on blogs like this) and shared with others, we now know a great deal about numbers we may not otherwise have ever known.

          Okay, this is a very long post. Thank you for your patience and understanding. Everything is IMO.

          -Ann

          • Ann –
            “To those who commented, I appreciate your shared thoughts. Please do not take anything I post personally.”

            I will start out by saying, that is the one thing I never do here. It’s all just thoughts and ideas. None of which, to our current knowledge, are neither right nor wrong.

            I am not a veteran searcher by any means, but what seems to be how things generally “work” (or at least what has been my observation in terms of sharing more specific info) is that Winter is time to speculate, plan, and take in the info that is suggested here. All will apply this (or not) into their solve(s). Then it’s all out BOTG! When those solves fail, and a searcher is satisfied that he or she has explored that avenue to the best of their ability, this is when a more detailed specific solve is most likely to be revealed to the community.

            It’s shared because the searcher admits that this particular solve is over for him/her, but someone else may find something else they missed. I don’t think that sharing ATF is a waste of info because it failed for that particular searcher. They did the work and they deserve a “first shot.”

            All above is IMO, and I can appreciate your’s as well. You have contributed some very interesting ways to look at things and THAT is why I like participating on hoD. I also hope that every so often, I contribute something interesting as well. 🙂

          • Geyser, I think I’m starting to understand it. Several of the clues point to the keyword. The keyword leads you to a certain historical event. Research this event and you find more information that’s in the poem. The blaze is in the poem itself, but you won’t understand it until you get the keyword.

      • Ann – IMO it’s not “selfish”…it’s a TREASURE HUNT! It isn’t a puzzle to advance science or mathematics. The vague nature of most comments will be more easily understood in this context. There have been many efforts to engage in group think by individual groups of searchers. Thus far, there has not been a successful outcome to that process. There are dozens, if not hundreds of “busted” solutions posted on this very blog; and if you follow other blogs, reddit etc, you will find hundreds more solutions accompanied by valuable feedback from “the searcher community”. If you want to eliminate certain areas as well as better understand in depth how individuals have interpreted the poem, those solutions are an excellent place to start. As HotL says, no one is going to hand their ideas over on a silver platter! As Forrest has said, a “hole card” can make or break a deal. Most searchers keep their cards close until their hand is busted. It’s not selfish, it’s how the game is played!

        • Ann O’
          As to mislead others by posting a thought or opinion – as you have twice suggested others have done I would suggest it is impossible for anyone to do so.
          Why?
          To mislead or misdirect would require ‘knowing’ the facts (i.e. 100% sure what WWWH is, or where it is etc. on the rest of the lines of the poem) or having first hand information from Forrest that no one else has. I for one do not believe anyone has such information. Otherwise… they would be in possession of the treasure. And if possessing the treasure, what would it benefit that individual to then mislead?
          Now on the other hand, putting random thoughts out there that may be a little over the top… well, even I have done that, but not to mislead. Some times – whether I buy into the original thought or opinion myself – it sparks a train of thought I likely wouldn’t have had otherwise.
          I think this is why people enjoy Forrest’s scrapbook posts so much whether there is an actual clue/hint being given or not.
          There are searches for the TC going on in all four states – and for each state there are many different ideas among those searchers as to WWWH and HOB.
          IMO one needs to look at thoughts and ideas here as simply that. They may be cryptic at times because they want to find like thinkers to sound their ideas off of – for ‘their’ solve.
          IMO, no one is trying to mislead – otherwise they wouldn’t share even a failed solve let alone any of their thoughts, random or not, because they could ‘mislead’ someone to the correct solve if they are wrong on their solve anyway. Kind of a catch 22
          I know, probably not expressed very well. I enjoy people’s thoughts and ideas they share whether I agree with them or not.
          So… back to the word that is key. I believe there are key words through out the poem that must be understood correctly to identify the correct WWWH, the correct HOB.

          I trust Forrest too that there is a specific word that will be key as well since he has stated that. A password/keyword can lock a cypher or online account… but it can also be a word that ‘verifies’ that one has the correct answers. Much like a “key” to a test – that makes it quick and easy for a teacher to verify the student got the answers correct. I believe the word that is key is much like this. It is the litmus test that one has solved the poem correctly.
          Now I would love to hear others thoughts on that idea on the word that is key – I promise… no misdirection or misleading intended.

          • HotL,

            I think you have misunderstood my two posts about misleading others. I don’t believe I ever said anyone has already misled anyone. I was trying to describe how information that is deemed “specific” to someone (enough so as to prevent them from sharing it here explicitly) is not distinguishable than explicitly posting “specific” information as misinformation. What do I mean by this?

            Let’s say you asked me about my solve, if I had one. Many searchers are reluctant to share specifics about a solve. But what is to prevent someone from giving solve specifics that have absolutely nothing to do with the solve they are unwilling to share specifics about? The short answer, nothing. I could easily make up a solve to share with you in response to your inquiring about my solve. And that is all I was really getting at. Whether people share specifics here or not there’s just no way of telling what worth they hold to the one sharing or to the one they are shared with. And I know there is a clinical term for such a situation though it eludes me at the moment. But it’s akin to the fear of the unknown.

            People are afraid to share real information they feel is unique to their solve unsure of what someone else may do with it. The irony I was trying to point out is multifold. The receiver of the information doesn’t know how valid or invalid the information being shared is any more than the one sharing knows what the person receiving the information will do with it if it is shared. The other part of the irony is that if someone has an incomplete solve (and since no one has the chest it is safe to say, at least as far as having the chest is concerned that no one has a complete solve) then by not sharing specifics they may be missing out on feedback that may help fill in any gaps or at the very least confirm their thoughts and ideas. Again, the outcome cannot be known unless and until the specifics are ever shared.

            All that said, I do not expect searchers to share where they will be looking next with everyone here before they have had a chance to look themselves. That is unrealistic. We don’t need to as each other to walk one another through their intended search for the coming Spring. But would it be unreasonable to state what we think Brown means definitively? For instance, if a solve included Molly Brown being part of it, would it completely destroy a searchers solve if they shared that information? I don’t know. It is ironic to presume that it would (and arguably that it would not).

            And that is the last bit of irony I was referring to. Have I myself been guilty of not stating a specific? Yes. Oz10 can attest to that. I have since cleared that up with D. Crocket in my post just prior to this. I also have the benefit of not intending to put BOTG so I am slightly biased toward sharing my original thoughts and ideas, though I imagine most anything I may be able to ponder has already likely been pondered before.

            That reminds me of one more irony. Specific information about someone’s solve is not also “special” information. If one can come up with a solve anyone is equally capable of coming up with the same solve. The notion that ones thoughts or ideas are unique to them is quite presumptuous. Again there is a technical term for that which eludes me at the moment. There may only ever be one person or group of people capable of being the FIRST to solve the mystery, but that does not equate to them being the ONLY one(s).

            Okay, I think I have said more than enough on this. All is IMO and none is intended to be taken to heart or to offend.

            -Ann

    • well that is incredibly strange, I just did a post on another board that is similar to your #9.. and then I read your post after reading a few random posts later, two ideas only a few hours apart, much in the character of confirmation that we (as a community) have reached a saturation level in the set of ideas, In which I believe the riddle has been solved 100 times over.

      even your choice of one of your numbers, “100”, just incredibly coincidental… so in complimentary theme: “fascinating” uttered in a Spock voice.

      • Hi Writis: I’ll take the contrary opinion on “collective solving” of the poem by the searcher community. I think the starting point has been correctly mentioned only a handful of times on the blogs, and since I don’t believe the clues can be solved in shotgun fashion (e.g. someone solves 1 & 2, someone else solves #5, another solves #8, etc.), the only searchers who have made any headway at all are the ones with the correct WWWH.

        • interesting Zap, that the idea wwwh has been mentioned on blogs, but “only a handful of times”

          It would make sense if it is one of the more common wwwh of course, (mentioned on the blogs). but I struggle with the thought of “only a handful of times”.. (which would mean not one of the more common wwwh), I struggle with the idea, only because ff seems to imply more and more searchers continue to get the correct wwwh, I would think if that was happening, the wwwh would be also mentioned more and more times on the blogs…

          • Writis, can you expound on how you feel FF has implied that more and more searchers continue to get the correct WWWH?

            Incidentally, I have never seen the WWWH in my current solution mentioned on a blog, and I am happy with that.

          • Hi Writis: given the small fraction of searchers who actually post on blogs, it would probably be more surprising that the correct WWWH had ever been mentioned at all. Dal can probably estimate the number of unique commenters on his blog — I have compiled stats on the earliest 1500 posted comments, and unique commenters in the last 9 years far exceed the number of solution posters in that same period, as you are doubtless aware.

            It is only natural that if people augured into the correct WWWH within the first 2-3 years of the Chase (w/o the “benefit” of all the ancillary information that Forrest has since put out), then that number is only going to increase as time goes on and the number of active searchers increases year over year.

            I thought my WWWH was original when I found it, since I had never read of anyone remotely close to figuring out the same spot. But after a lot of digging on multiple blogs I found exactly one person in the first five years of the Chase who had come to the same conclusion (though for somewhat different reasons). That number has continued to rise as the years have gone by, but it is still a minuscule fraction of overall searchers. Still, that number has to be multiplied by an unknown factor: the ratio of *all* searchers to blog posters. It wouldn’t surprise me if that factor is more than 100.

          • Hi Aaron: I believe Writis is alluding to this ATF:

            Forrest Gets Crazy Mail (12/15/2013): “Hello Forrest, May I ask – is it still true that now, even with searcher numbers doubling in the last year, you still don’t know of anyone who has solved beyond the first two clues? Emily”

            FF: “Dear Emily, Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f”

            Link: https://dalneitzel.com/2013/12/15/forrest-gets-crazy_mail/

          • Thanks Zap, that one does qualify as continuing to get WWWH, though 7 years old. Seen anything about continuing beyond that?

          • I think it’s because they havent got the keyword yet. I think that word is sand. It leads to a historical site in Colorado.

          • Read about the Sand Creek Massacre on wiki. It answers some questions in the poem. Most important who Brown is.

          • Hi Aaron: that’s the best example I can give you within a single quote. But one can also look at trends in the quotes. Goofy related back in March 2013 that only two parties had solved the first two clues:

            https://dalneitzel.com/2013/03/23/the-poem/#comment-4996

            That’s consistent with Forrest’s famous post here on 9/26/2012 under the thread “Stephan Returns to the Blaze”:

            “I use a small f because I’m too lazy to hit the shift button. All of this cyberspace verbiage is conspicuous by the absence of talk about where warm waters halt. Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.” Link: https://dalneitzel.com/2012/04/05/stephan-returns-to-the-blaze/#comment-636

            By November 2013 (Moby Dickens) that has changed from “some/two” to “several”: “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues.” (Several being more than two.)

            By July 2014 (MW Q&A): “That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues.” So now it’s “a few,” which doesn’t really distinguish it from “several.”

            By 2015, it’s “more than several” that have figured out the starting point:

            MW Featured Question: First Clue (3/26/2015): “Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars.”

            FF: “No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. …”
            Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-first-clue/

            Finally in May 2017, in “The Lure” post-screening Q&A, we don’t have a figure on 1- or 2-clue solvers, but we have a stat on “people” within 500 feat of the treasure:

            Q: “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?”

            FF: “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by.”

            So that’s a little more recent than 7 years ago, but still data that is getting a bit stale.

            Summary: (2012) two/some –> several –> a few –> more than several –> lots (2017)

          • Thanks for the quotes Zap, I had forgotten about the 2015 one. After several have found it, its hard to believe the clues get progressively easier. I suppose the key word may be required for that.

          • Hi Zap,
            thank you for combining of several ATF about first 2 clues. When I re-think them I have simple conclusion: if searchers had solved 2 clues i.e. 1) WWWH and TIITCD (maybe + NF, BTFTW) they just didn’t solved what is the hoB (where to put in). Statistically they had stopped at multiple points and had BOTG at all stops. Several searchers stopped at correct hoB and were very close to TC. But they didn’t recognized other poem clues after WWWH/CD. They concluded that their solutions for WWWH/CD were wrong and never returned to this spot.
            Maybe we have a good lesson here: if you are confident in your solution of WWWH/CD just continue to explore this area. Like JDA that had returned >30 times to his Big/Small search area.
            IMO, but only searchers with strong self-confidence will fount the blaze and TC.

          • Hi Zap, ya I thought I was all original too with my favorite wwwh, then found someone who mentioned mine a long time ago, and for a fully different reason… (I am currently seesawing back and forth between 2 though)

            I know we are in the Same “forest”, but I don’t think we are in the same canyon. I guess there are “1000s” to choose from 🙂 has to be several that fit the bill..

        • Hey Zap,
          Interesting that you say you had to dig to find WWWH on some other blogs, I haven’t found any mention of mine doing a cursory search using a few choice search terms, and I’m pretty sure we are using the same word that is key.

          • Hi surfthesky: I deliberately muddied the waters by saying I searched multiple blogs trying to find anyone who had used my WWWH. That doesn’t exclude Dal’s, btw. It’s not necessarily something you would find by a keyword search. For instance, that early individual I found settled on the same WWWH that I did — without the benefit of having found Forrest’s “word that is key,” at least as far as I can tell.

          • Thanks Zap,
            Yes I see what you are saying. There have been folks in the area but they always land on a more arbitrary choice of WWWH. I have searched using the keyword as a search term because the solve should at least mention it for obvious reasons, though probably not because they know it’s the key word.

    • ‘ello Jdiggins – lovely to hear from you as always, but not entirely sure what you mean by ‘cornerstones’ in relation to a keyword – is there something that you are not saying..or i’m unaware of..or both..or all three..or none of the above perhaps?
      ( wait a minute ..i’m confused again 🙁 )

      Zaps (aka “Mr Eagle Eyes & Ears” ) – great to see that you’re still up to your ankles/knees/neck in HoD, but who the heck is this Orion character huh? ..nope, never heard of him!! but am ultimately happy/slightly shocked to hear that you might agree with any hypotheses offered from my part (of the hemisphere) tbh

      re: #6) given that the fullstop (period) exists after NFBTFTW (which seems to relate to after ‘canyon down’ in the natural flow of the sentence) it’s also possible that it may previously refer to the distance from WW to CD given that it’s included within that same sentence ’tis all – and ‘put in below HoB’ is a completely separate statement too

      consider also that HoB seems to be a stumbling point historically re: LGFI and “..others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure” ..which makes me wonder whether HoB is offered as possibly the easiest clue to search, yet the hardest clue to solve – not exactly a red-herring as such, but..
      (hobbit logic maybe.. but still conundrumically logical all the same imho)

      re: #9) are you familiar with the “Long Spoons” allegory?

      re: #11) how do you truly know.. i mean, have you actually been there?? 🙂

      re: #1, 2 , 3 & 4) seems to me that all four of those words point hypothetically north

      also, i heard a rumour (i-net-chatter) that WWWH is indeed a thermal area (?)
      …anyone? ..anyone?? (Dal??) ..ANYONE!??

      • C. Hobbit-
        Never, ever, not even for a heartbeat, believe what you read or see or hear on the internet. That includes this sentence…but not the sentence before.

        • I agree with that statement. Sometimes the inner net is just out to make you make yourself crazy. Careful with the truck radio and pink Floyd music too, just saying.

      • Hobbit re: #9) are you familiar with the “Long Spoons” allegory?

        Cr*p, realized we were in H*ll,
        while handing the tools for the feast;

        as occasion we peaked from our shell,
        only to be forked split, even greased;

        we held our friend’s nose,
        as we couldn’t hold our own;

        yes better to skip the prose,
        to settle the hard cold and unknown;

        cuisine is much better,
        served crunchy, cold even halftone;

        if friends act as waiters,
        better at all than all served alone.

      • Hobbit,

        You’re going to have to be a bit more specific (hahahahaha) since there is a great deal of thread preceding your what!?! 🙂 Thanks for emphasizing my point! All IMO. 🙂

        -Ann

  38. There are a number of words that could easily be “key” to the poem IMO. Many of those have been discussed quite extensively. One word I have personally thought about a lot as being a “key” word is: “Home”.
    Why? Because that word is used in so many ways in the English language and can greatly effect the ‘who’ or ‘what’ and even ‘where’ the hoB is.
    For instance: “Home is where the heart is.” (or even, there is no place like home.) Like ‘warm waters’, Brown is a warm color. In this sense hoB could be somewhere that is a literal home, or merely an area one grew up in, played in, learned in, or fished in. A “special” place for one reason or another to Forrest.
    There is also; “Home, home on the range…” which suggests an extremely large area – however in the poem, could it mean something similar to this? In other words, a good sized area such as Hebgen Lake – it being the hoB (trout) as some have suggested. Again, it could be a good sized area like this that belonged to, or was occupied at times by (a mountain man – an Indian tribe) someone named Brown – now Brown could be a first name as easily as a last name. It could also be a nick name… anyway, the idea being that a bigger area is being reduced to a smaller area – (For example only! – the warm waters areas of Yellowstone being narrowed down to an “area” where Mr. Brown lived and worked… though not necessarily narrowed down to a physical house.) {IMO only, I don’t believe Forrest ever said one has to leave the area where in the WWH.}
    Then there is home as a structure. Though Forrest has stated that the TC isn’t associated with a structure, it does not mean a structure (ancient or modern) isn’t involved in the clues to get to where the TC is. In that sense, an hoB could be due to the owner’s name, a log cabin (brown wood) or a home painted brown… heck aren’t the Ranger Stations and associated buildings an ugly brown color typically? (Which IMO, could tie into a trail head sign (Park signage – also brown) where you see a man with a walking stick… to indicate a hiking trail… i.e. Dal’s photo at the river etc.) So I haven’t ruled out hoB as being a physical structure like that, close to a trail that may lead me to later clues, such as a creek without a paddle… …now where was I?
    Let’s just say there are many ways to use home that could be part of a good solve… but what is the “key” to how one uses “home” in narrowing down their particular hoB?
    Home run, Homestead, Home on the range, Home row, Home team, or even the Home ‘key’… …could “home” be the word that is key to nailing down the real “WWWH and the real HOB”? – pull out your salt shakers… you may need ’em!

      • wwwamericana – Couldn’t Forrest have just used ‘chalk’ to rhyme with ‘walk’?:

        Begin it where warm waters chalk…
        Not far, but too far to walk,

        In the Poem, It really sounds like:

        Begin it where warm water salt…

        To a child, anyway, it might.

        Salt is a precipitate. So is the chalk you see near my WWWH at Madison Junction; on the Firehole on Canyon Drive, and across the Madison River at Nine Mile Hole. But, would using ‘chalk’ have been directed to fly fisherman, thereby being categorized as ‘specialized knowledge’?

        In England and Scotland, where fly fishing originated, chalk streams are prevalent.

        • Lisa,

          I applaud your openness about specifics! (If indeed they are specific to a solve you are interested in.) I have heard of this area before though I have not been drawn to it myself for purposes of the Chase. I am aware of some of the direct connection to FF, though I have not read the books. The place names are certainly alluring. I get the Junction. I like the Canyon Road. I thought maybe you were headed to salt waters or the oft times formations of salt spires hanging around with the above post. I have not done a great deal of looking around the area (in terms of GE not BOTG) except to look at the junction in terms of a WWWH. I understand why it is considered a WWWH but I am not convinced that is what WWWH means. No need to convince me but I am going with it for the sake of this area,

          I guess I am wondering what your HOB is. I am assuming it is the Madison because of the trout, something I am not in favor of regarding HOB, though I have not rules it out completely. I am also wondering how far you are able to follow the poem in terms of your solve before requiring BOTG. I imagine at some point in the clues, BOTG are a must. But, as I have not seen a clear identification of the nine clues, it is hard to say.

          You certainly have fun with words and I would bet you could have quite the conversation with FF given the chance! Looking forward to whatever reply you are willing to share. Thanks in advance!

          -Ann

          • Hey, Ann. I made sort an interesting connection about the WWWH stanza and thought I’d share it with you. What if Forrest was trying to get us to think of a single word that relates to the whole stanza? I think the word for this stanza is Sand. I’ll explain why I think this. So first, if you go where warm waters halt in the poem, you land on the letter S. Take that S and drop it down a line and put it in front of the word And giving you the word Sand. Not to mention that ALL waters usually halt in sandy regions. I think he added the word warm to make your mind go other places. So the next line, take it in the canyon down. One of the alternate definitions of the word down is; Archaic. a hill, especially a sandy hill or dune. You could even say that line is describing sands going down an hourglass. Okay, so not far, but too far to walk. A common Idiom that uses the word sand is “to draw a line in the sand.” Meaning to set limitations. (Too far to walk) Then the final line, HOB. One of the definitions of the word home is: a place where a person or thing thrives. Then an alternate definition for sand is: a light reddish- or brownish- yellow color. I think he capitalized Brown to make you think he was talking about a person. The dictionary I’m looking at even has Sand. listed as an abbreviation for the word sandwich. I remember him saying to bring a sandwich and flashlight. I think he was giving us a clue. Sand even extends beyond that first stanza if you think about it. For example, the “heavy load[s and] water high” line. The heavy loads being sandbags and water high being a flood. Isn’t that what they used to do to minimize damage of flooding, stack sandbags? Plus you have the word sand again with the last letter of loads and the word and.Now, I have no idea how to use this information. But you have to admit that it fits that stanza pretty well. It just seems like too many things to be coincidence. Maybe that’s what he means by “keyword” It may also be what he means by “As I have gone alone in there.” He’s trying to tell you to find a single word that encapsulates an entire stanza.

          • Ann – But home of Brown could also be Brown’s Camp in this 1912 map drawn by Gallatin County Surveyor, Fred M. Brown, who camped there while building roads in YNP and the area with his father:

            https://cdm16013.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15018coll5/id/177

            That’s now called Baker’s Hole Campground. Thanks again, Dal, for posting that map in your Grayling Creek 2017 story!

            Those Loch Leven trout come up and spawn there in Fall. I know just where to find a secret fishing hole there, which was said to be at least 10′ deep by Old Fritz, who happened to be walking in his waders back from there on our August 2019 trip.

          • NoName 6 – I say that.’S’ is a recurrent theme in the Poem:

            AS
            treasureS
            richeS
            waterS
            it’S
            loadS
            answerS
            So

            I say, drop that ‘S’ down to the last stanza, and head to the perfect, lazy S-curve for the Fall spawn of Brown trout, heading up the Madison River from Hebgen Lake:

            “So hear me all and listen good,
            Your effort will be worth the cold.
            If you are brave and in the wood,
            I give you title to the gold.”

            Lots of ‘Sand’ deposited along that Baker’S Hole shoreline!

          • Lisa, I think I figured out how to use that keyword. It’s describing a historical event in Colorado. The blaze is the FF in effort. But you wont understand until you read about the historical event. You also learn who Brown is. I’ll post you a link to the wiki page should you care to learn more. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre

          • Did you happen to notice who Brown is? And what fort was mentioned? And who led the military to the Indians?

          • Lisa, no. It’s historian/author, Dee Brown. He witnessed the massacre. He was born in Arkansas. The Arkansas River runs right through that section. The fort that is referenced is Fort Wise. In the 1850s the United States struck a deal with the Native Americans and signed a treaty at Fort Laramie. It reserved southeastern Wyoming and most of eastern Colorado as Indian lands. A few years later, gold was discovered in the Pike’s Peak area. So the US negotiated a new deal with them that would give them access to the gold. That treaty was signed at Fort Wisdom. It shrank the Indian land to 1/13 the size of the original agreement. So naturally, the Indians had a lot of resentment towards the US. In the stanza of the poem where he asks, “why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to see?” I think he’s writing from the point of view of those Indians. The Indians also resented their chiefs for signing such an awful deal. So a lot of them didn’t follow the treaty and continued to hunt and travel through those lands. Fast forward a few more years, and the Civil War breaks out. The soldiers in that area were told to take a tougher stance on the Natives that weren’t following the treaty. So more times than not the soldiers would just kill them on first sight. So after a while of this the governor of Colorado sent a message to the remaining Indians in that area to meet them at Fort Lyon to dicuss a peace treaty. A short time later, they were instructed to go to Big Sandy Creek and wait while flying a white peace flag. Chivington later showed up at Fort Lyon and took command of the soldiers there. They were shown the way to Big Sandy Creek by James Beckwourth(Be worth) And you know what happened after that. They had a lot of witnesses described what happened there, and it was absolutely despicable. You could say the US were the savages. Total disregaurd for human life. For the most part, that still rings true even today.

          • NoName6 – Thank you for that totally awesome rundown! That all makes sense to me. Great connections! Great solve! Thinking about author Dee Brown and Col. Custer and Wounded Knee now…

            Again, thanks for sharing!

          • To NoName and Lisa,

            NoName,

            Not sure about the single word idea though it would be cool to have a word that is ket for each stanza. Would at least make the whole thing more interesting. What struck me about your first post is the mention of color. I had considered a lesser known meaning for warm (red, yellow or orange) which oddly enough those can be mixed together to form brown, and wondered if any waters in the Rockies were known for those colors.

            Your later post about sand and the massacre is also interesting. I always enjoy an identifiable Brown. It has been suggested that Brown may refer to a people of Brown tone such as the Native Americans or Latinos. So that is also a possibility.

            Lisa,

            I like how straight forward and open you are. Since I don’t have any BOTG plans I am more interested in helping someone else figure it out who may actually do some searching. I’m in it more for the problem solving aspect. That said, I have noticed your affinity for the area you mention. I have seen others discuss the area and it seems to be an area of great interest and clearly important to FF. I get the WWWH, the HOB (in terms of trout, though I am not convinced yet that Brown refers to trout) I imagine you have searched the area before. I am wondering, if the WWWH and HOB are correct, where do you feel previous attempts in the area have failed? I ask because after finally feeling moderately comfortable with identifying a potential WWWH (outside of YNP as I have not been led to YNP for any particular reason so far in terms of the poem) I am able to get into the third stanza of the poem on the map and then I feel BOTG are necessary. I am wondering if that is where you are at in YNP.

            The Gallatin map!!!!!! I cannot tell you how wonderful it is that you have shared this! As you should know from earlier posts, I have been looking for just such a map! I had actually been looking for a forest service map of the area not unlike the one FF may have used in his adventure in that area, The fact that there is a potential HOB on the one you provided may lend credence to the use of a “good map.” I have stated elsewhere that it would not be unreasonable for a particular map to be more helpful than others. I haven’t really given Gallatin much thought except in the context of FF’s story. Now I have a map to explore and some further digging! Thank you so very much!

            I think you would be a very fun searcher to be with on a BOTG trip, or any trip for that matter really! You certainly have a pleasant personality.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Lisa,

            Two more quick notes.

            1. What’s do the red lines on the map indicate? Is that the path Dal took in his story?

            2. Do you suppose this map is similar to the one FF used in his story? And have you tried to retrace his steps in that area? I would be interested to know what your thoughts are on the route they took through that area.

            Thanks again!

            -Ann

          • Lisa, it’s funny you mentioned wounded knee because I was lead there too. Dee Brown wrote a book about wounded knee from the perspective of the Indians. Has Forrest ever said that it’s not in SD? I always think about how the term “tarry scant” is the exact opposite of Rushmore. I also found an interesting place in Arizona. Do you know if he’s ever specifically ruled those states out? TTOC just say’s in the mountains north of Sante Fe. Someone could have just assumed he meant the Rockies and just never corrected them.

          • Ann – Thank you for all your wonderful compliments and acknowledgements! My fly fishing librarian friend does say I am really fun to search and adventure with. Except when I keep reiterating the details and specifics of my Baker’S Hole solve. She never had to hear, for years, about my Cabin Creek Solve. Everyone here on HOD did, though. I used to post as E-asterisk previously. A lot.

            I just read a large format film print book yesterday, here at the library, about the movie they made from Ambrose’s Lewis and Clark book. There was a great print of the original map Lewis and Clark followed included. I have compared that map to where Forrest and Donnie rode in the story in TTOTC. And thought about when they walked 91 miles from West Yellowstone to Bozeman along the Gallatin River. My ‘X on the map’ is at Three Forks, MT. Wondering if my outermost target blaze is somewhere Forrest went or saw frequently while flying?

            Zoom in on that 1912 Gallatin County Surveyor’s map to see the key in the upper left hand corner. I think it has an explanation of those red lines. I can’t see it here on my tiny Moto G phone screen.

            I do know, from photo verifications made by a searcher named, DeCall, that Trail #205 above the Cabin Creek drainage is where Donnie took a picture of Forrest riding atop Lightning the Horse. I could see my mountaintop Cartouche-like blaze in the background. That solve is still alive in my mind and heart. But I am still afraid of encountering My Grizz on Cabin Creek Trail #207.

            My hidey spot out Baker’S Hole was inundated with ‘water high’, when we did BOTG/BITW on Memorial Day Weekend of 2019. And we were too busy fly fishing to go back out there in August of 2019. Forrest would probably say God should subtract those hours we spent fly fishing vs. treasure hunting.

            Giggles.

          • Lisa, I thought the same thing about the text color of the poem. There’s a couple words in the poem that could be connected to home, you’ve got “place” and “keep”. As for the Black Hills, I know that Devil’s Tower is a sacred place to some of the Native American tribes. It kind of looks like a giant tree stump. I wish I lived closer to the Rockies. There’s so many interesting places to explore. I live in the Appalachins. The only thing to see in those are the adverse effects of mountain top removal.

          • Lisa, have you ever read anything about Fort Bent? It’s really close to Fort Wise/Lyon. I misunderstood that Wise/Lyon were the same fort. I read today that Fort Wise was flooded in 1866 by the Arkansas River. Not long after, it was set on fire by the indians. A captain George Armes was able to save it before it was completely desroyed. You think that could be the “waters high” and possibly a double meaning for “the blaze”? The first meaning being the FF in the poem to point out the importance of the word fort. Also, Bent’s Fort had two locations. Bent’s New Fort and Bent’s Old Fort. They were both lucrative trading posts that were owned and passed down through the Semmens family. (4.44 acres for $5.00 down and $46 total investment. Can you imagine?) This could be the “riches new and old.” These are all historic sites. I’m pretty sure there are some pretty harsh penalties for taking anything from these kind of sites. I’ve heard the phrase, “take photos and memories and nothing more,” refering to these sites. Also, being that they’re historic sites, the government and Semmens family keep them maintained. Maybe that’s why Forrest was so sure the immediate landscape would remain the same. I think that comment kind of rules out Yellowstone because it basically sits on a massive volcanoe hence all the geysers and warm waters. But once that errupts, it will look much different than it does today. Oh, I also read that those forts are at the end of the Sante Fe Trail mountain route. The more I read about that area the more I like it for a search area. To be continued…

          • Lisa,

            I like this sort of connectivity! Gallatin is interesting as you know from the story about getting lost and the elusive map. I too, am interested in finding that old dirt road. I also like this sort of Brown. The key shaped county is cool and would be an interesting take on key word!

            Early on in my introduction to the Chase, I would have been extremely interested in this sort of connection. It offers up a lot of connects not only to the pome but also in terms of info from ATFs. I am not sold yet on Baker’s Hole.

            It’s not so much Baker’s Hole that I am not sold on as it is Brown’s Camp. The appeal of Brown’s Camp of course is that it requires the right map to even know about it, a good map if you will. There is also the obvious explorer/trailblazer aspect to Fred Brown. So what could possibly be keeping me form this particular HOB?

            There are two things really. The first is that it is a stretch to think of Brown’s Camp as a home. Sure there are actual houses (though I stray from such man made structures), graves (as in someone has returned home in the more spiritual sense), there is even home as in hometown or rather where someone is from (a place of origin if you will). But, in the case of Brown’s Camp do we feel such is a sort of home? If it was say an outpost along the Oregon Trail, or a first settlement, or the like and happened to be called Brown’s Camp I may buy that. But, if it is just a place where a group camped for a night or two (or what have you) and is known as Brown’s Camp because it happened to be a stop along the way then maybe not so much.

            The second thing is, of course, how do we come up with Fred Brown as THE Brown from the poem and/or book? Seems like the only way we came across his name was via the map and a specific one at that. I don’t think I would have known of him otherwise.

            While I definitely like this sort of connectivity and possibility in terms of the chase, I think I have developed a more practical and observational approach to ascertaining the meaning of FFs words.

            By this I mean, instead of trying to pair words in the poem with possible place names, or even with specific facts such as a hundred year old map of an area visited by FF and drawn by a Brown, I look at the words and ask myself, what is it that FF saw to make him describe it this way? To me, the poem has become more visual and less trivia like. Sort of like the difference between I Spy and 20 Questions.

            I Spy tends to use a more descriptive approach in identifying the final solution whereas 20 Questions is more fact based and can pretty much cover anything. I Spy requires some element of visual confirmation or context whereas 20 Questions can be purely based on thought. Thus one starts of with ” I Spy something….” vs the other “I am thinking of something…..”

            FF didn’t just think this whole thing up. He actually went there! And he invites us to go there too. So we must need visual clues. And so for HOB (and the others) I think he quite literally was near or around a living space home to something or someone Brown. Something or someone others would be able to see as well. Thus my mire with trout. I cannot see that this river is a home to brown trout and that river is not.

            There is the following possibility (though it still requires knowing more about trout than most people do). FF has been cited as having asked if some searchers dipped their toes in to see if the water was warm. This notion of a sensory observation coincides with the visual clue theory discussed above. We can confirm we are on the right path by dipping our toes in!

            Now, if we also knew what sort of waters trout live in *I forget which at the moment but I think it’s cold right?) then the toe dipping test along with beginning where warm waters halt could certainly point us in a direction to where trout are likely to reside. But for this to work, I would need to know about the nature of trout habitat, something the poem does not reflect ( I cannot speak on the book).

            Instead, I posit that there is something or someone else (Brown) that would not require habitat knowledge in order to see that they are/were/have (etc.) live at the particular spot FF is describing. That to me would be a more plausible HOB.

            All is IMO of course.

            -Ann

          • Thanks Lisa and Zap should get some love.
            191 – Gallatin Road – Gallatin Gateway –
            NIGH; = North Intrastate Gallatin Highway
            word that is key in the poem and a good map.

            when is dal going to start selling hot dogs and T-shirts in your search area?

        • Lisa – I betcha worked alot of those “connect-the-dots” puzzles when you were little, didn’t you.

          I think this puzzle has multiples of the same numbers and you gotta figure out which ones work to make the picture.

        • No problem, Lisa. I read about wounded knee a bit today, and I think there was a Brown involed in that massacre as well. But HOB could be as simple as the Arkansas River. I haven’t really looked that area over very well just yet.

        • Lisa, another thing I noticed today. Look at some of the alternate definitions of bent; civil engineering; a transverse frame, as of a bridge or aqueduct designed to support either vertical or horizontal loads (heavy loads). It can also mean determined; set; resolved. I remember Forrest saying that you could find it if you have some resolve.

          • I think the resolve is at the Wally world. It’s always a good thing to get some resolves when you pick up the elbow grease, never know when your going to need extra.

      • Salt,

        Funny video: Youtube search for Wyoming Car Wash
        first entry, 2.8K views. Cannot make the link work, sorry.

      • It’s hard for me to take HotL’s message seriously (so I’ll take it with salt),
        because HotL seems to be ignoring the importance of capitalization in
        “Brown”.

        Sometimes I hum when I work, gardening. I hoe, hum, hoe, hum, etc.

        As always, IMO.

        • Tall Andrew;
          LOL! That is partly why I suggested the salt shaker…
          however, I do believe one must consider what the meaning of “Home” is referring to in the poem. Is it a place, a structure, or a broader concept etc. Though I do pass on it being the word that is “key” as stated by Forrest – while still remaining a key to nailing down “Brown” so you can marry it to the map.
          Just as WWWH could mean so many different things, HOB can mean so many different things. Otherwise there would only be one solve that everyone here would always come up with and the TC would have long since been found.
          Searchers speak of Brown bears, Brown trout, Brown homes (by color or name of the resident) and so forth – that leaves a lot of possible homes of Brown. Which is correct?
          One has to determine IMO what Forrest’s use of home is exactly to know if they not only know they have the correct “Brown”, but also the correct WWWH. Then they will need to see if the next clue is related to those two solves in their search area.
          Then again… salt can bring out the flavor of something…

    • HotL – Great ‘home run’ post! You hit a ‘Homer’, right outta the park! Like, outside the YNP boundary?

      How about?:

      Home base = Pentagon = Star shape inside (pentagram)…throwing Salt over my left shoulder…”Field of Dreams”.
      Summer home = Fennhaven Cabins in WYS.
      No place like home…Yellow Brick Road…YNP Boundary Trail…Professor Marvel…marvel gaze.

      Just some ‘ideaS’. Let’s play word clustering around ‘home’!

        • The Odyssey!?! Didn’t it take him ten years to make it home? Let’s see… has the hunt been going on for 10 years? Is it time to have that homecoming? A homecoming for Forrest’s bracelet too – that would make him happy I would think! An Odyssey… a long voyage? Forrest’s trip down the river with his raft… am sure he “put in” a good number of times (both out of the river and back in). Did he have an epic monster “Brown” to fight? Did it lurk in a special hole in the river – and he called that monster “Brown” – whose home he knows the location of? THE – HOB? Maybe where a creek feeds in just below the HOB?
          Odysseus’s bed (at home was a living tree) hmmm… Home… no place like home where you can sleep in your own bed after searching for the TC.
          Home Base – Forrest had to return to his Home Base before (air base) he could have a homecoming. Then there would be Home – America and Home – where Peggy was waiting for him.
          Did he have a secret “home base” in his youth that was to him like a “homecoming” near WWWH and the hoB each time he went there? What treasures did he bring with him – a chocolate bar, a grapette, a special fly that he tossed into the HOB from his “put in” below?
          Homely: In the British sense of the word, where people say you are homely, they mean they feel ‘at home’ with you…? Did he feel at home… and maybe there it is… the HOB is such because it was his ‘home away from home’? Where he felt at home (at ease, at peace, wanted to eventually rest in peace there…) Do warm waters “halt” near there because time (and warm waters) seemed to stop for him there? To him the waters halt because he does not need to go further? Because he is Home? Leaning up against that special tree… taking a nap while he looks out over that home where “Brown” waits? Wouldn’t that make “home” ‘key’ to him and thus his poem.
          Home Depot… got to stop there to get a wheel barrow to wheel out the TC – j/k
          Home bound, Homeward bound, Home Body, Homophone…
          Home Alone (going through the spice drawer), Home Made, Homer Simpson – well… scratch that one. 😉

          • HotL – Another excellent post! Heard “Homeward Bound” from the ’70s as I read it.

            Call me Circe. That island was called, Aeaea, right? Kind of a campsite for Ulysses, really. Holy Moly! Gonna go look for that tree you said Ulysses lived in. Is that like Owl’s House in the 100 Aker Wood?
            Oh, look! There’s Winnie! Run!! Or , could that be a nod to an Indian tree burial?

            I think you are going to need a fly fishing float tube or a ‘brave and in the wood’ canoe to get the treasure out. Or, fly fishing waders, belted up high, wading boots with studs and two backpacks

          • Lisa,
            I have no doubt that the lyrics of the time contributed to some of Forrest’s poetic expression. I love how he uses unique expressions (no doubt picked up during his youth and in association with other in the Air Force and elsewhere) when telling stories. It makes it more personal and real to the reader.
            IMO, I do believe one must determine what Forrest means by home in reference to hoB to be able to get the correct “Brown”, making home ‘key’… but not key to the whole poem… just to whether Brown is animal, mineral, man, university, etc. etc. If not it could directly effect one’s Loch/Luck
            Although speaking of home… Home plate is about 200′ from second base (whether walking or running around the bases). From there to a home run and then the dugout… would that make 500’
            Philosophical question: If you are in the wood and rooting for your team, would they hear you? No doubt they may need to listen good!

          • HotL – Batter’s box, dugout …get back in the box! And don’t forget: you will get a Brown stain on your britches, when you slide into ‘home plate’. What kind of jelly did Forrest like on his Mother’s ‘homemade’ biscuits again? Was it fresh raspberry? From bushes somewhere
            North of my hidey spot at Baker’S Hole? Which is ‘home’ to many current and former members of the Brown bear species?

          • Hi Lisa – personally i LOVE Simon & Garfunkel ..and thanks too for your earlier ‘welcome back hobbit’ message a few months ago

            btw, i’m not currently orange, nor have i ever been a president of any country – just for the record (Dal)
            🙂

    • Sounds complicated all this salty brown fish talk. I have never really followed the blog until the last few days and even that has been sporadic and short. I believed my own visions gave me answers so never cared too much to look at what people were saying. My wife always scolds me because she knows I am away in my own little world and not listening half the time. I always remember something Arthur C Clark said; Too much information can inhibit your own thinking (or something like that).

      I do find it interesting how we all think differently. Its a bit like an explosion. Everyone given the same task, but just blast off in all directions. I can see why people get lost in woods and end up in deep water when blending their ideas together. To me, it all needs simplifying.

      As for the keyword. ff has already clearly told us what that is many times.

      The key I am anxious to identify is the one he left in the chest. I have a good idea what that is, but I get frustrated not knowing for sure. I hope its what I think it is, because I score points with my Mrs…..when I jump up and down, pointing and shouting “I told you so..!”.

      • Please pardon my skepticism about “As for the keyword. ff has already clearly told us what that is many times.”

        You might/should want to at least consider indicating that something is
        your opinion. Otherwise a (non-skeptical) person may automatically
        believe that you are always absolutely correct in posting statements.
        Hee hee!

        The above is all part of my opinion. You probably would not want to be
        exposed to all of it. Hee hee! (again, in my opinion.)

        • I think a better adjective would be gullible or naive. I don’t get the IMO stuff. If someone is that prepared to take your word as gospel, I doubt telling them it’s your opinion would make much of a difference to them. P.T Barnum had an adjective for those folks. And apparently, there’s one born every minute. IMO, of course.

      • Chase Champion wrote: “I have never really followed the blog until the last few days and even that has been sporadic and short.”
        ———————————————

        Chase, I don’t think you’ve missed much. People here are talking about the same things, more or less, that they were talking about four years ago.

        You also said: “I always remember something Arthur C Clark said; Too much information can inhibit your own thinking (or something like that).”

        Totally agree. All that “information’ is really just clutter. You are wise to rely mostly on your own thinking.

        Fenn blogs generally tend to be susceptible to group-think. Once some idea gets embedded in the group’s consciousness, that idea seems to be repeated as fact, no matter how illogical it may be.

        Go it alone is best, in my opinion. As Forrest has commented, read the blogs for >>> entertainment.

        Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  39. I think if the key word is not unlocking every line in the poem for you, then you have the wrong key word and methodology.

  40. Ann O,

    “While I cannot disclose this WWWH at this time
    (for confidentiality purposes) I will suggest an exercise
    that helped me.” odds-n-ends 2/16/20 3:11 pm

    “I find it ironic that some are reluctant to share specifics
    on most of these threads.” the-key-word 2/17/20 4:51 pm

    Irony duly noted!
    D.C.

    • D. Crocket,

      If you read my posts again carefully I counted myself guilty of that which I was posting about. So pay attention! 🙂

      That said, the only thing that would prevent me from sharing something is if it were someone else’s information they shared with me in confidentiality. Thus, the use of parentheticals. I have no qualms about sharing my own thoughts freely, however. I respect the wishes of others as much as I respect the choice of bloggers not to share specifics. I at ;east shared how I arrived at the WWWH I was unable to share which, if followed, can lead anyone to the same place. So take it how you will, just don’t pick and choose from my posts to criticize unfoundedly.

      All IMO.

      -Ann

  41. Ann, thank you for the excellent answer on the previous O&E thread. I feel like unless a few more hundreds of thousands of neurons would start firing up in my brain soon, I won’t make that connection. Btw, if you need to know anything from the book TToTC let me know, or if you need to borrow it. I’ve read it three times, found a good hint but haven’t figure out how to use it yet.

      • Oz10,

        No worries! Allow me to try and help you make the connection.

        So in talking about WWWH, many seem to be trying to identify where WWWH is. I just realized why my previous post may have made the task difficult. Let us look at the quote directly and that may help clear it up….

        The line is “where warm waters halt.”
        The line is not “where warm water halts.”

        That is probably about the clearest I can be on the distinction I was describing in the previous post. And I think that distinction is important. Let me know if this helps you any.

        All IMO.

        -Ann

        • Ann,

          I did get that part regarding where warm waters halt and not where it is. Maybe I’m missing one definition for one of the four words, possibly ‘halt’ in relation to waters if warm turns out to be a straightforward temperature related meaning and not something else.

          • Oz10,

            I just used Free Dictionary to ascertain various meanings of the nouns in the poem and played with those to see what made sense. Not really played but after compiling a synonym list they kind of fall together. Obviously depending on which synonyms you choose you may be led to a different idea of WWWH. But I think it’s helpful in trying to figure out what that phrase may most likely means. All IMO.

            -Ann

  42. Hey guys! New searcher here. Does Mr. Fenn typically “open” the search season like he closed it last winter? If so, is that usually in a certain month?

    Also, does he make comments about snow needing to be completely gone to find the blaze? I understand he closes the season to keep people safe, but is it also to allow the clues/blaze to be found?

    Thanks!

    • RHM, I think it’s more to be safe for everyone more than anything. IMO, the blaze is a double meaning. One is right in the poem, the double FF’s in the word effort. It’s so you realize the word Fort. And I think the fort he’s referring to is either Old Bent’s Fort or New Bent’s Fort. Perhap Fort Wise/Lyon. They’re all within about 40 miles of one another. In the 1860’s Fort Wise was flooded (waters high) and damaged badly. It was later set on fire (second meaning of blaze). But you could make an argument for Old and New Bent’s Fort (could be the the riches new and old) They were both lucrative trading posts in the 1860s. An alternate definition of bent is a civic engineering term for a frame for a bridge or aquaductic designed to hold vertical or horizontal loads. (heavy loads and water high.) IMO of course.

      • Hey NoName, I think your ideas are pretty interesting, especially the FF in poem = blaze. But how do you square the rest of your ideas in this thread with the notion that you don’t need any specialized knowledge?

        • That’s a valid point, surfthesky. Forrest did say you could find it with just the poem. But define specialized knowledge. Could you find it without looking at a map you think? You got me thinking though. Good point.

      • Thank you @NoName6! That’s what I think, too, but wasn’t sure if there were quotes to the contrary – ie – blaze visible in snow.

        And your ‘effort’ thoughts are interesting. I like the “FF”. That goes along with others who think the double cross plays into the solve somehow. Thanks fro the info!

      • NoName6 – Posting a response to you here about your ‘bent’ as ‘resolve’ meaning.
        Look up Fort Bent and General Stephen W. Kearney and the invasion of New Mexico. That could be ‘re: solve’…

        From Jenny’s Mysterious Writings Q/A:

        “Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think?”

        I am ‘Hell bent” to solve this thing!!!

        • Yeah, Lisa. I spent a good bit of time looking at maps of the Big Timbers area. Some one did make a valid point on here that’s kind of changed my thinking. They said other than the blaze being FF all the other ideas require specialized knowledge. Forrest did say you could find it with just the poem. But it seems like you would still need to look at a map at least unless you happened to live in the area. So I don’t know how literal to take that.. Maybe if the blaze is pointing to the word fort. He could be describing various forts all over the Rockies. But it seems like that would still require specialized knowlege. So I don’t know. The only other way I could think to find it would be by the names of places, but again, that would require looking at a map. Definitely a valid point.

          • NoName6:
            Upstream you mentioned Fort Lyon CO, which is 3900 feet above sea level, and east of the valid search area (the TFTW map). Am I missing something? How do you get from there to 5000+ feet elevation.

            mBG

          • Yeah, I’m kind of off that idea now. Surfthesky made a comment that said the solve required too much specialized knowledge. I remember Forrest said you could find it with just the poem and a map. You should check out the new solve I’ve been doing. It involves Little Firehole Canyon and Middle Firehole Canyon. It’s floating around here somewhere. I just don’t feel like typing all out again because it’s kind of long.

          • Lisa, check this out. Surfthesky had me questioning my solve. So I decided to look elsewhere. It’s based on something that Forrest said during one of his older interviews when Too Far to Walk first came out. He was with Doug Preston and another author (can’t recall his name.) But they were asking Forrest what the unintended clue was in TFTC. Forrest points out the cover and says the picture on the cover was taken in the exact place he used to swim in the Firehole River. He then points out the the green along the border of the photo. I’ll link the interview if you want to hear the comment. https://youtu.be/EsTdZRwnydw if you don’t feel like watching the whole thing, fast forward to about 15:30. Anyway, I took this to mean that the green represented trees so it was in a clearing somewhere surrounded by trees. But what if the green represents the Green River in Colorado? So I started looking at maps up and down the Green River and found Little Firehole Canyon and Middle Firehole Canyon, which are right on the banks of the Green River. I’ll post a GE link so you can see it. https://earth.app.goo.gl/RswZmS So then I started trying to connect the words in the poem to this location, but wasn’t having much luck. Then I started thinking about the semicolon used in the poem. It’s always seemed like it has to have some specific function regarding the solve because they’re really not used much outside of in a dictionary between definitions. So that gave me the idea to look the word semicolon up. Semicolon; a punctuation mark indicating a pause typically between two main clauses that is more pronounced than that of a comma. So I had two locations to work with so I thought of dividing the poem in two, all the words from WWWH line down to the semicolon in one section. And all the words below the semicolon line in a second section. Then I associated the Little Firehole Canyon with the top section, and the Middle Firehole Canyon with the second section. Then I got the idea of taking the words in the poem and seeing how many words you could spell out using the two location names and perhaps these words were the 9 clues. So it would be well over 9 if you count them all because you’ve got small words like “and” and “if”. But what if the rule was you have to be able to take a letter from each of the three words in the two location names? If you use this method starting where the clues begin, you get exactly 9 words. Do you think this could mean anything? Maybe it’s in Middle Firehole Canyon.

  43. another thing a semi colon means if you ask a youngster these days,Project Semicolon has encouraged people to draw — or get tattoos — on their bodies of a semicolon to represent support for those dealing with mental illness and suicide. “A semicolon is used when an author could’ve chosen to end their sentence but chose not to.

  44. Just another fenn observation in self isolation…

    Tchepone… chap one ( jaw, mandible)

    from poem “…gone alone…” – goneal one- gonial (jaw, mandible)

    one side of this is the word mandible. Sounds like man de bull, man of bull…
    leads to lammasu or cherubim. Ark of the Covenant… ie FFs talk about indy movie.
    Rabbit hole really doesn’t go anywhere, just found it interesting.

    the other side of this is what shape a mandible is…
    A horseshoe. AKA the omega symbol.
    Is there a horse buried there? So many questions.

    This discovery is just another confirmation to stick to my area. Regardless of current events, I plan a BOTG asap.

    Sorry to hear Fennboree got scrapped.
    Stay safe, stay healthy, & remember to enjoy the little things in life.
    Go in peace.

    • If I understand the announcement correctly, Fennboree hasn’t been scrapped.
      It appears that a re-scheduling of the event is going to happen, or is kinda
      in the works. Please stay tuned to the postings for it. I plan to.
      As always, IMO.

  45. Dal – Sharing this thought from a post on Jenny’s treasure Facebook page:

    Question:

    Is the ‘word that is key’ in the Poem related to a lock?

    My response:

    Key Word: ‘Brown’. There are two Loch Leven trout on the Baker’S Hole interpretive sign.

    Old English loc, of Germanic origin; related to German Loch ‘hole’.

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