Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety One

pinkThis page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the newest Odds n Ends page.

Please click on the comment balloon below to contribute to the discussion of  Forrest Fenn’s Treasure Hunt. Please note that many topics have their own pages. Please scroll through the blog to see all the discussion pages. There are also stories, scrapbooks, searcher’s reports general information, tips from Forrest, a rumors blog and even email responses from Forrest. So please look around and if you want to make a comment please use the most appropriate page.

Thanks…

 

dal…

610 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety One

  1. I’m eager to hear what the big surprise is that is to come out this year. I’m sure everyone has a theory and I won’t get into mine because I’m sure it’s just a rabbit hole lol.

    P.S. Forrest, please drop a scrapbook! The off season is driving me crazy!

    • One “surprise” is that Forrest admitted in Cynthia’s video from May 2019 (that was just made public less than an hour ago) that the treasure’s location is in the sun a good part of the day, but later (off camera to Cynthia) that the treasure chest itself is not. Most of us probably suspected that, but it does strongly suggest the chest isn’t just sitting out in the open. (Again, not too surprising since Forrest has said people aren’t going to stumble upon it accidentally, and in the final Mysterious Writings Six Questions last year (2/4/2019, Question 1) he revealed: “I have zoomed into the hiding place several times but I wasn’t looking for the treasure. It cannot be seen on Google Earth. The only changes to that site today are those that nature has made.”)

      https://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-seven-is-a-perfect-number/

      • Blex,

        I would agree with that statement. I found a perfect tree in my search area that you can tell has been down for MANY years. I searched it pretty heavily but came up empty handed. Back to the drawing board for me lol

        • And it cannot be on a large flat area.
          I wish these type of statements where confirmed somehow.

      • Totally agree with the flagstone flat rock type cover. Just like the cache pictured in one of the stories. For me the tree concept would put shade on the treasures location. I say that only because, in my opinion, google earth can see trees fairly clear. The ground underneath is what you cannot go down far enough to see.

      • Smoky,

        I agree that the flagstone over a hole with the chest inside is a possibility but the only thing that hampers that thought is when Forrest said that the chest could be scorched by a forest fire. I can’t wrap my mind around that.

        TimM

      • TimM;

        Again, choice of words may be important. “Scorched” – A forest fire’s heat is intense. “An average surface fire on the forest floor might have flames reaching 1 meter in height and can reach temperatures of 800°C (1,472° F) or more. Under extreme conditions a fire can give off 10,000 kilowatts or more per meter of fire front.” Even under a flagstone Indulgence could be “Scorched” –

        “Definition of scorched

        : parched or discolored by scorching”

        NOT burned, but “Scorched.” JMO – JDA

      • I personally think the “zoomed inot the hiding place several times but I wasn’t looking for the treasure” comment is more useful, although the sun/shade thing can be too. Why do you zoom in to look at places on Google Maps?

        • Hi srch12345: could be a number of reasons. Maybe it’s in an area that could be impacted by forest fires. Suppose those trees are the only thing that would prevent visibility of the treasure’s hidey place from Google Earth?

          • The important part, though, is “…I wasn’t looking for the treasure”.

            So, why do we (meaning us, not Fenn) zoom into places on Google Maps? Now, that list of mundane reasons to do so is a likely reason for Fenn to do so as well.

    • What is the reference to a “Big Surprise” that is coming out? Did FF say something to that effect?

      My only knowledge is that FF stated that people will be surprised at the location of the TC. Was there something else?

    • Typically the off seasons give me time to reflect. This year has been different. I’ve had trouble getting focused until about a week ago. Now I feel like i can’t get enough! I hope spring comes in like a lamb so I can make my final search. I’m getting excited!!

      TimM

  2. Blex-
    I’ll post a link if she sends one my way. My guess is that the best way to find that interview is to watch her blog and keep an eye on KPro’s channel.

  3. Something New
    Mike over at Crave Creative informed me that they released a new utility app for searchers who use Apple or Android devices. It looks like a field reference tool for searchers . It has the poem and clues and definitions, a unit to record your coordinates…and some other useful tools for when you’re BOTG.

    For two bucks it seems useful…for some…maybe not for others..
    Anyway you can check it out here:
    http://www.cravecreative.com/fenn-treasure.php

    If someone buys it and wants to post a review here I’d be interested..

  4. zaphod said: “Forrest admitted in Cynthia’s video from May 2019 (that was just made public less than an hour ago) that the treasure’s location is in the sun a good part of the day, but later (off camera to Cynthia) that the treasure chest itself is not”.
    ———————————————————————–

    It’s nice of Cynthia to share. But it’s unfortunate that Forrest seems now to have to use searcher intermediaries to communicate.

    I watched all of that video. And, in my opinion, Forrest conveyed only information that is just common sense … mercifully.

    One of the others (Kpro or Mike) said Forrest’s comment was “huge”. Really? The location is in the sun, but the chest is not. How does this help?

    Again, thank you to Forrest for NOT revealing any significant new information. But I worry, as the months and years go by …

    Ken (in Texas)

    • I think it’s big for searchers who think that the TC is out in the open, but for many others it really doesn’t change their strategy much. Maybe it is sitting under a tree exposed, but nobody is going to stumble on the TC, right? It’s hidden away somehow.

    • I agree, Ken. Nothing in the interview was “huge” to searchers who haven’t been over-complicating everything. The only part that was relatively interesting to me was when he said that it’s location was some place that people wouldn’t normally go but even that is pretty obvious because of course it’s not in a place that’s heavily travelled. As he has said, no one is going to stumble across the chest.

    • Ken in Texas:

      “Again, thank you to Forrest for NOT revealing any significant new information. But I worry, as the months and years go by…”

      Two thumbs up.

      IMO .

    • Jeese Ken-
      Forrest has been using media sources to release info about the chest for as long as they have been interested enough to ask for interviews…

      This Blog
      Richard’s Blog
      Jenny’s Blog
      and more…

      Your accusation seems unfounded to me….

  5. For Low Landers the month of May is a time of flowers ( April showers bring May flowers). At higher elevations there can be snow in May in “The mountains north of Santa Fe.
    At one time if my memory serves me, the buzz was that the treasure was wet.
    We know that at numerous times we have witnessed f saying that the treasure….may or may not be buried(paraphrasing).
    Hidden under a firestone is possible where the area is in sunlight , but the treasure is not. Oh, what if the treasure is hidden under a pile of wood ( if you are brave and in the wood). Then the treasure would be hidden from the sun. could still be facing any direction including south, and could be wet or dry depending on what the weather girl dished out that day.
    One thing for sure…..this time of year in the mountains above five thousand feet both foot and vehicle travel can be impeded by snow and can be deathly dangerous. BEWARE OF RABBIT HOLES you could fall in and never come out.

    As a footnote….I can not envision f giving out any special insight to any individual that would be kept under wraps from all for a period of time.

    Time to resin up the bow.while sitt’in here next to my Junipher fire ” OH….This Age That We Live In IS Not The Old West……Where A Man Shot His Rival While Do’in His Best….

  6. There are many ways to drive traffic. It has been called “Grandstanding”.

    Revealing “classified info”, shrit-tailing off others, and even sharing revealing photos
    which is called ” baiting” have been used to generate traffic. It’s the neon lights of the internet.

    Let face it…..the Information Super Highwsy had become Pay Per View as coins are rolling in off “hits”. Some folks are traveling the USA in new Chevrolets paid in full by youtube revenue.

    I think what is needed is the poem, a good map, and maybe or maybe not Google Earth. TTOTC may aid.

    It is my opinion (and I’m not the only one and I hope some day you’ll join us) that all the side-bars, interviews, and youtubes may be in part the reason the treasure chest has not been found.

    A Sage once uttered ” In Much Knowledge Is Vexation Of Spirit”

    • Example of Fenn-glish –
      Me- when you borrowed the car, I gave
      you 20$ and told you to gas it up before
      you brought it back. Did you?
      Son- yeah, absolutely.
      Me- then why was it on empty when I
      went to work this morning?
      Son- we were in Missoula (120miles) when
      we gassed up, but we came straight home.

    • I think it’s hilarious, but keep wondering more and more, what’s the reveal, and we’ll obviously, what’s next. A reveal and timing of reveal, along with the grandstand, there must gonna be a show. And how are the mountains gonna handle this many people at once. Game warden and park service people are gonna need therapy by 2021 I’m certain. All the new searchers are YouTubers ahahah. OMG I’m gonna go paint.

    • I’d agree as i sit here spending time on a blog. Sometimes i get de focused when i listen to other opinions.

  7. It’s my understanding that she was prohibited by the Australian company that actually owned the rights to the video. I believe Cynthia explains it in her video..

  8. PS what were me and bobby McGee waintin on? DO NOT ADJUST YOUR RADIO near a BOX ELDER TREE, it might be hazardous to your mirror, the one above your basin?

    What took so long for me to see this? Forrest has been laying these hints out for a long time, but lately you cannot swing a dead cat by the tail without hittin a HINT.

    TT

    • Why is he Imbillacaly attached to his Special Place? Winter Thoughts II might have an answer.

      TT

        • Sorry bird dog, I am composing it now, but it is an abridged Scrapbook Solution that follows the Winter Thoughts (one) with the SC Books that ff posted shortly after the March 07, 2017 release, and shows how many then fit that place and how many fit the same place now. Several of my thoughts on this thread have been removed, the guillotine has struck, and I may reconsider any more postings…however, it has happened to me many times in the past without me commenting…guess what was in those thoughts?

          Hear is what could be the reason for the AX, I may have listened to this video on vimeo, and confirmed a big solve on the 4th clue, you decide, listen to ff at 5:22 is that what ff said HOB? https://vimeo.com/381563533
          TT

          • Watching this video reminds me of this in the TTOTC … Occasionally it’s wise for the fox to dress like the hound. So mostly I just stood there and tried to look interested. There’s some serious foxing going on these days.

          • Thanks for your reply Tom. I’m sorry to hear that some of your posts have been removed. I have not seen anything in your posts that deserve removal. I’ve seen some posts by other people that seem controversial or heated, but still remain on HoD. I don’t remember where all of my posts are, so I cannot go back and check them. But I do know for certain that a few of my posts have been removed almost immediately for no apparent reason, nothing controversial about them. I would like to know what the rules are that we apparently seem to be breaking that warrant removal of our posts.

          • TT, you wrote “…I may have listened to this video on vimeo, and confirmed a big solve on the 4th clue, you decide, listen to ff at 5:22 is that what ff said HOB?”
            Cynthia added that line about HOB as a joke. FF did not write that in the book. This is what FF wrote in SB 246: “My children’s book, Educating Ardi, does not contain any clues or hints to my treasure location.” Would a beaver “house” last 100 years? Are you sure that HOB is the 4th clue?

  9. Using only the info Zap was kind enough to mention;
    **One “surprise” is that Forrest admitted in Cynthia’s video from May 2019 (that was just made public less than an hour ago) that the treasure’s location is in the sun a good part of the day, but later (off camera to Cynthia) that the treasure chest itself is not.**

    I’ll say personally, anything new to ponder can go either way, depending on how anyone thinks it could or could not help ‘them’
    With that said, and like other have said, I’m not jumping out of my skin over this.
    The chest “location” being in sunlight for a good part of the day, really only talks about the area around the chest’s spot, yet nothing conclusive of the clues [ depending on each searcher’s idea of; site size ]. That alone cause bias and impractical thinking. In an observational theory…I could jump all over this and run with it… but there is not enough information for me to be honest about concluding it helps that type of method.
    Example; is “good part of the day” morning? or when the sun is high in the sky, or more towards a setting sun… or any variation of?
    Can the poem determine a west or east facing direction or even north or south to help with an idea?
    Example; the sun rise on the east side of the site, a high elevated part of land is east of this site area [ say a distant mountain } shadows the sunlight… does this mean the shadow area is not in daylight? or just not “in the sunlight” directly?

    Then we have; **…the treasure chest itself is not.**
    Not what? Was this all that was said?
    Is the chest not in sunlight for a good part of the day? or not in sunlight at all?
    Common sense might imply, the idea of “hidden” and “not going to be stumble upon” to mean; elude from sunlight hitting the chest. Then again… does the “hidey spot” get any light at all? Example ONLY; a small cave may not have direct sunlight, but light from the entrance could illuminate within the cave.
    Fenn did talk about debris blowing ‘in there’?… when talking about the meanings of buried vs. hidden are too close to call.
    https://mysteriouswritings.com/forrest-fenn-friday-questions-on-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-buried-or-hidden/
    __________________________________________________________
    Forrest has said:

    “If you look the word burial up in the dictionary, it talks about sepulchering, about entombing, and there’s all kind of definitions. Quite frankly, it’s very confusing. So I don’t want to answer the question whether the treasure chest is buried or not. Let me give you an example: if I laid the treasure chest on top of the ground, and some weeds blew in there and covered it up, now is it buried or isn’t it? Is it sepulchered? Is it entombed. So, it’s best not to go there I think. The clues will lead you the treasure and whether it’s buried or not, you can find it if you find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

    The Lure
    __________________________________________________________

    Even though I can make the conversation [ as shown above in Zaps post ] dance around a theory that might involve sunlight… hanging a solve on this information only, could leave a searcher hanging out to dry in the sun. Maybe this information will change slightly once everything is heard… But personally, I think the information above is no more than we already had… The treasure chest is hidden and shouldn’t be able to stumbled upon. ~ I’ll add, as I have in the past ~ even by searchers who have not solve the completed poem.
    LOL… y’all should have seen this coming… the question now is… can a searcher get within 12′ of the 10″ hidey spot without precisely following the clues? Another-words, can ‘anyone’ get that close by simple walking by that 10″ sq spot?
    I have to wonder, if ‘anyone’ *can* get that close without knowing about the poem.
    But, I am looking forward to [Cynthia’s] the whole conversation{s}…

    End of Commentary.

    • Seeker: regarding the additional info about the treasure chest’s exposure to sunlight, we don’t have Forrest’s words, unfortunately. We only have Cynthia’s recollection of what he told her. As I understand it, *her* interpretation of whatever it was Forrest said was that the chest is never in sunlight.

      • Zap ~**her* interpretation**

        ~ That was part of the point; Then we have; **…the treasure chest itself is not.**
        Not what? Was this all that was said?
        Is the chest not in sunlight for a good part of the day? or not in sunlight at all?

        Second hand info is used by all when we read magazine and new paper articles, even Dal’s recollections and post { Don’t mess with my poem comes to mind }… only we need to be careful of, as you said, interpretation of what was said.
        Example: Was this all that was said?
        There is always a chance anyone can transcript anything with the wording they hear and not be what was stated exactly… we seen examples of that with searchers who stated something from an email, only to later see the email sent and not affirming what was told in the first place.
        But I’ll give credit where it is due… Cynthia has been pretty accurate when the final information has been shown. {that can be shown}
        It’s our choice to use or not… but, for me, always with a grain of salt…

        • I saw the video with Cynthia and she took notes at the time exactly for that reason. She was also asked if that was all of it, and she said yes. I think she is being very careful with the information to the best of her ability.

          • Oz,
            I agree… some folks listen, while other can’t help but to interrupt. I see Cynthia as the prior.

        • Hi Oz10: I completely agree. Cynthia isn’t a reporter — she’s a very experienced searcher with a vested interest in getting it right, and who knows the importance of precision in Forrest’s word choices and phraseology. I therefore trust her as much as I do Forrest — which is to say, not completely. 😉 Even Forrest makes mistakes; after all he HAS said the treasure is buried, didn’t realize it, and then denied he had. It’s impossible to be perfect all the time for nearly a decade. Yet Forrest manages to be miraculously consistent nearly all the time.

          • Yes, Forrest has been incredibly consistent over the years. He had time to practice his answers before the book was written.

    • Blex – After reading this thread this morning and watching the live show with KPro and Cynthia, I have to agree with your last para.

      IMO, there’s not much more to say at the moment that hasn’t already been hashed over “six ways from Sunday.” Wait, let me take that back. There’s always lots to say, we’re searchers, that’s what we do! LOL! But it seams we end up with more questions then answers.

      And even though, as you said Blex; “I think the information above is no more than we already had”, it’s always a good read on how people “think.” We all have the same clues, it’s the process behind the solve that I find interesting. Even if I don’t agree with a solve, I can still agree with the process.

      So I think it’s time to clear the head for just a bit and go back to the basics (we all know what that refers to)….and oh yeah…..maybe wait for the “the Big Surprises.” I love surprises!

      • Geysergirl – Seeker made that comment above, rather than me, however I agree with both of you on that point as well!

        • OOPS! Sorry Seeker…I just wanted to give poor Blex some credit cause Lord knows he needs it! 😉

          Thanks for correcting me Blex…..

        • Ha! blex,
          If you agree with me, you can take the credit from Geysergirl… but if it was me… I’d make her buy a ya a beer.

          • LOL! You’re both on! ( any excuse for a cold brew) If you’re ever in Montana, we could make that happen!

  10. TT ~ *What animal is the animal of CANADA YOU ASK? Forrest is busted…*
    This isn’t a ground breaking idea / theory or even confirmation. That thought has been around for a while and chatted up by more than a few. How do I know this? Forget that question…
    the question is; what do you do with it, should it have meaning to a clue?

  11. Where did the expression Level the playing field come from anyway. There sure seems to be a lot of mountains in the middle with no field to play.

  12. Not all beavers are brown, Tom. But ya might have to head to Canada to learn as to why the White House is white. Aka….doodles.

    IMO .

  13. Nobody is commenting about the ‘isolated’ part of the interview (thanks for that Cynthia). The treasure location is isolated.. depending on how you define isolated; because Forrest wanted to make sure he wasn’t misunderstood.

    Can the treasure location be spotted from the nearest hiking trail or path or road? Forrest’s clarification that ‘isolation’ requires definition makes me think yes.

    • I concur, Muset. Especially when he stopped and had to ask what isolated meant to be sure he was describing the area correctly. This is how I understood what was said.

    • Muset – that was something that made me think at first, but then I wondered what was the difference between isolated and remote.

      WikiDiff stated it as follows: Isolated is placed or standing apart or alone; while remote is at a distance; disconnected.

      The way I see it is something can be isolated without being remote, but it can’t be remote without being isolated. So either way, there could be something nearby or not. So once again, what does that really tell us?

      • Isolated is a good word because it doesn’t reveal much. For instance, an island in a lake or even in a river is “isolated,” but in many cases would not be considered “remote.” “Isolated” works well with what we already knew: that the treasure’s location is not some place that sees high traffic and is easily stumbled upon.

        For those that haven’t seen the video, here’s my transcript of the portion where that word first pops up:

        Cynthia: “Are there any signs of civilization or manmade objects in the area where the chest is hidden?”
        FF: “Well, I don’t know what you mean by “in the area.” I mean the area could be a hundred miles. The place where that treasure chest is hidden is in an isolated area.”
        Cynthia: “Okay. Can the sun shine on the treasure …”
        FF: “Wait, let me think about that. ‘In an isolated area.’ (Several second pause.) What does ‘isolated’ mean?”
        Cynthia: “Is that your answer?”
        FF: “Okay, that’s good.”

        It’s like Forrest pondered the ramifications of his particular word choice, and decided it worked. Then, a few questions later, that word comes up again — but in a question this time, interestingly enough:

        Cynthia: “Is the chest hidden in a very isolated location?”
        FF: “Well, I just answered that.”
        Cynthia: “Exactly, yes. You want to, um, expound…”
        FF: “The treasure is hidden where a person would not normally go. I guess you could call that an isolated location, yeah.”

        • Agreed Zap. And I also agree with what Distant Logic is inferring below. That basically Forrest hesitates before answering at times because A, he doesn’t want to give too much away and B, he doesn’t want to mislead us from the truth. Both of which basically leaves us with a big fat “nothing!” Maybe not ALL the time, but certainly a lot of the time. Ahhhh…..will we ever learn! I know I won’t. Even after my comment above….I STILL LISTEN to every word he says! I’m doomed….. 😉

        • Zap,
          Think about it; …would not normally go…

          FF: “The treasure is hidden where a person would not normally go. I guess you could call that an isolated location, yeah.”

          Seeker {me} ~ LOL… y’all should have seen this coming… the question now is… can a searcher get within 12′ of the 10″ hidey spot without precisely following the clues? Another-words, can ‘anyone’ get that close by simple walking by that 10″ sq spot?
          I have to wonder, if ‘anyone’ *can* get that close without knowing about the poem.

          I’ll toss some familiar parts of other ATFs for thought; [paraphrasing, for thought only]
          Leave your search partner.
          No one will stumble upon it.
          If you can find the blaze by way of WWsH…
          the distance from the blaze to the chest will be obvious. {there is actually two parts of ATFs there}
          Becky’s Q&A.

          Y’all are looking for the chest, but it seems the blaze is the goose that lays the golden egg. Isolated; “The treasure is hidden where a person would not normally go. I guess you could call that an isolated location, yeah.”

          The blaze should give ‘reason’ to go… The question is; how do we reason out what the blaze does?… and I’m right back to Becky’s unanswered Q&A again.

          Just a thought provoking comment….

          • Hi Seeker:

            “the question now is… can a searcher get within 12′ of the 10″ hidey spot without precisely following the clues? Another-words, can ‘anyone’ get that close by simple walking by that 10″ sq spot?”

            Why not? There are no special privileges conferred on searchers relative to the general public — if a searcher can get there, any Jane Doe can (as long as she isn’t 3 years old and has no one to assist her, lol.)

            Wasn’t there a rumor once that Forrest suggested the location might be stumbled upon by a fisherman? I’ve seen zero evidence this rumor is true, btw, but it does lead one to speculate what spot(s) on earth would someone NEVER EVER conceivably go for any reason? I can’t think of one — except for spots that are impossibly inaccessible or absurdly dangerous. We know the treasure chest location is neither.

            Obviously Forrest “stumbled upon” the place at some point, without the benefit of a poem leading him there. If *he* ended up there by hook or by crook, seems to me there’s not reason someone else couldn’t do the same — even without the poem as a roadmap.

          • Seeker: guilty as charged on “technical.” But what in the world do you mean by “special privilege”? I don’t see how that can have any bearing on the Chase.

          • Seeker, Zap – Your comments made me think about something Fenn said many moons ago. ” There isn’t a human trail in very close proximity to where I hid the treasure” f ( I typed in “close proximity” in Tarry Scant to verify)

            So to me, his comment “The treasure is hidden where a person would not normally go” simply means “off trail.” MOST people out on a hike are not likely to venture off a trail/path of any kind. MOST People like a comfort zone and setting off into unfamiliar territory in anyway is not something they are comfortable with. Plus people tend to stick with what they know, the familiar scenery if you will. But as we know, Forrest is not “most people.”

            So theoretically, I guess anyone can get that close by simply walking by that 10″ sq spot. But I think it is highly unlikely.

            All IMO of course.

          • Those are your words Zap, not mine.
            The idea of *normally would not go*… May imply the blaze would cause a searcher to go, while most would not.
            Fenn didn’t measure the distance from the blaze to the chest, right?
            But if we can find the blaze the distance would be obvious, right?
            What makes a searcher go where normally someone may not…. It may fall down to how the blaze is utilized.
            Of course if others only believe the blaze is a marker..
            A stone on top of the chest, the idea won’t work or affect their thinking.

          • Hi Seeker: “Those are your words Zap, not mine.” Right you are — strange that I didn’t recognize you were simply echoing them back at me, but I still didn’t get the point of your post.

            “The idea of *normally would not go*… May imply the blaze would cause a searcher to go, while most would not.”

            Possibly, though I wouldn’t limit it to the blaze. The progression of clues may be sufficient to draw attention to a location that a person wouldn’t ordinarily go (even though Fenn obviously did at some point prior to hiding the treasure and writing the poem).

            “Fenn didn’t measure the distance from the blaze to the chest, right?”

            Correct, he didn’t.

            “But if we can find the blaze the distance would be obvious, right?”

            Yes, it’s obvious. (And in my opinion, the searcher will know the answer to that question before they ever leave home.)

            “What makes a searcher go where normally someone may not….”

            That is a question that each searcher should pose of their own solution as a test.

            “It may fall down to how the blaze is utilized.
            Of course if others only believe the blaze is a marker..”

            The blaze is clearly a marker in at least one sense: it’s a required indicator/clue for figuring out where the treasure is hidden.

            “A stone on top of the chest, the idea won’t work or affect their thinking.”

            I’m sure I don’t need to convince you that a stone on top of the chest can’t be the blaze. Any such tiny marker is easily removed/destroyed.

          • Geysergirl,

            Sure, it could relate… . IF we want to keep it simple.
            But how do both comments work with the poem if they basically mean the same thing?
            We still would need to process why someone wouldn’t “normally” go where the chest is at… even off trail… when WE think about the “Poem.”
            Most hikers don’t have that in mind, right?

            Normally Not Go; sounds more like a deterrent or as a rule, not to go, for some reason.
            I guess a better way of putting it… why would folks avoid the place?
            Or
            What would cause a “searcher” to leave the trail at this point?

            Does this involve NPFTM? Or as Zap implied, does it involve all the clues, generally?

            Example; Many will walk around a cemetery rather than walk through one… be it out of respect, fear of the walking dead, voodoo superstition, or a sigh that says; for residence only. That might be a poor example but you get my gist…

            The simple answer could be as you say; it basically means; not in very close proximity of a human trail. But there’s nothing simple about this challenge.

            “Normally” needs to be reason out, imo. And, which definition of ‘Isolated’ might fenn be implying. LOL, I mean he took time to contemplate the word meaning / definition. That alone is curious.

          • Where a person would not normally go may just be, not the easiest route. Even animals pretty much stick to the easiest route. And maybe the treasures location is in the sun for a good part of the day because its always there the best time of day. Although if one is an optimist and a forward thinker, every next moment of every day is the best time. Skiers know which slopes get the most sun. Just mulling over some thoughts. g

          • Seeker – “I guess a better way of putting it… why would folks avoid the place?”

            I’m not so sure folks would be avoiding it (meaning a non-searcher) as much as they would just have no specific “reason” to go there. There’s nothing special there or there is no reason to go down into that depression or up the side of a hill.

            “What would cause a “searcher” to leave the trail at this point?”

            Where for a searcher, if the clues lead him to that same area and there is something that he thinks may be a “blaze” he has all the reason in the world to go investigate.

            In one of my own solves, there is a place I intend to investigate that the clues in the poem have lead me to. It is not off of any trail and I will need to blaze my own. It’s a very specific spot that more then likely, no one would have any reason to go to. It’s probably NOT correct, but I will none the less investigate.

            So the above for me is enough to satisfy what ff meant about – not a place someone would “normally” go. But to your point, I do like to keep things simple to a certain degree even though as you say, this Chase is anything but! You and Zap and a few others have some very analytical minds and I love reading your thoughts here on the HoD. Perhaps that is what it will take to “solve” this Chase.

          • “The treasure is hidden where a person would not normally go. I guess you could call that an isolated location, yeah.”

            “Isolated” as it relates to where one “would not normally go” makes me think of off trail, off the beaten path but also possibly out of bounds, cordoned off, or roped off. Something that would normally be seen as a deterrent. I’m picturing a field with a barbed wire fence and a “No Trespassing” sign. Should the blaze give reason to go? Assuming the blaze is in close proximity to treasure, identification of the blaze might then compel us to go under the fence and past the sign to reach it and the treasure.

    • I agree, and after contemplating the definition of isolation I am doubtful that a paved road leads to an isolated place. His redirection / avoidance of a direct answer when asked about the need for a 4WD vehicle was curious. Back to the drawing board!!

      • “I agree, and after contemplating the definition of isolation I am doubtful that a paved road leads to an isolated place.”

        You know what Sally, if it were anyone but Forrest, I would totally agree with you on that statement. But think about it. The way he sees things and defines words, I could be 50 ft from my house in a thicket in the woods and still be considered “isolated” – standing apart, alone from the house. Just another way to look at it from perhaps Forrest’s eyes. IMO

        But either way, time to rethink some things for sure! 🙂

      • Sally Colorado – Made into an island…kinda like my hidey spot at Baker’S Hole, where I went BOTG/BITW with my fly fishing librarian friend on that Sunday of Memorial Day Weekend of 2019, a few weeks after Forrest used that word in his interview with Cynthia:

        isolated (adj.)
        “standing detached from others of its kind,” 1740, a rendering into English of French isolé “isolated” (17c.), from Italian isolato, from Latin insulatus “made into an island,” from insula “island” (see isle (n.)). English at first used the French word (isole, also isole’d, c. 1750), then after isolate (v.) became an English word, isolated became its past participle.

        Thinking of Captain Kidd again…

        • Lisa – I still ponder that bit about Captain Kidd in TTOTC. It just seems so odd and out of place. I just shrugged it off as a rabbit hole because I never could come up with anything smart! LOL! But maybe you have!

          • Geysergirl – Rabbit Hole…Fran Warren…giggles! But the soft dirt I dug my hands deep into was made by a mole, I think. And that rectangular old blaze on that pine above signifies ‘continue straight’ in old trails speak. That works for all of Forrest’s answers in Cynthia’s May of 2019 interview. IMO.

            Maybe the 2020 Surprise is that Forrest and Shiloh will finally accept my open invitation to join my partner and I to travel out to my hidey spot in a canoe??

            More giggles.

        • Lisa,

          I like this meaning myself…
          verb
          past tense: isolated; past participle: isolated
          /ˈīsəˌlāt/
          cause (a person or place) to be or remain alone or apart from others.

          Is there something that causes the chest to be alone /isolated-?-while all the clues are contiguous… and folks wouldn’t normally go to. Maybe not even know it’s there?
          Is that the job for the blaze?

          • Dal – Just saw your comment reply to Lori on your great “Side Tracked” story thread, about ‘Cimarron’ and ‘marron’ as ‘Brown’:

            The other “maroon” comes from the Spanish word “cimarron,” meaning wild or untamed. “Maroons” were originally runaway slaves in the West Indies who, having escaped their bondage, fled into the forests and mountains of the islands to live.

          • Dal – More on ‘marooned’ and ‘isolated’ and a potential ‘home of Brown’ location:

            Maroon. Maroon ( /məˈruːn/ mə-ROON,) is a dark reddish purple or dark brownish red color that takes its name from the French word marron, or chestnut. The Oxford English Dictionary describes it as “a brownish crimson or claret color.”

          • Lisa – How lucky is jack to be marooned with such a beautiful partner – Looks like the bottle still has the cork and is mostly full- What goes there.

          • Lisa Great to see your post. Kind of reminds me of the movie Outlaw Woman (1952) lol No really you sure do post some great stuff.

        • Hello Cynthia, Geysergirl & Lisa Cesari.

          Cynthia-thanks for the excellent interview with Forrest!

          Forrest, thanks for a bit of new material to ruminate on.

          IMO “isolated” may help define all of our solutions, and refine the correct solve.

          Like the rest of the gang I’m trying to determine which of these applies:

          -Far from others or difficult to get to; remote.
          OR
          -Placed or standing apart or alone; in isolation.

          FOR FUN…
          Isolated
          Sol=sun
          Ice-sol(sun)-late

          A place where the sun comes late and ice remains. Worth the cold.

    • I guess I’ll be the dissenter here. I don’t think the location of the TC would be able to be spotted from a trail, road, etc. Even if it is only 200 feet from a trail, depending on the landscape and thickness of the forested area, that would be tough to see. And if it’s 500 feet, that seems nearly impossible to see that far through a bunch of trees, bushes, etc. Also, I’m sure f would not want to be seen while hiding the TC and if the location is visible from a trail or road then that would mean he would’ve risked being seen when hiding it.

      IMO his request for the meaning of the word “isolated” was nothing more than a desire to give an accurate answer to the question. I’m sure we all have a general idea of what “isolated” means, as does f, but saying something is isolated based on the general understanding of the word may not be completely accurate after looking up the dictionary definition of the word (note his explanation of the word “buried”). I don’t have the quote, but if I remember correctly, he sort of talks this out to himself when he says something like, “it’s in a place that people would not normally go, so yeah it is isolated”.

      I genuinely believe he does not like to mislead people, for various reasons, which is why he chooses his words carefully. Making vague statements that can be inferred different ways, which he often does, is not the same as misleading. It is apparent to me that that’s fun for him; answering questions honestly while also leaving the statement up for interpretation. He’s a sly ol’ dog ain’t he?

      To sum up my main point, asking for the meaning of the word “isolated” was proof of his desire to give an accurate answer to the question, nothing more. IMO

    • It is helping with the visualization of the spot. It is isolated but there is a human trail in ‘somewhat’ close proximity. The spot gets sunshine a good part of the day. Not a dangerous place. The chest is not under water, not on top of a mountain, not directly under the sun, not necessarily buried but not on plain view (at least from above). Not associated with a man made structure. Nobody is going to stumble on it, but not likely that a searcher be within 12 feet and not find it. Must be inside a hollow out stump on the northeast side of a hill/ cliff…

  14. Maybe the searchers should go to “Tarry Scant” and search the word BLAZE and read the results. They cover some of the same thoughts and ideas covered here with a little different twist.

    Examples;
    direction the blaze faces….
    distance of blaze to the chest….
    can the blaze be removed……
    size of the blaze….
    also in the trees / in the sun comment….
    and lastly a statement he made to the effect that if you find the treasure chest you would not have to disturb anything. like remove a flagstone cover???

  15. Some awesome comments…. getting warmer with y’alls thought processors.

    Free your mind… like this for example…
    I rarely share any solves, but as far as I went down the rabbit holes on this one, I’m yet to find a revealing tangent.

    Seeing as FF loves numbers, especially the events of 24th of August, 1968… and how everything revolves around the numbers, I came up with an SOS….

    505-248-1968

    On Time Airport Parking
    https://ontimeairportparking.com

    Anagram 1st & last letters of the 4 words= Top Agent…. coincidence? lol

    • Chrisazy, thats pretty dang good , did you see the gal that was on cowlasers and kpro marathon, she was anagraming somthing, and she got a Email from Forrest while she was on, or just after, and she said, he said “her talent will be in demand”. i thought that was cool of her to share, sorry i forget her name young gal with dark ponytails…

      • Gijoe- Page 8 TTOTC where Forrest is signing books. The author signing books at the turquoise mine== If you use the letters in that sentence= Thought begins soon as mother ask a question. Also note no page no. on that page. -coincidence?

        • Woody,ill have to look that up, as soon as my copy arrives on feb 8, thanks for the heads up.

    • Thanks for sharing the link, Dal and thanks to Cynthia for posting it!

      Forrest had already said that he was driving a sedan when he hid the treasure:
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-hiding-the-treasure/

      So I would guess Forrest’s hesitation was whether or not someone could actually drive ALL the way to the hidey spot in a 4WD vehicle. It reminded me of some of the modified Jeeps that people can actually drive up Lake Como “Road” in Colorado. Here’s one of the many entertaining videos:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjjssLnM5Po

      Those of us with sedans would just park at the bottom and hike up of course!

      • Blex, I believe Forrest’s 4WD Jeep qualifies as a “sedan”; based on my interpretation of the definition. Your mileage may vary. And no, that Jeep is definitely not an off-road vehicle! However, it does have relatively high clearance and will go many places that, for example, a Honda Civic can’t. And my bet is, Forrest is an excellent driver and routinely went places an average person might hesitate to go. As we say in my family…”it’s a tool, not a jewel”.

        • Sally Colorado – I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with you there on the interpretation of “sedan”:
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan_(automobile)

          I can’t seeing Forrest giving bits of advice like “don’t go where an 80-year-old man couldn’t go” if he drove a 4WD high-clearance vehicle to an upper trailhead where most 2WD cars could not. Remember he created the Chase as something any average person could have a chance at, and limiting access to a search area that can only be accessed by a 4WD vehicle just doesn’t sit well with me. I can only say that’s just my opinion, and I could be totally wrong.

          • for the rocky mountains, envisioning only 2wd vehicles is a fairly risky viewpoint, for people who live in the mountains think it is “average” for people to drive nothing but 4WD.

            Basically trying to convey the point that in the rockies, 4WD is average.

            Lets put it this way, when ff scrapped the mirror off his “sedan”, do you think he was thinking he was ‘above’ average for driving that type of vehicle? if you get my drift…

            There are lots of places here in the Rockies that I have driven in 2WD vehicles (other people’s cars), but then would not drive the same road without a 4WD/allwheel depending on the weather.. and that includes I-70.

  16. The questions in Cynthias video seem odd. They don’t seem like questions a reporter or writer would ask to write an Austrailian travel story. More like a single searcher trying to confirm their solve. g

    • and if you watch the production from the “travel story”, you will find out that you are exactly correct, I am still trying to think of how he got caught up in watching someone walk into a stream, if he was that “experienced” of a searcher…

  17. In Lieu of the Discussion on the Location:

    The “image” I posted just became that much more appealing!!!!

    -Ann

  18. Holy Cowabunga Dude!
    I take a few days off from the chase and come back to an earth shattering cataclysmic Explosion!

    Not that this is bad in any way, it is certainly good, but who woulda thought that this video was being sequestered as the Treasure is?!

    So many clues revealed, IMO.
    Isolated=Off Trail, but think we all figured that out but now we have confirmation from Forrest himself. That’s Fantastic!

    Isolated definition= far away from other places, buildings, or PEOPLE;
    remote. Out of the way. Outlying. Off the beaten track. Secluded. Lonely.
    In the back of beyond. In the hinterlands. Off the map. In the middle of nowhere.

    Are these the meanings Forrest was talking about with regards to being Isolated?

    “The Treasure is hidden where a person would not normally go”

    Could this be why the Treasure is not associated with any structure?

    And once again, do any of the clues refer to a man made structure before arriving to the Treasure location?
    Let’s not forget that a ROAD is a man made structure.

    I believe the structure comment is ambiguous, IMO.

    If the Treasure location is Isolated from everything else then is it safe to say that possibly, for instance, The Home of Brown is affiliated with a structure pertaining to a Person, Place or Thing? A Simple Common Noun?

    Is a four wheel drive needed or not?
    Forrest did not answer the question, but did mention driving outta his garage.
    We all remember what happened when Forrest left his garage and took out his passenger mirror with a tree branch. With that said, is it safe to say that Forrest did in deed rent a smaller vehicle knowing that if he took his larger 4 wheel drive into the wilderness he might have come back home with a dire need to visit an auto body technician? 🙂

    So, does that mean that the place to park our car is reachable year round?
    But then have to walk through an area that may be dangerous if covered in snow? But if was clear might just be a deliciously scenic way to spend 20 to 30 minutes upon a stroll?

    So many things to ponder!
    I’m so excited!
    Thanks Forrest, Cynthia and Dal!

    🙂
    Pauley T

    • Pauley: “So many clues revealed, IMO.
      Isolated=Off Trail, but think we all figured that out but now we have confirmation from Forrest himself. That’s Fantastic!”

      well if you were going to leave your “bones” lying around… would you leave them on a trail? or even within a stones throw?

      not sure why the thing was even a question that needed answered?

      and if a person has to make two trips from their “car” of any type, and takes somewhere in the order of “in an afternoon”, would one think that the person just liked to walk? rather than taking the road right to the the place they were going?

      it really does not matter about the 4WD or 2WD, when you know it is rugged enough that one has to get out and hike for (IMO) a better part of an afternoon.

      so not sure the fuss for that one either, considering most everyone living on or near a dirt road in the Rockies owns a 4WD anyway….

      one may be able to reach the spot in a 2WD, but when one gets there, 90% of the vehicles that are parked there (if any) will be 4WD. the rest made up of people not from the area…. most likely not from the rockies.

      • Writis

        Am I in the twilight zone?

        I think you should watch the video again, specifically minute mark 1:34

        I believe when Forrest confirms or denies something it then becomes a verified statement that takes doubt away when trying to achieve a goal.

        Pauley T

  19. Pauley – the definition of “isolated” that you provided is the one that I currently believe is correct. A place that people don’t NORMALLY go. Does this tell us that the approach is likely a dirt road, although not necessarily a 4WD road, leading to the place where we park our car and start the search? This would explain the many warnings about mud, etc. Perhaps Forrest is telling us we park in a small copse of trees, and he warns us to be careful about backing out as it could be a bit tricky. Perhaps that copse of trees forms a natural “garage” of sorts. Thanks for your post.

    • Sally – I always liked the idea of a dirt road and “isolated” for the obvious reasons, but the funny part is so far none of my solves have lead me down a dirt road……which may mean none of them are correct! LOL! I love this challenge!

    • Sally

      Your dirt road theory may be right but I believe Forrest was implying that he didn’t need a 4 wheel drive to get outta his garage because, once again, I believe, Forrest is stating that the Treasure Hunt firstly begins with us leaving our homes and going to the first clue which is a place easily accessible by any automobile. What then happens with the second clue, third clue, fourth clue and so on and so on is the big mystery, (as well as where the first clue is 🙂 )

      Where do we stop our car and get out to walk?
      Is it the home of Brown?
      Is it the blaze?
      Are we to drive our automobiles to the first clue or which one of the clues all the way to the ninth clue?

      I believe, regardless where we have to stop our cars and get out to walk, that the entire journey up to that point is easily accessible by any automobile provided the weather conditions are not extreme and the winter season has ended and summer is upon the horizon.

      I believe that is why an out of work redneck from Texas driving a Jalopy filled with his wife and ten kids and accoutrements has just as good a chance finding the FF Treasure as everyone else, they can putt putt all the way there just like Forrest’s family did every summer goin up to Yellowstone.

      Slow and Steady wins the Race!

      Gee Whiz, I Love this Chase Thang! 🙂

      Pauley T

  20. Perhaps isolated means it is a “private” place.
    Gonna have to go in “undercover.”
    Or at least sneak in from the back.

    • Two “isolated” synonyms that I like are:
      clandestine – characterized by or conducted in secrecy/ privacy
      covert – shelter or hiding place, a cover or concealing device, veiled or secret

      You may be right wwwamericana… a private, covered, secret place (with no back door)

  21. Are there no poetry buffs following any of this? I invite all to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. And does anyone know if FF was a fan of Walden Pond by Henry David Thoreau?

    -Ann

    • PS-

      Here is a good place to read The Road Not Taken:

      https://www.poetryfoundation.org/articles/89511/robert-frost-the-road-not-taken

      And I suggest viewing the Poem Guide located to the right, at the top of the poem. While the poem guide was originally published May 27th, 2016, well after the Chase began, you may find it insightful not only to The Road Not Taken, but perhaps into the poetical antics of FF as well. There is an uncanny resemblance between the two. And all is IMO of course.

      -Ann

        • Gijoe,

          Thanks! I thought there might be greater interest in that but I guess not.It is one of the very things I thought of when I read the word “wood” in FF’s poem. It’s not common practice to leave off the s. And Frost’s poem is a classic. Also, while I am thinking of it, ironic that FF’s poem resembles that of a guy named Frost and FF tells us “Your effort will be worth the cold.” I am not saying Robert Frost is the “cold” FF is referring, just interesting. I could tie the two poems together quite extensively but I do not want to add to the mounds and mounds of conjectural chaos! All IMO of course.

          -Ann

        • Dal,

          Thanks for the link. I did not intend to rehash discussion on wood vs. woods. I figured there had been discussion on pretty much every word in the poem as long as many of you have been at this! I liked your dialect diagnosis. I understand it may be common for some to refer to a wooded area as wood instead of woods. But, that is a very limited demographic. So, I posit that to most people the use of wood instead of woods strikes them as odd. As noted above, I instantly thought of Frost’s poem where it is perhaps more famously used. I imagine FF’s use and Frost’s use are similar in meaning.

          I brought the Frost poem up because I am more familiar with that poem than FF’s and yet as I read over FF’s poem I am constantly reminded of Frost’s. The resemblance is uncanny and both are quite elusive in meaning. If you haven’t already, I encourage you to read over the Poem Guide for Frost’s poem that I noted above. It will give you a better idea of why I brought this all up. It would not surprise me if FF took inspiration from Frost, or even used some of the same styling for similar reasons. All IMO of course.

          -Ann

    • i’m kinda new to all this and tryin to catch up on everything. what does poetry have to do with anything. especially on a web site about some guy given away treasure.

      • Billy,

        The short answer is that Forrest Fenn hid a treasure and wrote a poem that will lead someone to it. So poetry sort of has a lot to do with it. IMO.

        -Ann

      • Poetry has everything to do with “it.”
        Just IMHO, of course.
        Remember, it’s in the poem.

        • yeah i read the poem and it don’t look to hard. but i prolably won’t be to good if it has to do with figuring out rimes. i’ve heard its been 9 years or so since it was hid. seems like a long time to me and nobody’s found it yet. i’ll stick around and check things out. thank y’all.

  22. LATELY, searchers, a lot of my posts are being deleted for some reason, I regret that they are being removed, but I have decided to step back from posting, That may be a relief to some who have the responsibility to edit, that is ok, but please allow this to post, cause like many others here on the blog, freedom of expression is a privilege not a right.

    Anyway, I was about to send a solve called “Winter Thoughts II an Abridged Scrapbook Solution”, it was intended to confirm what we are all trying to glean from the recent revelations of thought from the new videos, comments, Q and A’s that we have heard on the youtube channels and various media sources like this one, HODal.

    I do not know why the edits were done, but I am confused because there was not IMO a good reason for facing the guillotine.
    Info from the Forrest recently, along with the SC Book post since Chaos started at SC 209 is IMO a change of tempo in the search, it is quicker, more imminent even, for some a change of direction or simply the old confirmation bias kicking in.

    I for one have felt for some time that ff had posted sc books shortly after each solve that was either confirming or at odds with what could possibly Embroidery one solution or comment into a winning hand.

    Call me paranoid, or delusional, just remember this: Someone is close to locating the TC.
    AS FORREST SAID it is only a matter of time… TT

    • It IS only a matter of time, whether that be today, or a thousand years from now! IMO 😉

      • Ha!
        Or IT is a matter related to TIME.
        LOL… we can chew that comment up into a million pieces..
        Sorry, Loco got me going on his comment a few days back and I’m still chuckling about it, I mean that, I mean Loco’s comment…

    • TT if you look back in all the years, someone has always said, “someone is close”, including ff, who reasoned with his “gut” that someone was close… I think it was last year before the season even began…

      so even ff can be wrong. but as Geysergirl alluded to correctly… a matter of time is well… relative.. and if one had seen the slight glint in ff’s eye when he said it. you know he was right 🙂

  23. Since this thread seems to be the hot spot, and this post is also relevant here, I’ll repost for discussion.

    Consider this Q & A:

    From MW
    Question posted 6/25/2014:
    Hi,
    Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
    Thanks ~Ron
    Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
    The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia….

    Of course the clues did not exist when he was a kid because he created them within the poem as an adult. But note how f says “MOST of the places…” I draw two possible conclusions from this. Either at least one of the places to which a clue refers is a man-made structure that didn’t exist when he was a kid, or the place physically existed but it was not an officially established or named place at the time of his childhood.

    Based on this quote, it does seem possible that at least one place to which a clue refers is a man-man structure, though I do not necessarily believe that. To clarify the other possibility, perhaps one clue refers to, just for example, ABC National Park. Everything within ABC National Park was there already, but the government or whomever had not yet drawn a border around the area and named it ABC National Park. One could say that place did not exist when they were a kid and be truthful, despite everything in the park always having been there.

    Thoughts?

    • DL,

      I would lean to the latter of the two possibilities you pose. Clearly the clues refer to places, whether named or geographical is still up for debate. The importance I note is that they don’t refer to things or ideas, but rather to places. I would stray away from the man made structure explanation because man made structures are more likely to disappear over time than natural geographical ones. And, in the mountains not much is made by man that is built to stad the test of time for say 1,000 years. So, all this being IMO of course, it seems most likely that the place name did not exist when he was a kid. (Which for any Brown trout theory supporters, would rule out that idea unless the body of water had brown trout introduced to it at a definite time, even the proper name Brown varieties.) BTW I do not support the Brown trout theory.

      -Ann

      • I’m leaning toward the latter of those two possibilities as well. It isn’t likely that any clue refers to a man-made structure IMO, but the quote leaves the possibility up for debate. I’m definitely not looking for anything man-made when trying to solve the clues as it doesn’t seem, well, logical.

    • @Distant Logic. That’s a great question. It’s been one of my most interested quotes . When other quotes are used to logically measure the substance of this one; measured with or for against a common logical,reasoning. Those other quotes themselves can also be a misinterpretation of the contextual intent and or they can be improperly used as a control to measure this said quote by.

      The operative words in this quote are “since” and “most”. The other quote of ” not associated” can construe the distant logic of association in its reasoning , it seems.

      His quoted answer is in riddle form.

      IMO .

      • Not sure that I’m on board with the quote being in riddle form, it seems pretty straightforward to me. “Most” is the most interesting part of the quote for sure. “Refer to” also seems pretty straightforward. The chest or location of it being “not associated with a man made structure” is also pretty clear to me; it’s not in a location that is man-made such as an old outhouse or other such place/thing.

        The question for me becomes, what place did not have a name when he was a kid? Is it a trail that had not been there or at least been named 70 years ago? A park? A hot spring? I’m leaning toward a trail but then I wonder, can a trail be considered a place?

        • DL,

          I am in agreement with the name not having existed as a child. I would tend to think it’s a place on the map that he provided. I still haven’t gotten a clear response on whether he chose that map specifically or whether any map of the area will suffice. Seems to me that (again using another such hunt as an example) like the Goonies who had both a “poem” and a map, I am inclined to believe FF used the map he used for a specific reason. IMO.

          -Ann

        • Hey-O, DL –

          Just a couple places that have been considered:

          The Hebgen Lake Earthquake (in Montana near West Yellowstone) occurred in Aug 1959, and created Quake Lake.

          Flaming Gorge Reservoir (on the Green River in SW Wyo) didn’t exist until 1959-1964 (the dates of the dam construction). Though the name Flaming Gorge existed at least since the time of Powell’s descent of the Green starting in 1869.

          It’s also barely possible to interpret the quote to mean there’s a place a clue refers to that NO LONGER existed when ff was a kid. I don’t think it’s likely, but it’s at least possible.

          JAKe

        • @Distant Logic.

          Let’s look at this in light of what I said:
          FF Quote:

          “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.”f

          I’ll post an FF quote as a ” control” focus:

          “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”f

          So, most of the places the clues refer to did exist when he was a kid- meaning-but not all, right? Most is meaning: not all. So, does this mean Fenn made a place? Is the place that did not exist meaning: in name ,a word ,manufactured construct, a picture ,a drawing, earth changes caused a new formation , such as an earthquake ,volcanic molten lava hardened into a form? Is the place that non-existed previously a now clue;?say, being as the Blaze that is carved or drawn by Fenn to qualify as to a place now existing because it wasn’t there before? How can there be anything on earth be considered as being a new thing; when all the fabric of parts and places for things already exist? Simply being FF poem relative here, likely, but not limited to: by elemental manipulation, alchemy , and changing the form. Or simply , a name change of what it’s called- what is in a name?

          What is he referring to? A straight line only exists by the limited viewing of time within the construct of linearity. The big picture view: If I had a ball of string ,unraveling it as I walked, walking straight until I came back to my starting point. Looking at this string’s path on earth from the moon ; would the string path be straight at all ?

          What I am referring to here is ; there is nothing straightforward about this quote. There’s that important possibility within it ,for the most part, that is likely is being referred to here and relative to.

          How is it then, that this is all contiguous?

          IMO .

          • Alsetenash: “most” can also mean “all” when used in a strict logic or mathematical sense, as opposed to colloquially.

          • Zap, I understand what you’re saying-“most, if not all”, kind of thing. Can the word “Most” ,technically, be used as the meaning defined as “all”?

            How then is all of Ten and most of the Ten different in meaning? One is absolute , in the other there’s a missing variable in order to be absolute. Most is what, if not all? It’s at least one. No?

            IMO .

          • There’s a quote from Fenn that I remember reading but for the life of me I can’t find it. Does someone know where to find it? It was something like- if a searcher could think of one good clue for themselves….. it was something like that..

          • Hi again: mathematically/logically there is a progression from less-to-more when going from “some” to “most” to “all.” At the low end, “some” merely means at least one … but that still includes the possibility of all. For instance, suppose I have two children and they are both boys. It would be accurate to say that some of my children are boys: it is a true statement. It is also true that most of them are boys.

          • I found the quote quoted on Thor blog g but I can’t find original source , “Talk about the one good clue searchers could think of themselves, but haven’t. f”

            So, I can really verify it.

            IMO .

          • Zap, your ” most ” and “all” example with about the kids example.

            I got nothing . Man. I just don t know what to say , other than I’m flummoxed. Lol 🙂

          • Alset: it was in a private email from Forrest to Jason Dent, as a suggestion of a topic of discussion: “Talk about the one good clue that searchers can think of themselves but haven’t. f”

            It’s consistent with a couple other things Forrest has written:

            Decoded secret words from Forrest in Jenny’s armchair treasure hunting book:

            “If you are in the right spot, something you probably haven’t thought about, should be obvious to you.”

            And from MW Six Questions (2/4/2015), link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-yet-again-with-forrest-fenn-always-a-treasure/

            “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

          • Ah thanks Zap, much appreciated of your effort to find it. Man, you must have a large data file!

            IMO .

          • Zap. In the previous Odds&Ends I asked if anyone had all or some of FF’s books. To see if and what books had the Colophon Double Omega and which had the single Omega or non. I have a potential theory that I’m interested in cross check referencing , just as an interest but not much probable withstanding. Just want to investigate a thought. More so just the books he would have mentioned throughout this chase, not all his books. It’s not that important though. I could just wait until the end of the chase when I get all them books 🙂

          • Hello zaphod. Thank you for the quotes. I wonder if anyone has thought of the one possibility related to the winning solve. It’s been nearly five years since this statement. Do you believe it has anything to do with “isolated”?

          • PDenver. When I watched him answer that question and said “isolated”. It triggered my memory of him saying this:

            “When I hid my treasure chest, walking back to my car, I had this strange sensation. I asked myself out loud, I said, “Forrest did you really do that?” And I started laughing at myself out loud. There was NOBODY AROUND (caps emphasis added by me) but in the back of my mind I told myself if I’m sorry later, I can go back and get it.”

            IMO .

          • Hello Alsetenash. It is a good quote. “Did you really do that” makes it sound a bit devilish rather than just the mere thought of hiding the treasure chest. “Why didn’t I think of that” is another.

          • I dunno if it’s worth pointing out. But to the if a 4X4 is needed question- he always has said CAR. Walked twice from his car and this-to his car.

            IMO .

          • PDenver. Ya hey. Devilish sounding like he’s thinking like Frankenstein and created a monster ( TTOTC) lol.

          • As the gentleman rings his hands and chuckles a sinister chuckle. (Giggle.) I’ve read he’s considered it as such.

          • Ya, it’s like have a kid read the poem. Its word simple enough that a kid can read it and have their level of cognizance . An adults perspective, has their cognizance.

            When I was a kid, on Saturdays my dad would always watch bugs bunny and the looney tunes show with us. He’d laugh as much or more than us. Sometimes I didn’t understand why he was laughing at what we saw and that we didn’t laugh at the same- visa versa at times. Until I watched the same show as an adult, I then did see what I missed.

            Lol didn’t see the same humour of his as being a kid , nor did I laugh at the same stuff in them as would a kid now being as an adult .

            Why didn’t I think of that? In the end , we all will probably laugh through tears at what he means.

            IMO.

          • Hello Alsetenash. Which reminds me of his comment about being thirteen. Curiosity, changes, etc. are things I associate with this age.

      • Technically he did create the hidey spot. A spot only becomes a hidey spot when you hide something there. A closet is just a closet unless you are playing hide and seek and you hide in the closet. Only then does it become a hidey spot, despite not creating the closet itself.

    • Distant logic,

      I think you might be forgetting something… Correct me if I’m wrong.
      You might think all clues are places. In which case “most” would only have to be more than 1/2… Of the number (9). LOL that could be as many as 4 places not around when Fenn was a kid.

      The reason I bring that up is; wouldn’t that indicate the more likely hood the location was found much later than “when he was a kid”?
      Is that helpful… IDK.
      The other point I have is; what about directions and/or instructions as a clue reference?

      In some cases involving theories… There could be only 3 places.
      If that were possible… Does that help in some attempted for a searcher’s personal area as to what may not have been around and when?

      Example; Earthquake Lake wasn’t around when Fenn was a kid… Yet falls in an area of great interest because this was fenn’s old stomping grounds every summer… It didn’t exist in either on “name” or “place.”

      This also refers to a conversation on the hidey spot thread. How a place becomes a place different to its prior known place…creating a new place.

      • As many as 4, yes, or as few as 1. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you mean but I don’t think it necessarily means either way if it is a location he found as a kid or an adult. It isn’t necessary to have a childhood memory of a place to know it didn’t exist back then.

        I’m not yet sold on all 9 clues referring to places, though I’m not exactly sold on any theory (I constantly change my mind about things). It seems logical that some of the clues could be directional in some way. But lets say there are only 3 places to which the clues refer and the other 6 clues are directional. That example doesn’t change the idea that at least one clue might refer to a place that either did not exist in official name or has only more recently been created, possibly due to geological events, as you and others have pointed out.

        So does the question then become, “what is a place?” That’s a tough one depending on how one defines a “place”. If I throw a football into a corn field, does that make it a new place? I wouldn’t be able to describe that corn field as “the place into which I threw my football” if I hadn’t thrown my football into it, so would I have made a new place by doing so? Maybe I’m just a simpleton but I would say no I did not create a new place even though technically speaking I guess I would have.

        This all gets too complicated for me though. Back to simplicity please. I could use a beer, is it Friday yet?

      • Distant logic ~ *Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you mean but I don’t think it necessarily means either way if it is a location he found as a kid or an adult. It isn’t necessary to have a childhood memory of a place to know it didn’t exist back then.*

        LOL I had to read that three times… not because I didn’t understand… because it never dawned on me before, or maybe just didn’t impact me as it does now.
        ~ *it isn’t NECESSARY to have a childhood memory of a place to know it didn’t exist back then.*

        The basic idea to your comment is true… but I’m the type of person that needs to dissect things for plausible deniability. I need to ponder this more.. so thank for giving me something to think about.

        But one thing that comes to mind is; he would have had to learn a “clue’s reference” he used that wasn’t there, if he had no direct knowledge prior as a kid.
        The ‘when’ he learned this is of less interesting to me, than, ‘how’ he did.
        Is this why the location became “special” to him to start with?? Is this the important possibility? Is it directly related to WWsH.. something WE need to “learn” about the first clue? All of the above?

        Yep, thanks … thanks a lot.. lol. Now my head hurts.

        • Hello Seeker. I wonder if place(s) that didn’t exist when he was a kid could refer to place(s) where it held a different name before he was a kid, hence it didn’t exist, yet was there. I hope I explained it clearly. Would this be possible?

          • PD,
            I personally dislike a clue being referenced by a name.
            Look at it this way… Using a ‘road map’ do you need to know the names of anything to create a route?
            All you need is instructions of when to turn right, left, go straight… Etc.
            Example; turn right at the third road, go straight for 5 signal lights, turn left two streets later.
            But sure it could be.

          • Hello Seeker. Wouldn’t there be something more precise in order to begin the “road map” and then continue “right, left, straight, etc.” line of thinking?

          • PD,
            My simple example was more about instructions rather-than directions. While the words are similar, yet they are different as well.
            If you can figure names of place beforehand and relate them to a map… you really don’t need to follow them as they are presented… you can pick your own desire route and where you start, if you already know where you will end up. IMO… those are directional. [minus the idea of a one way in and out only scenario].
            Instructions, need to be followed especially if the outcome or later places is not known of beforehand. In this case, the instructions are more likely to be as one sees what is needed to be seen.
            The idea is to follow the instructions as fenn did, without a map, but from memory of what the location *looks* like. ~Marry the clues in the poem to a place on a map… Clues are contiguous…
            For me this means a joining of things, coupled together, next or together in sequence… My example of married, in this manner, is here;
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAVaGulqUOU

            The idea of *sees* with instructions vs. directions is more about a visual layout of location and seeing how everything falls into place, rather than actually traveling all of them.

            So to answer your question;
            ~Wouldn’t there be something more precise in order to begin the “road map” and then continue “right, left, straight, etc.” line of thinking?
            Right, we need to know where to begin in any understand of something and what to do “from there”.

            Instructions start with; {example} ‘Step #1.’Something you need to do”

            Directions as well need a starting point; {example} ‘you are here’ and you then ‘go’ there and there and there…

            The differences is how we proceed from that point.
            Finding names on a map can start us at *any named point* on said map… We really don’t need the first named place to actually start at, If later points can be found.

            But, we are told to do just that; find the blaze by starting with WWsH.

          • Hello Seeker. The one way in and out has crossed my mind several times. Did Mr. Fenn talk about how he himself followed the clues and felt there was only one way to get to where he hid the treasure chest (paraphrasing)? I believe this was stated over at Jenny’s site.

            I concur the clues are contiguous and the best things to have is the poem, TTOTC book, and a good map/GE. The good map must show something we need about the clues.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

        • Lol you’re welcome. With 2 small kids, another on the way, and a wife that selfishly doesn’t want me to leave my whole family to venture into the Rockies to probabaly fail to find treasure, I won’t be finding the TC anytime soon. So instead I’m here to inspire toss around ideas.

          f did say at one point that you need to learn where warm waters halt, so it is certainly possible that learning of the clue is needed to find it opposed to just searching a map for it.

          • My wife gives me static when it comes to the Chase. What you need is a good dose of Emotional Intelligence to handle the situation, IMO. Capisce?

          • DL,

            May I suggest looking into Watersheds? BTW, was FF’s car a Voyager? That would be ironic!

            -Ann (IMO)

          • IMO the clues will absolutely, positively,
            and beyond the shadow of all doubt,
            be contiguous. If you have them in the
            right order

    • Distant Logic: “but the government or whomever had not yet drawn a border around the area and named it ABC National Park”

      one could say this about just about any “Geography”, so yes, but I don’t think it will help… as everything has had a rich history of “naming”… and 90 years is a long time…. (well relatively for our life spans)

  24. Seeker. That’s a good plausible idea as any. It’s an interesting hing he says here.

    ” Refer to” and “associated” are closely related.

    IMO .

  25. Now the fly in the ointment from TT, what if it existed but did not have the name when he was a kid but a new nom de plume, for example it was a Rio Bravo (River) but had been re named Rio Grande (River) river is re dundant term but necessary for the place I think was most likely there but re named… TT

    • Gosh I love that Denver Museum hint.. How could the Denver or Rio Grande have any relation to this idea?

      TT TT TT

      • If it is too far to walk perhaps we could just hitch on to heavy loads to Water High… Thanks for that tip Bobby McGee.

        TT

      • TT,

        What hint are you referring to? And I agree it is likely the name that didn’t exist when FF was a kid.

        -Ann

        • Ann SC Book 235 and SC Book 211 Requiem for a Wreck, both mention “Me and Bobby McGee. What seems odd and illuminating is this “But this time I was fiddling with the radio trying to find Meryl Haggard singing Me and Bobby Mcgee.
          Everything was going great until I hit an awkward looking box elder tree. It was in front of the bunk house where Shiloh lives.f”

          Bobby McGee sprang, and her first step was at whirlwind speed. In a mega second she disappeared into the total blackness of night, and I knew she was gone. She had been summoned, and the totallness of her response said everything to me that I was eligible to know. That’s why I didn’t wait up. f

          TT

          • Busted flat in Baton Rouge, waitin’ for a train,

            first line of the song, my favorite singer and I have said it on here several times is Merle Haggard.I wonder why ff mispelled Merle see Meryl above. When you see the joker at work, ie mispelled words mean something else.

            TT

  26. On SC Book 245 ff said this “And that’s what he did, but not before painting a covered bridge and nailing a favored old paintbrush on for added flavor. So the palette is 33 ½ inches wide. But just for fun I measured it with my ruler also. Yup, 33 ½ inches wide. I always like to be exact. f”

    Closely examine the 3rd pic and imagine a very long vehicle about to enter a tunnel…er covered bridge, now what is the min clearance of a narrow gauge RR? 33 half inches flang to wheel clearence… How close behind ff did Bippy follow? 3′ the exact center of RR tracks.

    What is the object in SC Book 237,… an antique Spanish Wash Basin, which drainds into BEaver Creek then into the Rio Los Pinos, what is on the South Rim of the magnificent Toltec Gorge…Cruces Basin Wilderness, IMO WWWH a the Cross and what is on the Norht rim… it is the NM, CO Border where I shot my video at this marker https://dalneitzel.com/book-of-blazes-tom/
    A river runs through it, A train runs through it, a border runs through it.

    I rest my case…T T

    • Did I mention on Google Earth that the Garfield Memorial Tunnel from GE looks like a Rushmore sized favorite Animal of Forrests, its not a beaver, its a Buffalo Head (Nickle) image and the RR tracks form its horns, I showed that image to Forrest at Fennboree 2017 and Shiloh, does anyone else know who in SC Book 241 the 3rd pic down… anyone besides Zap and Blex that the $1 presidential coin image centered is President US Grant, did anyone know that President JA Garfield served under Grant at the Civil War Battle of Shiloh? Did anyone think it was odd for ff to show a stolen maple leaf from the White House Lawn, with doodles? What’s up with all those stick figures?

      Please do not touch or mess with my post there is so much more to say…TT

      • TT Does the word Stampede mean anything to an old mountain man. In the old days all the mountain men knew not to get in the way of a Buffalo herd when on the run.! Nothing looked the same when they were gone.

    • Searched there many times . Thought the same way , there is no chest there. We covered that area up and down.

  27. SC Book 219 is the Chili Line at WHO’s? Church, what is the Chili Line, https://www.american-rails.com/chili.html now you ask, and crock 22 with Italian Flavor beads? I like Thomas the little stick train said I Think I Can, I Think I Can,… I know I can tell, but I won’t tell until it rests in my hot little hand. Now what has this got to do with the price of old cars in 1956? If my church is in the mountains in Spanish and I shed a tear at the Cruce, where would this riddle lead me? Now that is a wild idea!

    TT

  28. To the Veteran Searchers,

    Has anyone ever looked at deciphering the poem from the stand point of a musical “fugue?”

    Poems and music go hand-in-hand.

    A fugue: is a contrapuntal compositional technique in two or more voices, built on a subject (a theme) that is introduced at the beginning in imitation (or mirror) and which recurs frequently in the course of the composition.

    Besides our poem having two voices a “fugue” can also include a “bridge” and our poem definitely has a bridge in Stanza #5; in the form of a question…

    The word “fugue” is derived from the idea of one subject “fleeing” with a second subject “chasing.”

    GCG

      • Sparrow,

        I seen the Bach of a “Snow Verdi” as he flew bye today!

        REO Speedwagon claims “You can tune a piano but you can’t tuna fish”!

        GCG might be onto something hear?

        All kidding aside, GCG, it makes more sense than some may think, if ya ask

        No chest. No hope. No kidding.

        ByGeorge

    • GCG – Wow. Very original thought and anything is possible. But that just adds another level of complexity for my little brain to handle. Good luck if you decide to investigate that thought some more.

    • Hello GCG. I have not thought of it in this way. I have for some time considered a bridge being involved. I recall a story told where Mr. Fenn had wished he knew how to play the cello (paraphrasing). A cello has a bridge. In TTOTC, there appears to have different “crossings” mentioned, such as walking across the desks. All could be quite coincidental.

    • GCG—

      Please note—your post is really sharp, while most of my theories fall flat. But it could be because I’m not a natural at this. My Mom used to say every good boy does fine. I just couldn’t face her. Sorry for the tone of this post.

  29. A couple of years ago Fenn said: “I will soon be 87 years old and one of my dreams is to die at age 90 under a tall pine tree way out in a forest someplace, and let my body go back to the soil.”
    https://www.distinctlymontana.com/treasure174
    I hope Mr Fenn is not planning to fulfill this dream as he will be celebrating his 90th birthday this year.

  30. Here is my opinion as to why, out of all the entire Rocky Mountain region, he selected this one location as his “special place.”

    As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,
    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.

    It is my theory that Major Fenn went to the canyon after receiving the news that he only had a 20% chance of survival from his cancer. He went there alone with his treasure (his life) and didn’t tell anyone his secret intention of ending his life under his own terms.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know,
    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

    At this point in his life, he was tired of living and going through the rigorous treatments for his cancer. However, something happened to him there at this special place. I believe that it must have been a profound spiritual experience that brought him to the realization that he had more to offer this world in the decades to come. Thus “riches new and old.” Up until this point, he enjoyed a remarkable life of wonders and miracles as he outlines in his memoirs, thus being “old.” Then for an extended miraculous and legendary life to follow, thus the “new.”

    Believe that Forrest has said that his father would have known where he hid the treasure chest, so I believe that his father somehow communicated to him at this “special place” that the major had so much more to contribute to the world if he would just persevere. So, it is my belief that within this bronze chest is the gold of his final memoir which tells about his own incredible journey of survival.

    Think that it would be a shame if this Treasure isn’t found during Forrest’s lifetime so that he can be an inspiring personal witness to the healing powers of our creator. Up until this time, bloggers and searchers have been telling of their own story while ignoring Forrest’s own personal experiences which far surpasses those of us that think we know what this “Chase” is all about.

      • I wanted to add…may we all find a special place of our own in this lifetime and find the will to go on despite great adversity. There is a rainbow on the other side.

    • Dave – Agreed with Sally that your interpretation of the given stanzas probably align closely to a lot of other searchers thoughts. Very nicely expressed. But I do disagree on one statement.
      “Up until this time, bloggers and searchers have been telling of their own story while ignoring Forrest’s own personal experiences.” I don’t think that can be any further from the truth. I can’t speak for every searcher, but It’s pretty evident to me that most are very in tune with and care deeply about Forrest and his “personal experiences.” I mean after all, that is what he has chosen to share with us in so many ways.

      But again, other then that, very nice way to interpret those parts of the poem.

      • IDK, really haven’t paid too much attention to many of the bloggers but when I hear them giving time to the fringes like the hand grenade guy, it really makes me wonder.

    • Dave-I think that FF special place has healing powers beyond anyone’s capable comprehension . Bottom line the place is sacred and has been for hundreds if not thousands of years. I also think that anyone that enters into the area would recognize it if they are the least bit tuned into their own soul so to speak. IMO

    • The thing that makes me question this whole concept is that nothing said by Forrest in the 15 years after his cure, and before he completed the poem (or even the years between diagnosis and cure), reference such a thing in any direct way. He does talk of the importance of the support from his wife and family, but nothing said of special places with healing powers. It’s hard to imagine that something that spiritually significant would be left unsaid, and not even obtusely referenced, by a storyteller as prolific as Forrest Fenn. It would become a pervasive theme.
      Just my opinion.

      mBG

      • I think the first paragraph of the first chapter on page 9 of TTOTC speaks directly to the spiritual aspect of the Chase. Now I’m not necessarily saying that this Special Place has healing properties, just saying that something profoundly affected Forrest at this location.

        • Dave,
          IMO Only…
          You are going to do well, thinking like that.

          I would venture to guess that his special spot is littered with
          ancient memories…riches new and old?

          Good luck!

          ByGeorge

    • @ Dave Icenhower, so correct in your assessment…think of what you expressed this way, “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.”

      I confirm your thought in light of “where warm water halts”, If Forrest escaped death in Laos Dec 21, 1968 and again with cancer, miraculously again, who knows, Like Bip he may be on a roll…the cat with 9 lives as I see’s “it” and where this “Special Place” physically exists, IT reminds him of those events…since we know where he was picked up by Candy Ann in Laos, what it looks like and what the exact coordinates are then this TS Elliot quote becomes a very important metaphor.

      Typically, expressions of this feeling is called “Déjà vu” it is said or called a feeling that one has lived through the present situation before or even been there before? Now here is where the plot or expression of the Riddle created by ff comes in as the first clue, “Where Warm Waters Halt” what if it were a place where he last had his brother Skippy, Mother, Father, June and or even Eric and Peggy? Now this place takes on a new dimension, not only is it WWWH, but gets the riddle to what we all might seek, the elements I mention here are universal feelings, some people find religion or spiritual guidance in these ideas, so let me see if this makes sense, ff’s place is where we have the “Last Supper” in our “Earthly Journey”, a place of final goodbyes even if we do not know it was FINAL, until later.

      If you were raised the way Forrest was that WWWH place might be his Church in the Mountains, let’s call IT his Sanctuary, it is where he survived, shed tears and metaphorically kneels at his “Cross”, what funeral did his father have and where, a Temple, a certain faith, a certain place of entombment.

      That is what my theory is about the “Cruces Basin Wilderness Area”, Crosses in Spanish, that Basin drains into the Beaver Creek, HOB, IMO, it is the South Rim of the Toltec Gorge, an uncanny looking “Karst” like the place, similar to the one in Laos from 1968, it is even at the exact longitude of 106….coincidence? Go ride the Cumbres and Toltec Train and see for yourself how this Scenic RR might figure into “Me and Bobby McGee.” This is only 90 miles from Santa Fe and in 1970’s had almost as many visitors as Carlsbad Caverns Nat’l Park. Why does Knowlege on his bells emphasize LEDGE see it on Google Earth, type in Osier Co or Toltec Gorge, or Cruces Basin Wilderness.

      TT

      • Tom,

        Where do you find the coordinates for where Major Fenn was picked up. It seems like everyday I learn more and more about the Chase. Somehow, there is some mystical call personally regarding Forrest. I initially joined the Air Force as a jet engine mechanic on the F-100’s, the majors type aircraft. After my stint in the USAF, I joined the Coast Guard as a flight paramedic. While searching for these coordinates, I discovered that the pilot of the Candy Ann was a Coastie as well. Amazing!

        Dave

  31. Hi. I’ve been searching around for a quote that I can no longer find. I believe Fenn, in reference to one of the 200′ searchers said something along the lines of “I didn’t know he knew me that well.” Can anyone here point me in the direction, or am I making this up?

    • Hey NDKarl,
      I don’t think that quote was associated with the 200′ statement.

      Did you ever search Snowflake Springs? I like that area where the Gallatin flows.

      • Thanks Jake. Yeah, I can’t seem to find it anywhere anymore.

        I didn’t make it to Snowflake – I’ve redirected my gaze from the Gallatin river and my ‘riddle’ solves – but I do still like that area. I’m hoping to make it out west next summer. Top 3 (no particular order): Nez Perce area, Gallatin (really anywhere north of W.Y. to T.F region), and Earthquake Lake area. Like everyone else, I remain flummoxed.

        I haven’t been around much lately – did you make it out to your area over the summer? Enjoyable hunting?

          • Hello Jake. Are you going back to this area this year? I remember viewing the photo of the tree during one of our chats.

          • Jake,

            That’s the second time you have shown a cairn.

            I understand looking it over but is that something we should be disturbing? Do you dig under it, just because?

            And isn’t that considered a man made structure?
            I’m just trying to close a door on some thinking is all.

            I’ve always used it as marker of sorts.

            Anyone can chime in…much appreciated.

            ByGeorge

          • Pd, I will be going back to that area in late summer or early fall.
            The poem leads me to this area and a few others close by.
            Are you still poking around the Yellowstone area?

            ByG,
            It’s the same cairn. When it’s the only blaze you find in the area, I think you should find out what’s beneath it seeing I traveled 750 miles to get there and I didn’t want to think about it all winter long even though I highly doubt the blaze is a cairn.
            How about you and your travels?

          • Hello Jake. I’m glad to hear you’re going back. I still look in Yellowstone, but mostly enjoying the time with family and doing some fly fishing. I have a new rod I need to break in and I want to feel the fight on the line. I do think of other states, but I can’t help but think of Yellowstone. I’d like to think I know how Mr. Fenn felt/feels about the place whether the treasure chest is there or not.

          • You might as well enjoy yourself and do a little fishing with family while you’re there.
            Stick with the Yellowstone area. You can’t go wrong.

          • Jake,

            Thank you for the ly.

            I just thought a cairn would be considered a man made structure. Do you dig beneath the area of movable rocks? The few that I’ve seen, there was nothing under them when the rocks were removed. I didn’t dig.

            As for my adventures, just like the rest, I’m still plugging away. My last botg was interesting but I’ve got work to do.

            One last thing, I seen a short while back where you didn’t want to throw gas on the fire…but I’ve been saying that to the guys at work. The picture has been painted, to me, speaks volumes.

            Good luck Jake! And thanks again.

            IMO Only…

            Never forget…

            ByGeorge

    • I think that quote was secondhand information that was never really verified. There is all sorts of buzz about it (other blogs), but nothing that can be taken as fact (that I have found). Try google with quotes around “me that well”

      mBG

  32. To All-

    I posed the following in the Hidey Place thread and realized that may not have been the best thread to post it. So I am reposting here.

    Speaking of more pressing matters…….

    I just read over the Qs & As from this link (which I believe I obtained somewhere from Lori thank you!):

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-toponymy-or-geography/

    And I must say, I have a much better understanding from FF himself, regarding the treasure, than I’ve gotten in the week or so from all of the back and forth in these threads! To be clear, I do not mean to offend. I realize I have not been at this long, but in my short observation on the thoughts and exchanges shared here, it seems to me those, who may be in the chase much longer than I have strayed from the simplistic approach with which FF started this mess to say the least. If my words here are poorly chosen, I apologize. My point is this:
    While the fantasy and yes thrill of the hunt and chase and figuring everything out is quite alluring and exciting, I encourage everyone who is seriously looking for the chest, to pause, take a step back and return to the basics. I believe, and everything said here is IMO, that the poem, some sense of geography as FF has so eloquently encouraged would be most useful (see link above), and not taking into account history or the endless meanings the words in the poem can have, will all best suite someone seeking the correct location. I am also inclined to believe, based on the answers FF gives in the link above, that if/when the chest is found, everyone else will be saying to themselves, so THAT’s what he meant! I encourage everyone, myself included, to take a good hard look at the poem and only the poem, and read it anew as if reading it for the very first time. But this time, try to block out everything else you’ve read or heard about FF, the poem, his books, or whatever else you may associate with the chase, and really just focus on the words as a map to the treasure. And by map I mean the poem points us to a geographical location, one that is transferrable to the types of maps we are used to such as GE. The bridge (figurative not cryptic) between the two (the poem and an actual map) is the geography.

    Again, all is IMO, but I hope this helps those who may have gotten sucked into the vortex of possibilities. May this help to pull you out.

    Additionally, I just want to add that the main reason I have no qualms about sharing where I think the chest may be hidden is because I alone cannot search every possibility. And yes, while I realize finding the treasure would be life changing for most, the reality is that it will only be found once. I would hope that at some point those truly interested in the chase and the correct solve coming to light, will be more concerned with the chest being found than with who finds the chest. And I would also hope that whoever finds the chest would be humanitarian enough to recognize anyone who has helped, whether it be on blogs like this or their children solving a clue or whatever the case may be.

    Okay, I have rambled for long enough. I admire everyone for their passion and drive. I just hope the intensity of the passion is not blinding. That said, I wish everyone well in re-examining the poem and finding solves worth exploring! Not that any are likely not worth exploring as the exploration could be rewarding, but I hope you know what I mean.

    All IMO.

    And that concludes the repost. Hope you have enjoyed the thoughts.

    -Ann

  33. Just a note, framed as awareness…but actually a complaint…
    The Department of the Interior wants to change the rules…AGAIN.

    You might remember that at age 62 a US Citizen can get a Lifetime Senior Pass that allows the senior and spouse free access to any National Park and many other fee required national recreation lands. It also provides for half off a camping site at federal campgrounds…The cost went up a couple years ago from $10 to $80 for this Lifetime Pass.

    There is also an Annual Pass that provides the same benefits for the same seniors but it’s only good for a year and costs $20.

    If you’re not a senior you can get an annual pass for a car full of your family for $80

    Different lands choose different fees and some don’t charge fees at all but when it can cost upwards of $50 to enter a National Park for a day for two folks in one car…those passes are good deals for frequent visitors.

    They include free access to National Parks, National Forests, National Monuments, National Grasslands, Army Corps areas, BLM managed lands and other fee required federal lands. They are not good for State or County lands…only Federal lands.

    But now, after selling these passes with the promise of free access always…the folks who sell them want to change the rules and say that the Senior Lifetime and Senior Annual passes won’t be honored at peak periods…

    Like what?…summer?
    They haven’t defined what “peak periods” include, but my guess is they are whatever they decide they want them to be and they will make that decision on a day by day basis.

    We possibly won’t know til we arrive at the gate whether the Lifetime or Annual pass we bought is going to be honored or not…

    It seems like a taking to me. They sold us one thing and change the rules when it pleases them.

    What would be fairer is to honor the rules the pass was sold under and create new rules for new passes. Make the new passes a different color or call them something different so folks at the gate can easily see what pass you have and determine which rules exist for that pass.

    I don’t want this to turn into a political discussion. So if you want to add your two cents where it might matter send a note to your federal representatives.

    By the way, you can read an article about this in AARP Magazine:
    https://www.aarp.org/politics-society/advocacy/info-2019/national-parks-senior-discounts.html

    • Dal – That makes me livid. What a bunch of bull…..
      Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

      Please y’all – this is a “call to action” – draft that letter to the Feds.
      www

    • Wouldn’t want those pesky seniors taking advantage of the things they paid for, like social security and lifetime park passes. Besides, they drive too slow and cause traffic jams.
      Regarding the current senior passes, I got an interesting explanation from a park person at the gate. You can buy a senior annual pass for $20, and the $20 counts towards the $80 for a lifetime senior pass. So, if you have 3 years of Senior passes, you can get your lifetime pass in the 4th year for $20. Now, I assume you need to keep the annual passes to hand them in (unless they have a database, which would surprise me). Sounded strange to me, but she expended some effort to make it clear. I was going to buy an $80 pass, but she dissuaded me. Just wanted to pass it on to those not lucky enough to have purchased a lifetime when they were cheap.

      mBG

    • Older adults bought the lifetime pass and were told it was good every day of the year,” I am 73 years old, I am a US Navy Veteran, I paid over $400,000 in Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes, I am a tribal member of the Creek (Muskogee) Nation, I can use VA medical, Medicare, and Indian Health Services, I paid for or earned or inherited these benefits, now you are taking some away after promising me, no having me pay for these? Sounds a lot like the deal, treaties that my ancestors signed with Uncle Sam… Please do not take and take, it will be another broken promise. Tom Terrific

      This is what I left at the AARP comments on this Dal..

      TT

  34. Thanks Dal…..trying to stay the away from a political stance by not letting anyone know if I am a “Yankee” or a “Feb”. One thing we can all do is sing that Woody Guthrie song a little louder.
    “This Land Is My Land…This Land Is Your Land”
    Shame to have to feel that grip on the turnip after paying into the coffer already for decades. If they can’t generate enough off the elderly maybe they can find a way to fleece those with disabilities. Climbing down off this soapbox….I need it to start a fire to keep warm on my fixed income!
    -guy michael-

  35. BG – I found that rather humorous.
    Make sure you wear your visor before firing that thang up.
    Your wife is one smart cookie.

    • wwwamericana,

      With a blank stare…my wife thanks you.

      I was just having some fun. Hopefully others got a chuckle out of it. I was trying to keep it Eco-friendly. You know, green! It’s not easy being green…I feel ya!!!

      As for a visor, nahh. Real men don’t need no stinking visors. GIGGLES suggested GOGGLES!!! I had to grin…

      Anyway…thank you, for your kind words. Enjoy your weekend www!

      ByGeorge

  36. I have a tool that might be useful for people who will be BOTG. I have been using it for many years when I go out prospecting.

    It is called BackCountry Navigator Pro. It is an app for your smartphone and is available on Google Play.
    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.crittermap.backcountrynavigator.license&hl=en

    It has both a paid and FREE version. It uses the GPS on your phone to locate you, and you can record tracks (your hiking path), as well as adding waypoints. When you are back home, you can then upload those tracks as a .kml file that you can open in Google Earth.

    What I especially like about it is that I can download maps of the area I will be in while I am at home (over wifi). Those maps are then stored on my phone. When I get out into the woods, sometimes there is no phone service, but the app doesn’t need it. I usually download both topo maps as well as satellite imagery.

    When I park at my starting point, I pull up the map or tell the app to Center on my location. Once it has found me, I begin recording the track. Then I set my phone to Airplane Mode to save battery. More than a few times I wandered away from my intended destination or got turned around. I just pulled up the app and I can see the path I took to get here and how to get back.

    If you don’t already have some sort of GPS that you are happy with, check out this app. I am in no way connected to the app’s developers and receive nothing for recommending it. It is just what I use when I am out gold prospecting.

    Hunt smart. Hunt safe.

    -Lori

      • JDA,

        Your presence is missed. I certainly hope all is well with you, and your family.

        Happy new year and thank you for your service!…that deserves a ((HUG)), a Thank You,, a HIGH 5, and a pat on the butt.

        Good luck, and stay well, JDA. I’m sure Forrest appreciates your tenacity!!!

        IMO Only…

        Never forget…

        ByGeorge

        • Thanks ByGeorge.

          My family and I are doing well. Just “Hunkerin down for a long winter’s nap” Like most searchers, am looking forward to the end of the snow, and the fragrances of spring. (That was just a long sigh that you heard >>> Take care, stay warm and safe – JDA

    • Lori,

      Such wonderful information!!! I like your techniques to be sure. How interesting t would be to see the change in tracks over the years as focused has shifted from one area to another. Makes you wonder where most of the early searches were. I will definitely check out the app, if for no other reason than to be able to retrace my steps wherever may go! Sometimes it’s nice just to reflect on where we’ve been (literally and figuratively). Seems like the app you use would help searchers avoid redundancy for themselves, even while on a search! Hopefully it makes searching an area much more efficient.

      -Ann

      • Ann,
        That is precisely why I use it. In the winter I do a ton of research, looking at old maps, geology reports, old mining claims, etc. Then I mark places of interest on Google Earth. I can save those places in a .kml file and load it into my phone. Then as I go BOTG, I can mark waypoints as I go. When I get home, I upload that file back into Google Earth. Over time, areas I have explored get filled with markers. But I know where I have looked, where are the interesting places and what areas are duds.

        You can always just play with it at home to get accustomed to the various features. Take a walk around the block and see how it functions.

        -Lori

    • Lori,

      Thanks for the heads up. Sounds quite useful. I know that experienced hikers take pictures of “landmarks” from both sides. One as they approach, and then another after they’ve passed. That’s because it looks different on the way back. GOOD THINKING!!

      IMO Only ..

      Never forget…

      ByGeorge

      • Oh I forgot about the pictures. You can take pictures and the app will remember where you took them. That would be handy for taking pictures of your blaze, Hob, or whatever. It has a lot of features and the price is right.

        -Lori

    • I use Gaia maps for the same thing, and it works with PC, Android and iPhone. It has USGS topo, Gaia Topo, satellite, open street map (OSM), nat geo trails, and on and on. You can download for offline access and it has GPS tracking as well (although it won’t track on a PC). You can check them out for free here https://www.gaiagps.com/map/?loc=3.8/-114.5774/60.7119&layer=GaiaTopoRasterFeet . It cost $11/year for the mobile basic version. I like it because I have Android tablets, iPhone, and like to plan on the PC.

      In addition, I have a laptop in my car with Google Earth and a GPS. Before the trip, I cache an area in GE (tedious) and save the cache file for offline access. As I drive through (for example) Yellowstone, I have an active track on Google Earth, and can stop and look at what is around me on the laptop (including all my Google Earth placemarks.) That is in addition to my Gaia maps topo and satellite images that are also cached for offline access.

  37. A general observation of recent comments Fenn has made in recent videos…
    +———————————————————-+
    Curious comments fenn recently stated gave me pause to thought. The recent comments are not new information, just stated slightly different then the old related comments… In part;
    Knowing when the chest is found.
    The possibility of the type of land it lays in wait.
    And a somewhat new comment… He got lucky no one was around… Being a major event. (Although I recall an early Q&A asking that same question with an answer of, both… people around vs. no one around)

    What I find interesting was fenn’s example of renting a cabin. It’s not do much the cabin that comes into play, as much as, who has ownership of the property… When rented?

    Another comment was about the three museum parking lots. Many like to put though to the parking area than the differences of the museum’s. (Some like to call the parking lot location the 10th clue… But I’m leaning toward the differences being of importance…just sayin)
    Which might relate to another earlier Q&A about knowledge of US history..

    While none of the information , imo, will provide answers for deciphering a clue reference… I think it may help in the areas a searcher would consider a possibility of the search location.

    All the videos recently released have been posted here, so I’m not going to repost them again.
    I’m more interested in conversation of the “location” and why ownership might be an idea of what the location is about, and how it could possibly play a roll in a solution.

    • Seeker, I’m missing one. You say 3 museum parking lots? The flagstaff az, the Denver CO are the ones I knew. Which other one?

      • Unless I heard wrong… One was AZ… The other was the Denver Museum of science and the other was the Denver Museum of history.

        Again I’m not interested in the parking lot as much as the museums.

        • Hello Seeker. If I recall correctly, Denver Museum of Science/Denver Museum of History are one in the same. Years ago, the museum went through a name change.

          • As per Pdenver:

            “The city of Denver increased its funding for the museum, leading to a name change to Denver Museum of Natural History in 1948. The name was changed again in 2000 to the present Denver Museum of Nature and Science, reflecting the institution’s wider focus.”

          • You can be correct PD,
            They both have the same address… but the sign states… of “science and natural History”
            I haven’t looked into it as of yet… too much.
            I mean these videos just came out recently, and I just heard the one comment that caught my attention… the point is…
            Is there a difference to the “science vs. natural history” and having any related idea to MDavis Q&A about US history, line of thinking… and not so much about a blacktop area to park in or where that blacktop is?
            AZ has two museums in flagstaff. One NAU art museum and the other, Pioneer museum.
            Which one did fenn mentions years back, and why?
            I mean, we know AZ is not where we want to be… so what was the point of mentioning a museum from AZ and CO. I would assume there might be a connection of interest… if there is any connection at all.

          • Hello Seeker. In the beginning of the following video, Mr. Preston was asked about the Arizona parking lot. In said video, approximately 22:42 minute mark, Mr. Fenn was questioned about it and he gave an explanation that may help you:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoWbwFZlTyA

            I’ve thought of the Denver Museum, and different things have come to mind. Somewhere on the property is a water display which reminds me of Yellowstone and its geysers. I’ve thought of the parking lot/museum as an attraction; a place people gather. I’ve thought of “park” and units/parking spaces. Someone quite some time ago when it was mentioned posted about the license plate reading “New Mexico”. I thought that was quite clever. I’m sure there’s other ideas, but these are the ones that come to mind.

          • Thank you for the post, Alsetenash. I knew there was a change, but couldn’t remember the year.

        • Oz,
          I hope my explanation to PD, explains better.
          My familiarity with museums, lol are limited. But I do know they have different section and even different building on the same property for different exhibitions.
          To put a tail on the donkeys butt… I see, “Pioneer” and “Natural history” being of more ‘possible’ importance the their parking lots.

          • Hello Seeker. The different compartments/displays reminds me of the scrapbook about “Cuddles” and his mention of his toes being in compartments (paraphrased). Separation? Isolation? As for the pioneer/natural history, I’m reminded about the trails traveled across the land. I’ve considered such, but I believe I was more on prairie land than in the mountains.

          • PD,

            The displays at any museum doesn’t mean anything to me. That would almost require a searcher to visit the place to acquire a clue or hint [ call it what you will ] and those displays can change / rotate in short periods of time as well.
            My interest is about the wording on the museums are depicting; “Pioneer”… and the other…”Natural History”
            MY point is; it doesn’t matter where the museum’s location is being mentioned or any particular display… it is what they represent to *the study of*… that might be of importance.
            The same can be said for “The Cody” museum being mentioned… imo, a museum in NY could have been mentioned IF it fell into the same guide lines.
            Other comments seem to play a roll in the thought…
            No ~ to “US” history.
            Born a 100 years to late.
            Comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.

            Is there a pattern here to lean towards, or to keep aberrations at bay?
            I mean, years back when AZ was mentioned, folks went there to search… years later a map, and comment came out killing any thought to AZ … but one has to think why the AZ museum *may have* had a reason to be mentioned, and now the Denver museum, or even the Cody Museum.

          • Hello Seeker. Those are good thoughts. The Pioneers were the “first” and there’s plenty of history wish that, one being the trappers/Lewis and Clark. Those trailblazers are mentioned in the book(s). I had other thoughts in regards to this a few years ago, but after Mr. Fenn mentioned not in the desert, it scrapped those ideas pretty good. I really thought there was a good possibility I understood the clues and “hint(s)” in the book, but was proven wrong after that. Would have fit the “natural history” as you mentioned.

          • Maybe a re-watch of the video would clear this up and show any *relevance* at all. Then again… maybe not.

          • Seeker, got it. Regarding the museum in Denver and the university in AZ I have no idea how those can play out as a ’10th clue’. The one interesting thing to me about those two locations and I’ve mentioned it before is their distance from Santa Fe, NM. Driving time is 5 hours and 36 minutes to NAU and 5 hours 42 minutes to the Denver Museum. That’s pretty close.

            What does that mean? I can speculate that if any of those two places was going to be the spot where he left his car, then that is as much he was able to drive (under 6 hours). From there to the treasure location another method of transportation will be needed. This wouldn’t narrow down an area cause he could do the whole thing in more than one day or take an overnight bus or something. I don’t know how to look at it as a 10th clue.

    • My answer is-Water. The history of water. We are so removed from taking time to observe nature , that we rely on others whom have and google it. Many nature scientists from generations past ( pioneers in the field of observing nature) had spent years purposefully observing nature by living in it. Would we now spend a year or two, in isolation in the bush, observing nature? We get bored after a couple hours . In the late 1800’s-early 1900’s ,one guy spent a year in isolation in the wild just studying waterways. From his observations , today we redesigned some rivers for industrial purposes such as for logging- designed rivers to help float logs down stream. The ancient civilizations also designed their irrigation systems for farming from observing nature- aka.. the Incas, Mayans, Native Americans etc etc.

      Google hasn’t made us smarter. It just gives us access to the pioneers that were wise to learn and shared their teachings.

      A river runs through it.
      Page 8
      Thank you S.

      It’s in the comms.

      IMO .

      • Oops , copied only secant have to paste. Dal, please deletemy post starting with ” My answebis -water”

        Here’s my full comment:

        Seeker. I’ll add a perspective that may not be worth much.

        Quoting you : “it is what they represent to *the study of*… that might be of importance”. What you say here, I think is the main point to what FF said as a point- never mind what Preston said. Learning about geography is important , right? Would not then the history of geography be important? If so, mind you, then the question needing some tangibility would be- of the what of geography to study and know? Need to be specific in what to study for this inquiry.

        My answer is-Water. The history of water. We are so removed from taking time to observe nature , that we rely on others whom have and google it. Many nature scientists from generations past ( pioneers in the field of observing nature) had spent years purposefully observing nature by living in it. Would we now spend a year or two, in isolation in the bush, observing nature? We get bored after a couple hours . In the late 1800’s-early 1900’s ,one guy spent a year in isolation in the wild just studying waterways. From his observations , today we redesigned some rivers for industrial purposes such as for logging- designed rivers to help float logs down stream. The ancient civilizations also designed their irrigation systems for farming from observing nature- aka.. the Incas, Mayans, Native Americans etc etc.

        Google hasn’t made us smarter. It just gives us access to the pioneers that were wise to learn and shared their teachings.

        A river runs through it.
        Page 8
        Thank you S.

        It’s in the comms.

        IMO .

  38. Caller: “Hello Mr Obvious? First time caller, long time listener. I have a question for you. It’s about this new quote from Forrest. I don’t get it. “My Shadow Ain’t Kast by a Fool.” What’s all that about? I’m baffled again.”

    Mr Obvious: “Well caller. It appears to be a slightly edited version of a quote from the past. Back in 2015, I think, f was being tempted by a searcher to divulge a clue. He replied “Ha, I may be getting old, but my shadow ain’t cast by no fool.”

    Caller: “Huh? Sorry Mr Obvious, I still don’t get it.”

    Mr Obvious: “Well let me finish caller. This is a spin on an old proverbial phrase. Forrest is saying he can’t be fooled easily. He is smarter than searchers think he is. Here’s another one.

    The Beekeeper’s Rhyme

    A swarm in May
    Is worth a load of hay;

    A swarm in June
    Is worth a silver spoon;

    But a swarm in July
    Is not worth a fly.

    There you have it caller.”

    Caller: “OK, well I hate to beat a dead horse but I still don’t get it Mr Obvious.”

    Mr Obvious: “Me either caller, but it rhymes. If it’s any consolation, look up Kast again, this time use the Urban dictionary. Good luck. May your cupboards be always filled.”

  39. Thanks for the links to the videos Dal. Thanks also to the makers of them, and the ongoing efforts to get info from Fenn via interviews. There are some pretty good new things offered by Fenn in the vids… or at the least… more clear answers to Q’s previously asked and topics up for debate in years gone by. All in all… Fenn is still very sharp/quick when put on the spot and I seriously doubt he’s going to cough up anything that will definitively break the case wide open.

    • Ken-
      Reposting that list here so more folks see it-

      There are two recently released video interviews with Forrest. One was shot in May of 2019 by Cynthia at Forrest’s house. Cynthia had to wait to release it until she had permission from the Australian company that hired her to shoot it. She recently obtained permission and posted that video here:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP6fcZ-yn9M

      There is also a second use of that video in a discussion between Cowlazers, KPro and Cynthia that was streamed live. It is over two and a half hours in length and includes the video that Cynthia shot and linked above. That version is here:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmnFNmqLmzE&t=1145s

      There is another video interview with Forrest that was shot by KPro, Cynthia and Cowlazers at Doug Preston’s office in Santa Fe on November 6th, 2019. It features Forrest and Doug. Cowlazers writes that “These are all the clips that have been released so far” on the video page. Does that mean more from that video will be posted in the future? Who knows?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoWbwFZlTyA&feature=youtu.be&t=1569

    • It would be interesting to behold Samuel Clements match wits with Mr. Fenn, that would be quite a jubilation to witness!!!

      • I couldn’t easily find much info about Samuel Clements. Was he a good typist or proofreader?

        • TA,
          I’d say neither.

          Every 25 and 50 years… Jubilation!

          Forrest was shot down in 68….it passed.

          It might just have something to do with a middle name? Like Magnum P.I.?

          Just a wild guess…tricksters.

          That’s still hilarious, if ya think about it.

          ByGeorge

  40. To All,

    I am guessing FF hid the treasure and then finished crafting the poem based on the location, as opposed to crafting the poem to arrive at a particular destination. To put it another way, I don;t think FF write the poem as he went, but rather, wrote the poem based on where he had already gone. It doesn’t make much sense to pick a hiding spot after unfolding a route to get there. It is more likely that the poem was picked because of the hiding spot, not for a hiding spot. What’s my point? The point here is that while the poem is intended to lead us to the chest, it was not written to hide the chest. All IMO.

    Dal,

    Thanks for ensuring the new videos would be available to us once they were available for posting again. While I have not yet viewed them I am looking forward to finding out what all the hype is about.

    -Ann

    • Ann, I think yes and no.
      Yes, he hid the chest first, and finished crafting the poem in 2010. I think that was discussed long ago, that f finalized the poem in the last year.
      No, not as far as writing the poem for 15 years, but coming up with a way for people searching to find his chest. After 15 years of playing “architect”, he used a poem to relay his message. Meaning his words also hold a camouflaged storyline, which he finalized the last year. This is all IMO, so take it for what it’s worth.
      The 15 years is the “construction” of the way he was going to tell us, without really telling us, where a chest is. He could of used pictures, or numbers, or whatever else, but he decided on words compiled into a poem.
      But I see you being correct in the thought of f needing to go hide the chest first then, when on that path, using that path to finalize his poem thoughts. So basically, the poem will show us a path, in order to find a spot. The so called clues, at least some of them, would have been created within the last year, when he finalized. (with that thought, a thought of distance would come to mind, some of the clues would have to be a measurement of distance). Meaning, there are numbers hidden within the poem, IMO. He would know the geography of the land, also the names of places, but he would need to find distances. The only way to do that accurately would be to actually be out there. IMO, that is the tweaking that needed to be done the last year.

      • Poisonivy ~*The 15 years is the “construction” of the way he was going to tell us, without really telling us, where a chest is. He could of used pictures, or numbers, or whatever else, but he decided on words compiled into a poem.* … * So basically, the poem will show us a path, in order to find a spot. The so called clues, at least some of them, would have been created within the last year, when he finalized.

        Yep, That’s one way of looking at it. But the use of path as you seem to use means’ needing to travel by movement.

        Path; a course of action
        Action; the fact or process of doing something, typically to achieve an aim. … a manner or style of doing something, typically the way in which a mechanism works. … the events represented in a *story* or play.

        Lets take some keywords from those meanings;
        a process to achieve an aim. {does this require movement of a searcher?}
        A manner, in which a mechanism works. {does this require movement of a searcher?}
        An event representing a play ~how something is expected to play-out? {does this require movement of a searcher?}

        PATH; a course of action… The question is; what ‘action’ is taken by a searcher?
        Or is path simply something to walk on.

        Follow as some interesting usages;
        go after (someone) in order to *observe or monitor.* {does his require movement of a searcher?}
        strive after; aim at. {does this require movement of a searcher?} come after in *time* or order. {does this require movement of a searcher?}

        Think and analyze and plan and observe are things we are told to take into consideration.
        Can Path and Follow or even Lead have usages other than distances, points needing traveling / movement of a searcher?

        Point; If all a reader of the poem does is analyze one set of meanings for the word and wordings, only certain idea can be workable. IMO, this is exactly what was hoped… the simplistic meanings of word used, rather than, a different perspective of those same words and their meanings and usages… We create an illusion by over simplifying the challenge.

        You said ~ *but he would need to find distances. The only way to do that accurately would be to actually be out there. IMO, that is the tweaking that needed to be done the last year.*

        Sounds very reasonable to the usages of path being, well, a walking method fro point to point. But to find “distances” for the reader to follow with “accuracy”… they must be in the poem, right?

        Lets talk about that:
        We would need a distance between WWSH and said canyon. Need between canyon and hoB and/or put in.
        Need a distance for ‘from there’ to meek. a distance to the end. Some distance for the remainder of stanza 3. and might need a distance for the blaze to the chest… depending.
        A quick count could be as many as 8 or a couple less.
        That seems to be a lot of measuring needed to be known. Where is at least one of those “accurate” measurements in the poem?

        One idea for a type of measurement is the word end. It can simply mean; the point something stops. OK, no measurement needed here, right? But end can mean of a border or boundary… this gives options to think about. Property boundary, country border, a state line, etc. Yet, nothing here has the need for exactness of measurements and it give many different option of how to go… none of which seem precise, accurate by any means… it’s more like a hit and miss and a process of elimination, or a really good guess to get it right the first time out.

        However, looking at those words meanings above; there is limited movement by a searcher IF the consideration of observing an “event” by utilizing the clue’s reference and following the poem in that manner of observing… making *observe or monitor.* – come after in *time* or order of an action of a searcher to be aware of in following the clues.

        The method of point to point and distances needed and different meanings having different places to check out can have thousands of searchers in small and large areas only to have the need of eliminating many option. This hoB in one place vs. another in another place, idea.
        That seems to be exactly what is happening all over the RM’s right now. IMO, because too many variables can be likely… but nothing seems “precise” even when at the correct site with the first two clues solved while still going by everything else.

        Isn’t “precisely” supposed to be “accurate” “exact” and have “certainty of the Path”.. beforehand?

        My question is; Why did fenn need to follow his own clues [because there’s no other way]
        We should be asking; what *action* did he do to *follow* them. Did he need to plan and observe ??? like we are told?

        Both theories have legit thoughts… I’m just wondering which seem logical to a “precise” method, for a one time result…. go straight to the chest. But which gives meaning as to; following the clues in the poem before the poem was complete (completed?)
        I don’t think it has anything to do with “writing” the poem.

        My above comment is full of it… opinions I mean.

        • seeker a asked- why did fenn follow his own clues. seeker I think you answered your own question— because there is no other way–you can walk or drive – you still go by the clues going or coming – walking or driving – you only go in once on your way in- and once on your way out

          • Frank,

            I get what you’re saying… but ‘going by’ is not following “precisely”… especially to the idea poisonivy gave as distances and accuracy of them, fenn would have done when he hid the chest and finish the poem from that information gathered.
            And I also get the idea that we could pass the chest, go to WWsH and work back in the same direction we came in from to find the chest.
            That idea blows my mind IF we can solve later clues on a map [where they are, down to the size they represent, distance apart] beforehand. To me, you wouldn’t need to go to WWsH or any clue, other than the last…
            And, there would be no need for fenn’s comment ‘he’ followed the clues “In the Poem” *when he hid the chest*… he knew them beforehand, did he not?

          • seeker you don’t see all the clues you see some and some you cant because of the little hills that get in your view as you are driving by – but it shouldn’t matter because you should already know where you are going

          • Think about a box canyon. Only one way in or out. The side walls are cliffs, so no going up or down those.

            Only one entrance to the canyon means you must go past certain waypoints (poem clues) and there is no other way to get there. When leaving, the only way out is back the way you came in reverse.

            Simple, really.

            -Lori

          • This also fits with being “isolated” – someplace people do not usually go. It explains how someone could be relatively near but walk past the chest. Maybe they were on a trail up above the canyon. What if the canyon was 200′ deep? or 500′ feet long?

            Just a thought.

            -Lori

          • Lori,

            Well said! Reasonable and sensible. Some locations like a the type of canyon you described have only one way in or out, at least in terms of this Chase. That is to say, in opposition to those in disagreement, we do not mean skydiving in or rappelling . I’m liking your description of a likely location more and more!

            -Ann

        • Seeker,

          I feel like you overanalyzed poisonivy’s comments quite a bit. But, you were fairly thorough in terms of what you said. I do not agree with your over simplifying remarks. Being newer to the chase, I am of the opinion that those who have been at it longer may be overcomplicating the whole thing. I am reminded of the Geico commercials about so easy a caveman could do it. While I understand FF’s remarks about crafting the poem and the well debated length of time it took for home to work on it, I do not believe he chose the words he chose for some elaborate and complex reason. IMO, he chose them because they would be simple enough for anyone to understand and they also best describe how to get to the chest in FF’s opinion. Could a different set of words written in another poem, lead someone to the same spot FF has in mind? Perhaps. Without knowing the spot for certain it’s hard to say. But I will use a simple example that I normally use when describing semantics.

          Imagine an art class of 30 students. On a table sits a bowl of fruit, which each student is to paint on a canvas. They are given as much time as is needed to complete the task and present their results.
          1. Of the 30 student paintings how many do you suppose are exactly the same?
          2. Of the 40 student paintings, which one(s) are the most accurate?
          3. Of the 30 student paintings, which one(s) represent the bowl of fruit most accurately?
          4. DO any of the 30 student paintings portray the bowl of fruit as it actually exists?

          I will leave it up to the readers of this post to answer these questions for themselves. I hope in so doing they understand the example. And that brings me to your question.

          “Why did fenn need to follow his own clues [because there’s no other way]”

          I take it the bracketed words are your suggested answer to the question. In terms of my post above, FF didn’t have to follow any clues in order to hide the chest. We are the ones who must follow the clues to find the chest because the clues refer to way FF went. So yes, asking yourself how did FF go about it is a good way to think about the search. And as I have suggested elsewhere, I would also ask what do the words in the poem mean to FF in lieu of the poem needing to lead to a chest? That is where is architect comments come into play. He constructed a poem to lead us all to a chest. He did not hide a chest based on a poem he constructed. All IMO of course.

          -Ann

          • It doesn’t have to be a box canyon. That is just an example that came to mind. I have done extensive hiking all my life and I remember one place in California on the John Muir trail call Bear Ridge. It was a cliff almost straight up. The trail was switch-backs all the way up. And it was the only way up.

            I have seen places where a ridge of rock had very steep sides and just a small “finger” of a ridge that stuck out over a valley. That “finger ridge” had massive boulders on it where the “knuckles” would be, and a very narrow passageway to get past them out to the overlook.

            Just some examples from my own experience.

            -Lori

          • Lori,

            I am not sure if your box canyon clarification was intended for me, but I was in agreement with you over the idea. I like the example because it wonderfully illustrates a one way in one way out scenario. I realize there may be other instances too. It was the thinking I was admiring. My remarks above, which I directed to seeker, were not meant to be directed at you as well. I apologize if that is how it seemed. Won’t it be nice when the chest is finally found and everyone knows what FF was talking about!!! Hoping that day comes in my lifetime! All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Ann, you bring up an excellent thought. You said, “Could a different set of words written in another poem, lead someone to the same spot FF has in mind?”
            That is by far one of the best questions I’ve heard in a while. And even though I don’t agree with your thoughts, (mine being no way), It’s a great question.
            If the answer is yes, then the meanings of words comes into play. If the answer is no, then the meaning of words is not the way.
            Along with other options, it is a question that the community should address. Because if not the meanings of words, then what? (everyone will start to get on the numbers band-wagon). And like I said, if in 1000 years, a word no longer has meaning, or can’t be looked up, then how would they solve the poem?
            Great question Ann…

          • poisonivy,

            Thank you!?! I could feel the enthusiasm in your remarks and I am glad the question is of interest. It certainly seems like one that ought to be asked and answered. I don’t recall now what made me think of it but it begs the question; what f? I am reminded here of a geometry problem posed to a college class I took. We were to prove the Pythagorean Theorem using Euclid’s method. While such a proof is so fundamental to Euclidean Geometry, a complete and thorough proof eluded the entire class, professor included. Of the 30 or so students in the class I was the only one who managed to submit a valid answer, though admittedly it was challenging even for me. One of my classmates was determined to find a solution to the problem on his own. I even helped him out a bit in making sure it was indeed complete. Alas, he could not prove one important piece to the puzzle. And I couldn’t either. Until I did. I tried to help guide him to the missing piece but I was unsuccessful. So, instead he just had me tell him. I presented this second solution in our next class. It didn’t end there. This particular classmate ended up writing the authors and editors of the text since our professor didn’t have an copy of the book with the suggested answer in it. They replied and offered up an answer to the problem which the professor went over in class. Come to find out (as I followed along in class) the proof they sent us was incomplete!

            What is my point in sharing this story with you? Nothing specific really. It’s more illustrative than anything. Here we had a problem that seemed so simple because of its fundamental nature, yet it proved rather challenging. I ( and yes I am bragging a bit here) devised not one but two complete solutions, both of which produced the same result. And mind you all this occurred while the authors could not provide a valid solution themselves.

            I do not know whether a different poem with different words could lead someone to the spot FF and his poem are intended to lead people to. But, just as 30 art students will each paint the same bowl of fruit in their own unique way, none of which is identical to another, I would certainly hope a single spot in space and time could be described in an entirely different way than what FF has. Whether that is true or not, I think you hit the nail on the head with what it may imply about how we render FF’s poem. I don’t know that knowing the answer to that question is necessary to figuring out the poem, but I think it would greatly help as you have suggested. I often find, at least in my fields of interest, that in order to get the right answers we have to ask the right questions. So, I’m just asking. All IMO of course. And I feel like I am forgetting a thought I wanted to share so hopefully it will come back to me.

            -Ann

          • Ann, very impressive. (I would ask if you had all the prepositions needed for a solve in memory, but have to keep this chase relevant).
            You’ve also said, “in order to get the right answers we have to ask the right questions”.
            As obvious as that would be, it is so correct. There have been many write-ups of searchers that if they just used some basic policing of their solve, they would see their errors. Usually, searchers will start at a point and when they get to around the third or forth clue, don’t realize that anyone could have just driven to the third or forth clue, bypassing the first and second, which cannot happen.
            Your post reminds me of this ATF,
            “My question is… when the treasure was hidden, did you follow the clues just like they are mentioned in the poem or did you just go to where you wanted to hide it, knowing that the poem would lead someone there? Does that make sense? ~Tim

            Tim,
            I knew from the beginning where to hide the treasure. It wasn’t until later that the clues were provided to find that spot. I don’t know “…that the poem will lead someone there,” as you asked, but the poem does provide everyone with that opportunity. f
            He doesn’t know if the poem will lead someone there?
            Is he saying the words will not lead someone there, IDK. It seems so in this ATF,
            “Hello Forrest,

            If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?
            Thank you ~Nope
            Thank you Nope. Nope. f
            If the words will not do it, then the meaning of the words will not do it either, IMO.
            But, words have meaning, so to say that a searcher will not be going by meanings of words is a tough sell. Maybe it’s the thought about adjustment. Maybe the solution deals not with just the one thought, but many different scenarios. Misspelled words, sounds likes, abbreviations, meanings, etc…But when and where to apply, your guess is as good as mine.
            Like Seeker said, ” He constructed a poem to lead us all to a chest. He did not hide a chest based on a poem he constructed”.
            Hence he knew all along where he was going, before anything.
            Your question goes with the comment, will words have the same meaning 1000 years from now, keeping the chase fair to all? With his comment on the word “crean”, it doesn’t seem so, at least in f’s eyes. So, we cannot overlook the meanings, but a complete solve will not be based on meanings of words alone. It’s a good way to police a solve. Best of luck to you Ann, (I have to look up this answer to Pythagoreans Theorem using Euclid, I’ll keep aspirin nearby).

          • poisonivy,

            Thank you for the kind words. I happen to have a photographic memory and tend to remember quite a bit. Still, taking notes may prove useful!

            There is much that could be said about HOW to use the poem to get to the chest. Clearly, every searcher will have their own ideas about that. I believe it boils down to a matter of someone understanding the words in terms of how FF has used them to describe a place where he has hidden a chest.

            I myself write poetry. I also am an avid reader of poetry, though I tend to be picky. But in both writing and reading poetry, I often wonder whether those who may read mine will ever truly know what I meant when I wrote the poem(s), and similarly I wonder when reading poems someone else has written whether I understand the original and full meaning of the writer. The answer often tends to be that it’s one of those things that nay always be hard to know for sure. Even English majors and professionals study a particular writer or style before they BEGIN to understand the structure and intent and meanings. Perhaps that is where FF’s books come in handy. They are in some way windows into the author of the poem we are all attempting to understand. But, I also feel we may have to abandon our usual notions and familiarities with the words in the poem and seek out FF’s notions and familiarities. How do students become teachers? When they have learned the material well enough from their teachers and can do the same in turn for someone else.

            Personally, I wonder what the best approach is to all of this. We have a poem that describes a specific location in a bounded area. That means there are only so many places it can be. The scientist/mathematician in me says that it it’s a simple matter of deduction. Instead of trying to pinpoint such a small location in a large (initial) area, it may be best to figure out where the chest is not. The more space the chest can be ruled out of, the smaller the field of choices when trying to pinpoint a location using the poem.

            Now obviously I understand individuals want to solve this mystery all on their own, just as my fellow classmate wanted to do with Pythagoras’s Theorem. But, as I have also said before, collaboration with others tends to produce more results, if not at least quicker ones. That will be up to the searcher community though and not FF,

            Regarding Euclid’s proof of the Pythagorean Theorem, there was no complete version of the proof online when I had taken the class (otherwise every student in the class would have been able to produce an answer). But that was years ago and the information now may be more thorough. I believe his original proof is in his “Elements.” BTW I still have my text book from that class and without my notebook, which I have somewhere as well, the problem would be just as challenging to me today as it was then. An even more intriguing problem, at least to me, is the famed Goldbach Conjecture which remains unproved one way or the other. Now that’s a problem I’d really like to put to rest!

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Hi Ann: one of my pet math projects the last decade or so has been the perfect cuboid problem. Like the Goldbach Conjecture, it is has been around for centuries without resolution. With Goldbach, it seems obviously true, but maddeningly difficult to prove true. The perfect cuboid problem is different on that score: it’s not nearly as clear which way it will turn out. So far no one has been able to prove one does not exist, but if there IS one, then its smallest side will be a very large integer.

          • Zap,

            Interesting. I was not aware there was a search for such a figure. In briefly looking over the problem though, I wonder if some of my notes on Goldbach may not be relevant. I have studied Pythagorean triples to some extent and it appears obvious to me that if a perfect cuboid does indeed exist (and I am inclined to think that may not be the case based purely on first glance) then indeed Pythagorean triples would come into play. Perhaps I will take a closer look at this cuboid problem. Thank you for sharing.

            -Ann

          • Hi Ann: yes, Pythagorean triples are at the heart of that problem. And they provide the basis for excluding lots of cases — similar to how most of Forrest’s ATF hints are hints of exclusion (not below 5000′, not above 10,200′, not in Idaho, Utah or Canada, not in a mine, tunnel, cave or graveyard, not underwater, etc.) A perfect cuboid, if it exists, has many known features: it must have one odd side and two even sides; one of the even sides must be divisible by 4 and the other by 16, etc., all as a consequence of the rules of Pythagorean triples coupled with the geometry of the problem.

          • Zap,

            I would be interested to know the properties already deduced regarding the cuboid and why. I have done mush work with even and odd numbers as you can imagine and now I really must look over my notes on the Pythagorean Triples. I feel like there may be a proof by contradiction somewhere in there. I believe it rests in the fact that no Pythagorean Triples can have both sides with base 2. If that is an unclear statement I will clarify by saying that all Pythagorean Triples may be reduced down to a “prime” base set such as 3, 4, 5. And obviously the multiples of these bases are also Pythagorean Triples. I am not aware, however, of any triples with the ability to be reduced down to two even sides. I believe there will always be one odd side. I will have to check on that to be sure but that certainly would contradict one odd side and two even sides for the cuboid. Just some preliminary thoughts. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Hi Ann: just do a Wiki search on “Euler brick” and you will see all the known restrictions on the sides, face diagonals and body diagonal. These are the mathematical equivalent of Dal’s Cheat Sheet for things we know about the Chase.

          • Zap,

            Hahahahahaha!!! I did the search and found the page! Now I am CONVINCED no such cuboid exists without even reviewing my notes! I like the list of prime divisors under properties. I imagine that list will grow unbounded, as infinite as the primes themselves. It will likely boil down to the very nature of the triples themselves and an inability for one set of three integers to fulfill the basic criteria I previously set out. Perhaps if the cuboid were more fluid it would work. But the rigidity of solids is pretty, well solid. I thank you for bringing the problem to my attention. If I were you, I would focus on trying to prove it impossible by way of contradiction. To me, it seems just as obvious as the validity of Goldbach. Whether proving so is equally difficult I could not say. I will keep it on the back burner for now. Could be a fun question to resolve.

            With that in mind, it does make me wonder about the location of the chest in a similar manner. Is there more than one way to skin this cat? If I ask Schrödinger I will likely never know! But if I find a way to peek inside the box (and I considered using peak there instead) then I may be able to know a bit more than the light may suggest. Ah, but how to crack open the box to take such a peek. That is the rub of it all isn’t it? If only I had the right nutcracker for sure to split this “chest”nut wide open! Aren’t words wonderful? All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Zap,

            PS-

            I just realized that my “criteria” posted yesterday was in reference to two odds and one even. I was actually on the right write track when composing that and for some reason incorrectly corrected myself. Instead of the space diagonal needing to satisfy two sums of odd and one sum of evens it would just be three sums of odds. That’s three unique sets of odd squares btw. And therein perhaps lies the crux of the problem. Even numbers all have the good fortune of being based on a single prime number, two. But the odds do not. So not only would the squares be unique, but in order to fit the criteria they would need to be cross multiplied by the primes of the other odd squares. That would lead to some rather large numbers indeed! Is it possible? Not sure yet. But you are essentially talking about at least six unique sets of sums of squares all of which are also related. I say at least because when initially writing that sentence I wanted to say nine but couldn’t identify nine in reviewing what I was talking about. Three of those six are equivalent! And each includes one of the remaining three as one of its squares! The other square be the equivalent sum of squares!! What a mouthful! I think I could write a tongue twister on this!

            It is eerily similar to the multitude of ideas and approaches one could take to solving FF’s poem. But really there is only one solution, the one that leads someone to the chest! More food for thought for sure. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Ann-onerous…
            What does any of this Euclidean slash Pythagorean chitchat have to do with the color of tea in Santa Fe?

          • RonnyLee,

            If you’d follow the thread you’d know the answer to your own question: nothing. It’s a side conversation sparked by Zap and I as an illustrative example of whether or not the place the chest is hidden may or may not be described by a second person, using different words than those used by FF. Sometimes, searchers find out they have things in common other than the search. As for the color of tea in Santa Fe, that would likely depend on the tea, and optics of course, which Euclid and Pythagoras could describe for you mathematically. 🙂 All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Me, (laughing as I picture RonnyLee’s head explode, huh)
            Ann, you remind me of Jamie Jones, in a good way, keep up the good work.

          • poisonivy,

            Thanks!?! Not sure who Jamie Jones is, although there is a dj by that name. Anyways, thanks for the compliment. I try.

            And this stretch of the thread is getting WAY too long! All IMO.

            -Ann

        • Hey Seeker. I have gotten accustom to saying “path”, which may be an error. As I’m sure you know, the poem solve for me gives me a set of coordinates to go to. Meaning, I have the end spot before the start spot. Basically, see a “path” to get to that spot, and where I start is WWWH.
          I totally agree that a fair amount of the poem is done by “observation”. Even if most of the poem was just observing, at one point, a “path” to where you are going would be drawn.
          As far as I’m concerned, I have two measurements to consider, they happen to be the 7th and 9th clues. There is no need for other measurements because the “path” that one must follow basically takes care of that. Like saying we need a measurement from WWWH to the canyon, not exactly. It’s just the way that must be taken, and it just so happens that one is headed South into a canyon. In fact, I would say that most of the clues are “visual”, needing BoTG to actually know what f is referencing. I’m sure they have been there for a while. But, in tweaking the exactness needed, f would have to go to site, so I believe that some of the clues were actually done when he was on site. It just seems to be only obvious. Could f really, by memory, be exact? I don’t think so. I go to work everyday, but from memory, I don’t know how far in feet, or miles it is from my house to work. If I was to be that exact, I would have to document the exactness one day, meaning I would have to be on site, or be on the “path” I take.
          I’ve said before, I don’t think a searcher will be able to solve all the clues from home. There just are clues that one will be able only to see when they are out and about. There is no where that details WWWH, no where that details a blaze, and there is no where that explains the hoB. But once the whole poem is solved, the only important thing is that “x” it supplies, to me. The only thing that answers those things is the overall solve. In fact, I believe that it is possible to find the chest and never see the blaze, or not know for sure what hoB really is. To me, the whole hoB thing is f observing.
          So, to answer your questions, I would have to ask you a question first, lol,
          Are you sure you are reading the poem correctly?
          Is defining words the way to go? Is the whole thing centered around word meanings?
          Or, do we hear what he is saying? And take it to an even more specific level and to listen good? To not only hear the words coming from his mouth, but possibly words within words, or even better, the letters that make up those words?
          He did say to look up the words we use everyday,
          “Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f
          Does that mean to look up meanings? But with this question and answer,
          “In your dictionary, what’s an aberration? ~Serge Teteblanche
          I don’t have a dictionary but my personal definition is “Something different.” I like that word.
          When I was a kid there was a commonly used word. Crean, and it described the condition a car could get into when it ran into a ditch and the frame twisted a little, preventing the doors from opening. Modern autos are more sturdy so I guess that word was retired. I can’t find it anywhere now.f The take-away being that some words he used as a kid , he can’t find the meaning to anymore, does that same thought last for the next 1000 years? If someone 1000 years from now can’t find the meaning of a word, then they pretty much couldn’t solve the poem, if that is the way to solve the poem.
          Sooner or later, a path will be followed. I don’t doubt that we will observe, but in the end, we must walk a path. Please explain this a little more:
          “I don’t think it has anything to do with “writing” the poem”.

          • Hi poisonivey,
            Your statement “I believe that it is possible to find the chest and never see the blaze, or not know for sure what hoB really is” is very strange for any searcher. How it’s possible to extract TC without knowing what is the blaze? Of course, theoretically you can search some area with metal detector and suddenly find TC (Forrest said that metal detector can help if you are in right spot). But even it is 1 square mile spot it will take many years. Knowing what is the hoB should narrow this area at least to 500×500 feet. Then solving of other clues should narrow this area to 12X12 feet (IMO). I am sure that many searchers will agree with such algorithm of poem solving.

          • Andy, I hope so. When a solve of the poem is done, for me, I’ve found number values for letters. When plugging those numbers back into the poem, a nice little story unfolds, along with coordinates. These coordinates are the “x” on a map. I could then, from “x”, draw a path how to get there. The start point is my WWWH. That place, Anaconda Montana, has many hints that support that being WWWH. My path then leads me into a canyon, further into the forest, and so on. Along that path, since I’ve been out there, I notice clues along the way. They also have hints to support. I don’t see hoB as a clue because along my path, I don’t see anything that would be of reference. There are things that might be considered hoB, but nothing obvious. When I come to another set of coordinates I’ve found within the chase, I come upon something. There was something actually there, but it’s ordinary:
            https://ibb.co/gjJ3Cm
            Anyone could have done this, but, there are things to question. That “t” rock, why is burnt wood outside of the pit, why is it shaped like a 97, the “Y” stick there of the 7, and why did I find these coordinates.
            To you and many, this is nothing. To me, this is a picture of the blaze. As ridiculous as that may be, it’s a good one. The thing that comes to mind is that it can easily be destroyed. But that is not the case, the blaze in this picture would be tough to destroy. Also, first glance, nobody can see the blaze. I can now, but it took some time. It would be easy for searchers to walk right passed this spot and never see the blaze. But with the poem solve, which some clues are distances, from this spot, the rest of the clues gets me exactly to my coordinates. That’s where the 9th clue comes in. So, if you were to walk out there, and get to the spot, you may have not identified the blaze. No big deal, but had you identified the blaze, you would just know.
            So, as most searchers try to marry what they think are clues to a map, I’ve found a way to solve the poem, in which I’ve found a path, that when followed, will yield 9 clues. And, there is a ton of hints and ATF’s that support.
            So yes, IMO, it is possible to not see the blaze, (you may think you have, but not really), the hoB may not even be a clue, but there are things around that may reference it, and after 9 years, I could put up a pretty good argument of all things considered.
            Also, in that pic, I am facing Southwest, which is what line 17 breaks down for me.
            This is why I try to say to solve the poem. Nobody but f knows the clues, and an ATF even hints to the possibility that some may not have answers, and just looking at a map and finding some place that has coincidences is just ridiculous, but the opportunity to solve the poem is there. If the gist of searchers are trying to solve clues as you say, I wish them well, they only need to solve one, the last one, from what f has said, might as well forget the other 8.
            Find your niche for the POEM, and solve it, not trying to solve clues, a poem solve would solve clues anyway, right? I still feel, and maybe this was done on purpose, but the worst thing we were told was that there are 9 clues.

      • poisonivy,

        I’m pretty sure I understand what you have added and I would agree. Not that FF inserted measurements of feet or miles into the poem, which you are not suggesting, but that there are indeed directional (literal directions and not instructions) words which tell us which was to go. I also understand the difficulty in determining which words are directional, in the sense just mentioned, and which are instructional. I would not posit anything as being hidden in the poem. I think the only real hiding done is that as readers of the poem we look past the obvious. As the old adage goes, some things are right under ones nose. I think, from that standpoint I have to ask myself, where would the poem tell FF to go, or put another way, where is FF trying to tell us to go with the poem? All IMO.

        Keep up the good work.

        -Ann

  41. Free National Park Admission,

    Remember, remember, the 11th of November, the veteran’s season for free stuff. I know of no reason, why this veteran’s season should ever be rebuffed.
    Who knew there existed a long-lost verse of the poem documenting the rebellious exploits of Guy Fawkes that foretold of days when authentic Italian cuisine from Olive Garden would be made available, sans cost, in recognition of service to one’s country?
    From a limited menu, though. Let’s not get carried away. You think the Garden is just handing out free salmon piccata in honor of some fugazi Qatar deployment? Fuggetaboutit!

    As vets scour online listicles in search of some of these well-deserved Nov. 11 freebies, it’s worth repeating that an excellent offer has been and will remain on the table courtesy of the National Park Service.
    In partnership with the U.S. Department of the Interior and Fish and Wildlife Service, among others, the NPS continues to offer free lifetime access passes to over 400 national parks and 2,000 recreation sites nationwide to any veteran with at least a 10 percent disability rating.
    Vets can receive the lifetime pass on the spot at any federal recreation area where passes are issued by presenting a form of government-issued identification (driver’s license, state ID, passport, birth certificate) along with documentation proving a service-connected disability.
    For a $10 processing fee (which includes shipping), veterans can also order a pass online. But due to a backlog, online orders are currently expected to take up to four to five weeks to deliver once necessary paperwork is submitted. Snail mail orders can also be completed by downloading an application directly from the United States Geological Survey website.
    Veterans can prove eligibility for the lifetime pass by providing a Veterans Affairs Summary of Benefits, VA award letter, or documentation showing Social Security Disability Income.

    The pass grants access for a driver and any passengers entering a park in a non-commercial vehicle and includes a number of discounts on park amenities such as camping or guided tours.
    Active duty military, meanwhile, remain eligible for a free year-long version of the access pass, which includes the same perks, for that year, as its lifetime counterpart.
    Current personnel can apply onsite at any of the aforementioned locations by providing a military ID.

    So, go enjoy the great outdoors. Just don’t become the newest weekend safety brief example by falling into an active volcano or shooting a bear only to have it roll down a hill and topple you.

  42. Sloane wrote a book called legacy. It makes me wonder what a legacy the chase , is in and of itself, yet what’s the story of the legacy. the search community is as opinionated as Congress, but what of fenns words on his own legacy? Why hasn’t anyone asked him questions about that? Does he understand the gravity of giving so much and offering the chase itself?
    Ten years is along time and the effect itself my be hundreds of years if not longer….

    • I think:

      1) Mr. Fenn deserves more than a big round of applause.

      2) He deserves many thanks from many people for many years.

  43. The question I’m about to ask could fit here and perhaps TTOTC-The Book. I’ve chosen here.

    This is in regards to the chapter in TTOTC book where Mr. Fenn has tied Bessie’s tail to the stool so that he wouldn’t be hit and knocked off the stool. My question is, is it possible to be able to tie a cow’s tail to a stool? I’m curious to know if this can truly be done. I would love to know your thoughts, please.

    • Well, he did collect pieces of string. Two bowlines-with-a-bight on either end Of one ought to keep that tail from slapping. Necessity is the mother of invention.

    • It looks like the common practice today is to tie the cow’s tail to one of its back legs (spent a few minutes looking through a cow-milking chatroom just now!).

      The only picture I could find of a cow’s tail actually itself tied up was this Australian news article in which a cow accidentally tied its own tail around a tree: https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/country-living/back-paddock/cow-ties-herself-to-tree-with-tail-at-annaburro-station-northern-territory/news-story/216c6dae4d2d0b2cec0e54185b059d0b

      It looks like it would be flexible enough to do a loose knot maybe? I think RonnyLee’s idea about using a string or rope sounds good too.

    • In the early days….we all know f is getting up there ( not saying he is as old as dirt yet)…twine was used to tie bales of hay. Some made of hemp. These long pieces of twine were often saved and put to use to tie up other things and often tied up and hung in the barn. One of these would come in handy to tie a cow’s tail.
      Once while touring thru Navajoland I saw an interesting thing. Bailing twine was being used to tie the front leg of a Churro rams to the opposite hind leg to keep the rams from breeding.
      This info was supplied to resolve the mystery of the How Did He Tie Bessie’s Tail.
      IMO

    • Wisconsin Dairyfarm kid here.

      We milked a small herd through the mid-2000s using buckets. Not by hand, but bucket milkers that we then had to carry the buckets and dump in the bulk tank in the milkhouse. Cow tails can get nasty in a hurry if they aren’t brushed regularly. We were pretty good at keeping up on grooming our 42 cows, but you can’t catch them all before they go bad on you.

      I’ve certainly tied/attempted to tie off a few hundred cowtails in my years of milking to keep from constantly whacking me in the face. There are many ways to attempt it. The most efficient way is with a third hand, but if the tail is long enough you could even tie it around the cow’s leg, but the cow will not like this one bit! It will become very aggravated, just as Fenn’s cow did. This means it will show you its displeasure. Cows are very loving and very smart animals when treated well and cared for properly.

      A cow uses a tail for many things, including keeping flies away from her rear end and sensitive parts, everything back end, including udders and teats. They are far less likely to swish a tail in the winter, because there are no flies around.

      It’s hard to tie a tail off properly and usually it only lasts for a few seconds and then the cow kicks the milker off in frustration with the situation. Because I wasn’t milking by hand, I perfected holding the tail with one hand and affixing the milker with the other and then getting out of the way of the tail and moving on down the line to the next cow to clean and sanitize and prep her for milking.

      In Fenn’s case, he was hand milking and tried out a method that just frustrated the cow. He’d have been better off cutting the clumpy mess of hair or working slowly to brush it out, but with only one cow, I don’t know if he even had a cow brush. His idea is one every farm kid has tried at one time or another. The don’t hold long enough to hand milk a cow.

      The question I had of Fenn and his cow is how she was milking. He doesn’t mention a calf. A cow goes “fresh” (gives milk) after having a calf. They can do this for about ten months, but usually they are impregnated again and then “dried up” (you stop milking them) to fatten up for the calf inside to be nice and healthy (and also to reduce the chance of miking triggering an early birth. So basically, for every milking period of around 9-10 months, you’ve got a calf coming after a few months dried up.

      Were they using a bull to mate the cow? That’s dangerous, especially with the breed in question. (Brown bulls–Jersey and Guernsey and even Brown Swiss (which are physically more gray looking–are the most aggressive). What about the calves? I had so many questions that he didn’t answer in that story. You can’t just milk a cow indefinitely. On the other hand, maybe you could, if you only expected a little milk each milking, but I’ve seen them dry up on their own. No poor animal should be milked forever, but in the case of Fenn’s cow I’m sure it was treated quite well and practically a member of his family. Ours were. When cows have names and not numbers, you’re on a good farm for cows.

      This is all just my experience.

    • pd, I think he was just telling ‘tail’ tales. But then… some may suggest I’m partially a knot head. 🙂

  44. Oh, I think Mr. Fenn understands gravity. If his good friend wrote a book with this title legacy, he is sure to have pondered the word. It has occured to me that I may know more about Mr. Fenn than I do my own parents or grandparents and may have learned as much from. That to me is an amazing legacy. One could probably multiply the knowledge, thoughts, and feelings times 100.000 or so. Then down to their children, their grandchildren, and so on, and so on…

  45. Added a permenant page for Fennboree 2020. There is info there about this years Fennboree and it will be updated as we get closer…
    If you have questions about Fennboree there is an email link on that page that goes directly to Jamie who is coordinating Fennboree this year. She is the best person to answer your Bree queries….

    Look on the right side of this page under IMPORTANT INFORMATION to find the link to the Fennboree 2020 page..

    • Done !! its not alot its all that i could afford, but it would be nice to have some books like that, i dont even have my own TTOTC yet, ….i know…. GJ

    • Dal, I have a question. Have you ever suggested the title of a scrapbook? For example, the title to scrapbook 150 is “Forrest interview on NPR (posted by Dal). Did you come up with that title or was it suggested by Forrest?

      • John-
        Most likely I wrote the title on SB150 and not Forrest. As far as I can recall, I wrote all the text, including the title on the Scrapbooks that have my byline.

        • That’s interesting Dal. Is it possible that Forrest planted the idea of the title? The reason I ask is because I believe the last 120 or so scrapbook titles are anagrams. The anagram I come up with for Forrest interview on NPR is “Proven winners retrofit”. I’m curious as to why you didn’t title it Forrest’s interview on NPR. Had you done so the anagram wouldn’t have worked.

          • I think you’re trying to make something from nothing John…and I can’t say why I picked that title except that I did…

  46. Man, interesting. He went in winter, in a closed area, where a 79 or 80 year old could not go. Not well thought out. Although his heart seems to be in the right place and he seems to need a cause, one can not be a protector of all and bring an end to an adventurous life worth living. I live and work in ski country and we have many deaths every year. Four so far this year and they all happened just on the roads around the resorts. Most are from people hitting trees skiing, though helmets these days seem to help. Maybe the trees are to blame. Every time I have to help a family pack up and leave without one member I am so angry with the industry. But with time, every time, I realize that the industry exists because this is what people want and some need. Risk, reward is all around us it is up to individuals which of life’s challenges to try and concur. If one accepts the chase they are accepting nature, human and otherwise. I am so thankful for the chase, it is what I needed. g

    • ace 340 – I agree. Great post!

      I also live in beautiful, snowy mountains in Winter. We just had a local snowmobiler avalanche death, just 15 miles North of town here, near Baker Lake. I follow the forecast reports by our Sawtooth Avalanche Center daily. Their posts have reflected extremely dangerous conditions for several weeks. But adventure calls to some, who feel these extreme risks are worth taking. It is unfortunate that Search & Rescue teams are then required to take the same or even bigger risks to respond. I wish these adventure seekers would consider that, when making their plans. Maybe the example made of the errant Winter searcher in Yellowstone Canyon will serve that purpose? I hope so.

      • A lot of these search and rescue people along with all being great humans are doing it also for the thrill and adventure. They are the real deal. They train hard, go in at a moments notice, day or night, in unimaginable conditions, crazy dark whiteouts, and get the job done. It is what they do, amazing. I would fear them the most to find in my search area, along with that bear. The ones I know can just go and go and go. g

      • Lisa – you bring up another important point. That people should think not just about their possible fate when making a (IMO) not too smart decision, but also how they may be putting others, like the rescuers, in danger also. I understand that some people like living on the edge, but to your point, also think of all the consequences.

        On another note, we lost two snowmobilers here in Seeley on New Years day. The reports about the area stated it was a “high risk” day, but these guys decided to ignore that warning and it cost them their lives. So sad.

        • These snowmobiler deaths seem to be on the rise. It is probably the new machines. Man, ever been on one of these new souped up 800’s, you feel invincible. 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds. Hang on, one can find themselves in the wrong place very quickly. I get it though, It really is so much fun, so much that I won’t take it up as a sport. Same with kayaking. They both beckon for one to find their limits. But so fun. g

  47. This morning, if you were tuned into Dallas, Texas sports radio’s “The Ticket” you Would have heard announcers and callers discussing what people would most like to know the truth about: something that happened in the world such as JFK, Jesus, and one of the announcers brought up he wanted to know where Forrests treasure is!!

  48. Watched that video finally… Just A Few Observations: The parking lot bit was a huge hint. The getting lucky… 6–8 things… not only rings true for the poem, but also of his f100 mission & rescue… which are one in the same. One more tidbit for yall…. don’t mistake directions for clues. Oh, and from my POV, there is a cuboid… 4 8 15 16 23 42. Coincidentally, the antenna ch42 here is Quest. lol

  49. OS2,

    Talk about a mouthful of smiles and a blown lung of nonsense…Focused has some competition!

    I liked it so much, I’ma gonna read it again. Those old people talk funny! But the backstory/interpretations are rather interesting.

    Thanks OS2…

    ByGeorge

  50. There’s only one time of the day that has any bearing for all of us.
    The legacy is the poem. Line by line is a description of the events of August 24/25, 1968.
    PS- there’s a user on another community that now also knows of my blaze… the race is on!
    Giddy up!!!

    • One can keep a secret, Chrisazy. You seem to be quite committed to keeping
      one about what events occurred on August 24/25, 1968.

      As far as I’m concerned, the Fenn treasure hunt is not a race. I plan to leisurely walk to the hidey space during the summer of 2020.

      If you go there before summer, please expect snow and/or lots of mud. My
      favorite kind of pie is not mud pie.

      As always, all of this message is part of my opinion.

      • It’s well known he gets 100s of emails a day and has asked searches to stop emailing him.

    • Kedar’s Mom: I think what Kee was wondering is what prompted this post from you — today? The request to stop emailing Forrest came out months ago, so naturally one might wonder if something triggered you to post the reminder. It suggests you have more recent information that Forrest is still getting barraged with email (though that would not be too surprising).

      Since we might gather from Dal’s yearly stats that only a fraction of searchers visit his blog, or any blog for that matter, it would seem that the majority of searchers may still email him, quite oblivious to Dal’s request on Forrest’s behalf.

      • Zap, Just felt like it needed to be said. I do not feel the need to elaborate why. Respect your elders people.
        Feel free to spread this message elsewhere in fenn forums.

      • Perhaps Kedarsmom watches the ” celebrity” searcher vlogs on youtube. On one recent vlog they talked of how they still email Forrest with such burning topics as ” do you still have the backpack you used”. But of course they were quick to admonish viewers not to do what they do. LOL.

  51. After watching antiques roadshow couldn’t help but wonder, has anyone else thought of using antique roadshow as a reveal? If they find it I mean.

    • Chrisazy-
      Thanks…that was interesting…
      His “followers” seem a lot like some of Forrest’s “followers”…

      • Hi Dal: they are indeed. And I’ve been at Kryptos four times longer than The Thrill of the Chase. Both puzzles (and many others) attract OCD types.

  52. Off season pondering:
    3 Babe Ruth candy bars chasing Lewis and Clark.
    Babe Ruth’s # is 3 . Just an aberration, but I secretly hope that f stashed a Babe Ruth card in the chest 🙂
    I’m a Yankees fan and that would be just awesome.
    Hey, a gal can dream , right?

  53. I don’t look at this much until winter, so forgive me if this has already been answered. The demands of the old farm the other part of the year just don’t allow..
    Does FF have an alias he uses ? And where would I find the discussion on the sketches in TTOC? Or maybe someone would like to comment here.
    Would appreciate it.

    • Hi, Mosby – Here’s the link to the discussion thread focused on the book:
      https://dalneitzel.com/2017/11/21/the-book-2/

      Regarding specifically the sketches within the book, I remember Diggin Gypsy has shared a lot of her thoughts here. JeremyP also wrote up a good post a while ago about how one of the sketches may have been edited. Searching for both of their names on this blog might turn up some other good tidbits on the sketches.

  54. Good morning all.

    I wanted to post a question here to the search community. There were a lot of discussions on some thinking I posted on HOB that brought up some very good points about “specialized knowledge”. One of my solves revolves around HOB being Brown trout. Many augured that it’s highly unlikely that HOB refers to trout because those assumptions would involve specialized knowledge about where Brown trout would populate a river, what temps are best, etc. And they may be correct.

    But the question is: Where is the line between common knowledge and specialized knowledge? Isn’t it all relative?

    I think most people understand that tides come in and go out. Common knowledge. And yet someone who lives land locked, and who’s life does not revolve around tidal flows, may not be aware of this “common fact”. Does this mean we would consider this specialized knowledge? I’m sure the person who didn’t know would think so. My point being, what’s considered specialized to one individual may not be to another. Probably not the best example, (it’s all I could up with this early…lol) but I think you get where I’m going.

    I’m not sure I know where my line between the two is drawn yet, but would love to hear others thoughts. Thanks

    • Good Morning GG,

      I agree with what you are saying. In my opinion, the difference between common knowledge and specialized knowledge is the amount of education or training required to obtain it. Anyone who has fished for trout for any length of time should know where they live. Anyone who goes deer hunting should know where to look. This is not specialized knowledge. These are things I can look up on the internet and gain a basic understanding. When it becomes specialized is when I need to take a class or read a textbook to learn it.

      Of all the people who drive cars, not everyone knows how to change a tire. Yet it is considered common knowledge. Specialized knowledge would be knowing how to repack the wheel bearings.

      Just my thoughts.

      -Lori

      • Lori – We’re on the same page and I think you presented the thought a bit better then I. But somehow that specialized knowledge thing sure ( as Tall Andrew mentioned under HOB topic) ….fuzzy.

    • There is no such thing as specialized knowledge. There is only the amount of effort a person is willing to try understanding.

      • Not your average person has the specialized knowledge to fly a plane.
        Pilots have specialized knowledge.

        • Well, every kid who ever flew a Cox airplane didn’t seem to need special knowledge. Or does size matter. Did Skippy have specialized knowledge of flying? Was he trained….?
          Is mathematics specialized or do some have advance knowledge?

          I agree with muset… There’s a difference between the idea of special knowledge as to advance knowledge vs. training or education.

          It also seems like, since the comment about comprehensive knowledge of geography might help… 350,000 experts appeared over night.

          I still don’t understand the debate when we have Fenn saying the book should be enough to help the average person.
          And I believe he stated…we need to learn WWsH. Are we just supposed to not look up information we might not recall or known of if we feel the need?
          Fenn himself said while working on the poem he looked up words and discovered meanings he didn’t know were there… Is that special or advance knowledge?

          • Most of what Forrest says has at least two meanings or more. When he talks about marriage between the clues and the map he also mentioned matching each clue to a geographical location. Consider the knowledge needed for that alone. That’s your answer. Geography incompasses several fields of study. When you read TTOTC try to imagine the location of the chest as Forrest has descibed it in his stories. Each story has a hint about the location. As always IMO

          • Cox stringlines, they would definitely help treasure hunting, for inspired ideas and meditative thought.

          • Fly a Cox airplane?
            Specialized knowledge from Fenn’s brain should work.
            I think Fenn would consider being a pilot of his caliber would require specialized knowledge in many areas.
            Don’t forget about “theory” and “practice”.

          • Hi Jake,

            You might be confusing “specialized knowledge” with training and experience.

            A person can choose to specialize in some artisan undertaking, but that doesn’t require the plucky apprentice to understand any of it before setting out to achieve a master’s level of skill at it.

            But I think we can find common ground. I agree that nobody should need to be able to fly and/or land a plane to find the chest.

            Cheers and happy hunting.

    • Geyser Girl, I like the Name! IMO instead of wrestling with defining the meaning of Fenns intent or knowing his parmameters of common vs specialized knowledge, consider this; if you move out of the box just a bit, it won’t hurt to gain more expertise on a subject. After all, if it was as simple as many conclude, then why haven’t they found it? I say put the time and effort in that you believe is adequate to find the Booty. If people believe all they need is the poem and a map, then Good for them. Show me the Money!
      They like to Quote Forrest when it suits them but ignore other quotes at their own peril. Forrest has said many things. I believe all you need is; TTOTC, a Good Map and the poem. But there are confimers in his SB’s and Q&A’s. Just match them up with TTOTC. IMO

    • Geysergirl – I think you mentioned one of the grayest, fuzziest lines in the whole Chase, IMHO! I still don’t have a good idea of what is or what isn’t “specialized knowledge.”

      The guideline I try to go by is the idea that Forrest wanted to make the Chase something that the greatest number of people can enjoy. He likes the idea of the divorced, unemployed redneck with 12 or so kids having a chance to head out to the Rockies in search of treasure.

      From there it’s just kind of a gut feeling for me (wait, are gut feelings good?). If I learn some interesting new factoid online that was easy to look up, I feel that something like that could be considered to be helpful. If I find myself using something like genetic code to unravel a cypher, I’m probably a bit off in the weeds. For another example: I’d say learning the materials that make up bronze is not specialized knowledge, however Forrest’s secret technique for making screw-top jars out of bronze is. I’m just making snap-judgments without much hard evidence to back them up; your guess is as good as mine!

      • I wonder if the jars use pennies. If I were to try and replicate these jars or the box for that matter, it would be a way to recycle and reuse. Not certain on the jars lids as I have never seen one to gestimate how ta make it. (My bet it correlate to soda pop tops in shape or design…)
        Brian b.s.l.o.s.

    • IMO, if you have to “investigate” beyond just a couple of degrees of separation from the original word or concept you are trying to understand/clarify, then you have entered the realm of specialized knowledge. For example, most all of us learn about the states of matter around the second grade, so such is common knowledge, not specialized, and therefore applicable to TTOTC—however, when you start talking about the movement of quarks within an otherwise sedentary earth bound solid (which is still technically moving as the Earth revolves around the sun, our solar system revolving the Galactic Center of the Milky Way Galaxy, said galaxy expanding out into extragalactic space at about 600km per second, etc.), or how plasma is another state of matter, such becomes specialized knowledge. While I concede that a self-sustaining, everlasting ball of plasma existing somewhere out in the RM’s would be one heck of a unique Blaze, the poem purist side of me rejects such as highly improbable despite my ability to imagine such.

      I guess it all boils down to your personal tolerance, by FF himself told us to try and simplify (around the 7:23 mark in the video link below).

      https://www.youtube.com/watchv=KRHORDNXI6U&t=0s&index=31&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk

      • I guess the link didn’t work, so you can use the Tarry Scant website to find it—use the words “try to simplify” and it is the first result.

      • Bowmarc ~ *IMO, if you have to “investigate” beyond just a couple of degrees of separation from the original word or concept you are trying to understand/clarify, then you have entered the realm of specialized knowledge.*

        The language we speak [in this case English] isn’t always correctly used. We have comments; such as WordsSmith’s homework to look up the word “several” and see how most don’t understand the words we use everyday. Another was in a recent video with Cynthia and Forrest; he looked up words and realized he didn’t know what some meant by their definitions. And yet, another, when he talks about looking up words and definitions of words and changing them [words] to get the poem just right.. as well as a few other related comments over the years. Even when we’re told a “comprehensive knowledge of geography might help” Geography has a few different fields that affect the study… animals and people, plants, weather patterns and on and on. I mean, he didn’t say *simple or common* knowledge, right? Another point I’ll add; we’re told one good tool of GE “and/or” a good map.

        I find this interesting since GE is relatively new and images on GE don’t go back to 1988… Yet… many diehard mappers are into very old maps. IF GE only [“and/or”] is sufficient, how much historical or comprehensive knowledge is needed? Do we need maps of the Ice Age depiction?
        I think we create are own problems when thinking about what is specialized or advance vs. common or simplifying, and not listen to what has been suggested. Kinda the same idea of knowing about head pressures or Latin or codes and cypher etc. will not assist…
        Just for an example; IF something doesn’t appear on GE and only on an old map… what does that say for an attempt in a solve? Do we need maps of when territories were in place vs. states boundaries, line of thinking? In that case, I would consider that information as specialized because it is not on GE in any form. However, Plain English should cover all usages and definitions of words and phrasing of words.
        I mean, most of us would consider “few” to mean 3… but the definition is; more than one.
        “Creek” for example means; *a narrow or winding passage.* [ Merriam Webster ]
        LOL no mention of water, right? Or must we only use the *common*; water tributary meaning?

        Just investigating the degrees of possibilities….

        • Great Comment Seeker: Let me add just a touch of Salt. What is common knowledge to Forrest? I would contend he answered the question as it relates to his knowledge base, because after all, you have to be in the Fenn as they say. So common knowledge of the area you are searching, geographical in nature and then use your Imagination like a 13 year old boy. It’s pretty simple. I like the creek comment you made because that is the meaning he is referring to..IMO

        • We’ve had similar discussions in the past, Seeker, and your comments are always appreciated (at least by me…LOL).

          As I tried to link above, FF himself gave us as a CLUE when he said “Well I will give you a clue—–try to simplify if you can. That’s good advice.” This is found at around the 7:23 mark of that video.

          I don’t disagree that the English words are the basic building blocks of FF’s architected poem, and looking words up is allowable and in fact encouraged. I draw the line at investigating/researching them to the “nth” degree whereby I am getting a doctoral degree in both etymology and Latin. My reason(s) for such is that it requires too much study time and not enough recess out in the great outside. FF tells us (paraphrased) to read the book normally, read the poem over and over slowly & in a thoughtful manner, and then to read his book again looking for subtle hints to help with the clues. If I am doing a lot more research than following the process set before us by FF, I think I am off track because I am neither simplifying nor adhering to his solve advice. The ATF (paraphrased) regarding searchers overrating the complexity of the search by knowing about foot pounds and formulas and Latin and etc. etc. etc. is clarification/proof enough for me that FF was serious when he said to simplify.

          Yes, I am aware that the word “few” means more than one, so even when FF says “If the person reads the poem over and over and are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, they can find the treasure chest.” he can in fact be simply referring to the first two clues because two is more than one and an acceptable definition of his use of few. Such an understanding certainly peeks my attention, especially knowing what he has said about TLGFI.

          As to your wonderings about geography, I’ll say that in its simplest meaning, it is the study of the Earth. One step removed from this simple definition of geography is that such is broken down into 2 main parts, those being physical geography and human geography whereby physical geography studies the natural environment and human geography studies the human environment. You are a smart searcher, and know the ATF’s as well as anyone who has been at this a while, so you can see what this conversational point is ultimately progressing towards. Without belaboring it, if the simple definition of geography is the study of the Earth, and such is then broken down into 2 sub-categories of physical and human geography, and FF (and this depends upon your own tolerance level for variance) has said the whole chase has nothing to do with any manmade structure, for me, at least, such wipes out everything but physical geography AKA the natural environment AKA the great outdoors. With that said, since FF has set his TTOTC in the RM’s, and his goal was to get people out into the great outside, and he has said the poem is a map, and maps are the main tools of geography, for me the solve will develop the Blaze (yes, I am saying that the path FF needs us to follow precisely is THE BLAZE referred to in the past tense within the poem itself) of natural features for me to follow to find the chest. With that said, FF’s inclusion of GE as one of his 3 choices for excellent research materials is because GE is a map which I just stated is the main tool used in geography which FF tells us (paraphrased from several ATF’s) that having a comprehensive knowledge of might help us with properly interpreting his clues because the poem contains 9 of them and is a map.

          As to your creek definition, I’m OK with it being simply a narrow or winding passage without any water whatsoever because as I recently stated on the “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” page: “IMO, this is one of the instances of an aberration living out on the edge. The paddle in question has nothing to do with the creek, which can be as fast moving, dry, boulder ridden, etc. as you can imagine.” – Bowmarc 01/31/2020 @ 8:11am

          Also just investigating and discussing the degrees of possibilities…..

  55. Geysergirl wrote: “But the question is: Where is the line between common knowledge and specialized knowledge? Isn’t it all relative?”
    ————————————————————————

    In the context of this treasure hunt, specialized knowledge is whatever Forrest Fenn says it is. He has given us a lot of examples in a previous response; I won’t go into them here.

    Forrest has said he uses a dictionary, and dictionary was not one of his examples of specialized knowledge. So I think a dictionary is probably okay.

    Beyond that, I would stick to the poem, a map, and his non-confusing verbal comments. That’s it, no Thrill of the Chase, no scrapbooks, no heavy-duty internet research. However, minor look-ups using Google Earth, might help “confirm” some useful locational details. But for searchers who do not have access to the internet, Google Earth is certainly not required. If the internet had been required, Forrest would have said so; he didn’t.

    Back to brown trout >>> any knowledge of the behavior, characteristics, or location of this fish would be considered specialized, as would any internet-derived information on people whose last name is or was “Brown”. Such “knowledge” would thus be irrelevant to, and actually a distraction from, the treasure hunt.

    Geysergirl … I empathize with your dilemma. But to repeat what Forrest has already told us multiple times, everything a searcher needs to “know” about finding the chest >>> is in the poem.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • One person’s special knowledge is another person’s everyday life. Who gets to decide where to draw that line. I know people who can’t drive, so does the poem teach them how to drive to wwwh because everyone says it has everything we need in terms of special knowledge.

      Bottom line, we all took English, Math, Science, History etc…. in school. I can’t help it if people didn’t learn the material. Since school is a legal requirement for every person in the US, then Fenn isn’t asking too much for you to know your English, Math, Science etc…. So, that is not special knowledge, but something you had to take. When this is all done, he might shrug his shoulders and repeat the line I just wrote above. You did take those classes – right? Even the red neck in Texas is required to take them.

      BTW – Fenn did rule out History, so we get to ignore that. But did he rule out math, science, english, geography…. and all those other classes that every single one of us searchers had to take? Attendance in those classes wasn’t optional, so they aren’t special if 99.9% of the population took them.

    • Memorizing the poem helps too, there’s not any inner net away from town.
      Paper didn’t help much when it got rained on.

    • Ken {TX} ~ *Google Earth is certainly not required. If the internet had been required, Forrest would have said so; he didn’t.*

      I’m picking up whatcha puttin down… But is it that simple?
      I mean, fenn himself made it a type of requirement by making it *equal* to conventional maps. The question is: Why did he deliberately mention GE?
      My explanation to Bowmarc’s [above] comment, in part, relates to the idea that “GE and/or a good map” means either or.. or equally useful. However, GE is a recent tool with limited info available, such as; information of different boundaries and borders, states, territories, roads, names of places, etc. during it short time vs. maps.
      Knowing this about GE, in comparison to old {older?} mappings; does it imply that a mapping tool doesn’t need to be of the 1800’s [for example]?
      I mean, if GE is an *equal tool* to paper maps [regardless of who it is available to], I would think those *differences* would have an impact on how someone would look at those tools {age of the tool, specifically} “geographically speaking.”

      Note: most of the difference relate to the short list above in-regards to labels of a map.
      Which bring me to another point. I’ll use a well know location; Earth Quake Lake; It does show on GE and later maps… and the event took place in 1958. With that simple knowledge… does that change GE as a good reference to utilize IF a clue’s reference might work with that event? A 1957 or earlier would not show the affect of that feature changing event, but GE would.
      My main point to the conversation is; Did fenn’s comment, by deliberately adding GE give pause to how old of geography knowledge is needed when we look at any mapping tool? {should a clue be of this type geographical change} and related to the idea; *most* of the clue’s places existed when he was a kid…?

      GE may not be *required* because of your explanation of availability… However, fenn made it clear of it being *equal* to convectional style mappings. That is something to ponder when we look for information on any mapping tool available to anyone, in my mind.

      • Since the treasure was hidden decades after Quake Lake was formed, FF would be aware of the difference in features from when he was a boy. Therefore, I do not think any maps older than the date the chest was hidden would be of any benefit.

        Remember, he did not write the poem when he was a child, even though his secret spot may have existed, even under a different name. I am certain FF’s clues would reference the locations as they were at the time he hid the chest. And that could be part of the reason the poem had to be changed so often.

        Just a thought.

        – Lori

      • I think we need to remember who f directed the chase to. Brown trout might not need “specialized knowledge” from a local redneck..
        Would “camping” be considered specialized knowledge, or training? How about your average redneck with thirteen kids and a pick-up? Compared to a “city” slicker?
        GG, if your solve has Brown trout a reference for hoB, nobody here can answer if that is right or wrong. Only f can answer that for you, or you finding the chest. If you solve certain parts of this chase, even if you have your doubts, you should keep the thoughts alive in your notes, because really, nobody knows but f. The answers may just be the most ridiculous things we could think of or discount, who knows…

  56. Planning a trip to Yellowstone. Just figured out there’s a town called west Yellowstone in West Yellowstone. Just wanted to share that, it was new to me.

  57. Ken (inTX) and all.

    Ken you state: Geysergirl … I empathize with your dilemma. But to repeat what Forrest has already told us multiple times, everything a searcher needs to “know” about finding the chest >>> is in the poem.

    Forrests actual quote was: “Emily, all the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.” (From Tarry Scant….sorry, the link didn’t work for me)

    The way I see it is all the “Information” IS in the poem, just not the solutions. 🙂

    The information: Begin it WWWH
    The solution: For you to determine/solve. And I’m not sure how you find a solution to many of the clues/riddles without some research. JMO

    I think the bottom line to this all is, once again, it’s another way Forrest uses words to throw in a wrench. Each and every thought has valid points and we could go around in circles forever! So I think I’ll make this my last post von this subject.

    The conclusion for me is that I’m just not going to worry about whether or not I think something is specialized knowledge. I’m just going to explore ALL the plausible options and roll with the ones that work with a particular solve. Hopefully I don’t roll down too many rabbit holes! LOL!

    Thanks all!

    • Bravo! I agree . I don’t believe too much information is detramental to success, it all depends on how it is applied to solving the poem. The poem speaks for itself and the book TTOTC is IMO the blueprint for solving the starting point as well as the end result. Remember don’t just focus on the ants when there are elephants in the neighborhood. 🙂

    • Yes, ‘Everything you need to know to find the treasure is in the Poem”….. but the sentence immediately after the poem in TTOTC is: “There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.” hmmmmm. OS2

  58. Hi Guys,

    I was just wondering what your thoughts are on Forrest doing another six questions on MW on the 4th February ?

    I know that he said last February 2019 that it was going to be his last six questions, but having done four questions on the 6th January this year I wouldn’t be surprised if he done another six questions this year ?

    6 questions on the 4th February = 10
    10th year since Indulgence was hidden.

    10/2020

    It’s just the way my mind thinks.

    b

    • No need for that. Everything searchers need is in the poems. Forrest should take a vacation in sunny Florida. May I suggest Treasure Island on the Gulf Coast. Leave your smartphone and laptop at home. Send me the bill. Forget about answering more questions, IMO. Relax.

      • I agree with Mr. Obvious that everything we nee is in the poem. While the poem is to be followed contiguously, there are many hints scattered through TTOTC. We have to do the research (geology, history, etc) It is all there. BEC also makes a good point, in that most of Forrest’s clues/meanings have at least two possibilities. IMO!

        I know that when I have thought I have found a clue, I dissect it multiple times and try and find faults in my hypothesis. I learnt that from my 1st BOTG, otherwise I am wasting my time though it did get me to within 75 miles of my current search area which I will be returning to in spring.

        Also for anyone thinking that searching in winter please be careful. i did one in the beginning of dec with only a few inches of snow on the ground. Going in was easy but if you are intending on bringing out the chest the extra 42lbs. changes your footing completely. Bring a friend you can trust and/or a good set of hiking poles at least for stabiltiy /share the load. I simulated by adding some rocks to back pack (they were soon removed as they tend to throw ones balance off in anything other than ideal conditions).

        Enjoy the winter, do your research and maybe a warm vacation ( doing something different for a week is good for some of us OCD types)! Be ready for spring/summer 2020 and enjoy the outdoors, maybe if someone is lucky enough to find the treasure this year we can all celebrate together at Fennboree!! Of course these thoughts are IMO!

        Ciao!!

  59. To All-

    A very busy Friday here! I will not respond to anyone specifically for the moment but I would like to add something (more likely repeat something already once said) here if I may.

    When I consider what it takes to find the chest, I wonder what someone 1,000 years would need if they happened upon a copy of the book, which has both the poem and a map (perhaps THE map) in it. I also keep in mind what maximizes the searcher population. Things like GE are most definitely not available worldwide. And I imagine not too many people in the large population of India have as much as access as say people here in the states. I also keep in mind that I don’t think FF intended the search to be limited to the educated only, whether that be academically, the life of hard knocks, military training, backwoods knowledge, etc., etc. I am also of the opinion that the deeper one dives into rabbit holes and degrees of connectivity the further one gets from the plain language of the poem and the intent of its meaning, and frustrates the search by creating unnecessary offshoots. Another way to look at it perhaps is this: imagine FF hands you a sealed 500 piece puzzle and asks you to put it together. What would be needed in order for you to accomplish this? Well, quite literally the 500 pieces (the clues in the poem), perhaps a picture of the end result (a map) for guidance (although not absolutely necessary in the case of the puzzle), some concept of how the pieces fit together (colors and shapes) and time to actually put it together. Now, I realize this may seem like a very simplified analogy but I hope it illustrates the point. FF has hidden a bronze chest and given us a poem and map printed in a book to find it. If I am the architect of a treasure hunt, I should be required to give the hunter everything they need. Anything less would prove an impossible task, And as a final remark, everything FF has said since the release of the book while interesting, is not necessary for figuring the whole thing out. Does knowing the chest is between 5,000 and 10,200 feet help? Sure. Was it necessary to know prior to FF stating it? No. He has spent the last ten years trying to respectfully answer curious minds without giving away anything to the benefit of the hunters. To do so would defeat the very purpose of the tools he initially provided and nullify the need for those searching to figure out the mystery he lay before the world 10 years ago. We do not ask the puzzle maker to come over and complete the puzzle for us or show us how it is done. We either figure it out or let it sit in the box for someone else to enjoy. So while I appreciate the camaraderie of the community of searchers, I would hope that we would not lead each other astray or quibble over the mundane or convolute the daunting task at hand. Until someone actually finds the chest there is no best approach method that we should all undertake. It seems to me that the variety of approaches is something that can be learned from and over time perfected, or at least vastly improved. Perhaps some are too caught up in competing to be the first to figure it out. I’d hope we could all learn a bit from one another because none of us is any closer than another to actually finding the chest (to any degree of certainty that is) and none of us knows any more than the next (whether we’ve been at it since the beginning or just got here) in terms of absolutes and certainty in solving the mystery. I for one, am grateful to those of you who have been at it much longer than I and have been keeping track of the information exchanged. It has helped to fill me in and gain a better sense of where things stand. I look forward to someone, anyone really, finding this chest and the puzzle being completed! I’d like to glance at the final picture when it’s all said and done. It’d be nice to see what FF saw when he put all this together. All IMO.

    -Ann

  60. Above, Geysergirl wrote: “The way I see it is all the “Information” IS in the poem, just not the solutions.”
    ———————————————————————- When Forrest was asked: “Does somebody need to read your book [TTOTC] to find the treasure or do all the clues exist within the poem? Forrest responded >>>

    “They don’t need to read my book [TTOTC], but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.”

    Ergo, my advice is to not rely on TTOTC as a crutch. If a searcher can’t find the chest location using the poem alone, it’s not likely that said searcher will do any better with using other, extraneous sources.

    And to BEC, who followed up with his comment that he doesn’t believe “too much information is detramental to success …”, I most strenuously disagree. Too much information contributes to unnecessary complexity and distraction.

    The poem alone contains the solutions, and therefore the location of the chest. No outside resources or heavy-duty “research” is needed.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • You can read the book in one day. How could that information make it more complex? In fact, in your Quote from Forrest, he said it would help. You seem to be a poem purest who hobbles himself for no apparent reason. Why climb a ladder when you can take an elevator? Like I said, people pick and choose only one quote from Forrest and ignore the rest.
      Forrest also stated:
      “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f. Why would he say that if the book would make it more complex? Why limit your self?

      Good luck with just the Poem, it won’t be found with just the poem in a million years, in my opinion.

      • Bec.

        I see both side of the book helping or the poem.
        I think in many cases… the book can be very confusing.
        For some, there are hints in every chapter, every page, every pic, every illustrations, misspelled words, missing page numbers, dates, amount of fish caught, which car was used, how many time did fenn go barefoot, or how much fuel did his plane hold, and some using electron microscopes to find hidden hints and lemon the pages for secret messages under a blue light …. and then combined over 200 plus SBs…. well, I lost count at over 500 hint-able subject possibilities, while attempting to find the 9 clues we are told we need.
        ~What’s black and white and red all over?
        How many hints are in this riddle?
        How many key words of importance?
        How many clues can be discovered?

        Read the poem over and over… then read the book slowly. IMO the idea might be more about having an idea of the poem’s layout [or more recently ~ the story behind it] long before grabbing handfuls of dust just because we can make our own journey the way we want it to be.
        Then look at the book for those idea that lay on the edge of thought.

          • RULES? I don’t need no stinking rules! lol
            I’m a product of the American Education System… Skool never did much for me.

            Me and Sally went searching…
            Sally and I went searching…
            Sally and me went searching…
            Sally, Jane, and me went searching with Spot…
            Sally and Jane and I went searching with Spot…
            Spot searched with us, Jane, me, and Sally…

            Guess who Dick is…

        • I spent a year just moling over the poem again and again without the book. I wound up in Dinosaur National Monument. Its no where near there but it’s a Pretty Place. I’m not claiming others need help by doing it my way. I just know for me that large amounts of information can be categorized. Some useful, some not so useful. I have an analytical brain and have done tons of research in my life. Reading the Book is like reading a Children’s Book. If I told you there were hints in there and Forrest has said that as well, then why wouldn’t you want to read it, is all I’m saying. To each their own, but Mr. Ken from Texas seems to think its detrimental. That’s just down right nonsense, IMO.

          • Bec,

            LOL I never said not to read the book… I just explained that is can be more a hindrance, confusing, if we go looking for those hints upfront. I lean toward the idea we need the poem to give us thoughts of what we might see, understand, when we pickup on a hint in some manner.
            Otherwise… everything seems to be a hint. I guess I’m saying; folks think the answers should be within the book as hints. I think the hints may fine-tune a thought process of how the poem is read correctly… which might be better understood by how the poem explains itself [for lack of a better term].

    • I disagree, Ken. You said these two things-

      – “They don’t need to read my book [TTOTC], but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.”

      – Ergo, my advice is to not rely on TTOTC as a crutch. If a searcher can’t find the chest location using the poem alone, it’s not likely that said searcher will do any better with using other, extraneous sources.
      —————————-
      You also followed up the last comment by saying “Too much information contributes to unnecessary complexity and distraction.”

      With f’s statement, I’d say the important question for each searcher to ask is do I need help with the clues in the poem?

      If not, prove it. If not, how long are you gonna keep telling yourself that you don’t need help with the clues? You gonna keep telling yourself that for 20 years or more? Time is ticking…

      I see it as ignoring, or not understanding, the obvious when others say all the extra information in the book is gonna add unnecessary complexity and distraction.

      The poem obviously does that to a huge degree in itself. The nature of how hints and clues work together. is universal. Hints are easier to solve then clues. I think f knows this and was able to pull that off in how he designed the Chase. He says it every time when he says if you need help with the clues…

      So, that is why wading through more information can be more beneficial than not looking for the hints.

  61. What if … you think you discovered the treasure location beyond a shadow of a doubt, but then you read the poem one last time for good measure and … in being WISE, there’s that one last twist that sends you back to where you started? And this time you could for the first time see the reason for a sandwich and a flashlight … and for ALL to seek. Huh? You’ve got to be kidding! Now there’s a reason for f to laugh out loud.

    • If something is sandwiched between two Rocks you may need a flashlight. Just like the agate rock in Forrests pocket with a peice of Sand paper making his Marbles in Spanish class with Miss Ford and the brown Rusty old fire slide…hmmm , I wonder where that could be…

          • Yep…I know what you are saying…However…Listen to what Mr f said…

            – People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight. Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues?

            FF: They certainly are not clues.

            Please Note…he did not say it is not a “hint”.

            We all know the difference between a hint and a Clue.

          • Rich,
            The original Q&A was about needing anything… Like a shovel or backhoe… In the reply he said a sandwich and a flashlight… Somewhere down the road he mentioned a flashlight would be a good idea in case your out after dark.
            Imo… This is showering with jeans on concept.

            However, I’m curious to how those two items can hint to information that could help a clue.
            Both items suggest time being involved.

            What do they mean for you?

          • Hello Seeker. I like your thought about time. What about just the simple thought of the two items suggesting being prepared while being out and about?

          • Hi Seeker,

            I assume the comment you made to Rich is actually @ me.
            I am not sure of which original comment you are referring to however SB 167 is not about needing anything.
            I will not post anything about why I believe a sandwich and flashlight may or may not be a hint on here however if you would like to exchange emails then I will let you know why.
            Dal you have my permission to give Seeker my email address if Seeker ask for it.

          • PD,

            Personally, I think Fenn was telling us we won’t need any tools to find the chest. The additional items food and light are nothing more than common sense items.
            LOL, but as you know… And Fenn does too… Everything he says becomes a clue.
            Even all the “useless clues”

          • I concur, Seeker. I’m guilty as charged, not to the sense I believe everything he says is a clue, but something written that seems a bit off makes me take a doubletake.

        • If you’re searching in the high mountain desert then you’ll only need a flashlight because of all the sand which is there.

    • When I think of “flashlight” in the context of this treasure hunt, I think of a thing that is “ours”. When I think of “sandwich”, I don’t as much think of it as being “ours”, even though it can be enjoyed about as much by one person as by another.

      Regarding “sandwich”, I remember seeing a comment by a searcher who mentioned that FF specifically said “sandwich”, instead of “food” or “something to eat” or “a snack”. That comment had me thinking about FF’s word choice, as if there may have been a small hint in it. I think there was.

      As always, IMO.

      • FF lives in the desert.
        People in the desert do not go hungry.
        They can always eat sand which is there.

        😛
        – Lori

        • Good one. But (believe it or not) I don’t think the hint was about a
          desert being nearby . . . although it is. All IMO.

      • Andrew,

        I am thinking FF suggested a flashlight and sandwich in case your search takes you into dusk. Also the notion of taking food, a sandwich perhaps, may be indicative that hiding the chest took FF at least long enough to cover one meal for the day. Just some initial thoughts on those remarks. All IMO.

        -Ann

        • Hi Ann: sharing this with you because it dates back to the beginning of the Chase, and so you probably have never seen it. (Richard’s blog is wonderful, btw — well worth reading.)

          Richard writes: “‘Take a sandwich.’ When I first heard this clue I said to myself, ‘This is really going to be easy. You get up in the morning, have breakfast, go out looking, find the treasure, eat your sandwich and you are back by dinner.’ Not the case. ‘Sir Conan’ Dal (lummifilm.wordpress.com) almost always takes a sandwich and he is still out there looking. Nevertheless, this one remains a good clue because of what it doesn’t say. For example, it doesn’t say, ‘Take a tent, a bedroll, a change of socks and food for eight days.’ It’s a sandwich—just a sandwich although you might want to consider taking pepper-spray along if your sandwich resembles a freshly made Egg-McMuffin™ and you are taking it into bear country. Bears love Egg-McMuffins™ as well as Southern Baptists and Young Republicans.”

          Link: https://mountainwalkdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/06/19/more-clues-from-forrest-create-chaos-among-the-faithful/

    • Maybe he brought his little hot – dog with him. A sandwich can be a Fishing Lure. Depending on the hatch at the time. Many fisherman actual would use the actual sandwich while others would make a sandwich lure of various components. Especially with the Brown drake hatch you need a flashlight at Dusk. That’s a Good Combo and a HOB

    • LOL – I say, you take your honey or your dog and go.
      And since you have no idea how long you will be gone, you grab that flashlight just in case. Sometimes it’s pretty dark out there at night. Wouldn’t want to stumble over anything or leave anything behind.

  62. I wondered if there was a name for today… Like a mirror of numbers day or something. Palindrome. Interesting.

    • There is now. I hereby proclaim it to be Punxsutawney Phil Day.

      I’m gonna try to go through the whole day without using any capital g’s.
      It might not be easy. All in my opinion, don’tcha know.

      Your mileage may vary. gee.

        • Hi Lisa: are you sure you’ll be able to safely traverse the Madison before summer begins? Spring runoff is quite high in May and June.

        • I’m going with PunXsutawney Phil. We also have the 49er gold miners v. Kansas city Chiefs. I’m rooting for the arrow of time.

        • Zap – We crossed the Madison River at Baker’S Hole successfully last year on Memorial Day Weekend. It’s all about the fly fishing:

          https://www.outsidebozeman.com/activities/fishing/mythical-madison

          When is the best time to fish the Madison River? Whenever you can. Maybe the owners of Campfire Lodge bought a new canoe we can borrow?

          I think I read that a large percentage of the flow of the Madison River below Madison Junction is from the thermal features along the Gibbon and Firehole. I don’t believe Spring runoff contributes much to the flows at Baker’S Hole.

        • Zap – Our Memorial Day Weekend 2019 destination was the Firehole River along Canyon Drive on Opening Day:

          “Some of the best early season fishing opportunities in the park can be found along the Madison River and its two primary tributaries: the Firehole River and the Gibbon River. These fisheries are located near the park’s west entrance and are go-to destinations for most of our guide trips in the park. The Firehole is a popular opening weekend destination for anglers, and for good reason – flows are typically moderate and it’s a fairly safe bet that trout will be found rising to hatches of both caddis and baetis in the classic meadow water above the falls. Below the falls on the Firehole anglers may still find a few large, holdover fish that migrated up from Hebgen Lake during the fall spawning run. These fish can be taken on large stonefly nymphs imitating the giant salmonfly, a hatch that occurs in early June on the lower Firehole due to its thermal influence.”

        • Lisa: do you have a satisfactory explanation for why Forrest took two round trips from where he parked his car *if* he utilized a canoe or raft at any point? It’s nearly the same counterargument as the trail horse situation.

          • Zap – I did a play by play solution for all of that, here on Dal’s, previously. Can’t find it now.

            I believe Forrest tied his dinghy to the tree in this post:

            https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/04/scrapbook-two_hundred-nine/#comment-812964

            I believe he made two trips to/from his Sedan at his campsite at Baker’S Hole, that final afternoon of his 3 day ‘walk’ from his put in at Cable Car Run, to hide the bronze chest. Still wearing his waders and carrying two identical backpacks. Then he used the gear on his dinghy to camp overnight at my hidey spot, to enjoy the sunset from there; thinking about his original plan to end his life there. Or, he just packed his dinghy and camping gear into the Sedan and drove away after. Or, he camped overnight at Baker’S Hole after at his campsite.

            It all works. IMO.

  63. Groundhog Day 2020: Punxsutawney Phil Predicts Early Spring ! So since spring will be early this year, that means treasure hunting will start right on time! Perhaps we could start April 1st.

    • Wiarton Willie
      Wiarton Willie is a prognosticating groundhog who lives in the town of South Bruce Peninsula in Ontario.

      According to his website, he is the “most famous groundhog in Canada and the only albino weather prognosticator in the world.”

      This year Willie predicted it will be an early spring.

      “With cloudy skies and snow falling upon us this morning in #Wiarton it was very hard to find my shadow – even with all the camera lights around!” he wrote in a tweet.

  64. As Forrest has said many times – “don’t mess with my poem.”
    That to me means, take it VERY LITERAL – don’t change the words, don’t assign offbeat definitions to the words, and last but not least follow his words closely.
    They (words) may not be in the order we expect them or in the way we would normally apply them but hey – who knows how they flow through his mind and where they lead.

    • wwwamericana ~ *don’t assign offbeat definitions to the words,*

      Define Offbeat… to a definition.

      Are not all “definitions” of a word not a usage of any word?

      • If you are digging in a dictionary to solve Forrest’s poem, you are digging too far, IMHO. But everyone has their cross to bear.

    • I’m not sure LITERAL is the accurate word. He also said imagination is more important than knowledge.
      I think you need some imagination to solve the clues.
      For me, Don’t mess with my poem, means don’t change it in any way. And I think that applies to hints he has dropped afterwards, such as in tight focus on a word that is key, which has been more commonly been stated as the key word. A re-phrasing like that changes the interpretations.
      Remember, he felt like an architect when he wrote that poem.

      And he has warned against ignoring any part of the poem. Which is why I have always had an issue with the idea of nine clues. My solve has the nine clues contained in about half of the poem, starting with begin and ending with cease, so what is in the other half? Why would the rest of it be any less important if we are to not ignore it?

      • Why would the rest of it be any less important if we are to not ignore it?

        No one said we are not to ignore the rest. A re-phrasing like that is dangerous which above you say shouldn’t be done.

        • I don’t ignore any of it. All of it is equally critical to me.
          I was trying to warn against changing the poem in any way, or ignoring any of it that isn’t in your nine clues.
          I am as bad at wordsmithing as FF is good at it. So I don’t blog much.

      • I had to make sense of the poem too. Mine was like directions, but in a funny order and if someone messed with it it would’ve messed it up. It’s imagination like Stephen Hawking describing tea-cup theory. What happens in forward can happen in reverse but needs to be absolutely precise, kinda like deja-vu except that in reverse order there is the option for transition.

        • I tried to explain this to an intelligense group once because it also is the same logic of infinite/infinity and math is absolutely meaningless in such an alternate universe, but to no avail. Nobody like talking about imagination and it’s complications in adultland.

  65. For YNP searchers-

    I realize there is a great deal of focus on YNP for several solves. I think I understand this is because of FF’s obvious connections to YNP. I have recently been discussing the mode of transportation FF used in hiding the chest as well as the length of the journey he took to do so. I am curious to wonder, for those who believe the chest to be in YNP, where did FF begin the chest hiding trip? And how did he get to YNP? Also, based on your thoughts regarding these two questions, how long do you estimate the hide took? And as a final matter, concerning any potential solve and not just those in YNP, why do you suppose this (meaning your answers to the questions asked here) to be the case? I think these questions are important when considering where the chest is likely not to be hidden as well as where it possibly could be hidden. I look forward to everyone’s thoughts. All IMO.

    -Ann

    • I believe he visited the Center of the West in Cody or his friend Alan Simpson sometime in late June or July in 2010. In Wyoming. He would have drove from Santa Fe, I believe and stayed a few days. I don’t think he flew. It would have been in conjunction with an event at the Buffalo Bill Museum. IMO. I believe he took a bottle of Tabasco with him as well….

    • Ann-
      When Forrest gave up piloting his own plane and sold it. He was still on the Board at the Museum in Cody. Sometimes both he and Peggy traveled to Cody for Forrest’s Board meetings. Sometimes he went alone. As long as he was going up there for a meeting that lasted all day he spent a day or two extra to visit and fish. When Forrest was flying, he flew there. After he gave up flying, he drove. My best research tells me this is true.

      They also had friends around Jackson and Cody that they visited. When Forrest made the trip to Cody he sometimes took his friends to show them his old haunts in Yellowstone National Park. He also went out to Yellowstone on his own to get a little fishing in. Research backs me up on these events as well.

      So, according to my research, Forrest was in and out of the Yellowstone area right up to the point that he resigned from the Board in Cody and often stayed a few extra days when in the area to visit friends and to see if the fish had learned anything since he was last there.

      I believe that at least on one of those trips…and most likely more than once, after his meeting in Cody,Forrest stayed near Hebgen Lake. From there he was close to his fav fishing spots.

      From either Cody, Jackson, West Yellowstone, West Fork Cabins or Hebgen Lake, with a rented sedan from the airport or his own vehicle that he drove up from Santa Fe it would be easy to spend an afternoon hiding the chest. He could have hidden it in or outside of the park.

      None of this is compelling evidence that he DID hide the chest in that area. But it does keep me from ruling the area out…a big area…

      I see no reason why he couldn’t have gone alone in there with his treasures bold and kept his secret where he hid them, making two trips in an afternoon from where he was staying nearby.

      • Dal – You’ve really pulled together some thorough information on Forrest’s travels during the hiding period! Thanks for sharing this!

        You make a good argument for YNP and surrounding areas, but I just wanted to mention that if Forrest used one of his usual trips to Cody or to see friends in the area, and had a couple of “fishing” days to himself after social/business obligations were taken care of, he could have easily hopped up to Montana & the Canadian border and back before driving home OR left the YNP area immediately and took the scenic route back through select areas of WY, CO, or NM over the next couple of days.

        I think your idea of how Forrest used his usual travels to cover his hiding of the chest is highly probable; I just think that this timeline doesn’t do anything to narrow down the possible hiding spot for me.

        I will admit that he would have probably had a much easier time slipping away to hide it in the YNP area.

    • Ann, my perspective is that he hid the chest in one day. Drove off from Santa Fe early in the morning, got to the area around noon and had lunch. Drove to the spot, walked twice to hide the chest and contents and that took no more than 2 to 3 hours and then drove back to Santa Fe that same evening/night. That is how an 80 year old would do it.

      In that recent interview at his home he said, “people make a big deal out of MT, WY and northern CO but they are overlooking NM”. Just like the original information available was ‘In the mountains north of Santa Fe’. There is always an undertone to what he says, like for many years the only thing we knew was that ‘he wasn’t ready to say the chest was not underwater’ but then came out (last year I think) and explicitly said it was not underwater. Same interview when asked about the word that is key, he plainly says “there is a word in the poem that will help more than the others”.

      So time and time again there is that struggle between what he hints to and what we want to believe it isn’t so.

      • Oz – I wanted to say that, but I couldn’t put the words togather . im glad you did – that was a very good comment – and I agree with every thing you said — frank

      • Oz,
        Yep, I agree….
        In the same interview and in the OH interview he tells of looking up words, their definitions not knowing what some meanings were… And the poem came out just like he wanted.
        The same principle about overcomplicating by knowing head pressures, Bible verses, *Latin *and then tells all the poem is in plain English.. lol still doesn’t register with many.
        All the information to find the TC is in the poem…
        What is in the poem? Deliberately chosen words, worked on for many years, and would be risky to discount any.?

        Yep there seems to be one word of most importance and others as well, that live in the piem… Might they be those keywords he looks for when reading his email?

        The first two clues “solved” “deciphered” “indicated”… Yet folks didn’t know the solved them.
        It makes one ponder about what deciphering gets us and what is done with a deciphered reference? I mean, it seems just knowing what a clues reference is, is not enough to “complete” the task.

        • You are right Seeker, that is another topic being discussed over the years. If looking at word definitions up in the dictionary is important or not. In that interview, he said he did look up ‘all of the nouns’ and found out his ‘conception’ of a lot words is not what the dictionary says. I think this is important because of his other comment regarding ‘they look like simple words there but I guarantee you I worked on that’ (or something similar). We have to ask ourselves, why did someone like ff had to look up these ‘seemingly’ simple words in the poem, or how is it possible that they meant something else to him?

          Another one is the hiding of the chest and the writing of the poem. He said it didn’t matter which came first or that he could’ve done it either way. He is not talking about a different poem, like the one that existed when the plan was to go with it. We are talking about the same poem, so the question now is are we understanding the poem the way it was intended?

          • LOL
            Let’s throw another into the mix.. while it doesn’t matter which came first.. the poem or hiding the trove, what seems more important is how the creator of the clues complete the poem by following his clue in the poem.
            A poem created by memory without a map.

            A lot has been said over the years, but imo… You hit on some simple comments for simple thoughts when we take into consideration what we seemingly know of; how fenn did what he did to create and finalize the challenge.

            Logically speaking, that is.

      • There seem to be a number of those *not ready to say* type comments dating back some time in the Chase. Glad others seem to observe them, occasionally…

      • Geysergirl,

        I understand the direction of my questions may not be clear at first glance, but believe me, I am going somewhere with all of this. In short, I am attempting to weed out places that are unlikely to have connections to FF and focus on the ones that are known to. Also, in utilizing this deductive reasoning, I am attempting to optimize the likelihood amongst those places that remain. The map FF gave us covers a fairly large area. The chest is just a blip on that map. Searching for that blip is a lot like the game of Battleship. Some areas can be ruled out while others are narrowed down. Eventually, the chest can only be in so many places and with enough searchers, or searches, and a bit of good fortune, someone should eventually be able to find the chest. If you’ve never played Battleship perhaps 20 Questions is a better analogy. FF’s map is like being in a room where someone spies something with their eyes and you have twenty questions to ask to see if you can’t figure out what it is they are seeing. I don’t know that finding the chest could be done in just 20 questions as that would require FF to answer some pretty revealing questions such as “Is the chest in NM?” (and you could ask this of each state to narrow it down though FF does not answer the most revealing questions) So I am going about posting questions to those who have been in the Chase far longer than I and have likely come across the information I am asking about. Awhile back I slated my difficulty in formulating a complete and proper proof of the Pythagorean Theorem using Euclid’s method. Part of being able to accomplish that task is knowing geometrical information previously known and proved. Without that information, the end goal is impossible. In the case of the Chase we have similar information. FF has definitively and explicitly confirmed or denied certain information about the chest or it’s hiding place, such as elevation, in (or not in) a cave, etc. etc. To someone new to the chase these confirmed bits of information are helpful in just starting out because they rule out a lot of initial thoughts and considerations. SO to the newcomer, they can skip, so to say, the trails and tribulations others before them have had to endure. In science, it is practically unheard of that someone comes up with a new idea or bit of information that doesn’t have some foundation in the word of others. The obvious exception being serendipitous discoveries. So unless someone happens upon the chest, either because they found the location in a similar way FF did prior to hiding the chest, or because they took a wild guess at the poem and it happened to be correct, then I imagine it will only be found because their solve relied in some way upon the work of others who have come and gone before them.

        I was about to go on when I realized how much I had been rambling. Hope this gives you some insight into my intent and I look forward to forward progress! All IMO.

        -Ann

        • Paragraphs Ann, paragraphs! LOL!

          I do understand your intent; to narrow down/exclude some possibilities, like not in a cave, elevation, etc. BUT, the only reason we can discard that info is because Forrest told us so. Maybe I’m just not thinking correctly (been a long day), but how can speculation on where he started and how he got there narrow/exclude anything UNLESS it comes directly from the man himself? At this moment, it is not something we are privy to.

        • IMO, guessing, optimizing, narrowing down, harvesting information from other failed searchers …. is futile and not required. According to Mr. Fenn, all the information needed to solve his riddle is in the poem.
          Remember, there were searchers in the beginning of the Chase, with very little ATF information that solved first two clues (and possibly four).

          • Rich,

            Getting the first two clues, being on site with other clues abound, walking past the treasure chest… Didn’t seem to help much for those early on searchers. Ya kinda need to ask, why is that?

            I mean, isn’t that why the searchers (Search communit)keeps asking questions, chat with others about thoughts, ideas, and WhatIfs…
            Futile is for the Borg… We’re just chatting.

            And while you may think it’s futile, many conversations and Q&As from searchers haveing been collected; are seemingly important facts not known by early on searching.

            Not under water…comes to mind,..not in a cave, mine or tunnel, not in the Canadian Rockies, knowing there are many WWsH, the blaze is of a single object… The list goes on…

            Personally, I think those early searchers got lucky, because they didn’t seem to know they solved clues and couldn’t find anything else correctly while on site.

            I say, good for the early searchers who couldn’t get pass the first two clues… It made the rest of us think why?
            how is that possible?
            when it all seemed to be right in front of them…and in the poem.

            Something is missing, and i want to chat about that with others.

          • Rich,

            Aren’t we all just guessing at the moment? Deductive reason is a tried and true method but I will not expound on that here. While all the information that is needed to solve the riddle is in the poem in FF”s eyes, he certainly has the added benefit of knowing exactly what all the words mean! The solution to a problem is always obvious to the one posing the problem, especially when it comes to riddles. But that’s because they have prior knowledge of the solution. I am new to all of this. SO instead of wasting a lot of time rehashing problems previous searchers have encountered don’t you think it would be wise of me to learn from past mistakes? Clearly those early searchers hadn’t figured out enough to know they had figured out anything at all. My guess today is as good as there’s was then. And since FF never identified who those early searchers were it doesn’t really help us to know that someone was close without knowing who. I thought the whole idea of all of this was to discuss thoughts and ideas about FF and the Chase! Otherwise what are we all doing here? Clearly you care enough to pay attention to some of the things said here. Have you anything constructive to add or a more appropriate method to propose? If so, feel free to share. I for one don’t have much skin in the game without putting BOTG. But I am a problem solver and this problem is intriguing to me. Therefore, I don’t mind trying to help figure ot out. If you don’t find my thoughts or ideas useful then just pass over them and move on to the ones more helpful to you. And apologies if any of this comes off as aggressive. I am currently fighting a sinus infection. Talk about a pian in your nerves!!! All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Sorry Ann. It wasn’t my intention to offend you. My post above was a genuine attempt (and I thought a contribution) to point you, in what I think to be a correct direction.
            I promise to read all of your post to to find out about your contribution to the Chase.

            P.S. I was cranky as well. After my third dive yesterday, I came up with a headache.
            RichInBelize

          • Rich,

            No offense taken. I dislike how texts or posts don’t capture the context of the words being conveyed. I try to remind myself of that when I write something in case it may be taken out of the context with which I am writing it.

            I would love for the poem to be the sole proprietor of the information required to find the poem. I am of the opinion that FF intended for anyone who came across his book (which is where the poem and map would be found) to be capable of finding the chest. I am currently grappling with just how exactly to go about using that information, which seems to be the conundrum of everyone interested in this Chase. I welcome any ideas and I don’t mind sharing my own. If someone wishes to keep discussions confidential I honor that as well. I have stated before that I don’t have any intentions of putting BOTG anytime soon as that is something just not feasible for me at this point. I am more interested in solving the problem, being an avid problem solver.. Other than that, I am fairly new to all of this, a couple weeks now I think, so I am trying to catch up on ten years worth of what have you! I have a science/math background so I tend to be on the logical, technical and detail orientated side. I also promote collaboration as it tends to produce better and more efficient results. Ultimately, I am more interested in figuring out the puzzle than actually finding the chest, though I realize the two are related.

            All that said, I would like to hear your thoughts on what the riddle is. I have not yet seen any clear thoughts on identifying the riddle.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Seeker,
            You seem to state in your post above that the first searchers who were at the site of the third clue (two clues solved) were lucky and probably guessed them.
            I don’t agree. IMO they genuinely solved the first two clues, but unfortunately (for them) they left the poem and went by the chest.
            IMO, you have to solve this conundrum to get to the site of the third clue.
            These searchers didn’t solve it and went by the chest.

            By the way, ATFs that you are quoting above:
            “Not under water…comes to mind,..not in a cave, mine or tunnel, not in the Canadian Rockies, knowing there are many WWsH, the blaze is of a single object… The list goes on…”
            They are just common sense statements, I can’t see how can they be of any use in solving the poem.
            Most of them, IMO, were meant to keep people safe. People died doing crazy stuff.

            IMO, SBs and ATFs will help you to confirm your solution but won’t help to solve the poem.

            RichInBelize

          • RichInBelize,

            *Of any use* is debatable.

            While they may not point to a solve, they do create an idea of what is not possible.
            Many searched Canada, Many searched in water, some thought the blaze to be more than one thing or even more than one blaze.
            Common sense? Maybe, but if early on searchers used a watery grave for a solve… poof, bad solve. If the though the blaze as two objects… poof, bad solve. If they were looking at a structure for a place the chest lays in wait… poof!
            Those idea could screw up a solve right at the start because they would have had to involve those wrong concept, right from the start.

            I said; *Personally, I think those early searchers got lucky, because they didn’t seem to know they solved clues and couldn’t find anything else correctly while on site.*

            There’s a sight difference to having a guess and getting lucky.
            Something brought searchers to the correct WWsH. For example only; should WWsH be a lake… what got them to that particular lake, out of the many?
            Deciphering a clue may not place one at the correct first clue… which many here have implied the first two clues solved seems important to the comment.
            The fact that fenn felt they didn’t know they got those clues correct speaks volumes for the need of other clues or information in the poem.

            We have been told we need to learn where WWsH… did those searchers learn this or did the get lucky by something they read in the book they simply liked about an area?
            IMO, they didn’t understand what WWsH is for and/or why fenn chose it to be the first clue.

            Where’s does the idea of *what took me so long* start?… at the end of the clues or the beginning?

            I’ll also add: what could be the “important possibility” for a winning solve, no one had ever mentioned [ at the date of that comment ]?

            There’s more to WWsH that just a simply starting point… many searchers having that clue indicated and being on site, going by everything else, and all being stumped at the very next clues, yells… what is it about WWsH we need to nail down???

            My comment stands, IMO, they got lucky in being at the correct WWsH, because they didn’t know they solved it.

            I have said it before.. a clue is not an answer. It is of itself a hint towards and answer.
            A clue: a fact or idea that serves as a guide or aid in a task or problem.
            A hint; a slight or indirect indication or suggestion. {LOL call it a lucky guess if ya like}

            I think they got there by a very subtle hint… with little or no facts behind the thought… That’s a riddle in my mind.
            Being on site with the mentioning of the first two clues and from that point on… it all falls apart. WHY? Why did the next clues stump them? What didn’t they get from having those two clues?

            The other two things they didn’t know of are;
            The clues are in “consecutive order” and are “contiguous”… would that have helped them any?

          • Seeker –

            “My comment stands, IMO, they got lucky in being at the correct WWsH, because they didn’t know they solved it.”

            I’m not on either side of the fence as to whether those first few searchers solved it or they just got lucky, but until the treasure is found, how will ANYONE know that their WWWHs solve is correct? What is it for you that would seal the deal on that clue without a reasonable doubt, that you know your solve is correct and you can move on to your next clue? I’m curious because I don’t see how that’s even possible. Hence the conundrum of the entire challenge. IMO

    • Ann – I am, and always have been, an inside or around the Yellowstone, believer. Every time I explore other locations as possibilities, I end up right back where I started. But that’s just me.

      As far as thoughts on where Forrest began the chest hiding trip and how did he get there; does it really matter? I’m probably missing something because you are a pretty intelligent person from what I can gather here. But I’m not following you on how you find that information important when considering where the chest is likely not to be hidden as well as where it possibly could be hidden. Isn’t any scenerio possible since we will probably never know these answers?

      As Dal stated after his info in his post: “None of this is compelling evidence that he DID hide the chest in that area.” And even though I am a YS searcher, I would have to agree with Dal.

        • Tall Andrew – First I will state that everything below is simply my deductions based on what I believe to be human nature. Simply speculation.

          But every time I go back and read TTOTC, the more I see how that area was not only special to Forrest, but it was, and always will be, a huge part of him. To me, those summers in YS were where Forrest escaped his reality of being “not so great” in school, that is where he flourished and grew and felt most at home growing up. What is that saying? Home is where the heart is… well even though he resided in TX, his heart was in YS. And I believe that most people, when thinking about their journey thru life, will have the fondest memories of those “special places and times” that molded us into who we eventually become. And those memories (treasures) are what we go back to for spiritual comfort.

          Now don’t get me wrong. There were many other times and events that were special and helped Forrest discover who he was, but the beginning (IMO) were those summers in YS. Go back and read “Flywater” in the TTOTC. That chapter is one that to me, puts a lot of things in perspective.

          So that’s all referencing the book and not the poem, you say. Exactly. Forrest tells us to read the book. We need “something” to point us in the right direction in terms of the “bigger picture”, before we can focus on the clues in the poem that help to narrow things down. The book, to me, is what sets the stage for helping us interpret the poem: a starting point. The book, the poem, the maps. We need ALL of them in MHO.

          The last line in the first stanza: And hint of riches new and old……I see Forrest as being someone who believes that there is nothing RICHER then all of life experiences. And he has many to look back on, both as a youngster and in his later years in life in a place he loved so much, Yellowstone.

          Of course there are also the “hints” that I believe point to YS as well. But picking out the hints is just pure guessing at best. I guess when I try to imagine where Forrests “special place” would be, it’s hard to imagine any place else.

          • Andrew – What’s funny is at this point, I don’t care as much as to whether or not I actually find the treasure.( Although that would be awesome of course) I would just like to know that my processes of solving the clues were somewhat on track. Meaning; I may have the wrong area, but if I had the correct one, my solves for each clue would work. Yes, dream on! LOL!

            May I ask what is your state of choice and why?
            Thanks and good luck to you as well. 🙂

          • Geysergirl and Tall Andrew – Yes. Those nouns. And pronouns? Is ‘Brown’ a pronoun? Or, a Colloquialism for experienced fly fisherman?

            Thinking about:

            ‘riches’ > ‘rich E.S.’ > ‘rich Eric Sloane’

            Just change a few Caps. Like Forrest did with ‘Brown’ in the Poem. Eric had a “Reverence for Wood”. What was that quote in that Jennifer London interview, where Forrest responds with something about ‘wood’, when Jennifer asks about the ‘home of Brown’ reference in the Poem?

          • Lisa –

            “Yes. Those nouns. And pronouns? Is ‘Brown’ a pronoun? Or, a Colloquialism for experienced fly fisherman?”

            Not trying to stir up anymore about Brown being capitalized and why (I think we all beat that to death), but I had to laugh to myself when reading A River Runs Through it and seeing that Mr. Maclean capitalizes Brown trout in his story. Now who can argue with a man like that! LOL!

            just kidding…. 😉

          • Geysergirl – Except, Forrest didn’t read that book, before he wrote the Poem. Sally Colorado gave him the book to read, fairly recently.

            But, what version do you have? The one with the Robert Redford forward? And what page is the ‘Brown trout’ reference on? That might support my Baker’S Hole solve. Thanks!

          • Yes, understood that Forrest read the book after he read the poem. I was just making reference (partly in fun) that Mr. Maclean chose to Capitalize not only Brown, but every other trout he talked about.

            He mentions Brown trout thru a lot of the book, but the first reference I see when I scanned the pages was on page 48 of the version with Robbert Redfords forward. Hope that helps you.

    • To those who have responded-

      Thank you for responding to my inquiry. I very much appreciate the shared thoughts and ideas. I find them all very compelling/

      BEC,

      I agree that if FF started from his house in Santa Fe and drove (no flight included) to the Cody/YNP area to hide the chest, then he would have stayed over night. This would rule out a single day hide. correct?

      Dal,

      I appreciate you sharing your research conclusions. I think it is all valuable information the rest of us may not have had the time or the means to gather. I agree completely with the feasibility of your thoughts. I take it then, that you don’t believe he began the hide from his home in Santa Fe? And would I be wrong to conclude that you don’t believe a plane flight was involved directly with the hide? Just asking to be sure we are on the same page. I would be interested to know the dates of FF’s last flights or when he gave up flying and the dates of his affiliation with the museum in Cody. I am sure that information may be gathered here from these threads but I also imagine you have already compiled a detailed timeline and would be interested to look it over if you cared to share. I don’t know much about the timeframe or events so such a timeline would help in understanding.

      Blex,

      You raise some interesting points. While the information shared here does not rule out much of the area definitively, it does lend some credence to those areas most seriously under consideration. And if nothing else, It demonstrates some direct and special connections of areas to FF.

      Oz10,

      I agree that if FF started from his home in Santa Fe and only drove (no flight included) to hide the hide and returned home the same day, then the chest is likely not hidden any further north than southern CO. That is certainly a viable option.

      To everyone-

      In light of these responses I have a couple of follow up questions I would like to ask:

      1. First, I am wondering what everyone thinks about the actual area to which the poem refers. By this I mean, do you think the clues refer to say the Rockies in general or are they more specific to say an area of one square mile? And why? Obviously there is a spectrum of possibilities in between these extremes but I ask this question in conjunction with the next:

      2. For those who believe the chest to be in YNP, such as Dal describes above, where do you believe WWWH to be? The same for those who believe FF started in Santa Fe (or any other alternate theory). I am not asking anyone to divulge information they may be keeping for a particular solve they want to explore prior to sharing. I ask this question in conjunction with the first because I think it’s important to understand where WWWH in relation to the area indicated by the poem in order to understand how FF may have hid the treasure and therefore inform us on how to go about retrieving it. For example, if you believe the poem to refer to the entire Rockies and the chest to be hidden in YNP, then WWWH may not actually be in YNP. Similarly, if you believe the clues in the poem are confined to YNP, then I would imagine WWWH would not be found outside of YNP. I suppose that is why I ask where you believe WWWH is and not necessarily what WWWH is. For those who care to share their thoughts I thank you in advance.

      In addition to these follow up questions I have one further question: Has anyone located the single room schoolhouse FF’s father took him to in WY? And if so would you please share this information with the rest of us. I would be interested to know whether it is still standing or not.

      I look forward to this ongoing conversation and I thank those of you who respond.

      -Ann

      • Ann O’Nymous;

        You say to BCE:

        BEC,

        I agree that if FF started from his house in Santa Fe and drove (no flight included) to the Cody/YNP area to hide the chest, then he would have stayed over night. This would rule out a single day hide. correct?

        No it wouldn’t. Forrest said that he hid the treasure in one afternoon, and that it took two trips. This says nothing about what he did after hiding the treasure, He could have driven back to Santa Fe, (if hid in NM) – or he could have stayed overnight anywhere, and continued his trip[ home any time thereafter.

        Size of area? I have two solves – a “Big Picture Solve” – covers an area about 10 miles square – and a “Small Area Visual Solve” – this one covers an area that would fit in a 2 mile square area. JMO – JDA

        • JDA,

          You are missing part of that conversation. We were hypothesizing that FF leaves his house in Santa Fe, hides the chest, and returns to his house in the same day. IF that is the case, then driving only would likely rule out YNP. If however, FF left his house in Santa Fe and drove to hide the chest and the chest is hidden in YNP, then it likely took more than a day to complete the hide, (complete here meaning to return home). Hope that clears up the confusion.

          -Ann

      • Ann, there is Tons of information on this website that answer your questions. I would do what Forrest recommended. Read the poem over and over, then read his book TTOTC, try to marry the clues in the poem to a place on the map. TTOTC has WWWH in it, you just have to use your imagination. Then you will know where to start. All in my opinion.

      • Ann-
        My solutions are on this blog. If you read a couple from the YNP area you will see my thinking about how the clues in the poem might fit the area.
        Having said that, it is also worth mentioning that my solution evolves each time I don’t find the chest. I try a different this or a different that and see where it leads me.

        • Dal,

          Thank you. I will try and find some time to look over those. I am glad you allow your solution to evolve over time. I’d ask you for the brief version of that here but imagine if I read over your posted solutions I would arrive at the same answer. Nevertheless, I hope we are evolving in the right direction. I do have to ask you this though. What do you feel was the latest bit of significant information (or thought or idea) for you, and why? Thanks again for sharing.

          -Ann

      • Hi Ann, there is a comment out there that I believe is not first hand but is regarding the location or size of WWWH that I always found a bit confusing. I think it was an email Mr. Fenn sent to Cynthia or Dal or someone else in which the searcher had identified Yellowstone NP as the WWWH and Mr. Fenn said that it could not be a large region like YNP but somewhere more specific. Maybe someone has the link to that comment. The point is that if true,whatever WWWH refers to seems to be a smaller area where the other clues are found or within a short distance. Could it still be the headwaters of a river, a border line, a road?

          • It should be reasonable to assume that the poem has a reference to a ‘larger’ region. Maybe not the first, second or third but one of the later clues could point to a larger region, sorta like ‘you should be in this general area’. They are contiguous in the solving but nothing says that we are going from a larger to a smaller and smaller area until we finally hit the chest location.

        • Oz10 and Zap,

          I thank you for trying to give me a more definitive answer to this question. It would be wonderful if FF said the poem refers to a small area!

          The link you provided Zap, does not put the question to rest for me. The post by dal, while informative, was in regards to WWWH being an area or a specific location. I guess I should reword my question…..

          Has FF ever said anything as to whether the entire Chase, from WWWH to the chest, is spread out over the entire map, or whether all the clues are contained in a much smaller area such as YNP? (Or anything in between.) Or even more simply, is there any reasonable approximation to the area of the actual Chase (other than somewhere in the Rockies north of Santa Fe)? I thank those who have offered up some raw numbers. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • Hi Ann: “Has FF ever said anything as to whether the entire Chase, from WWWH to the chest, is spread out over the entire map, or whether all the clues are contained in a much smaller area such as YNP? (Or anything in between.)”

            To my knowledge, Forrest has never constrained the scope of the search in such a manner. In fact, there is no requirement for WWWH to even be in the United States (though I think most believe it does). I personally believe all nine clues are within the shaded region of Forrest’s map in TFTW — but there is no requirement that that be the case.

            The contiguous and sequential nature of the clues suggests that they can’t be stretched too far and wide, given that there are only 9 clues to get you from start to finish.

          • Ann,

            During one interview of Late, Forrest mentioned he had to get in his car from his garage (I’m paraphrasing) in order to drive to the first clue. He never mentions how far that trip was in the same sentence.

            I guess this is what you are referring too?

            My take is that Forrest was stating the obvious. Well of course he had to get in his car to leave his house, to get to the First clue, How else would he leave his house?

            Where people go wrong (IMO) is that they believe he was referring he left his house and in one afternoon hid the treasure. He never stated that (Never) and to combine the two statements would not be wise IMO.

            Trying to narrow down where the TC is NOT, is not solving the clues in the poem, IMO…

            Finding WWWH is a searchers first order of business. Without that you just have a nice vacation and some happy memories. Forrest mentions there are Hints in TTOTC, I would take him up on that… Best of Luck

          • Bec,

            Thanks for the reply. I share similar thoughts as you. I am still on the fence about much of all of it but I have been enjoying trying to sort through the noise.

            In trying to figure out where the chest is not, I am not also trying to solve the clues. It’s more of a justification or confirmation of a solve. That is all I have for here. There has been much chatter today so I will get to the rest elsewhere! All IMO>

            -Ann

      • Ann,
        My measured area is a little more than 150 miles. What I mean is that all my clue locations are within this area.

  66. It’s really great that Forrest hid a chest in the Rockies to motivate people to enjoy the wild outdoors. What is not great is that he is forcing us to read/recite/interpret poetry over and over and over and over. I learned to not appreciate poetry in High School and that has not changed over the decades. The Chase isn’t helping! Why, Forrest? Why???

    mBG

    • Thinking the poetry is about calm and tranquil and stuff. Like chi or something. Doesn’t always do much if it’s at the end of the day. Try it in morning and it seems to work better. Supposed to help thinking too which might help with the treasure huntin.

  67. In relation to comments about flying to the general area where f hid the treasure, and figuring out the poem.
    In English class I remember a teacher sharing a poem about white chickens and a red wheel barrow. To most of us in class it seemed to be about a contrast of colors etc. We were informed we were all wrong and that it was about communists – etc. The point being I guess, that there can be many many ways ways to “interpret” a poem. However, you never really know what the true meanings may be unless you are the one who wrote the poem.
    I believe (if I am not mistaken) Dal has stated in the past that Forrest often says something that can be taken a number of different ways – and what he means by what he said may be different from what the listener might initially assume. (Sorry going by memory of what was said and may be way off base in my attempt to put it into words).
    WWWH – what is it then? Unless we are looking at it from the exact same perspective of the poet, it could be just about anything… maybe where one stops crying? i.e. after someone’s passing. Or, since Forrest is a pilot and no doubt loved flying… would the WWWH be clouds? (so many of his posts relate to flying, even if only reference to getting some where). As well, in a poetic sense… clouds have their own ‘canyons’ that form between them. And maybe “put in below hoB” is to land the plane at an airstrip that is below a “home of Brown” and then to take a rental car as he has mentioned.
    Would that change one’s – “from there it is no place for the meek” and hlawh, or would it actually make a previous solve of hoB etc… make more sense?
    I don’t know that WWWH would be clouds, (and therefore tie the poem to flying to get to the solve area) but thought I would put this out there as I have never heard anyone suggest clouds as being WWW.
    I guess I am just looking at how many of Forrest’s interests and hobbies could possibly tie into the hints and still make sense towards a solve.

  68. Just curious, and maybe this has been discussed before, if the chest is locked when discovered would anyone here think it would be ok to force it open? Assuming there is no key found with the chest.

    Opto

  69. Just solved the series 2 MW Gold Medallion Treasure Hunt. An area I hiked and fished a great deal in my youth!

  70. This message is in response to various comments above.

    Richin Belize wrote that Forrest said: … all the information needed to solve his riddle is in the poem.

    Yes he did, Rich. But searchers disregard this verbal comment because, in my opinion, most long-time searchers have given up on the poem.

    To Rich’s comment, Seeker responded: “Getting the first two clues … didn’t seem to help much for those early on searchers. Ya kinda need to ask, why is that … when it all seemed to be right in front of them [suggesting a small search area] … and in the poem. Something is missing”.

    Seeker, you and I have been hashing out our disagreement on search area for years. I know I’m not going to change your mind. But I’ll respond again to you, briefly later, in response to a comment from Ann O’Nymous. Maybe she will be more open-minded.

    Ann O’Nymous wrote: “Aren’t we all just guessing at the moment?”.

    No, Ann, not all of “us”. The poem leads ME to a very specific “spot” where I think the chest is hidden. And that’s with NO assistance from any source outside the poem. People ask me why I don’t use TTOTC. The answer is >>> I don’t need TTOTC. The poem alone does exactly what Forrest said it would do.

    Ann further responded: “I am wondering what everyone thinks about the actual area to which the poem refers … do you think the clues refer to … the Rockies in general or are they more specific … And why?”

    I have expounded on this question here many times.

    Ann, you will find that most searchers zero in on a very small area. Toby Younis thinks you drive to WWWH, then walk the remaining 8 clues. He has said he doesn’t think the chest is more than a thousand feet from WWWH. And that’s a very popular idea among searchers.

    Of course, popularity is not a valid criterion for evaluating a solution. And I think Toby is flat wrong.

    For years Seeker has proposed a similar idea, with the variation that at some designated point in your hike, you “observe” multiple clues, more or less concurrently. Seeker uses Fenn’s comment that early searchers found the first couple of clues, then “walked” past the rest. Of course, Fenn has also said those searchers “went” past the rest of the clues. So which is it >>> “walked” or “went”?

    Seeker, you and others may be “missing” something. I don’t think I am. The clues in the poem make sense to ME. They are consecutive, they are specific, they are consistent with the verbal comments that Forrest has enunciated clearly. And there are other reasons to be confident about them.

    In my opinion, searchers are making major mistakes in their analyses. I see what those mistakes are. But obviously, I would prefer to keep that information to myself.

    There are many, many problems with a small search area, which I have described in detail multiple times. I’m not going to rehash all those problems here.

    Suffice it to say that I think the general area of the search is defined in multiple miles, with the specific spot becoming ever closer, as searcher successfully solves each clue. The actual hike is short and fairly easy.

    After all, Forrest has also said for us to marry the clues to a map. I know of no map that contains every rock, every ant hill, every bush, every gully, every tree >>> which is what a small search area would seem to require.

    Further, there would be no way to solve these micro features from home, since there is no map that would detail them with such precision. Forrest has said that all or most of the clues could be solved at home. Ergo, the search area must of necessity span a much bigger area, an area wherein multiple clues (though not place names) appear on some published map, and be separated by miles.

    Yet, every searcher has to decide what information is important, including what message board responses to take seriously. Ann, I hope you will find my message at least clear and readable.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • Ken {TX} ~ *So which is it >>> “walked” or “went”?*

      They are one in the same.

      As for the map and it’s details? GE is sufficient. fenn made it so with the comment GE “and/or” a good map. As far as I’m concerned, ya can toss the paper mappings.

      Searchers solved the first two clues and went by the remaining seven clues. Searcher figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest. Searchers were within 500′ others at 200′ …
      The overall concept is; the clues should be within a distance of each other for those things to happen.
      Note; I didn’t say walking distance of each other.

      However, I get that many want those comments [ stated separately over time ] to be completely unconnected.
      Yet, when you take into consideration what fenn has told of his action [again, comments told of over time] He walked less than a few miles, done in one afternoon, two trips from his car because of weight, took the most direct route, followed his own clues in the poem to complete the task. And I’ll add an 80 yr old is not going up and down and up a canyon… All those comments add up to a smaller scale area a ‘searcher’ needs to be.

      If ya want all that basic information to lay separate from each other because they just weren’t stated together… that’s ok by me.
      The overall concept [ information the early searchers didn’t have ] concludes that those early searchers didn’t drive miles upon miles… They were at WWsH and went by the seven remaining clues and walked by the chest by some relative distance… 500′ approx. [How any did that? who knows, be apparently many, several, more than several]

      Extended Note; But, you seem to misunderstand the idea of a small area solve. Like others you think the clues must be contained in the same area of the chest. Not exactly.

      Clues can be of a distance apart, yet seen from a vantage point. The correlation of the clues shows where the chest lays in wait [by understanding the instruction I believe are in the poem.] The difference being; the actual area a searcher should be in, and remains in, is small because the chest is near … but the location that contains the remaining clues can be huge in-comparison.
      The point to point method forces folks to leave the poem and hike or drive between clues. The “planning and observing” method allows an 80 yr old to follow is own clues [ without a map ] to complete the poem’s task, and allows it [the poem] to locate a place to hide the chest within a location that is dear to fenn.

      But I get it… if a searcher can’t let go of the precondition notion this is a conventional point to point treasure hunt… they will not understand that some of the clues can be of ‘instruction’ on how to utilize the physical, tangible, references in order to follow [to understand how they work] those clues, and have them lead to [show] a hidey spot.

      I dare say… none of the early searchers would have done that… every solve to date is a point to point stomping method, or a hybrid of, because it’s the illusion [precondition notion] the reader create it to be.

      Here’s a check and balance i keep in mind;
      If we don’t have the first clue nailed down we have nothing, might as well stay home…LOL but many have done just that, solved the first two clues.
      Then we have;
      IF you know hoB why be concerned about WWsH?

      My question is; how can they both be true to each other?

      If hoB can be located without WWsH… fenn lied about having that clue [WWsH] or we have nothing, don’t have anything… **I’m not buy that.**
      IMO.. the question was posed for serious consideration… one being; a physical presences after the first few [couple] of clues. Well, why is that? We need WWsH, period.
      If later clues can be found on any map… the idea that we need all the ingredients flies out the window, in a point to point method. The method allows a good guess to locate later clues and complete the solve from that point. I don’t care how many miles or feet are involved… something is wrong with that method IF we can actually FIND and KNOW later clues.

      Deciphering a clue’s reference, location/place, doesn’t conclude what it is for. More information is needed… I think that is what the poem is relaying… Read the “instructions”

      • Seeker, we may not see the solve the same way, but I have to agree with everything you just said.
        As I look at my solve, in the end, what you posted is almost exactly how I see it. Of course, I see finding WWWH totally different then most, but from that WWWH, there are lines that follow that I believe he is just observing. Kind of just going on with a thought in his head of what he’s about to do.
        I don’t see a point to point at all. In fact, I call that the “first year” solve.
        The thing is, and the question has to be asked by each searcher. Am I reading this poem correctly? If you think you can solve one clue to the next to the next, then how does f’s statement about at a minimum only needing the last clue solved make sense? And, if a knowledge of the previous clue is needed, then how can we get the first clue? Especially since f has not given us the answer to it?
        We’ve done the “what’s considered a clue” thing for years. So how can a confident solve be accomplished, when we don’t really know what F considers a clue?
        As far as the 2 trips comment, there are other ways to interpret that comment. Usually, when f wants us to know the difference, he let’s us know, but not with this comment. Best to understand the couple of interpretations that are possible and not be so influenced by what it may sound like. We have to remember that he didn’t answer the question of whether he used another form of travel.
        Usually, when Colokid pops in with a post, there is a good takeaway, this line is no different,
        “Maybe the statements about using a ‘map’ isn’t intended to be applied to ALL the clues?”
        Point to point searchers would have trouble with this statement, but it is true. Actually, what is the one thing that searchers have not considered? Maybe it’s the ability to not be able to solve all the clues. Maybe the one thing we haven’t thought of is that not all the clues can be solved. Isn’t BoTG needed for some of the clues anyway? How can a searcher go in confidence when they haven’t solved all the clues, or can’t? That’s what I think searchers are missing, that it is possible.

        • PI – You ask – “How can a searcher go in confidence when they haven’t solved all the clues, or can’t?”

          By Faith.
          I know it’s a big hill to climb but it can be managed.

        • Poisonivy,

          The minimum clues needed?… The last clue is the most obvious answer. But you can’t see the last clue on GE, right?
          We are told we needed all the clues to get to the last….
          How many lug nuts do you need to keep a tire and rim on a car… The last one. You figure it out.

          • What is the “minimum” amount of lug nuts needed? Plus, lug nuts are not numbered.
            It’s an “of course” question, but, wouldn’t that mean that the clues then find something else? And it just so happens that all those clues need to be found because from the 8th clue, you found this something else? Then, the minimum amount of chest clues would be one, the last? Because really, there is only one chest clue?
            I wouldn’t drive a car with only one lug nut, and we are not going to find the chest with just the last clue, obvious, but he did say “minimum” one clue, the last. Like saying, you wouldn’t drive a car with one lug nut on the tire, but I would if I had 4 regular nuts that fit, along with the one lug nut.
            So, can a searcher find the chest with only one chest clue, of course, by using the other 8 clues that found something else, and the one chest clue, the last, to find the chest.
            We all know that the last clue is a solve clue, no GE. So, can you find the chest by solving all the clues for the chest, yes, because there is only one. Can searchers determine all the clues from home? We know the answer to that, no, so how can you not know all the clues but still find the spot?
            Seeker, you said, “He walked less than a few miles, done in one afternoon, two trips from his car because of weight, took the most direct route, followed his own clues in the poem to complete the task. And I’ll add an 80 yr old is not going up and down and up a canyon… All those comments add up to a smaller scale area a ‘searcher’ needs to be.”
            If you are interpreting those comments correctly. where is the reference for the word “few” that we need to use to know what f is saying?
            Done in one what in the trips comment. Is that one trip in the afternoon, in one afternoon, or in one trip after noon?
            Two trips from his car, did he start after 12:00pm? A man that has started his day early in the morning his whole life, decides that he will start at 12:00pm, just this one time?
            You know as well as anybody, we cannot rest on just one interpretation, but when he says minimum one, there is nothing to figure out, no matter what you drive.

    • @ Ken (in Texas) – As to your “went” and “walked” past quandary, I think both were in reference to having figured out/mentioned/cracked/deciphered the first two clues. Since both words are on the same footing with that regards (pun intended), it is my opinion that walked is the better descriptor for what actually occurred. I think such interpretation is reinforced by the 500′ and 200′ comments because such attaches a physical presence on foot as further reinforced by the “close proximity” and “manmade structure” ATF’s which would seemingly negate other means of ambulation. The icing on the cake for me is the two trips comment(s). IMHO.

    • Ken (in tex),
      You said: “After all, Forrest has also said for us to marry the clues to a map. I know of no map that contains every rock, every ant hill, every bush, every gully, every tree >>> which is what a small search area would seem to require.”
      And yet we are looking for a 12″ x 12″ location….right?

      And: “Further, there would be no way to solve these micro features from home, since there is no map that would detail them with such precision. Forrest has said that all or most of the clues could be solved at home. Ergo, the search area must of necessity span a much bigger area, an area wherein multiple clues (though not place names) appear on some published map, and be separated by miles.”

      Seems like a lot of assumptions here. Might be worth reconsidering NOT trying to solve all the clues from home. He never literally said that all the clues could be solved from home and in fact has implied the opposite. So it seems like a contradiction in logic to think that getting to a 1 foot square spot requires a solution on the scale of miles.

      Maybe the statements about using a ‘map’ isn’t intended to be applied to ALL the clues?

    • Ken,
      I commend you for just using the Poem as your guide. That is almost impossible even if you have the correct starting point. But let me add this; if that’s the only quote from Forrest that you believe you need to adhere to, then you must be Psychic.

      If all you are using is the poem and know nothing about the history of Forrest Fenn then any random WWWH will do… how would you know which one to choose? The poem doesn’t tell you that on its own? You would have to know a little more about the Man who wrote the poem.

      Let me ask you this, Do you have an alligator in your search area? If not, then you haven’t used your imagination and your not in the correct spot IMO. The only way you would know this is if you read the book.
      Forrest said, Imagination is more important than knowledge. You can’t see the alligator unless you know it’s there..

      Of course you need to use the poem but without additional information from TTOTC you’re just off on a hike in N.M. somewhere IMO…. Happy Trails

      • BEC,
        I think you’re mistaken.
        “Imagination is more important than knowledge” is attributed to Einstein. I don’t have a link, but my understanding is that Forest said something like, “Imagination is better than knowlege.”
        I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a hint.
        By the way, this crocodile of yours must be mad by know.

        RichInBelize

        • Thank You Lisa, I like your inspiration and ideas. You’re very optimistic and have a great imagination ! I too have looked in your area and have not ruled it out.. I just have a better solve at the moment that fits every clue. I will read your suggested poem. Thanks

    • Ken in Texas,

      Thank you for your remarks. I would imagine anyone who has come up with a specific spot has felt they were not guessing, but I get what you are saying. Even educated guess or probable solves are still just conjecture unless and until confirmed as correct or true. But I am not here to banter over semantics.

      I like your approach to the poem and the overall area of the Chase. It is certainly an avenue I have under consideration. I would be interested to hear more on your thoughts about the poem and the map. Let me know if you would be interested in the same. Thanks again.

      -Ann

      • Hi Ann. You said “I would imagine anyone who has come up with a specific spot has felt they were not guessing …”
        ———————————————-

        No Ann, I’m not guessing. But to explain why I know I’m not guessing would be to reveal too much.

        Still, we all agree that nothing about the clues or the location can be 100% certain until the chest is physically retrieved.

        My general area spans many miles. The poem contains a specific start place (not a region), followed by 8 vectors, for a total of 9 clues.

        Each poem clue identifies a specific geographic place that gets searcher closer (metaphorically) to the chest. The physical locations (identified by the clues) are separated by miles, until we get physically close to the chest, and then the distance between clue locations shrinks, as you would expect since searcher is walking/hiking.

        Each of the 8 vector locations is independent of all other locations. Thus, searcher must correctly solve each clue, in sequential order. There can be no shortcuts. If searcher makes a mistake at clue number 5, for example, searcher will not be able to find any subsequent clue locations.

        This approach thus requires solving all 9 clues, one after the other, and independently of any other clue.

        As you might surmise, this approach would not be possible in a small area search. One could hike back and forth across an entire small area and just happen on to clue location 6, for instance, without first finding places associated with clues 2, 3, 4, or 5.

        The treasure hunt is thus made difficult because of a large search area, and the need to solve clues independently. This approach is simple conceptually and straightforward.

        But the application of this approach in a real world setting is hard.

        Forrest has said over and over that everything a searcher needs to find the chest is in the poem, including the definition of WWWH and WWWH’s specific location in the Rocky Mountains. All 8 subsequent vector places can also be found in the poem.

        It slays me that searchers do not seem to believe Forrest that the chest’s location can be found using only the poem.

        That searchers do not believe Forrest, is one of the most striking characteristics of the searcher “community”.

        I think long-time searchers have literally given up on the poem, and in desperation grasp at TTOTC, the scrapbooks, and perform heavy-duty internet research to find a way around that “impossible” poem. But all of that extraneous material is unnecessary, and to me it reeks of desperation.

        One more point. I do not detect any place names in the poem. Any that are found are merely coincidental. Place names would be too easy. So the clues describe geographic “features” associated with a particular place.

        Accordingly, searcher must have some familiarity with the geography of the Rocky Mountains, and be able to conceptually connect a clue to its corresponding specific location.

        Use Fenn’s verbal statements (the ones that are not confusing or contradictory) to confirm or deny each clue location.

        Hope this helps.

        Ken (in Texas) 🙂

        • Ken in Texas,
          Although details of my solution appear to be totally different than yours, conceptually my and your solutions appear to be similar. I agree with you on the following items:
          1. Large scale solution. You are right. That is one of the reasons why it’s so difficult to solve this poem.
          2. All clues are in the poem, with no need for guessing them. Agree 100%, all clues are in the poem with no need to use ATFs.
          3. I slightly differ on your guessing statement. In my solution there is no need for guessing up to the 4th clue. Pass that, each clue has multiple solutions that must be vetted out by BOTG. So, theoretically you can solve them all from home, but practically this is 1 in a million possibility.
          The biggest differences between the two solutions is that not all of my clues are geographical places.

          RichInBelize

        • Ken in Texas,

          I did indeed say “I would imagine anyone who has come up with a specific spot has felt they were NOT guessing …”

          I added the emphasis on not here because I think you have missed that part! I imagine those who are preparing to put BOTG feel they are not about to be guessing where to go.

          That said, I very much appreciate your reply. I love the thought proves and I like your approach to the problem. I have a couple follow up questions in light of what you have shared:

          1. I don’t foresee any place names in the poem either, notwithstanding perhaps Brown. That being the case, I am interested on your thoughts about which map ought to be used. If you need me to elaborate on that I can.

          2. Depending, then, on your answer to the first question above, are you marrying the poem to the map you are using based solely on geographic knowledge of the Rockies? That is what I gather from your remarks and that seems like a very sound idea. I would be interested to know how geography alone, without reference to the ATFs, is something the poem suggests as the way to marry the two. I imagine most people who come across the Chase have very little knowledge about the geography of the Rockies, myself included.

          I look forward to your response and thank you again for a sincere exchange. All IMO.

          -Ann

  71. Does anyone know has Forrest ever elaborated on the One Room School House beyond that single line in ttotc? Has he ever been asked about it in an interview?

    • Matt – I have not heard Forrest elaborate any further on it. I have made a go at trying to find it, but have been unsuccessful. I feel like it must have been in Wyoming (but I guess Colorado could be possible too) and there are some good historical records of one-room schoolhouses online. Many of them are now gone forever, a few are still standing and maintained as historical sites. Others have been converted into private residences. There are plenty of photos of them online, old and present, but I have never seen one with the quote that Forrest mentions inscribed over its door.

      In TTOTC, Forrest does not mention whether or not the schoolhouse was abandoned or still in use at the time that his father detoured to visit it. If it was abandoned back then in the 1930’s it may have disappeared completely by now.

      • p. 45, TTOTC
        “So we drove 35 miles an hour for 1,600 miles with no air conditioning or radio. Even so, my father always drove 50 miles out of our way, down a little dirt road to a one-room schoolhouse in Wyoming, just to show me what was written over the door. “He Who Teaches a Child Labors with God in His Workshop.” He was so proud about that.”

        -Lori

        • Ah, thanks Lori! I had forgotten Forrest specifically mentioned Wyoming in the passage! So THAT’S why I was looking for the schoolhouse in Wyoming so much! 🙂

          • I don’t know what bear you are referring to. I am not aware of one being mentioned in TTOTC. The 35 mph is significant (as FF explains) because of the war and everything being rationed, like gasoline and tires. 35 mph was the recommended speed for citizens to save fuel for the war effort.

            Any other meaning of 35 falls outside my focus, and ventures dangerously close to codes or ciphers.

            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. f”
            (4/26/14)
            http://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/26/scrapbook-sixty-two/

          • Lori,

            Question posted 7/1/2014:

            Dear Forrest,

            You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

            a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
            b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

            Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

            No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?

            Your question reminds me of another: You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f

            Lori, The 35 Miles is the distance to the treasure. From where you begin your journey to WWWH and then from WWWH to the treasure chest. All IMO

            You must Past the Treasure location to get to WWWH..

            Aberrations abound in the Book… that is one of many IMO. Why would he even give the speed limit? It’s irrelevant.

      • Blex. I’ve looked into it also and I think the school itself is a hint to what they would have been doing way out there on their way to Montana. He says his dad was really proud to show him the sign. It’s curious his dad would take pride in something he didn’t have a part in making- and then Forrest felt it important to share it in the book without a context.
        It’s one of those Non sequitur lines that really stick out for me. IMO

        • Matt – I agree that it’s a line that stands out. In the context of the chapter, I’ve always assumed that the schoolhouse was a detour along the drive to or from Yellowstone from Temple, but I wonder if it could have been somewhere else like on a day-trip drive from YNP to somewhere else in Wyoming?

      • Oz10,
        I doubt it. That is not 50 miles out of the way.
        They stopped at Cody to visit the museum every year en route to Yellowstone, so that wouldn’t fit the 50 miles description. Nice find though.

        – Lori

        • Hi Lori, how do you suppose little Fenn was able to measure with precision 50 miles from Cody down a dirt road??? How do you know he didn’t mean 50 miles round trip? Sounds like 50 was a round-up number.

          • Hello Oz10. Depending upon how young Mr. Fenn was at this time, I’m not sure which kid would care to know how far the school was unless was told. To me, it was a destination his father chose, and it’s more about the quote above the door.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • I agree. I remember looking for the author of that quote but couldn’t find who it was. It is engraved above the entrance to Kepner Hall at the University of North Colorado. Only there it reads ‘Whoso teaches a child labors with God in his workshop’. If it was a known motto back then and it made it to the entrance of UNC, must have an origin…

          • Oz10,
            I don’t believe he meant EXACTLY 50 miles, any more than their annual trip to Yellowstone was EXACTLY 1,600 miles despite the fact that he uses that number more than once.

            I assumed from the links you posted and your comment “Maybe this one?” that you meant Valley Elementary School referenced in the link.

            Valley Elementary School • 3566 Southfork Road • Cody, WY 82414 is not a distance of 50 miles (round trip or otherwise) from Cody, WY.

            Mr. Fenn also made those trips when he was not so little, and it is possible that his estimation of distance improved over time. I am also certain that two decades of military service, training and experience might have helped when he wrote that distance in the book.

            Or maybe, he was being a typical kid and exaggerating that it was far out of their way because he had no interest in going there. He was in a hurry to get to Yellowstone to start his summer.

            JMO
            -Lori

          • Oz10 – If they were going at 35 mph on average, then maybe Forrest remembered it more as about an hour-and-a-half long detour and came up with the 50-mile approximation that way?

          • Has anyone ever asked FF how long (time wise) it took him to hide the chest from the time he got in a car with it to the time he left it where it is hidden?

            -Ann

          • Oz10: the quote has often been attributed to American educational reformer Horace Mann.

          • Lou Lee,

            Thank you for the info, though that wasn’t quite what I was referring to. I meant ore along the lines of duration from when FF set out with the chest to leaving it all behind at the final location. I know about the two trips from the car in an afternoon. Has he ever identified anything beyond that in terms of the duration?

            -Ann

  72. It’s *about* 50 miles to UNC Greeley from what would have been the main route to either Cody or WestY. Hardly a one room school house even back in Forrest’s day…but the quote above the door of the Teachers College is identical, the location is very close to the Wyoming border, and perhaps you can connect the dots from there. It was probably a one room Teachers College in the 30s and 40s.

  73. Things that make you go hmmmm on a day like 2-4-20… have tried to back out from the numbers rabbit hole, but they consume me. TWO trips… one by plane, one by car. Only Amos knows. Speaking of crossovers, in ten days, I will be the same age as the year in which my mom was born, and vice versa.

  74. Am posting this on OnE, in hopes that it is topical and for a friend who has a lot more decorum than I.
    NEWBIES & a few others :::please do as much reading of past HOD verbiage as possible afore making statements of previous well covered subject.
    ALSO, IT takes a lot of gall to seemingly ask others of their solves..
    imo
    Batty

    • Batty,

      Appreciate your sentiments. As one of the newer people interested in the Chase, I can assure you if I had the time to read everything there is to read on the subject I would, but I don’t. And I don’t believe I myself have asked anyone anything specific about their solves but if my questions have raised that concern, then please feel free to pass over the question. I see this as an open forum where those who may be new to everything can learn a great deal from those who have been here longer. I do not go into an institution of higher learning and expect to have to learn everything on my own in order to potentially be able to contribute to the work at hand. I do, however, rely on the expertise and knowledge accumulated by those who have been through the courses at the institution or who may be teaching a class there. And it is often the case, that teachers ;earn just as much, if not more, from their pupils as the pupils do from them.

      I imagine there may be some level of hesitancy or certain degree of mistrust when it comes to sharing “too much” information. But that is really only a concern for those who feel so strongly that they have come up with the correct solve. And there is no harm done by those asking if those who wish not to share choose not to share. I remind the general public that I come from a scientific/mathematic background where the sharing of ideas is encouraged as it adds to the likelihood of solving some rather serious problems. Finding FF’s chest, while not as serious, may certainly be held more dear to some than most. I sympathize with those who do not wish to share. I ask that you not criticize those of us merely asking questions that don’t need to be answered. NO one is forcing anyone’s hand here. And I certainly don’t have enough skin in the game to keep my thoughts to myself.

      Just as in the world of science and math, if one person can do it, everyone can do it. Being the first one to do it is great, but that doesn’t mean you’ll be the only one to do it. So while there are those who are waiting for spring to test their propositions, we ought not hinder others from further exploration should none of those propositions pan out. Show me the chest and Ill ask you how you did it. Until then, I am just asking questions. In either case you are free to answer the questions as you please, even if that means not answering them. And I ought to be free to ask. All IMO.

      -Ann

  75. Forrest, you talk about the clues being difficult to solve (opposite being easy) yet that the solutions are simple (opposite being complex). Yet when I read the stories of other searchers, I often think that their solutions to the clues tend to be either easy solutions or made out to be very complex and over-thought. Are there any suggestions you would give in approaching the clues and solving them? ~Craig

    Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f… July 06, 2014.

    How was Forrests’ SC Book 246, “The Promise of a Dream” put together? So simple a very young child could see it, yet it was a dream fulfilled, a part of his “Bucket List” so let’s look a little deeper into what motivated the profundity of his expressing without apology it is written IMP for us Big Kids who really never grew up, Catcher in the Rye, or “Thrill Book” and Too Far Book, each one is simply written yet extremely sublime, somethings seem simple on the surface but are like these words, which we all can agree were not invented by Forrest, but sublimely repurposed, Where Warm Waters Halt…the first clue in this riddle and if it took ff 15 years to create, it is much deeper that a hot pool of a volcanically heated vent, it is probably a spiritual place in his Church in the Mountains, otherwise it is shallow and does not tell us what he considered as IMPORTANT LITERATURE>>see a river runs through it, pg9, a border runs through it and if you are on the right track, a thread of significant spiritual purpose runs through it. It is simple in my opinion, but it makes perfect sense in a simple world where we must journey to find the answers.

    TT

    • TT – As to your last paragraph, a river DOES run through ‘IT’, and so does a Park Boundary, in my Baker’S Hole Solve.

      And I believe Campbell’s Heroes Journey runs through Forrest’s Poem. Not the traditional church kind of Spiritual. More like a backwardS.bike ‘S’ kind of Spiritual (my blaZe/blaSe). Also found in the epic poem, called, “Beowulf”, which happens to begin with a ‘So’:

      https://www.instagram.com/p/B8KNrVrhr2E/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

      Love Ben’s photography and his words. Met him on Baldy, out Warm Springs, a few Winters ago, while taking shots of a slalom ski race. Note: that he mentions ‘stifled’, also, Tall Andrew. I love thoughtful men, who excel at Art & Craft. Like, Forrest.

      • wayfinding~ the spatial awareness to quickly scan all signs at all times. The signs must first be recognized or discovered and there proximity kept in contact with in relation to constantly.which increasingly intensifies in the unknown expanse of space.The ability to detect multiple signs at high rates of speed and hold on to all subject matter become increasingly intense. What looks to be chaos is speed & volume in relativity to the norm. How do the deaf hear? how do the blind see? Gauges.It takes a masterful peace to see all potential. Interesting to me is the speed at which the mind is moving yet the letters on the page are standing completely still not moving in any direction.

    • I’m beginning to think that Forrest named a star. No ones going to stumble upon it. Once upon a Star. Star fishing. But we need to use the right map, there are multiple places where you can name a star. Then we need to marry the two, The poem and the map. Does anyone know where you can see lists of stars that are named. Remember the rules, no name calling, maybe just a hint.

      • RMT, In my solve it is easier than that. Look at the cover of that book as a map. What are you searching for when fishing? Fish. So what you are searching for is going to be where in the image?
        Once you get that, try to figure out what each thing in the image represents. When I figured out what the cover of that book was I laughed out loud. Again, this is just according to my solve. I could be wrong, but you just have to be able to look at things from all directions.

          • Jojo – Where Forrest’s fishing line crosses the shoreline forms an ‘X’, if you rotate that image. Could that correspond to the ‘X’ Forrest said he wasn’t going to put on a map for someone? Could that book cover be an imaginative sort of ‘map substitute’?

            I have imagined Forrest standing at one of his favorite fishing holes, quite near my hidey spot at Baker’S Hole.

    • Tom, I think he said “simplify” rather than “keep it simple”. And according to my solve, that difference does matter.

  76. This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the newest Odds n Ends page.

Comments are closed.