Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Two

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608 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Two

    • Thank you for the link, Dal. I like the sketch up for bidding. Mr. Bodelson has a gift I wish I could have.

        • (public service announcement) a fake bidder however was the reason for the bid, for those of you thinking about a future drawing being auctioned.

          ….. a bid of $1500 from a false account is what I am talking about ….

          (fake bidder being someone who just created the account only to screw up an auction (run up the price), the account has no feedback, and the only thing ever bid on was that item)

          so there is no telling what the real going price is for these type of items.

          The only thing we know for sure is the finally bidder way over paid. (in otherwords don’t be that guy/gal)

          eBay of course could easily stop such things (bidding on item over certain price by new bidder, must deposit that money, and eBay holds that money for 30 days even if bidder does not win)… suddenly no more fake bids…. imagine that… 🙂 but they appear to not care…. obviously, being theirs and paypal’s (company owned by eBay) already inflated fees became more inflated.

          even better to stop fake bidding, eBay registers the “account” numbers of when money is deposited for this purpose, to cut fake bidding even more from someone doing it professionally…

          capitalism… got to love it… only a mother could love sort of love…

          • Writis, thanks for your knowledge on this “fake account” bid. I have no knowledge of who or why that person placed that bid and would do such foolishness, however, I can clarify that EBay did retract that bid and the ones that immediately followed it, so the auction resumed at the previous bid and when the final bid and actual winner won the auction it was through a fair auction.

          • Hi Nelika: do you have other illustrations that you plan to put up for auction? Are they all from TFTW, or do you have some from TTOTC?

        • zaphod73491,
          Yes I have the ones from TTOTC & TFTW but I will not be selling any of the TTOTC ones and only a selection from TFTW. I will post here once they are listed.

          • Hi Nelika: well, you’re in a unique position because you have the opportunity to compare what’s in the illustrations with what ended up in the books. For instance, the one you recently auctioned from TFTW: is it mirror-reversed (as it appeared in your auction) relative to what’s in TFTW? Also, there is what appears to be a looping fishing line with a lure on the end in your version that is absent from the one on TFTW page 8.

  1. Dal,

    Very interesting! As I Don’t have a copy of the book I am not privy to the illustrations! Thanks for sharing.


  2. Hi everyone,
    I’m sitting here looking at my options for this year’s search trip(s). I couldn’t go last year because of work obligations, but this year I will make a concerted effort to make what will likely be my last effort to solve the poem and find the chest. I have vacation time scheduled for the end of spring and another week near the end of the summer. I know that both times can be greatly affected by weather. That was the case 2 years ago when I was chased out of the Rocky’s by monsoon rains and hail.

    I was wondering if others have started making their plans to get boots on the ground like I am? I’m more excited this year than I’ve been in the past, as I think I have narrowed down my search area to a fine point. That’s why this will be my last trip to search… I can’t imagine that I could come up with a better solve than what I have, so I won’t try. That’s not saying that I’m right, its more that I’m not that smart! lol

    At this point, I’ve not decided on the best time to go. I suppose it all depends on the weather between the Rocky’s and Ohio. I plan on driving my old truck and I hate driving in terrible weather for long distances! As I said, I am really getting excited and I am counting the days! Does anyone else have their plans ironed out yet? Am I jumping the gun??

    I just hope this is a safe and fun search year for everyone!! Happy hunting!!


    • I like to go at the start of summer , no snow or mud . You can hike better. Faron young for Canada ,I Travel 1600 mile to my area. Going in June , Forrest Fenn mention my small town in :the Thrill the Chase : Do you know where I’m from.

      • I suppose the start of summer is about the same as the end of spring… lol. I have no idea where you’re from. i wish you safe travels and good luck!


    • Yes TimM,
      My plans are set in stone. Driving from Pa with my son. It can’t come soon enough.

      • Hello TimM and all: Yes, I have some unfinished business in the Rockies too. I am running through my head over and over again about the place that I have chosen to be the spot for the treasure. Most all of the poem is relative to this beautiful area that is my search area. The snow in December stopped me from being able to achieve my final destination; not, from lack of trying! The snow was a difinite deterrent along with the snow-covered boulders! I looked at GE yesterday to get my bearings to be able to be successful. So, here I sit, patiently waiting for the right time to go back to my search area. I’m looking forward to it. As I wait; I go over the poem in a more simplified manner than I did before. It still points to one area.
        Thanks to an interview that I heard while I was traveling from Mississippi to Oregon; Mr. Fenn and Mr. Dalneitzel held my interest in the treasure hunt. I felt like: “If anyone can find it, I can”! So that’s where my life and thoughts have been since July 2019. I’ll never look back on this as any type of bad or wrong experience; it has actually made my life in my golden years. Good luck and GOD Bless all of you treasure hunters; y’all are a diverse group. I really love y’all and you, too-Mr. Fenn!

        • Rosezel Allen,

          there’s no way I’d try a trip in December!! I am trying to wait patiently too. I try not to think too much about my solve because I tend to overthink it, which may send me down rabbit holes. I feel like I have a really good solution and I don’t want to mess with it any more.

          Good luck this year and safe travels!


      • Eaglesbound,

        that’s a long drive isn’t it? From where I live in Ohio to my search area is about a 24 hour drive. When I drove it last time, I did it in 2 days. It was rough because I have a bad back. I agree that it can’t come soon enough! I’ve never felt this confident and maybe that’s what it’ll take!


        • It’s a very long drive. I’m on the east side of Pa, so it’s that much longer..
          Good luck in your search and enjoy the trip!

          • I drove last year and went in memorial day weekend. It was too cold and snowy to get to my solve. I am going from Ohio this year in July. Dont want to risk the bad weather again. Safe travels.

    • Hi TimM – The Rockies got snow very late into the Spring last year and the higher elevations weren’t thawed out until the beginning of July. I’m hoping that we’ll get a nice, early Spring thaw this year to balance last year out, but if I were in your shoes I think a September trip out would be the safer bet. Of course, with the weather it’s always a roll of the dice no matter what we decide! I’m hoping to start searching in June, but that’s for the snow to decide.

      • Blex,

        I was hoping for good weather 2 years ago and it didn’t pan out. I was less than a mile and a half from my search area when it started pouring rain and hail. I was on a dirt road so I didn’t want to take a chance on getting stuck!


    • Monitor the weather conditions in your search area and plan accordingly. It is currently 1°F in my area(!)

      • Randawg,

        I started watching the weather in my search area about a week ago. Since I’m from Ohio (mostly flat land) I am not sure how to judge the weather in the Rocky’s. I know everyone says it can change in an instant due to the mountains. When I drove there 2 years ago, I ran into the most daunting storm I’ve ever seen!


        • Here is how to judge the weather in the Rockies:, if you don’t like how it looks now, wait 5 mins.. I never understood the purpose of weather women/men when I grew up in the Rockies, because they never seemed to get past 50/50.. Then I went to a masters program in Arizona, and those weather people were correct 100% of the time… (sunny and hot). I figured out weather people’s purpose… to make people think they have some inside information, like the stock market.

          I am fairly certain that by natural selection, all wildlife have extremely strong hearts, as when you’ve ever been in a thunderstorm in the summer while “camping” where the strikes a few miles away makes your “sedan” rock side to side, because you are in a canyon where there is no where for the air pressure to go except to make things move, giving a nice cradle feel as you sleep.. hey I know how to “camp” 🙂 you begin to wonder what in the world a bear or deer think during these times, I expect a knock on the door someday from some bear wanting to get in away from the onslaught.

    • I’m starting to get a rough idea of when I might go search this year. I think it’s probably good to wait and see what the “surprise” is before booking anything, just in case.

    • My wife and I are planning an early September BOTG. We have a new search area. New sites to see which will be fun. I doubt we’ll find the indulgence but it’s the Thrill of the Chase and new adventures that keep us going.

      Have fun and stay safe.

      • Kurt,
        I hope you have a good time in your new area! Us Ohio folks are always in awe when we travel to the Rocky’s, or the west in general! Sadly, my wife wasn’t able to get off from work so I will be going alone. She loves it out there and can run circles around me. September is sounding better and better.


        • Brian u,

          my first time out about 4 years ago I could hear rattlesnakes singing on both sides of the path I was walking. When I got back to the car and started to leave, a 4 footer crawled across the road in front of me. I’m not all that worried about snakes because I have had my fair share of encounters. Bears, on the other hand… I will take every precaution!!


          • I don’t like bias tires on my General Lee. I only use radials, they drive smoother and make it easier to read a map when I’m jumping Ravines ye ye ha.

    • TimM & others
      I WOULD NOT get very
      “” SPRINGISH” except
      perhaps below 8K elv.
      And even that, depending on the year might be a bit
      “” iffy ”
      Mountains, in CO at least, have on occasion, received
      terrific snow storms on
      Memorial Day..
      Nothing to be done about those surprises, .
      In General, though, there are boo-coo resources available to you in this day and age.
      If nothing else, for the more base elevations of your area, there might be
      hwy web cam pics.

      • Memorial day? I went skiing on July 4th… and got snowed on… at a ski area that was still open. Imagine the cojones on a ski area that stays open through to july… they don’t make them like that anymore, nor does the weather… well way back before climate did what it tends to do… change.

  3. This message is in response to questions from Ann O’Nymous, from the Odds ‘n Ends page just closed.

    Hi Ann …

    You asked: “… which map ought to be used”.
    Without knowing your WWWH, any state road map will suffice. I like the commercially available maps available online, sold as state road atlases; so you get all 4 states in one atlas. After you have settled on a WWWH you are happy with, you’ll need a much more detailed map.

    You asked: “are you marrying the poem to the map you are using based solely on geographic knowledge of the Rockies?”

    No. You don’t really need to know the geography of the entire Rocky Mountains. I marry the poem to one or more maps that cover only the geographic area that the first clue in the poem has led me.

    This general area where I think chest is hidden is fairly big and certainly cannot be hiked in an afternoon. But being confident that the chest is within this area eliminates perhaps 99 percent of the Rockies. The remaining 8 clues then all live within this larger area. Pretty simple.

    You wrote: “I would be interested to know how geography alone, without reference to the ATFs, is something the poem suggests as the way to marry the two”.

    Well, Forrest has said that everything a searcher needs to find the chest is in the poem. Which by definition would include geography. And searcher must begin with WWWH. So searcher needs to TRUST Forrest that the poem alone does contain the geography of WWWH. As I said in the other thread, it’s amazing to me that most searchers don’t seem to trust Forrest, on that quote of his.

    So, you will need to read the poem over and over and over. Memorize it. Then read it again over and over, from memory. Stay away from extraneous resources like TTOTC, scrapbooks, and so on. Yes the task is hard. But with your background in math, logic will not be a problem. You will also need to apply some imagination. And keep an open mind.

    Don’t put a lot of stock in what you read on message boards or see and hear on YouTube videos. The search “community” has evolved (or devolved) certain assumptions that I think are false. But in the community these assumptions are taken as facts. To me, that’s a demonstration of group-think. That’s why it’s important to keep an open mind. When you are alone, do some deep, heavy-duty thinking about the contents of the poem. This project requires very little online research, but a LOT of thinking.

    And don’t rush. That chest isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • This is IMO a pretty good write up by Ken. Google Earth is a good map to use—so is Google Maps, which is a bit different. You’ll be surprised how many places in the Rockies can be cobbled together to arrive at a plausible “general solve,” but as Forrest says, (paraphrasing) If you don’t have the first clue right, you’ve got nothing.” Getting the right WWWH is the way to the ultimately correct solve. I would advise, when you have that “Eureka!” Moment, to really critically pick apart each step of your solve to give it an acid test against confirmation bias before ever going BOTG. BOTG is a special level of commitment that is costly and is a bracing and eye opening reality check regarding navigating through the wild at elevation, while simultaneously realizing just how different reality turns out to be when compared with imagination and a map.

      • and when using Google earth, change the z scale to somewhere between 1.5 to 2 times… I don’t know what it is about the views, (probably the cone of vision), if you look at it and it looks like an easy hike, “you are holding it wrong”… comparing photos and videos to the same place on Google earth, it appears about 1.5 to 2 times out of scale.

        or maybe reality is 1.5 to 2 times out fo scale… not sure which…

    • Ken, I’d like to chime in here if I may. While I agree with what you said, esp about the search community making assumptions as a whole, I do want to mention something in case Ann, or someone else needs to hear it.

      Even though, it’s true that you only need the poem and a map. In my opinion and based on my solve, that’s a little like saying that you don’t ‘need’ tires on your car. Yes, in reality your car will move forward on the rims alone and you can get where your going that way, but it’s not good for your car and very hard to control and steer the car that way. So, you can solve it without the books or the internet or even the nine clues, but in my opinion it’s incredible hard to solve it this way. The books and hints within them have been invaluable to me.

      I highly suggest everyone get the books, read the scrapbooks, and use the internet. The internet – not just the maps and Satellite imagery – but the internet for information research about certain locations and history ext, has been extremely helpful in my solve. I mean EXTREMELY helpful.

      Just my thoughts.

    • Ken from Texas,

      Thank you for answering the questions I posed. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I want to thank JoJo for chiming in as well. I realize there are different sorts of searchers, such as poem purists, crypto/cypherers (not sure that is even a word!!!!), etc., etc. I do not wish to take any sides in that matter and I am open to all opinions and ideas. For me, understanding how someone is thinking is just as important as understanding what they are thinking. In an endeavor such as the Chase, I imagine both types of understanding would be helpful. I didn’t see any other replies regarding thoughts on which map ought to be used. Is or has there been a thread on the map itself? I ask because I am interested to know whether searchers feel there is a specific map that ought to be used or any map, or a particular type of map. And just to thwart off any ideas that I am attempting to ascertain which maps everyone else is using I will posit my thoughts first.

      I think the map next to poem that FF provided is the map best suited for the Chase. Why do I think this is the case as opposed to GE or some other map available on the world wide web or elsewhere? The simple answer is that this is the map FF gave us. If that is not satisfactory to some, I will delve a bit further.

      Is it possible for FF to have published the poem, thereby initiating the challenge that lay before us, without including a map? Perhaps. But in that case, why did FF provide a map? And of all the maps he could have provided, why this one?

      For those of you who are fans of The Goonies, I answer that last question with their example. Mikey finds a map. And on the back of this map is a poem with I forget how many clues in it (was it nine? I really have no idea but that would make this analogy even cooler!) Or did he find the poem with the map on the back? It doesn’t matter. The point is there was a map with the clues. And why do you suppose maps are typically used in treasure hunts? Well, if you were the one who hid the treasure, and you alone know where it is hidden, and you wanted to pass along that information under the guise of a poem or clues, wouldn’t you also need to leave behind something to which the poem or clues refers? After all, it’s not like those who come across the poem or clues were with you when the treasure was hid so they don’t know from memory what or where your mysterious notes refer to. The poem or clues could refer to any number of places! After all, the world is a rather large place!

      So what do you do? You leave a map behind with the poem or clues to give them an idea of where the treasure is hidden and where the poem or clues will take you. Now, do you pick just any old map? No! How could you? If you hide the treasure in the United States you can’t pick a map of Australia!!!! Searchers would go to Australia based solely on the map! And how would they know the poem/clues refer to somewhere other than Australia? SO clearly the map you pick has to include the location of the hidden treasure on it, Note I say on it and not within it. What’s the difference you ask?

      Well……Let’s say you hide the chest in the Rocky Mountains. Could you pick any old map of the Rocky Mountains to include with the poem/clues? Sure. I suppose you could. But then why not just grab any map with the Rocky Mountains on it and say it’s somewhere in there? I still suppose you could. But now let’s say our searchers produce a very different map that also contains the Rocky Mountains, and asks you if the treasure is somewhere in there (referring to the Rocky Mountains on their map). Could you truthfully answer yes? This is a trick question btw.

      The answer is no, and here is why. You hid the treasure in the Rocky Mountains n the United States. Their map is of the Rocky Mountains in Canada only. So while both maps show the Rocky Mountains, only one map contains the location where the treasure is hidden. So what about the rest of the poem/clues? Are they also to be found on the map you used or can the searchers use a map of the same area that does not necessarily contain the poem/clues on it? I would argue not.

      Now someone may protest, :Then Ann, why didn’t FF put an X on his map marking the spot, as treasure maps are known for as well?”
      To which I would reply, “How do you know he didn’t?”

      Now, is there an actual X on the map FF gave us pointing to where the chest is? Arguably not. But, does that mean he didn’t mark the spot on the map in some other fashion? I cannot say.

      All I am asking here is, is the map FF gave us the map we ought to be using? Why or why not? I have given some suggestions here as to why we maybe should be using that map, as opposed to GE or some other map of the Rockies, but I don’t know that that is the case. I welcome the thoughts of others on this topic as I think it may be just as important as the figuring out the poem itself.

      One additional thought concerning this discussion is this: Could I solve the Chase by reading the poem alone (or even just reading the poem and the book) and coming up with answers to the clues, without referring to a map? Why couldn’t I just answer the elusive riddle and all the clues by reading the poem and thinking of solutions? Do we usually need a map to solve other riddles? Or understand what other poems are talking about? Or is this case different than the usual riddle/clue situation? Do I indeed need a map to figure out where the chest is? And do I need a specific map to achieve this? One that has the location of the chest on it and not just included within it?

      And if I missed the thread or conversation on the map that answers all of these questions I apologize in advance. In my short time on the Chase, I have heard almost nothing about the map, or any map (other than the use of GE). I wish to note that GE has a lot on it that the map FF provided does not. So if we ought to be using the map FF provided, that would certainly clear up a ot of the speculation and conjecturing and narrow the field a bit.

      Additionally, I wish to thank Dal for providing the link to the map that used some deductive reasoning to narrow the search area down quite a bot. I have looked over that link and will repost it here:


      While I am not in complete agreement with the overall analysis, the approach to the problem is most appealing. Such a method is not without its benefits, assuming the method is applied to a “good” map in FFs opinion. I would also suggest applying such a map to whatever potential solves may be out there. It would be helpful to know if our ideas fit within some of the parameters that have been deduced or given over the years.

      Aside from that, I look forward to any and all responses!

      All IMO of course.


      • Hi Ann,

        “I think the map next to poem that FF provided is the map best suited for the Chase. Why do I think this is the case as opposed to GE or some other map available on the world wide web or elsewhere? The simple answer is that this is the map FF gave us.”

        That’s not the only map Forrest has “given us,” nor the first. The map in TFTW came out in 2013, so it was unavailable to the first three years of searchers. Didn’t seem to hurt those early searchers since some solved two clues without the benefit of the TFTW Benchmark map. Personally, I don’t think there is any way you can solve beyond two clues with the TFTW map — the scale is simply too great, and therefore I don’t think the details you need to solve the third clue can be found on it. Forrest has provided additional guidance on that point:

        MW Q&A (6/28/2014): “Is the map that needs to be used to discover where warm waters halt found online or in paper form? or both? ~mdc777”

        FF: “C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that. f”

        Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

        “Could I solve the Chase by reading the poem alone (or even just reading the poem and the book) and coming up with answers to the clues, without referring to a map?”

        If you have a “comprehensive knowledge” of U.S. Rocky Mountain geography, I would answer “Yes.” If not, then absolutely “No.”

        • Hello Zap,

          “Could I solve the Chase by reading the poem alone (or even just reading the poem and the book) and coming up with answers to the clues, without referring to a map?”

          If you have a “comprehensive knowledge” of U.S. Rocky Mountain geography, I would answer “Yes.” If not, then absolutely “No.”
          I went through the questions at the link you provided. Also, I did search on MW for what I presume you are indicating is Forrest’s answer…..there were no instances found??

          Can you provide a direct link to what you posted……thanks, loco

          • LOL!! OK, I see what you did….my bad!!

            But, it ain’t cool, what you did. There are newbies who will take that and run with it….and spread it everywhere as what Fenn “said”.

        • Hi Loco: that first quote is me quoting Ann’s question above. The only quote from Forrest is the agent 777 one.

          • You’re right, Loco: it would have been better if I had avoided confusion by prefacing Ann’s text with something like “Ann asked:” The ambiguity wasn’t deliberate or nefarious. 😉

        • Zap…interesting thought… the early searchers who solved the first two clues may have been using the first “map next to the poem” that Forrest provided in TTOTC. The old map of New Mexico. Funny.

          • Hi Sally: I was thinking earlier in TTOTC to the only instance I’m aware of that Forrest specifically named a map, and one that happens to be quite detailed. He did say that map “would really come in handy later on.” I don’t see how Forrest could have been any more obvious.

          • Ladies and Gentleman!!!!!

            Where was this conversation earlier!!!! When I asked whether anyone thought FF gave us a specific map to use or figured any map would do!!!! How has no one mentioned that there are two maps given by FF!!!!!

            So now I don’t know which one I have…….Are there links to both and if so can you please indicate which map each link is to and include the date of release. Again, I don’t have the books.

            So you’re telling me there is an original map and no one is talking about it!!!!! (Can you hear the sarcastic scolding shock there?) Geez Louise folks! (Apologies if anyone here is named Loise, or Pete) For Pete’s sake! Hasn’t anyone given serious thought to which map ought to be used!!!! (Again a bit of sarcastic bewilderment.) Surely (not Shirley) someone has examined the original map! Now I can’t wait to see it for myself! Thanks in advance for the links whoever posts them. And Zap, next time start with “Hey Ann, how about the original map?” 🙂

            I feel like we just dug up an old bone that could be vital to solving a crime but was left out in the yard to be buried by our dog! ( I say our dog to demonstrate the collective burial of such information and to ensure the term dog is not used to refer to any individual) You better pull that bone out of the backyard and let me have a look at it in the lab!

            All in fun and all IMO.


          • .
            Ann, I think they are talking about a section of an old map that appears in the book near page 132, which is where the poem is. The second map is probably the four state map on the poem poster that was released some years ago in limited form. I think there are copies of both of these floating around on the Internet.

          • Oh yes, Zap, *that* map. The 3rd map. The one he didn’t quite have commited to memory! Do you have a 1940s version of that? It’s quite rare.

          • Hi Sally: I don’t have a vintage version of that map, but I think my contemporary one has worked as well if not better. It’s a very large map covering a huge area.

          • astree,

            Thanks for the links. I have the second of those maps from TFTW. I would like a clearer one of TTOTC if there is one available. But at least now I know which one I am missing.

            Sally and Zap,

            I know you aren’t trying to give away details of the third map you are talking about in code but if it refers to an unpublished (for lack of a better term) map I have an idea of what you may be talking about. I would be interested in the vintage version or one earlier if you know where I may be able to find one. Thanks.


          • Hi Ann: wasn’t trying to be deliberately secretive or evasive — the named map is common knowledge for anyone with a copy of TTOTC. I guess I had forgotten that you don’t have the book. (Btw, if you’re really serious about solving the poem, buy that book. It’s not that expensive.)

            In the mean time, I can give you a link to an early version of the “Looking for Lewis & Clark” chapter of TTOTC. There are a number of differences between this version and the one that appeared 2 1/2 years later in the book — including the precise wording related to the map — but I think you’ll enjoy the story:

          • Zap,

            No worries. That was actually the map I thought you were talking about. and now that you have confirmed it, have you ever come across a copy of one FF would likely have used way back when? I know there is a 1930s version but I haven’t found any good copies yet. Also, I imagine FF was referring to his later use of it in the story, which oddly enough could be viewed as an allusion to it’s use now in helping find the blaze? Wouldn’t that be ironic! Had I not been privy to the story you mention I certainly would not have known about this map though. And yes, I realize having the book may be of some use. Then I would have known of the NM map as well! I am not convinced yet that any certain map would be more helpful than say GE. But then I must ask, do you suppose FF used a map when writing the poem? Whether you do or not, I would be interested to hear why. All IMO.


          • ” Oh, and we had a Forest Service map of the Gallatin National Forest.”

            Burn the way out or get warm…

          • Zaphod – Thanks for sharing that link! I don’t think I had ever read that version of the story, and I think I even prefer that telling to version that made it into the book.

          • Lisa,

            Thanks for reposting that link. I was not aware of your previous such post. These threads remind me a lot of my test studying days for math classes in college. (Yes this is a side note.) We would all get together with food and drinks and our notebooks and text books and go over the material as needed. Someone would ask a question they had and whoever could answer it chimed. It was an extremely productive process and I mostly just enjoyed the laid back socializing that came with it. (Admittedly I mostly ate and answered questions!)

            I mention this here because I would like to thank those of you who actually answer the questions I post. As someone fairly new to the scene I clearly don’t have all the notes everyone else has taken over the years, nor the textbooks in this c(h)ase! So I thank those of you willing to share.

            And lastly, I must point out that as I was writing this post I was eating some chewy chocolate chip cookies!

            All IMO.


            BTW: It is strange to include an IMO even in posts that don’t necessarily require it! A good habit to have I suppose on a forum such as this.

      • Ann, I believe this is one area that leaves me with few answers. However, I do believe this is because that’s the way Forrest intended for it to be. He has given the general area in size and scope but not in detail. If he were to give us a too detailed map than perhaps people would narrow it down to quickly. The poem as he states, along with the book, should help anyone narrow the search area down to a smaller area on the map. He has made many statements and what I try to do, is to make sure I confirm his words with his other statements. When he repeats himself consistently, I know he means what he says. IMO his statements have to confirm themselves, they must be congruent with TTOTC and of course the Poem. Once you study his writing patterns and what is important to Forrest you develope his profile. Forrest has an amazing Imagination and he is an excellent chess player. He talks in metaphor, poems and parables. He is as sly as a Fox. Good luck and thanks for the Question..

        • Ann, I find Google Maps and Google Earth to be more than I need but perhaps there is one map that Forrest is talking about that someone has found, good luck!

        • BEC,

          I don’t have the books and I only have the TFTW map. DO you know where I can find a good clear copy of the TTOTC map? I am trying to test a theory. Thanks.


          • Ann…Collected Works sells TTOTC…and the map is in TTOTC. Go online to order. Request an autographed and doodled copy. The map you want, and much of the information you seek, can be found in the book. It is your personal investment in the chase. My advice is to follow Forrest’s advice. Read the book. Good luck it’s a lot of fun.

      • The following is all just my opinion and according to my solve. I could be wrong.

        Ann, You need a detailed map so when you figure out where warm water halts you have more than a basic area. The one in the book ‘Too Far to Walk’ is useless. That’s my opinion of course. And according to my solve you need another map as well. You need the Treasure Map, which I have. Well, you don’t actualy NEED the Treasure Map. It can be solved without it, but good luck with that. How do you get the Treasure Map? You need the nine clues. Once you have the nine clues then if you do everything right, then you can figure that out. The poem is a map among other things. It takes you right to the spot. But it isn’t easy to figure it out. Even when you figure it out, most people still can’t figure out where the general area is. Which makes the Treasure Map useless. But there is a way according to my solve.

        I’m not sure if this helps or just adds confusion. At any rate good luck and get cracking, becasue I’m getting it myself as soon as the snow melts- in my opinion.

        • JoJo,

          Thanks for posting a reply. I’m just testing a theory. I understand what you are saying. Good luck with your search and I look forward to hearing all about it. I’m not actually going to be doing any searching. Just testing a theory about how it may be done correctly. Someone else will have to test the theory, if it’s even feasible. In the meantime, I can’t do much about it without the right map. All IMO.


          • Why not search yourself? Don’t give up! Get out there and give it a try. Trust me it’s worth it even if you don’t find the treasure. I went out last Summer and it was really awesome. I did not find it but I got to see some really great places and it was incredible. I don’t get out into nature very often and I was glad I did. Not only that, being there in person led me to information that I would not have otherwise found that added to my solve in ways and for reasons that I would not have anticipated had I not gone in person.

            According to my solve : As for the map, use Google maps and also the Satellite view on Google Maps. As for the poem being a map, just work on the clues, but if you can’t figure it out just work on Where Warm Water Halts. My best advice is to focus on the first five lines of the poem. That’s right. Don’t start at line five. Work on lines one through five at the same time. Do that until you figure out Where Warm water Halts. then go there in person. Even if you don’t have the rest. Bring the poem withyou. Once you are there look around and look at the poem and work on it one line at a time. It can be done this way. Esp the first stage of the solve. Give it a shot.

          • JoJo,

            Thank you for your encouraging words. Believe me, not having BOTG is not for lack of want. I have an affinity for nature having worked outdoors for a good amount of time. And, traveling for leisure in the great outdoors is something I very much look forward to doing. I have more pressing and personal rips I rally need to take first and then it becomes an issue of funding. So, in the meantime, I’ll see if I can’t help someone else figure it. After all, once it’s solved then everyone will know just where to go to find this elusive spot!

            Also, thank you for your thoughts on the first five lines. I just spoke with someone about this very notion! I feel when it comes to finding WWWH on a map to start the Chase, everyone just leaps to line 5. I also, think I posted elsewhere an expose (accented e) on deciding where to find WWWH on a map. Reliance on the four words themselves seems happenstance at best, and renders stanza one seemingly superfluous. Some have suggested it’s just an introduction but there is at least one word in it that suggests otherwise. So, I like what you have said. And I am still looking forward to hearing all about your own adventures. All IMO.


          • Hi Ann: regarding “After all, once it’s solved then everyone will know just where to go to find this elusive spot!” — I wouldn’t count on that. There are many competing factors that may tilt in favor of maintaining the spot’s secrecy.

          • Zap,

            I suppose we won’t know that until someone DOES spill the beans. I imagine it would be awfully selfish for the first person who figures it ot to keep it to themselves. Certainly the world ought to know the chest has been found, and I grant that can be done without revealing the actual location. But I think only revealing the location would prevent further unnecessary searching and the potential for further death of haphazard searchers in the name of the Chase. I don’t think whoever finds the chest could justify keeping it a secret for FF’s sake. I think FF would want to place the safety of others first above any privacy, otherwise why invite the world to this location in the first place? To do otherwise would not only be cruel, but also careless and in opposition to the spirit with which FF set this whole thing in motion. Revealing the location, would diminish the goal of getting families out into the Rockies. On the contrary, it would like invite many more out to at least explore the area FF has found to be so fond. And to those who would counter that no one after the first would ever really know they had found the right spot since the chest would no longer be there, I would make the following retort: It would be akin to Langdon in The Da Vinci Code, finding the resting place of Mary Magdalene at the end of the movie. The chest would no longer be a factor even for those who came after. And eventually, the contents of the chest and the chest itself would appear somewhere, whether by the original finder or someone a generation or two down the road. The finder can no more protect the fate of the chest or its hiding spot than FF can. All IMO.


          • Self Correction:

            “Would not diminish”

            There are other flaws too but that was a big one.

          • Hi Ann: “I imagine it would be awfully selfish for the first person who figures it out to keep it to themselves. Certainly the world ought to know the chest has been found, and I grant that can be done without revealing the actual location.”

            Yes, and frankly that’s all the searcher community is ~entitled~ to know.

            “But I think only revealing the location would prevent further unnecessary searching and the potential for further death of haphazard searchers in the name of the Chase.”

            Unfortunately, revealing the location would do neither. Just read up on what happened with Masquerade — even when the full solution was revealed, people continued to pursue their own ideas, convinced that a grander solution awaited discovery.

            “I don’t think whoever finds the chest could justify keeping it a secret for FF’s sake.”

            I don’t think Forrest cares either way — as he said, it’s out of his hands. The eventual finder has other considerations, not least is factoring in the potential actions of the many certifiably crazy people in the Chase.

            Irrespective of potential physical threats and/or legal actions some of the 7%’ers might take, the finder will own the intellectual property of his/her solution, which itself has some intrinsic (though diminishing) value. Many searchers have said they’ll write a book or do the news or talk-show circuit. Once the answer is first made public, the monetization ship has largely sailed.

          • Yeah you could just say treasure found near xxxxx by state xyz09er,
            I’m still more interested in hearing it and others hearing it. I think itd light up alot of kids minds both young and old, treasure sought and treasure found. Nei Sayers will Alwyn be resenting I figure

          • Ann – I’m of the same opinion as you. I really hope whoever finds the treasure at least eventually shares the solution with the rest of the world one way or another. There’s no obligation for anyone to do so, but in my opinion it just seems like the right thing to do.

            I believe that the main driving factor against revealing the solution is that people would be afraid of having the treasure taken away from them through some sort of legal action depending on where it is found. However, who’s to say what was actually in the chest once it was found? Anyways, that’s getting into “legal ponderings” now, so I better stop talking about it on this thread! 😉

          • zaphod73491,
            I agree 100% with your arguments.

            The only thing the finder owes to the search community is to reveal, with reasonable delay, the treasure has been found.

            With the monetary award gone, unless Mr. Fenn releases the spot/solution, there is a high probability that the solution won’t be found ever. IMO, the solution should remain a mystery forever for those that cannot solve the poem themselves.

          • Thanks Rich: I for one do NOT want to know the solution if someone solves it before I do. I would want the challenge of figuring it out on my own — especially knowing that it WAS solvable.

            And if *I* solve it first, I would at least factor into my decision that there are many others like me who have many years invested and wouldn’t want the answer just blurted out.

          • Zap,

            “Unfortunately, revealing the location would do neither.”

            Actually it would. Anyone who says they are searching for a found chest after it has been found cannot put anything that they may do on the Chase itself. Once the Chase is essentially “concluded” it has no place in the meanderings of further crazies.

            “Many searchers have said they’ll write a book or do the news or talk-show circuit. Once the answer is first made public, the monetization ship has largely sailed.”

            You have described precisely why the location won’t remain a secret., which was the entire basis of my post. (That it wont remain a secret, or that if could remain secret.) Technically, it’s already not a secret. FF has managed to tell everyone exactly where the chest is. Yep, semantics.

            Believe what you will. I am not going to debate the fate of the location. We will find out when we find out if we ever find out. The life of the chest will surpass that of anyone who may find it. I haven’t heard anything about it’s maker and he/she is the one who made looking for this particular chest even possible. Else we would be looking for a very different chest!

            Your entitlement is awfully presumptuous. You are only ever guaranteed two things in life: 1) change and 2) death. (And don’t even try to throw in taxes like I imagine you want to.) One of the beauties of logic is that it is self explanatory (self evident) and doesn’t need an interpreter. Makes you wonder what conversations were like before its advent. All IMO.


          • Zap,

            In reply to another post you put up here about not wanting to know the correct solve………

            The novelty of trying to figure out the Chase on your own will eventually fade once the location is revealed. If not for you then perhaps when you are gone. In time, people won’t care how it’s done anymore, just that it as done (and maybe who figured it out but even that is likely to fade over time).

            No one cares who first proved 2+2=4 (And I realize there are mathematical manipulations to demonstrate otherwise. That is not the point here.) And no one is really interested these days in trying to prove it themselves, though it is required at some point to do so by students of math. Some people don’t even care to know how to use the information! But everyone is okay with it having already been done so that they can enjoy the benefits.

            I sympathize with your plight. You are not unlike that college classmate of mine who wanted to figure out Euclid’s proof of the Pythagorean Theorem all on his own. He never did come up with his own solution and I doubt he is concerned about it today. Unlike math, which may sometimes be improved upon, finding the chest is a one time deal. There won’t be a better way of doing it once it is found.

            And another factor of the novelty wearing off is of course the next big adventure, which will capture the attention of others more than an already solved treasure hunt. No one is trying to find the Titanic in a new or different way. or all on their own.

            All IMO. No need to reply to this one. It is not that important nor is it relevant to finding the chest.


          • Hi Ann: regarding the actions of searchers after the chest is found, I simply predicted that if the full solution was revealed, human nature would nevertheless prevent some searchers from accepting it. This is why I wrote that revealing the location would not prevent “further unnecessary searching” nor the “potential for further death” of searchers. It would be nice if that were the case, but it simply isn’t.

            Regarding the finder going public to grab their 15 minutes of fame and maybe make an extra buck or two, some searchers value privacy over fleeting fame (and the negatives that will go with it). Sure, the finder may crave that moment in the public spotlight; I’m just suggesting that not everyone cares about that.

            “Your entitlement is awfully presumptuous.”

            *My* entitlement? I’m not asking anything of the finder other than letting Forrest know it’s been found. I’d ~prefer~ he or she didn’t share the solution, but I certainly won’t blame them if they do.

          • Zaphod & Ann – I like both of the arguments that you are putting forward on this topic. To me, this underscores the good advice from Forrest: “If you find the treasure, please keep it in a vault for 30 days while you think.”

            Whoever finds the treasure will find themselves in a very unique and unprecedented situation, and will be required to kind of figure things out as they go along. In these discussions, we keep circling back to three major decisions that the finder will need to make:

            1.) Do I let the public know that the treasure has been found?
            2.) Do I reveal the location where the treasure was hidden?
            3.) Do I reveal my identity and go public with my story?

            I think most of us all agree that the answer to number one is “YES, OF COURSE!” and for good reason. Would finding the treasure be enough to comfort you if someone else died in an accident while searching for the chest after you had already found it? That prospect sounds awful to me. On top of that, are the people who are simply scraping together their money and free time to go on a treasure-searching trip. I think most of us are in agreement that the finder announcing that the treasure has been found is the bare minimum of decency.

            Regarding the second, this is where disagreement starts. I’ve already said that I would share the location, because if I were not the finder I would sincerely want to know the solution to bring it to conclusion and give some closure to the story. It’s a “golden rule” type of thing for me. I can understand why some may want to keep at the puzzle and try to figure out for themselves as another means of arriving at closure, but if the true solution is revealed to the public, one can easily stick their fingers in their ears yelling “LA-LA-LA! No spoilers!” to keep that knowledge secret for themselves, with the certainty that if they ever give up, the solution is there for their confirmation.

            The third item is the one that I still don’t have a good answer for and would take some serious thought. If the finder reveals their identity, then maybe they can get even more money with book and movie deals and the like. Then again, revealing one’s identity would make them a target for the crazy people who think that the finder should have been them, and maybe it’s still their destiny to break into the finder’s home in search of the treasure and who knows what else. Then again, would the finder even be able to hide the fact that they found the treasure from their close friends and family? Would even sharing the secret with one other person be enough to have the beans be spilled? Would the finder be forced to live their life as before simply as a deterrent to being identified as the finder? Is that third question even a decision for the finder to make, or is it out of their hands at that point?

            It’s interesting stuff to mull over. Fortunately, only one person will have to truly struggle over these questions in earnest (unless the chest has already been found and the finder decided to answer “no” to all 3 of the above questions).

          • Hi Blex: good summary of the issues that will confront the finder (or have!) I think we’re all counting on Forrest’s confidence that he’ll know when it’s found, one way or another.

        • Zap – Maybe the solve could be posted here on HOD with a “spoiler alert” so that only people who wanted to know would read it and post about it there. And yes I realize that this is not fool proof, but I would hope the searcher community would be courteous and respect the wishes of others who do not want to know. Just a thought.

          • Hi Geysergirl: if the finder tells anyone, I think it’ll only be a matter of hours before the media knows. And then it will be impossible to avoid learning the location (without moving to Tahiti or Timbuktu) — similar to trying to avoid learning the fate of various Star Wars or Game of Thrones characters. Sure, you can avoid all the blogs and delete incoming (targeted) Google News alerts on your phone. But hard to avoid TV or radio news or a friend (who knows you’re a searcher) texting, emailing, or telling you.

            It’s not that big a deal to me either way, thought that’s partly because I think there’s a decent chance I’ll be the one faced with the decision about whether to make the solution public, lol. 😉 But if not, I have plenty of other unsolved mysteries to work on, and other treasure hunts will surely come along.

          • I think Forrest ,(since he knows all((is he santa secretly)) should be the one to announce it. In my opinion it brings one to an end, but leaves a beginning, and also sets a precident for the future. I don’t suspect that this will be the last great treasure hunt, actually that this is one really good beginning. It’s done alot and shown a viable method for a number of things and activities that are good for people and nature in general.

          • You make all valid points I wasn’t thinking of. And I really hope that someone in this search community here on HOD is the one who has all those tough decisions to make, so might as well be you if it’s not me!

            You know my husband is not a searcher, he just follows my trail. He always asks “How certain are you on this solve?” I just smile and say, “Just trust me on this.” I’m not sure how many times I’m going to be able to get away with that. 😉

          • GG-
            Forrest stated years ago that if the chest is found in his lifetime he will announce it on the blogs because he doesn’t’t want folks spending money to look after it has been removed.

          • Thanks Dal. That’s a good start, but I think the bigger question is whether or not the finder will offer the solve and whether or not it should be. Your thoughts?

          • GG-
            If I were the finder there is no doubt that I would want Forrest to announce that it has been found to stop folks from spending money looking for it. I’ll make the rest of the decisions when I find it and not likely before…

          • GuyserGirl;

            It is my opinion that Forrest should be the “Decider.” He has said that once found, he washes his hands of it, or words like that – BUT – It is his puzzle, his chest, and his goodies. Sure, a “finder” will have found it, and Forrest says in the poem that “I give you title to the gold.” BUT, If I am so lucky as to be the “finder” – I will let Forrest be the “decider” as to whether or not he wants the location, and the method of the solve made public. But that is just me – JDA

          • I like that thought too JDA. Guess it will be part of the conclusion to the TOTC when/if we ever see it sometime soon. 🙂

          • GG,

            Fenn once asked; if you could have dinner with anyone, alive or dead, who would it be and why…
            I’d ask Mrs. Fenn to dinner and tell her the chest has Been recovered… And leave it to her should she tell Forrest.

            In theory…

          • This has become quite the topic!

            Great break down Blex. I don’t have much else to add here. It seems as though most would like the chest to found in FF’s lifetime. That is a wonderful sentiment and I think it would be nice for FF as well. If and when the chest is found I am sure the world will hear about it, and at some point in time the full story will unfold (whether immediately or long after the finder has passed away and barring any freak circumstances)

            As for fear of the crazies: whoever finds the chest will have plenty of money to put it all in a safe place. No one has been crazy enough to go to unimaginable extremes to ascertain the chests location so far (and I am not encouraging anyone do so).

            It is interesting that publicity is seen as a danger for the finder. Publicity could also be a protector. If the world knows who found the chest, then no one else should come into possession of it’s contents unless through proper channels. I don’t imagine FF has felt he has been in any danger considering he is the sole knower of the chests location. Seems like he would have more to lose now than the finder may later.

            Time will tell. All IMO.


  4. Ken, from Tejas, it is so clear when we look at this: “You asked: “are you marrying the poem to the map you are using based solely on geographic knowledge of the Rockies?” Marriage?

    In July of 2018 CharlieM wrote: “The Poem Married to a Map…Part One” Charlie mentions the Pastor swept away in a torrent by the Rio Grande River near Pilar, NM. Do Pastors perform Marriage Ceremonies? Where is that CEREMONY held… Normally in a Church.

    Why would Forrest tell us to try and “MARRY” the poem to a map in the Rockies? … “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map. It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.f” Simplify is like a beacon of light coming from a church steeple, nest to a bell that rings a note, or should that the Warm Waters Halt is ff’s church in the mountains… IMO why would he be such a clever user of metaphors and not have a message meaning something much deeper, spiritual… everlasting message of love?

    He candidly drops these little “Canasta” hints and Hyw 825 backward to read HYW 285 if we are getting smarter IMHO. See SC Book 223 “I flew a few miles west to highway 285 and let almost all the way down. We were pulling up to clear telephone poles and a few small towns. f”

    Q) Mr. Fenn, I am not even close to solving your riddle. I’ve tried for months and nothing works. I am not asking for a clue to the treasure, I’m asking for a clue to the clues. Please help me. ~Mary

    “A) Dear Mz. Mary, The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are. Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.

    Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily. The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f”

    In Winter Thought II which is under construction, like a good architect, I am attemting to marry my WWWH to a Wild Idea that must be simple yet sublime, not a structure any where but a location of a place where all of the clues touch your soul in an unusual place…new at 10, 2 and 4, thank you Dr Pepper. and a little translation from Scrapbooks 169 thur 247.


    • In SC book 169 Forrest describes a BINGO! In a Church, while raining er sprinkling, It is odd that he wrote that SC Book in March 2017, that was 4 days after my “Winter Thoughts”. Page 9 of Important Literature has a gloomy weather forcast, but to Mr Terrific, I see sunshine most of the day now…

      In Tijeras, it was ONE DEGREE last night and my solve was 1 degree off too, It is his old home in Temple, Tx, that blazed in twice to reveal the real WWWH. If you apply the backward bike principle, what took me so long?


    • Hi Tom,
      I think that real searchers always like to compare hypothesises of other searchers with their ones So, your Winter Thought II are definitely welcomed. 2020 search season will be hot in terms of searcher’s eager to make final and successful BOTG. It looks like that even Forrest wants TC to be found this year (IMO based on numerous recently release hints). Well, let’s do it 🙂

      • Andy, I think 2020 is gonna be a good year for someone, it is only a matter of Sunshine…


        • Oh yes, and Camouflage Simplified, It is a neat little book from Eric, but probably not necessary, sorta like the metal detector comment, it is cleverly disguised, otherwise I would have it already.


      • from Andy: “It looks like that even Forrest wants TC to be found this year (IMO based on numerous recently release hints)”

        here is a quote from “Mark” on April 26, 2014 here on Dal’s blog: “It is starting to sound like Mr. Fenn is wanting the treasure to be found this year. He is being very active with the hints.”

        it is truly amazing how searchers repeatedly reiterate the themes of themselves, only the names of the searchers change, the quotes, seriously, couldn’t get any closer to word for word every single year…

        it is a study in human nature/psychology that someone could do their thesis on.

        • Wash, rinse, repeat… but like ff said regarding those who claim had found the chest year after year, “it is who we are as people”.

        • I’d agree,… I’ve read journal of phycology a few times a.i don’t think many do read the studies b. Pretty sure you can print anything and call it a study c. Treasure hunters would probably be pretty neat and informative except for tc location.

        • Hi Writis,
          It’s human nature – to start BOTG each searcher should believe that he/she solved enough clues to reach at least the hoB. Personally I will never start BOTG if I don’t have the hoB. One my solve was in Colorado and “solving the hoB” even leaded me to very nice blaze. I will not publish this solution because I’m not 100% sure that I correctly “look down” when I stay near “the blaze”. Maybe I will go there again.
          About hints in recent SBs and interviews: each searcher decides individually which facts could be qualified as “hints”. Some SBs contain very good clues for me but for other searchers they are just funny (or not funny) stories from Forrest life. Real searcher never even say which SBs are especially valuable for him/her.
          Even Forrest citation of T. S. Eliot can contain some hint(s) for searchers:
          “We shall not cease from our exploration
          And at the end of all our exploring
          Will be to arrive where we started
          And know the place for the first time”

          • Andy, you won’t know whether you have the CORRECT
            home of Brown until you find the TC. But going with
            confidence is a pretty good thing. Enjoy the solving and
            searching. As always, IMO.

          • Not quite true Tall Andrew. In order to find the chest you need to identify HOB. Once that is accomplished, you can go straight to the location of the chest.

            Free Thinker!

  5. Ken from Texas writes: Stay away from extraneous resources like TTOTC, scrapbooks, and so on.

    Forrest Quotes:

    “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f.

    “When the treasure is found, it will be found by somebody who read my book, then read the poem over and over and over again and then read my book again looking at every word and every sentence for a hint that will help them with the clues that are in the poem that they’ve memorized.” From Fernanda interview

    What I recommend is that you read my book normally, then you read the poem over and over and over again, and just think about every line, read it 4 or 5 or 10 times, and then go back and read the book again, slowly, looking for hints in the book that will help you with clues in the poem. Transcript of Todd Lavato Santa Fe.com interview 4/23/2013

    “I have some advice. Read the book, then read the poem, over and over, maybe even memorize it. And then go back and read the book again looking for hints that are in the book that are going to help you with the clues that are in the poem. That’s the best advice that I can give. You have to find out, to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.”

    “There are nine clues in the poem, but if you read the book (TTOTC), there are a couple…there are a couple of good hints and there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.” Moby Dickens Book Shop 34:41 mark

    I suggest taking all of Forrests Quotes into context, not just relying on hard headed searchers who insist their way is the only way. If you’re going to quote Forrest at least be consistent. Forrest has said alot of things, everyone should have a right to do it their way. I suggest reading all his Quotes, IMO as always.

    • BEC … you think I’m not aware of all of Forrest’s comments, including those that refer to hints in the book?

      I see you do not trust Forrest when he says that all of the information needed to find the treasure is in the poem. Too bad.

      Best of luck with your attempt to find a COUPLE of good hints in TTOTC. Searchers have been parsing that book for years. They come up with all sorts of “hints” in those 147 pages, from postmarks, to words, to sketches, to numbers, to omegas, to locations, to photos, to names, and on and on.

      How will you ever know which “couple” of hints are really the ones Forrest refers to?

      Or are you just fishing for “hints” that seem to validate your current solution? It’s called confirmation bias.

      Are you sure that conventional searchers like yourself are not the ones who are being “hard headed … who insist their way is the only way”?

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • Ken: there are more than “a couple” hints in TTOTC. You can’t “sprinkle” two hints.

      • Ken,

        Your statement: “I see you do not trust Forrest when he says that all of the information needed to find the treasure is in the poem. Too bad.”

        I have considered all of Forrests quotes when researching. Why should I handicap myself by ignoring potential hints in the book. Apparently that is an obstacle for you but not for me… Please don’t suggest that I or anyone else is incapable of deciphering information from TTOTC. That’s great that you are capable of finding the treasure with just the poem. Good for you!

        You base your argument on one quote? Unfortunately you left out that he said, the book will also help.
        Here is the quote:
        OH radio interview Torg and Elliott:

        Q. Does somebody need to read your book to find the treasure or do all the clues exists within the poem?

        A. They don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.

        Then he goes on in many other quotes that I listed above stating the importance of reading TTOTC. Perhaps you don’t Trust Forrest? If the book is a stumbling block for you than keep it to yourself. Encouraging others to Not buy his Book and Don’t read his book is a big disservice to others searchers.

        Forrest never said, Don’t Read my Book, only Ken from Texas has..
        My argument is read TTOTC you have nothing to lose, Plus it’s a Great Read!! As always In My Opinion.

        • Hi, librarylady here. Bear with me y’all, this comment is going to be long but I hope helpful to some who are uncertain whether or not to read Forrest Fenn’s books for help in searching for his treasure. BEC, Seeker, and Zaphod, I agree with you that it is a mistake to consider TTOTC as an “extraneous source” apart from the poem, that should not be considered when trying to solve the poem and find the treasure. And I too feel that is does a big disservice to other searchers by telling them, as Ken has, not to read the book. IMO I don’t understand how you can just pick one quote by Forrest (and eliminate in your mind the part that refers to the fact that the book will help) and completely ignore all the other quotes where Forrest clearly states that there are hints in the book –many are listed here: http://www.chasingfennstreasure.com/fenn-quotes-page-3

          It seems odd to me that I never see anyone mention that the very first place the poem was published, and in the beginning the only place any searcher could find it, was In The Book!! (TTOTC). We are all so used to seeing the poem available everywhere all over the internet, but if Ken or any of us had wanted to depend only on the poem right after it was first published, we’d have had no choice but to buy the book. Forrest had no idea in the beginning that the treasure story and poem would go viral, he only expected people to learn about it through the book and didn’t even do a large printing–only about 1,000 copies. He has said so in interviews for articles such as this one: https://stories.californiasunday.com/2015-07-05/the-everlasting-forrest-fenn/ So if he only published the poem in the book and expected only the readers of the book to ever see it, and he has always freely admitted there are hints in the book –why would he be advising searchers in any quote that they don’t need to read the book?
          IMO, I don’t believe he meant that at all. I think he did mean that you can find the treasure if you can decipher the clues in the poem, and we know he has said that if you know the exact places that are meant by the clues, they form a map to the treasure and you should follow them consecutively (my wording not his, you can find his exact words here: http://mysteriouswritings.com/advice-from-forrest-fenn-on-how-to-find-his-treasure-chest-and-solve-his-poem-top-twenty-quotes/) But quotes on this same page also show he knows how hard that is to figure out from just the poem. You have to find the answer to the first clue–WWWH. He says that is vital. Since there are many places in the Rockies that can fit many definitions that might be WWWH, I think finding and starting with the right WWWH, using ONLY the poem, will take either incredible luck, ESP, or some kind of expert genius reverse-engineering from some of the other clues which are also really hard to figure out. Ken , you have every right to use only the poem and do it the really hard way, if you feel it’s best for you. Best of luck in your endevors! vBut I hate to see you advise the others to do it the really hard way, when FF’s books, especially TTOTC, might, and IMO can, make finding a good solve easier.

          After reading the poem over many times and reading TTOTC over numerous times, just as FF suggests, IMO his suggestion to do so is important. For one thing, most who don’t read the book probably don’t know that the poem is located near the end of the book. FF clearly intended the reader to read almost all of the book first before reading the poem. So the first part of the book must be important. IMO it’s important in several ways. It gives you major parts of Forrest’s childhood and you learn about people and places that were and are important to him. It gives you the story of his service as a fighter pilot in Vietnam, and incidents that happened there tha thad a powerful and lasting effect on him. It tells you of his life after Vietnam and what he has learned. All of that IMO is very important in understanding not only why he hid the treasure but where he hid it and why he chose that spot. And yes, there are definitely hints in there. Some are pretty obvious if you know what to look for, some less so(FF uses the word “aberrations” to describe them–his definition of aberration is ‘something that stands out’ so look for sentences or whole chapters that seem odd compared to the rest of the flow of the book. Eventually after several readings and learning from what other searchers feel to be hints, I also learned to speak “Fennish” (oops I just realized BEC said this line later in this thread, below where my comment will appear, but thanks BEC it’s a great description!).
          And I also agree with what BEC says below that the chapter Important Literature is titled that way on purpose (BEC I really worry that you and I may be searching in the same area, lol). There is also another important clue near the end of TTOTC.
          In any case, I believe that FF means for these clues to be used this way: As he said, read the book once, including the poem, then read the poem over and over. And then read the book again, maybe more than once, looking for clues that might help you with a location for your search area. Get some help from this website and others such as the ones Dal recommends, to see what others are thinking. The important part is that when you have determined on a search area, and a possible WWWH, test it to see if a) if the answers to the next few clues seem to fall into place easily–or do you have to really push or stretch your location to make it fit? If it passes that test, then b) look for more hints in TTOTC that might fit your location–especially your WWWH, but also places or descriptions in the area where your other clues fit the poem as well.
          Unfortunately we are all going to be prone to confirmation bias– a tendency to see everything in the book as a hint that fits our solve–so I have a pretty rigorous test that I used: 1) Did the places in my solve fit the clues in the poem, again withour my having to stretch them or ignore some part of the clue? 2)Once I felt certain of WWWH, did it lead me to the location of the next clue, and did that one lead me to the next, and so on? 3) in each case was the meaning of the next clue obvious once I figured it out? If I suddenly ended up with major uncertainty (such as too many creeks that you can’t paddle up, or too many place names that might fit the word blaze, or whatever) I assumed that I had led myself down a rabbit hole and backed up to where I felt certain again, assuming it was after that point that I made a mistake, and tried another solution. (At this point I am just an armchair researcher so I am referring to moving to another location on a map or Google Earth, not actually by going BOTG) 4) When I finally felt I had all my locations correctly figured out, did it serve as a map to lead me to a “Eareka!” moment and a great location for the hidden treasure?
          When my solve passed (only IMO of course) that part of the test, I went on to two more rigorous tests which I am still woking on: Rigorous test #1) Does my solve, when compared to all the FF quotes (from reliable sources) that I can find about the location, seem to hold up? Is it not in a man-made structure? Check. At the right altitude? Check. And so on. Still working on that–and also on rigorous test #2 which is reading through FF’s other two memoirs, TFTW and OUAW, and finding hints and making sure my solve fits those as well. Only when I’ve proved that to my satisfaction will I ask my search partners to go BOTG and risk bears and other possible hazards to actually look for the treasure (I’m disabled and can’t go along).
          In any case, I highly recommend reading ALL 3 BOOKS (Fenn’s memoirs), because not only will you get to know FF through his books a lot better, and understand a lot more about why the location where IMO he hid the treasure is important, but more about the reason why he hid it which is important as well. In addition, it seems like Forrest has put more hints in his other two books than in TTOTC, and don’t forget to read his scrapbooks as well, there really are hints there too. I agree with those who say it seems like Forrest has really increased the hints in the last few years. IMO maybe he does want this treasure found while he is still alive so his family won’t have the burden of dealing with it in the future.
          Sorry this was so long, but I hope it helps somebody out there! Can’t wait for summer–at least if this endless winter where I am in the Rockies–ever ends!

        • librarylady: just pushing a “like!” button for your post. Excellent reasoning for why the books and ATFs are important — the latter particularly as a litmus test for sniffing out faulty solutions.

      • How will you ever know which “couple” of hints are really the ones Forrest refers to?

        Because possibly there is an element to the hints that is non-subjective which isn’t the case for the string of clues.

      • Ken{TX} ~ stated to BEC ~ *I see you do not trust Forrest when he says that all of the information needed to find the treasure is in the poem. Too bad.*

        …To “Find The Treasure”…

        Nothing in fenn’s comment says the clues references can be answered in the poem. The poem is a map to the treasure, is it not?

        Hello Forrest,

        Q~ If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?
        Thank you ~Nope

        A~ Thank you Nope. Nope. f


        Without information from the book we don’t have knowledge of:
        Knowing of 9 clues
        Knowing of in the mountains N. of SF.
        Or.. Knowing of helpful info fenn claims is within the text of TTOTC book.
        IF all the information was within the poem, then the answer to the above Q&A would have had to have been, Yes. But it’s not.

        Now.. just for fun.. I wonder what the answer might have been if the Intro line, from the book for the poem, was added; “So I wrote a poem containing 9 clues that is followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

        Seems to me there are some hints here.
        ~9 clues
        ~N. of SF.
        ~Followed as shown, exactly, “precisely”
        ~My Rainbow
        What backstory would be missing? Cancer? A chapter from the book?…

        • The one thing that helped me the most was putting the chapters in TTOTC in order by date. Important Literature gives you your starting point and I’m not talking WWWH. There is another starting point IMO. Once you find the first starting point you then look for WWWH. From there it get easier. There are so many hints in the book if you know what your looking for.. you have to learn how to read fennish. IMO. Best of luck.

          • and even if one does not know what they are looking for, there are tons of ‘hints’ in TTOTC. along with so many ‘hints’ in every book ff has ever mentioned, let alone written… when all is said and done (a treasure chest is found). one could take any sentence from any stanza of any book, and create a believable hint out of it.

            That is the real problem with searching for ‘hints’ in TTOTC or any AFT comment much less anything else, way too much choice in the matter.

            it only servers to confirm a bias of any choosing one wants to chose. The only reliable ‘hints’ that can actually be focused on are the ones in the poem, as there are far fewer choices to create one’s bias from, at least one has a fighting chance that way.

            and heck with books, someone could point to any geographical feature on a map, and there will be a convincing hint constructed from it.

            simplify… acid test.. simplify… more acid poured on… then reconstruct even more.

            if this were a some sort of team project, atleast half of the team members could blow extremely large holes in the other half’s theory in about 20 seconds, saving lots of time and bias.. unfortunately this task sort of eliminates that sort of option.

          • Ha fennish. That will make home life alot easier.
            Wife. Are you on phone decoding the internet
            Husband. no dear, practicing my fennish for fennborie.
            Wife. Your such an awesome treasure hunter.
            Husband. I’m alone in here, can I get some coffee in the canyon.

        • The backstory needed is that the poem has clues to a treasure location in the mountains north of SF, that’s it, otherwise who will care about another cryptic poem 500 years from now?

        • “IF all the information was within the poem, then the answer to the above Q&A (the Nope, Nope q&a) would have had to have been, Yes. But it’s not.”
          I don’t agree with this. F could easily consider there to be some backstory that resides in the poem.

        • I don’t see any support for your idea that “My Rainbow” is a hint.

          Would you please provide some? Thanks in advance. All IMO.

          • Tall Andrew,
            The entire sentence, or intro, is a hint of itself.
            It tells of an age he moved on his idea.
            It tells of a poem.
            It tells of 9 clues needing to be understood.
            It tells all those clues must be followed as instructed.
            It tells of his (my) rainbow, even before the mentioning of the treasure.

            Dismiss what ya like, but we’re told to look for subtle hints and aberrations that sit out on the edge.

            It’s not rocket science to see that the poem is meant and stated… Lead to my rainbow.

    • After the fact. Additional (in theory) hints or clues divulged by Forrest after writing the poem and the TOTC.
      At least that’s my interpretation of it.

  6. I’m still (after a few years of trying) working on figuring out why FF keeps repeating the idea of “marrying the poem to a map”. If a key part of that phrase is “marry”, how are we to take it?

    I have tried to associate various words with the “marry” concept. Sometimes I envision a
    wedding ceremony involving rings, but don’t see any big clue there. Maybe just a small hint
    that isn’t much help. Hmm . . . what else do we see at a wedding? Flowers, nice looking
    people, a church . . . nothing that to me really stands out. A vow, maybe? (This reminds me of the vow/promise that FF made while flying over the little waterfall in Asia during his wartime service. But I don’t see any big clue there either.)

    One small possibility I have considered is that “marry” is associated with “love”, which is,
    of course, a word used in tennis “scoring” (ermagerd — did I actually say that?). There are also hundreds or thousands of songs about love. To me this seems like a rabbit hole, almost without boundaries or limits.

    Speaking more broadly — and ironically, I’ve been saying more about “wedding” than about
    “marriage”, which (of course) can get to be pretty “rocky” — , traditional society has tried, for
    thousands of years, to assign to marriage the concept of being something that benefits
    society as a whole. And I have no quarrel with that, at least pragmatically and generally speaking.

    I think FF, by repeating so many times his advice to “try to marry the poem to a map” may be
    referring searchers to the graphic representation in his book(s) that show a map of the four
    states in play.

    That’s about all I have to say about any of this right now. Good luck, everyone.

    As always, in my oPInon.

    • Tall Andrew: I think it’s simpler than that. I think Forrest is just marry to mean “match” or “join.”

      • Get down on one knee and propose; to this map, I thee wed. The blaze is a golden ring, like on the carrousel at the end of Catcher in the Rye. You find the ring after you take out your sharpie and connect all your dots, the places where you married a clue to the map, and now you are back to where you started. Kidding!!

      • Marrying means making two as one. .. I don’t look for this treasure because I’m on 4 already but I want to follow and I hope someone finds it one day. ..

      • Dear Lisa Cesari,
        Thank you for your post of “where warm waters halt” ,and this in turn led to me ordering the book “Waters of Yellowstone with Rod and Fly”.
        This will be a great “winter” read.

    • Maybe ff was letting us know that the clues to the poem will not be a solid match but more like an imperfect union. Two different things that share something and/or could be coupled by association.

    • TallAndrew,

      Regardless of ring and things, joining, coupled, etc… I think it’s more important to ask; how they become?
      Contiguous I think is the key here… All the clues should work together.
      The same can be said for how ingredients are used to create something.
      Married to, contiguous, all the ingredients… All seem to imply a type of synergy.; The sum is greater than all its parts.

      • That makes sense. I see it as involving our biological human/animal nature.

        Regarding synergy, Maybe what we have here is kinda like a person with a hula hoop. Just standing there, holding it, won’t impress anyone. And the hoop, by itself, just sitting there, also won’t. But a person twirling the hoop around him/her self is kinda cool.

        I don’t need to go into a long discussion about “family” at this time.

        As always, all IMO.

    • TA-
      I agree with Zap. Kathy is always telling me that the soup or chili will be better the next day after the ingredients marry over night….
      Meld the poem with a map..
      Look at the clues in the poem and apply them to a good map…
      Combine the two…

      I think it’s very obvious what he is suggesting…
      Don’t use the map and the clues separately. Combine them…
      To make a whole item you have to combine the ingredients…marry them…
      To make a whole solution you need all the ingredients…and they must be married…

      But then, I’ve never had a problem interpreting “in the wood” or “treasures bold” or “new and old” or “no paddle up your creek” either.

      The one phrase in the poem that I struggle with is:
      As I have gone alone in there”…
      My question is….. where is there?
      Is he talking about the Hidey place or WWWH

      and as long as I’m at it, I guess I’ve never really settled on “heavy loads and water high” either…

      We all have our own personal devils…

      • By definition going in there would be going into some type of area. I don’t believe that trying to determine whether this area is WWWH or the hidey space is helpful at all. Like you said we are trying to marry the poem to a map. This is the first line of the poem therefore it’s more likely a bigger picture idea to help us determine the right map. We have to narrow it down as we progress through the poem IMO.

  7. When Forrest’s says “marry”, what pops into my head is that line from The Jewel of the Nile (film) when Ralph (Danny DeVito) says to Colton (Michael Douglas), “Well Colton, looks like you hitched your wagon to a star this time.” Not sure if that’s precisely what he said but it’s close. It has nothing to do with the Chase, but it’s funny. Married means “hitched”. That’s useful, IMO.
    Anybody found it yet?

    • Copperhead,

      Interesting article indeed. I had been led to that area for various other reasons, never a HOB, well maybe one to the west. Are you aware of Chase Canyon there too? I had read about a solve posted elsewhere here that was in Eagle Nest. I haven’t been real focused on the area recently but if there was a valid WWWH that may help. I would be interested to know what you think on that and I will try to take another look myself. Dal and others have suggested to me that FF didn’t have any strong connections to Scouting. I’m not sure what ese would connect him to that area specifically. But it’s definitely an area of interest to some. All IMO.


    • This is a great drive for those searching in the area. Rich in history. Fortunes made and lost. Mining and milling could be heavy loads. Mountains to the east. Mountains to the west. Good day-drive loop out of Taos. Early searches thinking Red River may be wwwh took Moreno Valley as the canyon down. Touch-Me-Not mountain above E-town fit with ‘do not touch’ chapter in TTOTC. Beautiful area.

  8. Maybe Forrest means MERRY the clues to a place on a map.

    Merry meaning = of an occasion or season – characterized by festivity and rejoicing.

    Maybe Forrest is simply trying to say that the hidden Treasure location is a place that when experiencing it at a certain time of year will fill ones soul with an overwhelming amount of happiness and cause one to rejoice.

    The Treasure Chest may just be an added bonus.

    Rejoice – archaic – cause joy to, “I love to rejoice their poor Hearts at this season.”

    If the season is summer then may something have to bloom to guide the way? Maybe the blaze is a summer bloom of sorts.

    Only Forrest knows……………. for now anyways. 🙂

    Pauley T

    P.S. Let’s go scrapbook 249, where are ya? 🙂

    • The concept of an “overwhelming amount of happiness” seems to “fit” in my

      • TA,

        Well now ya tell us?

        That’s funny…

        “Overwhelming amounts of happiness”…

        Speaking of every life matters…if y’all ever want a good 10 minute read, Google this…

        Bunny George, Vancouver

        “Dying in plain sight”

        …and God Bless his poem..

        “The Bunny’s Prayer”; By J.B.

        …It would be nice to read it in its entirety.

        I’m with ya Joerg Brylla. .I’m with ya!


    • When I think of joy, I think of enjoyment. But not washing dishes . . . because
      that leaves deep canyons in my hands.

  9. Ann O,

    re. previous questions, I don’t believe there are any clues in the poem that
    help identify wwwh and yet that is the first task it seems. I hope you are
    not a “poem purist” and consider ATF information as well, such as: many places
    wwwh, only one hoB in the poem, 10 billion blazes out there (all paraphrased).

    If you decided that warm waters were perhaps thermal springs then
    NOAA.gov thermalsprings might be very interesting to you. Clicking on any
    spot and then the name will help eliminate HOT springs. Then topozone.com
    has great maps that you can use to marry (check off) as many parameters
    as possible from the arbitrary starting point you chose. Is there a creek, a
    road, a canyon, a “water high”, a hoB, a wood, a parking place near the wood,
    an absence of human trails/paths in close proximaty (sic) to the wood, public
    access, within 5 – 10.2 K ft elevation range, gentle terrain where an 80 year-old
    man could go, and on and on? Winter armchair activity. If the parameters
    cannot be satisfied then it’s on to the next guess IMO. Yes, this approach
    is trial and error but it will eliminate some unproductive ground searches.

    If I were to find a place that had NO disqualifications, even though not all of the
    clues were answered, it might be worth a trip to the area to try and confirm
    or deny the missing clues, eg if a ground search turned up a possible home
    of Brown then I would hightail it to the wood with a metal detector and search
    around every rock/rock formation in the wood. Oh yes, with bear spray of course.

    I think there are some people who are nearly in a catatonic state because
    they haven’t gotten the sign, the signal, the absolute confirmation that “their”
    warm waters location is 100% correct and so they will probably never even
    leave their house. An EDUCATED guess as to where to start is as good as
    we will have, in my opinion, and no, I don’t play Canasta!

    • D. Crockett,

      Thanks for the thoughtful remarks. I have not yet settled on the best approach to figuring out the poem. I guess you could say I am still in the exploratory stages. I have mentioned elsewhere that I don’t intend to put BOTG, so I hope that does not change your thoughts on my efforts. I am in tighter communication with those who do put BOTG and I more or less am playing the part of think tank. Someone to bounce ideas off of and lend my thoughts. I like solving problems and these certainly seems like an interesting one to me.

      I’d like to think I’m a fairly good read of what sort of information is or is not pertinent or at least a good read of how much importance to give it. Still I thank you for the reminder.

      I also wanted to thank you for the links! That is probably more helpful than simply ambiguous discussion. It is interesting that we may never be sure of a solve unless and until the chest is found. Makes you wonder whether that searcher will be able to say “I knew I had to start here because……” or “I wasn’t sure, but this seemed like the most likely because…..” Either way, I am looking forward to the because part of that response!

      And I concur that an educated guess is better than no guess at all, or at least avoiding searching even guesses. And I haven’t played Canasta in a very long time! All IMO.


  10. Thank you Dal for the treasure hunting website, and for putting up with crazy people with runaway imagination and stuff.

  11. This is it…..the votes have been tallied…..no not the votes in Iowa….the votes on the possibility of a real solve in TTOTC. After. a decade ( give or take days one way or the other) it is now believed by many, sad to say myself included, that given the vagueness of the clues, the vast search area, the thousands upon thousands of hours spent researching and searching by some of the brightest minds on terr-forma, it may now be high time to close the book and classify this “chase” as a “cold case”.

    It has been thrilling at times,
    especially watching us all jumping in and out the endless rabbit holes following the dangling scrapbook carrots.

    I want to thank Forrest for keeping the entertainment at an Academy Award level and thank Dal for his supplying the main stage where players have danced in from one wing and off the other.
    It is now time to take a final bow. I hope my children’s, childrens, children’s, one day in the future eons of time to be able to stroll down a gallery in the Smithsonian and peer in display at a charmed bronze box full of BOBBLES once owned by Forrest Fenn.

    In parting I would like to pass this on…..JDA….STAY SAFE!!!!

    • Impatience only gives premature results! And putting it in a museum will cause a blimmish . For the story is truely the treasure . But I have come to find we were all created equal and it’s our beliefs that make us different…. Say someone left something on or in your property worth a lot and you discover it later would you say you got thirty days over the phone which is more than most would do for sure . Or would you make an effort to return it which would in my opinion put you above the general public based solely on your beliefs of right and wrong. In return you might receive more than what you would have by just keeping what was left. But with out the story you only have face value . Like Fenns chest without the story you have a box of gold artifacts and some other things . The story’s make the items treasure. All in my opinion …..CM

    • Guy, I hope you’re not permanently “off this case”. Maybe you could renew your
      interest in it eventually.

      If you feel very, very strongly that you are outta here (regarding solving the poem), do you mind posting your best idea(s) from the solving you have done?
      It could possibly help another searcher. Maybe the two of you could reach an
      agreement about a reward for your help. Just a thot. All IMO.

  12. A guy by the name of Bronson Hair did an interview with Forrest for his blog. Bronson did a great job and you can tell there is a connection between Forrest and Bronson.

    If you have Forrest’s memoirs then this interview will not divulge anything new to you but it is always interesting to hear the fascinating little twists and turns Forrest’s stories take when he retells them.

    There is a link to this interview and a hundred more on our Media Coverage page…which can be found here:

    • Thank you Dal, for providing a repository for all things Fenn. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

      I do not understand why more people, if indeed they are serious searchers, do not avail themselves of this resource; especially the Media Coverage page.

      One of my favorites there is the one where Forrest reads the first few lines of the poem, and then declares, “That is the first few clues!”

      Thanks again big guy……..loco

        • Hello mBG,

          You kinda help make my point.

          It is apparent that probably 99% of supposed searchers have little, to no idea, what Fenn has said; that includes those who claim to have encyclopedic knowledge of Fenn.. And that’s not just here at HOD; it’s across the internet.

          LOL!! OK, I’m off my soapbox!! It’s only been 24 hours since I posted the comment. Let’s give it awhile and see if someone finds it and posts it. Hopefully, there are a few that are searching the Media Page for it, as we speak. (if they are, they will definitely run across some other tidbits that most haven’t encountered. 🙂 )

          Quite honestly, I really thought that at least one searcher here would have recognized the comment and posted the link to it already. (That is why I raised my estimate of searchers to 99%, above)

          Now, if Dal gives me choice between a nuking or posting the link, then….. 🙂

          Dal has ~175 entries on the Media Page. He works hard to try and keep it current with whatever comes available. So I think it should be utilized to its fullest by serious searchers….I have well over 200 entries in my own ‘Media” file of Fenn reports and I doubt that I have them all.

          • Awesome, I see that Zap found it while I was composing/typing my rant. LOL!!

            Well done Zapster. But ya coulda waited a couple days and let Dal get a few hits on The Media Page. 🙂

          • Loco & Zap,

            Great find. I was searching for it last night but didn’t find it. So which “first” mention are we to believe is accurate or more precisely which definition of first are we to use.


      • meBigGuy: Colombian radio interview (7/10/2016) @ 3:08, host: “Okay, and can you read us a little bit of the poem?” FF: “I’ll read the first few lines. ‘As I have gone alone in there, And with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where, And hint of riches new and old. Begin it where warm waters halt, And take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.’ Okay, that’s the first part of the … I think there are 24 stanzas (sic), and that’s the first few clues.”

        Link: https://www.wradio.com.co/escucha/archivo_de_audio/para-encontrar-mi-tesoro-de-us2-millones-deben-descifrar-mi-poema-forrest-fenn/20160710/oir/3184644.aspx

        • Now, the question is, on that day and at that time:

          If Forrest’s a ‘few’ lines equaled 8 (eight), does that mean that the first ‘few’ clues translates to 4 (four) clues in the second stanza?? 🙂 …..or, three??….surely more than two?

          Good Luck to Ya Zap

          • I’m more concerned about; a physical presence is needed after the first “few” (couple?) of clues.

            As you said loco… Folks need to review, research, many ATFs in any attempt to understand how “few” “many” “several” “more than several” “couple” etc seems to relate.

          • Hi Loco & all following along. As I posted on Jenny’s a little while ago, I transcribed that portion of the audio sometime last year, and as Loco pointed out it’s one of the lesser-known interviews. It’s consistent with the “Sounds like 3 or 4 to me” quote, adding support to the theory that when Forrest said “sounds like,” he was being straight-up rather than engaging in subterfuge. (Some had theorized that with “sounds like” Forrest was muddying the waters by saying, in effect, “That *sounds like* there are 3 or 4 clues there, but that doesn’t mean there are.”) So there is actually some value in this Colombian radio quote because it is more declarative.

            Reminds me of the “I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water” ATF that later became declarative here on Dal’s under “Safety First”: “The treasure chest is not under water, nor is it near the Rio Grande River.”


          • This emphasizes the idea that one should listen very carefully when Fenn says he is not trying to mislead anyone… and that he’s not trying to fool anyone either. I think there are a *couple* of other good tells in Media Coverage that have not garnered much attention as well. Or… is that a *few* ?

        • .
          There was another interview, I think with Lorraine Mills, where she asked him about clues and read the second stanza to Forrest. He repiled

          “Sounds like 3 or 4 to me”

          I think hes just brilliant.

          • Not leaving out the last two lines in stanza three was read and stated; sounds like a couple more (clues).

            Imo, the different terms all seem to have almost the same definitions… More than one but not many more.
            However context might help in determining any amount.

            Example; “more than several” searchers have deciphered the first two clues or arrived at the clues. How many is more than several? In one case, in comparison to 250,000 searchers… It could be dozens of not hundreds.

            Just sayin…

        • oh that is what I am doing wrong… I seem to be missing like 18 stanzas of the poem 🙂

          imagine the discussions if poem were around 24 stanzas.

          taking 10years+ for 6 stanzas….. ouch.

    • Awesome Dal. I’ll Check those out. I hope Forrest realizes that the finder might not want to have his/her name out there. I hope he doesn’t have his heart set on the finder coming forward. I mean people will come out of the wood work that he/she hadn’t heard from in years wanting money.

      I’m trying to Mate the clues to a map the other day when I thought of some other possible issues. There will probably be people in the search community who go on the attack in one way or other. Plus, you always have the possibility of ex lovers trying to get a piece of the pie by using the fact that the finder is now a public figure to protect themself from defamation suits as they lie/distort events from the past about the finder. Maybe sell their story to the National Enquirer.

      Not my style. Fenn can be the one to reveal the solution to all of you if I get it. Good thing I can counter attack any reputation smears coming my way. Some people have even tried to claim it’s a hoax and that Fenn is in on it with the finder whoever that will be. It’s amzing to me how rude internet people can be. They might even point to some posts to try to say there was some code being sent in the blogs. No, I don’t want any of that crazy stuff going on in my life. I’m remaining firmly anonymous if I find it and I suggest that everyone else should feel the same way lest some unexpected drama should surface. Anyway, back to the poem and maps for me. Thanks for posting the links to the old interviews and best wishes.

      • Jo, it is called anonymity, and like or as the location of the Treasure is simply obscure, hidden or remote, concealed, covered, veiled,shrouded, screened, masked etc. it will be hard to disguise what may be the biggest find anyone could experience, ask yourself if I win the lottery what should I do?

        ff might advise to just be quiet for 30 days…I would consult two people I know that care for me or at least like me,(Not easy to find) (3 wise men and a Vegan) and if they are or being, mature good citizens of character, ask what they would do (?) and if they both give you the same advice, like “Lawrence Peter Berra”, AKA Yogi Berra say…take it.


        • Searchers and archers have one thing in common about being lost in the wood, and it ain’t being bewildered,
          If I get lost or bewildered and need plausable denile I would just mispell a word and utter this:

          “I never said most of the things I said. Then again, I might have said ’em, but you never know.” Thanks YB and S.

          Gotta love Forrest Fenn and baseball or golf stories.


          • Anyone who can only think of one way to spell a word obviously lacks imagination.

            I have no respect for a man who can spell a word only one way.

            Never trust anyone who can’t spell a word more than one way.

            Was that WC Fields or Twain?


      • Not that I even have a chance given that I won’t be able to get to search states any time in future, but if I were the one to unlock the poem and treasure location, I would stay quiet as a church mouse other than to let Forrest know it was recovered so his family could rest, give the chest back to him to put in a museum so others could see and enjoy it, and give the bracelet to him to give to his granddaughter. I’m sure Forrest would figure out how to tell the story of the search and recovery and secret return in a way that protects and respects me, and allows the mystery of Fenn’s treasure solve and location and finder to live on as a story of miracles for the ages packed with lessons for future generations. I could see it being movies and book series to fascinate treasure hunters for 1000 years. Meanwhile, I’d disappear with a King fit for a Queen and change the world…..like Prince Harry and Meghan are revving up the jet engines to do. Who wants to follow the Monarchy anyway? Strike your own light. That’s what I’d do.

        Aren’t dreams wonderful.

        • IveFlownHome, your winter thoughts above sound like you may also imagine or believe that the first clue has little to do with hot water from a geothermal spring or vent, and much more about the spiritual events of life, well Mr Terrific feel like that as well, when one has escaped death several times, then suddenly that event is over, we are left with a strange but unshakable feeling that perhaps there is more to this life and more to this poem about life and survival than meets the eye.

          I think the SC Books hold so many hints about this place ff repurposed, renamed and now calls “Where Warm Waters Halt” the only answer is simple but as old as history. Scrapbook 241 and 243 speaks to our spirit and TTOTC page 9 is an important place to start in our quest for the meaning of why we are here and what this journey is all about. In the Native American legends, which are also often kept as secrets and protected like Forrest protects the location of Indugence, we often see feathers as a spiritual metaphor for The feather symbolizes trust, honor, strength, wisdom, power, freedom and many more things. … Indians believe that eagles have a special connection with the heavens since they fly so high. When given a feather to hold on to or to wear we hold it, we must put it out for everyone to see. This will be a constant reminder of how to behave. An eagle feather is a lot like the American flag, it must be handled with care and can never be dropped on the ground. It is SACRED, Eric knew this and that was why the comments about the Rakish feathers from Forrest in SC Book 243 and 244, without a doubt, ff educated Eric and Eric did likewise to Forrest.

          By far the hardest word to define is not “Blaze” it is “Halt’ and without knowing the context from which it came we cannot begin to grasp it IMO, It is a Conundrum, a riddle whose answer is or involves a pun 2 a : a question or problem having only a conjectural answer b : an intricate and difficult problem. Kids can see it, and may understand the meaning, but Grown Ups struggle with its sublime nature. I think the same is true for the Put in below the home of Brown, something tells me Forrest has hidden these clues right out in the open but to see em we must think like a kid..


          • I like the way you’ve expressed this. Yes, a spiritual journey is how I see it (yet I wonder if it was meant to be a guided journey with a loving teacher or baptism by fire and witch hunting with killer dogs for good measure!).

            My dad, my son, me and several others in my family have had more near death experiences than most it seems. Not sure why that is. They change you and can make it hard to relate to others at times. Some spiritual journeys tied to gold/money can go terribly wrong when left to adults…things can spin out of control it seems and great harm and death can be the result. That is heartbreaking to me. Im sure it isn’t what Forrest wanted.

            All of my Fenn books were lost in a move begin a new spiritual journey, so page references escape me. Not sure what is on page 9 or the others you mention.

            I understand the eagle feather. All my dad’s and ancestors wore them, rakishly no less. Done things are so sacred and so private…they are never spoken of…only celebrated through myths and legends. I thing Fenn treasure is just that.

          • Iveflownhome , when you say youve lost all your Fenn books in a move begin a new spiritual journey.
            are you done searching ?

  13. I jut popped up from my winter hiding spot like the mighty groundhog to see if there was any news on the big surprises this year.

  14. So far the best comebacks repeated on this blog of 10 years:

    1) when teacher asks forrest (don’t you know anything),
    Forrest’s reply: (I don’t even suspect anything.)

    2) the pony tailed girl with matching fishing outfit asks Dal what he was doing when Dal was relaxing in the warm waters of Ojo Caliente after a few days of searching, she decided she’d come back to do same thing.
    Dal’s reply: (what time) 🙂

    I like these because my personal mouth/brain connection has somewhere around a 4hr time delay for saying the right thing 🙂

    3) ?

  15. Hi all- not sure if anyone’s brought this up before or not, but i found it strange. has any one noticed that the drawing on page 25 TTOTC book is the same as the cover of the Saturday evening POST. July 14 1951?? Google it. -Jay.

    • Hi Jason, yes — there are many Rockwell “inspired” illustrations in TTOTC: the biddies on page 20, “Facts of Life” on page 25, the Chicago Fire cow on page 31 (mirror-reversed), “No Swimming” on page 51, George M. Cohan’s song “Over There” on page 71 (note the omega in the upper right corner of the Life Publishing Co. cover), and the second girl from the left on page 110 is the African American girl from Rockwell’s “The Problem We All Live With” from 1963 (Illustration for “Look” on January 14, 1964).

      • Oh yeah. Thanks zaphod, its probably a rabbitt hole but its new to me so i shall investigate it a bit further. Jay

        • Zaphod-Seeing as you know much more than me on this, do you know if any one has ever asked fenn why this is? I also just seen on thor that the family boat in one picture is called ‘skippy’. Strange. Jay

          • The plot thickens, that is very strange, I over looked the colour thanks for pointing that out. Its obvious people have traveled this road but who knows maybe a fresh set of eyes on it, just may turn up some thing new or a different way to view it.

        • Speaking if investigation, Eric Sloane whittled a few things down for me,but it took days for me to figure him out. I need to go for a bike ride and clear things out sumday,man,tuday I’m tired.
          Maybe that’s a good idea since I will be breaking up with Irene.

        • I agree, definitely inspired by that cover. I’m going to look in to the dates of these see if anything significant appears. On the next page, P.21 it appears to me, like there is a word written on the hat of the mirrored man?

        • zaphod, thank you for taking the time to point these things out and for helping me. I appreciate it immensely. Jay

        • Thanks Zap, for the ride thru old times. I dont have the research powers or mental acuity to pull all that stuff together, but I enjoyed your efforts. Perhaps, if anything hints is in FF’s homage to Rockwell (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery), it is not in the pictures themselves, but in the name…. to look under a ROCK, in an old dry WELL …… sorta affirming the pic on pg 218 in TFTW.

          • That’s not a bad suggestion, its a good way to look at it. OS2. I’m going to look into the names, dates and meaning behind the drawings both on fenns side and rockwells. Some thing make pop up.

            Brainuon- who made cups?

          • The Norman Rockwell museum collection? Gave mine up about seven years ago, they had the paintings on the side so you could look at paintings while you drank.

        • Lisa: thanks for forwarding the link to Allen K’s “in the style of” presentation on the Rockwell-inspired illustrations in TTOTC, among other things. I had not seen it before, though I’m well familiar with Allen K. I like Allen’s analytical approach to the Chase, and he and I evidently think much alike — particularly in that he, too, seized on this SB 152 quote from Forrest: “Life should be an illustrated search for hidden treasures, and not just a guided tour.” *ILLUSTRATED search for HIDDEN TREASURES*.

          Allen K. shares my love of pattern-matching and finding connections (e.g. Forrest’s Rockwell Commander airplane, the corn at San Lazaro Pueblo hidden in a bowl inside a “rock well”). I just left a comment under his YouTube video listing a bunch more rock/stone connections.

  16. Geysergirl, The drawing was discussed years ago. I think it means nothing except its an example of another one of the little things ff throws into the book to catch your attention for its own sake. Like sitting by the pond or walking on path and recognizing a certain bird or butterfly….. a little thing to notice and appreciate, that makes the time spent rewarding in itself. IMO

    • OS2 – After I thought about it, I would agree 100% with you. Another example that comes to mind is on page 125 of TTOTC where he states: It is well said that “God subtracts from the allotted time of man, those hours spent fishing.” When the actual saying is: God WILL NOT subtract from man’s allotted time the hours spent in fishing. Thank goodness or I’d be dead by now! LOL!

      • I believe there are several reason that Forrest miss quotes:. It might be an abbiration and he is trying to point out a hint. Or he gets his point across with out having to cite the author Or three he likes to see people get riled up over miss quoting. He is really good at what he does!

        • My opinion is the artist made expeditious use of Rockwell’s originals as inspiration to create a suitable package of illustrations, on time and on budget for Fenn.

  17. Geysergirl- I was googling marvin fenn and as i scrolled through images, i noticed that picture and thought thats familiar.

    • -Just found it on hints of riches from 2019 and theres another on page 51. Also borrowed from rockwell surely some thing in it imo.

  18. I’m bored. So I put a thought together. This thought would only interest the early on searchers IF they went this route.
    WWsH could be defined as 98.6 degrees. Yep, not much help, right? Ok ya can stop reading then. Yet is it represents a graveyard, or grave site… the remaining clues can lead out of the place.
    A whole, 6′ deep, one foot in the grave, below dirt. But why a grave or grave site?
    FTINPFTM… seems almost obvious if you think about it.. Everyone’s end is ever drawing nigh. TBNPUYC JHLAWH. You apparently are not up that famous creek yet, but now we are looking for HLNWH… outside this location?

    IF you been wise and found the blaze… Is the blaze a marker.. a headstone of sorts {hoB?} and while standing at it, might HLnWH is revealed?

    Just a thought{s}; for the smaller search area ideas folks… respectfully and in high-regards. Geographical locations don’t have to be miles apart.

    End of commentary…

    • Deep thoughts, Seeker. Reminds me of Mr. Fenn telling the story of how Skippy should have been buried standing up.

    • Heres another deep thought… well, maybe not so deep, but an example anyway.

      I was looking at Las Vegas NM ( its below the limit line of 8.25 mi N of Santa Fe) , but the Gallisto river splits the town. The halves are known as E & W Las Vegas, or sometimes as New & Old Las Vegas. Just a thought on Riches new & old.

      By the way, where exactly is that 8.25 mi limit N of Santa Fe…. looking at the city boundary map the N border is a straight line except for one long finger that extends up the highway. What point do you measure from?

  19. Regarding Norman Rockwell,

    Lot’s of posts today! Seems like FF fever is on the rise as Spring quickly approaches. Fun to see.

    The use of Rockwell is interesting to me because I once saw the Rockwell collection on display at the National Scouting Museum which was located in Murray, KY at the time. And I was surprised to learn that it had moved to Irving, TX in 2002. And guess where it is being relocated to next? Philmont in NM! For those of you interested, that is just east of Eagle Nest. It all just makes me wonder…….


    • The Norman Rockwell Exhibit, “Imagining Freedom”, will be at the Denver Art Museum – opening May 2. Also of interest may be ‘Natural Forces” an exhibit featuring Winslow and Remington pieces which opens mid March. Maybe Doug got it mixed up and Forrest was going to leave his car at the DAM. Forrest doesn’t like to correct people when they are wrong.

        • Rockwell also illustrated some adverts on Good Housekeeping magazine. Did anybody ever found that can opener ad that ff mentions on TTOTC?

          • Hello OZ10. I haven’t found any advertisements. I’ve looked up different types of can openers for the 30’s and 40’s to see the styles and wondered how they would compare to the face mentioned in the book. With a little imagination, I could “think” I saw a face, but I really wasn’t sure if this was what we were to think about. Could it be possible it had to do with periodicals, such as Time magazines, and the deliverance by mailmen? Mr. Fenn’s mother was mentioned looking out the window as if waiting for the mailman in TTOTC book (paraphrasing). There were other questions I’ve asked myself over the years in regards to this matter.

          • The best I could come up with is that Forrest wants the reader to organize the chapters in a cohesive fashion. Which I have done and it proved IMO to be the best way to apply TTOTC to the poem. You need the Good House Keeping seal of approval. It was also a slang phrase about the usefulness of a woman in a kitchen.

          • pdenver, you may be right and we may never find out. Was there a face on the opener or something else? It could be a riddle, like JC whatever waving the olive jar in his face. What was that about?

          • Hello OZ10. With imagination, the can opener could look like a face’s profile with the “lower jaw” jutting out. To me, it looks like an old children’s story about a steam shovel:


            This is only one type of can opener which was available in the 30’s and 40’s:


            To this day, we use the church key style can/bottle opener. I recall being a young child and my parents opening a small glass of Coca Cola with one. I also remember my father using one to pierce the cans open for oil, etc. for vehicles.

            I think I tend to wonder more about Mr. Fenn’s comment in his book comparing it to the face of the woman he mentioned. I know when I first read it, I thought, “Ouch!”

          • Hello OZ10. Besides the mystery of the jar of olives being waved, another is seeing how high he could bounce.

          • Hello OZ10. I enjoyed the link. The swing away arm looks like something to me.

            Hello Lady V. Thank you for your suggestion.

          • It’s really hard to find a good can opener. They are like dishwashers– they last about five years and then stop working and just mangle the can.

            That is until I discovered the side opener. It is superior for several reasons. It lasts many many years (so far) and it removes the lid without any sharp bits to cut yourself with during the wash up. The only problem is that none of my kitchen guests know how to use it.

            The part in the book about the can opener is more about the facial expression than the item and it is an important clue, I think.

          • Maybe his mind wandered off to the can opener he’d seen in the advertisement cause Ms. Ford was about to open a can of whup-ass on him. He does that sometimes.

  20. I don’t believe he would have left his car anywhere near where he would eventually lay to rest with his chest of goodies. If it was me I’d park in one place, then take a cab, train, flight or even thumb a ride so that I would be far away from my vehicle. Would you really want to lay all these plans in place, only to give the game away with vehicle placement? All imo of course. -Jay

    • Jason, The car at the museum is a hint but I can’t tell you why, it’s a pretty big hint to one of the clues. It has nothing to do with the placement of the the car. Think Catcher in the Eye…. hope that helps and don’t tell anyone. All in my o-pine- yun

      • Bec- I’ve only ever looked at its placement and for that reason, discounted it. I never really looked much in to any other aspect. (stupid me) I shall now however.
        I do have a solve, not saying its the correct one, but I have one. So I will definitely look in to your comment to see if I can figure out what you have and then see if it fits in with my solve. Hopefully it will. If not back to the drawing board lol. Oh and if I do manage to figure it out, I’ll definetly keep it to myself, Promise. Thank you for pointing out a new avenue for me. Appreciate it -Jay

        • Like someone said, there are many ways/ angles to look at Forrests comments. Usually it’s not what we see first off. He seems to speak with forked tongue. Forrest has clearly repeated himself over and over using different words. Most folks think it’s jibberish, he speaks Fennish for sure. He said, some folks were in striking distance from the treasure. That’s a hint if you know what he is really saying. All in my opinion..

          • -BEC your a star. I’m not sure if I picked up on the same thing/things you did or not, but i picked up on something useful to me. two things in fact maybe bias may not be time will tell. Thanks again.-Jay

      • Good one (“I can’t tell you why”). Where’s the salt?
        (Did I really say that?) Hee hee. As always, in my opinion.

    • So you’re carrying a forty pound box of gold (and presumably a bottle of sleeping pills), you’re dying, and you’re hitch hiking. Are you sure you’ve thought this through?

      • The original hiding logistics would not have been difficult to achieve without leaving his car (or any car) anywhere nearby. Example:

        Drive to the closest point of automobile access, whether in his own car or a rented one. Take in the treasure, return to the car, take in the treasure chest, combine and hide/obscure however desired, then walk back to the car with an empty backpack.

        Drive some distance away — 5 miles, 10 miles, whatever — preferably uphill of or level with the parking spot. Hide a purchased bicycle a couple hundred feet off the beaten path, but within walking distance of “civilization.” Return rental car, or leave personal vehicle parked at the Denver Museum (or wherever).

        Take public transportation (planes, trains, buses) back to inconspicuous destination that’s within walking distance of the bicycle. Walk to bike, ride it to the original treasure-hiding spot, then ditch it out of sight and make the final walk back to the treasure spot.

        • You bring up a descent scenario, Zap.
          But what’s to say the chest wouldn’t have been hidden long before another illness was taking it’s final toll.
          Drive to WWsH, follow the clues, hide the trove {two trips} and go home waiting for the final day to come. {but that story was ruined as well. he’s now almost 90 and still health with all his family}.

          It almost seems to me, that is what fenn may have done. He has said almost every year he could go back to the chest… age 84, 85, I even believe at age 87… maybe.
          I mean if you think about it… even at age almost 80… he had to think about the whatIFs ~ I get sick at age 82? Could he or would he still go, even with the challenge up and running?

          But now to my point;
          Just because no one knows now where he hid the trove *now*… doesn’t mean someone wouldn’t know later if he finalized his original plan. Don’tcha his famliy would know where his final resting place would be at the right time???

          As I have gone alone in there…
          So why is it I must go and leave my trove…
          He beat the odds.. but still had the option.

          The question is, would someone close {Shiloh?} had taken him? OR was he planning on leaving the family without that knowledge completely-?- should another illness come about.

          • It’s not about the Car, you guys are stuck on the stupid car. It’s not even about his logistical plan. The statement doesn’t represent what you think it does. How long have you guys been at this? I’m not going to give you the clue that the statement represents. Forrest uses metaphors for many hints to clues. The location of Denver is irrelevant, the car is irrelevant, perhaps now you can figure it out. But don’t bother listening to reason because it’s all in my opinion. Happy hunting Mr Hemingway

          • You have to learn how to connect the dots, remember originally he said Northern Arizona then Preston changed it in the intro to fit the region of the Rockies.. location is irrelevant. I won’t give anymore away because it’s too big of a hint. He talked about it again in a SB with the Momma Bear and her Cubs. He also mentioned it in several other SB’s but most of you guys don’t believe SB’S have hints, so it’s your loss. The Buffalo Skull above his fire place is also a hint to one of the clues… Small hint but it’s goes with a clue. All in my opinion of course, so don’t pay attention to the Man behind the curtain.

      • -hare. Zaphod gave a pretty good example of how it could be done. Its only in my opion of course. nobody needs to agree we me and i never said he would be carrying any thing at all… id put the item in place one day, come home spend a last day or two with my loved ones, then leave without saying a word and with nothing but the coat on my back and a pocket full of pills. Yes I thought it trough all right..-Jay

  21. Hey there Zap… one good turn deserves another….

    I slept on thoughts of Norman and this morning I printed out a pic of the Chicago Cow . Well, I’m a city girl, but even I can see an exaggerated tale. So many cow pies must mean sumptin.

    Good luck, OS2

    • OS2- I agree, i think rockwells been used to many times for there to be nothing in it at all. Imo of course. -Jay

        • Funny you should say that geysergirl because I dont think its a crazy thought at all. I had the exact same thought. I also belive I found a hint that relates to Fenn in a considerable way that people may have over looked, not 100% sure, so will have to keep that to my chest for now. To see how it develops -Jay

          • Jason – I guess anything could be a possibility. I always explore all angles, even if it seems a bit off. That odd “hint” may be more then a rabbit hole.

            On your other hint, is that related to the Rockwell findings as well? Not asking for what it is, just what it is in reference to.

          • -Geysergirl, Yes its rockwell related.. don’t you find it strange that covers of rockwell, seem to be perfect fits for Fenns memoir, years later? I do. I dont believe Fenn simply allowed copies of rockwells to be used in place of drawing that could have been easily drawn, originals, without copying anybody. I belive fenn himself choose to copy him and choose them ones in particular to be copied. All in my opinion of course. It’s in the early stages and may be bias to my solve. I’m unsure yet. -Jay

          • Don’t just look at the ones he did use, look at others that could have been used but for some reason, were not! Hope that helps… Again it’s just my opinion.

          • Jason: some extra information for you regarding Allen Polt’s use of Norman Rockwell pictures. Allen claims Forrest had absolutely nothing to do with his choice to utilize Rockwell works for (at least) five of the illustrations. Polt is also consistent in his insistence that Forrest could not have forced clues into his illustrations without him knowing about it.

            Searcher SidnCharley emailed Allen back in 2013, asking about the use of the Rockwell influence in the artwork for TTOTC book. Allen replied that most of his correspondence with Forrest was by email and that FF did not suggest the theme of the artwork (whether Rockwells or anything else). For instance, FF did not tell Allen how many stumps to include in the axe man drawing. (It’s an open question whether Allen was responsible for the clear Photoshopping in that illustration that surely increased the number of stars and stumps.) Polt said nothing that detailed was ever discussed. The closest thing he remembers about any FF direction was for the chapter about Stout-Hearted Men, for which FF said we used to sit around a campfire and sing, and something like that would be a good image for that chapter.

            Besides Rockwell, Allen said he used several other artist’s drawings for models to give him an idea of what to use to tell the story of a given chapter as he saw it. As an artist, he felt he changed enough things that there was no issue of copyright infringement (e.g. as far as the Rockwell theme). He added that there is NO way the direction he received from FF about these drawings could have slipped in any clues or hints. However, without knowing the content of Forrest’s directions to Allen, I can’t say I share Allen’s confidence. Forrest is pretty clever. I also don’t know if it was ever put to Allen whether he ever made a detailed comparison of his final drawings to what ultimately appeared in TTOTC — i.e., did Forrest change anything, however subtle?

          • Hello zaphod. I believe the sketches weren’t doctored by Mr. Fenn after Mr. Polt submitted them to him.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Hi Pdenver: if Allen handed everything over to Forrest and didn’t retain any originals, we may have no way to know. I’m confident Forrest altered some of them.

          • Hello zaphod. Do you believe he did so to hide subtle hints within the sketches? I would have thought more so within his written words in the stories.

          • Hi Pdenver: I don’t think Forrest squanders any opportunity to provide subtle hints: illustrations, text, or photographs. And in every memoir.

          • Zap…. i didn’t know all that stuff about Polt. Thanks, one more rabbit hole sealed off.

            There is no mistaking the copying of Rockwell’s originals in Polts sketches, which, if unrequested by Fenn, doesn’t make me think well of Polt as a graphic artist on a paid assignment. Parodies excepted, I though ‘Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery” was an insult among artists. But then…ff accepted it. Probably saw the value in another rabbit hole.

          • Hi again, Pdenver: let me give you an example of something subtle Forrest could have done to one of Allen’s illustrations. Look at the biddies atop page 20 of TTOTC. Now turn to page 110. Notice the first girl’s dress and compare to the biddy on the right. Now turn one page back to 109 and look at her again in miniature.

          • I believe that the drawings were all chosen on purpose the stories fit to the drawing “Rockwell” and were def altered by FF.

          • Hello zaphod. Unable to reach my book at the moment. I will try to look at the suggested pages this evening.

          • Zaphod as always thanks for the info.. however I’m unsure what to make of it. If taken at face value it’s a dead end. Fenn couldn’t have change the drawings after, Polt would surely know what had changed and then know what the clues added, would be. So in my mind out of the question. but if Fenn did choose them, then paid Polt not to say via way of contract, Polt wouldn’t be able to say nor would he know what the clues of them pictures were without knowing Fenns secret location before hand. I know that’s out on a limb so for now I’ll stick it on the back burner. Thanks again-Jay

        • Zap – Interesting info on the artwork in TTOTC. You’re amazing when it comes to that…thank you for sharing. And Jason, thanks for bringing another possibility to explore.

          One of my first thoughts way back when was whether or not there would be hints in the drawings. Fenn did not say subtle hints in the text/copy, he said ” subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.” That sounds to me like drawings could be included. But at the time, I shrugged it off as me (being a graphic artist) going down a familiar rabbit hole. I do agree with what you have stated above Zap, so maybe it is worth another look.

          One illustration in particular has always bothered me. It’s on page 33 of TTOTC, where they are playing marbles. The second boy from the left, where he has his arm on the other boy just seems like an awkward bend of his arm. I kept trying to look at the space created between his arms as maybe a defined area (NF, SP, etc) or maybe even a road map area but that never worked for me.

          Like everything else in the Chase, doesn’t hurt to go back and take another look at “anything” you may have perceived as useless early on. JMO

    • zap, sorry for butting in, but thats just printing shrink stuff…. Ive seen people submit a great picture of something they wanted printed on their business cards, and when it got shrunk down to business card size, the details got left off or it turned to mud. (I ran a small off-set press for a few years… long before computers.)

      • OS2: I can imagine that happening in some cases, but I’m skeptical that’s at work here. Compare the shrunken axe man on page 145 to the large version on 146. Plenty of fine details, and yet macroscopic details were removed: two stumps to the right of the axe man. Returning to the kids on the rope, look at the second girl (the one taken from Rockwell): her stripes are preserved. And let’s not forget the car: removed entirely. So that’s not a simple shrink job.

        • Hello zaphod. Would it be possible these may have been decisions made between Ms. Caldwell, Mr. Bruno, and Mr. Fenn as to placements, artistry, etc. for the book?

          • Lugnutz: you totally lost me on that one. I assumed the context was TTOTC, but there are no scrapbook photos with a prominent nail in them that I recall.

            If you’re talking Scrapbook scrapbooks, you’re going to have to be more specific since there are over 250 of them.

          • SB 190

            some of the men wore nothing at all in the summer time

            SB about Eric Sloane. Photoshopped nail in the cross/fence

        • I can’t believe we are still doing this.

          At least 2 people touch the art and page after Forrest.

          What are you saying happened here?

          A. Forrest lied, knows Photoshop, manipulated the image before sending it to the graphic artist.

          B. Forrest, having know such skills, sent the image to the graphic designer and added, remove the following from the Polt image.

          C. Forrest allowed the graphic artist to set the image for printing and Then told the person physically doing the print to remove part of the image?

          Any of the above would mean that at least one other person, and probably two, would have knowledge of the change. They would then have an advantage over everyone that doesn’t have that knowledge. It would also me that Fenn lied on many occasions when he said he wouldn’t do anything to favor one chaser over another.

          I don’t get it Zap. In particular, I find it hard to believe that you believe it.

          • Hello Lugnutz! I figured this thread might pull you out of the woodwork, lol. 😉 I know it’s been a sore subject with you (and Seeker too). I’m not sure why you are surprised that I would be open to the idea of minor illustration alteration by Forrest — after all, you know I’m in the (small?) camp of folks that thinks Forrest drops little hints whenever and wherever he feels like it. I just think it’s a fun game for him.

            If Forrest got it into his head that he wanted to sneak something into an illustration, don’t you think he’s clever enough to figure out a way to do it without tipping off Allen?

            And what if Allen has nothing with which to compare in order to even notice if something was added or removed (assuming he doesn’t have a photographic memory)? Or what if he does notice something obvious (like adding or removing flowers from a dress), but thinks nothing of it? You don’t think anything of it, right? Why should Allen? And more generally, what if many of Forrest’s so-called hints are so subtle that they are little more than an inside joke to be discovered by the solver of the associated clue?

            In closing, I have never found anything in any of the illustrations that would help a searcher solve a clue.

          • Lugnutz, you wrote: “I can’t believe we are still doing this.”

            I can’t either. But there’s a lot I find hard to believe about other searchers’ chase behavior.

            In this case, I think it’s just a matter of searchers grasping at straws, looking for hints or clues in TTOTC. Whatever it takes to avoid that impossible poem.

          • Ken

            I also understand that some people simply derive enjoyment from being the one that discovers something or makes a connection.

            The poem is not impossible. As Jack Sparrow might say, It’s nigh impossible.

          • Lugnutz – You make some valid points for the opposite thought that any changes to the drawings would be “added knowledge” that only a few people had and that was not something Forrest wanted. BUT, couldn’t we say that about editing the text as well? He would have (IMO) worked closely with his editor and could have added or deleted certain words. Isn’t that the same premise?

            I value both sides of the thought process here, but I always go back to just how clever Forrest is. Although as Zap has stated but from my perspective,”I have never found anything in any of the illustrations that has helped me solve a clue.”

          • Ken (TX): you have it wrong. I am perfectly satisfied with my solution to the poem. Have been since September. Lugnutz has been aware of my starting point for some time, and I think he will tell you that I am hardly grasping at straws.

            The illustrations, to me, are yesterday’s news. If you don’t want to believe there’s anything there, that’s your prerogative. I’ve been busying myself with more interesting tasks in the off-season: transcribing videos and audios (more for completeness, not because I *need* anything) and running my software to compute statistical odds of certain patterns appearing in written text by happenstance. In other words, testing the null hypothesis. Since I have time to kill before the snow melts, I have time to be mathematically rigorous when playing Devil’s Advocate with my solution.

        • Hi Pdenver: Susan Caldwell is a whiz at graphic arts, so yes — could have been a stylistic/artistic decision made. Plenty of that going on in the book — for instance, the frog, nuggets and coin on the blurry old map of New Mexico on page 133. That was Susan’s idea. I would imagine it was also her doing to Photoshop the coin pile on page 131 (the right third of the picture is a cut & paste of the middle). And Forrest said Susan is the one who inserted Skippy into the seat of his car in the picture on page 64 (Buffalo Cowboys chapter). I guess the point I’m getting at is that there was opportunity for minor illustration editing (for whatever reasons) at the book-integration stage.

          • Thinking more on it zaphod minor alterations are indeed possible. Say he made 15 (radom number) alterations but only 5 where made to be important and ten to disguise the five, then it wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility at all. Who would know which were important and which were not.

          • As an example, to even the most naive eye it’s pretty obvious that someone took a Sharpie to the Lanier school photo. That’s not photoshopping of course; it’s more like photo bombing. With L’s and lots of them. Or is that eLLe(s). Doubt I’ll ever figure it out but someone will. Maybe something to do with YeLLowstone…right??

  22. talk about the 8.25 miles north of santa fe – would it not be , that from the main road there at the end – you turn left and go 8.25 miles to the treasure chest – this is just my opinion and something to think about —- frank

    • 8.25 wise such a specific number ? I believe that’s why botg s are necessary. FF said in the guidelines “carry some kind of device that will make your location known at all times”.

      • Hi Rich and Frank;

        As it happens, from my put-in spot, below the hoB, it is very close to 8.25 miles to my “No paddle up your creek” spot.. Probably just a coincidence – This is using my “Big Picture Solve.” – JDA

      • Rich, I like your post, but do you know where those two things are? You may have those figured out in the poem, but if you don’t where they are in real life, then you have some work to do. Also, to my thinking the 8.25 miles is not important until after you get it. The number you’re looking for is a bit lower according to my solve.

        • JoJo, I tink that using numbers, or being concerned with them, will
          distract you from effective solving of the poem. But I woodn’t bet
          a hill of beans on this. As always, in my oPInion (that’s “opinion”
          with 2 Capital letters).

          • Tall, on the contrary, in my opinion numbers play a huge role in the solve. In my solve anyway. As far as the 8.25 miles number- that one I agree is a distracton. It doesn’t matter much how far above Santa Fe the chest is. The rockies end north of Santa Fe anyway so Santa Fe shouldn’t have been in anyones search area to begin with. There are two mountian ridges that are the bottom of the Rockies above Santa Fe. One is to the West by the Rio Grande and one is to the East called the San De Cristo Mountains or something like that.

            As for numbers as a general idea: You have to use them to solve it unless you want to solve it the hard way.

  23. I think the can opener actually opens something like line nine no place for the meek. Seams to refur to some type of animal. Do you not draw the rain nigh left, but a paddle sounds like something a dogwood do from the cornaceaes family Google it.

    • Moving on to 12 “heavy loads and water High”. Sounds like a spin cycle on a washing machine but that doesn’t exactly clean things up for me.

      • Thinking about the washing machine that Skippy made into a copter … Heavy Loads– that’s a good one Rich… another fan / motor connection there like Roping Cody…boy that’s some imagination Fenn has! It has a little bit of everything . Lots of smoke for such a little alot of lost rabbits

  24. An estimated 2 million Americans are actively in the search for Forrest’s chest. That’s the number arrived at by Dr. Alan King in his paper, just published in the “Human Arenas Journal”.

    Alan is with the Psychology Dept. at the University of North Dakota. He spent time with many searchers last summer and even more time researching the Chase, and us who are involved in it. He also collected data from searchers via this website and others. His end game was an academic paper characterizing searchers.

    The paper was published yesterday and is titled “Treasure Hunting as an American Subculture”. Alan sent along a link to his website where you can view some of his photos that don’t appear in the report and on that page is a link to the paper itself.

    When. you click on the link below you will go to Alan’s website with a gallery of photos. On the top left of that page is a green box that reads: “Journal Publications”. Clicking on that box will take you to the report on the journal’s website…

    There is another green box on the far right that reads “Time Line, Close Encounters…”
    Clicking on that box will call up a page of quotes. Some common…some rarely read.

    Anyway…have fun and enjoy reading about yourself…


    • W O W; Even if that number is twice what it actually is – still, one million is a BUNCH – Let’s see, one or two million spread over the four states = how many square miles per searcher? Still a BIG number – 🙂 JDA

    • I am a few pages in. I find the report easy to read and quite fun. My fav sentence so far is in a section where he is writing about blog influence:
      “Elder chasers sometimes make efforts to educate less-informed compatriots, but they do so at the hazard of a curt reminder that both tutor and student have equal records of accomplishment in this decade-long treasure hunt.”

        • I landed in 1 percentile for completed education. Lol. And under radar for most else of studay. Wonder when it’s gonna be found. Betting it’s gonna be…

          • Well, if ya read it on the internet it’s gotta be true!!

            2023 it is then……right…right???

            Thanks for posting the links Dal

            (think I’ll go take a nap for a few years)

          • It’s wrong. Data was computed before me and my ego got involved. They should’ve checked withe prior to that and definitely before my spouses ultimatum. Statistical error, they’ll be able to correct it later when I give them sources from me.

          • I read the report about 4 clues being found in 2016, leading to an estimate of 2023 when the TC is found. Maybe I missed something important, but what are the 4 clues found up to and including 2016? Did I miss something or is this just some guess made by an outsider?

          • I like that the guy is passionate about data, but there is no way that there can be a reliable estimate of when someone will figure out 9 clues based on number of clues found to date. One thing that complicates the matter is that the first clue finders have no confirmation of clues found. Another huge problem is that the first two clue finders didn’t understand the poem, so they failed to find more and went past the chest. To our knowledge nobody has figured out the poem and how it works. Figuring out that will determine the finding of future clues, not number of clues found by a certain date. There is no way to statistically estimate when clues will be solved and when the treasure will be found.

          • Even Forrest says it’s unpredictable (the find date), and if *he* can’t predict based on the ultimate in insider information, then certainly no one else can do better.

            There are no reliable metrics of progress since individual searchers are not told how many clues they’ve solved, nor (apparently) is Forrest providing any more collective clue-solving progress. Some might point to that latter fact as evidence that 4 or more clues have been definitively solved, otherwise Forrest could just continue to trot out the “some may have solved the first four clues” progress report of November 2015.

          • In my opinion, the best person to estimate when the TC will be found may be Forrest himself. With all the interviews, why doesn’t somebody ask him? Besides, it seems to me that if he said the clues get easier the further you go, and four clues have already been found, someone should have already found it.

          • Quency, the clues probably do get easier, like FF said, if the poem was solved. Without understanding how the first two clues fit in with the poem then the clues won’t get easier IMO.

      • Then the elder Chaser reminds the student that it isn’t true that there is an equal record of accomplishment between the two.

    • Wow. A lot of detailed data here. Thank you for sharing, I know a lot of us ponder about the size of the active chase community. I picked this out of the paper:

      “A more stringent definitional standard that required statistically significant awareness of the chase literature reduced the estimate to around 2,000,000 people, with about 22% of this cohort (433,013) appearing to possess the advanced knowledge necessary to be competitive.”

      That is the number I was always seeking – how many people are real contenders. That 433K figure gives us a start. Of course, there are other factors that I think reduce this number. Finances is a huge one. Another I think is temporal, as people become inactive for both short periods and longer periods. He also brought up an interesting point as to what constitutes “BOTG?” Is going on a reconnaissance trip to your area equivalent to BOTG, or is it only when you have constructed a “solve” and you have a target area?

      I have to go back and read this closely. Personally, I do not think you can find the treasure if you do not read TTOTC. While that is my personal opinion, if I am right, that will reduce the number of real competitors significantly. There are a lot of searchers who have learned a lot from blogs, vlogs, magazine articles and interviews who no doubt possess a lot of knowledge. But my own belief, again, is that the book is vital.

      Pulling a number out of my memory, I think (cannot verify) that about 45,000 books sold. (Talking TTOTC.) Add to that resells on Amazon and Ebay etc., multiple members in a family or friends who share the book, and my personal opinion is you have less than 100,000 contenders for finding the treasure. Maybe 80,000. (A lot of book sales to folks who never got into the chase at all.)

      As a competitor, in trying to target a number of searchers who are also “real competitors” and who will be BOTG (in a meaningful way) in 2020, I believe the number is much smaller. Of course I didn’t do a study.

      Good luck to all of my competition this spring and summer. I love being a part of the chase.

    • Hi Dal: thanks for the links. I went through the PDF file of the 200 & 300-500 Foot Clubs quotes to see if I was missing any. I found several I didn’t have (including the March 5, 2016 one), but also noted a number of date errors. The December 20, 2014 date should be December 30. The April 27, 2015 quote is from April 8th (the article was updated on 4/27). The June 25, 2015 date for SB 78 should be 2014.

      I have a slightly different transcript of The Cutting Room Floor short video from 9/17/2016. He has: “…Normally people tell me generally where they are but not specifically, but these people told me exactly where they were or recognized the spot and, but I didn’t tell them that they were close.” My version, which I believe is accurate, has an important difference: “Normally people tell be generally where they are, but not specifically. But, these people told me exactly where they were — I recognized the spot — and… but I didn’t tell them that they were close.” I think that’s an important distinction: *Forrest* recognized the spot from the photograph(s).

    • Thanks for that link, dal. It was an interesting read and fun to see how the results of the survey came out. I’m not sure if I found any of the results to be surprising, but it struck me that his data collection was stretched a little thin in some spots.

      I thought it was odd that there were no citations or references at all related to Jenny Kile’s “Mysterious Writings” site. I’ve always considered her site to be the #2 most popular Chase-information website after yours, so the omission of any data from her seems to be somewhat of a gaping void if he was going for a reliable cross-section.

      I also thought that it was kind of funny on page 4 how he attributed a sharp decline in “A Gypsy’s Kiss” viewership to indicate that “primary source Fenn interviews that are regarded as critical to the chase appear to have garnered fewer viewers” with only that one cited source of information.

      Ah well, overall it was a decent read. I was also interested in all of the photos Alan King shared on his site from his own search. Has he posted about that search on this site before? I was curious to see where those photos were taken.

    • Although I haven’t read the link, I’m enjoying reading the comments from other searchers. Some have made me giggle. 🙂

    • Must be because he thinks some of us are mental patients lol. If I’m not on that list i should be. I’m definitely a bit crazy. -Jay

      • Jason…I think that puts you in the 10% bracket. Alan writes that about 10% of the respondents wrote of their involvement as “addiction”.

        • Hi dal. That made me laugh. I must be in that 10% club for sure, I do feel like I’ve got a mild/major addiction. I must admit, i do get a little twitchy when not doing Fenn related research. I shall definitely have a read of that. Thanks you for the link and all the other things you share. -Jay

        • So does that mean there’s meetings, like besides fennborie. Has anyone done research on this addiction. Are there any sbs on this, what about interviews, was it in the book?

  25. Brain u on- If there isn’t any meetings now like F.A meetins (“Fenn”atics Anonymous), there will certainly need to be when it’s all over. I think people will be getting withdrawal symptoms.

  26. I’m definitely enjoying Alan’s paper — I think it does an excellent job of capturing the range of psychology of the Fenn community. I particularly liked this observation of Alan’s: “Freud coined the term repetition compulsion to describe an unconscious tendency to endlessly relive and repeat undesirable events and outcomes. The loss of a solve can constitute a curiously difficult ego insult, even personal crisis. Some searchers may refuse to relinquish a failed solve for years at a time.”

    Additional commentary on confidence was also quite interesting: “A sizable percentage of the chase sample (21.9%) believe that the odds of their success is 90% or greater. These estimates of eventual success were higher than those found in a prior survey earlier this year (Younis 2019). Most all respondents in the upper ends of these distributions seem destined to bitter disappointment given their exuberance.”

    I did find a few errors/typos in Alan’s paper:

    Page 2: the chest is 10″ x 10″ x 6″, not 5″.
    Page 2: typo on Nicolai Fechin’s name.
    Page 2: missing word on the Leon Gaspard book: The Call of Distant *Places*
    Page 2: “Fenn’s beloved father contracted terminal cancer at age 57 in 1987” — clearly something wrong here as that would make his birth year the same as Forrest’s!
    Page 5: Gadi Schwartz’s name is misspelled.

    • Zap, are you aware of one of his comments in the report,” He, (Forrest Fenn), has warned searchers to avoid – long distances (more than a mile)”?
      I’ve never heard f state that warning, do you have it in any notes? Loco?

      • Hi Poisonivey: yes, I noted the reference to long distances and Alan’s parenthetical remark of over a mile. That specific distance limit is not something that Forrest has ever said to my knowledge. There is the relevant Mysterious Writings quote that pdenver posted, but “long distances” isn’t defined. Also “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” https://dalneitzel.com/2016/02/03/on-searching/#comment-121303

        And finally, in response to Ron asking Forrest if he “would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car,” Forrest replied, in part, “…I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is ‘scant.'”
        Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-talking-in-circles/

        So we don’t know how short the one-way distance is from car to hidey spot, but there are reasonable limits that can be placed on the maximum distance. For instance, Forrest didn’t walk a total of 16 miles, so the one-way distance is therefore less than 4 miles. I’m confident he didn’t even walk 10 miles. I’m also confident he walked more than a couple hundred feet, one-way, from his car, since otherwise there would be no need for the added risk of two trips.

        • A common definition of few is “Being more than one but indefinitely small in number”. So less than a few could be interpreted as one or less if you use that definition. There are other definitions of few and since I don’t know Forrest’s intended meaning, I wouldn’t interpret it that rigidly. If my reading of the poem led me to walk up to two miles one way I wouldn’t let “less than a few miles” discourage me. Longer distances than that would make me rethink things.

        • Thanks Zap. Just trying to confirm because I don’t really remember anything of an actual distance either. Thanks Pdenver, was just worried that I may have missed a comment of a distance at some time, appreciate the link.
          We all have our distances, I have quite the walk, (which is the one part of my solve I don’t like), but that is what the poem gave me. I think he has defined what he means by “few”, but that is for some other write up. My concern was that if f actually did say the comment of a mile, then I could be more relieved by starting all over again, lol.
          I appreciate you all for the quick responses…

        • Zap,
          The quote: And finally, in response to Ron asking Forrest if he “would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car,” Forrest replied, in part, “…I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is ‘scant.’”

          Less than/few/scant these are disripters like short/limited/barely…. So I would go as far to say the distance is less than 1/3 of a mile one way. I have concluded that an 80 year old man with that much weight on his person only walked less than 2000 feet one way. So just over a mile for all 4 trips. That equals an afternoon in the mountain terrain. All IMO

        • Hi Zap
          In the TTotC book page 133 you said the blurred map
          is of New Mexico,how did you come up with that

          • Clint-
            The source of that map has been documented and talked about on this blog and other sites for at least eight years.

    • I question just how reliable his conclusions are. “These … findings estimated that up to two million adult Americans are involved at some level in the chase”. His statistical rationale for this estimate seems thin.

      Other statistics have such a large range of values, what’s the point of presenting them; might as well just guess.

      And of course other, more detailed, statistics are presented in such a convoluted smokescreen of academic jargon it would take the reader a long time to actually arrive at just how valid his conclusions are.

      But he certainly comes across as a certified academician.

      “binary unreinforced contingency”.
      “bivariate correlation coefficient”

      He writes like almost all academics write; it’s called the protective vocabulary, used to protect those who work in academia. They use rarefied, many-syllabled words and hieroglyphic symbols, a veritable vocabulary wall that keeps out the uninitiated. You are supposed to be >>> impressed.

      Does anyone really think that his “end game” is justifiable knowledge? Or is he just trying to affect his academic peers … (heeheehee)

      Further, the entire paper conveys an undercurrent of skepticism about searchers and the chase. And I would suggest that this is a reflection of academic bias against any pursuit or behavior that does not conform to clinical expectations.

      I never will forget the haughty Native American tribal VIP archeologist who said in a Fenn video years ago that … “that chest will never be found, because it doesn’t exist”, or words to that effect. He threatened to confiscate searcher’s car if it ever appeared on tribal land. “You know who gets to keep [that] car”, he smirked with great satisfaction? “I do”.

      So, I’m not too keen on academics injecting themselves into this treasure hunt. Go study the mating habits of sea horses, and take your protective vocabulary with you. 🙂

      Ken (in Texas)

      • As someone that works with data I can say that data can be manipulated to support various messages that one would like to convey. That is the case here as well. While there may have been a couple of million exposed to the chase, I’d be willing to be that the number of active searchers is a small fraction of that.

      • LMAO, Ken, very well said. I kind of like the article, but really says nothing. If searchers want to sound smart, why not let them. Sooner or later, another searcher, (like yourself), will come out and speak some truth while getting a few licks into the ‘know-it-all’. Which in turn, makes the community laugh.
        I think Aaron is a “quality” person, he may be more intuitive to the “statistics” side of the chase. Pyscho-analyst or whatever, I think f relishes in the fact that people will overthink the whole thing. If a academic thinks they have a one-up, let them, I think they are actually at a disadvantage, because the smart me has no idea where the chest or a poem solve is. It is the not so smart me that seems to figure things out, chase related. Good post Ken…

        • I tend to agree, and remember the Old saying

          “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance,
          baffle ’em with bullsh**.”

          Ermagerd . . . did I just discover a good use for “it”? I used to
          think that I had only one * in this hunt. I may have been wrong.

          As always, this entire message is part of MY opinion. You don’t have to get on bored.

        • Well guess what? King’s scholarly article has made it to YouTube.

          Yes, now anyone can read the entire article at YouTube for just $39.95.

          I like Dal’s price here a lot better.

          But at least we now know the real motivation for “scholarly” research. (heeheehee).

          Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  27. I can definitely identify with “eccentric” and a few of the other personality disorders mentioned. I’m a functioning Fennaholic and keep my obsession “in the closet” for the most part. I got tired of hearing the eyes roll haha.

      • Oh, that eye roll, lol! You described the reaction perfectly Sally! That, or eyebrows sllightly lifted and the comment, “Really? Wow, that’s…interesting…well, good luck.” So I don’t mention it to many people. Gotta love my husband though. At least he humors next and takes a genuine interest in what I’m doing and what I tell him I’ve learned or figured out so far, though I’m fairly sure he doesn’t really think I stand a chance of finding the treasure if indeed (in what I’m assuming is his opinion) it really exists. I’m definitely a full-fledged Fennaholic too and am definitely in need of Fennaholics meetings and probably an intervention, lol! Especially since I can’t go for more than a day researching, re-reading FF’s books, following blogs and forums or zooming in on my possible treasure site on Google Earth (I even do it at work and pray I don’t get caught!). And I find myself routinely staying up until 3 I the morning to indulge ( sorry I couldn’t resist the pun) in my addiction. Help me somebody!

  28. I don’t have a problem at all (takes a large bite of Brown Bread). I’m completely under control (washes down the brown bread with some warm water). No mental problems here. (begins to play with a paddle ball).

    • It was the thrill,. Just couldn’t stop chasing.
      Got to be to far to walk, started driving, then paddling, wading.
      Should of known to put in below the home of, but kept going…

    • Lol! No I haven’t got a problem either, Sparrow! After all, whose business is it of anyone’s if I suddenly want to dress only in Brown (except when testing the halted waters of my hot tub to see if they are high enough). Or if I suddenly have started dreaming about hauling heavy loads through a Forrest blaze, even though I meekly admit in real life I’m not brave enough? Do you think they will object if I play paddle ball in Fenn addiction rehab?

    • Yep, I know exactly what ya mean Sparrow (strokes my fav brown teddy bear whilst distantly staring out the nearest barred window) given that we’re all sane, normal folks here just lookin’ for a modicum of adventure after all (draws tepid water into my custom made Santa Fe shaped bath-tub)

      i mean, no-one here is truly crazy in my honest opinion (flippantly deletes all my “urgent” unread cell-phone messages from several prominent and hugely expensive psycho-therapists)..and that’s a fact!!

      ..wait a minute ..did you just say you ate brown bread?! – tsk tsk!!

    • Dal – I listened to the first episode this morning. All in all, it was entertaining and well edited, but so far didn’t contain any information that was new to me and would guess to most people on this blog. He’s set his show up in the format of introducing the Chase to people who have never heard of it before. There’s also a fair amount of you talking in the first episode as well, but you sounded good! I’ll give the other episodes a listen.

      • “to people who have never heard it before.”
        Perhaps we should rewind and listen as a beginner.
        I was a child, once.

        • wwwamericana – Yep, nothing wrong with going back to the beginning and listening with fresh ears. Also, you omitted the word “of” when you quoted me above and I am now suing you for libel!

    • I thot is sounded like he leaned more towards conspiracy, called his sister the lawyer. Dale was on there and he doesn’t have a accent which was confusing for my brain. It’s my second and third podcast ever(two episodes).

    • In other news, Today I also got around to listening to that other podcast link you shared a few days ago: “Sinisterhood” Episode #67 (https://www.sinisterhood.com/67). Not much useful information in that one, but I found it entertaining. For any Chasers who are looking for another activity to help pass the time during the long cold, give this episode a listen and try to count how many facts about the Chase these people got completely wrong! There are more than a few! 🙂

        • Dal – LOL! I wasn’t counting myself, but that exceeded my expectations!

          I heard at least 7 or 8 and was talking to my car radio while driving yesterday saying things like “What?”, “That’s not true!”, and “You got that completely wrong!”

    • for episode one:

      the person doesn’t appear to have a sense of scale, as he mentions 4 deaths after 10 years as if the hunt were some how causing people to die in inordinate numbers… he appears to not realizing that around 9 people die in any given national park or forest every year from just… well being in the park or forest… doing what he claims he likes to do…. bop around hiking in mountains (and I think that number maybe low)

      His Sister the lawyer didn’t seem to do much research… ff has never claimed an “amount” the treasure is worth.. nor would he try, as the things in the chest have fully no way to value except to sell them.. she also mentions one of the criteria, (photos or witnesses of such chest) then fails to mention the photos nor the people (witnesses) actually seeing the chest…

      so she is using “hearsay evidence” about the “2 million” value as to form an opinion on the existence of a chest??? overlooking actual evidence…

      also using the “ff has been investigated” as some sort of evidence of possible “fake” is not very lawyerly, especially in light that ff was exonerated of any type of reason for being investigated in the first place…

      she also didn’t appear to put much effort into the time line, as she concluded that ff may have gone back to retrieve chest to pay bills???

      not that a person rich enough to hide a chest of gold doesn’t have several other millions to pay for such expenses as lawyers and such… geeze….

      all in all both the brother and sister seem to of not put much effort into deciding if the treasure is real or not… which appears to be the premise of episode one.

      all they had to do is listen to a MAJOR IN THE USAF for about 2 mins to get a feel for it, if anyone has any sense of being able to judge character… one comes away with a; heck that was easy to decide….

      but other than that… episode one is without any sense of what had happened 🙂 except for the assessment of the ‘community’ involved, which seemed fairly accurate.

      • Agreed Writis, the sister didn’t have a clue about FF’s statements regarding the contents, and that he did not place a value on it. I thought it was a bit absurd that she assumed he might have taking some of the treasure out because he might have needed to pay for legal fees and such. She has no idea of his net worth.

        Episode two was a bit odd too. The stuff about Vietnam, how it affected the country, and others won’t help us find the treasure chest. He doesn’t trust FF because he thinks that FF seems to be in love with himself. I don’t know what liking or loving yourself has anything to do with being trustworthy. In fact I find people more trustworthy if they have some level of self confidence. At least the podcaster admits he is a skeptical person.

  29. Obsession …… Well if it wasn’t for all my research to find connections, then finding connections to those connections and so on, then chasing all those connections into rabbit holes, I wouldn’t have a obsession.
    But one thing I have found out is when I first started this chase in Feb 11, is that I did come across something in those connections that would help me in understand the poem itself. Of course I didn’t know it then because my clue chasing was more “out of the box” then in it, which lead to some great adventures.

    Now I’m continent in my understanding of the poem clues and where they have lead me. Only issues I seem to have is travel time to get back out to that special place in Rockies, and what the h—l is the blaze???

    So am I “Obsessed” with this chase??- dang right I am. ( Insert Acme – Woody Woodpecker sound.)

      • Sharpsburg,
        I’ve used my imagination to get as far as I have gotten in the chase so far, along with a few facts. Do I need more imagination to find the true meaning of Forrest blaze?
        I’ve been told the answer lies in the poem. Wish I understood that more.


    • Hi frensy I’m not new to the chase but reletively new to commenting. it a bit scary at first, well was for me any way I have sad (social anxiety disorder) so welcome. I think your right but the first is just as important as the last. Because if you don’t know where to start how can you know where to end. Good luck. Jay

        • In my opinion, and if I read you correctly, then you may have the last clue figured out- or at least the first clue- and the last, first.

        • poisonivy –

          “What we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from.”

          – T. S. Eliot

          • lol, Lisa, very good. My solve tells me the end point before the start point. The poem gives me the end spot, reverse engineer to find the start, or WWWH.
            In a sense, “The end is where we start from”.
            Lol, very nice Lisa……Very very nice.:)

    • Hi Frenzy,

      I am also new to the scrapbook discussions. With so many opinions, it’s very hard to discern between the good and the bad. Was hoping you may share your thoughts on the last clue.

  30. “take it in”” does take it in have a usage in boating. I know of a usage with sewing.
    I wonder if take it in the canyon down could be descriptive in more than one way?
    Sloane books really help for figuring words and litteracys.

    • Brian, That’s my interpretation of the clue, you are in the River not above it in anyway. The clue is a boating term, through the canyon, since you are dealing with water in clue number one. Then when you ” put in” you are actually taking out of the river. That’s the place you actually go BOTG and looking. In my expert opinion. 🙂

      • Just remember you don’t have to kayak down the river, only in theory because there’s a road you can take to get to your BOTG. Good luck. IMO

        • That’s such a Nice area Lisa! I believe Forrest Loves that area more than any place in N.M. but IMO there’s another place close by that Forrest loves more… Maybe we will meet in WY. Best of luck!

  31. Hey Dal, I was reading the 200-500 foot club list again (https://tinyurl.com/tz4u8to ) from Alan King and I just had to ask, have you cross-checked your notes from 2011-2012 with those comments? Based on your adventures section you were looking into north NM from Taos to Eagles Nest more than any other place at that time. You also searched in Yellowstone a few times. If I had to bet on who has been within 500 ft, you will be the safe bet (statistically speaking). https://dalneitzel.com/my-adventures/

    That was really early in the Chase, there was zero scrapbooks in 2011-2012 and no TFTW, OUAW or any other books and hardly any interviews. After all this time, I think that those who correctly solved the first 2 clues and emailed ff about it, didn’t know they had.

    • The numbers 200 and 500 were around long before searchers. Although people have been withing 200 and 500 feet of the treasure (at some point of the treasures existence), it is merely word play from the artist Mr Fenn.

      Free Thinker!

    • OZ-
      EVERYBODY who was searching back then and who was in communication with Forrest suspected they were in that 200ft club. Some had absolute confidence that they were THE searchers and the one place they looked was THE place.

      Others of us were less confident. By the time Forrest made those remarks I had a couple of dozen searches in various locations in five states under my belt and ten thousand miles of roads driven while heading to or from those search locations.

      There is no way I would have ever known which place I searched or driven past would have made me a member of that club. I just did too much searching in to many locations and too much driving past to many Smokey Bear signs for Forrest’s remarks to provide me with any pinpoint information.

      I have no idea if I was one of the searchers he was talking about, but even if I was I could never begin to guess which spot I was in that was close…I was everywhere…and Forrest knew that…

      I always suspected he said that just to drive me crazy…but I suspect I’ll never know…

      Anyway, I’ve come to learn that everything someone says is not about me…Imagine That!!!

      • Well Dal, as bad as I hate to, I’ll stir the pot a little>

        ‘Rooster Cogburn’, a member of Harry’s, posted an email which they had sent to Forrest about the 200 footer. Forrest’s reply was :

        “It is totally out of control Rooster. The 200′ horse is dead and has been dead for a few years. It is time to bury it. f”

        I have no reason to doubt Rooster’s veracity concerning the email, so I’ve tried to ascertain Forrest’s meaning.

        Seems to me it’s one of two things ( or mebbe both?):

        1. Forrest is tired of hearing about it
        2. Ya might oughtta be glad you ain’t the two hundred footer

        RIP 200 footer……….loco 🙂

        • If I may, the comment ( if written by Forrest) is made with sarcasm, in other words, How many times are you going to beat a dead horse? At some point you have to bury the thing. In other words, how many @&#$*+ times do you want me too answer that same question, Get it…
          The best hint he gave relating to that question is on Jenny’s Q&A, look it up…. In my most humble O-pine-yun

        • for the 500′, most likely anyone who has made more than 50 boots on the ground in 4 states has unknowingly, (email forrest or not) been a member of that group. imo

          but as far as the 200′, I believe Cynthia shed light on that, I can not remember the exact words she used. after an off hand conversation with ff, but basically it was One person, (with a possible group of 1 or 2 or so people with that one person)

          that One person was an acquaintance of forrest from back in the day, who “knew forrest better than he thought” )

          and went searching only once.. The person is “rich” and does not need the treasure. (this is all from memory of what Cynthia related that ff said to her)

          so in conclusion, the 200′ person is not a searcher, so no one who is searching is a member of the 200′ club, as this person knew forrest from before the search began…

          and to add to this, imo, since the person is probably near the same age as ff, or even older, there is a possibility that this person has since died. and why ff felt comfortable relating the story of the 200′ person. as if this person has not since died, and heard the same story that Cynthia related. They would immediately know that they are that person…

          in conclusion, imo, not a single searcher in the searching community is in the 200′ club.

          • this probably also let to the fictional character of “lead searcher”, so we can also put that horse to bed too. as “ff” also said there is no such thing as a “lead searcher”…

          • Two hundred feet whilst driving by, 500 ft casually walking from sedan(awesome red treasure wagon).

          • Writis;

            While anything is possible – I have been an avid searcher for over 4 years, and have never heard of the story that you presented. Maybe Cynthia or Zap can verify. Otherwise, I put it in the not-verified, useless story bin – JMO – JDA

          • Hi JDA, I did not mark it as a bookmark, I am sure Zap or someone else did.

            however it still would have to go in the “not-verified” story camp either way, as it is from Cynthia and not from ff, although I, like many people, consider Cynthia a reliable source.

          • Hi Writis,
            I remember this story (most likely that it is from Cynthia blog). She usually shares such information if she got it directly from Forrest. For some searchers this information can be very valuable i.e. equal to a hint. If this guy was at 200 feet distance from TC he definitely solved the poem up to 7-8 clues. Just couldn’t crack the blaze (IMO). Maybe this search was just fun for him and if he found TC he just wanted open TC take photos. send them to Forrest. Then put TC back and send photos to Forrest (with joke like that now 2 people know the secret and both of them are alive).

          • I got curious and looked on her blog and found a reference to the discussion, she has since taken out what she had given as ff musings, since they were second hand. but the name of the blog post is “Only one searcher has been within 200 feet… EDITED”, also in the comments she says:

            “Because Dal searched many many times over the course of 8 years. Forrest said the 200-footer only searched once… and was RICH!”

            so there is the source for “one searcher”, for “Rich”, and for “only one time”, I am absolutely positive she (or someone in the discussion with kpro (possibly kpro)) also said that the person was an acquaintance of ff from before the search, and that ff said something to the effect, (apparently this person knew me (ff) better than I thought) possibly (better than “he” thought)

            here is the link: http://www.chasingfennstreasure.com/blog/only-one-searcher-has-been-within-200-feet

            imo it is not any person that she listed in the short list, it is a person that is unknown, since it is just an “acquaintance” of ff.

            also the confusion with more than one person, and “one person”, has to do with the “one person”, possibly had 1 or 2 or so people with him, and that ff does not know for sure on that, so he says “group” of people…

          • loco,

            Thank you! Where is Bowmarc? Are you reading this? Check out the link loco provided! Semantics!!!! Thanks again loco!


          • Regardless of whether anyone is “in the lead” compared to
            other searchers, I think several people, while BOTG
            searching, have gotten within 200 feet of the TC.
            Yeah, I know talk is cheap. But there’s too much snow
            on the ground for another search hike right now, up the
            same (real) creek again, but not as far as the blaze.
            Did I really say that? All IMO.

          • from my post above: “imo … this person has since died. and why ff felt comfortable relating the story of the 200′ person. as if this person has not since died ..etc..”

            after thinking about this some more, I do not see any other way that ff would feel comfortable ( at the end of 2018) in relating that story in such detail..

            maybe another possibility: if this person is now in direct contact, and has an agreement of some sort.. but that seems far fetched to me..

            any other possibilities besides the person has since passed?

            for sure if that person heard that story as related in 2018, they would know it was them, and since it was one search and they went in what ever it was 2012 or 2013, they would know exactly where they were too.

            (find this person find the treasure)

            indeed… ff probably had a little smile going if he did say that to kpro…

        • Thanks loco but the dead horses keep piling up faster than they can be burried…

          Dal, I’m sure you are right on all of that. His very first post about the subject on September 26th, 2012 right here on this site, he wrote ‘several months ago’ and understanding his definition of several I’m deducting that he meant between Spring and July 2012. I wasn’t involved in the chase back then but we know the amount of botgs was a fraction of what it is today. So checking notes on the 2012 search season and maybe trying to make new connections to the places visited could spark something. Unfortunately, and to my second point, it seems like those who were at the starting location or within 500 feet didn’t have the confidence needed to know they had it right.

          • Btw, I mean at least those who were active that year and still around should go back and check their notes not just you of course… I know not everybody posted their botgs, you on the other hand posted a lot of your searches here and that became like a frame of reference.

      • I was always curious about the 200/500 foot scenario, and a few questions come to mind as I think this over.

        1. In the quotes I’ve read, it seems like Forrest makes a very clear distinction between people who have solved the first two clues and people who have come within 500 feet. It does not appear that these are the same people at all.

        2. If #1 is true, then are the people who have been mentioned as solving the first 2 clues or the first 4 clues within 200 feet of the treasure? When they solve the first two clues and walk on right by the treasure are they within 200 feet? Or are the 200 foot solvers different than the ones who have walked right by the rest of the clues?

        3. My interest in this has to do with clue #2 and clue #4. If the 200 foot people are the ones who walked right by the treasure, or the ones who may have solved the first 4 clues, does that mean clues 1-4 are within 200 feet of the treasure? How can that be with out some kind of switching back or going in a loop?

        4. Even if the people who solved 1-4 are also the 500 foot people, I still can’t reconcile how any of the first clues could be so close to the treasure. Does this mean the blaze is very close to WWWH? Or to HOB?

        5. Not sure how clear the above is, but to sum up, if a searcher gets to within 200 or even 500 feet of the treasure by solving any of the first 4 clues, what kind of inferences can we make from that? Given the nature of the final spot, would this eliminate any kind of WWWH that is close to a heavily trafficked road? 200 feet off a busy road seems a bit too close.

        6. One final thought about the relationship between the first clues and feet from the treasure. If you can nail down WWWH-4 then is it even necessary to solve the rest of the clues? You could draw a 500 foot circle around each of the first 4 clues and see if the 9th clue can be identified from there.

        Ok I think that’s enough for now. I have really enjoyed reading everyone’s posts for the last few months as I immerse myself in this puzzle. A note, this is my first post so please be gentle! Look forward to hearing any thoughts 🙂

        • Zap,
          Maybe you leave your friend or buddy in the car because only one person can fit into the spot?

        • surf-
          Me too. I always wonder where they were standing when they were 200ft from the chest.

          1&2. It seems to me (without looking it up) that the first statement about folks who were close was much earlier than the first statement about folks solving the first two clues. So in my head they were always different folks…

          But when he said that the folks who solved the first two clues went right by the other seven… I assumed that meant they were very close to the other seven as they went past them but did not actually recognize the other seven. So…if they moved past them but didn’t know it they could have been within 200ft of all the clues…and that would mean they too were within 200ft of the hidey spot (in my opinion). But that doesn’t mean they were the same folks who he first told us were within 200ft of the chest. I have no way of knowing and since I have no way of knowing I can’t apply your logic in #3-4-5-6.

          Your concern reminds me of a line Forrest once used to describe the thinking that some searchers use:
          “You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f”


          • Hi Dal: that bear can be white, brown or black since Forrest altered the riddle from its original form (in which the answer was white).

          • Dal and Surf,

            I thank Dal for his thoughts on the FF quotes. As everyone well knows by now, I am fairly clueless about what exactly FF said and just when he said it! So thanks to the vets who have kept track for all these years!

            Quickly I wan to address some of Surf’s post.

            I believe the answers to your latter questions (like 5 & 6) will likely come depending on the search area you are choosing. I imagine, you would like to be able to use the answers to your questions to optimize a likely area to search. That is certainly not a bad idea. However, I also imagine those who were close or managed to solve the first some odd clues weren’t so aware of their progress. It’s a lot like giving 100 people a standard test, and after so many of them have turned in their tests, the administrator telling the remaining test takers someone was close! Not very helpful to either group really,

            I have wrestled with the size of the area covered by the actual physical Chase. I agree with Dal. I would also posit that your conjectures are likely possible. Can we be within 200-500 feet of the chest at WWWH? Maybe. That would certainly make for a much easier rest of the Chase. Do we need to get to 3 or 4 before we are that close? It’s possible.

            There is an old game called Warmer/Colder (or Hot/Cold) where someone in a crowd is picked to be isolated from the rest while the remaining persons pick an object for the isolated person to find. The isolated person is brought back and the crowd starts singing a song that repeats. The returned person is to look for the object and when they get closer the singing gets louder. When they get further away the singing softens. This charade goes on until the object is found.

            I mention that game here because we are all looking for that elusive object, only there is no one singing louder or softer to let us know if we are getting warmer or colder in the search. A single note about a searcher or two after the search was concluded is not very helpful in this game. That would be like the crowd shouting loudly once the closest searcher has already gone home!

            How nice it would be to know who was so close and when. I think about the only thing we can take from any of it is that it isn’t far to the chest beyond clue 4! Oh and this: we can presumably walk right past clues 3-9! Though I am still wondering what exactly constitutes the nine clues!!!!

            Back to Dal…..

            You had posted elsewhere something about struggling with WWWH and heavy loads and water high. I wanted to comment on that earlier but I have lost track of that post. So I wish to do so here.

            I believe the hardest struggle is pinpointing WWWH. While I was introduced to he Chase by way of the HOB thread, I have a fairly good sense of what I think most of the rest of the poem may/could mean. But none of that much matters if I don’t know where to start.

            So I started investigating which map to use or how to connect the poem directly to a map. Which words would help most in that endeavor and so forth and so on. I had been led to two general areas multiple times for various reasons wholly related to everything but WWWH. That frustrated me. So I focused on WWWH instead.

            I have settled on a third area of interest that I was introduced to by focusing on WWWH. While I cannot disclose this WWWH at this time (for confidentiality purposes) I will suggest an exercise that helped me. All I did was consider what the words WWWH could mean. Now I don’t mean just any old combination of possibilities, of which there are many. But rather, I mean what are they likely to realistically mean in terms of going on a treasure hunt.

            This method has led me to a solitary answer (as of this posting) and so far a promising lead. And while I don’t know whether or not it is correct, it seems to me to be the most plausible.

            Okay, now for heavy loads and water high…..

            I think that will depend on where the rest of the poem takes you. When I wrestled with connecting the poem to a map I think I cleared up something else that was hindering me. Initially I was fairly focused on connecting the poem to place names. Such a method is a dime a dozen in the Rockies. Just about everywhere you turn, there is a group of named places that could easily fit relatable words in the poem.

            I have since, and easily so, abandoned such an approach. Instead, I have focused on what the words in the poem are trying to tell me about the Chase as opposed to where the Chase is to take place. My relatively new and promising WWWH can only take me so far in the poem before BOTG are needed to figure out the rest. Heavy loads and water high fall into that portion of the Chase in this particular instance. Otherwise, Dal, your guess is as good as mine.

            Okay, all is IMO!!!!


          • Hi Dal, Writis, JoJo and Ann,
            Thank you for the replies!

            This quote from TarryScant.com is what initially jammed me up:
            Q: Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?

            F: Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.

            Although the relationship is not explicitly stated, it would be easy to conflate 200 foot searchers with solving first two or possibly all of the first four clues. Otherwise wouldn’t Forrest say “some may have solved the first 5, 6 or 7 or 8 or 9?” I don’t know and I agree with Dal that there is really no way to know exactly where in the process these folks were 200 feet away from the treasure. But I think there could be value in playing around with possibilities at your solve to take a look at the area 200 feet from your 1-4 OR ignoring the rest of the clues and see what happens when you keep going too far. How could that happen and a searcher pass within 200 feet away? I can’t seem to shake the idea.

            There is another quote from a conversation with Julius Brighton (and Dal) that seems to support this conflation:

            Fenn: There have been a few people within 500 hundred feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.

            The last quote almost sounds like he’s talking about the 200 footers, and then explaining exactly what happened. They were within a few hundred feet then instead of getting closer by going towards clues 3 and 4 they kept going. It really sounds like you’re within 200 feet of the treasure once you’re at the second clue. How that could be possible is hard for me to comprehend.

            Writis – from these quotes, it seems a reasonable conclusion that the 200 footers are likely ones who have solved some of the clues – but that leaves the 500 footers. I know it has been speculated that they are people who are in the area of the treasure because of a landmark or some other reason. It’s almost as if they are in the area without solving any of the clues – but how are they getting so close? More importantly to me, does this give us a clue as to the geography of the area around the treasure? In my opinion it may be a very big clue. Forrest said there is one way to get to the treasure – but, and this is a big but, there may be many ways to get within 500′ as the crow flies at different points around the treasure without being able to retrieve the treasure (because you have not followed the clues). If you see where I’m going with this, it could be a very big confirming hint if you have a correct solve.

            Ann, thank you for your reply – I don’t know if this is unique, but I landed in my area before I had solved any clues. I only have 1 and 2 solved so far (very recent) and am really wanting to confirm WWWH as much as I can before I spend more time deciphering the next clues otherwise it’s a great waste of time. I like your analogy of the hot/cold game. I feel like Forrest is singing louder when we get close, but unfortunately it’s in code.

            JoJo, I have read your posts in the past and am always intrigued. I tend to gravitate towards searchers who post with such confidence in their solve and describe in such detail. I’m very curious when you say your ninth clue is within 500 feet of WWWH. As for your hint regarding the word that is key – I have found a word that is key that I can’t unsee – it is so specific that it is hard to imagine it is not “the” word that is key. This is how I found what I currently think is WWWH. The word that is key put me in the area and soon everything clicked. I am curious about the method that you say has been posted to figure out clue nine – I have done a lot of reading but not sure I have come across or know what you’re referring to. Maybe I just wasn’t paying attention because I have been focusing 90% of my energy on WWWH before moving with confidence to the next clues.

            As for the 200/500 foot info, I think it works best as a kind of confirming hint to one’s solve. If those statements don’t make any sense with your final solve, then you might be in the wrong place.

          • Surf, I’m confused by your statement – “It really sounds like you’re within 200 feet of the treasure once you’re at the second clue. How that could be possible is hard for me to comprehend.”

            Why is it hard to comprehend that the remaining 7 clues could be in a 200 foot path to the treasure?

        • Surfthesky, In my own solve the answer to your question 4 is this: HOB is in between WWWH’s and the blaze. And yes, the ninth clue is within 500 feet from WWWH’s. But that does not mean you can find it just by doing a foot search of that area. The way it’s hidden is very clever and there are many many many places within that area where you could hide somthing and it won’t be found within 100 years.

          I according to my solve I was at what I believe is the blaze and after not finding it where I thought it was, I took a long look around the area and was overwhelmed at the possibilities. “It could be anywhere here” I said to myself. To check every single inch of the blaze would take some time, not to mention the surrounding areas.

          When I got home my frustration was peaked and I was determined to figure out what I did wrong. I knew I was right about WWWH’s, but I won’t tell you how I know for sure. At any rate, I thought that one thing was referring to a particular spot and if I had been right about that one thing I’d have found it becasue everything I did from that point on was correct. However, once I realized the correct interpretation of that one thing I immediately was led to a very specific spot nearby. From there even if you don’t know what to do next, if you are paying attention you can still figure it out from there. Forrest did something really really cool at that spot. It’s ingenious in fact.

          But your best bet according to my solve and in my opinion is to focus on WWWH’s. That is the second most difficult part of this puzzle. There is another way though. If you have the key word thing figured out, then you can get clues 1-8. But the hardest part is figuring out clue 9. Many have come close and all who mention this method online have since given up on it. But they were all correct, they just didn’t get the whole thing. It’s extremely hard. Or to be more specific, it’s extremely time consuming. Once you know what Forrest did, then you have to start to work through it. It’s like a maze. There are many different paths to go down and ways to view it, but only one correct answer to each step. Yes, you read all that right. the final clue has many steps to it.

          You see, most people are viewing the puzzle incorrectly from the outset. They think it’s lines 5-16 in order. Figure out where each line is on a map and that leads you to it. And while that’s basically true, that’s not really the easiest way to solve it becasue there are probably thousands of places in the rockies that can fit with all of those lines.

          It’s not a guessing game. There is a very concrete way that Forrest has engineered into the poem that tells you what to do to solve it.

          Just my opinion on the matter. Good luck with your search.

        • surf, doesn’t your #1 thought, cancel out most all the rest anyway?

          assuming they are separate groups of people for the discussion, then the 500′ could be anywhere, not near the first two clues… isn’t that correct, or did I misinterpret.

          I understand the interpretation people make, if the two groups are the same people.

          for the record, i am a member of the 1000′ club
          (I always make it four times harder on my self) 🙂

          • I’m a member of the choas club. I’ll just stand on the box and admire the view in a confusing fashion.

        • Surfthesky, I’m responding to your response to my response to your post. LOL Anyway, You asked about three topics. 1) Ninth clue – method and within 500 ft? 2) Word that is key and 3) 200/500 ft issue

          I’ll take these one at a time, and remember this is all just my opinion and according to my solve. I could be wrong.

          1) When I say the ninth clue is within 500 feet of the thing you are searching for, what I mean is that the location that the ninth clue is referring you to is the exact spot where the thing you are looking for is hidden and yes, that according to my solve, is within 500 feet of WWWH’s.

          2) The word that is key: There are several words that are key. Some were given to us by Fenn verbally. And some are hints in the books. But the word that is key in the poem is a different word than these. In fact it is a string of words with each one leading you to the next until you get the point of it. But one word starts it. That’s why Fenn said of the word that is key in the poem, that you have to get all of them.

          But if that doesn’t fit your word that is key, don’t fret. It is quite possible that what you identified as the word that is key, is in fact part of the solution even if it isn’t the word that is key that Fenn was referring to. The poem is chock full of extra hints and references. It’s insane.

          I don’t know how Fenn was able to put this thing together in fact. You’d have to use a supercomputer to make all of this work in my opinion. When you go BOTG in a correct location, with a correcrt solve, your mind is blown at how the area and the locations in the real world fit into the clues. It’s as if Fenn went back in time and influenced how things would be named and so on, so that in the future his puzzle would work out.

          3) As for the 200 foot/500 foot comments: If someone was two feet from the spot, they were also within 200 feet of the spot. They were also within 500 feet of the spot. Fenn did not lie. He simply let you assume what you chose to assume. He does that a lot.

          But there is a slight hint in the statement. There is something in the area where you are led to that is exactly 200 feet from another inportant thing. And also one that is 200 feet from another important thing. These two numbers are funny when you are in the final steps of the search becasue of this. You look at the distance ruler on Google maps or Google Earth and look at how far from this to that around the area and you see these two distances. I assume Fenn said this on purpose, but it could have been coincidence.

          In my opinion:
          There is something else that will help you or any searcher about the chase that no one had mentioned before. I’m not going to tell you but I can hint a bit. This thing is designed to confuse you. It’s no accident that no one has gotten it in 10 years. There is a reason. Fenn has strongly hinted at this reason in a few of the scrapbooks. Fenn has shown you why in one of the books. The more hints Fenn gives the more confused the searcher will get. That is on purpose. His hints are not lies. They are all true. Your assumptions are confusing you. Each new hint will create a new assumption in your mind making it harder for you to solve. I;m saying everything I can to you about this without giving it away and so is Fenn. He’s screaming these things at you in the books, scrapbooks and verbal hints. He’s already shown you exactly where it is. Dozens of times. He keeps trying to devise new ways to show it to you. It’s awesome. I love Forrest Fenn. He is my hero. This thing is the single greatest puzzle ever devised as for as I know.

          I hope this helps instead of adding more confusion.

          • Thanks JoJo! A lot to unpack with your reply, thank you for sharing some of your methodology.

            I think I understand what you are saying about the last clue and WWWH. I am not far enough on my solve to compare, but I think it’s worth considering this relationship.

            For the word that is key – mine is extremely unique, and derived from the poem. Unless FF is using the poem to troll us (and I highly doubt this is the case), it is hard to unsee this word for me.

            I thought there was a quote somewhere that indicated the word that is key is not a poem word AND there are words in the poem that are more important than others. FF is tricky because he answers two part questions with two parts but it’s sometimes hard to tell which refers to which part!

            I will have to ponder your idea that there are a string of words in the poem – that is an interesting idea.

            As for the 200/500 feet comments, also interesting to hear your explanation of why this might be. I know people have talked about being something in the area that many people would visit. But maybe there is another explanation for the 500 footers? From the way FF talks about them, they are different than the 200 footers for more than distance reason. I have a theory, but can’t really test it out quite yet because I don’t know where the treasure is (yet)! haha

            All in my opinion and most likely wrong 🙂

            Thank you for keeping the synapses firing, lots of food for thought here.

        • @Surf – I’ve made the argument before that there is a real possibility that there is redundancy built into the clues. Clue 1 (WWWH) is where we conceptually start our TTOTC—It is both a beginning and an end to same and why nailing down WWWH is 100% necessary. One’s physical journey for TTOTC starts at clue #2 (the correct starting point), which FF has been careful and distinctive about mentioning in his ATF’s, as you seemingly noted in your question #1 above.

          The solve, then, looks like this:

          1 – 9 – 8 – 7 – 6 – 5 – 4 – 3 – 2

          Correctly ID clue 1, start at clue 2 to make your correct/precise approach to clue 1 using clues 3-9 as your guide to hone in on the treasure. No switching back involved. The clues are consecutive because clues 1 & 2 serve as each end of the journey (imaginatively thought of as FF’s Rainbow which he tells us about in the book immediately before giving us the poem), and all the rest of the clues join them together.

          Since you know 1 and start at 2, nothing precludes the information described in clues 3-9 from referring back to 1. Waters high, as many have speculated before, may be in reference to WWWH from earlier in the poem.

          • surfthesky;

            Bowmarc has an approach that is much different than most. Most read the poem from top to bottom. Clue #1 starts at stanza #2 – “Begin it WWWsH etc.” and then solve the clues consecutively 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and then 9.

            You will have to figure out what is best for you, but Forrest seems to support the 1 through 9 theory with his comments about the clues being consecutive.

            You will have to decide for yourself – JMO – JDA

          • Yes, JDA, we all have our own approaches to solving this thing. You yourself reorganize the stanzas of poem, if memory serves.

            The big ATF that always comes to into the debate about this solve method I proposed goes like this:

            “You should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure.”

            The solve proposed does exactly that—starts with the first clue and then follows the others, which are 2-9, to the treasure, by physically starting at 2 and following the rest in order right to clue 1.

            This proposed method maintains the importance of needing to nail down WWWH as the first clue because such is your destination but only with the precision of following the rest of the clues to it as FF intends.

            IMO of course.

        • surfthesky;

          I have two solves – a “Big Picture Solve” and a “Small Area Visual Solve.” In my “Big Picture Solve”, WWWsH and the Blaze are miles apart. In my “Small Area Visual Solve” the distance between my WWWsH and the blaze is less than 1 1/2 miles. The distance between my “No place for the meek” and all of the rest of the clues fit within a 500′ circle. The 200′ comes in to play regarding the distance from HL & WH and the place Indulgence rests. That is how it has worked out for me, but as of today, I do not have the chest… nor does anyone else. YOU will have to figure these things out for yourself, since none of us seems to be right so far- JMO – JDA

        • These are good questions surf. I’ll comment on 3. as it relates to an area I am looking at. You said:
          “3. My interest in this has to do with clue #2 and clue #4. If the 200 foot people are the ones who walked right by the treasure, or the ones who may have solved the first 4 clues, does that mean clues 1-4 are within 200 feet of the treasure? How can that be with out some kind of switching back or going in a loop?”

          In a spot I plan on searching it is possible to solve for WWWH and canyon down and park at the correct spot below home of Brown without actually solving for home of Brown. In my solution one doesn’t have to ever have to be at home of Brown, only below it, or south of it. A searcher could walk from the parking spot within 200 feet of the treasure, but then continue past it, and all of the clues. They could even easily continue further north past home of Brown. Remember, the home of Brown is not the clue, it is put in below home of Brown IMO.

    • Forrest has used the 200 feet and 500 feet to describe searcher proximity to the treasure for many years. Searchers frequently use these numbers to bolster their own confidence level. Some/many use these figures to plot out areas near what they believe are the first two clues as if it will prove or disprove whether they are on the correct path. Searcher failure has shown that these numbers[200/500] have not helped anyone discover/recover Fenn’s treasure.

        • Folks are incessantly clamoring for updates/info from Fenn in regards to potential searcher progress and he has obliged us with some tantalizing answers that seem to be interpreted quite differently by folks. Some believe he is always speaking directly to them specifically and from there it cascades broadly over cyberspace in the form of wild claims of having the winning solve all cinched up or having some inside edge on some aspect of what a clue or hint may be at the moment . Others seem content to just have Fenn say anything at all to keep things fresh and keep the Chase alive. Mostly MM, I think searchers have done a bang up job of misleading ourselves by not sticking with the best advice Fenn has given us… Poem, TTOTC, a good map and/or GE. It is fairly logical that the 200/500 info has not been a real game changer… yet.

          • Ken…Poem, book, a good map and maybe some abernominalations to ponder and give us something to talk about.

          • Great comment, Ken! I absolutely agree with you.

            Yes! Forrest does have the innate knack to elucidate precisely at the opportune time, and with precisely descriptive terms, that which is necessary to achieve the desired end result. I guess you can say he can look quickly down the road?

            July 26, 2018 – https://www.wired.com/story/forrest-fenn-treasure-online-mystery/ – Though Fenn occasionally stokes the frenzy with interviews, he regards online sleuthing as unnecessary. “There is no reason for anyone to use the internet or social media when going to search for the treasure,” Fenn told me. “All they need is a map, a plan, good health, and a buddy to go along for safety reasons.”

            keepin’ on keepin’ on……….loco

          • And yet, leave your buddy in the car when you get to your search spot?

            MW Weekly Words (10/7/2016): “*If you have a searching partner, best to have them wait in the car.f”


            It would ~seem~ to undercut Forrest’s frequent posts about searcher safety, but perhaps he is just writing something he wrote earlier, just in a different way:

            “And something I have not said before, if you are going into rough country it is probably best to leave your pets at home. f”

            Link: https://dalneitzel.com/2016/02/03/on-searching/#comment-121303

          • Perhaps it may be wise to exercise caution when poking or prodding the bee’s nest once too often… one may get more than a sting or two. Careful what you ask for…

          • Hi Ken: not really asking for anything as I have an interpretation that works for me. I bring up the seemingly contradictory ATF more for new searchers who may not be aware of it so that they might ponder what it could mean.

          • Zap… your efforts to catalog and share the massive database of Chase mumbo jumbo are always appreciated. My comment is/was very general in nature… and geared more towards those with unlimited face time with Fenn. Nothing negative intended at all. It is just apparent that many Fenn comments run the cycle from *dangerous intel*, to worn out rocking chair theories headed nowhere.

          • I agree Ken. The 200/500 info has not been useful, and as far as we know neither have the SB’s, TFTW book, and all of the other info released since the chase started. In fact much of it may have worked as deterrents keeping searchers from narrowing their focus on the poem, TTOTC, and a map.

    • Is he still REALLY indiana Jones if he doesn’t find the Fenn treasure.
      Doesn’t that make Fenn Indiana Jones so wouldn’t it be instead THE ADVENTURES OF NEW MEXICO FORREST or something?

    • Well my BIG imagination has taken off. Wouldn’t it be amusing if that were one of the surprises ff spoke about for this year. Now I’m just KIDDING, but a movie about Indiana Jones looking for the Forrest Fenn treasure would be a hoot! LOL! Art imitating life. Thanks for that chuckle to myself Ken.

  32. RE Rockwell,

    While I do not have a copy of the book, I did watch the link provided by Lisa way up above regarding Allen K’s presentation on the Rockwell similarities. I was wondering if anyone had put the chapters in order of corresponding chronological Rockwell order? Meaning according to the dates of the similar Rockwell works? And I also understand there is the matter of postmarks for each chapter but the dates are off. Is there a composed list of those available somewhere?

    As for his plane, this Rockwell Commander, I will leave that question alone for the moment.

    Has anyone ever searched Rockwell’s work to see if there is anything relatable to the nouns in the poem? Or phrases?

    Okay, lots of questions. Looking forward to any and all responses.


    • Hi Ann,.
      I would venture to say, that the only connection between Rockwell and the poem would be in his name. It describes the resting spot for indulgence IMO and possibly WWWH depending on your definition. It won’t lead to as specific area IMO so it’s just a bunch of noise after that…the postage stamps are significant IMO. I would go to library and look for TTOTC or buy it.. Best of luck!

    • from Ann: “Has anyone ever searched Rockwell’s work to see if there is anything relatable to the nouns in the poem? Or phrases?”

      not only will you find numerous “relations”, one can do the same with just about any painting or book.. and many searchers have done just that with many different things, including scrapbooks, That is the obstacle .. it is more a ‘infectious disease’ rather than the ‘cure/key/ or decipher’

      • Writis,

        Oh no! I am not asking because I think it can be used for the Chase. I like interesting connects and was just curious. While I am sure many relations can be made between various books and works of art, it would be quite another to write a poem completely from titles of works of art all by the same artist. Not all questions I pose are geared toward solving the Chase! Keep that in mind future readers of my posts! Sometimes it’s just about the exchange of ideas or information. Curiosity if you will. All IMO.


  33. Why is it that so much attention is paid to the idea that the Scrapbooks contain hints or clues but no one seems to feel the same about his other blog writings such as Aberrations, Vignettes, Treasures Bold. Speed Bumps, Passages or Snapshots…?

    If I were a clue digger I’d certainly be interested in everything he writes…
    Take this one from Speed Bumps for instance…
    or is that just another Rabbit Creek hole?

    • I thought vinigers meant something else! Won’t explain, as the IQ in the room might go down. Now we know, thanks Dal.

    • because only the finder can see the hints and clues in all. One just needs to know what they are looking at.

    • Dal,

      Great question!!!! I myself haven’t spent enough time digging through all the archives you have here! There is much more to read than I currently have time to read! But your question is well placed. I was under the impression that only the book contained subtle hints, emphasis on subtle for me.

      I am wondering if you personally believe there are actual hints contained within his other writings, or whether attentive searchers might not be able to ascertain something more about the man, and yes perhaps the Chase, not from literal hints, but rather from learning a bit more about FF himself and his thoughts, post treasure hunt release, regarding the Chase. In other words, instead of a “listen up folks, here’s another hint” take away, it’d be more like “hey folks, what do you have for me this time? I’ll see what I can answer within reason and you can make of it what you will, but don’t ask me just read the poem and the book in order to find the chest.”

      Also, whatever your answer to that paragraph above, which sorts of writings have you found most helpful over the years in terms of looking at the poem as FF sees it? I don’t mean which works do you think hold key clues. I mean which sorts of writings do you find most insightful in terms of how FF might think or feel.

      I ask because FF seems like quite the story teller to me and I have fond story tellers tend to tell one of two types of stories. Either they tell a story relevant or relatable to a conversation being had, or they tell a story not only significant to them, but one they are compelled to share with others. It’s the compulsion or relevance I would be interested in in the case of the Chase! But as a listener of many a story teller, sometimes it’s just interesting to hear a good story!

      Okay, I think I’ve said enough for now! Looking forward to your reply!

      All IMO.


    • Dal – How do you decide what category Forrest’s posts fall into? When he emails you a new one does he say “this one’s a vignette” and “this one’s a scrapbook”?

      • We talked it over. First we decided that something he wrote really didn’t fall into the Scrapbook category…Then we talked about it and decided on a new category name. Then Forrest wrote several more for that category…
        Then he stopped and went back to Scrapbooks for awhile…
        Then there was another one that didn’t fit the Scrapbook mold…but also didn’t’t fit the other category…so we invented a new category by talking it over…and Forrest wrote more just for that category…and on…and on…

        • Thanks, Dal. I’ve always wondered about that (just in a general curious manner; not looking for hidden hints and the like), but it’s good to know that you and Forrest collaborated on how to categorize his posts on your blog.

          It’s also interesting that the book “Once Upon a While” is a combination of scrapbooks, vignettes, and passages all mixed up together and seems to work fine as a combined work.

    • Agreed Dal, if f said it, or drew it, or whatever, if he spent the time to get something out there chase related, then best to look into it. I think all the excess info is just confidence builders, and that’s it. May help with clues, but everyone doesn’t have the same solve, everyone sees hints and clues, that should tell you something. Searchers will make anything work for their own solves. We are all guilty of it. Of course, IMO, it is better to put the time into the poem instead.

    • Over-saturation of information without any conformation of any of it being useful. How do we know that the amount of time spent on all of these other things wouldn’t be better served thinking about the poem and reading TTOTC over and over again. That was the prescribed formula was it not? Since when were we told the finder would be one that read a bunch of SB’s , Aberrations, Vignettes, Treasures Bold. Speed Bumps, Passages or Snapshots, and read the poem and TTOTC?

  34. Upthread, Dal wrote:
    “But when he [Forrest] said that the folks who solved the first two clues went right by the other seven [clues]… I assumed that meant they were very close to the other seven as they went past them but did not actually recognize the other seven.”

    Could someone please show me the Forrest Fenn quote that uses the phrase >>> “other seven [clues]”.

    At Tarry Scant website I could not find any such quote from Forrest referring to “other seven [clues]” or remaining seven clues, or words to that effect. Thanks. 🙂

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Thanks much poisonivy! Exactly what I was looking for. 🙂

      But is that it? No other quotes from Forrest about “… right past the other seven”?

      He says: ““Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven … ”

      First, the first two clues were “mentioned … in an email …”.

      In other words, those searchers were not necessarily AT wwwh. The email could have been sent from their home, a thousand miles away.

      Second, they “WENT” right past the other seven. Nothing about … walking past the remaining seven. Even if they were in the field, they could have been “driving” past the other seven.

      Third, ” … right past …”. Well, does that mean they went past while they were in the field? Or, does that mean that while scanning the poem, they simply skipped past the other clues, and did not mention them in their email?

      Fourth, there is nothing in that Forrest quote to suggest, imply, or conclude that those searchers were within ~ 500 feet or 200 feet.

      You see what we have here? I fear that some searchers, not all of course, have taken that one quote and jumped to conclusions.

      From that one quote, some searchers seem to leap to the conclusion that the searchers were AT wwwh, and then as they found the second clue, they WALKED past the remaining seven.

      Maybe someone will post another FF quote that clarifies his inconclusive quote above, and therefore justifies searcher conclusions that searcher must walk from wwwh to the chest.

      Of course if someone does provide such a quote, they’re going to have to reconcile that quote with explicit poem instruction that it’s “too far to walk”.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • Hey Ken, I hear what you are saying and all this talk about 200/500 foot searchers could be too vague to be helpful. I posted farther up the thread why I thought this could be helpful – more as confirming hints than as basis for a solve.

        But still, I can’t quite shake that there could be something a little more telling in this quote from Fenn (posted in whole up above):
        FF: I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.

        Sure, might not be walking, could be driving past the other clues and that could be when they “go right past the treasure chest.”

        But still, I find it very interesting that they “figure the first two clues” and get within several hundred feet. Even if that means they pass it while driving down the canyon looking for the wrong HOB. They are still very close after only two clues and that bugs me lol 🙂

        • surf: “Sure, might not be walking, could be driving past the other clues and that could be when they “go right past the treasure chest.”

          would you want to sit next to a tree to take in your last sunrise (or sunset) and this tree is only a couple hundred feet from some place a car can drive by?

          does anyone really picture ff doing that? especially the quotes about him liking to go off trail rather than staying on the trail…

          200′ off trail? … it is like saying one likes to sail… but only on cruise ships….

      • @Ken (in Texas):

        If you use “500” as your search word over on TarryScant, there are more references to what you are looking for.

        Perhaps this one (if the link works) sums up the issue?


        If the link doesn’t work, the quote by FF is from 5/20/2015 in a video by Julius Brighton. The quote starts around the 6:25 mark.

        Hope that helps.

      • Ken,
        I have this one:
        The Lure Post screening Q&A, 5/18/2017, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuv5SXfajL8
        “That 200 ft is pretty accurate. But there weren’t many people within 200 hun…lots of people were within 500 feet of the treasure. But the people that were within 200 ft DIDN’T KNOW that they were that close to the treasure and they walked right by.”
        This doesn’t incorporate the “remaining 7” statement however.

        Not sure if this is what you are looking for but kind of touches on your fourth point.

        Bottomline; I agree with your earlier assessment. This kind of discussion will probably not aid anyone in finding the chest.
        I’ll also add this tidbit from Cindy’s blog about Mr 200 footer Loco referenced earlier:

        Cindy: “Absolutely, Forrest occasionally says or writes things to searchers that sound like a hint or something useful when he knows it is of no help in finding the treasure chest. A wise man (Dal) once told me “after you visit Forrest at his home for the first time, you leave thinking he told you something…”

        • Hello Colokid. I’ve always thought the discussion about 200′-500′ was interesting. While traveling, there were signs along the way showing 500′ before the next pull-off for slow vehicles, and it was then I realized how close searchers were and wondered how the treasure chest went undiscovered.

          • Pden,
            It is interesting, but my point is (an others made essentially the same point up thread), just because F says something doesn’t mean it’s a new clue. In most cases, I’d wager he’s just fanning the flames to keep excitement and engagement high among the searchers and holding out hope that we might find it.

            I think Cynthias analysis that there may have been only 1 Mr 200 footer is probably very close to the truth. And since it’s likely he is no longer with us, it’s not keeping me up at night.

          • Hi Colokid: there are (or were) at least three 200-footers, and while they may have all been in the same search group, it seems unlikely that all three would now be dead.

            Rudy Maxa’s radio program (7/16/2016) starting at the 4:00 mark, Rudy asks: “And, and have … Do you know if anyone has even come close?”
            FF: “I know that, uh, several people have been within 200 feet of the treasure, because they told me exactly where they were.”
            Rudy: “Oh my goodness! That’s incredible!”
            FF: “But, but they don’t know who they are – they don’t know that they’re the ones that were close.”
            Rudy: “Right, you didn’t say, ‘Oh my goodness, you’re 200 feet … you were 200 feet away, right?”
            FF: “Never would I say that.”

            “Several” — by Forrest own definition: more than two.

          • Zap,
            Well here’s a reprint of the quotes from Cindy:

            Forrest had told them “This one guy is not a searcher. He went looking for the treasure one time. And never again. He’s the closest one to it that I know of, and I’m pretty sure…” (Those words in quotation marks are the exact words from the audio recording which I received a couple days prior to Jason’s post on YouTube.) Along with that “information”, Kpro talked about her conversation with FF a couple days prior, where he had also said “Only 1 man within 200 feet. He only searched once. Didn’t need the money. Only searched because ff was the person who hid it. FF said the guy knew him better than he thought. Find this guy, find the treasure.”

            As always, there seems to be some contradicting statements that leave some wiggle room in the actual reality but it’s quit reasonable that the “1 searcher” may have had a companion or two who were not literally searchers.

            Maybe this is the relevant quote:
            MW, Questions posted 6/2/2014
            “As far as I know the closest person to the treasure was a man, but there may have been a woman with him.”
            So maybe Fenn doesn’t really know and “several” was one of those slips used to chum the waters of excitement?

            I stand by my prior statement in that I think there was only 1 “searcher” based on Cindy’s info. If you want to call it a group of three that’s fine. Just sitting back and thinking about this, doesn’t it seem unlikely that there really were/are lots of people getting within 200? Sounds like a aberration to me.

          • Hi Colo: I’m pretty agnostic about the head count on the 200 feet. It “sounds” tantalizing, and if Forrest wanted to make it at little more so, he could choose his words to disguise the number of independent people that have gotten that close, making it sound like more than it actually is.

            Still, he has said LOTS of people have been within 500 feet. From a purely statistical standpoint, 16% of those 500-footers could/should have been within 200 feet, barring some geographical barrier (not uncommon in the mountains!) that prevents a random spatial distribution. On the scale of the Rockies, the difference between 200 feet and 500 feet is not substantial, nor is it sufficient (apparently) to make the difference between success and failure.

      • Ken (in TX): challenge accepted. 🙂

        Radio New Zealand (4/3/2013) at the 12:22 mark, Forrest says: “There have been two different parties have figured out the first two clues, but they went right past the treasure chest and didn’t find it. There were seven more clues, and they didn’t figure them out, but they got pretty close.” (unfortunately, the link I have is dead).

      • Ken{TX} ~ *You see what we have here? I fear that some searchers, not all of course, have taken that one quote and jumped to conclusions.*

        Oh, how I agree we can’t take one comment {ATF} and run with it… However…
        “It’s not a matter of trying it’s a matter of thinking. Sure I mean, people have figured the first couple clues and unfortunately WALKED past the treasure chest.”
        Oh radio interview in the media section, however the link don’t work anymore.

        ““Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close…”

        “…LOTs of PEOPLE were within 500 feet of the treasure. But the people that were within 200 ft didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure and they walked right by.”

        And as Zap posted: Radio New Zealand (4/3/2013) at the 12:22 mark, Forrest says: “There have been two different parties have figured out the first two clues, but they went right past the treasure chest and didn’t find it. There were seven more clues, and they didn’t figure them out, but they got pretty close.(unfortunately, the link I have is dead).

        “I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

        Ken{TX}~ *First, the first two clues were “mentioned … in an email …”.
        In other words, those searchers were not necessarily AT wwwh. The email could have been sent from their home, a thousand miles away.

        Seeker’s analogy; Are you not doing the same with just this *one* comment you complain other are doing? Folks have told fenn where they been, walked him through their process, some telling him exactly where they been.

        Question posted 7/1/2014: MWs
        Mr. Fenn: In the past when you have said that several people had figured out the first two clues and then went right past the other clues, would you say that they got lucky and just happened to go to the correct starting area, not fully understanding the poem, or would you say that they did indeed solve the first two clues by understanding the poem and clues? C

        Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f

        They all can’t be simply email {at home} general solves, right? Not when searchers “Walked past the treasure chest”

        Now, If you want all those comments to be beside having anything to do with those {close} being of 500′ or 200′ ..I’m ok with that.
        For me, when you add up those {and other ATFs} it sure seems clear folks have “Solve” “Indicated” “Mentioned” “Figured the first couple of clues” and “walked” “went right by” “not knowing how close they were” {apparently, the chest}, are some of the same folks who got the first two clues, went right by the remaining seven, and 500′ or less from the end game.

        Yep, kinda of sucks for the drivers, I guess.

        Note: Searchers, People, Others, etc. have been used to describe folks searching… Went right by, Walked past, Close etc. describe searchers telling fenn where they have been.

        LOL… apparently, all these fennologist forget other comments that was debated for years, until;
        “…need to start at the beginning.” only to argue about this for being of stanza 1 or 2? Yet we now know the first clue is stanza 2 “begin it where…”
        “Although I’m not ready to say the chest is not in water…” Only to now know the chest is not “underwater”

        Ken {TX} ~*But is that it? No other quotes from Forrest about “… right past the other seven”?*

        It’s our job to figure it all out.. not fenn’s job to point it out for us.
        But hanging your hat on one and only one comment will not help. In many cases the ATFs seem to conflict. But if studied enough, imo, they all hold a truth for the overall scheme of things.
        The problem is especially hard because; we get these ATFs at different times, sometime years apart, and from many different venues. LOL but, how we love to nickle and dime as single comment as long as it’s works for our theories.

        • Hi Seeker/Ken(TX): here’s another valuable ATF to throw into the mix. My transcript:

          The Cutting Room Floor (9/17/2016): FF: “I have positive indication that people have been within 200 feet. I don’t know that anyone has been closer than 200 feet of the treasure.”

          Janet (interviewer): “And that knowledge comes from what, emails that they talk… have written to you?”

          FF: “And photographs. People tell me where … normally people tell me generally where they are, but not specifically. But, these people told me exactly where they were – I recognized the spot — and… but I didn’t tell them that they were close.”

          Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FIOy9TggUc

          Important quote: “I recognized the spot”! So the photograph(s) was(were) enough for Forrest to know exactly where they had been.

          • When he says that he doesn’t know if anyone has been closer than 200 feet of the treasure, by “anyone” does he mean searchers or people in general? Is it possible that non-searchers have been within 200 feet? If it’s unlikely that non-searchers have been within 200 feet then there must be some kind of “barrier” 200 feet from the treasure. If nothing else maybe it just doesn’t look like an interesting location to non-searchers.

  35. All of the recent talk about Fenn comments/quotes/interviews/SB’s along with the ensuing differences of opinion(DOP) and inconsistencies involved, seems to lead back to the prescribed ingredients that he has uttered a couple/few/several times… poem, TTOTC, a good map and/or GE. Marrying the clues to the map…
    This is definitely not to say that everything else compiled over the years should go to the garbage heap by any means. I wouldn’t trade any of the little tidbits learned over the years tripping over myself and falling down a gopher hole or twenty. It’s been a hoot and then some and I do find myself smiling and shaking my head as I climb back into reality…. only to find another wild tangent to run down. I do believe there are definitely more than a few good *nickels* that Fenn has tossed out there… it’s just going to boil down to figuring out the clues for them to become recognizable as he intended. I don’t think it will work out the other way around….

    • Ken – I couldn’t agree with you more and I certainly can relate to “I do find myself smiling and shaking my head as I climb back into reality….” LOL!

      It seems lately I have been finding myself reading everyones thoughts and by the time I get to the end of a thread, someone else has already expressed what I was about to say. No need to clutter up with “more of the same.”

      And I think some searchers are onto some pretty good thoughts for solves and we are all patiently waiting for our next (or first for some) BOTG! But even if things go round and round when discussing the Chase, I still enjoy HOD for helping us all get through the winter. Thanks Dal for all you do to keep us sane til Spring!

    • Ken,
      I’ma pickin up whatcha puttin down…

      But there have been golden moments { and even some still debatable in parts }… one being; Not associated with a structure.

      While that was seemingly stated for the chest { one could conclude all clues are directly associated with the chest}…and…with a second hand info which seems to imply a possibility of no clues related to a structure… or the very least hoB?
      IF, and I repeat; IF that conclusion is likely, then that alone seems very important when thinking about other comments; Geography, the year 3009, thinking down the road {and maps or GE}… and on and on. Don’t those combinations of ATFs help at all? IF they are understood as intended?
      Otherwise, Molly Brown’s house is going to have a lot more visitors.

      This reminds me of the Q&A about; agent777’s a map is a map… The more detailed a map the better, right? LOL well don’t maps have a lot of structures all over the place?
      Now the question is; what are the details?
      Maybe the better question is; What is not “associated with”?
      Would we even ask these questions without ATFs not matter what venue we read or hear them from?

      Just one thing I think should be added to the other “ATF” you mentioned.
      LOL personally, I think another golden moment was; No short cuts.. he followed the clues in the poem when he hid the chest…
      That’s about not skipping a clue or staring at a later clue. imo. Both of which have been said not to do in one form or another. Think about that; could those first few searcher who had the first two clues try and skip over some clues… like #3 or #4-?- just because they were stumped on something?

      Helpful in finding the chest?… hmmm… I’m gonna say, Yep. Because IF we don’t go down the wrong path to start with.. they should keep us on the right path {check and balance}… theoretically.

      Just sayin….

      • HA ! But but but… Funny schtuff ! Sure… there are more than a few common sense items(bones) that Fenn has tossed us that would be redoinkulous to overlook. While we’re at it… the most important ones would be on the Safety thread. And then there’s the Cheat Sheet factoid list. Even though these should be no-brainers… well no sense heading down that muddy path. Let’s just reiterate and say that my post was more in line with the more *debatable* … or … *inconsistent* pieces of intel that have been tossed about. Speaking about *dead horses* stacking up is a bit grisly…. but certainly it must be more than obvious that some of these sticky topics have not lead to someone actually having that huge EUREKA moment as of yet. I still say… buyer beware when basing a solve around anything outside the *prescribed* list of [tools].

        • Ken, you seem a wise man. I have a Eureka vacuum cleaner. Momma always needs a good vacuum to clean up the dirt tracked in by careless folks.

          Intelligence is important for sure (In fact Toby said Shelly was training for intel), but I believe in two things about the chase: stick to the poem and balance imagination with information, humor, and grace if you can. I cannot stress The importance of harmless humor enough. The rest is cake.

          Good luck and stay safe.

        • >WARNING! My opinion only! 😉 Fine print: The statements in this post are my thoughts/opinion(s) and my thoughts/opinion(s) only. No animals were harmed in the forming of these thoughts/opinion(s). Please keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times while in motion. Keep a good sized salt shaker handy at all times – at least when reading my posts. <*

          • Hmmm… must have put too much in my post? All of the top portion is missing! So this last part is completely un-“associated” with what I was wishing to share.

            LOL! Oh well…

  36. In my opinion — and I think this is important enough to repeat that it’s my opinion — , if FF says that someone was within 500 feet of the treasure, that means in a straight line, directly between the person and the treasure (and likely the line is not a vertical one).

    Those who interpret the distance as meaning “within 500 feet of the proper elevation” should
    read the rest of this message. How many of us have flown in a commercial airliner?

    I have, and therefore have been at 5000 feet elevation and also at 10,200 feet elevation. So guess what? I have been within 500 feet of the proper elevation. Big whoop. Probably at least 99.9% of Fenn treasure searchers have done this.

    Okay, I’m close to the end of this message. Please remember that it’s all in my opinion. Geez.

  37. Thanks to all the posters who responded to my query, above.

    At the time I made that post, I was fairly confident that I was aware of all of Forrest’s comments about the proximity of the first two clues to the treasure chest. But I wanted to make sure that I wasn’t overlooking something he said. Hence, my question to posters.

    From y’all responses, it appears that indeed I had NOT overlooked any of his quotes. All of his quotes that posters posted in response to my inquiry I was already aware of.

    Given that, here’s my point …

    Forrest has never said that once those first two clues are solved, searcher can WALK to or past the OTHER SEVEN CLUES. In other words, he has never said that the distance from WWWH to the treasure chest is within walking distance.

    Now, a searcher can certainly massage those various Fenn verbal statements to INFER their OPINION that searcher can walk from WWWH to the treasure chest. And a lot of searchers do just that. But Forrest, himself, has never said any such thing.

    And that’s important, given the poem. (Remember the poem? :)) No one in their response to me, above, mentioned the poem’s blatant phrase >>> BUT TOO FAR TO WALK.

    I think what has happened over the years is that some searchers have abandoned the poem, in favor of Forrest’s verbal comments ATF. It’s okay of course to pay attention to everything he says. But when searchers use his verbal comments to overrule the poem, that’s a problem, a big problem.

    It has resulted in searchers thinking that the area covered by the nine clues is small … walkable from WWWH to the chest. Which is precisely what Toby Younis thinks. He has made it very clear that, to him, the distance from WWWH to the chest is no more than about a thousand feet, with eight clues that you walk past, after having arrived by car at

    The consensus about a small search area has become so pervasive in the search “community” it crowds out all other possibilities. Rather than using Forrest’s confusing, at time contradictory, verbal comments to justify a preordained search site, I think searchers need to get back to the poem.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken (in TX): for what it’s worth, I have never walked from WWWH because it is not the “put in” location. “Too far to walk” has actually never been that far in any of my solutions, but when you’re carrying 22+ pounds (or worse, the whole treasure chest load) why would you walk *any* portion that could be driven?

      • Hi zap … You said “too far to walk” has … never been that far in any of my solutions …”. I infer, therefore, that your search area is fairly small.

        What I had in mind is something like the following, a totally hypothetical situation … Let’s say the chest is placed on western shore of Jackson Lake (Grand Teton Nat’l. Park) at exactly same latitude as Colter Bay Village (on east shore of lake). As the crow flies, it’s only about 3 miles from eastern shore to western shore. But you can’t walk it; you’d have to swim across the lake or take a boat. So, to walk from Colter Bay Village to the west shore of Jackson Lake at same latitude, you walk north along Hwy. 191 along eastern shore to north edge of lake; then walk back south along western shore of lake. That distance far exceeds 3 miles; so it’s not far (as the crow flies), but it’s too far to walk.

        Given Forrest’s explicit wording “but too far to walk”, I conclude that there is no question about it; there’s no quibbling about 10 miles vs. 15 miles. Distance between point A and point B (in the poem) really is too far to walk, and searcher must drive. And “too far to walk” comes near the beginning of poem, which to me means we start with a large geographic area, which gradually shrinks as one moves through the clues. By the time searcher gets to the blaze, distances between clues can indeed be walked. But not at the beginning. Searcher must drive.

        The idea that one can walk from WWWH to the chest is ridiculous, in my opinion, because it directly contradicts the poem’s phrase >>> “but too far to walk”.

        • Ken (In Texas);

          I agree with you analysis. I think that because of the “too far to walk” statement, that one must drive from WWWsH to past the hoB.

          Maybe though, the “too far to walk” is not a reference to length of travel, but rather the danger of walking that distance. One definition of “FAR” is deadly or dangerous – So, it is “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk”

          As an example, since we agree that the distance must be driven, there has to be a road. What if it would be too dangerous to walk along this road due to curves, hills, and traffic. Maybe Forrest is saying that because of the danger of walking along this road, drive instead. Just a thought – JDA

        • one could construct an easier visualization of that, with a raging stream that is only 20 or 30 feet wide, which would sweep a person away if they tried to cross, well it is only 25′ feet away, but inadvisable to walk those 25′ to get to the other side.

          reminds me of two people fishing meeting on opposite sides of a river, one yells across to the other: “I need to get to the other side!”, the other yells back: “you are already on the other side”

        • Yes, an area not far, but with something there that prevents you from walking a short distance, such as the lake in your example, makes sense for NFBTFTW. Using this idea could also feasible help the searcher with the correct put in location below, as long as they are following the poem.

        • There really is no (reasonable) distance that is “too far to walk” in the Rockies. After all, Forrest walked over 90 miles from West Yellowstone to Bozeman. Even in Ken’s Jackson Lake example, you could walk it — it would just take a long time. (And why would you if you could drive closer to your final destination?) So it’s obvious to me that “too far to walk” means something else.

          We have other walking restrictions: TFTW with a 22+ pound backpack, and the knowledge that Forrest completed this task (twice) in no more than “several hours.” The latter is far more restrictive than the poem’s “too far to walk,” again telling us it ain’t the distance.

          • zap … you’re putting modifiers on the phrase TFTW, like “22+pound backpack” and “Forrest completed this task twice …”. In the poem, there are no modifiers to the phrase TFTW; it’s a straight-out, blunt assertion. I think it is a distance and if all of us knew what that distance was, we would agree that it’s too far to walk.

          • Hi TX-Ken: re: “I think it is a distance and if all of us knew what that distance was, we would agree that it’s too far to walk.”

            I think the distance is EASILY walkable — even by a 79-year-old man. But I can drive it in less than 1/20th the time. I don’t even know what the exact distance is, but that’s because I believe the distance is superfluous. In my opinion, it’s not a distance clue at all.

    • I have not forgotten the poem and interpret NFBTFTW as poetic for impossible to walk because it has to do with sheer elevation. 20 feet of sheer elevation is not terribly far, but pretty much too far to walk up. All IMO.

    • Ken (in Texas) – Well said! I’m very much in agreement with you and believe that WWWH and the canyon down are used to pinpoint and area on a large-scale map and I typically think that the BOTG walking starts at the put-in point.

      I won’t commit to saying that TFTW means that walking to WWWH is impossible; in the preface of the book TFTW Forrest gives us an example of a long trip he took along the Madison River that he was able to do just fine in his younger days, but is only TFTW now in his later years. Just my 2 cents.

    • Ken {TX} ~ *Forrest has never said that once those first two clues are solved, searcher can WALK to or past the OTHER SEVEN CLUES. In other words, he has never said that the distance from WWWH to the treasure chest is within walking distance.*

      It’s our job to figure out what the line means, is it not?
      On the flip side of getting confirmation about anything… How long did it take for WWsH to be declared the first clue even when fenn was asked dozens of times?
      How long did it take for fenn to stated he followed his own created clues in the poem “when he hid the treasure”? Or the chest is not in a watery grave…?
      Years went by with a lot of information only to be released later for one reason or another. Ya might have to wait a long time if you want “confirmation” about TFTW.

      As far as the line in the poem {NF,BTFTW} in your theory you only allow the idea of this unknown distance is a must to be traveled. Are you not limited yourself and forcing a large area by only interpreting of; a must travel idea?
      TFTW… don’t walk, right? {whether driving or not, it seems to say “don’t walk”}
      But what about something that is “not far?” Would that indicate the possibility of being able to see what comes next-?- before you move at all? But instead you want the TFTW to be of a distance of travel… making a precondition notion clues [some] have to be driven to.

      You said ~ *The consensus about a small search area has become so pervasive in the search “community” it crowds out all other possibilities.*
      LOL you’re doing the same in your theory… which now requires alternative transportation other than walking.

      The major difference is how “take it in” { take something in } can be of; a movement vs. observing before even thinking of moving anywhere. The possible problem in see is when reader continue to read line after line in the poem they tend to leave out the prior lines… or feel they solved them and are no longer needed for later lines.

      This conversation is a great example. I say you get to WWsH ans look [ possibly } south along a canyon… Not Far down said canyon… but too far to walk, because you “don’t walk.” You look for what needs seeing.

      You and others dislike the idea of ATFs has helpful in attempting to understand how the poem can be *read* {big difference in solving}, yet ya’ll sniff out fenn’s life like a bloodhound chasing rabbits. What’s the difference?
      Here’s another thought; in the book tftw, doesn’t fenn relate to the idea of tftw as being related to age and time?
      IF TFTW is of a time line… might the idea be more about the “waters” than a searcher? Or even the idea of “once upon a while” -?- being time related?
      Is it not, “The thrill of the chase,” about fenn’s *life time* of exploring and collecting?

      Personally I think you’re limiting a single idea to travel an unknown distance/distances while downing the idea of a much smaller scale search area. There is nothing in the poem that *specifically* says; “take it in” is an physical action a searcher must do… Because if that is all you are doing you automatically dismiss observation and/or time to the possibility.
      LOL including the possibility of a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help;
      “Geography seeks to understand where things are found, why they are there, and how they develop and change over time.”
      Source; National Geographic Society.

      Now back to your comment above about fenn never saying; *the distance from WWWH to the treasure chest is within walking distance.*
      Ha! maybe not by your assumption, however, he did say he followed the clues IN THE POEM {and we know there are 9 clues that need to be followed, there’s no other way to his knowledge}… and made two trips from his car… done in one afternoon… he put one foot down and step on the other… walked less than a few miles… tells searchers to be able to walk several hours to our solve [twice]… and tells all we must start at WWsH. Do we dismiss the new knowledge or only use bits of them that work for our theories?
      I said it before; IMO all the ATFs should hold true to each other. The idea is the check and balance for any theory is to; “Think the right thoughts.”

      PS. Toby is late to the party …. Just sayin….

      • Seeker, you wrote: “fenn relate to the idea of tftw as being related to age and time? IF TFTW is of a time line… might the idea be more about the “waters” than a searcher?”
        Where did you come up with the idea of “age and time”? If you’re thinking about the long eons of geology, I don’t think you’re getting that from the poem. And no, the poem is written for the benefit of searchers, not for the benefit of waters, in my opinion.

    • The one thing I keep thinking about relating to the size of the search area is the repeated statement by f to “drive to WWH” or “drive to the first clue”. Logically, if we could solve the whole poem or at least the first few clues, and end up searching BOTG at a location many miles from WWH, then why would we ever need to drive to WWH? Why drive to a location just to drive to another location?

      There are really only 2 things I can come up with. Either we drive to and begin BOTG at WWH, which would indicate a relatively small search area, or, like Seeker sometimes says, we need to observe something at the location of WWH to know how to proceed with solving the remaining clues. The latter of these could indicate a larger total area that the poem eventually takes us through but it also may not, depending on the solve for the clue(s).

      So Ken, if you interpret NF,BTFTW as an indication that we need to drive somewhere else, then would you ever drive to WWH to begin with?

      • Distant Logic

        There’s another possible idea that does involve driving and having to be at WWsH.
        All the physical clues are seen and followed from a single vantage point of WWsH… each being a a relatively long distances apart and lining them up to a single point where they all meet will produce the blaze.

        This can only be accomplished by being at WWsh and observing all the physical clue references and matching the directions and instructions at this point… then drive to the blaze location. LOL I’m not diigin this for one reason… not knowing what the blaze is until we drive to that location and only in the hope we can find it.
        Here’s what I like about this idea. The blaze could be directly below you at WWsH { Water high } is above you when at the blaze, which could represent what heavy loads refers to. This idea give a large search location with a small destination, and “too far to walk” could be 50′ straight down, onlt to have to drive to the closes point of the blaze {below WWsH}

        The pinion nut story always confused me as to why water was never mentioned. Could it be because we are standing at or in-front of said water {a a very specific point} as we “take it in {look} the canyon down”?
        But who would do that???… look for the blaze at WWsH, right?

        • “ But who would do that???… look for the blaze at WWsH, right?”

          Do you think no one has looked for the blaze prior to wwwh?

        • Here’s a new (to me) idea about the blaze.

          A blaze (fire) burns something, right? Forrest, in TTOTC (the
          chapter about my war for me) said something about his tears
          burning his eyes. What if finding “the blaze”, one way or another, means experiencing something that brings tears to your eyes? (This has happened to me on several search hikes,
          all near the same body of water.)

          This is just a thought representing something one might want to consider. It may not be necessary, and may not necessarily conflict with any other way of having “found the blaze”.

          As always, IMO.

      • Hi Distant Logic …
        You wrote: ” … then why would we ever need to drive to WWH?”
        I don’t think a searcher “needs” to drive to WWWH. But you certainly can; it’s a pretty location. But the reason a searcher could choose to drive there is to confirm Forrest’s idea of “warm waters halt”.

  38. One should keep in mind the meaning of “within” could mean 200′ or 1 foot. Again the word “within ” could mean any distance from 200ft. To 1ft.
    The word ” within” does not specify actual distance from the treasure.
    “Within” , 500 ft. Could mean in actually 200 ft. . Or any distance from 500ft. To one ft.
    Does this make any sense ?

  39. One should keep in mind the meaning of “within” could mean 200′ or 1 foot. Again the word “within ” could mean any distance from 500ft. To 1ft.
    The word ” within” does not specify actual distance from the treasure.
    “Within” , 500 ft. Could mean in actually 200 ft. . Or any distance from 500ft. To one ft.
    Does this make any sense ?

  40. I find it a tantalizing thought experiment that the entire search community of (insert some large number here) has solved the riddle a 100 times over as a whole, (collection of ideas). Many of the better ideas fully independently, obviously, because the “whole collection” as a basket of ideas, the better ones are not shared all that often if at all. But as individuals, none have a coherent top to bottom free flowing solution that stands on its own.

    two take aways from this could be:

    ff’s assessment that clues become progressively easier, is more of a pirate guideline than a pirate “rule”.

    the poem’s sense of precision is more a pirate guideline than a pirate “rule”.


    • Caller: Hello Mr Obvious. First time caller, long time listener. Say, Mr Obvious. I’ve been wonderin’. What’s a clue anyway? Can I use the dictionary here?”

      Mr Obvious: “No you can’t. This is TTOTC. Mr Fenn calls the shots. And he has his own definition. He makes words up you know.”

      Caller: “Huh? Well IAW Mr Fenn, what’s the definition of a CLUE then?”

      Mr Obvious: “A CLUE is anything that takes you closer to the treasure chest.”

      Caller: “OK? So might a rainbow take you closer? Does that qualify?”

      Mr Obvious: “Maybe it would, I guess? Now why would you ask a stupid question like that caller?”

      Caller: “No reason. Thanks Mr Obvious you’re the best.”

      Mr Obvious: “Of course I am caller. That’s why I get paid the big bucks. Have a great day.”

    • #3) one could have the absolutely coolest “answer” for a clue, especially for wwwh, or Hob, with that “answer” even better than the actual answer for this riddle.. yet we’d have zero way of knowing if that indeed is the case. worst part is that is a conundrum that there is no way around. (no way to know) until after the fact.


      • Writis,
        I concur. I have a perfect solve – (if I could) – Then I go out and test that solve – I get to where I should be seeing the blaze – “Where in the BLAZES is it!!!???” Yep, I do not doubt that many have had good, and even correct solves – at least up to a point – but until one is actually looking at the TC no one will know if their solve was the actual one or if their solve was incomplete from beginning to end. {i.e. that they didn’t just get the first few clues and walk past the rest} Which is why I enjoy reading so many opinions and varying views. They become both a sounding board for my thoughts and sometimes a reality check on those thoughts as well.
        Thanks All!

        • HotL *Then I go out and test that solve– I get to where I should be seeing the blaze – “Where in the BLAZES is it!!!???” *

          Maybe it’s just me but shouldn’t we have “been wise and found the blaze” is a sequence of all present tense clue’s references?
          Stanza 1 is in past tense
          Stanza 2 is in present tense.
          Stanza 3 is as well.
          Stanza 4 starts out in past tense… why is that?

          Been: past participle of be.
          Found: having been discovered by chance or unexpectedly. { is this why “been wise” is added?… to understand what it is we discovered prior?} Wise and Found = knowledge of the prior discovery?

          I mean, it sure sound like a clue in stanza 2 or 3 could represent the blaze… we just need to recognize it as such.
          One example is; If we knew hoB it would take us to the chest. Or, why be concerned about WWsH if we’re sure about hoB?
          The question is; is hoB just a point on a map to walk, drive, boat, hop skip and jump, away from? Or could it be what we need to have been wise about?

          I revert to Becky’s Q&A about the blaze being predetermined in the poem or only in the field… which resulted in a none answer from fenn, after 30 mins. of pondering.
          Could it be the blaze is of a prior physical object mentioned in the poem but only seen correctly while at ground level?
          Another-words… if seen from GE/map a searcher would not see the clue as fenn did from memory of being on site.

          • Seeker, I could be wrong, but I read it as two requirements to get to reach the “look quickly down” portion. 1) If you have been wise (by solving the clues to this point) and 2) found the blaze. Both requirements for moving forward. This is opposed to having found the blaze previously in the poem.

          • Could it be the blaze is of a prior physical object mentioned in the poem but only seen correctly while at ground level?

            Exactly, IMO. Why is it that we have to hang it up until the next year when snow is on the ground? People play, live, etc… in snow, so why do we need to wait for the snow to melt?
            IMO, because there is something on the ground.
            We could find it in any weather, right? So why is there an actual search season?
            If this is the case, then there would also have to be some kind of ‘back-up” info out there to get you to that spot. If it’s on the ground, it most likely can be destroyed. Something else would have to hint to this spot. Whatever on the ground would then also be a hint, referenced from the poem, to finding the clue.
            If you are going by the path solve method, then it really wouldn’t matter, just something to see for reference to a clue. The hints don’t have to be in order, so the hint could be anywhere in the poem.
            There are hints everywhere, we know that, but a poem hint would be more to the finding of a clue. Not saying other hints won’t do this, but coming from the poem is a little different. If we are talking blaze, then that leaves it open to the blaze not being known, and the hint would guide you to it. This would, in turn, keep with the ATF about no subtle answers to WWWH, blaze, hoB, or Brown, since the subtle answer would be the hint, then in finding the hint, you can find the clue.
            The line, ‘tarry scant with”, it’s that ‘with” that makes it possible that ‘marvel gaze”, is a physical thing. So, is the marvel gaze on the ground? And looking up from there gives the blaze?

          • Aaron,

            What’s your definition of moving forwards?

            I still think many have this need to actually move *physically*… where is can read the poem, still moving forwards, with understand why hoB might be the blaze.

            Example; Insert fenn’s bear story… what color is the bear?
            Think about hoB or the entire sentence the same way; “Put in” below the hoB.
            Is the “put in” the blaze? I highly doubt it.. it sound more like an instruction. So what Is hoB for? Just a way-mark?

            WWsH is the start, canyon down is a direction, put in is an instruction, hoB seems to imply a physical reference…
            So, what could stanza 3 be relaying to what hoB is about?
            Note; in the above there’s not anything to imply a movement [ keep in mind the observational solve theory ].
            Could “from there” refer to where we still are at ~ WWsH? and with the only physical clue {after WWsH} being hoB… what would be the reason we haven’t moved away from WWsH yet?

            Because we need to see hoB for what it is on site [ not from GE ]. So “from there” doesn’t say it a different place to be at, but possibly a different “time” to stay for, that is no pace for the meekies.
            That time is ever drawing near it end. and where are we now? At heavy load {hob} and water high {WWsH}… is you’ve “been wise”… “too far to walk” {don’t walk away} “and found” the only other physical object { seem from WWsH}… what could it represent?

            now quickly {time is of the essence} down for your quest to cease.

          • By moving forward, I’m referring moving to the next line in the poem: “look quickly down…”

            I do believe HoB is a physical reference, and put in is an instruction. I don’t believe we even need to get to HoB physically, only the put in spot. We know this spot because it is below HoB and also next to NPFTM. I don’t believe stanza 3 relays anything about what hoB could be. I believe we can only determine what hoB is in relation to IT.

    • Writis … you wrote: ” … as individuals, none have a coherent top to bottom free flowing solution that stands on its own”.

      That is not true. I have a “coherent top to bottom free flowing solution that stands on its own”. And it is 100 percent derived from the poem, no other source.

      Different searchers are at different levels in the chase, some just beginning, some with partial solutions, some with complete solutions.

  41. Aye Aye Cap –
    I’ll climb to the top and take a look around.
    Stay right there – I’ll be back.

    • Not only that but why then get angry at the Uber driver? When you thought it could not get any crazier…

      • shaking head in disbelief, how much is a 250 mile uber ride in Montana anyway? can anyone provide an estimate, (uber drivers in Montana?)

        I liked the line.. “don’t die”… although pragmatic for the 250 mile ride back 🙂

    • Aaron-
      I think it’s less than 250 miles…but still…I guess you have to catch a ride back to Bozeman when you’re finished…
      On the other hand, if you thought you were going to find the chest when you got there…an Uber fare would be a minuscule cost, for the reward…
      and Uber drivers need to make a living too…
      I find it amusing that we can add Uber to the list of those who gain from searchers excursions…

      • I think I would design a hook for the outside of the car to hang the bear spray on, to avoid the case of a ‘fare’ sitting on theirs wrong… (looking at you Cynthia)

    • What do you say to the Uber driver?
      “Wait there by that brown thing. I just have to walk in about 200ft and grab something. I’ll be right back.”

    • Aaron….thanks for sharing the funniest article I’ve read all day.

      Favorite excerpts …”They don’t even tell their wives where they’re going. It’s weird,” he said…..

      “When I let them out of the car, I always say, ‘Don’t die!'” said Uber driver Carrie Arndt …

      omg I want to be an Uber driver in Bozeman!! Witty farewells and all. I could be a surrogate treasure hunter for hire. Oh wait…I did that for a half dozen people already and look where it got me. Have bear spray will travel.

    • For treasure hunting, I find the story hard to believe, yet also a very good and viable option considering my solve for the poem. I would say it’s crazy and Ludacris, but upon examination of my own activities treasure hunting, my hats off to the uber guys.

  42. Jean Lotus just wrote a story for UPI. That means it will appear in newspapers across the English speaking spectrum of the known universe.
    No new information. She used some of Dr. Alan King’s findings published in his recent paper:
    Treasure Hunting as an American Subculture: the Thrill of the Chase, published online in the journal Human Arenas. Links to both Jean’s story and Alan’s paper can be found in the Media Coverage section of this blog:

    • hmm, I assumed that the chase naturally brought out more “crazies” than normal…

      it turns out that 7% of the population of the US is just plain crazy…

      great…. heck with bear spray… we need people spray…

  43. Hi Ann O’,

    From up-thread you mentioned that you were able to pinpoint one WWWH by focusing on it alone. Did you also use some information from the first or last few stanzas to help you with it? No need to be specific if you can’t be, just trying to find out another perspective when solving the riddle. Anything else there helps describe what the actual wwwh is supposed to be or do or does the extra info (if any) just points to the general area?

    This comment: Question posted 7/1/2014: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    Dear Forrest,

    You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

    a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
    b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

    Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

    No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?

    • Oz10,

      Excellent question! I will gladly answer.

      So I vaguely recall the post to which you are referring. I don’t know my exact words and instead of trying to locate it I will just clarify here. I don’t recall what originally led me to the WWWH I refer to, It was not the words WWWH, but another (or other) part(s) of the poem. I don’t even think it was a very direct route to get there. But, here is what I meant in my previous post. Deciding what “where warm waters halt: means has only really pointed me to this specific WWWH. It was a quote of FF that gave me some clarity. He said something about knowing where warm waters halt, as opposed to where WWWH is. So in asking myself where it is that warm waters halt, I am led to this specific location.

      To be clear, you cannot ask yourself where is WWWH and arrive at the same location. There are lots of such where(s) in the Rockies. But there are few places where warm waters halt. And I say this fairly confidently because of the four words themselves.

      Now, that being the case, what makes this specific location a good candidate is not that it is where warm waters halt, although that is certainly a helpful starting point. What I have had to ask myself since is does this place where warm waters halt jive well with the rest of the poem. Stanza one helps a little. But really it’s the rest of stanza two and parts of three that help make it a good candidate.

      I will also add this though, parts of stanza three and definitely stanza four are not so clear just by looking at the map. But, I think that supports the notion of only being to get so far before needing BOTG. The lack of clarity on just what constitutes the nine clues gives me pause in confidently declaring any potential area as a likely candidate. I have two other areas of interest in the entire searchable region that are of interest for many independent reasons, but neither of them because of where warm waters halt. Thus this third area is perhaps of greater interest because of where warm waters halt. And I believe FF has remarked elsewhere that if we don’t know where warm waters halt we don’t know anything.

      I would also like to add that I am not confident in declaring a word that is ket, and by this I mean a word in the poem that will help more than the others. I will reiterate here what I have posted elsewhere. As of now, I believe the word that is key (in the context defined above) is either Brown (because it is capitalized and does not start a line) or halt (because it is where warm waters well . . . halt and the search supposedly begins).

      To relate it back to the FF quote you cited about if that’s all we had could we…..I would say WWWH is like the cake mix you buy in the store (sorry this cake isn’t made from scratch, FF is the only one who can lay claim to that!). I can buy all the boxes of cake mix I want from the store but cakes don’t make themselves, and just buying the box of cake does not give me a finished cake. But, (and this is an important but), only the right box of cake mix will ever produce the desired cake to be made. I could not buy a red velvet cake mix and expect to make a yellow cake with it. So buying the right cake mix is crucial. The eggs, oil and/or water will pretty much be needed for whatever cake mix you start with. And yes, each ne will produce a cake. But we are looking for a bronze cake here. So you better have the bronze cake making mix!

      In the Chase, I believe WWWH is the cake mix. I may try to retrace my steps about how I cam across it in the first place. I don’t recall that it had to do with the line itself. But the line is what confirms that it is a where warm halts. Is it the bronze one? I don’t know. That can only be determined if the chest is found there. But, if I had a box labeled WWWH, I would ask myself what it is I believe I should find inside. And in looking inside various boxes, do the words WWWH aptly describe what I find inside? If the answer is no, then perhaps we are not looking inside a box of cake mix. If the answer is maybe, then we are likely looking at a box of cake mix but perhaps not the bronze cake mix. If the answer is yes, then we may be looking at the bronze cake mix.

      How can we tell which sort of box we are looking into? If you have to ask, I’d say you either are sure what your thoughts are on WWWH, or you likely aren’t looking at a box of cake mix that clearly fits what you think WWWH means.

      To put it another way I will quote a movie. I forget which movie at the moment but basically a son asks his father how do you know when you are in love. The father replies, if you knew you wouldn’t have to ask. (Or was it “when you don’t have to ask.”) Something like that. Okay so not really a quote as opposed to a paraphrase. But I hope you get the gist. I also hope this reply has helped. Let me know if you have any further questions.

      All IMO.


      • So many typos!!!

        Paragraph 7 line 3 should read:

        “But the line is what confirms that it is a where warm waters halt.”

        Paragraph 8 line 2 should read:

        “either are not sure what your thoughts are on WWWH”

        Other typos are not as significant.


  44. Interesting origin on the word “secret”
    late Middle English: from Old French, from Latin secretus (adjective) ‘separate, set apart’, from the verb secernere, from se- ‘apart’ + cernere ‘sift’.

    Sounds like the blaze, anything that stands out…set apart…?

    Maybe something
    …that stands straight and tall
    set apart from the rest
    a tribute to a not forgotten soldier
    who gave his life’s best….
    (Not my words, I read that in May 2104…)

      • I believe I know the place, set apart from the rest, if you know this place there is NO QUESTION about the WHY. The timelines fall into place but I don’t believe you’ll find it there. If you are in fact talking of the place I know please, please just go in PEACE.

  45. Could old faithful be a treasure I wonder. It’s old and then it goes off and is new. Half of the world’s thermal geysers are in Yellowstone, which is alot of warm water which halts in the yellow Stone river.

    • Brian….
      Of the 2 million searchers now looking for the chest I would guess that at least 250,000 have had that same idea cross their mind…

    • I didn’t know that a river that size, so far southwest/low, ever halted.

      I know that MY dictionary contains/defines “halt”. I don’t know about yours. IMO.

  46. Hi Ann O’Nymous: this post is mainly directed at you since you brought up Ramanujan on another thread. Odds -N- Ends seems like the only appropriate place for comment on the “Little *boy* in India,” but he was amazing. He created some fantastic, original formulas for computing pi (or pi derivatives), so think of Srinivasa when Pi Day rolls around next month a few days before St. Patrick’s. (Side note: many searchers have noted the possible PIneapple PIe connection to pi, plus his honored lure “PIckles,” and many other pi tie-ins.)

    One of my favorites of Ramanujan is his extremely accurate, geometric approximation to squaring the circle. The remarkably good pi approximation 355/113 has been known for centuries; what’s impressive is that Ramanujan invented a surprisingly easy way to generate that fraction geometrically back in 1913. Google “squaring the circle” and look for “Journal of the Indian Mathematical Society, V, 1913, 132.” It’s just a two-page PDF, and a fun exercise.

    • Zap,

      Ramanujan was impressive indeed! I actually know more about him than I let on. It’s hard not to know of his work and be a mathematician. I found the conference last summer at U of I most intriguing. It was a tribute to Ramujan and one of his great tributaries. I submitted a talk for the conference but it lay slightly beyond the scope of the conference. I went to see what others had to say and to see if any of it related to what I was/am working on. There is certainly room for potential.

      That said, I do not put it past anyone to be able to figure out anything, including this Chase. No one is better suited than anyone else and, whether new or old to the Chase, everyone is always essentially on a level playing field. Some of the beauty in discovery or in figuring things out is that anyone can do it! I think FF would appreciate this view in light of the Chase which he has clearly intended for all to enjoy. I will look over his approximation again as I really haven’t seen it since the conference.

      I wonder if you think it is more likely the Riemann Hypothesis will be resolved first or the Goldbach Conjecture proved true. I was amazed at the focus of the number theory world on resolving Riemann and not on proving Goldbach. I believe the latter is the easier of the two tasks and the more feasible. And accomplishing the task would essentially render the former unnecessary and yet somehow resolve it all in the same stroke. I think the known outliers are evidence enough of the “impossible” feat I foresee there. Though, I give credit to those trying.

      I wanted to share some thoughts with Mr. Ono on a fundamental question he focused in on at the conference, but he was gone before I knew it! Perhaps next time. I don’t imagine there will be any conferences on Goldbach anytime soon. So my presentation will have to wait. Perhaps I will conclude it before I have the opportunity to present it!

      All IMO.


    • Hey Zaphod, I thought the TTOTC search community invented “squaring the circle” as we got back in the box to chase our tails.

    • Hi 42: good connection! I sure hope Forrest’s poem isn’t the equivalent of squaring the circle, since the latter is provably impossible. But so far, the end results of efforts to do either are equivalent. 😉

  47. Just read through some of the discussion from yesterday about 200 ft… some interesting good statements referenced and interesting discussions. But I was surprised to not see a comment f made (about the 200 footer) that Cynthia mentioned about two years ago and then very recently released the audio of…


    Fernanda: Right. You’ve said, and I have read that people have come within 200 feet of the treasure, is that what it is?
    Forrest: And I, and I, that is approximate, but it is pretty close because some people have told me exactly where they were and I recognize that spot, and I know that it is about 200 feet from where I hid the treasure. To my knowledge no one has come closer than 200 feet.
    Fernanda: And why did that, I mean, is it that they, gave up before finding it?
    Forrest: No, they didn’t, they didn’t give up, ah, they left the poem.

    Everyone here is good at picking things apart and coming up with some unique and interesting interpretations… but what are the implications when f says that “they left the poem” once they got to “that spot” which is “about 200 feet from where [he] hid the treasure”?

    I am arguably simple-minded, but I have to ask:
    Just how much of the poem (solving of the clues) got them to within 200 ft?

    And a few more bones to digest for some additional context (some already mentioned above… just not together or in chronological order)…


    There have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest. (8/13)

    As far as I know the closest person to the treasure was a man, but there may have been a woman with him. (6/14)

    Q. Has anyone seen or mentioned the blaze to you? ~Stephanie
    A. Thanks Stephanie for the questions. I have read them several times very carefully. They appear subtle on the surface but they aren’t. A yes or no to either question would give too much away, so I’ll pass. Sorry, and I’m aware that some searchers will pick me apart for this answer. f (6/14)

    Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. (7/14)

    A man has been within striking distance but so have some women. (7/14)

    Based on some emails, Fenn said he believes they have come within 200 feet of the treasure. (8/14)

    I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues. (12/14)

    Forrest: People have been within 200 feet. I know that because people send me emails and tell exactly where they are. The people that have been at 200 feet from the treasure didn’t know that they were there.
    Reporter: They weren’t searching?
    Forrest: They were searching for the treasure, but they didn’t know that they were within 200 feet. (4/15)

    Forrest: I’ve had positive indication that people have been within 200 feet. I don’t know that anyone has been closer than 200 feet of the treasure.
    Janet: And that knowledge comes from what, emails that they talk… have written to you?
    Forrest: And photographs. People… people tell me where… normally people tell me generally where they are but not specifically; but these people told me exactly where they were. I recognized the spot, and… but I didn’t tell them that they were close.

    My opinion (and probably not worth anything and probably completely wrong):
    – 200 foot searcher got there using the poem in the 2013 search season.
    – they got there by getting the first two clues correct (probably had the third and fourth clue incorrect, but maybe had some of the later clues correct???).
    – it was a male searcher (and a woman was with him).
    – there is a good chance they may have seen the blaze while they were there, maybe even mentioned what it was to f… or not???… f certainly wasn’t keen to reveal anything about it…
    -when f says “ah” when he is talking, pay attention… he is about to say something that he probably has not said before and he is trying to formulate how to say it… without giving away anything (or too much).

    There is a lot more there, but I don’t want to do the thinking for people…

    I was never much to foray into the whole “lead searcher – 200 footer” rabbit hole (or much of anything this past year for that matter), but I wholly agree with f’s comments about the lead searcher…

    But there are certain things that one might need to answer affirmatively if one wants to live the fantasy that they are the 200 foot lead searcher…

    – you are a male
    – you searched in 2013
    – you took a female with you on your 2013 search (and maybe some others – (kids?))
    – you told f where you had been
    – you asked f if you were close
    – you emailed him pictures of where you had been
    – you post on the blogs (but others you took with you don’t)
    – you told f next to nothing for specifics/details about your searching in 2016 and 2017

    And time for bed.

  48. JCM!! I was just wondering if you were still lurking about. I hope everything is good with you and your clan.

    Great write-up, as usual, and I can agree with much of it. I’m wondering though, why 2013 and not an earlier date that he has commented on? You seem to be assuming that his remarks reflect recent occurrences, close to the time he commented?

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