The Hidey Space…

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This is the place to discuss the the space where the chest is hidden. Is it in a cave, a hole in the ground, in a river or creek, behind a waterfall, out in the open? Tell us what you think the resting place for the chest looks like.

504 thoughts on “The Hidey Space…

  1. i just saw this page pop up in my email. my thougts is that it has be under the dirt. thats the only brown i could figure. thats pretty simple.

    • Billy – I like your “simple” thinking.
      Definitely under the dirt is a possibility
      but don’t forget the falling leaves.

      • i think i saw some thing about keep it simple and seems like some of you are make it to hard. fallen leaves dont matter. but i havent been in it as long as you all. their sure are some far out coments. but maybe your thinkin to hard. i dont know. thaks. does any body know why theirs no like button.

        • Great thoughts Billy, but be careful to discount the information not worthy of knowing. Those ‘far out’ comments you speak of could be significant. If there are falling (tree) leaves, then there are trees nearby. Simple thought, right?

          • i see your thinkin but i dont get it. my grandad once found a gold coin from way back. he told me a leader is the example not the exeption. maybe im not a leader and just the exeption. this is to hard for me. thanks. when i was young we played hide and seek. i never heard of hidey seek before.

          • None of us are “out of the woods” yet… but rather, “brave and IN the wood”? 😉 Maybe it’s time to turn over another leaf…

    • Why am I reminded of “Educating Ardi” ?
      If you haven’t listened to Cynthia read it, you should.
      Wonderful and colorful book.

      • im sorry. maybe i shouldnt be here cause i dont understand. how can i look down at the leaves but not the dirt. i don’t understand but i thank you from the bottom of my heart. i use to find stuff way under the leaves in hide and seek. could the treasure just be at the bottom of the brown leaves.

        • Billy –
          It’s not a matter of being smart;
          as you can see, none of us have yet to find the treasure.

          The treasure will be where YOU find it.
          Let your confidence and your heart guide you.

          • ” Look quickly down your quest to cease. ”
            This in my mind implies that the treasure is underfoot.
            If a searcher is in the right place they may very well be standing on it. Simple enough?

            Hdd

  2. We recently heard that the hidey space is isolated (and that definition is important).

    A reasonable searcher will be following roads and trails to get as close as possible to the hidey space. So how far away is the hidey space from the trail or path or road?

    From the many ATF statements, it seems reasonable to me that 200 or 500 feet is a good number for a first guess. And now we have “isolated” and its definition. And some nice sunshine..

    A picture is being painted, I think, what the hidey space looks like from the trail..

      • Jake,,
        A house sits 500′ feet from a road… Vehicles and pedestrians traffic by, but most never go to the house…Is that house isolated??

        Just out of curiosity, which meaning of the word are you using? In regards to 500′

        • 500′ = Five hundred feet as the standard measurement system.
          According to Fenn’s definition of people wouldn’t normally go there.

        • IMO, the 500′ reference isn’t part of the “isolated” one would typically associate with the term – however a place could be “isolated” by the nature of the area, even if it is only 500′ from a busy location (More explanation on this towards the end of my comment).
          There are many places in the Rockies that are “isolated”, even while you are still on a road. One can be on a road that is many, many miles from the nearest farm (or other) habitation.
          Also, isolated, does not always mean that no one goes there. An “isolated” stretch of river, may simply mean one has to do some walking to get there, yet may meet other fishermen at said location. Even a town full of people can be “isolated” if it is far from other communities, or has poor access in and out… such as bad roads, or accessible only by boat etc. – at least the term “isolated” can be used in that sense.
          This ties into my thoughts on “close proximity”. A man made trail might be fifty feet away from where one is standing, but there can be a chasm in between where you are and the trail is… personally I would not consider that trail as being in “close” proximity unless there were a means of safely and quickly getting to the trail without making a long detour – yet in an as the crow flies sense, it would be in close proximity… so it is how one defines it in varying circumstances IMO.
          With that in mind, I think many people could walk past the hidey spot – say 500′ away – whether that was 500′ from a parking spot or man made trail etc. – and for that matter may not easily get closer than that 500′ without having to take a long walk to get there (safely).
          Could one be in or around Yellowstone, with lots of traffic going by, or sitting in a parking lot near a fishing hole and be 500′ away from the hidey spot, yet it being where no one would accidentally stumble across it… because they would have to take a longer hike to actually reach that destination because there is no ‘direct’ access to it?
          For example, let’s say the hidey spot is ‘500 feet across from where one is standing on the bank (at an “overlook”) of a raging (uncrossable) river. Maybe the river is only ‘200 feet wide and the hidey spot is ‘300 feet beyond the opposite bank… so is the hidey spot isolated or remote even though hundreds of tourists might visit the side opposite? Depending on the distance one has to walk or drive to get to where they can even access the other side might make a strong case for ‘isolated’, ‘remote’ or ‘not in close proximity’. In such a case, I can see individuals either finding the first two clues correctly, or even accidentally, and then going on past the other clues because they didn’t take the time/effort or whatever might be involved to get to where the hidey spot really is.
          When I think of it like this, I wonder if I am ruling out a location because I am failing to take into consideration that it might just be a hop skip and a jump away as the crow flies, but maybe a significant distance to get to the other side where I need to be?
          So I agree with Jake that it is likely a place that people go – maybe even a whole lot of people go – and it is ‘500 feet from there… but not necessarily where anyone would actually go accidentally. Otherwise someone would likely have come across the TC by now. My thoughts only…

      • Hi Jake,

        That is my thinking as well.
        FF says there is no trail in “very close proximity”, so I take that to mean 500′. The searchers who were within 200′ could have been searching off-trail.

        I think the term “isolated” is important. It could explain why people would not normally go there; why there is only one way to get there, and FF went the same route in reverse to get back to his car; why that is the only way to his knowledge, etc.

        JMO
        -Lori

        • I’m glad to see us agree.
          Quality is better than quantity.
          I would worry if the usuals would agree.
          Best to be “isolated”.

      • jeez Jake

        “500′ from where people normally go”?

        do you own a Taco Bell in Santa Fe by any chance?

        i mean..is this a 2for1 TTOTC promotional thing..or?
        😛

    • If you head up that way and back down the other side about 2200 feet you will come to a long corridor there you will find the grave site of F except he will not be there, why? Because there is no more gravestone, meaning that only F and Fjr knows of the location.

    • Muset,

      Why as close as possible to the ‘hide”?
      It’s quite possible that a hike is needed to get to all the clues reference.
      I never understood why a lot of folks (in general) seem to think the first clue is near a parking location.

      • Only the last clue is important for visualizing the hidey space, I think.

        IMO, a lot of hiking over several years is required to figure out all the clues..

  3. IMO the Hidey Space is a solitary tree (likely a Juniper) not terribly far off of a trail and obviously near water. Likely the tree stands alone and has limbs that stretch downward to near the ground. I think Mr. Fenn may have dragged a few extra limbs up near the trunk to further hide the chest. Since I recently read that he said the place where the chest is hidden is in the sunshine, even though the chest is not, I think this fits with the other information from various other scrapbook comments. I also think the tree may have talll grasses or sagebushes surrounding it and there may be two other trees in near proximity (50′). I am looking for a grouping of three trees, two smaller ones, one larger one with the chest. All that said, it still doesn’t narrow down the search much…..

  4. The Treasure isn’t buried under ground, it isn’t under water, it isn’t hidden in either a man made or natural shelter and it isn’t on top of a mountain or hard to find once one knows the general area in which it is located. My guess is it is hiding in plain sight, meaning it is in a forest filled valley, on the ground, not perched in some tree. My fantasy is the blaze could be the sun shining through the prisms of sprayed water from a water fall, that in a certain angle creates the image of a rainbow, at the end of which lies the treasure chest, on the ground between evergreen trees. (I don’t know if anyone has thought of it before, but probably some have, the fact that Forrest’s first name has to do with a collection of trees and that his last name Fenn could be interpreted as grass, a field of grass, a forest glenn). This is the image I have had of where the treasure might be since I first started thinking about it. Maybe the best way to find the treasure is in a process of eliminating where it can’t be. Like searching for love is in negation of all the things love is not. If you are brave and in the wood – forest?

    • Just a small correction. Forrest did not say that it is not buried. He corrected people in the media who said that he had said that it is buried. He told them that he did not say that it is buried, but he also did not say that it wasn’t.

  5. FF said that his initial plan was to die next to the chest. So it has to be a place where his dead body cannot be eaten by wild animals or large birds. His bones should stay intact. What place that is, I don’t know. He said is not a cave or under water..
    I wonder what altitude is too high, but under 10,200 feet, for bears, cats, wolves, etc
    And it’s under the Sun a great portion of the day but not all day….

    • I don’t believe the hidey space is safe from animal invasion/feeding in this kind
      of circumstance. I believe that FF knows this.

      • Hey Billy .. I just saw your posts. I think its great your searching for the treasure. It is real and you can find it too. I used to play a game Runescape and I had a clan of 4000 people from all around the world and it gave me something to do. I met alot of people like yourself and people who were sick and people who just needed to have fun being a part of something. I have figured this out and you can too. All you have to do is think in the simplest form. Don’t add any special mathmatics or things of those sorts. The books in my opinion are needed and Google earth. Once you put it all together the story comes together and you will understand. Don’t let anyone discourage you from using your way of thinking. As Forrest said.. only you can think your thoughts! That’s what makes us all different. Who’s to say their different is any different then yours? You can solve this just like anyone else! Follow your dreams! BC

    • Pablo I noticed an entry where you were not convinced that Indulgence could be on a South Facing slope or ridge? Am I correct about that?

      I live in the extreme Southern part if the Rocky Mountains near Santa Fe, NM and I can assure you if the TC is not on a Southern Slope or Ledge etc, then it’s location is not IN SUN much of the day, especially in Winter.

      As yourself why ff would emphasize the word KNOWLEGE notice Lege, not ledge, when he cast the bronze bells and jars… See the Joker is a work, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyoka…The spirit of Heyoka is alive in the Chase… any time ff mispells an easy word like Knowledge, or Meryl for Merle Haggard, pay attention something is just not what it seems…https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/10/scrapbook-two_hundred-eleven/

      Why would he be fiddling with the Radio lookin for Me and Bobby McGee?

      What has that got to do with a Box Elder Tree?

      TT

  6. FF said it’s not in a cave. But if it’s not at least a “cave-let” or hollowed-out space in rock, protected from the elements by an overhang, I would be very surprised. Also I suspect the blaze is an emblem on some sort of rock lid over the chest in the cave, so the chest is not sitting out in the open, but it’s not buried (per se) either.

  7. I believe that finding the Hidey Spot is the most difficult part of TTOTC after finding The Blaze. If you find The Blaze, you will be very close, but still need to know how to “Look Quickly Down.” I think that clue will be the most difficult…and GE won’t help you with it.

    All IMHO

  8. Missing Image-

    I posted an image of an interesting location that remains in line with the new information regarding the hidey spot. I wanted to repost it here but am unable to find it. Can someone please help! Thank you.

    -Ann

    • AHHA!

      I have just recreated a link for it! So here is that image again for those interested in a location fitting the descriptive criteria:

      https://postimg.cc/H8zjqC01

      I have not yet been able to rule this location out yet. And when zooming in, there appears to b a shiny squarish object (somewhere in the brave’s head). This object is larger than the dimensions of FF’s chest but it could be the blaze, with the chest in/under it. All IMO of course.

      -Ann

      • Isolated-

        You will note the obvious road in the image. I just wanted to add that there are dirt “paths/roads” within the brave, likely to be places less traveled. Just saying…..Still don’t have a special connect to FF but it’s fun to imagine!

        -Ann (IMO)

  9. The 500 feet and 200 feet distances from the hidey space sure do seem to captivate all of us, has anyone determined if Forrest indeed meant distance rather than elevation?

    Pauley T

    • 500′ on the upside, 200′ on the downside. Quite clever. Now riddle me this: no leaves, no flagstone, no cave, not in water, not in tree, not under rock, where am I? Do you get the point? Worth the cold, not in the cold Spallie. Can it be more obvious? Sigh. Not looking for Brown. Now where is my flashlight?
      Finder

    • Hello, this is Billy’s mom. Yes, the real McCoy! If you think making fun of “challenged” kids is funny, then the more power to you! He has the right to speak, just like everyone else. He also has the right to look for treasure, just like everyone else!

      And we wonder how discrimination and hatred erupts!

      I don’t mean to be rude, but I can only say one thing. I hope Billy DOES find the treasure. Then he could show you all!

      • If you are both legit, many apologies to you and Billy. But I hope you understand why the uncertainty here. There are some who would love to try and be “funny”. I certainly would ( and i think I can speak for Blex as well on this) never, ever make fun of your son or anyone else who is genuinely a “challenged” person as you say.

        Welcome to you both and I hope apologies are accepted. This shows how communicating thru electronic means can be misleading.

        • Dal/Chris – I’ve said my piece, but it’s your blog and you can make a final call on the nuking.

          Geysergirl – You are a very kind person, and yes what you wrote would absolutely speak for me if I had even the slightest suspicion that this commenter actually was a mentally challenged person and his mother. But I am certain that this is a person having fun at the expense of actual mentally challenged people. That’s all from me on this.

          • Yes, it is sad that we can judge, delete, and throw away something easier than confronting the issue.

            I have apologized… the door stands open.

        • I would never, ever intentionally make fun of a mentally challenged child. And that is my point. I’ve known quite a few kids in that are in that position and it is all too hard for them to fit into society because they are “supposedly” not smart enough.

          My sincere apologies for sounding rude. Unfortunately, there is not a mentally challenged website for kids that they can attend, so they have the misfortune of trying to fit into those that are not.

          Believe me, I have to confront this issue all the time. And we should be innocent until proven guilty. But it seems to me that there are some mental challenged people here also.

          Again, rudeness is not intended, but a similar challenge stands before everyones with this treasure, and affects everyone here. If Billy doesn’t belong here, because he can’t figure it out, then why does anyone else think that they have the “smarts” to belong here? Why is it that the treasure hasn’t been found in over 9 years? Don’t you think that most people here fit into Billy’s category?

          All I can do is hope for a better world.

          • Once again, this was a bad mistake of which I take all responsibility for on behalf of my son.

            I apologize, it will never happen again.

          • Hey Billy..maybe I could help you along if you need some help.two minds are better than one and I’m pretty smart. Not trying to brag but I’m no slouch.

        • Sorry, I saw your post too late. Yes, electronic communication lacks the warmth for humanitarianism and can be very misleading. I am as guilty as all. I hope someday the world can find peace.

          So once again, I apologize for my rant.

          • There is no need for apologies. I once said some mean things to a man that I greatly admire, only because I thought he was destroying my picture as it sat upon my easel. However, after looking over the painting for a long time, I realized what he had done. You see, the truth is, I have never been a very good painter, which is why he assisted me in the first place. Now my painting is nearly complete, with beautiful mountains, green forests, and the blazing sunshine, as it crests over the deep blue.
            I learned an important lesson that day. I told myself that I will never jump to such conclusions without first dialing in the right frequency. If it is correctly in tune, communication will smoothly flow like the Nile River.

      • Hi Billy’s mom,
        I assure you that nobody here is prejudiced against kids, challenged or otherwise. You might have avoided all of this had you written your statement beforehand. It’s nice that your son is interested in treasure hunting, but this site is plagued with pranksters and it’s members have to be ever watchful for such activity. Also this is a family site but some of the posts may not be appropriate for young children. IMO.

        • randawg, It is my opinion that this is the perfect place for a kid, posts and all. Dal keeps all in check. BilllyArdy, this poem was written for you, and all kids. Remember Forrest said a kid may have an advantage over all these adults. Be safe, always have a search partner when going BOTG. g

      • Hey Billy .. I just saw your posts. I think its great your searching for the treasure. It is real and you can find it too. I used to play a game Runescape and I had a clan of 4000 people from all around the world and it gave me something to do. I met alot of people like yourself and people who were sick and people who just needed to have fun being a part of something. I have figured this out and you can too. All you have to do is think in the simplest form. Don’t add any special mathmatics or things of those sorts. The books in my opinion are needed and Google earth. Once you put it all together the story comes together and you will understand. Don’t let anyone discourage you from using your way of thinking. As Forrest said.. only you can think your thoughts! That’s what makes us all different. Who’s to say their different is any different then yours? You can solve this just like anyone else! Follow your dreams! BC

    • That has kinda been my thinking ( and probably a lot of other people’s) as well Michael. But maybe, just a maybe, that is exactly why that is NOT what the hidey spot looks like. More to think about……

    • reminds me of the olive jar with a green lid where the olives looked like they had been placed one at a time. never figured out why that was in the story anyway it seemed out of place. i read the olive people do this to green olives so they can precisely fill the jar and add the brine so the olives dont move afterwards and soak up the brine.

    • Hey Michael, I will one up you and raise you to 10,200′ and this arrowhead is in the skull of a Rushmore size Bison…er buffalo? within a shot distance is a memorial to a Maple Leaf President stolen, like for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee: TT

        • Hey Tom.
          Liked the photo you posted but we have been there a few times and searched all around there. First of all it is very hard to get there and when you do get there it is not actually an arrow head ion a single rock. It is actually 2 rocks that at a certain distance gives you the perspective as being an arrow in one rock. Way too hard of a hike for an 80 year old man with a treasure to do twice in a day.

          • Kee, everyone should look at some of the buffalo head/skulls Forrest owns, see SCBook 240, about my comment to him about Paul Dyke and the “Sundance Ritual” Plains Indians, I know one of his shulls has an embedded arrowhead that struck the animal in the skull but it survived and the bone grew around it and if you go on Google Earth and look at the Garfield Memorial Tunnel you can clearly see where the archway 354 is on that image of a buffalo head, now see SCBook 230 and a Buffalo Nickle, and IRon Head circa 1930, why is it next to his golf ball that made a hole in one? Cause he already used Bingo in SCBook 169, he published it 5 days after Winter Thoughts by TT.

            Look at SC Book 171 and 173 does something ring a train bell? What about SC Book 245, 3rd pic is that a coverd RR Bridge and why is it the same width as Narrow Gague? I rest my case..

            TT

          • Just a PS Kee, look at his answer in Pilot lingo on this SCBook 242, lets keep our nose up and clean, no virus up here…Just look up to heaven and see the blaze, I already posted it …TT

  10. In the Odds n’ Ends thread, and in response to a previous comment, Seeker said: “OR fenn created the hidey spot? A place that didn’t exist when he was a kid?”
    ———————————————————————–

    Seeker, I think I know what you mean.

    But nobody can create a “place” on the Earth’s surface. The location where the chest is hidden has always been a “place”, even if it had been transformed from water to land or vice versa.

    Now he may have rearranged or changed this existing place to create a hidey spot. But Forrest is not so powerful as to be able to “create” a “place” out of thin air.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • Ken: if Forrest dug a shallow pit in which to place the treasure chest, then yes: that *would* be creating a place out of thin air (or more accurately, a place OF thin air, lol) that did not exist prior to his being there. Not saying that’s how the treasure is hidden, but it’s certainly one possible scenario.

      • Right,
        If an empty lot was a place, at one time, and now sits a building …the change to the place is the clue… Line of thinking.
        Another idea that is popular: a dark stone as a marker… The place the stone sits was always there, but the placing of the stone create a new place, for a reason,
        that was not there prior… representing a clue.

          • Lori,

            Thanks for the link. I found this one interesting:

            *If you have a searching partner, best to have them wait in the car.” f (Posted October 7th, 2016)

            Seems to me the chest can’t be far from the car, otherwise why not have someone walk with yo to help carry the chest?

            -Ann

          • Ann,
            My impression is that he meant:
            “Trust no one.”

            The love of money is the root of all evil. People have been murdered for much less than millions of dollars in gold and jewels in an “isolated” location.

            Be smart. Be safe.

          • Lori,

            I would hope that’s not what he meant, but good points none the less. I suppose I’d need more context. Glad to hear from you though!!!

            -Ann

          • Hi Lori … yes we all know about that quote from Forrest. But are you referring to something more substantive, in that very long page you link to?

        • Seeker, what if that lot or place at one time had another name, like when ff was young? Would your description change or wood just the name be changed to protect the innocent ? TT

      • zaphod … no sir, a “shallow pit” would not be “creating a place out of thin air”.

        The shallow pit would still have exactly the same latitude and longitude as the ground prior to the to the pit being dug.

        A geographic “place” on the Earth’s surface remains the same, regardless of how it is changed by humans.

        All through the years on this chase, I have seen massive evidence of searchers having only shallow, superficial understanding of geographic concepts.

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ken – Really do like a lot of your thoughts, but maybe this one
          “A geographic “place” on the Earth’s surface remains the same, regardless of how it is changed by humans,” could be interpreted another way as well.

          Is it as you state above or is it
          A geographic “location” on the Earth’s surface remains the same, regardless of how it is changed by humans, but the “place” as we know it could be changed.

          Just more food for thought.

          • Geysergirl,

            In the idea… a place is normally smaller than a location. Kinda along the lines of; a place can be within a location, but not so much as location within a place.

            Location vs. places; {a quick google search}
            Relative *location* describes a *place* with respect to its environment and its connection to other places. Place describes the human and physical characteristics of a location. Physical characteristics include a description such things as the mountains, rivers, beaches, topography, and animal and plant life of a place.

            The reason for bring this is is fenn’s comment; I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.
            “The path” imo, is the places at the Location the clues can be found. The question is how big are the place within a certain location.
            Then again, perceptive is needed as well… lot of places can fit into a small location.
            Just sayin….

          • Seeker – I think we are on the same page, you are just describing what I meant a little better and in more detail.

            But you mentioned something else that ff said:
            “I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            I always assumed he meant “no certainty of the location beforehand” as meaning the location of the hidden spot. But what are your thoughts on this meaning the location of WWWH?

          • Geysergirl,

            To answer your question can be two fold or one or the other, line of thinking.

            1. Location for me means; where a searcher goes to [ from their home ] to where all the clues are at.
            Example; I have a 10 acre parcel… this would be considered “the location.” Within this location there are places… a wooded area, a creek, a house, a driveway, garage, tool-shed, stone wall, a target stand… etc. each having their own *place* with in a *location*… MY property. Do you see what I’m saying?

            2. I can also imagine WWsH being fenn’s special place [ location ] and the first clue at the same time.

            It could all depend on what fenn meant by; Your destination is small, but its location is huge .

            How is huge meant here?
            Of Size?
            Of Importance?
            Of perspective to the size of the item hidden? Not unlike a mud puddle to an ant looks like an ocean.

            So, could a 10 acre piece land [location] be huge to a spot [10″ sq] under a shed?
            LOL would you consider 10 acre as huge?… it really falls down to perceptive. Kinda like the cracks in fenn’s hands when he described them as canyons.

            WWsH could be the *location* as to a reason it is huge, other than its size.
            or
            The location where all the clues are at could be huge for a different reason, other than size as well.

            I’m reminded of the word *admired* to mean; high regards or approval.

            So here’s a couple of questions;
            Are the description of the *hand* and *ant* a type of “very subtle hints” to help with the clues, idea?
            Do they give thought to how geography can be seen from different perspectives?

          • Seeker – I hear where you are coming from and agree.

            But just a few comments on: “Your destination is small, but its location is huge.”

            Your destination: Per Lori below: a place to which one is journeying ( in this case, it would be to the exact spot the treasure lies) is small
            but your location: (the “search area that holds the destination”) is huge.

            “How is huge meant here?
            Of Size?
            Of Importance?
            Of perspective to the size of the item hidden?”

            The answer may be yes to all of those. But the real question to me is does it all really matter in the end? I mean the bottom line is there’s a small chest somewhere out in the vast area of the Rocky mountains waiting to be found!

          • Geysergirl,

            I mentioned something about your question in a response to Zap below [time stamp 12:2pm.
            Give it a read and ell me what ya think.

            I do considered the size to a possible search location, as important, because of a few reasons… ‘one’ being the movement of the RM’s impact on it all.
            But there are other reasons as well.

        • Ken: geographic places change continuously — rivers change course, ephemeral creeks appear and disappear, mountains rise or fall, plates shift, forests burn, etc. The one thing you can say for sure about geographic places is that they are NOT static.

          If you are talking about *coordinates* of those places, those, too are constantly changing: in some case by many meters per decade. Thus the reasons detailed maps have geoids and epochs associated with them.

          • Seeker,

            I agree.
            I might also add that the “canyons” in FF’s hands were caused by washing dishes (warm water?).

            The quote compares “destination” with “location”.
            I think you gave a good definition of “location”.

            Definition of “destination”:

            1 : the purpose for which something is predetermined or destined
            2 : an act of appointing, setting aside for a purpose, or predetermining
            3 : a place to which one is journeying or to which something is sent
            4 : a place worthy of travel or an extended visit

            I think #3 and #4 are appropriate. 🙂

            -Lori

          • Zap,
            Simply… things change, right?

            LOL it doesn’t matter to me what caused the imaginary dug hole to move out of “place” Or even if its Lat n long shift at all…
            Don’t we need to ask our selves why those changes can affect an outcome to be more difficult?

            There has been discussions before on this topic, however, we are looking for a hidey spot that hold a 10″ sq item.
            Sure, sure, erosion,YS pops, earth quakes, can shift large amount of land… But many of those events are truly unknown events when time comes into play.

            My thoughts go to the idea of why a more normal or a constant change [for lack of better terms] of the RM’s will have an impact?

            What kinda preciseness is expected from the clues, are we to think about?
            I think it is important to attempt thinking about it.
            I mean, how long did that mountain stand strong at Earth Quake Lake before it slid off its base?

            fenn was thinking “down the road” when creating the poem and knew of the changes over time in any given area of the RM’s range… But what could concern him… as far as the accuracy-?- exactness-?- details-?- when it come to the clues and how they lead us “precisely” to the chest?

            I think… in this case… size might matter.
            The location of the clues where the direct path can be found, idea… to allow a finding of a hidey spot with some kinda of safety net… over a long period of time.
            This is ‘one’ reason; miles between clues theories don’t make sense to me.

          • Seeker – so if I’m following you correctly in your response to Zap, you are saying that a “smaller search area” where clues are closer together may help with the accuracy of the clues thru time due to the less likely hood of any major (barring earthquakes or any other massive strike by mother nature) changes to the geographic area. A small area would be more inclined to stay true to the clues. Is that correct? If so, I think you may have a valid point, but like everything else here, one that can, I’m sure, be disputed by someone else. Zap….lol! 🙂

          • zaphod …

            Geographic FEATURES change continuously, not places.

            But even with an MS degree in the field of Geography, I’m obviously not going to change any minds here, among posters.

            So I’ll quit trying.

            It’s a good thing Forrest doesn’t have to justify any information about where the chest is or what the clues are; if he did, he’d be shouted out of the forum as being totally wrong.

            Ken (in Texas) 🙂

          • Geysergirl ~ *you are saying that a “smaller search area” where clues are closer together may help with the accuracy of the clues thru time…*

            Yep, but not only for the reason of geography and major changes, line of thinking.
            Many ATFs need consideration to possible size of a search area; Some highlights are;
            ~He was thinking down the road 1000’s of years.
            ~He made two trips…
            ~Walked less than a few miles… done in one afternoon…
            ~Followed his own clues when he hid the chest…
            ~knows about land movement and changes over time… {be it for any reason}…
            ~people figure the first couple clues and unfortunately walked past the chest {and seemingly, the remaining clues}
            ~Tells all there is no other way {to locate the chest} but to follow the clues as laid-out in the poem {no short cuts}…
            ~Implies we need ‘preciseness’ with the clues… {if being ‘precise’ is a factor, the large scale idea of geography can change quickly and unforeseen}.
            **I’ll add a thought; for a large scale idea to work well, it would need in points time through historical land changes that should be know of… *example only*… knowing of the ice-age, glacial movement, changes in the geography landscape due to those long time changes, line of thinking.** {basically, common taught history of Earth}

            Considering what we have been told; a smaller scale search area is more likely… even a small single location that contains all the clues.

            The problem might be with the descriptions we read in the poem that give the illusion; each clue must be larger than it actually is as represented in the poem. A precondition notion of the reader for what clue should depicted place/location, in size.

            With that said; I admit the poem can be read as a large area… heck more than one state even, and even over a time span {been there done that}… but what makes more sense as to the things fenn has relayed over the years with the hundreds of comments, Q&As, interviews and elimination factors?

    • Hi, ya Ken, Seeker.

      If Forrest rearranged anything wouldn’t that fall under ” Structure “?
      Imho the hidey spot is a natural depression in a rock or under a rock.

      Hdd

      • HDD,

        By definition, the poem has structure of arrangement, and is directly related to the clues, right?

        The same idea relates to buried vs. hidden. Should an Item hidden become covered by debris, is it buried or hidden?
        It’s really too close to call.

        With that said, you use the word “rearranged”… OK
        I’ll use Zaps example; fenn picks up a flat stone [say 12”x12″], removes 5″ of soil, places the chest and puts the stone back in its exact spot, kicking a small pile of dirt so as not be seen as a pile… is that a rearranged structure, idea?
        Yet didn’t he just create a place that wasn’t there prior.. a hole or ‘cubby’ for a purpose? But is it a structure?

        Then again, lets utilize your depression Idea… the chest is placed within and covered in any manner [ but for some examples; another rock or twigs and leaves… Is that rearranging? Doesn’t that place take on a different meaning of “place” as to what a “clue” can be… when a kid vs. an adult?
        Is it now considered a structure?

        The point is; for a place not to exist when fenn was a kid [ such as the hidey place ] is it possible fenn created a place?

        On anther thread I gave another example of how a place can be new place [ by nature ] referring to a clue. [But first you wold have to agree a lake vs. a river are of two different places, line of thinking.]
        OK, Earth Quake Lake didn’t exist when fenn was a kid, but did after 1959. Regardless of land size [place size]… The original place no longer exist as a river.
        In fact, the river that was blocked by the slide was opened by man, yet a lake still remains… a new “place” was created by nature… the lake.

        Personal notes; a structure has supports, deliberately made.
        Support; bear all or part of the weight of; to hold or hold back something….
        Such as a road’s base and top deigned to carry the load[s] traveling on it. Or a beaver dam to create a pond area / place [for examples of the meaning of support involving “structure”]

        • Good afternoon Seeker,

          I agree with the first statement. The poem is structured.
          I am in the process of figuring out how that structure works.
          As for the second comment; Ummm seems to me that being buried by man and being buried by nature are two distinct animals. Being buried by man implies the desire to conceal from discovery by others. In this case, Forrest hides the chest and nature may very well bury it over time.
          From an abstract point of view, Forrest buried the chest in the poem… Whoa, now that’s a thought.

          In reply to Forrest moving dirt, I tend to think it could fall under the structure ideal. Example: In my younger days I had the pleasure of meandering through the countryside of Missouri.
          and I came upon a pothole carved in bedrock by water.
          Said pothole was big enough to form a very warm and pleasant place to sit and enjoy a summer’s day.

          I believe the place was always there. The name Forrest gave it did not exist before he hid the treasure.
          I do not think to move a rock could be considered as being a structure. A rock, a depression in the ground are both natural objects. As I type this I am getting this mental vision of a hillside with trees overlooking a plains type of area. ( under a tree? )

          Question: Does a falling tree in a forest make a sound if no one is there to hear it? Logic tells us yes. So I am applying the same logic to the hidey spot. I see your point, Quake lake is a good example. An interesting thought crossed my mind. ” The poem did not exist when Forrest was a kid.”

          I believe you are familiar with This video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg-BG9AOM0E

          Imho, Forrest dropped a huge clue. regarding the location of the chest when he stated the hidey spot is Remote.
          Off the top of my head for someone living in Australia, this is a true statement. It also implies a distant place. Forrest to say ” It is not a place one would normally go. So I believe that leaves out most tourist attractions.

          I realize I am handing out unique perspectives, which may lead someone to finding the chest. All good to me. I have to face my reality, which tells me I may not be in a position to retrieve the chest even if I knew its exact location. As a side comment: There was a lady early on in the chase, I encourage you to revisit your early research. You may have had the proper WWWH.

          HDD

          • HDD,
            To be clear, FF did not say “remote”. He said “Isolated” and was unsure of the definition at first. But then decided it was the correct word to use.

            Just sayin’

            -Lori

      • Hi HDD … To me, “structure” in the context of the poem’s clues refers to human changes of the earth’s surface. I don’t think Forrest “rearranged” anything; I think he simply left the chest in a place, without disturbing the natural environment. As you say, a “natural depression” or “under a rock” would make sense.; nothing disturbed. 🙂

  11. Hey Gang,

    Here’s a few other thoughts by Fenn on his special place:
    “That treasure chest I’ve said is in a very special place to me and if I get another disease, on my last dying gasp I’m gonna throw myself on top of that TC, and I’m gonna dare you to come find me.”
    He also said, “Which is best, laying on the ground on a treasure chest, your bones rotting in the sun, or laying in a hospital bed?”.
    And regarding the final resting place for himself and the treasure chest, he said, “I cannot think of any better place for my bones to rest for a few millennia.”
    To get more detailed about the intimate nature of himself with the chest, he said “I knew where I was going to hide the treasure chest, and with my last gasping breath I was going to go out there and fling myself on top of that treasure chest and let my bones go back to the dirt.”
    “The treasure is very definitely in the Rocky Mountains.”

    GCG

    • GCG, in these quotes we have:
      “I’m gonna throw myself on top of that TC,”
      “laying on the ground on a treasure chest… or laying on a hospital bed?”
      “was going to go out there and fling myself on top of that treasure chest”

      All of these sound to me that the chest is in a bit of a hole or pit. How else could resting your body on a chest be a good, and comfortable way to go out? Sure being in the outdoors in a special spot would be nice, but a bed does sound more comfortable than laying on a small bronze box.

      • Don’t forget: Page 143 TTOTC, “I had even plotted to have my bones rest forever, in silent repose, beside the treasure chest.”

        Beside, on top, …..I don’t think it matters any which way. The point is he is with his treasure.

        • ManOwar,
          I really like “silent repose.” It implies peace and tranquility, which sounds a lot like; contentment.

          And as we all know from Forrest, if you can find contentment, everything else has already fallen into place!

          GCG

          • GCG, Yes, it is contentment. Another quote from Forrest, page 125 TTOTC, “I will rest through all of time and space, pillowed down and scented in,” Sounds like more contentment. The place where he wanted to rest for all time must be some place. Above all it must be a peaceful place, isolated and quiet, maybe on a bed of pine needles under a large pinion pine. A place where there’s always a gentle breeze to make the scented pines sing their tune and him lying there beside his treasure chest that is snuggled under the roots in a natural opening caused by nature. That, I think would be a place of peace and contentment.

            l

    • Forrest picked an amazing place to go. He took a regular canyon, and built the taj mahal. Maybe that is what he does best? Taking regular things, and creating something beautiful out of it.

  12. I think Forrest told us what the area looks like in TTOC. It is a small waterfall and the mist at the bottom causes the chest to be wet.

  13. SB78
    “Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

    I think he has said this or something similar a few different times. IMO, this makes it pretty clear the chest is not buried, or at least if it is buried (note his comments on the word “buried”) then nature buried it, not f.

    • DistantLogic;

      I do not see how the quote that you posted can mean that the treasure is buried, or not.

      To me it says that it is not likely that anyone would get closer than 12 feet without solving the clues. Solving the clues will take the solver to within 12 feet, otherwise, it is unlikely that anyone would come that close (Since there is no logical reason for a person to be in that place – without solving the clues) JMO – JDA

  14. I honestly think that if/when the answers finally do come to light, We’re all gonna be kicking ourselves for over thinking it and not seeing what’s staring us all right in the face. It gonna be one of them things that seem really obvious once you know, but tricky in some kind of way until there pointed out. Myself included. All I do know is that i can’t wait for the answers.

    • You may be right Jason, but it can’t be too obvious or else someone would have figured it out by now. I think it is going to more along of the lines of “I would have never got it” or “I wish I would have thought about it that way”.

      • Yh i can see where your coming from Aaron, I hope it more along the lines of something i never would have got, id hate it to be something I could have figured out but just did not think of.

      • Hi Aaron: I think it’s going to be a combination of those. People will wish they had thought the right thoughts as far as figuring out WWWH. And I think most will probably say of the 3rd clue (and even more so, the blaze) that they never would have gotten it.

      • I think that the most amazing thing about the poem is that on first reading we all thought, “I can figure that out no problem”. Inside a simple sounding poem must be a deviously difficult riddle. With time we start to realize how difficult it is. Later we realize it’s even more difficult than that. Only the person who solves it will know how difficult it is, since the rest of us will probably hear the solution and assume that we could have figured it out if only (fill in your favorite excuse here).

        • IMO, only Mr. Fenn and the person that solves the puzzle will ever know how difficult it is/was. I have the feeling that the rest of the searchers will never learn the solution.
          IMO, neither Mr. Fenn nor the solver will ever release the solution and with the incentive gone, there is no way the poem will ever be solved again.

          • Yes, CostaRico … very insightful. I expect the general public will not be informed, either of the hidey spot or of the poem’s clues.

          • Geez….I hope you two are wrong! LOL! Never mind the treasure, but not knowing the ultimate solve would be like reading a mystery book and having the last page torn out! The “solving” part is what is the most fun and knowing that I was at least headed in the right direction would be some sort of closure for me. I could let my mind RIP on this one. LOL!

          • Geisergirl,
            Just think about the damage the 7% certifiable crazies could do to the site, after they find out that the treasure is gone.

          • Hi CostaRico,
            I agree with your idea about not releasing the solution to public. If TC is found what is the reason to know where?
            And if people know exact site there will be a crowd each summer. I’m not sure that Forrest will like the possibility that his dear place will be visited by hundreds tourists.
            Well, I join the club of searchers that will never disclosure TC site to public. And I am sure that Forrest will like this scenario.

        • My guess is Forrest would release the solve to the search community. These places he loves he wants to share with others imo.

          • I would definitely publish my solve unless FF specifically asked me not too.

            As for the crazies that might do something to that hallowed ground, I would build a shrine!

            Has anybody talked about Fenn Mountain?
            https://mapcarta.com/N357934821

            I know, I know… it has been discussed for years before I got here.

            -Lori

          • Lori,

            Didn’t know about Fenn Mountain. There are a few other geographical locations with the name of Fenn. Makes you wonder if any are named after him or the family.

            And I would guess most anyone who finds the chest would share with the world if for no other reason than to let the world know they figured it out. In the sciences, part of the thrill of a discovery or solving a difficult (especially age old) problem is taking prides in one’s work knowing that the effort paid off. When they split the atom they didn’t keep it from the world, even though some knew what it meant. It’s not like finding the chest would be a bad things, as some discoveries are, but rather a celebration. Not only do I think it would be hard for the person who succeeds to withhold such information, FF would likely let the world know so as not to perpetuate false hope. While it’s nice to get the family out of the house, it would be cruel to permit false hope or misleading (after the chest is found) to persist. Real time and money is spent by individuals every year in search of the chest. I don’t believe FF would want people to spend such valuable resources on an already solved puzzle. He would likely want them to still go outdoors but perhaps on their own accord or maybe because it’s just great to get out from time to time. All is IMO of course.

            -Ann

          • *Posted on October 3, 2014 by Jenny Kile

            Mr. Fenn, Should the chest, for example, be found today, would you be able to tell searchers that the chest has been found in the same day? ~Johnny Q

            Well Mr. Q, you present a question that’s hard to answer. There is so much talk on the blogs that whoever finds the treasure may be driven underground and not say anything to anyone.

            If I am convinced it has been found then I will announce it immediately to Dal and three major media outlets. It seems logical, that if someone solves the clues, they will retrieve the treasure immediately. Until they do, no announcement can have teeth. With snow coming on the situation, this changes of course; in which case, if I were the searcher, I’d stay very quiet until spring.f

          • morecowbell …

            Forrest has said he will follow the wishes of the finder. And an ethical, intelligent finder is not going to release location or clue information, in my opinion.

            All searchers will still have freedom to solve the poem and find the location, on their own.

            Ken (in Texas)

          • Ken –

            Some searchers would probably still want the challenge of finding the spot but many would just want to know the solution so they could see if they were close and to know more about his special spot (imo).

          • I don’t know anything, but it is my guess that Forrest would like to keep the “Hidey spot” a secret. This place is special to Forrest – for his own reasons. I would bet that he does not want a lot of people going there – for whatever reason, so, it is my guess that Forrest will ask the finder to not disclose either the solve, or the location – but that is only my guess. I know NADA – JDA

          • I agree it should be up to Forrest whether or not the solve is revealed when that time comes but this is much more than just about a place (imo). It’s about honoring his parents and his deep love for them for what they gave to him (imo).

          • JDA,

            fenn has commented he would take into consideration the searcher desire, AND has said he if he was convinced the chest was retrieved he would announce it to major media.
            Has said he would know if it was retrieved… without explanation. {I assume that is by other means than a searcher telling him}
            But I need to consider two other things;
            ~ he hid the chest knowing a lot of folks would eventually be looking… *it’s out of his hands.*
            ~ but the biggy is; Why lure, challenge all, egg them on, with gold and trinkets to find the place – “hidey spot” – if he didn’t want it found??
            fenn is/was an art dealer… high end items. He knows many of these items are for bragging rights of the buyer and displayed by the buyer, in most case. I hardly doubt the finder of the chest would be any different… in fenn’s mind.

            Personally, I think when fenn decided to create the “challenge” he knew he just gave up his right to call it; all his own, line of thinking.
            LOL… If I find the box of toys, I’m not letting anyone play with it. If you want to know where it was found, you’ll have to track me down.

          • Seeker;

            You say, “~ but the biggy is; Why lure, challenge all, egg them on, with gold and trinkets to find the place – “hidey spot” – if he didn’t want it found??”

            I agree, he DOES want it found, it is just my idea that he doesn’t want the location disclosed. I know, he has said that it is out of his hands, but I also believe that he could make it worthwhile to the finder to keep a tight lip. JMO – JDA

        • Ann,
          I think you misunderstood the spirit of the thread. Nobody in this thread advocates nondisclosure of the finding of the chest. IMO, the finder is obliged to notify Mr. Fenn immediately about his find.

          Morecowbell,
          How do you propose to prevent damage to the site by the 7% of the crazies and other people not willing to accepted that it’s over? Look no further then the lawsuits he’s facing right now.
          Do you think the solution disclosure would be fair to people that still want to work on the solution?

          My personal view is that a masterpiece like Mr Fenn’s poem shall remain a mystery for the ages to come.

          • JDA,

            I’m with you on this one. If the spot was so personal that his intent was to keep it his secret forever, he could have hidden the treasure someplace else, then went to his secret spot to rest his bones.

            Instead, he publishes clues and has publicly invited tens of thousands of searchers to go to that spot. So even with a lot of people trampling the spot, he “will always consider it to be [his] alone.”

            He has also said that he thinks the type of person who will find it will be one who will not be able to keep it quiet. (paraphrasing).

            I think he understood what would come of his sacred place and has made peace with that.

            JMO

            -Lori

          • CostaRico –

            I trust people to do the right thing so I don’t worry about it. I don’t see people doing that anyway.

            i presume Forrest will decide if he wants to disclose the solution or not, but I think a majority of searchers, if not all, will want to know.

          • Hi Lori;

            When Forrest wrote the poem, I am sure that he knew that several – or even many – would find the general area or location. I also think that Forrest also know that few, or even, only the finder would figure out the final EXACT hidey spot. To me, it is this final EXACT spot that I think Forrest would want to keep a secret.

            The idea of – I welcome you to my valley, but not to my home, unless I invite you in.>>> The poem tells you where the valley is, and several (maybe even quite a few) have come to the valley. A very few may have even gone up on the porch (The 200 footers)
            Some may have even knocked on the door (Been VERY close), but so far, Forrest has not yet opened that door and invited the finder in >>> No one has figured out the final details of the final clue and now knows EXACTLY where Indulgence rests.

            Maybe that is the big surprise for 2020 – Forrest may finally open the door, and ask the stranger in >>> A searcher may finally figure out the final details needed to get to the EXACT hidey spot. Who knows? Certainly not me – JDA

          • To All-

            The notion that FF would not want to disclose the location of the chest is absurd. He already has in writing the poem and sharing it quite literally with everyone. Even if/when the chest is found. neither FF nor the finder have any control over the place being discovered over and over again. Si whether the “find” is shared or not no one can prevent visitors from finding it. That would require redacting all information regarding the poem, an impossible task at this point. Let’s not let nostalgia cloud up the simple truth that it is most definitely out of FF’s hands at this point. Even if he were to recover the chest himself and disband the need for the search, he would not be able to prevent people from seeking out the spot anyway. And because he has already shared the location with the world once, I do not see why he would not want to do the same once the chest is found. It would be moral and ethic of him to do so, so as not to cause further burden upon those hoping to find the chest. At the very least, I would expect FF to decree that the chest has been found, whether the location is disclosed or not.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • JDA,

            I know that FF has said that he would announce that Indulgence has been found, and did not say he would release any details. I think the solve is the intellectual property of the Finder. Which means it is up to them to publish or not.

            As FF said, he is just a bystander now and it is out of his hands. Although I would certainly want to honor his wishes, especially if he has made some arrangements to be buried, (ashes scattered, etc) at that place when he goes.

            Part of me feels strongly that the solve should be published for the benefit of the other searchers. I think FF and I would need to have a long discussion to see if there is some compromise. Not monetary compensation, but maybe a release of how the clues were solved without a final reveal.

            JMO
            -Lori

    • Jason, we must be twins. That is exactly how I have felt with so many things recently. There are times that I read a comment and it brings to me this feeling of overwhelming, negative emotion because I thought something else was going on, and I would stop reading and leave the site altogether! But then, after an hour or two, or sometimes a day I would find myself dwelling on those words, and I would say to myself no that cant be the meaning of what he was saying, and so I would go back and reexamine everything, and sure enough I missed it! After doing this time and time again, I have decided that I am not going to ever make a judgement call on anyone ever again without first understanding well the facts first. It is similar to forrests poem. One must find the place, and follow the right order of the clues, which will safely lead you to the place that was always meant to be.

      • I will stay quiet, and not say anything you have my word. I remember a recent interview where forrest said that the finder may not completely understand all of the answers yet, but finding the chest is significant, or something to that effect. I just have to put my trust in forrest that he knows and has those answers. Thank you for your kind remarks on this site. It is far less stressful than the other sites.

    • Lori,

      That IS interesting! Most of the discussion has been about two trips from his car not in!!! And the latter sentence is not as clear because he didn’t say walk down into a canyon, then come up and go down again, although that is something I am sure is within the realm of possibility. I will check out the link to see if I can get better context. If that’s not what he meant then I would imagine the quote would rule out canyons altogether as in an 80-year-old man is not going to make any sort of trip into a canyon, etc. etc…… Good food for thought!

      -Ann

      • Hi Ann,

        Yes, he does not say “walk” into a canyon. But an 80-year old man could drive into a canyon, then up and down again. So I think he meant hiking not driving.

        So now I am trying to figure out if he meant that the hidey space is not in a canyon, (because he wouldn’t have been able to make the two trips), or did he mean that he did not go down, then up, then down again (for the second trip), thus he did not even pass through a canyon. At least not on foot. He might have taken the canyon down in his sedan.

        I’m still puzzling over this one.

        “Don’t let logic distract you from the poem”
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-on-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

        -Lori

        • There’s a difference between, “not going’ vs. The walk or drive options.
          He made two trips to the hide, from his car.
          He followed the clues “in the poem.”
          The poem contains nine clues.
          There’s no other way to his knowledge… But to follow the clues starting with the first clue.

          If he, at age almost 80, is not going… I’m not either.

        • Lori,

          Without thinking too much into all of it, I would say based on the second stanza, FF takes a road beginning at WWWH and down into the canyon, not far but too far to walk (thus he drives). That would seem to be the simplest explanation. (Doesn’t clarify HOB). Then stanza three would indicate where the walking begins as meek persons may not be likely to get out and proceed on foot (unless they were hunting this treasure). All IMO of course.

          -Ann

          • Lori,

            Does FF have any personal connections to Lilly of the valley? If so, in what context? Thank you,

            -Ann

        • Lori,

          Agreed. I did not mean that the chest wasn’t hidden in a canyon altogether, but rather what you said above. The trip into the canyon (if indeed there was one) was too far to walk but not to drive. That interpretation would also mean only canyons that are drivable will suffice. So if a potential solve has you parking atop the canyon and walking down, you could possibly rule that out if you interpret the line under discussion in the manner discussed. I still like my “image” location in light (no pun intended) of the remarks regarding sunlight and in lieu of things such as this discussion about driving/walking and the distances etc.. etc. Unfortunately, bolstering one’s confidence in a possible solve does not help much unless there are BOTG to substantiate or dispute the idea(s). So while there is much conjecturing going on here, I give props to those who actually go out and look. That’s the only true way to find the treasure. You have to get to it physically in order to find it! All IMO.

          -Ann

    • I think I once asked Mr. Fenn if he had been misquoted or something about the in the car or the to the car discrepancy I found. g

    • It really does say ‘two trips ‘IN’ my car. this is quite different than say ‘two trip ‘TO’ my car. Maybe he just slipped up?

      • Hi David,
        Interesting point but I think it is just that he misspoke.
        I did a search and found more than ten references to his “two trips” and this is the only one where he says “in his car”. All of the other instances are very clear that he was walking from his car to the hiding space, returning to his car from the space, etc.

        Nice catch, though.

        -Lori

      • David,
        This has been a big conversation getter for some time now.
        While it is printed “IN” for the article… there are many other comments {audio, emails posted from fenn and such} That say; “From” my car.
        Three things I consider with the comment;
        1. the consistency of all the other ATFs using “from”
        2. The interviewer simple wrote IN vs. FROM when hears the word ‘car’ {this session was not recorded as far as I can tell, seemingly only notes by the interviewer}
        3. LOL… he’s allow to make a mistake now and then.

        There have been a few time where fenn even used the word “buried” vs hidden… although he corrects most everyone else for using that word, like he did in this interview.

        Just sayin…

      • Which question? If you mean the one I linked, yes he answered it. I only quoted part of his answer about canyons. The full quote is:

        Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
        I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

        -Lori

  15. Hello ladies,
    Yup, that quote has made it’s rounds here. You have to take it with a grain of salt. There are a lot of ways searchers have interpreted that comment. From driving passed the second clue, to start walking from the first clue, to the trips on different days, to whatever fits that person’s solve. It’s a deep rabbit hole if you ask me, but it’s worth noting in your solve. For me, it lays the foundation of thinking that you start your walk at the first clue.
    When f gives us these quotes that may have different interpretations, and doesn’t supply the answer, or clarify, then it’s up to you and your solve. All the ATF’S could, in the end, just help you police your own solve. Your checks and balance system as Seeker would put it. Best thing to do, is to put all the ATF’s into categories and a data base. From what I see, at times, 5-6 ATF’s could help give the answers to some of the things you may have questions on, depending on what category you are asking a question about.
    How far he walked, when he walked, bells, jars, chest contents, key, etc…
    Most everything can be found in the ATF’s, just need to categorize for easy interpretation.

    • Thank PI,

      I did a search on here but couldn’t find a discussion on it.
      I have my mind-mapping software to help categorize my clues.
      I have my solve, now I am just going through ATFs to see if anything will dispute what I have.

      This is the first one that might be a problem depending on how I interpret it. Everything else fits perfectly, so I guess we will see.

      -Lori

      • I’ll tell you this Lori, notice what he says in the comment. Now remember that he was 79 when he went out and hid the chest. His comment of an “80” year old wouldn’t go down, up, then down again doesn’t mean anything pertaining to hiding the chest for him. He may not go down, up, and down again when he would be 80, but he didn’t say anything of what he would do when he is 79.
        He may very well do it when he is 79 years old.
        It’s like another comment he made on Mysterious Writings website:

        Featured Questions with Forrest Fenn: The Bronze Jars
        July 13, 2016
        Mr. Fenn, Instinct tells me that you have something more in the jars you’ve hidden than just your autobiography, like maybe a gold coin or two. Do you think it is harder to find your jars or the chest? ~RPeternell
        R,
        Each bronze jar I buried contains only my autobiography that is encased in a moisture proof glass container. Today I would be unable locate any of my buried jars or bells.
        My hope is that some romantic historian will happen upon one of them in the year 12,016, and think that Forrest Fenn was not just a passer-by to life. f
        The comment section that followed:

        The real question that should be posed is:
        Did you Mr. Forrest hide anything other than the treasure chest of significant monetary value. A second chest or cache?
        Open ended questions never resolve questions.
        Perhaps Forrest if your reading this you’ll answer in the comments section.
        Thx Don
        from Flagstaff AZ
        Flagstaff AZ
        3 years ago
        1. No Don, nothing of significant value, but it has long been my habit to drop a coin way out in the hinterland someplace, and scrape dirt on top of it. That practice costs me very little, but the result could be significant to someone in the distant future. I just love doing things like that. f
        Forrest Fenn

        Okay, so what did he bury out there with the chest that does not have a “significant value”?
        For him to say,”nothing of significant value”, tells me he obviously did bury something else out there.
        I wouldn’t worry too much if that ATF doesn’t match up, mainly because, he was 79.

        • This may not mean anything to most, but that ATF of the year 12016, with another ATF with it, and a little imagination, you could figure out another ATF. You can solve:
          A few are in tight focus with a word that is key.
          And believe it or not, The bighorn medicine wheel helps out. Lol, just gabbin’. But true….

        • To Poisionivey, The bells and jars are not of significant value. Perhaps that’s what he meant. To me the answer is clear from the question and Forrest’s response. You are not looking for a Jar or Bell becasue Forrest said that he could not locate any of them today even if he wanted to. But in my opinion the bronze would make metal detecting easy.

          I might try some metal detecting myself. I just hope I don’t step on any sharp flies. If I find one, after pulling the hook out of my skin, I can take it with me as a memento of the chase. Those things have a feather wrapped around them to lure the fish. You’d think the fish would get wise to that trick and realize upon seeing a feather that it points nowhere but to grave danger. Good luck on the chase.

          • Hey Jo-Jo,
            I’m with you on the bells. Actually, I think that is what his “secret” from the poem is. I think the first 8 clues get you to a spot where a bell is buried. Hence the ATF of the minimum amount of clues needed to find the chest = one, the last one.
            I also have a lot of other stuff that points to that conclusion.
            The ATF about f not being able to find the bells or jars is another one you have to take with a grain of salt. The fact that he can’t walk the distances needed to get to the spot covers that. So of course he wouldn’t be able to find any of the jars or bells.
            I haven’t found any “flies” on my path as of yet. The lake that I’m close to has frogs in it, so maybe a “fly” would be a good find, if I was looking to get some frog legs….Good luck to you also…

      • “This is the first one that might be a problem depending on how I interpret it. Everything else fits perfectly, so I guess we will see.”

        Lori – You just described everyone of my solves! LOL! Good luck and have fun! 😉

    • I was going to view the interview video again, but it appears cowlazars has chosen to remove the video. I’m a bit disappointed because I thought it was really good. I hope you’ll choose to bring it back up for others to see, please.

      • Me too 🙂 Also wanted to view it again.
        This 27 min video is very interesting for all searchers. I see that it was removed from all internet sources. I have some idea why it was removed and if this video never come back (in full version) it will prove that maybe I’m right.
        BTW, it’s very inappropriate to remove any interviews with Forrest from searcher community. I hope that cowlazars did it accidentally but not for some reason (like to hide some important information from all searchers).

        • I believe Cynthia said that she owns the video that was shown, and per her contract, she could not air it until the Australian tv station aired their video.

          I don’t know Cynthia, but she seems like an honest person to me and would not attempt to hide it from the community. Keep in mind that she has had the video since May 2019, so she had plenty of time to take advantage of any “secret” information the video might contain.

          I think that since FF did not announce the treasure as found, Cynthia did not go after it, and did willingly share the video with the community.

          Just My Thoughts
          -Lori

          • Hello Lori. The video in question which was posted, but since removed, was an interview with Mr. Fenn and Mr. Preston. KPro did the majority of the questionings to the gentlemen. Cowlazar and Cynthia asked a question towards to the end of said video. I’m currently listening to a video posted a couple days ago (afterparty), and I believe I heard the interview was held at Mr. Preston’s home, whereas, the Australian interview was done at Mr. Fenn’s. I hope the video will be put forth again. I thought it was really interesting.

          • There are two recently released video interviews with Forrest. One was shot in May of 2019 by Cynthia at Forrest’s house. Cynthia had to wait to release it until she had permission from the Australian company that hired her to shoot it. She recently obtained permission and posted that video here:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP6fcZ-yn9M

            There is also a second use of that video in a discussion between Cowlazers, KPro and Cynthia that was streamed live. It is over two and a half hours in length and includes the video that Cynthia shot and linked above. That version is here:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmnFNmqLmzE&t=1145s

            There is another video interview with Forrest that was shot by KPro, Cynthia and Cowlazers at Doug Preston’s office in Santa Fe on November 6th, 2019. It features Forrest and Doug. Cowlazers writes that “These are all the clips that have been released so far” on the video page. Does that mean more from that video will be posted in the future? Who knows?
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoWbwFZlTyA&feature=youtu.be&t=1569

          • Hi Dal: as I understand it, Kris & Mike are putting together a documentary about Forrest (presumably focused on the Chase), and will be using some of that footage shot at Forrest’s and at Doug’s last year. That being the case, I can understand not wanting to release everything they filmed and undercutting interest in their future documentary.

          • Thank you, Dal.

            I wish to thank Cowlazars for reintroducing the video to the public. I’ve viewed it again this morning and truly enjoyed it. I have no doubt I will view again. Everyone involved did a great job.

        • Thank you, Dal, for posting the links to the videos. And thanks to Kpro and Cowlazars for making the Forrest Fenn – Doug Preston video available again

  16. I think the hidden special spot is on the side of a mountain under a tree. Possibly a 1000 year old olive tree. A spring drizzling into a small creek close by and the sound of birds singing.

      • Just thinking about the big ball of string that wouldn’t fit through the door but somehow disappeared and is one of the greatest unsolved family crimes. F mother was just nodding her head and looking out the window. Standard bedroom doors are 36 inches or less. Standard windows are 36 inches or more. So 36 inches more or less seems to be relevant.

  17. Know the exact spot on a small creek in New Mexico. A log goes across the creek forming a waterfall with a void behind it. “If you are Brave and in the Wood” “Efforts worth the Cold”. When light shines through it forms a beautiful rainbow.

    However, after a decade, can’t imagine the flood debris that would have accumulated within that void. Don’t believe that there would be any “Tarry Scant” there.

  18. I don’t think the hidey spot is some location in the middle of nowhere. I think the location has a name and gets regular visitors. As I recall, the first 500 foot comment from Mr. Fenn, was that (several parties) had been within 500 feet of the chest. Another comment was that (people arrive there) but don’t realize the significance of the place.

    • Right you are, James:

      Here is another one to add to your list, I think(?) it is the latest comment:

      The Lure- fenn comments- https://agypsyskiss.wordpress.com/2017/05/

      ** From “The Lure” post-screening Q&A with Forrest Fenn, on 5/18/2017:

      Question 2 – “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?” Forrest answers: “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by. And of course I would never tell ’em that, ‘cuz they’d, uh, they’d try to remember where they had been.”

      ” lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure”

      (zap, I’m aware that this may not be 100% accurately transcribed. But for my purposes, the gist of it is there. I post a link so others may form their own opinion)…..loco

    • Well James, that’s one way of looking at it.
      Only in loco post “people” is used as searchers. “People have told him him exactly where they were…
      In other comments Fenn used “people” “some” “several”…being searchers as well.
      Even the word “others” … Who got to the location by aberrations.
      They are all meant as searchers, and most if not all of those words above were to answer questions about the chase.

      I personally highly doubt Fenn is talking about visitors or tourist being that close to where he planned his physical body to be.
      Even if the place has an off season… illness doesn’t wait for months for visitors to leave.

    • James wrote: “I don’t think the hidey spot is some location in the middle of nowhere. I think the location has a name and gets regular visitors.”
      ——————————————————

      I would agree with you if you change “hidey spot” to general area. The general area “gets regular visitors”, not the hidey spot.

      Forrest has already said (and recently) that the chest is hidden where people would not normally go; his definition of “isolated”.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • Ken/Texas… that is a good way to interpret that. This brings a couple of things into tighter focus. One being… perhaps that helps to understand how the first two clues gets a searcher to the correct *general area*… and then the remaining clues (where things go awry) are the directions to the more *isolated* place where the treasure is secreted.

        • yo ..trouble-maker!!

          no Fennboree this year – it’s been cancelled apparently
          (due to bad weather re: lightening and thunder and stuff)

          …jus’ sayin’
          😛

          • Well there goes the neighborhood… Again!
            I thought you were exiled to Matamata or someplace..

          • Please pardon my skepticism about the cancellation.
            If Fennboree typically happens around July 4, nobody
            would be able to accurately predict the weather there
            many months in advance. However, I suppose that the
            person(s) planning to make Fennboree happen could have
            been disabled due to bad weather, so decided not to take
            on the task. Geez. As always, IMO.

    • James, “gets regular visitors”? well it is a conundrum. there are a couple more quotes we might want to be aware of, about leaving his bones be…. and throwing himself on top of the chest…

      so ff planned on dying in a spot regularly visited, a spot special to him, (apparently also special to tourists and such) while having his bones examined by regular visitors? (hidey spot and all)

      how long does one think his bones would have lasted there? let alone a treasure chest underneath those bones? (as if there would be time to have bones before being hauled away to a place that is exactly the opposite of where ff wanted his bones to be at)

      I can’t even imagine sitting under a tree waiting to die, while 500′ away, tourists were laughing and bobbing around at a regularly visited spot…

      that just seems wrong on so many levels imo, but apparently according to ff several/many people have at least walked by the spot… I just can’t picture it being “popular”, why would one want their last spot to be that ‘popular’ if trying to hide one’s bones/body?

      a question that would ultimately solve the riddle, if answered.

  19. Dal, above where you talked about Cynthia’s video there is a typo… in Douglas Preston’s office you have it dated November 6th, 2020… I don’t know about yours, but my crystal ball won’t let me look that far ahead…. just saying… thought you’d like to know… until next time… see ya my friend

  20. Good Morning Searchers, Life is Good, and somehow, hiding in plane site this gem that Lori above printed seems…well “new” like the smell of spring flowers, “It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.f” Does anyone else think it was odd that ff used the into for perhaps the word down in this interview? Into is a preposition that means usually a word governing, and usually preceding, a noun or pronoun and expressing a relation to another word or element in the clause, as in “the man on the platform,” “she arrived after dinner,” “what did you do it for ?”. Clearly later in the sentence he says go down then come up?

    IMO it seems that he may have entered this canyon down from above? Normally canyons go up a higher terrain and are accessed from below or one side or another? Unless you see a fly in the ointment here, where he says “two trips IN my car?” What is up with that? Forrest had a very suspecious answer to this question on mysterious writings…when asked this, “Forrest, You said you made two trips from your car to hide the treasure. Besides walking, did you use any other methods of transportation to get back and forth between the car and the hide? Thanks, Edgar

    Edgar, your wording of the question prompts me to pause and wonder if I can answer it candidly, yet correctly. Were all the evidence truly known, and I answered in the positive, you might say I was prevaricating, by some definitions of the word. And if I answered in the negative, you may claim that I was quibbling. So I will stay quiet on that subject. Thanks for the question anyway. f”

    Food for Winter Thoughts and coffee…

    TT

    • Hi TT: “Does anyone else think it was odd that ff used the into for perhaps the word down in this interview?”

      I did not, because the trigger for that conversation was Randy’s Rio Grande solution: Forrest was basically saying that Randy’s route (and any others with similar large changes in altitude) paid scant attention to Forrest’s age and the burden of carrying over 20 lbs — twice.

      • I looked for Randy B. with Cynthia and James, several others with drones and Zap, I will say you were the one who noticed that US Grant was in the chest front and center, but lets face it Forrest has dropped so many of these hints and why this sudden urgency to post so many SC Books?

        Some one may be very close, and ever since Chaos at 209 I for one smell a new fragrance in the urgency meter…IMO

        TT

      • The place where Randy went into the Rio Grande was at waters edge, there is not a lot of elevation change Zap, the river winds through the gorge area but you can traverse the river without a lot of elevation change, in fact the raft was only about 15′ lower in elevation so when you said “Forrest was basically saying that Randy’s route (and any others with similar large changes in altitude)” at that point in the Rio Grande River it does not have any large change in elevation. I know this Gorge from having kayaked it and rafted it for almost 52 years now, the terrain is rough and can have places where it is not easily followed, but I think elevation is not the problem, granted I am trying to apply his use of the preposition into and how it should mean DOWN…

        One of my best friends ran Wolf White Water Rafting and he taught me how to navigate the rapids and survive, some years at 10.000 cfs.

        TT

      • Freudian Slips occur in many cases where someone recognizes the idea as an unintended hint or clue, no one is saying it was a slip up on ff’s part, but something has changed and if you have been wise you can read the stars, they are aligning up at the end of the DECADE for this Chase, many will continue to see everything just as it was a year ago, the postings are like reading the same old tea leaves, tea leaves have been used by many people as a means of divination. Will this change anyones mind, I doubt it, but I for one would like the TC found and then we shall see who is the Dudie and whose not.

        TT

          • TT-
            What makes you certain that was a slip-up? That could be Forrest stirring the pot. Maybe there was nothing he said that he regrets. Maybe he just said that to keep folks interested. If he really regretted something he said why call attention to it?…To stir the pot?

            Besides, if there was a slip-up that Forrest regretted saying, the editors have no more clue than we do about what it might be…they could have left the regretted sentence on the cutting room floor…quite by accident…We have no idea how much of the interview they conducted actually ended up in the final edited story, but certainly not all of it…

          • I can’t find the reference right now, but I thought this was clarified by FF and interviewer at a later time. The clarification was that he wished he had not said “pinyon nuts” because he meant to say “pine needles”, you can’t smell pinyon nuts.

            -Lori

          • Hi David,

            Yes, I am still down that rabbit hole because it is a big clue that could possibly eliminate half of the search area.

            I was just reading all of the discussion about this on Jenny’s site and someone mentioned something that no one has pointed out: In his description, FF does not mention any water. He does not see water, but he knows the chest is wet. ???

            Also, if we scrutinize FF’s original comment and subsequent retraction, he does appear to be back-pedaling.

            As I was reading the retraction I kept thinking about how FF responds to comments that the chest is buried. He makes it clear that he did not say it was, and he did not say it was not buried. He states that he just “does not want to give that as a clue”. There is much discussion about WHY he doesn’t want to give it as a clue.

            My point is not that the comment isn’t a clue, but that FF does not want to give it as a clue. Keep this concept in mind and re-read the post.

            Anyway, just my opinion.

            -Lori

  21. “What arrangements have you made in case of your disability or death?
    I don’t want any arrangements. Somebody’s going to have to find it. If I was to tell anyone where it is, it would be my grandson. And I’m not going to tell him.f”

    What is ff’s grandson’s name? Shiloh? Now for your Jeopardy bonus Q … Which US president served under US Grant in the civil war battle of Shilo?

    SC Book 241 look very closely at the coin in the center, and OH Yes at Las Cruces..

    TT

      • David what Does a “BOX ELDER TREE” Maple vatiety and a Maple Leaf that ff had stolen from the White House Lawn, The John Ehrlichman Saga scrapbooks 211, 213 and 214? John Ehrlichman and Forrest fished the San Juan River and the Pecos, The marker, memorial, place of requiem for this fallen President …is in the San Juan Mountain Range, in fact it is in the Carson National Forrest, see the 43″ inch Kachina doll in SC Book about Yazzie Yarnel SC 231 who is that Kachina…Kit Carson, unloved by the Navajo Nation.

        TT

        • The 58,688 times he backed out of the garage is only 368 more than the 58,320 names etched on the shiny black memorial. 368 is only 20 more than the number of missions he flew. If i were to find one more of those dolls i think i’d pin the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry on it. Who knew?

  22. Afternoon all,

    Something in the back of my mind tells me there is more to this chase that meets the eye.
    With FF’s comments concerning S corporation law. A fuzzy picture is developing, Ummm caretaker, guardian. These words are bouncing around in my mind for some reason.

    HDD

  23. Forrest Fenn-Douglas Preston Clips
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoWbwFZlTyA&feature=youtu.be&t=1569
    Paraphrase: 11:45 mark—
    When Cynthia asked Forrest, when someone does find the treasure- the chest and its contents are theirs (the finder’s), correct? They will own that treasure?…. Forrest responds, I’ve said in my poem, l give you title to the gold, but ah, there’s a lot of…Subchapter S is in that rule too. But, I don’t want to go there.

    This is the first time he’s mentioned Subchapter S Corp having anything to do with the treasure. It sounds like there is an obligation (catch) to the finder to an S Corporation. Something like, the finder gets “only the gold” and everything else go to the S Corp. By the way, an S Corp has more than one entity or persons in it. Who else is part of that S Corp?

    Something here is different. Maybe it’s the clue that Douglas says that Forrest gave in the interview while he sat in that chair. Something new, Douglas says. And, is that how they will know after Forrest has gone to the great banquet table of history. 17:00 mark–When asked,…..After some delay…..Forrest says, there’s a way to know but I’m not going to tell you.

    Does anyone one think that Douglas and Shiloh are part of this S Corp., and what hold does it have on the chase? —23:44 mark–And how does Douglas know that Forrest gave out very significant clue? Forrest, seemed to agree and said, thank you.

    Something is different, what do you think?

    • ManOwar … why are you concerned with that? What does subchapter S Corp have to do with finding the chest? What does it have to do with >>> the hidey space?

      The only person who will need clarification on Subchapter S Corp, if it’s relevant, will be the finder.

      Are you jumping ahead in time?

      In this thread, let’s talk about the hidey space.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • Yeah, I was chastised for discussing Subchapter S here and was told the appropriate thread is under Legal Ponderings. I’m surprised this post survived but mine didn’t. Oh well. Live and learn.

    • ManOwar: “By the way, an S Corp has more than one entity or persons in it.”

      an S corp can be anything, including one owner, it can not have more than 100 shareholders. it can have far less than 100, including just one shareholder.

      ff didn’t say “corp” by the way, it does sound like he says “subchapter s”… with nothing after words, which could be any number of things.

      imo what he is try to say is there are a lot of exceptions to the rule, any rule really, and for ownership which is even worse, when greed or a lawyer is involved (kind of the same thing really)… well then it is sort of like the possession is nine-tenths of the law saying… great but…. as for the other 1/10, when someone sues a corporation, because they were driving with the coffee cup between their legs that they just got through a fast food window , then spills on themselves and gets burnt, sues the corp, and wins, well heck with fair and honest and rules, it means we are living in a anything goes Mad Max movie as real life when it comes to the ‘law’…

      so just throw your hands up and surrender, or get a bigger howitzer….

      easy to own… harder to keep…

      • Sub chapter S – and only those words?
        Perhaps it is not a reference to a legal entity.
        mmmmm – makes me wonder.
        Dang – that’s prob not a good thing.

      • You drive to the first clue.

        I think it has been assumed you can solve the clues 1.2.3.etc and then go to where F parked the car and made 2 trips.

        “You start the chase by ‘getting in your car’ and going to the first clue.” (18:07)

  24. Fenn said @ Moby Dickens he would “fling” (then later) “throw” himself on top of that treasure chest.. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RzrIu3hMec
    Or as ManOwar posted above from TTotC: “..have his bones rest forever, in silent repose, beside the treasure chest.” The TTotC quote is not as colorful or poetic, but probably more accurate.
    Shouldn’t the Hidey Space not only accomodate the chest, but also provide a comfortable place nearby for Mr Fenn to lie down and “let his body go back to the earth”?

    • Randawg,

      Have you read Douglas Preston’s Foreword to Once Upon A While?

      “So he had worked out a plan: when the cancer came back, he would travel to a secret place he had identified and bring with him the treasure chest. In that place he would conceal himself and the treasure, and then and there end his life. He would leave behind a poem containing clues to where he was interred with the chest. Whoever was clever enough to figure out the poem and find his grave was welcome to rob it and take the treasure for themselves.”

      http://mysteriouswritings.com/douglas-prestons-foreword-to-forrest-fenns-new-book-once-upon-a-while/

      Lots of interesting tidbits about FF’s early conception of the Chase.

      -Lori

      • rocks like Mike shared – crawl into the void — and seal yourself in. takes care of the animals scattering the bones — definitely not in the sun — water could seep in but its bronze so it wont care if its wet — definitely correct is saying it’s not a cave.

      • So where was he going to leave this poem in Plan A? In his car at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science?
        If so how would his family know to go to his car?
        I guess after a while someone would’ve figured out the abandoned car.
        So now if the poem was left in the car — how does you puzzle work?
        Where is the most logical place F would go after leaving the note in the car? (Forrest you can feel free to speculate)

        • David,

          Whether FF had left the poem in his car or somewhere else, the location of the abandoned car would be the key. We would at least know the general area in which to look! The chest would have to be within reasonable walking distance from the car. And I’ve previously given it a max of five miles. That is on the high end as it would mean a total of 20 miles of walking WITH a heavy load all in one day. The Lincoln Pilgrimage is traversed by hundreds in a single day every year and that is over 20 miles. I would guess it would be far less than that for an 80 year old with the weight. So where do you suppose the car would be found in such an instance? All IMO.

          -Ann

  25. Hi all,
    FF has said many times over the past few years that it is not in a cave and not in a river or under water.
    These have been identified as too hazardous and all should refrain from suggesting these places as areas to search. We have lost too many lives over the search, no need to lose even one more.
    Keep it simple and remember FF said he wants KIDS to get off electronics and to get out and search with their families…. clearly a no danger zone is the best place to look…as it was an 80 yr. old man who hid his treasure chest with best intentions.
    KIR and KIS people!
    Happy hunting.
    Kit

  26. Dal & Cynthia,
    Thanks for the new interview content.

    Two comments from ff In Cynthia’s interview with Forrest are particularly of interest to me.

    -Mysteries in the poem
    -6-8 events which needed to happen

    Anyone else now looking for mysteries in the poem?

  27. Above, Ann O’Nymous wrote: “The chest would have to be within reasonable walking distance from the car … So where do you suppose the car would be found in such an instance? …”
    ————————————————————————

    Interesting comment, in that I can remember a year or two back when I posted about where Forrest parked his car, posters here did not want to talk about that. One poster even said it didn’t make any difference where he parked his car.

    I agree with Ann that the hidey space needs to be within a “reasonable walking distance” from his car. So, if searcher drives to the first clue, why do we need so many clues (8 of them) to get us the short walking distance from WWWH to the hidey space?

    Addressed to searchers who think the clues all fall within a small geographic area, and that the clues can only be found BOTG, I don’t think y’all have thought this through very well.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Good morning Ken (in Texas) – Above you posed a question about “why do we need so many clues (8 of them)…”. I’ll bite, even though I do not meet the qualifications you set forth in the paragraph following your question because I do not believe that the clues can only be found BOTG, but I do believe that they all fall within a small(er) geographic area. For me and my current solve methodology, some of the clues are redundant and therefore serve to shrink the search area. I’ve said it on more than one occasion, searching for 9 distinct and separate clues leads you on a very different journey than following 9 clues that have built in redundancy to instill confidence in one’s journey.

    • Ken, IMO it depends. If the majority of the clues need to be found BOTG then I believe that they would be very close together. By the way this is thought process that I lean toward. Blindly walking around in the wilderness looking for clues can be challenging. If, however several clues can be found on a map prior to BOTG then it would make sense that those could be further apart.

    • Hi Ken (in TX)

      I agree also with Ann that the hidey spot is within a reasonable walking distance from where Forrest parked. BUT, it seems (unless I’m misunderstanding) that you see f parked at the first clue.
      “So, if searcher drives to the first clue, why do we need so many clues (8 of them) to get us the short walking distance from WWWH to the hidey space?”

      To me, the driving part gets us to HOB (below it) and that’s where things “tighten up.”

      As far as being able to only follow the last few clues with BOTG, I’m not sure. I “think” we need to be more “certain” then aimlessly wondering around hoping we find something once we are BOTG, and I keep trying to find solves that are more “precise.” That said, I do have one solve that takes me to a very specific “spot”, but a couple others that only take me to a specific “area” where more eyes-in-the-field searching will be needed. But that method just doesn’t feel right based on the words from f in TFTW – ” I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” Seems to me that’s a pretty straight forward “warning.”

      But again, all just MO and speculation that needs to be tested come Spring/Summer.

    • Im not so sure it has to be in walking distance to his hidey space. What if F took another means of transportation after leaving his car to find?

      • Always a possibility and a topic that has been brought up many times. I just go back to his many times saying (paraphrasing) that he laughed and asked himself did he just do that as he walked back to his car. Now could he have walked in a ways and then rode a bike, set in a raft, or what ever else you can conjure up, perhaps, but I highly doubt it. But that’s just MO.

        • My guess is plan A he didnt want his car near the hidey place as it would be too easy to find him — Plan B he just drove his car there and drove away. Plan A though you have to consider the hidey place was the same as Plan B so knowing how car rental and planes work they’d track him easily but what if he took another form of transportation that didnt have such good passenger records and didnt require an ID to get on.

        • srch12345 wrote: “to me, suggests other modes of transit”.
          ——————————–

          How so?

          Do you think that “other modes” would simplify the task for searchers or render it more complicated?

          What “other modes” do you think we need … bicycle, boat, horseback, skis, scuba diving gear, parachute … ?

          Ken (in Texas)

          • Train, ski lift, gondola… Worth noting, many ski resorts are built on forest service land.

        • srch12345, IMO the “As I have gone alone in there” probably means someone else, perhaps an 80 year old or two had been to where the blaze lives, and those were probably, Will M Fenn and/or Eric Sloane, and of course memories of that type do not need to be seen, they are always FELT.

          Also the phrase “Not far but too far to walk” could mean alternate modes of transit, but it is just a likely that term spells a LEDGE or lege in some schools of thought, because if one is standing or visualizing at of from WWWH you could be above the Canyon, ie the word Down, these are two words with simple almost unanimously singular meanings, and with not guidance if look like a dyke and quacks like a Dyke it might be a beaver or the home of some little animal of Canada That or Who? is a question that ff did not want to answer in London interview, he changed the subject to wood, now wood you think he was hiding or has parapraxis slipped in?

          TT

          • goose down, duck down, anser down…might have to duck down so some spring armature doesn’t hit you in the head. haha

          • “As I have gone alone in there, and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where, and hint of riches new and old.”

            That’s the full sentence (typing from memory, I think I have all the commas right). So, he’s gone “alone in there” and IMO he’s gone “with my treasures bold”. He also suggests, I think, that whatever “there” is, it may help to “keep my secret where”. And, finally, perhaps “there” also hints of riches new and old.

            The next sentence, in full, is:

            “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.”

            So we have an “it”, a “there” and a “secret where”. If “it” and “there” are the same (I tend to think they might be), then the first sentence’s purpose is to clarify what “it” is, and by so doing help pinpoint the right “where warm waters halt”, as “it” begins there.

            As per the hidey spot (to keep this roughly on topic), I think the lines after the “clues” end are meant to guide one to the correct “blaze”, which IMO is at/near the location of the “secret where”. Hence, the secret where can be described as “in the wood”. It takes effort to get to it (perhaps the effort is the time put into the chase, but I wonder if its application is meant to be more local), somehow getting there involves “cold” that you encounter because of your effort. One is also brave to go to this location.

            Anyways, that’s my take on the beginning/ending, or at least my current thoughts on it.

          • New Mexico had at one time member of the Aldo Leopold was an American author, philosopher, scientist, ecologist, forester, conservationist, and environmentalist. He was a professor at the University of Wisconsin and is best known for his book A Sand County Almanac, which has sold more than two million copies. Wikipedia https://gearjunkie.com/aldo-leopold-quotes

            He was charged with the management of the Carson National Forest, see SC Book 231, the 43″ figure, a Kachina is without a doubt in my Native American opinion is the effigy of “Kit Carson who reservated the Navajo’s of which Yazzie Darnell’s family were part, Forrest boldly ask us to, TRACK DOWN “Yazzi Yarnell dolls and requests help in tracking down others”f Something in my nose tells me this meaning is like the horns on the 43” statue/doll of Carson…yes some years before Aldo Leopold, but find his memory there at the 3 Rocks for Aldo built his wife a beautiful cabin in Tres Piedras, NM, so they could see their beloved Sangre De Cristo’s from this porch.

            Great pains have been taken to restore it and keep the memory of Aldo, AKA a John Muir of the Rockies alive and in our hearts. TT

    • Ken (in Texas) ~ *Addressed to searchers who think the clues all fall within a small geographic area, and that the clues can only be found BOTG, I don’t think y’all have thought this through very well.*

      I agree to the last part… but I’ll change *I don’t think y’all have thought this through very well.* -to maybe- not thinking the right thoughts.
      To locate a place something is hidden [out of site or camo] doesn’t need many acres or miles for other clues to tell someone how to find it.
      It falls down to, how the clues are used. {using them would require being on site}.
      The question still remains: are some clues strictly directions / instructions rather than all being represented by a physical land feature-?- or anything tangible?

      As to the *8* left over clues… size seems to require the decipher clues to be large themselves and need to be traveled to… I ask why?

      They can be large, such as a mountain… but a mountain is known by ‘its peak.’ A canyon can be miles long but as two ends. A stone feature can be of great height and width… but could the poem play out that we need those points to triangulate a location?.. maybe in a place were.. at ground level all points are seen from? In which case there’s a need to be present as well.
      Even when looking on a map… places can be picked by the use of directions [example “down” being south on a map] however on a map the end, or south end. of said canyon can be 20 miles away and not seen with botg… so south is only a direction with no known distance… until we are seeing it on site, at a point on the canyon, to use a triangulation point of reference for “preciseness.”

      It’s not about attempting to cram 8 of any mapping point into a small location… its about what clues represent; physical features, and which represent directions / instructions. Because even if you drive, hop skip and jump… some clues must be directions.

      So, I’m full circle to; are some clues strictly directions / instructions rather than all being represented by a physical land feature-?- or anything tangible?

      I disagree ken {TX} Thinking with only one process in mind, such as, there must be 9 individual place to travel to, leaves no room for clues representing directions and instructions.
      LOL I mean, many like to think “Not far, but too fr two walk” requires a vehicle /alternative mode of movement. Is that not an instruction???
      Is Down not an instruction or direction?
      Is Put In and or Below anything no instructions or directions?

      Begin where warm waters [do something]
      then do something a canyon. At hoB. then a place [enter descriptor guess here] to something near,…???
      Without clues being of instructions /directions the places are useless… no matter how many places are in the poem. How can we be precise in finding the treasure chest hidey spot with out clues telling us what to do.

      IMO. a small scale solve utilizes both the physical features and instructions to show where the blaze / hidey spot is… requiring all clue seen on site… at ground level… and helps the environment by not sending more gas fumes in the air, imo.

  28. I think (imo) that fenns way to smart to leave his car any where near the final hidey space. To me its to obvious. who’s to say that once he abandoned his car, he wouldn’t get the bus, train, cab or even a plane so that his car would be miles away from his final resting place. So again Imo where his car would have been abandoned, would be irrelevant.

  29. Forrest responds-Forrest gets mail,

    “I am a very simple person and you want me to have copious meetings with lawyers, preachers, undertakers and your family. What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it? You don’t know how many man hours I have spent on that subject. Thanks for the input but I think you should mobilize your club and hit the trail searching for the wondrous treasure. Besides, I’ll probably get hit by a train. When you find the treasure please come sell me the great turquoise and silver bracelet that is in the chest. I wish now that I had kept it. f”

    “Besides, I’ll probably get hit by a train.f” How can no one else see in this…except a Mr Terrific…https://dalneitzel.com/2019/12/08/scrapbook-two_hundred-forty-five/… “I just measured the palette with my spread right hand, which is exactly 8 ¼ inches, little finger nail, to thumb nail. So the palette is 33 ½ inches wide. But just for fun I measured it with my ruler also. Yup, 33 ½ inches wide. I always like to be exact. f” Look at the 3rd pic, and what is 33 and half inch? YOU GOTTA BE SMELLING SOMETHIN…right?

    TT

    • Is everyones nose broken or just outa joint. Read the hints and see the place from a new perspective. Me and Bobby see, so many hints and so little time to prove my case…TT

      • Brian, 4 X 8.25 is actually Hwy 285 IMP read SC Book 223, clear as a bell when you want to be exact, 33 and a half inch is how long the wood on the easel was, look at 3 pic down, there is a message there, how far behind Forrest did Bippy trout 3′ , how wide is the correct track…36 inches.

        TT

    • TT, I have heard you preach many a times, and I understand your direction. But how does 33-1/2 come into play in your opinion? The narrow gauge railway of which you often speak is 36″. Just curious. Thx.

  30. Over the years my solves have have almost always postulated that the chest is in, or very near a creek bed. However, with every BOG effort I am struck by evidence of the near impossibility for a chest that size and weight to NOT be washed away in a typical mountain stream spring runoff or flash flood. After seeing car sized boulders violently strewn around like so many kids marbles at choke points, I just have to shift my target hidey places to an “outside of the canyon” or creek bed location. So… in my mind pure physics dictates a solve location outside of a mountain creek canyon, and I gotta think FF would long ago considered the same and acted accordingly.

      • David,

        I think that is something we often forget. We are focused on where the chest might be, but forget to consider that he wanted to die there.

        Any time we read a quote about where the chest is, we need to replace the word “chest” with “my corpse”. As morbid as that might be, it is important. As you said, he would want his bones to wash away. He wouldn’t want somebody tripping over his corpse. And there is another consideration…

        While stationed in Germany, I often took trips to Austria and France. I took a tour through some old catacombs under an ancient church. The underground tunnel opened out into a cemetery where there was a soldier’s grave similar to a “Tomb of the Unknown Soldier”. As I approached it, I caught a strong whiff of a rotting corpse. If you have never smelled a rotting human corpse, I can assure you that it is unlike any other smell and not something you might want to repeat.

        Even if FF’s corpse was well hidden from view, the odor could easily attract attention a few hundred feet away. If not people, wildlife would most certainly investigate.

        I don’t know if or how FF might have accounted for this, but it is something to consider. He is not going to be found rotting in the Old Faithful parking lot, so I doubt we would find the chest there. Once again, the term “isolated” becomes a factor.

        Just my thoughts.

        -Lori

        • I haven’t met many folks named Lori, but remember from Superman comic books that some female entities of interest to Superman (possibly also to Superboy) were Lois Lane, Lana Lang, and Lori Lemaris. See a connection? I see it as a small hint.

          About your thoughts, I don’t seriously believe that FF wimped out in worry about what would happen to his body after he’s dead. Do you honestly believe that he was ever concerned about feeling cold after dying?

          I don’t tink he’d pay any attention to the risk of vultures, wolves, ants, bears, coyotes, elk, moose, bison, dragonflies, red snakes, or beavers feasting on his dead body. And I’m not going to, at this time, go on and on and on about how a thirteen-year-old American guy thinks/thought.

          As always, this posting is part of my oPInion.

        • You just correctly showed what logic thinking is. Keep expanding on logic – the giddy location he always knew. He wanted to leave his car in a parking lot in Denver as part of plan A. So how was he to get to the hidey place under plan A scenario without being traced via a plane, bus or rental car? It wasn’t by horse and he didn’t plan on walking. Think of the poem as being a way for his family to find his remains instead of a chest of gold . His buddy did read the original poem and said it may be too simple so it was tweaked over 15 years or so. So if the place of rest didn’t change and he got to it from a car how was he to get to it without a car?

          • To All-

            Okay just finished catching up on new posts for the day and I have something to add and something to ask. Thanks to those who may agree about the car being left not far from the chests location. My original thoughts on that were based on the FF quote regarding walking back to his car laughing to himself about having just hid the chest. That, and the fact that he took two trips back and forth from his car to hide the chest. Obviously I believe he used his car and his feet and nothing else.

            That said, what is this about a plan A and wanting to leave his car in a Denver parking lot? I am not familiar with this so if someone could please explain I would be most grateful. And prior t knowing more about that plan, I would imagine FF didn’t intend for his family to go through what essentially the rest of the world is now going through in order to find his intended final resting place. Even if the original poem was much more simple, I don’t believe FF would have sent his distraught family on a wild goose chase just to find his body. With that in mind, I wouldn’t imagine him parking the car in a parking lot with a poem inside only to cause his family to have to travel a great distance to recover his body. Those are my preliminary thoughts and I will add more as they come in light of what I may learn about this original plan and parking the car in a Denver parking lot. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Maybe it would sinlgnify his being gone and to be found, similar to the Denver museum and the Folsom points. Maybe that the museum has secrets in it and in it’s artwork too.!

          • Ann,
            What I get from Doug’s comments about the plan to park the car at either NAU or the Denver museum is that it is possible to get to the hiding spot using planes, buses or trains and probably a bicycle at the end for a few downhill miles (leaving a short distance to be covered on foot). If it required a private vehicle to get only oneself to the location of the chest that wouldn’t seem to square with Doug’s comments. Forrest could have used the car to set everything up including putting the chest in it’s hidey spot. Then drove the car to the museum so that the location of it, when found, wouldn’t give away too much about the location of the chest and his bones.

            I don’t think Forrest intended to have his family retrieve his remains, after all the purported end of the earlier version of the poem was “… but leave my bones”.

            All my opinion.

          • JW, it does seem to make the most sense that he would hide the chest first, and then park the car before heading back to the chest. If that is the case then it makes you wonder why that would be a clue? Is it because wherever he was headed to via whatever mode of transportation put him close to the treasure site? Could it be within walking, or biking distance of a train station, bus stop, or airport?

          • JW and Others,

            Let it be kept in mind that FF had to transport 42 pounds of chest and treasure to the final location. I believe the consensus was that he did this in two trips in one afternoon. Parking a car and taking other modes of transportation to hide the chest and treasure is ridiculous in light of the fact that an 79-80 year old Fenn was hiding the chest without anyone else knowing (public transportation or any transportation involving someone other than himself would nullify having hidden the chest alone). And I seriously doubt FF made the trip so complex as to require others to make a similar trip. Remember the find is available to all and not just those with the means. Anything other than a car and your feet is beyond what the poem suggests. Why do we insist on convoluting the subject. Furthermore,, if I were to be hiding such a chest and treasure I would not make knowledge of the hiding place susceptible to the whims of others in the transportation process, whether by way of plane, train, bus or whatever other method you may be able to devise. It’s not like he was carrying around a prepaid debit card to hide. This is a heavy chest of noticeable size.

            The idea of hiding the chest first and then parking the car is more reasonable. And while you may not think he wished to have his bones retrieved, nonetheless families generally wish to be able to pay their respects and say their goodbyes. So again, I don’t think FF would have sent his family on a wild goose chase in order to mourn their loss. Without actually seeing his bones or some other note other than the poem, an abandon car in a parking lot will not indicate to the family that FF has gone off to hide a chest and die. They could just as easily think he was missing, which would lead to investigations. People don’t just leave their vehicles sitting in public parking lots and disappear on their own free will. Obviously it would raise suspicion. Anyways, I have exhausted enough time on this topic. While the parking lots mentioned in the plac discussed may not be close to the chest’s location, certainly somewhere drivable is. The question still remains, why those parking lots were mentioned. Perhaps the answer will be made more clear once the chest is found. Until then enjoy wondering. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • I can’t find any reference when FF said anything about his car being parked at a museum. I know Doug Preston said that FF was concerned about it. Or was he? Maybe it was just a joke, sort of like “the chest is 300 miles west of Toledo”.

            I doubt seriously that the hidey space is anywhere near the Denver Metro area.

            But he does indicate the car he used may have been rented.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b751uSghtE

            And it was a sedan.
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-hiding-the-treasure/

            Why would he rent a car instead of driving his own?
            https://dalneitzel.com/2013/02/23/scrapbook-thirteen/

            The big issue for me is:
            We know that the hidey spot was dear, very special, personal to FF. He has told us this. He also said there are subtle hints in TTOTC to help solve the clues in the poem.

            So where, in TTOTC, is there ANY suggestion, hint, or mild innuendo that the dear, personal, very special hidey space might possibly have a remote chance of being somewhere in Colorado?

            I just don’t see it. Can someone enlighten me, please?

            -Lori

          • Ann,
            I did state that he would have used a car to set things up and hide the chest, so I think we agree on that part. I’m just pointing out that there might be a nugget in here that the chest isn’t in a location that would require a private vehicle to get to provided it was just yourself, no chest or other luggage to weigh you down. So no 50 mile drive off the beaten track on dirt roads to get to the parking spot. But maybe 5-10 miles on level ground or downhill that could be done on a bicycle that you stashed beforehand. Hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

          • Lori,

            As you well I know I completely agree with you about the spot needing to be special to FF. I don’t know how much the book will tell us about the special hiding spot. That’s the one thing I feel is missing from the poem, any semblance of a direct connect to FF. And that’s also the problem I have in trying to determine which s[pts in the Rocky Mountains were “special” to FF. In truth, I don’t believe we need to know the location is special to FF. I believe the location is the location because it is special to FF. Would knowing which places he considers to be special help? Probably. But when I consider this aspect I often think of which places I consider special to me. I must admit I have more than a few. And I also must admit few others would know all, if any of those locations as being special to me. And while I have written about some in my poetry, such as the Cliffs of Moher, I admittedly have not written about every spot I consider to be special. Under that line of thinking I do not know that we need to know the special nature of the location to FF, even though I believe knowing so would prove useful. Can such information be ascertained from the poem and his books? I am not so sure. I imagine we will really only know after the chest is found. Then we will likely say, ahha! that’s why FF chose that location. And as you well know Lori, my difficulty in identifying any suggested solve is connecting it to FF, which brings us back around to why would this area or that area be special to FF. I do not mean to suggest Colorado is the state based on this conversation about parking lots. I only meant to point out that wherever the chest is hidden it is within walking distance of a place where one can park a car. Which brings me to JW.

            JW,

            I do not imagine FF rode a bicycle back and forth from his car to the hiding spot two times with half a treasure on his back at the age of 79-80. I don’t imagine he traveled very far outside of a vehicle period for that matter. I have stated elsewhere that the maximum distance of any walking ought not to exceed 5 miles as that would render the entire process a 20 mile hike!! 5 miles is much further than I would guess FF walked one way. I used 5 as the max since the Lincoln Pilgrimage is traversed in a single day every year by hundreds and that is just over 20 miles. Realistically, the distance needed to walk is more likely in yards. It’s not as if FF was out for a leisurely hike with a treasure in his pocket and happened upon a lovely spot in which to place it. We are talking about a place he had been to before, presumably, and which he found lovely to be in, and sometime thereafter when faced with looming death he decided that that spot he discovered and found and felt so fond of would be a good place to put a hidden treasure, and apparently his final place to rest. It could be a place as simple as my Cliffs of moher, which I have an absolute affinity for but have only ever been to once, or it could be something less subtle such as a particular hill at a place where I used to work which I doubt anyone (okay maybe one) would guess is equally special to me. Both are within walking distance to a parked car btw!

            Guessing about FF’s original plans and what reason, if any he would have parked a car in a particular parking lot , is a lot like guessing what legal ramifications may come with finding the chest. To be, both are quite distracting. I think if I knew why FF would park a car in a parking lot I’d already know where the chest was. And it better be in my car in that same lot! Perhaps we should all go to FF’s house and begin the search where he began the hide! After al, isn’t that where FF began the Chase when he followed the clues in the poem to hide the chest? And wouldn’t we all crap our pants if it was as simple as that! Some food for thought. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Zap,

            Very cool picture. “Cool” is an understatement in describing the Cliffs of Moher! Breathtaking, awe inspiring, moving, or as FF might say, marvel gaze! A quick examination of your one odd two evens requirement, means the space diagonal is also even. as well as two odd and one even face diagonal. The problem I foresee with that is that the space diagonal would have to simultaneously represent a sum of two odd squares as well as the sum of two even squares (and in reality the sum of another two (different than the first set) odd squares) Can a single even square be represented by all three at the same time? Off hand I don’t that answer. I do know that every integer can be written as the difference of two squares. And I know there are limitations on the sum of squares. I really need to check my notes! Definitely more to explore. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • David, Where did you see,, His buddy did read the original poem and said it may be too simple. Wouldn’t his buddy need to Know the exact location to come to such a conclusion? g

  31. Hi Lori
    Maybe I can help with the Denver Museum deal,there are a few key words
    here,how could he pull that off by himself without help?And I said this
    before.No way in heck could he do it by himself.And I am saying he didn’t
    have help.soo why did he bring everyone here?I ll let you all figure
    the rest out.Clint OMI

    • “… .No way in hell could he do it by himself.And I am saying he didn’t
      have help.soo why did he bring everyone here? …”

      ???
      I think I am more confused now than I was before I asked.

      -Lori

    • Per the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, I think its history has more to say than anything, but maybe that’s just me.

      • Srch12345,

        Regarding the Denver Museum of nature & science
        DMNAS, do you know if Forrest was involved with installing the outdoor, large elephant bronze at the Museum?

        • Setting things in motion…

          ‘The story of the Denver Museum of Nature & Science begins in 1868, when Edwin Carter moved into a tiny cabin in Breckenridge, Colorado, to pursue his passion: the scientific study of the birds and mammals of the Rocky Mountains. Almost single handedly, Carter assembled one of the most complete collections of Colorado fauna then in existence.’

          ‘Word of Carter spread, and in 1892, a group of prominent Denver citizens declared their interest in moving his collection to the capital city for all to see. Carter offered to sell the entire collection for $10,000. The founders also secured an impressive collection of butterflies and moths, and a stunning collection of crystallized gold.’

  32. Lori

    In the latest book page XI of the Forward by Douglas P

    He stated, “The final clue, he said, would be where they found his car: in the parking lot of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.”
    He had worked out all the logistics but one: how could he pull this off by himself.

    This was plan A before he knew he would live. He had already written the poem and brought it out and read it to Douglas. Douglas told him he thought the poem was too easy so FF tweaked it over the next few years.

    My point has always been this. FF originally planned to leave his car in that parking lot with the poem. FF planned to go to the same hidey spot that the chest is in now and die. How was he going to get to that spot in the original plan knowing he was starting in Denver where he is leaving his car. I think i already know how he did it without a car, bus or plane.

    When FF actually hid the chest years later he did drive a sedan and made two trips to hide it from the sedan.

    But this was not the plan originally. Hidey place remained the same.

    • Thank you, David.

      I understand all of that, but my question is:
      FF said all we need is TTOTC, the poem, and a good map. So how do I get from these things to Denver? There are no clues, hints or innuendo pointing to anywhere in Colorado.

      I understand the interest because of what Doug Preston has said. But that is the problem, it is hearsay and not something from FF. Should we discount it all together? Not necessarily. But without something from the “recommended tools” to suggest it, it doesn’t carry much weight with me.

      I am not trying to sound critical if it is coming across that way. I am truly interested in the thought process, ANY thought process, that goes from TTOTC to poem to Colorado. I am not asking for anyone’s secret clues, just an example.

      For instance, one could point to the photo on page 140 of Peggy, Kelly & Zoe. No doubt that these ladies are very dear to FF. At the top of that page is printed “Santa Fe, NM”. I can see how this could be a clue that the “special” place is in Santa Fe, NM.

      I am looking for something similar pointing to Colorado. I will be in Colorado in a few months for a family reunion, and I would like to have a general solve to investigate while I am there. I just don’t see anything pointing that way, and that is why I asked for help.

      Thanks,

      -Lori

      • There is that song by JD where he is born anew. Where he is leaving home and traveling home at the same time. Thus, the result of all his traveling will be to return to where he started and yet see it for the first time. Starwood in Aspen. He also finds a key to unlock every door. Just a few scraps to build from. Make of it what you will.

        Opto

        • Uh… ok.

          What does any of that have to do with the book or the poem?
          My question was, how do you get from something in the book to something in the poem to a place in Colorado?
          Your reply does not answer my question.

          – Lori

          • Well, John Denver is going home. You are going home. Page 140 is home. The song is about our place in the universe, self-reflection, seeing God in nature, and spending time with those you love. This is as concrete a connection as any I’ve seen so far as all seem tenuous at best and it’s a damn fun song to sing with a group of friends! If the poem isn’t about any of these things then what’s at the end of the rainbow? Stardust?

            Opto

          • If I understand what you are saying, page 140 (a picture of his wife & kids) is what you interpret as “home”. I get that.

            Then out of the thousands of songs about home, you picked John Denver and immediately think this is it, the treasure must be in Colorado?

            Good luck with that.
            I would love for someone to prove me wrong.

            – Lori

  33. I’ll keep this brief. Regarding the actual hidey space, anything DP said is perhaps some small hints that won’t help much, other than confirming a good solve. But taking them seriously is more of a rabbit hole than a benefit. All IMO. Hee hee!

  34. Can someone help male with something? In the “cheat sheet” I believe it says it’s not in a cave or mine or tunnel . Did I read this correctly? What is the reference for this? Did he say this in a particular interview and if so does anyone remember which one? Thanks- Matt

  35. The spot where FF hid the treasure is small , but the place or area he hid it is quite big . HE has said that it is a very special PLACE to him , not spot . just for fun , lets say that FF said that KANSAS was his one and only top pick of all the states , and he said he hid a treasure in his most special place [ KANSAS ] , so he puts a 10by10 box on the ground in that huge area , he leads us to the spot he left the box , not his special place . when someone finds the chest , they will be standing at the chest location which is within the special place . IMO

    • Hi JPE: you know all of these quotes, but I thought I’d stick them here in one place for others to ponder:

      HDNET World Report (4/2/2013) with Jennifer London:
      Jennifer: “How did you pick that particular spot to bury the chest?”
      FF: “Well, I don’t want to give too many more clues, but it’s a very special place to me. Otherwise, I would not have done it. I mean I just couldn’t take it out and bury it in the ground someplace where I didn’t know where I was. I think that was a crucial part of it.”
      Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk&index=20

      Moby Dickens Book Shop video (11/2/2013) at 17:40 mark: “That treasure chest – I’ve said it’s in a very special place to me, and if I get another disease, on my last dying gasp, I’m gonna throw myself on top of that treasure chest. And I’m gonna dare you to come find me.”
      Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RzrIu3hMec&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk&index=10

      MW Featured Question (8/19/2016): “Mr. Fenn, you have been quoted as saying the treasure chest is hidden in ‘A very special place.’ If a searcher should be fortunate enough to solve the poem, will he/she see the location as special place (by your definition) also, or will your reasoning be forever known only to you? ~ Thanks BW”
      FF: “I don’t know how to answer your question BW. People are so different. A writer from Manhattan came to see me. It was her first time out of the city. When I asked how she liked New Mexico she said, ‘There’s a sky,’ and she wasn’t kidding. At home she never thought to look up. She was thrilled when I showed her a cow. f”
      Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-theres-a-sky/

      Cynthia Meachum interview of Forrest (5/14/2019) first made public on (1/13/2020):
      Cynthia: “Okay, so Forrest, do you want to say hello to Andy?”
      FF: “Hi Andy, I’m Forrest Fenn. I’m here to answer your questions whenever you’re ready.”
      Cynthia: “Here we go. Has the location you have chosen for the treasure always had a special meaning to you, or did it become a special place later in life?”
      FF: “Well, Andy, ‘always’ is a long time. I will just say that, where I hid the treasure is a very special place to me, uh, and I really don’t want to elaborate on that.”

      • zaphod , thanks for reply , if you are understanding what i was saying , and i think you do , I believe that you are in his special place as early as the first clue , his special place is big , the hole search from beginning to end takes place within this place , but he had to give us directions on how to find the SPOT within his special place to retrieve the chest . IMO

      • Worth noting — I think this implies that he wouldn’t have to say much to give away something significant about the place. So, rather than risk that he doesn’t say anything at all. On other subjects he has more words.

    • JPE,

      I completely agree with you. I guess I’m just trying to sort out the size of the area. I will give you a for example: Let’s say the area is as boundless as the map FF provides. Let’s also say the Chase begins where FF himself may have begun the hide, for this hypothetical we will use his home in Santa Fe. Then I could postulate that WWWH is the Agua Fria of Santa Fe. Moving on from there, I could pick a canyon in the Rockies that is topologically lower in elevation than this Agua Fria (keep in mind this is all a hypothetical whether possible or not). This canyon would not be far but certainly too far to walk. So now I either take a car or plane or plane then car to appease the car minded searchers, and I travel down (in elevation) toward this canyon. At some point I would expect to come across the HOB (whether by landing (put in) or driving down into the canyon where the HOB may be.

      So now where I started in Santa Fe, I may find myself in or below (south of) a canyon as far north as Canada (because that is the upper limit of the map FF has given us) and I would still be in line with the first few clues.

      From there it’s n place for the meek. In the case of having landed the plane perhaps I need money to rent a car. N money would make me meek. Or in the case of being down in the canyon I am to set out on foot.

      The end id ever drawing nigh. Whether to my left or just upward in elevation this is likely directional or means drawing near. And that is true whether in a rental car or on foot at this point.

      No paddle up my creek and the rest of the chase follows in a similar manner. Dry creek. Creek not traversable by boat or use of a paddle. What have you. Te only difference between the two versions presented here is the degree to which the Chase covers the map. The only reason knowing how many days (or whether it was just one) that it took FF to hide the chest (round trip home to home? side trip while on business or vacation?) and where, in terms of WWWH, FF began the hide, is to better understand the undertaking required of FF to hide the chest, which in turn would help us the searchers know a bit more about how large or small an area the physical Chase covers. I can match the clues in the poem to as broad or as narrow an area as the map allows, leading me to a particular spot. And someone else could pick the same spot suing the exact opposite area defining parameters as me. So I have been fishing for more definitive information on the parameters of the area actually covered by the poem. It would greatly help to know if I am trying to marry the poem to a square mile area on the map or a fifty square mile area on the map. And btw, much of what is said here is not directed solely toward you. You just happened to be someone I aligned a similar thought with but wanted to expand on discussions elsewhere on this thread. And all is IMO>

      -Ann

      • Ann…I suspect you will come up with an empty creel on your fishing trip. If we knew the definitive answer to your question the chest may have been found by now! And Forrest, to the best of my imperfect knowledge, is not going to offer up that information. All other opinions are just that – empty speculation IMO.

        And to all who havent seen it already, Cynthia has a new video out and shares some concrete information.

        • When I think of concrete things, I think of things you can see
          and touch — like a piece of steel that contains cementite (used
          in the construction of the Eiffel Tower and McDonald’s restaurants. Geez.

          • TA.. ” concrete ” can be used as an adjective.
            “Geez”… my dictionary says that is short for “geezer”. Hehe.

        • Sally,

          It appears my line is indeed not taught! I would have imagined some would have a reasoned idea of how large an area the Chase actually covers. I get the feeling everyone (and not literally everyone Ken in Texas) is sort of throwing potential solves at a blank wall and seeing what sticks! I have seen several thoughts on what HOB is or where WWWH is but I haven’t seen much about why this or that is an ideal HOB or WWWH. Perhaps I’ll take another look at the poem! Thanks for your thoughts and I always enjoy your humor too. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • Ann, most if not all WWWH’s that are published are incorrect. I’m sure there are a few out there that have the correct one, and they aren’t talking about it. HoB is a different story IMO.

        • Sally Colorado – Did you mention ‘concrete’?:

          In the preface of his book “too far too walk”, he states “put a small rubber dingy in the Madison River a few miles from West Yellowstone and fished downstream to Baker’s Hole. The river distance was about 10 miles”

          “The river experience cemented my connection to that special country and I promised myself that someday I would make the trip again. THAT DAY NEVER CAME FOR ME,…. For me now, it’s just too far to walk.”

          From Jake’s “River Bathing is Best” solve. Thanks, Jake.

      • Ann , thank you for reply , just remember FF said to look at the BIG picture , I believe his special place to be big , but the chest is in a SPOT within his place . IMO

        • JPE,

          You’re going to have to give a more refined meaning of big. I am used to working with infinity and there isn’t anything much bigger than that! Also, if you know anything about the Mandelbrot Set, big can be perceptively deceiving! I’m pretty sure the chest is not in a spot much bigger than the chest! That’s a spatial joke for those watching these words too carefully! To be sure, it takes up no more space than it does! Hope this has given some something to smile about. Looking forward to your response. All IMO.

          -Ann

          • Ann , I can`t find anywhere that FF said just how big his special place is , so let`s pretend that we knew it was Yellowstone National Park , now that is a rather large area , he had to pick a SPOT in the Park [ his special place ] to hide the chest , it would be within his special place , there are many places in the Park that would fit his example of what one could see if standing at the chest , but he would have to pick one of them and then give us directions to it with the clue`s in the poem . i am not saying that it is that big but it is possible that his special place is a Valley or Mountain Top or maybe a stretch of river that he fished in . so I believe thereis a chance that all nine clue`s are within his special place. but just IMO.

        • Consider Fenn’s life — I think that’s the “big” picture. Considering all he’s done, and what he’s done, what sort of a spot would be special to him? Why would it be special to him? If we’re looking at a puzzle, I think the thing to look at is the cardboard that used to hold the pieces together, and where the holes are in that cardboard…

  36. Forgive me if this has been bantered about already. You could spend years reading all the comments here…The where is for you (or me?) to find out, but the how…Here’s what I think: I believe tarry scant, like everything in the poem, has multiple meanings. One being that he “sepulchered” Indulgence inside of a small box made of scant wood. Perhaps an old dynamite box. He weatherproofed the box, and slathered it with pine tar. Now why did he used to call the treasure Tarzan? Why indeed. IMO

    • Good question, Wanderer. I’ve been puzzled to the previous name. Tarzan was hidden under the canopies. He wrestled alligators…connection to the poem he likes to quote? Johnny Weissmuller played Tarzan…star crossing…comet? It’s fun trying to figure out the “why” he had chosen to name it such.

      • Hey Pdenver,
        Thanks for responding. Did you read my answer to the question? Reconsider this statement from Forrest:
        “You cannot smell a pinon nut, but those who pick them know that in doing so you get pine pitch all over your hands, and pine pitch smells about the same no matter what kind of pine tree you are talking about. Looking back I think I wanted to say I could smell pine needles, not pinon nuts. Sorry I kicked a hornet’s nest with that comment. There is no clue there. Incidentally, when I get pine pitch on my hands I rub butter on the spots and that solves the problem. Of course then I have trouble getting the butter off. f”
        I don’t believe he misspoke about pinion nuts, I believe it was an aberration…Bring some butter with you on your chase because you’re going to get some pine pitch (TAR) on you when find that box holding the chest. IMO

        • Hello Wanderer. It is possible you are correct in your thoughts. The “pitch” reminds me of Dizzy Dean, as well as, a pitch being a tone.

          • To speak assuredly round these here parts is to invite ridicule, but I have no doubt that he has secured the treasure from the elements. He has too much respect for history. How did he do this? This is what we speculate, but one of the main uses of pine pitch is waterproofing. Just sayin. https://youtu.be/MwHWbsvgQUE

          • I thought the reason he wanted a bronze chest was so that waterproofing would not be necessary. He expected moisture to get inside and that is why the olive jar with his autobiography is sealed with wax. I can think of better ways to waterproof than using pine pitch.

            Not saying you are wrong, it just doesn’t seem plausible to me.

            -Lori

          • I concur, Wanderer. Without getting tangled up with strings and get knotted up in our thoughts of the possibilities, I wouldn’t have the fond memories I have of the Chase.

        • Lori, I could be wrong I could be right. Only time will tell. However, the chest is wood plated in bronze, not solid bronze, if I’m not mistaken. By no mean waterproof in and of itself.

          • And btw, the chest itself is a historical treasure, if I recall correctly. Didn’t he pay something like $20,000 or something for it? Can somebody confirm that? I sure as heck wouldn’t leave it exposed, and I don’t think FF would have either. IMO

          • Pdenver, if I had to make a guess I would say no, that he tarred up the box before hand. Maybe one trip with the contents, one trip with an empty Indulgence within the tarry box, having that wrapped up in something to avoid needing the butter resolve post hidey.

          • Pdenver- I suppose he could have brought pine pitch with him to the spot and applied it on-site, but he would have to know that he would be alone for long enough for such actions to occur. First trip, the tarry box with Indulgence inside (and maybe some of the contents to divvy up the weight, second trip, the remainder…

          • I have always found this quote interesting. I assumed that he took the chest in first, put it in position, then came back and filled it. But that is not what FF says:

            “It was heavy enough that I made two trips to hide it. I took the gold in one time and then I took the treasure chest in the second time.” (23:44) (5/29/15)
            http://lummifilm.com/AUDIO/kvsf2015.mp3

          • Lori,
            There you go. Gold first! No chance of the unthinkable happening, a car break-in and theft of epic proportions!

        • LOL – I think he just “pitched” a tent or least spent the night.
          Why rush such an epic event like that?
          Perhaps he sat under a tree and relished the moment.
          You think we will ever know?
          I have faith and sure hope so.

          • PDenver – don’t you take your car with you on trips?
            So, he kept the 42 lb baby locked up in his car.
            Don’t think he said much about what he did afterwards accept laughing. He then could have just checked out and headed home.

          • Hello wwwamericana. Yes, I do. In the video, Mr. Fenn stated he laughed while heading back to his vehicle. To me, it didn’t seem like he had done the others as you suggested. Could be wrong.

          • PD – Why? Because he didn’t make mention of those particular actions. Well, imagine that.

            It does seem that tho he knows a lot of words, there are times when he thinks it better to remain silent and he passes. But he smiles and looks away.

          • Hello wwwamericana. We simply see things differently on this matter. I appreciate the discussion we’ve had.

        • Wanderer – Thank you that quote!

          There was fresh pine sap dripping from the bark of my Ponder•O•S•A pine tree, right above my hidey spot. I imagined a trapper’s cache below, with the bronze chest wrapped in animal skins, secured with pine tar.

    • Can you provide a link to where FF refers to the treasure as “Tarzan”?
      I’ve searched everywhere and can’t find it. Thank you.

        • Got it. Thank you, Wanderer!
          I must have misunderstood. I thought they were saying the treasure was named “Tarzan” but it was the chest.

          ” forrestfenn on October 11, 2014 at 1:45 pm said:
          I am finding photographs and notes that had long been forgotten. They are in old external hard drives. I named the treasure chest Tarzan and then changed it to Indulgence. Please don’t ask me why because sometimes I mystify even myself. f “

          • Lori,
            Forrest is full of fun & double entendre. It’s my opinion ff was having fun naming his bronze chest much like a boy would admire Tarzan’s bronzed chest.

            Forrest “May have” also thought of his admired artist
            Nicolai Fechin who was a Russian Tar Tar from the region of Kazan. Tar+Kazan =
            Tarzan.

            I wish he would expound on renaming the chest indulgence. I have two theories but no clue what ff meant by the name.

    • Wood and tar is flammable so if the chest is in the woods it would spell disaster for the microcrystalline wax on(in) the jar where his DNA and autobiography is.
      Why surround the chest in flammables???

  37. Just completed BOTG in Cortez, CO. 60 degrees and absolutely beautiful. Mud is way down and temps are up. Rangers are telling people that if you sink in the mud not to continue down the area roads. Some idiots put one foot deep ruts down several roads causing problems for everyone. I grew up in the Rocky Mountains and know a little bit about the area of the 4-corners. I have been on different digging sites and have spent months sifting dirt. In fact, in my pocket is a piece of coal from a fire-pit dating back 12,500 years. My “where warm waters halt” is an area where 1,000 years ago water halted leaving a population of 80,000 looking for a place to live. Ever since I was old enough to walk I have hiked these Canyons of The Ancients in every direction for 100s of miles. This is not Mesa Verde but close and a lot bigger. In fact I live at it’s northern end a 4 hour drive. My hidey spot is in a canyon where water enters from above, not saying a waterfall, but a natural spring coming from the side of a cliff falling into a small pool only big enough for me and my wife to sit in. To give you a visual, while sitting in the pool, about the size of a bathtub, you are surrounded by 3 story stone buildings that look like brick building built with extremely talented hands. These building were made 1,000 years ago. Nobody is here, so private. This has to be it!!! The problem is that there are 1000s of these sites that nobody knows about. We know of roughly 6,000 sites and archeologist believe we only have found 10%. I thought I was close but I have been BOTG over 200 times in 5 years and have searched in every state included in the Chase. I know not to get too excited.

    I grew up in these here mountains and when someone tells me that they would want to be buried here I have to ask why? To me the Rocky Mountains means hard times and a 1000 ways to get yourself killed. Be Careful!!!!

    Good Luck Everyone. Whomever finds it should plan on returning and leave something special and pass on “The Thrill of the Chase.”

  38. My Double Omega theory and how it relates to the Hidey Space….
    Just a theory, folks! So here it goes……
    We know that in the first editions of TTOTC, there were two Omegas used as the colophon in the back of the book. Then Forrest changed it to just one Omega.
    IMO, the Hidey Space is a spot where someone close to Forrest died, is buried or whose ashes are scattered there. Perhaps even a beloved pet?
    This is the first Omega, or ending, in that spot.
    The second Omega represents Forrest, since his original intention was to die and have his bones left in the same location. When it became obvious to Forrest that this wasn’t going to happen (He says he is too old to travel back to that spot), he removed the Omega that represented himself.
    So now there is just the remains of that one special person there, so one Omega.
    “Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.”f
    Thus, the deeply personal nature of that space to Forrest.
    “A kid can do a lot of thinking in a graveyard.”f

    • Joe – Interesting thought, but do you know which printing was when the one Omega was first in place? I just recently (2 years ago) bought the book and I have an 11th printing and it has 2 Omegas. Seems like it should have one at this point according to your theory.

    • Hi Joe: all versions of TTOTC to my knowledge have two omegas. Likewise TFTW. Where the omega count changes is from having none in OUAW to having a solitary omega in OUAW-Revised.

      But all the cyberspace verbage about omegas seems destined to be fruitless:

      Quote to Dal from Forrest when asked about the double omegas (11/19/2013): “the relevance of the double omegas will go to the grave with the man who wrote the poem”.
      Link: https://dalneitzel.com/2013/11/19/scrapbook-fifty/#comment-27861

      • Zaphod,

        Thank you for the additional correction and reminder about Forrest’s quote.
        I would say we have a genuine mystery on our hands!
        Who else was with Forrest at his secret spot? That is the question.
        -Joe

      • Thanks for sharing that Zap. I knew if anyone would have the answer, you would! LOL! And interesting remark from Fenn on the double omegas. But have to agree, it will not help solve the poem. IMO

      • If the double omegas go to the grave with the man who wrote the poem… Then they’re pretty close to blaze. Just sayin’, if we take that literally.

  39. Geysergirl (and everyone else!),
    I apologize! The single Omega colophon appears in TFTW, not a revised version of TTOTC!
    Thanks for the correction!
    My theory remains in tact, though.

      • David,
        Yes, I’ve been away from the search for a while, so I’m a bit rusty on details.
        I apologize for wasting space on this valuable forum with inaccurate information.
        Sorry guys!
        I will chastise myself with some serious catch up study time, immersing myself in the FACTS of the chase, before making further comments on this or any other forum…..
        Sincerely,
        The guy in the corner of shame wearing the dunce hat

        • Joe,

          Hey, pull up a chair. The dunce cap will come in handy. So whatcha drinkin? I heard Lassie ate so much watermelon that she became a bit MellonCollie?

          I like your thought process. You make some thought provoking observations.

          Welcome back from your hiatus. Keep up the good work!

          Omegas could be used metaphorically as well. Maybe one was discovered and one is still out there marking the spot?

          Good luck and keep it up!

          ByGeorge

          • Thanks By George and By Joe, I know the feeling. That dunce cap has crowned me countless times!

  40. I believe the hidey place to be 500ft off a pretty populated road , and 200ft off a very unpopulated trail , the trail goes from put in to HOB , there is also HL and WH up the trail at HOB , I think the poem is telling us that we don’t need to paddle up our creek cause there is nothing of interest up it but HL and WH . the few searchers that walked right by the chest went all the way to HOB , HL, and WH . when you reach the creek , you go up it to verify that there are the three things up there and then go back to where you were and leave the trail you are on and go into the woods , to the left 200ft , as you are entering the wood you will start to see the blaze , the closer you get the bigger it gets , look quickly down your guest to cease . IMO

  41. Forrest said that a person could walk right to the TC by using the poem, but dare I say that I see a distinct possibility of this being a problem. Using the poem, it looks like even getting within 12′ of the hidey space might not be possible, especially when faced with: 1) Following the clues consecutively. 2) Given a margin of error in interpretation. 3) Having several final targets to choose from.
    Would trial and error be the only means of getting within 12′ of finding the TC?

    • Quency;

      If I may be so bold as to examine your post:

      “Forrest said that a person could walk right to the TC by using the poem,

      >>> This is not a quote, but true at face value.

      but dare I say that I see a distinct possibility of this being a problem. Using the poem,

      >>> If you do not use the poem, what else can you use?

      it looks like even getting within 12′ of the hidey space might not be possible, especially when faced with: 1) Following the clues consecutively.

      >>>Why does following the clues consecutively make it impossible, or at least harder in your estimation?

      2) Given a margin of error in interpretation.

      >>>Of course, there will be differences in interpretation – THAT is what the Chase is all about.

      3) Having several final targets to choose from.

      >>> There will be several final targets to choose from ONLY if THAT is how you interpret the poem. IMO if you interpret the clues correctly, you will have only one final place to look – but that is just me.

      Would trial and error be the only means of getting within 12′ of finding the TC?”

      In a sense yes. We all figure out a solve, put BotG and “Try” out our solve. When we fail, we re-evaluate, and try again. I guess that that is trial, and error. Trial and error until at last you DO figure it out correctly.

      Forrest said that it would be difficult, but NOT impossible. It has taken almost 10 years and over 250,000 searchers, but this just might be the year. All we can do is have faith that it IS possible. Don’t throw road blocks up for yourself – HAVE FAITH and BELIEVE that YOU CAN do it!!! JMO – JDA

      • P.S. I see “Following the clues consecutively” as a HELP, not an obstacle or hindrance. If the clues are not in order, the solving of the puzzle would become thousands or even millions of times harder.

        If 9 clues – in consecutive order there are only 9 possibilities – 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. That is all.

        If NOT in consecutive order it could be ANY mixture – 1,9,2,7,3,5 etc.
        The permutations are in the millions probably. If I figured it out correctly, that is over 387 million.possible combinations of the 9 numbers. Be thankful that we are told that they ARE in consecutive order – and he has even told us what #1 is, so we know where to start. JMO – JDA

        • Hi JDA,
          potentially you can skip several first clues and start BOTG at clue #4-5. Forrest said that if you know the hoB it’s not necessarily to start at WWWH. Maybe he gave us a hint here – all clues after hoB can be solved only via BOTG and “they ARE in consecutive order”.
          Most likely that PIBOTHB leads you only to “general area” and this area is huge. If you can’t crack other clues after the hoB you need many years of searching to found TC in this area. Maybe 200-500 feeters were trying this simple but useless approach i.e. roaming over this huge area with hope that they will recognise the blaze. If you calculate approximate time to search several square miles area with this approach you will never even start. IMO but blaze can’t be found without finding HL and WH points.

          • New Zealand Interview 2013

            “The first clue in the poem is ‘begin it where warm waters halt’. That’s the first clue. If you can’t figure that clue out you don’t have anything.”

    • I appreciate all the help.
      There seems to be only one logical solution, but then again I’m going by my dogmatic belief and probably not Fenn’s.

    • Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey
      Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-blaze-measurement/

      Stop worrying about where OR how the chest is hidden… we’re looking for the blaze.

      • The blaze is the culmination of the clues that led us up to the point in the poem where we LQDYQTC, making that action the last thing we do to find the chest—we look quickly down (as in look smartly down) while at the spot where the trail of prior clues has led us. LQD is the last clue since clues point us to the chest (“A clue will point you toward the treasure chest, and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”) (https://santafe.com/podcasts/forrest-fenn-treasurer-hider-author-gallery-owner-and-santa-fe-legend)

        The past tense of the IYHBWAFTB line makes perfect sense if we have been following the blaze from one end to the other, knowing full well FF wants us to follow his rainbow (“So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:” Pages 131-132 of Forrest Fenn’s book entitled The Thrill of the Chase) especially since (imaginatively) a rainbow has 2 ends.

        The hidey space is at the end of the FF’s blaze of clues.

        IMHO

        • Bowmarc;

          I disagree 100%. Foe me, the blaze is clue #5 – still 4 more clues to go. If the blaze is the last clue, why did Forrest write two more stanzas? If the blaze is something that “Points the way” to where Indulgence is, I doubt that “Looking quickly down” is going to reveal it. To me, and that is just me, the remaining 2.5 stanzas tell you WHERE to look, and WHAT to look for when you “Look quickly down.” If I am at the blaze, is Indulgence on the north, south, east, or west side of the blaze, or any direction in between? How close is it to the blaze? 3′, 6′, 30′ or 60′ – SOMETHING has to get us more precisely to where it is at. Is it lying on the ground, under a rock, in a hole, in a hole in a tree? Too many possibilities – SOMETHING (next 2.5 stanzas???) must narrow down out choices. Forrest says (paraphrasing) that we must follow the clues precisely in order to find Indulgence. We need more info than just 2.5 stanzas to get this preciseness, we need the whole poem – JMO – JDA

          • Yes, JDA, we need the whole poem, and so does FF to make this thing difficult but not impossible. He accomplishes that by including the first stanza (which you did not mention at all) and the last two. Collectively, those 3 stanzas are the architecture which house the actual clues, thereby making them hints, which help with the clues, if you can understand that.

          • I agree Bomarc, the architecture looks pretty good to me to build all of the hints around 9 clues. The clues are the beams of a house and the clues are the finishes surrounding them.

    • Quency,
      Even 12′ allows too much room for f to manuvre. So how about something a little closer to home… “There have been four or five people that know exactly where the treasure is, but when they go there the treasure is not there.” (what he says directly following those words appears to be a summation of the “searchers” thoughts,IMO) -“The Santa Fe New Mexican” video, 2015: it’s a 2 min. video with 3 Q&A’s. You have to listen closely to the wording between the first question, and the last.

      so What gives…???

      • miafarmerfriend, I’ll have to say that I’m definitely in with the group that lack the money. But with that being said, I’m not sure that will ever tear me away from the adventure or stop me from star ting one more round. That double ending is in those woods somewhere. I think that if I can get to within 12’, there has got to be at least a clue that would give me title to the gold.
        But on that note, you wouldn’t be trying to talk me into saving some money, would you? In your opinion, are you saying I’m still missing something?

        • Quency,
          Above and beyond anything else, I’m saying it sounds like a handful of searchers have been to the exact location and yet here we are five years later still chasing our tails. It’s not my place to say whether you’re still missing something or not, but it sure the hell seems the rest of us are, lol!

          I’m a decent carpenter (and I know 1 2:), although I still lack the force to drive that last nail home! 🙂

      • The only other option is that your referring to “I give you…” in the poem. Of course everybody knows that this line refers to “Forrest” giving the title to the gold. I couldn’t see it any other way.

  42. That has been my thought for a while now. IMO it is the second clue. Why ff stated people had correctly solved the first two clues but then walked by the treasure.

    Direction and distance IMO…then PIBTHOB as second clue. All others IMO after this clue are within 500ft of where you need to be.

    • It’s been my understanding that all the clues should be valid and usable for about ten thousand years. I don’t expect that either the thread or the hidey space is under a tree that will live for about another ten thousand years. As always, IMO.

      • In 50 to 100 years when the tree dies, it will have spawned another one or two or so offspring.

        I get your point, but there may be a clue between the blaze and the hidey space. The tree cover may not be as important as the view from its lowest branches. Some high regard. Some higher thing. Some reason to remember to look up. Something the finder hasn’t considered.

        Just now Link Wray’s “The Shadow Knows” come on my radio. Spooky.

        Good luck with yours. I booked a flight in July for mine and now I wonder if traveling will still be legal then.

        • Agreed Aaron,
          why would Fenn make the poem harder after it’s written by giving bogus information in interviews while trying to promote The Chase?
          Doesn’t make sense unless he’s being intentionally deceitful and I don’t think that’s the case.

          He is surly giving a hint by saying “That sounds like three or four to me”.
          I
          M
          😉

          BTw, I think the hidey space is somewhere in the wise area/spot on the way to heavy loads & water high.

  43. I’m looking for help reasoning through 2 Questions from anyone… and thanks!

    1. If you found Fenn’s “running man” aka stickfigure adjacent a trail, how far away would one need to move to be at the hidey spot since ff said, “There isn’t a human trail in very close “proximaty to where I hid the treasure.”

    https://mysteriouswritings.com/whats-close-proximity-featured-question-with-forrest/

    2. Why did Forrest misspell proximity as “proximaty”? He was asked about it and did not address question or correct the mistake.

    If the word is not actually a word, does it mean the treasure could be near a trail? Could it be in close proximity to trail, just not Very close proximity?

    Not new questions, but I do believe I found the running man. Although it’s it’s adjacent to a Trail.
    (nope, not carved on the tree by a searcher) different form of stickmsn art)

    • 42 – Where I’m hoping the treasure is, it’s almost half a mile from a human trail. I’ve always thought that not in close proximaty must be several hundred feet or more. 500 sounds good to me

      Why “maty” and not “mity”. The only thing that comes to mind is matey, as in “Ahoy there matey”. You know, like a chum or a pal or a friend. I lean towards it just being a misspelling that he didn’t bother to correct.

    • 42;

      Every searcher will probably have their own idea. My rule has been “Close proximaty” (See I mis-spelled it) = 100′ and “Very close proximaty” = 25′. Why did he misspell the word? Probably to bring attention to it – Like the capital “B” in hoB. By misspelling it, one will naturally take a second look and say to oneself “OOPS – something is wrong here, maybe I should reread it” thus emphasis. – JMO – JDA

    • Hi 42… searcher Milan asked a Q some years back( featured Q at Jenny’s) about Fenn’s various references to his use/s of proximity in his stories etc. Fenn’s response gives a good idea how he see it…. Hope all is well with all searchers.

      • I’m self- quarantine having a case of Corona… with my buddy-wiser , Jack Daniels, and Jim Beam.
        Thanks for asking, Ken.

      • Hey Ken, just saw your response in the mix, and appreciate your help and kindness to check on health if all here.
        I’m thankful our family has emerged from 14 days quarantine after exposure to a friend from NYC who was confirmed and sick. We are all gratefully doing well.
        Stocked up on food & supplies and being very cautious.

        • Good to hear that you’re OK 42. And thanks ken for the concern.

          I’m mostly staying at home as I’m in the Seattle area. I’m also putting off my plans to go BOTG in April. No point in risking exposure to myself or others for something as non-essential as this. I’m looking at this as a good time to read the poem another few thousand times.

          • Same here JW. Over here in Issaquah, but work for Sound Transit in Seattle. Why I returned to the blogs, as I need something to occupy my brain.

    • 1a. The hidey spot should be at least 200 feet away from a trail or people would have been closer than that. Trails are used every day in the mountains by both hikers and searchers.

      1b. The blaze being a stick figure carved into a tree doesn’t make sense to me. We should be able to figure out what is the blaze from within the poem rather from scrapbooks, I think. You have to remember this one from Jenny’s site:

      “I had an enjoyably [sic] visit with Tom and his brother at the Downtown Subscription Coffee Shop in Santa Fe. They seemed like nice guys and avid treasure hunters. But there is confusion somewhere. While it’s not impossible to remove the blaze it isn’t feasible to try, and I am certain it’s still there.” 9/26/14

      2. I think Forrest misspelled proximity because his spell check was switched off.

      • @Everyone who responded,
        Thanks for offering help with my questions.

        @muset, I agree with you. It’s doubtful that the running man is the Blaze. I dont consider it to be the blaze, rather I think ‘running man’ Maybe an indicator that you are in the vicinity of TC.

    • 42, for “close proximity”, look at scrapbook 113. He basically defines it as
      2 1/4″. Which helps, like, not at all.
      For “maty”, that is basically slang for “half”, or “halfway”.
      It’s all up to your interpretation.

      • It’s like f is saying that there is no trail within 1 1/8″ of the chest. So, by f’s words, and by definition, and not from what searchers think, there is not a trail within 1 1/8″ from the chest. Like I said, helps, like, not at all. It’s just f being sneaky.

        • PoisonIvey…I think the “right map” might have a scale of 1″ to 1 mile. So, with that logic the chest is a bit over 1 mile from the nearest trail.

    • 1) Don’t know
      2) He misspelled it on purpose in my opinion.
      – It could be near a trail. In my solve, this quote is not saying that the solution to the poem does not lead you to a place that is not near a trail. In my solve the end of this puzzle is much more complex than that. When you get to the proper location there are some things to figure out that you don’t know about yet. I wouldn’t say they were difficult compared to the rest of the solve, but leave it to Forrest to not just lead you straight to it plain and easy. The clues do lead you straight to what you’re looking for, but at the end it’s not as simple as walking up to a spot and digging a little. It’s easier to get it than that in a way, but there’s a little “game” you play first. And this quote about ‘proximaty’ relates to that game as do many of the verbal and illustrated clues that he’s given.

      I shouldn’t be posting any more of course, but let me try to think of a simple example as my final farewell post. Here’s a good one. In one of the books there’s a photo of Forrest’s daughters when they were young. Theare sitting next to each other almost looking like twins, although I don;’t think they are. The caption of the photo tells us that the one of them is Kelley, and the other’s name is Zoe. Now look at their hair. The hair on their heads are cut and styled in a way to resemble the Omega symbols at the end of the books. Two Omegas side by side. One is named Kelley and the other is named Zoe. Whatever the Omegas mean, then the girls and or their names have some relationship to that that could help us.

      But we all just thought it was a nice picture of Fenn’s kids, put in the book for no reason other than to show us his family and all of that. It’s a coincidence that they look like the Omega symbols. Right? It’s a coincidence that he makes spelling mistakes. Right?

      The difference is that since I noticed the hair looking like the Omega symbols, and I already knew or believed I knew what that meant, to me it looked more like intentional placement than coincidence. So if you knew what “proximaty” meant in relation to the solve, it would look less like a mistake and more like a clue.

      This particular clue, in my view, only makes sense if you already know something else. But it is a nice one because if you aren’t at the end yet but still know enough to get what it’s saying, then it tells you something you haven’t figured out yet. But most of the time a verbal or visual clue given is only understood after the thing it’s trying to tell you has already been figured out. But not always.

      People say confirmation bias and that’s fair. But I think that to disprove that to us, Fenn gives multiple clues that tell us the same thing. So that we know it’s not a coincidence nor is it confirmation bias. The probability of those goes way down when there are so many clues telling us the same thing.

      According to my solve, this particular clue gives us a large area and within that area a smaller one, and then within that area it tells us a very small area is where what we seek is located. And even if you don’t know where on the map that is, if you are close to the end of the solve it still tells you an exact spot relative to something else. It’s a pretty good clue in my opinion.

      But that’s all according to my solve. If I’m wrong, then the answer to your question is simply “I don’t know”.

    • You are welcome – Just how I see it. In reality, the nearest trail is between 50 – 100′ away from where I think Indulgence rests – JDA

  44. What gives? How can anyone attempt to find the treasure when you guys keep untying their boot laces? Looking down at my own boots (and with all the BOTG trips I’ve made), they’re already nearly broken in half!
    Thanks guys… just thanks! lol

  45. 42,

    Just my put, I would think not in very close proximaty (proximity) to a human trail would be about 300′ minimum. This could account for your running man. Pure speculation, but maybe that indicates 100 yards in the direction it is facing.

    Also as further speculation, i think the misspelling is to just reiterate, it doesn’t really matter as long as you get the intent.

    That’s all I got.

  46. Question for the wise?
    Did Forest make a comment something to the effect …….that you might find yourself back where you started from? Where would I find this statement?

        • One note on this quote (and not to dampen any thoughts about the direction one must travel mid chase):

          IF we begin the Chase by getting into our car, and after finding the chest we get back into the car to go home, we have in essence arrived where we started.

          As a former track runner I am reminded here of the 400m race (one lap around the track) or even the mile (four laps around the track). I always thought it ironic that so much effort is put into running so far as fast as one can, only to arrive where one has started! It’s as if they had never gone anywhere at all. Just some thoughts.

          -Ann

          • Also:

            In terms of direction mid chase, it may be that FF was referring to one way in, one way out. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Great perspective Ann…that’s why I never ran track!

            I interpret Forrest’s meaning behind his use of the quote as returning to “home” or family.

      • In my solve ending at the same place you started refers to something in the solve that you don’t know about until you start getting it solved. It is not in my solve, referring to a location that you end up at being the same location where you started. It is something that is the same as something else, but not the same GPS location.

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