Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Three

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630 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Three

      • Because…. She’s “Famous”!

        Yup, you know you’ve hit the big time when people refer refer to you only by your first name!!

        Cynthia’s maps v.s. Chinthia Meachum’s maps…

        Will the maps come with Providence?

    • Look at it this way. There are 29 maps. Some are the really nice maps that are waterproof. If you’re a new searcher youd get almost every map youd want. That’s why I bought them 2 years ago. However I never used them. I’m stuck up “north “.

    • Value is subjective. Like the value of a mite who is a descendant of the mite
      that ate part of a flake of dandruff that came from Elvis Presley’s head.

      Ermagerd! Am I allowed to say “head” around here??????????

      As always, part of my oPInion.

  1. JCM,

    What you wrote on the odds n ends page was how I had thought about those two distances and the ones close to them. Good write up.

    I also believe the person who wrote or told Forrest of their solve or the area of their solve, and might have had 3 or 4 clues solved, but Forrest wasn’t sure, was also a 200’ er.

    Some of us fit those categories you listed. Only time will tell if they can get back to that 200’ point and keep on searching for indulgence.

    Again JCM well stated,
    Bur

    • The 200′ ers, and the 500′ ers, tells us that it was be close to some notable point. If I told you that I hike into the forest (wood) several miles, no one could tell me I was 200 ‘ from anything. Just a thought. Brave. I think is a clever reference to Native American land.

    • Hi Bur – if you want to further narrow down the 2013 time frame… based upon f’s statement’s, I would estimate that the searchers arrival within 200 feet of the chest probably occurred between mid-April and early-July 2013.

      Considering other comments and recommendations from f, I would further narrow that down to possibly mid-May to late-June, but the ice gets a bit thin for the argument of this 1.5 month range of time.

      If you fit all the criteria, you better go take a look at that area again… 🙂

  2. I have studied this treasure for a couple of years now, off and on. The most haunting part of the poem is “if you are brave and in the wood”. The word wood is singular which apparently was done on purpose and has a big meaning. I have pondered over this a lot, but I have no clue that stands out to me? Do you have any ideas?

    • dean -the wood is a piece of land , that you have to cross when the creek dries up, it leaves a lot of broken pine trees sage bush and a lot of stuff that creeks leave behind all this leaves about 6 inches thick where snakes hide pretty darn good – and this land, you need to cross, and it is something to think about, and be a little brave, to cross to get to the treasure chest . this is where you have to be brave and in the wood .imo—-frank

      • Thick rubber boots with rattles attached (scare away the smaller snakes) and you should be OK. No need for bravery then.

        • lets just say , that a lot of people, don’t know that you have to cross this kind of in the wood . I went to a place like that , and I didn’t have thick rubber boots , I only went half ways – imo people think that in the wood is made of trees , but in my neck of the wood it wasn’t. just my opinion good luck and be carful —-frank

          • Which half did you cross Frank? The first half or the second? I wonder where the leaves come from in this land without trees!

          • its my opinion – chase champion – that you are not being funny – that is the way you think

    • Dean Hollingsworth – I usually think of wood defined as “a dense growth of trees usually greater in extent than a grove and smaller than a forest —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction” (as defined by Merriam Webster).

      Forrest could have used the word “woods” instead of “wood”, but “wood” rhymes better with “good”. Of course, grammatically speaking, “good” should really be “well” since it’s modifying the verb “listen” rather than a noun, but then if Forrest was trying to give a clue about the location being in a wooded area there’s not really a good word for a tree-covered area that rhymes with “well”. It makes me wonder if, when writing the poem, Forrest might have come up with the line “If you are brave and in the wood” before “So hear me all and listen good”.

    • Hi Dean;

      The cabinets are made of wood >>> This chair is made of wood.

      In each example, the wood used is processed wood. Wood that has been dried and cut to size in order to make a useful product.

      Also, there is petrified wood.

      I think that where Indulgence lies, one or both of these definitions of “wood” will apply. Not sure which one yet – Still figgerin’

      There is also an obscure definition of “In the wood” that is helpful in figuring out WWWsH – JMO – JDA

      • Speaking of processed wood, would a book or paper be in consideration of the same label? Being in TTOTC would be a great option for this crazy, yet simple, idea.

        Just throwing things up in the air and seeing what flies, or is it flys? I can never remember…..

      • I beleave I’ve Ben tolled (hee hee) that there is petrified wood in the Rocky Mountains.

    • @Dean – I’ll share my understanding of the whole stanza. My ideas, as some have pointed out, are different from the norm but, IMHO, are no less plausible than what others tend to share of their solves/thought processes.

      So hear me all and listen good = Here FF is telling us to pay attention to his poem, and I’ll add that he tells us exactly how to read it in stanza #1, which many-a-searcher consider as only some type of throw-away introduction to the backstory—to me it is the legend to the poem/map and contains the word that is key.

      Your effort will be worth the cold = At this point you should have already found the chest because of your mental and physical activities towards solving the poem (EFFORT), the sight of which will give you goosebumps (poetically called COLD). As an aside, this use of cold serves to hinder searchers efforts because they only identify cold as something environmental that they have to find and is an example of the simplistic “red herrings” prevalent within the poem that searchers themselves fall for due to their preconceived notions of words, the complexity of poem, etc.

      If you are brave and in the wood = Earlier in the poem we are told “From there it’s no place place for the meek.” Presumably, FF is telling us about that area for a reason, perhaps that we as a searcher may have to enter that area in our efforts to find the chest. It makes sense to me, then, that if we enter a place termed “No place for the meek”, we are being the opposite of same, hence BRAVE. Somewhere In this area we have entered is the chest (because we are following consecutive clues that lead us to same). Pictures of the chest show us that it is literally a wooden box with a bronze exterior, so when we open the lid to same, we are literally IN what FF poetically calls THE WOOD. As another aside, his use of wood here is another simplistic red-herring because many-a-searcher are looking for an environmental clue for wood.

      I give you title to the gold = because we are now peering inside the chest, there is quite literally an item which FF has included inside that legally transfers ownership of the chest and its contents to the finder and what FF poetically refers to as “title to the gold”. There is a specific ATF which seems to support this notion besides the one(s) where FF himself tells us that he tried to think of everything (and a signed, legally binding document that legally transfers ownership to the finder certainly would allow that finder to “Go in peace”) and it says “Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues.” I speculate that FF cannot say anymore about this secretive item because of the way I just “solved” the last stanza.

      IMHO

      • I am on the same page as you in many aspects as I think I have found the key word(s), and solved most of the poem including the location.
        I understand the idea of the red herrings to distract. I like the idea of in the wood, as in the box, and I agree with you that there will be legal title and not actually the treasure in the box.

        • @Dean – I did not mean to intimate that there is nothing in the chest but the “title”. Such item is in addition to all the gold, the key to the chest, etc.

          I believe FF when he says he carried it all in in two trips, etc.

      • Bowmarc ~*Pictures of the chest show us that it is literally a wooden box with a bronze exterior, so when we open the lid to same, we are literally IN what FF poetically calls THE WOOD. *

        How to you equate hoB with wood?
        In an audio interview { can’t find it at the moment } fenn was asked about what Brown is… he said in part, wood is in the poem too. Does wood have anything to do with hoB?

        So as you implied, if wood was a section of the chest how does it relate to the idea of possibly being related to Brown?

        The one idea of wood for me is the signal vs. plural version of Petrified Wood. There are petrified forest, be I never seen petrified woodS used. So I have a hard time with some who say Wood and Woods simply are the same meaning as forest or wooded area.

        As far as your ownership idea of the trove… I have really only come up with one idea for this “title” idea {that wouldn’t be ambiguous in law terms.} The bio may explain how the ownership is passed on {with a 30 day clause, that “lady Justice” would understand.} This “something saved” might be just that… a transfer of ownership within the bio.

        Q ~ “Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden?” ~ Mike

        A ~ “No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f ”

        What is transferable from an author?

        https://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest/

        • Any legalistic considerations may well not apply about 10,000 years in the future. But gold and gems may still be valuable then.

          As always, IMO.

        • @Seeker – I’m not sure how we made the leap from the last stanza all the way back to HOB because of the word wood, but I’ll make some comments none-the-less, and my idea(s) will again be off from the norm.

          To expand upon/clarify from my previous post about the last stanza, I’d like to add that FF has given us a double IF statement in that stanza. IF you are brave AND IF you are in the wood, you will be rewarded with title to his gold.

          In a broad sense of the understanding of that concept, sure, it is plausible that FF is just saying if you are BOTG (“…you are brave”) and are in some type of wooded area (“and in the wood”) that he has guided you to, you can have the chest. But this broad interpretation begs for another IF statement to be applied, that being IF you find the chest because you are seemingly only in some wooded area that conceivably must still be searched in its entirety to find the chest. That is a whole lot of searching for something that we are seemingly already to have found according to the poem and the author AND for being in the last stanza of the poem. I don’t have the exact quote to provide, but recently FF was asked about the meaning of tarry scant and he quipped that it meant to get the heck out of there fast. I don’t recall if it was also stated with the chest, but I do not see another reason to leave somewhere in a hurry without also having the chest as the reason to do so (sure, safety is priority #1, but I am relying on FF’s statements that it is not hidden in a dangerous locale, not somewhere an 80ish year old couldn’t go—you know the guidelines so please forgive my inexactness here.)

          My proposed interpretation is a much more elegant and simpler solve for that stanza as previously described. It recognizes that the chest has already been found because of the previous indicators from the poem (specifically stanza #4), FF’s recent quip about what tarry scant means from said stanza, and the fact that the last line of that stanza tells us to take the chest and go in peace.

          It also summarizes your TTOTC experience, from the thrill of finding the chest (the goosebumps you will have from finding it, which FF poetically describes as COLD), to the BOTG experiences you gained from getting that far (YOUR EFFORT + BRAVE because you have not only entered into FF’s NO PLACE FOR THE MEEK area, but correctly mentally solved the poem as well AKA BEEN WISE), and the feeling of PEACE you will have when you open the chest (IN THE WOOD) and find FF’s transfer of ownership paperwork (I GIVE YOU TITLE TO THE GOLD). It really does summarize the poem this way, rather than leaving the searcher still searching.

          But I get it, my solve cannot be correct because searchers absolutely need words/phrases like COLD & IN THE WOOD to be nothing more than environmental features, HOME OF BROWN as absolutely some reference to historical data of some sort from the known search states, and NO PADDLE UP YOUR CREEK as nothing more than a modified idiom which retains its original meaning despite the rearrangement of the words.

          With all that said, and in direct answer to your question(s) of how I am equating HOB to wood and the color brown, the answer is again quite simple.

          Brown is poetic for the chest.

          Brown is capitalized because it is being presented as a proper noun because it represents a unique thing.

          The home of Brown, then, is the spot where FF has placed the chest because the chest can be thought to be residing exactly where FF placed it for us to find.

          HOB, then, is the “place” that didn’t exist when FF was a kid because it couldn’t exist until FF hid the chest.

          HOB isn’t a structure, it is an imaginative description of where the chest is waiting to be found.

          HOB isn’t a clue.

          Before I get crucified (again—guess I’m a glutton for punishment) for having an opinion, consider these thoughts for a moment or two:

          FF worked on this poem for a long time. He architected it. Don’t you think he knew that the words he used, and how he chose to use/arrange them, would illicit a certain amount of preconceived understandings of how they appear and therefore how we chose to interpret/use them in our solves?

          Brown is a prime example. Think, really think, of the number of hours searchers have spent researching every instance of the surname Brown as it applies to the known search area. IF Brown is the chest, how many rabbit holes have you gone down in your efforts to solve the poem by thinking Brown is a surname? HOB has to be the ranger station. Nope, it has to be this gravemarker. Nope, it has to be the area where Molly Brown roamed. The list is endless IMO. Searching all of those instances of Brown is a wild goose chase that our preconceived notion of WHO Brown has to be has led us on—we have left the poem, and we have done so pretty early in the poem, so our further efforts from that point on only serve to lead us further and further astray as we move on to tackle other words and phrases in the poem that we “solve” based upon our preconceptions. Then you start adding these interpretations of Brown to the mix and get further led astray: Nope, it’s brown trout because FF loved to fish. Nope, it’s this beaver damn because beavers are brown and inhabit waterways. Nope, its this grizzly bear because he is brown. Nope, its this wood owl because not only is he brown, but also satisfies WISE in the poem.

          Invariably, someone is going to chime in that FF has said something to the effect that the poem is straight forward with no trickery/subterfuge (was that in response to a question you yourself asked Seeker?), and that using Brown to mean the chest as I just suggested is absolutely foul play by FF. How so? This is a difficult but not impossible puzzle of a poem to solve, one which we are told by the author to solve (in part) using imagination. Poetically referring to the chest as Brown (capitalized in accordance with rules of same because it is being used as a proper noun describing a specific thing) within a poem is not trickery, it is a poetic, imaginative, and grammatically correct use of a word to convey a specific message, a message upon which we use our own filter systems to confuse—that’s us fooling ourselves, not FF using trickery—and is something I imagine FF gets a laugh out of knowing full well that it is us who are making this thing more difficult than it has to be. That right there is something I am sure he figured into his architecture of his poem, and Brown is just one example of how we lead ourselves astray. I’d also add that by using this particular valid reason to capitalize Brown, and also letting all of us know that he likes to bend words, punctuate in a funny manner (placing the period to end his sentence after the page number, for instance), etc. he has given us the opportunity to again lead ourselves astray because we want to associate that to our reading/understanding of the poem—again, if that leads us astray it is of our own doing because we were the ones who made the association.

          To wrap it up, I am saying that the one thing he doesn’t want to mention et al is some sort of document poetically referred to as “title to the gold” within the poem. I’m not an attorney, but there must be some sort of document that can transfer ownership of clearly identified objects from one person to another. FF expanding upon his “Oops…” ATF would reveal some of the architecture of the poem as I have just attempted to describe so his only safe answer was the “Oops” one already given.

          That’s my take.

          Thanks for the conversation.

          IMHO

          • Bowmarc,

            So….we meet again.

            I am actually surprised no one has responded to this post of yours already. I am not an FF quote expert but I am aware of a potential retort to theory of Brown you describe above. But, I must say, if not for the FF quote (which will get to) I thoroughly like the idea you have described so well. I had made a similar consideration early on, and it certainly remains an open possibility. Which is why I have to ask, how do we wrestle FF;s response to being asked who Brown is when he said something to the effect that if he told us that we would go straight to the chest. I believe Zap could provide the exact quote and a corresponding link. Sorry, Zap don’t mean to involuntary recruit your assistance here but you have the quotes well documented.

            I very much like the idea of Brown referring t the chest., except for this particular quote. I’m wondering what your take is. Otherwise, there are indeed endless surname Browns or place name Browns or Brown Trout locations……etc., etc. I feel the term Brown is somehow more meaningful to FF if only because of the capitalization, just as the hiding spot is special to him. If nothing else, it is a sign of respect to someone, something, or some place if it doesn’t refer to the chest. Who, what or where would he have enough respect for to pay tribute to in the poem and the Chase?

            And just for giggles, I know exactly where FF hid the treasure……inside the chest!!!!! 🙂

            Okay. That is all for now. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Straight forward and to the point, BowMarc.
            You grilled it well-done.

            I will say it quietly – THROW AWAY YOUR DICTIONARY. Read the poem for what it is and refer to the book for a bit of guidance.

            Is it time to flip the steak?
            www

          • @Ann – Hello again. I am well aware of the ATF you mentioned. It is actually from a video. If no one has already done so, let me tell you of a site you can use that is a good source of FF information/quotes (second only to Zap, but he isn’t always readily available like the website—-all IMHO of course…ROFL). It is tarryscant.com and you can type in words and search for quotes, etc.

            For me it is a matter of context. Just prior to FF’s answer, the interviewer made a verbal blunder when she mentions things from the poem and makes the comment “…there is a reference to Brown’s house.”

            And here is where we may again debate semantics and tolerances.

            I do not see any mention of “Brown’s house” in the poem, do you?

            London (the interviewer) immediately follows that blunder with her question of “Who’s Brown”.

            FF: “Well, that’s for you to find. If I told you that, you’d go right to the chest.”

            Please take notice that FF’s response does not mirror her question, meaning he uses the word “that” instead of “who” in his response. I readily concede his using the word “that” is an acceptable answer, but I don’t want acceptable, I want the truth (“You can’t handle the truth!”—sorry, I digress with another great movie quote) so please allow me to continue.

            If the chest is Brown as I suggest, FF would be providing misinformation about TTOTC if he responded to her using who because he knows that the chest is Brown and where he hid it is what he is terming HOB—he is the author and architect of the poem, afterall.

            Since he does know those two things, his safest answer is the one he provided. It also a 100% truthful response.
            In anticipation of a counter argument from you at this point in the discussion, I can see you asking how the piece about going straight to the chest from FF’s response is valid/truthful.

            The answer is you have to change your way of thinking to FF’s mindset. If he answered her question by correcting her and revealing to us the chest is Brown, isn’t that literally taking us straight to the chest because they are one and the same thing? And he didn’t say we would physically go straight to the chest, did he? Instead, I assert it is the understanding of Brown = the chest that is truth behind his statement, cleverly hidden behind an acceptable answer.

            Understanding this concept reveals a great deal about the architecture of the poem.

            Not understanding this concept leads one down many a rabbit hole researching a gazillion Browns that have nothing to do with finding the chest, causes you to leave the poem in your BOTG efforts, etc.

            And now we will kinda come full circle in our interactions here on HOD.

            Our infamous “complete sentence” quibblefest.
            Put in below the home of Brown.

            When you understand that Brown is the chest, it dramatically changes how you read and follow that sentence. Our search emphasis necessarily shifts away from Brown and lands squarely on the other information from the sentence—the command/instruction to “Put in below”.

            Since we know HOB is where the chest is, we can correctly orient ourselves to the actual clues surrounding the HOB language.

            Put another way by FF himself: “A clue will point you toward the treasure chest, and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            Well, logically speaking (though I’m no logician), if Brown is the chest, HOB becomes the place where the chest is hidden. That makes HOB a hint because the chest cannot point towards itself according to FF’s own words. Therefore, PIB becomes the focus of that sentence and absolutely points us towards the treasure chest because of the HOB language being about the chest to begin with.

            And do you see how the hint has helped with the clue? It has done so by eliminating itself from consideration as a clue, freeing us up to concentrate on actual clues cleverly hidden amongst the spiderweb of words FF has lain out before us.

            Perhaps you understand a little better, now, why I made my comment to LL in the first place.

            Regardless of all that, I’d also like to point out to watch FF’s non-verbals in the video to really make all this come full circle. The information regarding the quote we are talking about starts around the 10:45 mark.

            As London makes her comments about stuff in the poem (including her blunder which FF would pick up on immediately because there is no Brown’s house), notice FF makes the comment “There’s references to wood”, then gets a twinkle in his eye and a slight grin. If “in the wood” is also as I describe it, FF already knows that London is quite literally clueless about how to interpret his poem because of her “Brown’s house” comment being a grossly inaccurate interpretation of the words, so his sly insertion of those 4 seemingly simple words is a nod towards another part of the poem that gets grossly misinterpreted for the reason(s) I explained above.

            It all boils down to us leading ourselves astray of FF’s words, a fact he relied upon to make his poem difficult but not impossible. That reliance is not trickery on FF’s part, it is his understanding of human nature and us making the task at hand harder than it has to be.

            It’s all simply complex, I tell ya, and FF is indeed a Grand Master Wordsmith.

            IMHO

          • Bowmarc,

            Quite the extensive explanation. More than was perhaps necessary, but thorough nonetheless. You have a well thought out theory. I will try to be brief in my remarks here as they are neither a retort or contestation of your theory.

            I see where you validate FF’s quote with the chest still being Brown. And I am glad you acknowledge it is a reasonable response even if Brown were to be referring to a person as in:
            Q: “Who’s that?”
            A: “If I told you that, you’d already know.”

            I don’t think FF’s use of the term “that” is all that significant, but rather typical when referring to a piece of information in general. Supposing your theory to be correct, I would consider this interpretation of “that” to be a big “if.” Possible, but not probable.

            Because of the big “if” described above I had not given much thought to your preemptive counter to an argument I wasn’t going to make. And I will not make it here. I will only note that your theory here too relies on another “if.” This time it’s the interpretation of put in below. You are taking it to be a directive. Whether HOB refers to a proper Brown or the resting place of the chest, it is possible that put In below is referential as opposed to directive, as in the home of Brown is put in below. It could also be referential as in the chest is put in below the home of Brown. Of these three possibilities (and I am sure others could articulate more) I am inclined to lean toward the second or middle one, and that is really based on the stand alone nature of the line.

            Despite our difference of opinion on the line as a whole, I do enjoy the thought of Brown referring to the chest, though that would not leave much for a searcher to go on between WWWH and the blaze really.

            If Brown is not some physicality on te Chase, but merely the final resting place being alluded to off in the distance, then a searcher could be standing at WWWH taking in the view of the canyon down where yonder home of Brown is not far but too far to walk. And all that would remain is not paddling up a creek, some heavy loads and water high, and then behold the blaze and presumably the HOB.

            In short, your HOB theory could potentially change the entre nature of the poem really. But, like all the other ideas put forward to date, what if right?

            I’m guessing FF meant quite literally that if he told us what Brown means we would very well be able to go straight to the chest, whether that would provide us with an immediate search area or something even more specific. Without knowing more I won’t speculate how knowing Brown could lead one to the chest. I suppose if I knew that, I would already know where to go! Because whether I knew where to go or how to get there, i’d make it either way.

            Your comment to LL is certainly clarified by this expository, though, that being the case, well misplaced since LL was talking about line 8 in an entirely different context.

            I recall here that FF had a name for the chest, though I don’t recall the name. Why do you suppose he would call it Brown in the poem instead? And please don’t say for rhyming reasons. If he is the “Grand Master Wordsmith” you credit him as being, then surely he could have figured a way to fit the name of the chest in somehow, or at least alluded to it by use of the capitalization instead of changing it over to Brown as your theory suggests. I had to add that last bit so as not confuse readers of this post about what FF has called the chest.

            And all IMO of course

            -Ann

          • So, you think that a clever searcher should “put in below the place where the TC is?” With virtually no other info to guide us to where that place is? Good luck with that. Enjoy your “expensive vacation” search trips. All IMO.

          • @TA – FF has provided us with 9 clues for how to get to the chest. Understanding the correct concept/architecture of HOB line helps with all of those 9 clues to precisely lead us to the treasure.

            I’m not sure how you misunderstood the discussion here, but perhaps you should stick to playing canasta because you might be in over your head.

            IMO

          • @Ann – I believe it was you yourself who wanted clarity/transparency here on HOD and I do like to try to be thorough, so my responses tend to be that way as I try to add as much detail, thought, and possible evidence as I can without giving the whole farm away. When I cannot, perhaps my responses have some of their own wordsmithing involved. I do have other stronger indicators for why I think my Brown = chest has merit, but I will be keeping that information confidential out of necessity.

            I cannot find any other quotes by FF where he is making a direct response about the who/what nature of Brown other than the one we have already discussed. I’ll stand by the plausibility of each of the interpretations presented.

            However, here is another quote regarding HOB that I find interesting, especially if one subscribes to Brown = chest:

            “The internet abounds with a supposed statement from you, saying to ‘think big’, particularly about the home of Brown. Did you ever say that? Is that a ‘fact’ that I can add to my page? Kindest regards from the rainy UK! Stanley”

            “Stanley, I don’t remember saying that related to the treasure and can’t imagine why I would. F”

            If we aren’t thinking big about the treasure, perhaps thinking small is the way to go (it is only reported to be 10” x 10” x 5” afterall) AKA Brown = chest?

            And here is another ATF that ties in to that concept as well:

            FF: “Your destination is small, but its location is huge.” Well, the chest is the destination, right, and is pretty darn small? Knowing that Brown = chest makes HOB read like I have presented (the location is huge because that is where you will find the chest and know that you have successfully solved FF’s poem), and as you have stated, changes the nature of the poem.
            Let’s switch gears and talk clue count for a moment. I’m not asking nor really telling what the clues are, just presenting what has been stated by FF albeit not exactly word for word. We know what the first clue definitely is. The PIBTHOB line is in the same stanza as the known first clue. We also know that the first couple of clues have been solved and searchers were close to the chest but went by it and the other clues somehow. As I have described the PIBTHOB line, it is plausible that those people went on by because this is the point in the poem that they misinterpreted.

            Back on point from your reply and your posit that the PIB is referential as opposed to directional. The context of the lines surrounding the PIBTHOB line suggest directionality to me. I’ll leave that for you to ponder/intuit on your own, but the gist of it is that we are presented with a description of distance that is not very great but impossible to walk, directed where to correctly orient on/approach that spot just described, then given directions “From there…”.

            Lastly, let’s talk about the name of the chest.

            FF used to call it Tarzan.

            Searchers began calling it Indulgence, and that is the name that has stuck with it since.

            I’m surprised you had to ask why FF wouldn’t just come out and use actual names, etc. when he architected a puzzle of a poem for over 15 years that leads a very rewarding prize for solving same. That would kinda turn it into a race to the finish line rather than TTOTC, don’t ya think?

            Begin it at Glacier National Park (WWWH)…..

            If only it really were that simple.

            The fact that FF had a name for the chest, and even has one for the bracelet in the chest that he would like to have back, is evidence that he does like to name inanimate objects, so maybe poetically calling it Brown isn’t such a stretch?

            Food for thought, an IMHO.

          • Bowmarc,

            I understand not wanting t divulge every detail of your thoughts. I appreciate what others do share however much that may be.

            I think I would be more inclined to support the Brown=chest theory if your confirmation of this idea didn’t rely on ATFs. Nothing in the poem and certainly FF never having called it Brown do not support such a theory, at least in no obvious manner. But as you have confidential reasons for making that connection then so be it. I would caution against potential confirmation bias.

            As for identifying the 9 clues, that paragraph wasn’t much help. I have yet to see anyone suggest what they feel the nine clues may be let alone confirm them. I think I will work on coming up with my own list to post to set the example. I haven’t had much time to put forth the effort of some here. But I will compile a possible list of the clues and see what everyone thinks. It’s not like it will be a definitive list or anything.

            As for line 8 being referential or directional, I make no definitive claim either way. I just lean toward the former, which btw can lead one to take direction. Referential and directional do not have to be polarizing terms. It doesn’t have to be an either or situation. I just don’t take the words “put in” to be instructional verbiage or a nautical reference as opposed to informational verbiage. And that is in lieu of the entire stanza. You should read one of my posts about the art class!

            In regards to names I only meant the chest and not any of the other clues. If the one thing FF was going to name in the poem was the chest why choose Brown, and not something more in line with what he has actually called the chest. He could have use Treasure with a capital T to allude to Tarzan for example. Brown has no meaning to the chest essentially other than one you may be giving it. Has FF ever called bronze brown? Or gold brown? Or anything else brown in a context that may indicate how we are to take Brown in the poem? That would certainly be more compelling.

            And FF did give us a specific place to look so the idea that naming a place would be a direct path to the chest is erroneous. We know it’s somewhere in the Rockies north of Santa Fe. Depends on what that named place refers to doesn’t it?

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • AnnO…in regards to people discussing The 9 Clues – if you are interested, you will find that thread under searcher discussions and something like 44 archived threads. Literally 1000s of posts by searchers discussing The 9 Clues. And good of Bowmarc to remind you of Tarryscant.com. Hope this helps.

          • @Ann – Thanks for understanding that others cannot always share every aspect of the information they have potentially gleaned from their efforts at solving TTOTC.

            I, like many other searchers, use ATFs as a sort of checks & balances for ideas/tangents regarding TTOTC. Does that mean that every word uttered by FF is a hint/clue? No, certainly not, but when he is answering questions about TTOTC, or being interviewed about same, some sort of connectivity is involved. We sometimes need to examine those ATF’s to see what possibilities make them true as I believe FF is an honest man when he speaks about TTOTC, but he doesn’t always say things in an obvious way, much to the chagrin of many a searcher because his answers/comments often raise more questions than they answer. That’s FF still being the Grand Master Wordsmith.

            I find it hypocritical that you questioned my premise of Brown = the chest by attempting to quote an ATF to refute/negate my premise yet disapprove of my use of other ATF’s to attempt to validate same, something which I thought I did in a cohesive and plausible manner.

            My paragraph about the clues was intended to show how close in the poem the known first clue is to the line we have been discussing. I didn’t want to force a clue count upon you nor demand one from you, but merely point out that solving 2 clues got people close to the treasure and then they failed somehow to find it, going right past the other 7 clues. If PIBTHOB is comprised of any sort of data that can correctly be called a clue, and depending on how many clues you attribute to the line prior to this one, perhaps PIBTHOB is being misinterpreted and it is at this point that searchers go astray from finding it. An interpretation such as mine emphasizes the data in the PIBTHOB a different way and is a plausible reason for why they went astray so early in the solve process. I look forward to your list of 9 clues, and if ya look around you will certainly find other searchers who have posted their lists as well.

            I get the gist of your referential versus directional paragraph. You have your understanding/preference, and I have mine, and the flow of information in mine narrows the scope and breadth of the search area just fine between the stanzas. I’m not a fan of the nautical sense of put in myself, but the wording certainly is another example of something searchers can debate until they are blue in the face. That, to me, is another example of wordsmithing by FF where he is giving us the opportunity to be our own worst enemy in our effort to solve the poem. Direct me to one of your posts about the art class and I’ll be happy to read same.

            I think you are quick to forget that this thing is a poem and a puzzle with a very valuable prize as one of the rewards for solving same. Such are 2 conditions which should be accounted for/considered within anyone’s solve process and is what I am attempting to do with mine. For the record, I’m ok with not being able to sell you or anyone else my ideas. FF had to find a poetic and riddley way to make his TTOTC difficult but not impossible. Spoon feeding us clues by direct/obvious means seems contrary to his widely publicized intent. The exception to this statement is the application of the instructions FF has left for us about how to read his poem, and it is these instructions which allow for my HOB premise to be valid according to FF’s own words in the poem. Have you seen pictures of the chest? At first glance, what color would you say it is? Perhaps your color palette goes into millions of shades each with distinctive names, but for all intents and purposes, brown is a plausible descriptor. You’ve already heard the rest of the story. And although you originally forbade me from using the rhyming argument as a reason, the architected poem apparently needed down as one of the words, and since the architect himself didn’t want this thing to be solved haphazardly on spring break or a weekend picnic, what is so wrong with poetically calling the chest Brown to help it last longer than a weekend excursion into the RM’s?

            And giving us the RM’s as a search area is not the same scale as revealing who/what HOB means. Revealing same can either take us right to the chest because it is a specific area, or it can provide an understanding of the architecture of the poem which then allows us to unlock and solve the poem. I’m currently using the latter.

            “I like where I’m at on my back floating down in my own riptide—the water is fine”.

            IMO

          • Bowmarc,

            Anyone is capable of sharing, I understand reluctance to do so. 🙂

            I explicitly said I was not making the counterargument. My use of th ATF you found hypocritical was for clarification on your end seeing as how, such could be viewed to contrast your theory. And while ATFs are informative, they ought not be used in justifying (or dismissing) resolution of the Chase. They are ATF after all!

            You did not force a clue count. I have been frustrated by the lack of definition of the nine clues. Sally may certainly have pointed me to some useful discussion which I have yet to check out.

            Thank you Sally!

            But, the bottom line is, we don’t really even have the nine clues pinned down for sure. There is as much guesswork in what they are (in terms of words or lines from the poem) as there is in what they mean! Seems before a problem can be solved it must first be defined.

            That brings me to your Wordsmith homage. I will only say that if you are right, then it is likely the poem is not so easy a child could do it. I don’t believe FF went to such lengths as to make it impossible, least of all to children. This notion that FF is some magical word worker or word puzzler is tiresome. He simply is a man who had an adventurous idea, wrote a poem constructed of simple words describing where he hid a chest, and set it before the world to figure out where he was talking about in it. This Chase is not for the English majors of the world, but rather the redneck from Texas with 12 kids and a pickup truck. And without stereotyping, let’s just say it’s meant even for children to partake.

            Your extended justifications for Brown=chest are not reassuring. If FF was the Wordsmith you credit him to be he would not have had to choose Brown to rhyme with down. I have met more than a few who thought they could write a great poem one line at a time just by picking words that rhymed. And yes, while poems may be written in such a manner, they tend not ot be constructed in the careful manner you believe FF constructed his poem. Talk about hypocrisy!

            My use of FF naming the RMs was illustrative not argumentative. In fact pretty much everything I post is illustrative. But to your point, clearly you believe knowing HOB is more crucial than RMs. Perhaps. If I knew who/what Brown was I would likely go straight to the chest! And not in some fanciful “helps me solve the poem” sort of manner. Likely because it refers to something very specific.

            You asked about my art class. My previous posts are scattered and I don’t keep track so I will just explain it here. And it goes to how we all view the poem and the different ways in which everyone is solving it. It is also an illustration of semantics.

            You have an art class with 30 students in it. There is a bowl of fruit on a table and the 30 students are told to paint what they see. What is the result of this exercise?

            The result of this illustration is a series of questions:
            1. Of the 30 paintings, are any of them exactly the same?
            2. Of the 30 paintings, which one best represents the original scene (bowl of fruit on table)?
            3. Do any of the 30 paintings represent the scene exactly as it appears?
            3. This last question, while not part of the original illustration, I am adding here for the smart you know whats! What about the student who literally painted the bowl of fruit and the table!?! (Paint what you see.)

            You can answer these questions to yourself. If you understand this illustration, you understand semantics. And you also understand my not so critical posts of sharing our paintings. While each of us is painting a very different picture, I will only note that none of us possess the bowl of fruit on the table.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

      • WOW, reading all this makes me dizzy Bowmarc. I feel like I have been lifted up and dropped on my head. Seems to include lot of specklednation just to fill in holes around some possible sensible thinking. I reckon if you have to guess in the gaps then the theory wont hold up in the end. You deserve an A for imagination though.

        • Well that is one of the ingredients FF himself tells us is needed to solve this thing. Perhaps when you un-dizzy yourself, you’ll see and think and imagine a little better.

          • The Mrs thinks I live in a cartoon at the best of times, so I might just qualify on the imagination front. I have a few versions of the same solve. One travels days, another hours and the last a shorter time. The longest one even works in reverse. It has always seemed too easy, so have been looking for the missing joker. I have been using my smallest dog as an abacus, cutting off each leg and stitching it back on then removing another and repeat. It now walks around like a discombobulated ferret. My other dogs are looking at me worried, but a man needs to count. I have thought of other variables, but those identified are naturally moving targets and change all the time. At the moment I feel like the guy off Rain Man, looking for second base. I will be in deep thought this week though!

    • Well the question is in fact either a question, a joke or both. The half you crossed is relative to the starting position. Leaves do grow on trees.

    • Hi Dean: I think Dal and I are in agreement that on its surface, “in the wood” is equivalent to “in the woods.” The former seems to be a bit more poetic or even folksy. I heard both interchangeably growing up in Virginia, and I suspect the same may be done in Texas.

      As Blex mentioned, “a wood” can also refer to a copse of trees — not as expansive as a forest, but more than a cluster of a few trees. Think Winnie the Pooh’s “Hundred Acre Wood.”

      But with Forrest you can never be sure he isn’t going for dual or triple meanings that all apply (reminds me of cryptic crossword puzzles). For instance, I’ve heard that “in the wood” in the game of darts is slang for a bullseye. In archery, the bullseye is also called “gold” — which would tie in nicely with the fact that gold literally awaits us at Forrest’s bullseye.

      • good thoughts! And yes, in the wood does mean bullseye in darts, as the bullseye was made of wood back in the day.

        • Imagine that you have found the blaze.
          You are now looking down at the chest location some distance away.
          Let us say the chest is resting in some large rock formation.
          You must now go down and somehow navigate across the creek and through the heavy wooded area to get to that location.
          This is how you are brave and in the wood.

    • Dean, I’m sure you have researched Eric Sloane? Reverence for wood. Research “seek-no-further” tree. Maybe that will give you an idea of what the chest resting spot might look like.

      • I believe you nailed it… Wood to Eric was important and treasured. It is old Wood, the kind left after a tree falls, felled Wood or Firewood,. IMO

        • If you have been Wise and found the blaze,
          If you are brave and in the wood,

          Forrest said consider the What Ifs…
          Well I believe blaze and wood go together in my opinion, now ponder this… Fire Wood

        • Yup, and the name fits. Old, dying wood gives way to young, fresh sprouting trees. Plus, some of the pictures on-line of a “seek-no-further” tree looks pretty intimidating. Maybe not so if you’re a bug or creepy crawly. To have to go in there to fetch the chest seems pretty “brave” to me. Lol, to bad they are so common in the Rockies. So many thoughts about “in the wood”, I guess just take the one that fits a searcher’s solve. (I like seek-no-further)

    • His coaches name was Wood. He said that Coach Wood taught him to never give up. If you are brave and dont give up…

    • In my honest opinion, I believe it was used singular to signify a specific problem that the person who finds the chest may likely encounter. If you are out of the woods…well we all know what that means. So in the wood means that you are in trouble for something specific. Again, IMHO.

    • Dean, I have also wondered about this perplexing line of the poem. Another puzzling and possibly important line in my opinion is “Your effort will be worth the cold”, which is just above the “wood” line. Maybe there is some connection between these two words “wood” and “cold”. I know that many people associate these two words with the treasure chest itself or getting wet wading a cold mountain stream, but I am skeptical. I really don’t think that Forrest meant that people should have to experience cold in a literal sense. Cold could be an abstract concept. Like relating to someone else’s historic experience vicariously (for example, Lewis and Clark experienced extreme hardships and cold).

      I think there may be more of a clue in these two lines regarding where to start than most people realize. Just what that is, I don’t claim to know at this point. I do know that the word wood can refer to an individual stand of trees as opposed to a larger forest. But what keeps nagging at me is the opposition of words in the poem with alternative capitalization. Like for example Meek versus meek, Wood versus wood, Brown versus brown etc.

  3. Edit

    Should’ve been only one refer….

    No disrespect to Chynthia on the Chinthia ( my phone seems to have a behavioral problem! Perhaps it’s jealous?)

    …and provenance not providence.

  4. From Distant Logic:
    The one thing I keep thinking about relating to the size of the search area is the repeated statement by f to “drive to WWH” or “drive to the first clue”.

    Been chasing for almost 3 years now and i do not recall any statement directly from F where we need to drive to WWWH or even if we can. My understanding is it’s “Not far, but too far to walk” which does not say take a car, boat or anything else but just be knowing it is at the upper end of a canyon north of Sante Fe. Can anyone show me diffrent? Maybe i missed something.

    • I wouldn’t assume that WWWH is “at the upper end of a canyon”. But it does seem reasonable to me that there should be a canyon relatively close to WWWH, so a solver/searcher could associate a canyon with a prospective
      choice of location for WWWH. Good luck.

  5. librarylady, I’d like to respond to your long post on the previous Odds and Ends about using all of the resources available to find the treasure. I’ll start by saying I don’t think it will hurt to read all of the books and the plethora of information online if a searcher has the time to do so. I enjoy reading Fenn’s writings. Am I going to study all of it in hopes of finding hints that help me find the chest? Nope. FF himself tells us how to find the treasure, over and over again. He even tells us that TTOTC will only provide hints that helps with the clues. Even if I had the time to study all of the material available I wouldn’t be doing what the hider of the treasure suggest I do. The best thing we can do is read TTOTC and the poem, study maps, and try to marry the poem to the map. Here are numerous quotes that backs all of this up. The desire to keep it simple quote should be adhered to.

    “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” https://www.businessinsider.com/forrest-fenn-fortune-hidden-rocky-mountains-2017-2

    “If a person reads the poem over and over…and are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, they can find the treasure chest. It may not be easy, but it certainly isn’t impossible. I could go right straight to it.”

    Are there any suggestions you would give in approaching the clues and solving them? ~Craig Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental. http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-author-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    Q~ Does somebody need to read your book to find the treasure or all the clues exist within the poem? A~ “they don’t need to read my book,, but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, ** But they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.” https://soundcloud.com/wlvq-mornings/forrest-fenn-edited

    “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oLzi4fpw_A

    All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. F” https://dalneitzel.com/2013/04/04/the-nine-clues-part-twentytwo/

    Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues. https://clubthrifty.com/forrest-fenn-an-interview/

      • Aaron, thank you for your reply, you did find more quotes than I have come across that focus more strictly on using only the poem. However, you also included several quotes where Forrest said the book could help you follow the clues and that you should read the book first, then read the poem over and over and then read the book again to look for hints to help solve the clues So I think it is fine to either use only the poem or to use the books to help you. I do feel that FF phrased the last three quotes on your list in a certain way to make sure that searchers understand that the poem itself is the most important. For me, I actually used just the poem for quite some time but once I felt I had most clues solved (IMO only of course) I then went to the book and found it extremely helpful in confirming my solve (again IMO). That is why, although as I said I think it’s fine to do it either way, I hate to see some searchers actively discourage others from using the book(s) at all. The book may not seem that helpful to one person, especially if one doesn’t find find hints confirming one’s own solve, but do we really have the right to tell another searcher that the book won’t help them with their solve, since we don’t know what their solve is? IMO their is more helpful info in the books than most searchers ever realize, not just those hints, subtle or otherwise, and as I said in my other comment, some of the most important parts have to do with why he hid this treasure. IMO this is huge in figuring out not only the correct blaze, but the last parts of the poem and the actual treasure location.

        • librarylady, despite reading TTOTC several times I didn’t find any hints that lead me to clues. After coming up with my recent solution I have found some confirmation as well, whether it’s just confirmation bias is yet to be determined. Again, I’m only referring to TTOTC, and not other books.

          • Aaron, first of all my apologies for the run on sentences and lack of punctuation in my last reply. I was in a hurry but I sure made it hard to read. It’s good to hear you are finding some confirmation, best of luck in your solve!. Like you, I am also aware of the dangers of confirmation bias. As I mentioned in my original reply to BEC and others, I am trying not to depend only on confirmation from hints in the books but trying to compare my solution to as many FF quotes as possible to make sure it holds up. And I won’t know for sure if I’m even on the right track until my search partners go BOTG this summer–I am just the research part of the team due to my disabilities, but it has been a lot of fun.
            It’s probably kind of humorous when we searchers argue over the merits of using ONLY the poem or ONLY using poem plus books. Most of use online sources as much or more as we do the poem or the books, and we use them deliberately to help us with the clues in the poem or the hints, plus to get ideas from other searchers regarding poem or hints. Maybe it’s a bit rediculous for most of us to pretend we are purists regarding poem or books. So each to his or her own methods and happy hunting! I really do enjoy interacting with everyone on this blog, and have learned a lot from numerous online sources so I’m certainly happy they exist. And Forrest’s stories are awesome whether the hints are helpful or not. I sure wish I could meet him in person!

          • It is a little funny to go back and forth over these subjects. Wish FF could just step in and settle this, lol. The interaction is fun indeed regardless.

  6. “So hear me all and listen good – If you are brave and in the wood”
    So what about this for an idea to what Forrest is saying; and based off of what may have been said to him by a parent, a teacher etc. (There are many “Sayings” that are either no longer used, or rarely used now, but might possibly relate?)

    “Eyes open, mouth shut, ‘listen up’.”

    Is Forrest telling us something like this when he says: “So hear me all and listen good”? Is there something we will hear from the right location, but we need to be still, making no sound of our own and keeping our eyes open so we can focus in on what we are hearing? Forrest does make mention of the TC hearing the tromp of boots again some time. Maybe we are walking somewhere that our footsteps will now sound different? i.e. footsteps in the leaf litter of a stand of aspens will sound different from footsteps in a pine needle covered forest floor. What type of “wood” will require us to listen to notice the difference? He also mentions being worth the cold… how many of our senses might be required to be in play to know we have found the spot? If we are out in the hot sun of summer, maybe when we are under the right canopy in the forest, we will feel the cool relief (maybe even dampness) it provides? Our footsteps sound different? And if our eyes are open we may “see” what drew Forrest to this location?
    Of course one could also take the last word of each line and assume that the “cold gold” (metal in a shaded area would be cold to the touch), is waiting in some “good wood” {hard wood trees?}

    • HotL;

      The other night, I was thinking about this line, and at the same time, thinking about the golden frogs that Forrest seems to like or even love. What if we need to listen for the sound of little frogs chirping? I know it sounds silly, but Forrest has said that “it is wet.” Maybe the “wet” place we are looking for has a few little frogs chirping>>> Maybe THAT is why we need to wait until the snow melts – 🙂 JDA

      • JDA;

        Now there is an idea that I think has some real merit to it. Just thinking too of all the other frog motifs Forrest has used in his creations. For that matter, I guess it could be a “Fenn-ish” area. (Fen). A very common wetland area… and I imagine one could find a Fen in their neck of the Wood – Woods – I mean search area. 😉

        You may be right that a frog may “blaze” the way?
        Now waiting impatiently for spring – hope I don’t ‘croak’ before I get a chance to do some BOTG of my own some day.

  7. My thought process has been that the materials needed are poem, good map or google earth. Treasure clues in poem are like a road map and sequential. Driving, flying, bike ride, or parachute is needed to BOTG at first clue, stated as WWWH by Mr. Fenn. Therefore place on map you can drive to is a WWWH. IMO

  8. HotL I think that when you find the blaze – the blaze means fire – heat , I think that he means- is get away from the fire ( and the fire is just a figure of speech) – to me it says , when you find the blaze keep going to where the treasure chest is – your efforts will be worth the cold— frank

  9. I think they are talking about a blaze that is used in path finding, like a mark on a tree, or a stack of rocks that looks natural but is enough noticeable that it is sort of out of place. A tree mark would not work as it would not last long, even a stack of rocks could accidentally be knocked over, so apparently, it must be a physical mark in the landscape that will be there for a long time.

  10. Dean- I think you have the right idea , I would go with the physical mark in the landscape —-frank

  11. I have read where most of you on this blog , have found hints in TTOTC that helped with SOME of your clue`s , and so have I , but there are at least 3 clue`s that i can`t seem to find any hint`s for , the main one being HOME OF BROWN , I believe i have a good hob in my solve but just wanted something more to reassure my thoughts . are ya`ll having the same trouble ?

    • Hi JPE: well, since you asked, it’s a “no” for me. I have hints for every clue: the starting point, the canyon, the general area, NFBTFTW, home of Brown, no place for the meek, no paddle up your creek, water high, and most importantly the blaze. But I wouldn’t let that deter you — there is no guarantee that Forrest has left such hints for every clue.

    • Home of Brown is a very tough one to figure out, and who knows yet if I have. I have found one subtle hint to it in TTOTC.

      • Aaron,

        Home of Brown could definitely be a challenge to figure out, though if one does not have the correct one, I suppose one would not be able to put the other clues in their place.
        From another post of yours it sure made me think that the solve I have in the back of my mind sure sounded like it fit yours – though the hint you left was subtle – am unable to walk that far (botg) though I don’t know I would have to. Just want to figure out the home of the TC.
        Happy hunting!

          • Aaron,
            Was my thought as well that hoB didn’t need to be walked to. (should the solve be laid out the way I have married it to the poem) My botg opportunity is pretty much non existent at this time due to an ill spouse. – My real treasure – I do not think that “home” is the word that is key in the sense of the solve of the poem. However, I do think that “Home” is the key to Forrest’s happiness – his wife and family and all kinds of good memories. (I recall his reluctance to call in a copter to rescue him – not wanting to risk others lives, but his thoughts of Peggy seem to be what made him realize the risk was worth more than his life alone). I do not for a moment believe Forrest would have left his ‘trove’ for all to find if the gold and other items in the TC are what has the most meaning in his life. (Though I think the bracelet is a treasure he wants back, not due to any monetary value, but rather how much he values memories related to it, and maybe then to pass that item to someone special to him to remember him by – I guess he said he would buy it back from the finder if I understand correctly… but to me… it would be something I would be happy to give back.) Sorry for the ramble. Anyway, I like your thoughts you have shared in recent posts as again things seem to line up with what I was thinking as well – so am expecting some results from your search.
            I already owe a debt to Forrest. For that matter to Dal {his blog} and so many of the other searchers here. I have had a chance to learn (some times re-learn) so many things. I have been given a chance to dream and explore and share in adventures – new and old –
            Forrest has inspired me to begin writing my own memoirs and to both record, and to write, those of my wife as well. I must say I don’t have the gift of expression that Forrest has, but our stories may at least let the grandchildren get to know us better. Forrest has given me the chance to use my ol’ noggin – which has also brought respite from the worries, concerns and challenges – and long hours in the hospital or even at home during the tougher times. A gift from Forrest he didn’t even know he had given.
            Anyway, that being said, the word that is key? IMO: The word that is key will not be discovered “in” the poem by a searcher until they have all but solved the poem. I know, this will just compound the complexity for some – if I even know what I am talking about.

          • Wife and family is indeed a real treasure HotL.

            After my search this summer I feel like I can share the results treasure found or not. I’ve gone on about 20 searches using various solve methods, and this one is by far the best I’ve come up with, and probably the best I can come up with.

            I hope you get your BOTG experience some day.

        • I do, thanks PI. What I think could be a hint doesn’t exactly qualify as giving a correct answer for hoB. It is hard to explain really but I would not have noticed it without identifying my hoB first. Of course I could be wrong about the hint and / or the hoB.

      • Aaron – if you go west from wwwh , you will run in to the only man made structure and just a few steps to the south you will find hob imo

        • In my opinion, frank, I have seen several man made structures. the Washington Monument and the Golden Gate Bridge come to
          mind. And frankly, I didn’t give a dam as an example. All IMO.

    • JPE, it took numerous readings but I did find hints kin TTOTCfor most of what IMO are the clues in the poem, and found more confirmation in hints in the other two books. but I also never found a hint that I thought specifically was for HOB. There were hints that for me confirmed places nearby, seeming to confirm the right general area for that and all the clues but until recently I did not find a hint to confirm my chosen HOB–I just chose it because it was down canyon from what I believe is WWWH, so I went with it anyway and all the other clues (at least IMO) fell into place and I found hints for them, so I didn’t worry about it. However recently I did find a big hint, but it wasn’t in any of the books –hang on have to go offline but I’ll be back

      • Sorry about that JPE, I have to admit I’m doing this at work though I shouldn’t be so I had to stop and help someone, lol! Didn’t get to edit my comment either so excuse the typos and run-ons, I usually try to fix before posting. But I didn’t want to have to start over, lol! Anyway what I started to say is that the one definite big hint I found is not in any of the books, it’s in one of FF’s scrapbooks that didn’t make it into any of the books. I think he decided not to put it in a book because it might be too obvious. I would say more but I can’t without giving too much of my own solve away, 🙂 But anyway, don’t discount the scrapbooks as a source for hints, as well as the books!

  12. JCM,
    I mostly like what you wrote in the previous Odds and Ends thread and I can see your train of logic. https://dalneitzel.com/2020/02/05/odds-n-ends-about-fenns-treasure-hunt-92/#comment-897238

    But I’d like to ask a couple of questions regarding your analysis because it seems like we are left with a few potential problem areas.
    You said: “they got there by getting the first two clues correct (probably had the third and fourth clue incorrect”

    Doesn’t this sound extremely optimistic? On face value this would mean Lil Indie could take her first two clues and get from Asia, into the Rockies, and end up 200 feet from the chest. But assuming this is true, then my next question would be ‘Why do I need 7 more clues to close the next 200 feet to zero?’ Even if the clue density has to get higher the closer you get (finer resolution), the ratio here seems lopsided.

    My second observation has to do with NTFBTFTW. I suppose there are two cases here: A) you believe this is one of the first two clues, or B) you believe this is a later clue. Before going on let me backtrack briefly to Cindy’s NYT’s tape that you quoted (Winter Games #3.)

    Reporter Ferdnada: So the words mean what they mean but not necessarily the most obvious meaning?
    F: One of the things I really didn’t anticipate, and I tried to think of everything, was that people would complicate the poem so much.
    Rep: And what do you mean by that?
    F: What did you just ask me?
    Rep: If the words mean what they are or if they represent something else?
    F: Why would you ask me if they mean what they are? Were you not complicating the thing by throwing that idiosyncrasy into the question?
    …. F: When you read this book I don’t use words like damn or hell or any of those things: it’s straightforward and yet people make the poem and the book so complex and I’ve been widely quoted as saying don’t mess with my poem. And yet everybody messes with my poem.

    “….too far to walk” if we apply Fenns warning to this phrase, its hard to read this as NOT requiring a fairly long distance to travel e.g. requiring something other than walking.

    So back to the second question. If TFTW is included by you in the first two clues, that could just mean that you had to employee some other means of transport in that stretch (WWH to 200 foot away). But if TFTW comes after the first two clues then it’s extremely hard to reconcile what you’re going to do with that phrase if you are already just 200 feet away. Could be the often proposed vertical drop I guess but we have other quotes suggesting he didn’t/doesn’t go ‘in and out of canyons’.

    Anyway, JCM, if you are still around the chat room here, I’d love to get your further prospective.

    • Colokid ~ *“….too far to walk” if we apply Fenns warning to this phrase, its hard to read this as NOT requiring a fairly long distance to travel e.g. requiring something other than walking.*

      Mind if I jump in… Why would it require something other than walking { assuming that means alternative transportation }… Why can’t it mean; don’t walk away from where you are?
      I mean.. if something is “not far” {away} But took far too walk {to}, we must be able to see just how far it is from where we are at.
      If this assumption is correct… “take it in” has a new perspective as what a searcher should be doing… right?

      I’ll add for fun.. the debate part to this would be.. are we up from the canyon or in said canyon to start?
      The reason I say this is; “down needs a direction of either an elevation factor {top to bottom, idea} or {while staring in a canyon} a flow or grade direction of the canyon {could be north or west or east etc.}… or… to mean south while looking at a map / GE.
      These choices are not so much one or the other, but where we start from as we try and find that direction, right?

      So, in any case of the above examples.. “not far” {away} something is, should be seen from WWsH to know what the distance for this task is too far to walk. Meaning: carrying a 42 lbs box, making two trips out of it. In which case.. hoB could be closer than most think. Maybe not 200′ or even 500′ but certainly not miles away. The problem I see is folks may have gone to hoB {solving it out of order}… this would screw up the {3rd clue, for argument sake} TFTW as moving or alternative transportation.
      Basically, clues 3 and 4 simply “stumped” them {searchers}.

      Allow me a hypothetical;
      Hey Forrest, I was at my WWsH and look in this direction and found hoB. { four clues solves? } So when I found hoB I went to look for the put in… { fenn’s uncertain knowledge of the first four clues solved? }.

      Ok thanks for letting me jump in, I like to see JCM comment as well.
      PS, JCM, how’s doodle doin?

      • Hi Seeker,
        I understand your current interpretation and sure, it’s possible…..But isn’t the concept of ‘interpreting’ really messing with the poem per the quote I stated?
        Repeating part of the quote:
        Rep: And what do you mean by that?
        F: What did you just ask me?
        Rep: If the words mean what they are or if they represent something else?
        F: Why would you ask me if they mean what they are? Were you not complicating the thing by throwing that idiosyncrasy into the question?

        Sure we can try and change what the words mean into more complex constructs, but isn’t Fenn saying that the simplest meaning IS the real meaning he intended?
        Remember the good ol’ days when we all debated endlessly whether “BEGIN…” really indicated the first clue?

        • That would stand to reason if the clues didn’t repeat themselves. With the rings becoming small enough to reveal where the hide is.
          Sometimes hunting calls for,adjusting focus in and out to get a better view.

        • Colokid,

          I get it… But who say which interpretation is the simplest… (Simpler?) meaning to use?
          Is more common the idea?
          I mean, take it in for example… For some one to physically take something in to a place there needs to be information that say what it is we take. However with the lack of what it is we move with… Isn’t the most obvious way to use “take it in” would be to “look”

          If a local could walk to WWsH, for example, would he still *need* his car in the idea of driving out some clues?
          Simplistic say… “Too far to walk” means simply don’t walk.

          So here’s my question; if people still traveled by foot..no cars, horses etc. Could they follow the clues-?- and still think too far to walk means alternative transportation??

          • Seeker,
            Have you listened to that audio clip that Cindy posted regarding the NYT interview: start at about Minute 2:50
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxTRJt5j0v8

            Too me, this is kind of like when Loco found the New Zealand interview about the first clue. This clip is a couple years old now but I never heard it before, and, IMO, it is perhaps the best example of Forrest saying how the ‘words mean what they mean’ and don’t mess with the poem. It’s really hard for me to walk away from listening to that and decide, ‘oh yeah, I have to re-interpret everything he says’.

            So if we are talking about a hike, and I say ‘It’s not too far”, wouldn’t you take that to mean ‘not a great distance’? Kind of non-specific? But if I added, ‘but it’s too far to walk’ wouldn’t your first thought be ‘hmmmm, maybe I need another way to get there’? So the second part is a natural modifier to the first part. Or would you immediately backtrack to an earlier part of our conversation and think, ‘gee, he must be talking about all the great views i’m going to see’?
            Honestly though, this isn’t really the debate I was hoping to start….this is all repeat.

          • In the audio he says read the book..right?

            Using this idea… What does a canyon represent in the story about the grooves in his hands?

            If the book help the readers to understand perspective of meanings in the poem, might it be the canyon we seek is not as large as we first would assume, or simply think of?

            Fenn has given us a few examples of over complicating. Most were along the ideas of thinking out of the box… Different languages, Bible verses, etc.

            Does the book not help at all? Even if all it does is to help understand perspective wording.

          • Seeker,
            LOL. You’re all over the poem this morning so let me try and re-focus. The thing he DIDNT say in the audio was that words mean what they are if you can INTERPRET them correctly.

            So just as a thought experiment, play devils advocate, take his statements at face value (no interpretation) and try to answer the questions I posed to JCM about his analysis…just for fun.

      • To me, this assumption isn’t correct…

        …if something is “not far” {away} But took far too walk {to}, we must be able to see just how far it is from where we are at.
        If this assumption is correct.
        —————————————-
        It’s easily possible some terrain is blocking your view.

          • Yes or no. Or, you made the wrong assumption.

            Which is it? Hard to know cause they are all subjective.

            I’d rather focus on figuring out the answer to the mechanism f architected into his treasure hunt that should be non-subjective. This should lead one to the correct starting point.

            That way you are not putting the cart before the horse.

          • Fundy,

            We’re all assuming…. and most of the assumption start with our own preconditioned notions of what “follow” means, what “take it in” means, what scale of a search area should be etc… or this is nothing more than a conventional style pirate map hunt, solely because we have desire too over simplify. Then when that doesn’t work we over complicate by outside info.. then try to go back to the KiSS method.. all rinse and repeat.

            I’m looking for the goldilock zone. For this to happen the poem needs to be as one. Contiguous.

            Some like to use the words logical thinking… that didn’t seem to help all those searcher at the first two clues [and there seems to have been a lot of searchers there]
            When does “imagination” kick in? fenn said this would be done mostly by imagination. When does “planning and observing” kick in? Is that just getting time off from work?

            Assuming what we thin things should be, is one thing… attempting to see things as fenn does, is another.

            Everyone is thinking and analyzing the snots out it all, and assuming we need things to be as *we hope* them to be.

          • Seeker, as I said…I think you’re putting the cart before the horse so what you are saying isn’t compelling.

            Like this…” or this is nothing more than a conventional style pirate map hunt, solely because we have desire too over simplify.”
            ——————
            I think you’re the one over simplifying the only rationale for a traditional treasure hunt. Confirmation bias?

    • Colokid ~ * then my next question would be ‘Why do I need 7 more clues to close the next 200 feet to zero?’*

      In a hypothetical location… the seven remaining clues in an area of 200′ may not be actual size to the definitions of some words [but correctly described], or how a reader automatically perceives what a size of something should be.
      That was my point about the book and fenn’s hands having canyons on them… or a mud puddle to an ant looks like an ocean.
      Another example; if you recall some pictures of fenn’s yard.. trees pond, ducks paddling a water way… all could represent a much larger geographical location… with a much larger canyon and river the ducks could paddle, a lake and mountains [rocks] a wood lot as a forest.
      Geographical placements of features don’t always mean huge and far apart.
      Is this were imagination kicks in?

      We are looking for two things.. a blaze [an object of unknown size] and a chest that’s only 10″ X 5″ hidden.
      It’s interesting that we are told the size of the chest, especially when we have pictures in the book showing what is looks like [ and items next to it to see the scale of what size the chest is ] A subtle hint that the may help with the clues-?- or the size of the location and what is depicted there?

      Only problem is… as we read the poem over and over, it seems in many conversations by searchers, the search scale [ area of the clues ] seemingly grows in size. Why is that?

      So why seven clues you ask… well IF we are to make all the lines cross, idea… a good way of doing this in an area of [lets say] 1000′ or less… would be to have the clues scaled down.

      I know the next question; C’mon, Seeker. What about TFTW? Nothing is too far in a 1000′ foot area, right?
      LOL again, is walking/moving involved for that line at all, or does it mean *don’t walk*? We may need to see all the smaller scaled features [ physical clue references ]from one point… WWsH. But if we get there with the precondition notion of a large scale search area, folks just might walk by everything, not realizing it is all so close.

      OK I can hear another question being mumbled… why would fenn need to make two trips from his car?
      Might it be that we can’t park near the clues… we need to hike to them? Walk several hours to our “solve” twice.

      Dang, I hear another question floating in the wind… But, but but.. Little Indy can find the first two clues on a map [apparently]. OK, but she can’t get “closer” than those clues, might it be because she [ or anyone else ] needs to be at this place to “marry the clues to * A PLACE * on a map ~ to see the scale of the search size? Think about that… what map do we all have? The poem is a map, right? And fenn tells us to bring our map. {memorize the poem}.

      LOL ok who has anything else to ask?

      • Hello Seeker. Ever since Little Indy was introduced, I was puzzled as to why she couldn’t get closer than the first two clues. Over time, I would think about this and then put it on the back burner only to find its way back to thought. I had wondered if the reason being was that the first two clues would get her there, and because she was “there” how could she get any closer. Perhaps it was a matter of the remaining clues to be visualized to get to “X” marks the spot. Again, just thoughts.

        • Pden,
          Here’s an alternate thought about Lil Indie. The implication I get from many things F said, is that the first two clues are special, of ultimate importance, and likely structured differently than the rest of the poem. So what if all his map and “X” comments are only intended to be applied to the first 1 or 2 clues? These are the key clues right…we need some way to get started? But once there (WWWH) you now need to adjust how you approach the succeeding clues. Perhaps as if they can not be identified on a map. Doesn’t this explain why Indie can’t get closer…she has to be at WWH to get further? If JCM is correct (that clue 1-2 get you to 200 ft) then it’s extremely unlikely that a published map takes you the rest of the 200 ft.

          Just a thought.

          • Hello Colo, you could be right. I can tell you that the hoB that I am looking it is not on a map, and is nearly impossible to determine without being on site.

          • Pden,
            That’s what I’m talking about. You can take those statements and others, and easily conclude that this is the way it’s structured.

            Why do all these armchair solves fail? They are ignoring key things that F says.

            Why has he told us over and over that it’s a waste of time to look for later clues until you unravel 1-2? Because it can’t be done that way. There is a ‘firewall’ of sorts built into the poem that precludes going further than 1-2 until you go there….then a different approach is needed.
            All MO of course.

          • Hi Colo:

            “Why has he told us over and over that it’s a waste of time to look for later clues until you unravel 1-2? Because it can’t be done that way. There is a ‘firewall’ of sorts built into the poem that precludes going further than 1-2 until you go there…”

            I was 100% with you until those last two words. I thought what you were driving at was that you have to solve #1 before you solve #2, and #2 before you solve #3, etc. Forrest has never said you have to physically be on site to solve the clues beyond the first two. The closest statement you can hang your hat on is the closing sentence of question 6 from MW Six Questions in 2018: “Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-double-charmed/

            “Few” is a vague number that ~can~ mean as low as 2, but more colloquially means 3 or more. But I don’t know how anyone can solve only two clues and realistically expect that the other seven will just fall into place once onsite. So far that hasn’t happened for any of the two-clue solvers. Clearly solving two clues is insufficient to move with confidence with a smile on your face.

            “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.”

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-author-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

            I don’t think that quote can be satisfied by showing up at the starting point with just two clues solved.

          • Zap, I totally get what you mean by the quote not being satisfied by just having the first two clues. What if the person analyzes the poem enough to know the key word. That key word shows them were to go for the first two clues, and a path that the poem takes them on. Could they be confident enough in that path to satisfy the quote?

            What about this quote from The Lure: “Go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that. If you can decipher the clues, you’re gonna find that treasure chest.”

            https://youtu.be/tQcLGRdSI38

          • Zap,
            ‘Forrest has never said you have to physically be on site to solve the clues beyond the first two. ‘

            Agreed. I am inferring a different approach as opposed to the standard model which is to believe that you can solve the whole thing from home. Conversely, I don’t think you can find a quote that refutes the idea I laid out.

            ‘The closest statement you can hang your hat on is the closing sentence of question 6 from MW Six Questions in 2018: “Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”
            I think this supports the inference I’m making pretty well actually. We could argue over what ‘complete the solve’ means but not sure that would be productive.

            ‘So far that hasn’t happened for any of the two-clue solvers. Clearly solving two clues is insufficient to move with confidence with a smile on your face.’

            We really don’t know exactly what these people did or didn’t do so that’s really a moot point. Well look at it this way. If you think the poem is structured as an armchair solve, and you go into the field with that preconceived notion, and your wrong, what’s going to happen? You probably zig when you should have zagged. I would point out this one: “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.” This is what I’m suggesting. Most people could be misconstruing the blue print and miss the adjustment. If you guessed or assumed an incorrect method for how the clues are intended to be solved you are most likely going to ‘leave the poem’ at some point. He told us that this search will be difficult but not impossible right? To me, ‘not impossible’ is just shy of impossible. There’s a whole lot of daylight between those two extremes so why would we expect the method of solve to be linear?

            I spent a lot of time today pointing out F’s warning about messing with the poem, and that words mean what they are. If ‘solving a clue’ means INTERPRETING to a different meaning, and then this new meaning somehow allows you to ‘solve’ the next clue (and so on) then I think this qualifies as messing with the poem. Did you listen to that audio? Like I told Seeker….it’s hard to walk away from that and not think he’s serious about how to read the words in the poem.

            “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.”
            Personally, I think this is more of a crutch quote that is thrown out there a lot to support the notion of a complete armchair solve. This strikes me as more of an inspirational statement not as informational on how to proceed.

            Just sayin.

          • Hello Colokid. Considering the first two clues, how will we know if we have the first two clues if the following (few) clues are not located on a map? We have to remember that the clues get easier as we go along, although I’m not sure clues three and four would be considered as such, unless it is we that have complicated the poem at that point.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Pden,

            I don’t think you can be certain of 1&2 whether or not the succeeding clues are on a map.

            People frequently trot out a couple of quotes about ‘certainty before hand’ and ‘moving with confidence’ and use this to create an expectation that there is some way to confirm your solution. But I don’t think you will find F stating that there is a way to be confident or confirm that you have solved any particular clue.

            It’s ‘difficult but not impossible’ right? Not impossible is kind of the operative phrase here. I don’t think there should be any expectations except that we know some people have done it…solved 1&2. But so far, that didn’t help anyone out.

          • Hello Colokid. Mr. Fenn’s “certainty beforehand” and my “certainty beforehand” have proven I was wrong in the past. (Giggle.) With this, I’m not sure if I’ll ever feel I’ve truly figured out all the clues unless I saw the treasure chest before my eyes. The Chase has found me a bit more humbling than I was before.

      • Seeker,
        I don’t really want to belabor the point but it still sounds like you are stuck with re-interpreting all the words. Sure, canyons in the hand seems like it could be relevant to the poem. But isn’t it possible the poem canyon is a really stream cut canyon? And, sure maybe we are supposed to to view HLAWH in some miniature scale but isn’t it also likely the words mean what they are…full scale….the way they sound?

        My current sense is that people are struck on turning to elaborate explanations, rationalization, and contortions of the words because they don’t see how to make the poem works otherwise. And then the next step is to grasp at SB’s, illustrations, and every other book he’s written to find a hint. I get it….it’s tough. So generically what I’m saying is it sure sounds like F is warning us that the words mean what they are, don’t make it so complex, and figure out how this really works in that context instead of inventing new ways to read the poem. But as JCM said: I could be entirely wrong.

        • I get it…
          What I’m saying is; every posted solution has been “large scale” or full size features.
          Yet, when folks have been at the correct location of WWsH… they seem to hop, skip and jump right by everything.

          Doesn’t this give pause to convectional thinking as to what the location of the actual search area size might be?
          What I don’t understand is how some think “take it in” can only be of a movement. The term take it in is used everyday as to tell another to look at something… example standing on a mountain side while hiking; one may say; take in that view ~ just take it in… right? “IT” being the view. Or I thought we could get something to eat and then take in a movie. IT would be the movie… only it is our job to figure what IT is referencing.
          Well that is exactly what “take it in” means by one definition. And that definition changes what a searcher might do.

          So I’ll ask you this question; once you think you have solved a clue [ be it a word or line or stanza etc. ] do you leave it behind as solved completely, or do you use it later to attempt to understand another clues?
          Because IF take it in is only a movement idea, then TFTW must be alternative transportation.

          The idea here is Begin IT relates to take IT in as the same. Which provides the idea of TFTW as not to walk because of the usage of ‘take it in’ as observing something. This idea allows the clues to give a pattern / method of process and combines the clues as needing each other.

          My point is; one anyone find WWsH, then finds, the canyon, then hoB, then the next hopeful clue… None of the others [prior] clues seem very important anymore once later clues have been deciphered. This is the flaw in the idea, that we can dismiss WWsH, if it is at all *possible* to locate [say] hoB on any map, or HLnWH.

          However, the idea of a small scale search area [ less than 1000′ ] kinda keeps those clues contiguous in nature… the question is why are they needing to be contiguous. LOL consecutive order would cover a large scale search area nicely by itself… but in that case… nothing seems to connect them as needing “all the ingredients.”

          You say I’m all over the place… I’m just trying to keep things connected. To do that, I need to see why WWsH is important to the other clues and why HLnWH is as well… or any single clue in-between. This is why simplistic thinking creates a vehicle for moving “too far to walk”
          Most want the scale of the search area to be large. because of how *we* depict those features.

          “Rational” to me is; how the poem stays intact. And IF a clue can be skipped or even misinterpret, only later to pick up a correct clue and carry on to the end.. then the poem is broken. Might as well leave the egg out of the cake mix, right?

          I get you don’t want to debate many things i said; but ask yourself this; IF ANY given point can be found on a map after WWsH… Why is it not possible to locate the correct WWshH and possibly get lucky a mile or two down the road on a map and find No Paddle Creek and continue to the chest with just consecutive order of the remaining clues…

          Something doesn’t jive with that thinking vs. all the ingredients are needed.

          • Seeker, you asked: “IF ANY given point can be found on a map after WWsH… Why is it not possible to locate the correct WWshH and possibly get lucky a mile or two down the road on a map and find No Paddle Creek and continue to the chest with just consecutive order of the remaining clues”

            Here is why I think this has been hard to do. The general path, road, or walking trail can lead a searcher away from WWWH in the direction of the chest. Staying on this path can take them to within a few hundred feet of the chest, however in order to make it the correct location of NPUYC, one has to make a turn off of this path and go off trail. Since the searchers have failed to connect the dots in the poem that are TFTW, and PIBTHOB they are not turning off the path at the right spot. As you like to say they hop, skip, and jump along their merrily way right past the 7 remaining clues.

          • Seeker,

            I constantly reassess my understanding of the clues which has led me to reassess the thought that “and take it in the canyon down” means to observe something. I don’t have this totally worked out but if it does mean that we need to view something then how exactly would f know that the first two clues have been solved before? Surely he would know if someone had gotten to WWH but if the next clue is that we need to observe something in the canyon then how exactly would he have known that that something was correctly observed by those previous searchers?

            If the canyon in the poem is indeed and actual canyon, and the searchers ended up there, then it seems to me that simply being there would leave f to believe that the searchers solved that clue. He has stated that he knows a few searchers solved the first 2 clues because they told him exactly where they were, not because they told him what they observed. This to me means that the correct solve for ATIITCD is a location, not an observation.

            This is not to say that we don’t need to be on site to move forward with the clues but for that specific clue, it seems to be a location and not an observation.

            Thoughts?

          • Seeker,
            You said: ““Rational” to me is; how the poem stays intact. And IF a clue can be skipped or even misinterpret, only later to pick up a correct clue and carry on to the end.. then the poem is broken. Might as well leave the egg out of the cake mix, right?

            I get you don’t want to debate many things i said; but ask yourself this; IF ANY given point can be found on a map after WWsH… Why is it not possible to locate the correct WWshH and possibly get lucky a mile or two down the road on a map and find No Paddle Creek and continue to the chest with just consecutive order of the remaining clues…”

            Well I think we do have elements of agreement and you are toughing on 1 here…I think.
            I don’t think you can skip clues because I don’t think the balance of the clues (3-7) are LIKELY not on a map as in named features. So just because you got to WWH doesn’t mean you waltz your way thru the rest. The rest of the clues can be macro scale clues but not IDENTIFIED individually on a map because the scale of the map doesn’t have sufficient resolution. But this also doesn’t mean they are all view-able from one point just because they fall below the map resolution. I’m still think the whole area is relatively small scale but also spread out. I’m just saying that Fs map statements may just refer to the first 1-2 clues.

    • Hi Colokid – to expand on your questions…
      ——————-
      “You said: “they got there by getting the first two clues correct (probably had the third and fourth clue incorrect”

      Doesn’t this sound extremely optimistic? On face value this would mean Lil Indie could take her first two clues and get from Asia, into the Rockies, and end up 200 feet from the chest.”
      ——————-

      I decided long ago when thinking about the chase to keep my thoughts inclusive, not exclusive. What does that mean? I try to not exclude any possibilities when looking at potential meanings or scenarios; I try to remain fluid and flexible in what is possible, minimizing lower probability things while maximizing higher probability things when trying to solve this incredible challenge.

      I do not think or believe that just solving the first two clues will necessarily get you within 200 feet of the treasure, or even 500 feet. But if you have these first two clues correct, and you start researching that area (like f has said to do) and you land yourself in the general location of where the chest is hidden, is it possible that you could correctly find/solve one of the later clues without correctly figuring out all the prior clues (i.e clues 3 and 4)? Debatable, but I think it is… inclusive thought… of course if you don’t have at least the first clue, and probably the second, then getting any of the other clues is probably not going to happen…

      Little Indie can solve the first two clues, fly to the US, get in a car and drive to WWWH, she can TIITCD, if that is indeed the second clue, but I highly doubt that she will end up within 500 feet or even 200 feet of the chest. The poem – as a map – I highly doubt you can get you that close by just going to wherever/whatever the second clue is. But as you are walking, hiking, and wandering the area, and if some or all these other seven clues are within that area, is it possible to correctly identify some of them, but not necessarily all of them? Again, I think it is a possibility.

      I refer back to Stephanie’s question about the blaze… if only two clues, and no others, had been solved at the time of her question to f, f’s answer to Stephanie would have been a simple and easy “no”, but that was not his answer.

      ———————
      ” But assuming this is true, then my next question would be ‘Why do I need 7 more clues to close the next 200 feet to zero?’ Even if the clue density has to get higher the closer you get (finer resolution), the ratio here seems lopsided.”
      ———————

      I think I have already answered your follow-on question…

      When all is said and done, and if we ever actually know the solutions to the 9 clues, I won’t be surprised if the second stanza gets you to the general location and the trailhead of where the chest is hidden, the third stanza takes you to some point on that trail where you then discover the clues of the fourth stanza and find the chest. What about the other stanzas in the poem? They are there, maybe they even have some clues needed to find the chest, but currently, those stanzas mostly reside in my lower probability category. And if true, people can write me off for finding the chest.

      When it comes to NFBTFTW, I put a question to the community a number of years ago about if you were in the great outdoors, had a car readily available to you, and you were deciding to either drive or walk a distance (accessible by both modes of transportation), how far would that distance be before you would opt for the car instead of just walking. I think the distance of TFTW is probably going to be less than several multiples of that distance (if you are healthy and in decent physical shape…).

      Just a bunch of opinions… 🙂

      • JCM,
        Nice stated. I buy it all.

        I might speculate a little further on the Stephanie question (because I thought maybe this is where you were going with including it). If as you said, Mr/Mrs 200 feet possibly did see the blaze and/or photograph it but were still potentially able to participate in the search, F might have felt that commenting YES could be a tip-off to them. He wouldn’t have been able to say No truthfully. Had the question been asked much later (chronologically) and assuming that he/they are no longer able to participate we might have got a different answer. Just speculation of course.

        Thanks for getting back.

        • When that Q&A from Stephanie first came out, I played the what if game by combining the possibilities of potential ways the questions could have been answered:

          (Seen the blaze, Mentioned the Blaze):
          (yes, yes) (yes, no) (no, yes) (no,no)

          I then tried to come up with plausible scenarios for what could be concluded had f actually answered the two questions… doesn’t get anyone anywhere or solve any of the clues, but does force one to think critically and entertain possibilities of what was happening at that time in the chase and what might be feasible…

          And when the statement from f came out about the searcher leaving the poem at about 200 feet of the chest a couple years ago, that just added more critical thinking and the entertaining of more ideas to the mix of possibilities.

  13. JCM I am anxious to hear your reply to this comment by Colokid, and thanks Colokid for the link to JCm’s earlier comments. I hadn’t seen the quote concerning “they left the poem” before. That is really interesting and sparking something in my brain. JCM, do you also by any chance have a source for a quote from Forrest that I saw recently, maybe here on Dal’s blog but maybe somewhere else. I stupidly didn’t make a note of where I saw it or what interview it came from. But it was one I had never seen before, referring to a man who maybe got to 200 ft from the treasure but didn’t find it. I know it said something about the fact that the man had possibly not followed all the clues, maybe just guessed the first one or two, but still ended up at that spot because he knew Forrest so well. I don’t remember if ff referred to him as a friend but it sounded like it. ff said the man didn’t need the money, just came there out of curousity or something, to see if he could find the treasure., but then left and never came back.
    Does this ring a bell to JCM or anyone else? Put together with the quote from the “Fernanda” interview it makes interesting reading and maybe helps me confirm something related to my solve. If I had that quote handy I might have some questions/comments for this thread!

    • librarylady,
      Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn – by JCM

      The link is at the bottom of every topic page. I suggest you check it out. It is years of collection of Forrest’s comments, interviews etc with links. {also second hand info from many resources}
      Whether looking over Dal’s vast topics posted above {topic, threads, media section etc,} or JCM’s documents… you can normally find anything you are looking for, with one or both.

      • Thank you! This is great to know! I am new to these discussions but had already realized that JCM knows a lot and is worth paying attention to, but did not know about the list. I will definitely look at it!

      • “You can normally find anything you are looking for….” Interesting choice of words. So I believe Mr. Fenn would agree with the following statement–“you have to think the right thoughts” to solve the poem. But yet, to paraphrase, Mr. Fenn has also said that “specialized knowledge” such as bible verses, foot pounds, fonts, science, math, history, and geography, is not required.

        I wood disagree with Mr. Fenn on this fine point. Specialized knowledge is most definitely required to solve it, imeo. What kind of specialized knowledge you might ask?

        The poem is more than just its words, more than the sum of its parts. You have to find its soul! It’s a unified whole, understood only with a specialized knowledge/understanding of his thoughts. I’m not suggesting mind reading, lol, more about his psychology. What do you believe in? This poem is not for the faint of heart.

        Today, I’m feeling kind of emotional, who wants to play? Step right up…

    • Hi librarylady – I have had a hard time trying to figure out what to do with this statement for several reasons…

      1. It came out with others having heard it (kpro) and kpro restating what
      SHE THOUGHT she heard f say.
      2. Cynthia provided f’s transcribed words, but there is no context or background of the discussion taking place that triggered f to say what he did. Sometimes that can make ALL the difference.

      When I compare this one statement (f’s words transcribed by Cynthia – which I don’t argue are incorrect), this statement does not align with, and quite frankly, contradicts a number of other statements f has made on the subject.

      Every now and then we are all entitled to take a mulligan; as f once said to me:

      “I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while”.

      • Hi JCM,
        Well, rats! That is unfortunate, I was hoping maybe there was a recorded interview where F had said it or something. I agree that hearsay is not as certain as the real thing and background to the conversation is important. For me, I feel this statement may be confirmation of some things I have possibly figured out regarding not only the 200-ft searcher but some other things regarding my solve. However, I will not post my theory about how this searcher being someone who “knew Forrest better than he thought” could explain how the searcher made it to within 200 ft. I don’t suppose it would have changed anyone’s mind about the distances between locations of the places described in the clues anyhow, since it was all theoretical and pretty subjective. Oh well, thank you for your help! .

        • For the record though, JCM, I agree with what you said about distances, especially NFBTFTW, earlier today. IMO, I don’t think all the clues point to locations so extremely close together as some searchers believe (defintely not within 1000 feet of each other). I do, however, think that the general area can actually be figured out prior to figuring out WWWH, if you find the right hints in the TTOTC book and figure out what they mean, though that is not easy. I also actually believe (again just IMO) that all the clues from WWWH on do form a very basic map, like a pirate’s map in a consecutive– though not necessarily straight –line, and that the whole trip following that map is probably less than 20 miles.
          Surprisingly, I do think (IMO only) that you can see the general geographic location where the treasure may be hidden, as in “your destination is small but it’s location is huge” (https://www.chasingfennstreasure.com/fenn-quotes-page-2) from WWWH, but not the specific blaze or hidey spot where the treasure is. However not necessarily the other way around–.I don’t think you can see WWWH from where the blaze and hidey spot are. But I can’t explain why I think that without giving too much away. 🙂

  14. Thank you Colokid, this is exactly what I was referring to! Not the same place where I saw it, as I hadn’t seen this, but still it is intriguing. Interesting to know the backstory and controversy as well. The .200 ft-500 ft problem drives me crazy, as it does most of us. It is the one thing that I have struggled to fit with my solve. But now seeing this, in a weird way it does fit, and may be the answer to something else I was wondering as well. I am really going to have to think about this! Maybe will weigh in again on this discussion thread after I do that but too late tonight where I am!

    • I have been following the 200′ / 500′ conversations all along the way and the quotes about it seem to me very open to interpretation. Searchers have stated that solving the first two clues can get you within 200ft, but that is only one interpretation of the Fenn quotes about it. The quotes alone don’t express any such thing as fact. I recall some early years searcher groups that would search every creek within a given area hoping to discover a “blaze”, so you could plug in a group like that as a possible contact who informed Mr. Fenn of their search efforts. Maybe they has the first two clues correct then hiked a dozen “no paddle creeks” eventually describing a place 200ft from THE place. They weren’t following the poem, just counting on luck or a hunch as Fenn suggested.

      And some of the quotes refer to people within 500′ so are those non-searchers in the area for other reasons? There are too many unanswered questions related to the whole 200/500 conversation. Too much opportunity for guessing. For me it really doesn’t add anything useful to my search efforts. Maybe it is useful to know several searchers have been that close, which could rule out some places that are maybe too out of the way. Or maybe it is within 200ft of “your creek” which would be helpful, but that’s still an exercise in guessing.
      He mentioned in one quote that maybe 4 clues had been solved, so does that get you to 200ft?

      I think it is all a distraction from the poem.

  15. I think it is likely that whoever solves Forrest’s poem (koan, or riddle) will have used their whole brain (conscious and subconscious facilities) to solve it. There is a saying in Zen:

    To study the Buddha Way (Zen) is to study the self.
    To study the self is to forget the self.
    To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things. – Dogen

    You can’t do this with just your little mind. Get the little mind out of the way and let Big Mind solve this. Once you solve it, then go get it.

  16. I always like to be on the outside looking in, like ff was at Texas A&M, all my friends are set with their resources and knowledge that they are set up…, so I just have to solve the problem a different way, yep, I joined the Navy, and yes I went to “Electronics School”, and I must say I found what was lacking in my life, and it was not intelligence, it was organizational skills, and I mean the beautiful kind, sorta like the “Library Lady” above might understand…or that girl with the braids, whose cup coverd her entire face at Borders Books.

    Now the problem of 200′ ers and more than a few 500’ers seems pretty easy to understand, for some reason the 500’s could not get off the freeway, the airplane or the train at this point, so why did old lonesome, George and female friend get so close? They went where people do not normally venture, right? Perhaps it was an Edge, a Ledge (know a lege) of a thousand feet or was like this view without a trail to it… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-GD4vhA3No … or it because the knew they must Tarry Scant, or get quickly close and did not see this movement as necessary part of the poem’s directions. Seems like I recall once thinking a winter thought about some “cold coffee in a hot cup” idea from a song writing friend, of ff’s named
    Roger Miller, who wrote:
    “Third boxcar, midnight train, destination Bangor, Maine
    Old worn-out suits and shoes
    I don’t pay no union dues
    I smoke old stogies I have found, short, but not too big around
    I’m a man of means by no means, king of the road
    I know every engineer on every train
    All their children, and all of their names
    And every hand out in every town
    And every lock that ain’t locked when no one’s around.”

    Now how could me and Bobby McGee not get this one in our vocabulary? What were we waitin on? What took me so long, and anyway when we use to sing “Freedoms just another word for nuthin left to lose? I have only mentioned 4 recent Scrapbooks themes here, SC Books 211, 219, 235, 247, and somehow I think there is a lot more to consider, like why did ff write SC Book 169 on March 12, 2017, about “winning a Bingo”, that was 5 days after winter thoughts by TT?
    Heck, it was a church, and then a train bell gift from Eric S? and yes, this had something that rings a bell for me at SC Book 171, 172 all of a sudden gears are falling into place, again why a church? What is up with that? It dawned on me that a church in the mountains, by a wood river which might hold a Basin full of 3 ideas WWWH and like drain into the home of Brown, which falls so mistifully into the “wood river”, sometimes I just feel or I imagine, like a lot of other searchers that somebody is leading us through this morass, but just enough to keep us interested…right?

    TT

    • Tom,
      I hear what your saying, but remember it must line up with the proper WWWH. Many of the ATF stories seem to confirm many solves, however they only confirm one solve. What I mean is that the constant reference about churches and trains or bells are metaphors about his area and other things. They are not actual trains, bells and churches. In Forrest imagination those things are present at the location in other forms. I will give you a hint, he used the word kettle in one of his stories in the book, a kettle is a term used for a steam engine. A kettle is also a caldron, caldron in Spanish is caldera. That’s the way Forrest mind works. He isn’t talking about a train and it’s not near and old train track because you cannot start in the middle and work your way up to WWWH. All in my opinion, thanks.

  17. it is time for the game show, “crush another illusion” about the chase;
    the show that brings about a solution through process of elimination:

    you know that “10 miles” that new (and some old) searchers use from TFTW preface.

    not a clue, not a distance one should worry about, and probably not relevant to anything… imo.

    ff quote (source Dal’s blog): “I said in an interview that there was a clue in the book / talking about TFTW /, not the preface, that I didn’t realize was there until after the book was printed. Some have discovered it already. /etc…/ ”

    there is also a Dal quote that I now can not find that further buries this distance thing and puts a zero chance on it.

    I knew of these quotes from the start, so never really measured, then just happened to measure a particular distance recently, exactly 10 miles as the crow flies .. now that is annoying in all manner of annoying.

    🙂

    • Writis, the exact same thing happened to me as well. Wonder if we measured the same distance? I’m beginning to have nightmares that too many of us are going to show up in the same place this summer, lol!

    • I agree Writis the 10 miles means nothing. However there is a similarlarity of his trip. The hint is that he put in the river and then took out. IMO

  18. Seeker,
    Step away from the coffee. LOL. You’re all over the poem this morning so let me try and re-focus. The thing he DIDNT say in the audio was that words mean what they are IF you can INTERPRET them correctly.

    So just as a thought experiment, play devils advocate, take his statements at face value (no interpretation) and try to answer the questions I posed to JCM about his analysis…just for fun.

    • I know this is a duplicate post, Colokid, but I just listen to the audio again, and I finally made up my mind about one thing… ok.. maybe two things.
      My War for Me and SF. NM have a connection to the book … or maybe a better way of saying it… how the book might help with the “story” *Metaphorically speaking / thinking*
      And IF I should be so bold as to say; Preston may have heard something that I think connects two of Cynthia’s videos, and fenn’s comments in both.

      At least in my anal mind… I mean, analytical mind.

      • Seeker,
        The discussion of ‘thinking in a graveyard’ and ‘laying on damp ground in Laos’ (and thinking) was interesting. What I found interesting is that he points to this and says he’s surprised no one pointed this metaphor out. But you said War for Me and SF, NM. The graveyard was in Temple when he was a kid….right? Where’s the SF connect?

        While I seriously doubt that this is a hint per se, maybe this is an example of how the hints maybe written???? I don’t know. It’s intriguing but not sure what to make of it.

  19. looking at the first two clues (to get within 200 feet), the first is begin IT where WWH, and take IT in the canyon down. The key word is?

  20. I have been searching for almost 10 years now. I have found that every other line will verify if you have going in the right direction from the start. Most searchers are over analyzing the
    clues. Example:
    Begin it where WWH – next line is: ATIITCD / this line should verify that you have the right starting place.
    PIBTHOB – You will know for sure now if you have the right HOB
    Those are the easy clues. You must not miss ” the end is ever drawing nigh ” or you will
    go RIGHT ON BY…..

    • Hi GB: you don’t mention “Not far, but too far to walk.” I maintain that no one can confidently solve “Put in below the home of Brown” without first solving that line. And I’m also confident that no one is going to solve NF, BTFTW in the field.

      • GB, should the hob line confirm NF,BTFTW? and as a side note, it is not necessary that NF,BTFTW has to confirm the line before, (the canyon line)… meaning the cadence is every other line as you said, and not every line confirms the line before, just wanted to ask as your next example had skipped a line.

        Zap, thought you were going to say something else with last sentence, but I think I understand, that you believe one can solve NF,BTFTW before BOTG. (correct?) which I believe also.

        I also am starting to believe that the blaze is possible before BOTG.

      • Hi Writis: yes — I definitely believe both NF, BTFTW *and* the blaze can and should be figured out before putting BOTG. Apparently neither claim is popular, but in the case of the blaze it would help explain Forrest’s inability (or unwillingness) to answer Becky’s rascal question.

  21. Thanks for posting that link to Cynthias youtube Colokid, I didn’t know of that one. Forrest spoke about being shot down in Laos and also about ‘a kid has a lot of time to think in a graveyard’. He said nobody has make that connection and one is a metaphor for the other. ???

    She also asks, does solving the poem or finding the treasure requires knowing you, meaning understanding how you think? He answers no to both. Does that mean that researching the author himself falls into the ‘specialized knowledge’ category?

    • Oz,
      You said: “She also asks, does solving the poem or finding the treasure requires knowing you, meaning understanding how you think? He answers no to both. Does that mean that researching the author himself falls into the ‘specialized knowledge’ category?”

      I thought that was an important Q&A. Although I wouldn’t say that researching F is a waste of time (seems like it would be generally helpful), I think the point was just that understanding F is not REQUIRED to understand the words he is using in the poem. Further, my take away is that the words mean what they are and no interpretation required. You should not make it over complex. Just how I read it.

      • good to see you mixing it up a bit Colo. Straight forward, no tomfoolery… dessert on top of the cake !

      • Hello Colokid. You’ve stated you believe the words mean what they are and no interpretation required. I believe we need to remember what Mr. Fenn said in the following about the words he chose:

        Richard Eeds Show…

        ‘And I looked up words, definitions of words, and changed them, and went back and rebooted. I’m very pleased. It turned out exactly like I wanted it to turn out.’

        https://santafe.com/podcasts/forrest-fenn-on-treasure-hunting-in-the-rockies

        • Pden,
          Yes I do believe that based on what was said between F and the NYT reporter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxTRJt5j0v8

          No sure how the quote you presented would refute that.
          ‘And I looked up words, definitions of words, and changed them, and went back and rebooted. I’m very pleased. It turned out exactly like I wanted it to turn out.’

          Sounds like it confirms my/his point. He looked up words to be sure what they mean. Are you reading this as if he changed the definitions? I would read it that he changed words that didn’t mean what he originally intended. Not sure where the discrepancy is if there is one.

          • Hello Colokid. I’m not sure if I’m going to answer your question correctly, but I’ll try. I believe we have to find the correct definition of the word he chose to use in the poem. I’ve looked up many words over the past five years since I’ve been involved, and I was surprised to see how many meanings the word(s) have and had no idea. We’ve read how Mr. Fenn describes the possibilities of what “blaze” means. For example, the white mark on the face of a horse. Others have considered a fire. Again, a matter of finding the correct meaning to the poem.

        • Pden,
          Not sure I see an inconsistancy if there is one. Are you reading this to say he looked up definitions and then changed the definitions?

          To me this just says he made sure the definitions of the words he used were what he wanted to convey.

          • @Colokid – I am reading it the same as you. He didn’t change the definitions, he changed the words he was using because he needed the right definitions.

          • Hello Colokid. I concur he used words/definitions to convey what he wanted to say to assist us in finding the treasure chest. I’m not sure how one could “change” definitions if it’s offered as a definition to the word(s). It’s possible I misunderstood that part of your comment.

          • They look like simple words but I guarantee…

            Bowmarc,
            Isn’t change anything to get it just right, the idea of choosing a word or phrases for its usage?

            I don’t see the difference in looking up words to make sure of it’s meaning vs. changing them and rebooting.

      • Words mean what they say when we understand the context. Does anybody know with certainty what the blaze is before finding the treasure?

        • Hello OZ10. You asked if anybody know with certainty what the blaze is before finding the treasure. For me, I’m not sure if it’s a matter of knowing geography with the earlier clues before the blaze which will be shown on the map, or if it’s something we’ll need to see while there, since we’ve been told it’s something that sticks out. Sticks out could be something jutting out, or possibly something unusual there.

          This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

        • Hi OZ10/All: I think the treasure cannot be found without solving the blaze, and (much more controversially) that the blaze can and must be figured out prior to BOTG. Like NF, BTFTW, if you can’t figure it out from home, you’re not going to have an epiphany in the field based on what you see/smell/hear there.

        • That was the point I tried to illustrate, that we can say the words in the poem mean what they say, but many of them have multiple definitions. So it won’t be until the poem is solved and treasure retrieved that we will know for sure which true definition was meant for those words. Blaze is one of them, maybe tarry, wood, worth the cold, etc…

          So if ff looked up the nouns in the dictionary and found that many of them didn’t mean what he thought they did, so why can’t we. In another interview, he said it was important to know why he used the word ‘trove’ and how that compares to other similar words in the poem. It just makes sense…

    • Hello OZ10. I think it wouldn’t hurt to know the author. We’ve been told to read TTOTC and the poem and go back and forth with both. The book is his memoir.

  22. Sorry zaphod. I cannot give (NFBTFTW) that clue. But you are wrong. You do not need it to locate the HOM.
    You are also wrong about no one is going to solve NF, BTFTW in the field. Exactly the opposite: YOU MUST BE IN THE FIELD . Most all the clues will require boots on the ground.
    No map nor Google Earth or anything else will do. Small geographic items will be the only
    thing to lead you there.

    • Hi GB: well, you’ve been at it about twice as long as I have, and so I respect your persistence. Probably not too many searchers have consistently been working on it for over 9 years. But I stand firmly by a number of opinions:

      1. Many searchers have solved two clues
      2. An even greater number of non-searchers have physically been to the starting point, completely unfamiliar with Forrest Fenn and the Chase
      3. The identity of home of Brown can be guessed at, but that is not a complete clue
      4. “Put in below the home of Brown” can also be guessed correctly, only because there are a finite number of such places — assuming you’ve correctly guessed hoB
      5. Anyone who has not solved “NF, BTFTW” will have little confidence that they have the correct home of Brown, and even less confidence that they have the correct “put in”

      As for your belief that “small geographic items will be the only thing to lead you there,” I would counter that anything too small to be on a map is also likely to be too small to be permanent or immovable, making them poor choices for a treasure hunt that could theoretically last decades or even centuries.

      At least one of us is wrong. Statistically it is in fact likely that both of us are.

      • Hi Zaphod, I totally agree with much of what you have said and the first 4 items on your list, but I’m a bit confused on #5. You have just said in #4 that you do believe 3 and 4 can be guessed correctly. Then you seem to go backwards to say that you have to solve NF.BTFTW or you can’t have any confidence in your chosen/guessed HOB and put in. I agree that a guess is not necessarily going to inspire confidence, but it seems to me that confidence would come if you continue to be able to find the answers to the rest of the clues following HOB and the put in. I’m not clear how you can actually “solve” NF,BTFTW. Do you mean in terms of actual miles or whatever distance? Because it seems to me you can only figure that out after you have figured out WWWH and HOB and measured the distance between the two. I don’t see how you can deternine exactly how far NF,BTFTW is in terms of distance otherwise–it’s just so subjective. For ff when he was young, he walked 91 miles. For me, I’m disabled so it would be a very short distance. For ff at the age when he finalized the poem, who knows what he was thinking. IMO, I just feel like it’s a way of saying that the distance you take it (IMO your quest or journey down canyon to HOB and the put in is just far enough that there is no reason to just walk it so take a form of transportation which, based on other things ff has said, is a suggestion to drive, especially since we know he did, until he parked his car. So I’m curious what you meant by “solve” in this instance? Thanks, librarylady

      • Hi librarylady,

        “You have just said in #4 that you do believe 3 and 4 can be guessed correctly. Then you seem to go backwards to say that you have to solve NF.BTFTW or you can’t have any confidence in your chosen/guessed HOB and put in.”

        What I mean is that “guessing” is basically a dart throw, with nothing to back it up, and nothing to keep you locked in at that spot. And even correctly guessing hoB does little for you IMO because you have to “put in below” hoB, and hoB in and of itself doesn’t tell you how far below — feet, miles? If you have only guessed and not actually solved, what’s to keep you there if subsequent answers don’t immediately present themselves? Compounding guesses upon guesses is much like Forrest’s comment about hunches — it’s not going to get you to the bank.

        “I’m not clear how you can actually “solve” NF,BTFTW. Do you mean in terms of actual miles or whatever distance?”

        I think it’s a clever, precisely solvable clue and the answer does not take the form of a distance.

        “I don’t see how you can determine exactly how far NF,BTFTW is in terms of distance otherwise–it’s just so subjective.”

        Everyone thinks it’s a distance to be determined. And that, IMO, is why they don’t solve it.

        • Ok thank you for clarifying, Zaphod. I just wasn’t sure what you meant. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and agree that guesses alone are not going to get any of us very far without additional confirmation.

          • Hi FD: “everyone” was a poor word choice; should have said “the vast majority.” I’m happy to hear you’re an exception. 🙂

          • Zap – I can usually follow your thinking even if I don’t agree with it, but you lost me on this one! Not a distance? Interesting. Can’t say I ever saw it any other way, but perhaps you are on to something. One never knows. Thanks a lot Zap….now I’ll be spinning my wheels and getting stuck in those deep ruts for days! LOL! 😉

          • Mine is a bit over 1.25 miles between WWWsH and TC location for my “Small Area Solve.” About 20 miles for my “Big Picture Solve.” – JDA

          • Hi frank: that’s pretty far for maintaining the contiguous-ness of the clues, but I suppose workable if your canyon is sufficiently long.

          • From my WWH to HOB it is a hair over 29 miles, as the crow flies. And to where I think the chest sits, it is about 40 miles, as the crow flies. If you drive from WWH to where I think the chest is (IMO) it is about 83.5 miles. Pretty crazy, huh?? Lol

            All IMO…

            TimM

          • Zap – you say that its pretty far for maintaining contiguous- ness of the clues , well zap that 25.52 is just from wwwh to hob , at hob is where you turn right to the rest of the clues or north all the way to where the treasure chest is —- frank

          • frank,

            Explain to me how a searcher starts at WWsH, apparently drives down, around, through, a canyon and ends up at line 4 of stanza 2 with just two clues solved?

            I see at least 3 or 4 clues are needed to get within a striking distance of a 500′ or less of the spot the chest lays in wait.
            How can “many” “a lot” of searcher be this close without solving three or more clues?

            It doesn’t matter to me if its 25 miles or 250 miles… a third clue is needed to have searchers stop In your case its seems to be hoB or the put in near it. But those folks only solved two clues, right?
            { related comments from 2013 til the time of the possible first for clues might have been solved comment }.
            Dean has; 86 mile
            Tim has; 29 miles
            JDA as; umm 1.25 to an overall 20 miles

            While Zap is saying: Everyone thinks it’s a distance to be determined. And that, IMO, is why they don’t solve it.

            In any of those cases a *third clue* must be solved… be it a known distance of travel or the next spot to go to, or not a distant.
            Yet, “people figured the first two clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”

            Zaps comment is about the only comment that could relate to how the first two clues solvers manage to get close without the 3rd or 4th clue.

            OK… with that all said, my major point is this; It seems that is not unlikely to solve the first two clues at the same time. Even little Indy, someone from TX, and a guy from a place Churchill visited can do this with just a GE/ a map of the RMs’

            Why is the third clue such a stumper?
            Might it be that clues 3 n 4 need solving at the same time as well?

            Just because there are stanzas that separate from the next stanza, or lines or sentences, we are looking at *only* clues. LOL, so I’m back to my very old question; how many clues create an answer we need? [ to actually move forward ].
            Example; why can’t stanza 2 have four clues to produce a *single place* of it’s own?

          • Yes Seeker, I believe that in order for a searcher to start walking the right direction, thereby getting them closer than 200 feet to the TC, the 3 and 4th clues need to be solved together. Either that or NFBTFTW and PIBTHOB combined only represent one clue. We know that people may have solved 4 but no word whatsoever about anyone possibly solving only 3. What does that tell you?

          • Aaron,
            The first four clues are four clue in order, are they not?
            Technically clue 3 can be solved on it’s own for the sole fact fenn created 9 clues [ or ended up with 9 ]… He feels there is a “clue #3.”

            But, just because a clue is a clue doesn’t say two or more clues are not needed for a final answer to anything.

            However, with the first two clues comments and the one about the first four clues.. it almost seems that multiple clues might be needed for single answer.. be that answer a place, direction, instruction or what is needed to be done or combination of…etc.

            Yet, all I keep seeing is a break down of lines as a single clue and answer for something… normally aving to do with a physical place… and ending up with 9 individual places.

            fenn said he could write the solve on a sticky note…
            I have attempted to do this [ mostly with the observational method ].
            For example;
            A. Go to WWsH view southward down a canyon, locate hoB. {lest call that 4 clues}
            {This includes NR,BTFTW as a none movement idea for seeing what needs finding, because we don’t walk anywhere… we don’t leave the poem.}
            B. Wait for the right time for hoB to show the location of the chest. Because it is the blaze that reveals the hidey spot.
            {this includes the instructions I see in stanza 3 and the reason to *not walk* or you leave the poem}.
            End of the sticky note solve, theory. A & B.

            Now, you seem to have most of your solve within a 200′ foot area, correct?

            OK… My can be of the same, yet, the clues that represent physical places can be large, even very large. Lets take the canyon for example; it can be many miles long, only I use it as a point to look towards in a certain direction of down { down being on a map of southward }. HoB can still be 500′ from WWsH, and the chest be within 200′ of hoB.. relatively speaking.

            Not unlike that explanation of stanza 2, stanza 3 can produce a single idea, action of a searcher, with decipher 4 other clues.
            In this case; “Look quickly down” would be the last clue…

            All physical clues could be found on a map… in “A Place on a map” /GE however, the method of utilizing the clue’s references is just different than what we hear folks doing.

            I repeated this { I’m sure you have heard me give this example before } because, it seems when we attempt to break down a single clue as a single answer… the scale of the search area increases. Normally because many feel the last thing to be “found” is the blaze at the very end of a path taken.

            I simply disagree… we should have been told what we need to look for, as to what the blaze is. “BEEN wise and FOUND the blaze” {past tense}… But in my mind the blaze is to be used, not just found. It may not point in any direction… but it can be used as a pointer.

            Example: If I stand a stick in the ground… does it point in any direction? Nope, it’s just a stick in the ground. Add light and you have a pointer.
            Sundials work in the same manner, only they produce a different shadow during different seasons. Structure built thousand of years ago, in all parts of the world, work off the same idea. Is it so far fetch fenn used the blaze to do the same-?- to find a hidey spot within his place he calls his own?

            WE nicknamed fenn’s spot as “the hidey spot” but what are we really looking for?
            ~Fenn’s place that is dear to him, right? do you think that is a 10″ sq spot?
            ~ We are also looking for a Blaze… something that will show where fenn “hid” “secret” his trove.

            Hence; the poem is now complete (completed) The blaze did it job. It showed him and the finder where the chest lays in wait.

          • “ A. Go to WWsH ”
            ————————
            You gonna need a bigger post-it-note.

            How’d you figure out wwwh?

          • Cause you blew past how you figured out how to go to wwwh. You didn’t put a complete solve on your post-it-note.

          • Well Seeker there are some things I can sort of agree with you on.
            You said:
            “it seems when we attempt to break down a single clue as a single answer… the scale of the search area increases.”

            I do think that the clues are connected in such a way that breaking down a single clue as a point to point doesn’t seem like the right way to go about it. The first two clue finders probably went about it that way, didn’t understand where they were, and look where it got them. Understanding the key word and how it all fits together to make the cake connects the clues IMO. In other words, solving the poem.

            I’ll reply to your comment about time. I do believe we need to decipher what the poem is saying. When you say: “LOOK QUICKLY implies a time factor.
            For something to cease… the quest.
            BUT TARRY SCANT implies another time factor, as possibly don’t linger too long. But GAZE long enough { another time factor } with marvel.”

            Those things seem imply moving fast. I’m unsure how you turned tarry scant with marvel gaze into the fact that we need to gaze “long enough”. Care to explain?
            I do believe that time can be involved in the solution, sort of, and for other reasons.

          • Aaron ~*I’m unsure how you turned tarry scant with marvel gaze into the fact that we need to gaze “long enough”. Care to explain?*

            You basically answered it… Long enough means only a short time. Hence the reason for it to be in the poem.

            Others feel it mean we need to sneak out fast so we don’t get caught… as if we’re doing something wrong or need to leave for the fear of being robbed or bears in the area… etc. So why did he say to bring a six-pack to celebrate once the chest is found… IF we need to get the hell out of there.

            Get the hell out of there imo, means we need to move because of this short time span.
            I see it as a time span for what we need to see that will last on short time. So don’t linger too long.. things change quickly.
            So look at it this way; I’m standing in a spot where the blaze can be seen from… a morning sunrise hits said blaze creating a shadow… in just a short amount of time that shadow moves throwing the exact spot off… so linger but for a short time, because you need to now move to that spot before the shadow slips off the precise spot.

            Now, I know this is not a likable scenario for many because it means there are more instructions that places in the poem. The chest, technically, being found on one or two day of the year, and it may require “planning” an overnight stay.
            A redneck, pickup, family, bedroll… another BS comment that means nothing or hold some truth, line of thinking.

            Think about; no one will find the TC on “spring break” or a “Sunday picnic”
            Do we blow those repeated comment off as no one can buy the book, get the poem and solve it in a day or a couple weeks?
            Or
            Is there truth in those comments when it can’t be done.
            Not in spring time… pack it in for the winter… a Sunday picnic is never held in the morning… wait till the mud drys… hid the chest in Summer… done in one afternoon, yet walked less than a few miles doing it {twice}.. Followed his own clues before the poem was complete (completed)

            Most would say these are safety “only” comments or they mean nothing at all… I don’t think they are that disposable.
            Even the comment IF you “know exactly” where the “chest” is you probably can “retrieve it” in any weather, right? Key words here are “Know exactly” and “retrieving”… nothing about following the clues.

          • fundy ~*Cause you blew past how you figured out how to go to wwwh. You didn’t put a complete solve on your post-it-note.*

            I don’t care it ya Pogo Stick to WWsH.

            I surmise that we {fenn} parked as close as we {he} can to, not only the first clue, but the location of all the clues… and hiked to them.
            ~The path will not be direct { the clues } for those who have no certainty of the location beforehand.
            If you want to do a drive-by sighting, or go to another clue, knock your socks off.
            I’m physically going to be at WWsH and I’ll be getting there by hiking from my vehicle to it.

          • Hi Aaron, in your comment about 1 mile,

            to estimate this, I’ve tried to “walk a mile in his shoes” as it were, (using all available knowledge about ff’s health, the weight to bring.. and other factors like altitude and rocky mnt trails and forests) to determine a reasonable distance where an almost 80 year old would choose to make two trips, rather than 1 trip. he has also given actual distance quotes and time quotes and even terrain quotes (steep climbs).

            to put that in context, say you needed to walk 5 feet.. would you (or ff) split that into two loads in your backpack… then stretch that to such and such distances.

            where that becomes “two trips” is important, and pretty easy to determine an approximate dist. given his quotes about distance, and time and terrain…

          • Hi Writis, why not get an 80 year old in good shape and see how far they can carry that weight, or maybe an average 73 year old?

        • Hey Zap,
          Regarding NFBTFTW, do you think it’s a geographical location? I just thought of a reasonable solution to the logic puzzle and for me it wouldn’t point to a specific place, but rather a direction towards an area, that area shares a name with the logic puzzles solution.

          In other words, I’m exploring the possibility that the answer to NFBTFTW modifies “take it in the canyon down” all in my ever evolving opinion.

    • I disagree with you GB- If he drove to location which is not far but to far to walk he did not but botg till he got to where he parked – by then he had already driven past all the clues its my opinion that the clues are not for botg – they are just clues to get you to the treasure chest – the only time he put botg was when he walked from his car to where he hid the TC jmo —-frank

      • frank;

        Are you saying that IF the last clue is the blaze, that he drove to the blaze, got out of his car and walked a very short distance to where he hid Indulgence? If the distance is this small, if he is parked next to the blaze, why did it take him one afternoon, and two trips? Just anskin’ – JDA

        • JDA – I did not say that the blaze is the last clue – from the blaze you still have to go north to in the wood then go to the end or north of in the wood-your efforts will be worth the cold JDA imo he parked south of in the wood and walked less then I/4mile from his car to the TC not 1/4 mile but less . the blaze is not the last clue

          • Hi frank;

            I know that you had not stated that the blaze was the last clue. I only said that because so many do think that the blaze is the last clue.

            Regardless of what your last clue is, my question is the same. You said you park at the last clue, very close to where the TC is (less than 1/4 mile) – so, why two trips? Why did it take an afternoon to secret it? It would seem that even an 80 years old man could carry 42 lbs less than 1/4 mile in one trip – Again, just askin’ – JDA

        • JDA,
          My thoughts on this are as follows. I would assume Forrest could pass by most of the clues (which could be quite a distance apart) without having to follow them himself. {Maybe a route he took when he was younger – thus the clues and the order they are in}
          Let’s assume one has to follow those clues exactly to end up on the correct side of a river, or a valley etc. As Forrest would know the correct place to be, he would also know the closest place to park to walk to where he places the TC. {Which might mean a longer drive to get to that point (a round about way), yet might be why he says “too far to walk?”}
          Now if the treasures resting spot is a long distance from where he was staying – the drive, the time placing the treasure (including two walks too and from his vehicle) and the return drive may have used up a good part of an afternoon. Or, he may have hung around doing some fishing while he was at it?
          Who knows… just thinking that there could be a lot of reasons why it took an afternoon, but I do not think he was terribly far from his vehicle. Could be a mile or so from where he parked… or could be much less, and still fit things Forrest has stated. IMO.
          One day, you or someone else will let us know exactly when you recover it!

          • HotL;

            You say: ” I would assume Forrest could pass by most of the clues (which could be quite a distance apart) without having to follow them himself. ”

            Forrest has said::

            Question posted 6/20/2014:

            I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

            When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

            Thank you Curtis

            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

            Seems to me that Forrest did NOT skip any clues, even though he was familiar with the area – JDA

          • P.S. Thanks for saying that I (or someone else) COULD be the finder. See the smiley face – 🙂 JDA

        • JDA – in the wood is not a walk in the park , when you have rolling hills and 6 in. of debris that is from a creek that over flows and its left there when the creek drys up- that’s the two trips

          • oh and this for hotl – if you walk or drive you have to go by all the clues if you want to or not- you don’t have to stop at every clue- and when you come back- you have to go by the same clues again

  23. LibraryL
    Question::, : Have any clue as to why
    your icon! avatar changed from blue to green with diff pattern (early am 2/20) and now back to blue?

    • Batty, if you use a Cell Phone or a Desk Top computer on the internet they will each have a separate identifying location, a combination of markers that describe your device and location…I have one here that is Green with my cell and one that is Pinkish, from my desktop, I could even have another from a laptop at work, but I still sign-on as the same email and user name. Tom Terrific.

      • Thanks Tom Terrific for answering that because I totally didn’t know the answer! And I do post from various computers depending where I am at the time-home with laptop, home on cell phone, work on various computers.

  24. Frank-
    I meant that for you to solve the clue you must have boots on the ground. Meaning you have to physically be there. If you were taking it in the canyon down… then you would see WHY
    it is Not far, but too far to walk.
    And there are other things to do BEFORE he pulled his car into his secret parking place. “How about “Put in below the home of Brown.” Lots of clues to complete before he parked his car.

    • GB – imo you can solve the clues from home on the computer using a GE map- I think that canyon down is the bottom of the canyon where you start at wwwh,then you take it in or go up to hob, wwwh is east,and you have to go west or up for it to be below hob – below hob is just a direction for you to go west or up from wwwh to hob. imo he had nothing to do- but get in his car- and drive to where he parked – all his work was done before- he took the TC – imo he to used the computer to look at- or look for the clues and wrote the poem -I think that he only went to go check where he was going to hide the TC.this is just an opinion and nothing more

    • I am pleased that Forrest filed a counter suit rather than just let it roll. In my opinion he needed to send a cautionary message to folks attempting to take advantage of his wealth and generous character.

    • Thank you for the link, randawg. It’s a shame it had to come to this. Mr. Fenn should be keeping busy making flies for the coming (warmer) fly fishing trips and playing tug-of-war with Willie.

    • It turns out that the plaintiff admitted he made a mistake and asked to be let out of the lawsuit. Both the lawsuit and Forrest’s counter lawsuit have been set aside.
      Some people only act responsibly when their hand is forced…

      • What a waste of everyone’s time and money.

        At away to blaze those inflammatory allegations Forrest.

      • Glad to hear this Dall! Research on the plaintiff’s background shows he has a history of being litigious. I hope this will discourage people from trying to extort money out of Forrest this way.

        • don’t blame the person, blame the system that allows “frivolous” to go unpunished, and I mean punish the lawyer too… even if dropped later. (when they realize the person/corp will fight back)

    • randawg – that’s just shameful – what sort of desperately sad person would ever consider prosecuting anyone for NOT being smart enough to find the TC?!

      ..i mean, what’s society coming to nowadays – tsk tsk!!

      [ ..frantically googles the phone number of O.J’s lawyer]
      🙂

      • Good to see you back in the saddle again Hobs. Just dial up any time if you have a Q for Mr O. I’m assuming of course you haven’t found the treasure yet. I’ve got all the answers you know. You are looking for it aren’t you? Or are you just hanging around for entertainment? BTW, you should get a new photo done. You kind of look like a muppet. Just sayin’.

  25. It just goes to show that man’s nature goes nuts in when money is involved. So, you have to even question yourself, if you found the treasure, what would you actually do with it? Most would blow it, but if you planned correctly, the value could make a difference in generations to come. It would seem that would be the thing to do?

  26. Dal, I want to thank you for your coverage and support of your friend Mr. Fenn.
    After visiting the state of NM three times and in those three searches I have worked three jobs, my hope is to have enough saved to retire in the Land of Enchantment. I have met very nice, educated, ordinary people that are not crazy but interested in a journey using mapping, researching and literary skills to solve a mystery. Thank you for your leadership in sharing the facts and managing the communications.

    The Crazy teacher from Detroit.
    Karen Ruth

    • The Crazy teacher from Detroit.
      Karen Ruth, well Karen you are not Crazy unless it is like a fox, if you have decided to come to the Southern Rockies to spend some golden years of enchantment. Congrats on your’ find, the treasure is already in your hands! Do not tell anyone your secret.

      Often in my life here in the Southern Rockies I have skied in the mornings and played golf in shorts in the afternoon, just one of the small perks of life, we are commonly known as the “land of freezing sunburns” it is a title and color I often wear when I forget my sunscreen, but speaking of red THE QUESTION HERE is simply do you like it red or green?… your chilies, for evening enchiladas I mean, so a million new thoughts will engage your mind as you discover the patchwork of cultures here, we are like a colorful quilt there are many colors in our landscape and on our plate we like them all. Welcome home.

      TT

  27. JDA-

    My “big picture solve” was also 20 miles from WWWH in the beginning based on his 20 mile bike ride to his bathing spot. But when TFTW came out, I was convinced that his preface was the strong hint for 10 miles which was now too far for him to walk. So I have been trying to make the 10 mile solve work. I never saw too many folks talk about the ten mile quote. Did you ever give that much thought as a hint? IMO
    kDD

    • kidd;

      As it happens, in my “Big Picture Solve” – it is almost exactly 10 miles from WWWsH to hoB, where I change direction and go a bit over 9 miles to where I thought TC should be. I have now shortened that 9 + miles to a bit over 7.

      Yes, I thought that the 10 miles mentioned in the preface to TFTW was a hint, and was important. I think Forrest published this new info (hint) since many searchers were going WAY too far from, WWWsH to their hoB –
      Their “canyon” was WAY too long – JMO – JDA

  28. Seeker, this post is for you (or others who have a similar opinion) since the comment I made yesterday likely got lost among all the other posts.

    Your interpretation of “and take it in the canyon down” as an instruction to make a specific observation from the location at WWH sounded good to me until I thought a bit more about it. We know ff has said a few searchers solved the first 2 clues because they told him exactly where they were. Assuming ATIITCD is the second clue, and that clue is to mean that we need to observe something, how exactly would ff know those searchers solved that clue by telling him where they were?

    The only way I can try to explain this myself is to say that ATIITCD was observed correctly by those searchers and then the searchers went to the location they observed, then told ff where they were. But if ATIITCD is only meant to observe something from WWH as you have suggested, and it is a stand-alone clue (doesn’t need NF,BTFTW or other clues to obtain the correct location to go) then how would ff know that clue had been solved?

    If ATIITCD is a specific location, then ff would know a searcher had solved that clue when the searcher told them exactly where they were. If ATIITCD is an observation, then telling ff where you are wouldn’t guarantee to him that you observed the correct thing.

    Something else to consider.. If NF,BTFTW is needed in conjunction with ATIITCD to know how far away your observable object/location is in order to go to said location, then wouldn’t ff have said searchers solved the first 3 clues once they told him where they were? He has stated that some searchers may have solved the first 4 clues but he’s not sure.

    So if WWH is the first location, ATIITCD is an observation, and NFBTFTW is a distance that is needed with ATIITCD to find a second location, then it seems logical to me that ff would have said the first 3 clues, not 2, have been correctly solved after a searcher(s) told him where they were. The only way to reconcile this would be to say ATIITCD and NFBTFTW is actually combined to make clue #2.

    So do you consider ATIITCD and NFBTFTW to be a single clue (clue #2)? If so, how does that affect the 9 clues for you? If you previously or currently considered those to be 2 separate clues, how would you explain the way ff knew clue #2 (ATIITCD) was solved if he only knew the location of the searcher(s)?

    • DL, hard for me to tell if FF considers both ATIITCD and NFBTFTW to be clues, or if one is more observational so not or clue, or one is in conjunction with another line to combine as one clue. Either way here are my assumptions:
      1) If only one of these lines is a clue then the clues end with cease.
      2) If both of these lines are clues then the clues end with blaze.
      3) FF likely knew that the first two clues were solved because of where the people walked to. If ATIITCD is a clue then the searchers probably started at WWWH and traversed down the canyon, reaching a point past all of the clues, then let FF know where he was. By doing this he automatically got the second clue right, and walked pass all of the rest.
      4) If NFBTFTW is considered the second clue by FF then either the same can apply.
      Either way, I am following the instructions as if I was making a cake. If I get to the blaze and feel the next line is needed so be it. It doesn’t sound that possible however, to find the blaze and not find the chest, so why need that next line?

      • Aaron;

        What if the blaze is somehow a “pointer” – something that “points” to another location? Maybe a shadow, or a Marking on the ground that “points” to something in the near distance? Maybe a “fault line”???

        “But tarry scant – etc.” Don’t hesitate, go to where this marker points to – line of thinking.

        Stanza #5 and 6 could then be the detailed instructions as to what to look for when you “Follow the pointer” – Just a thought – JDA

        • JDA, what about this quote from MW:
          Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey

          Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f
          http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-blaze-measurement/

          He said the answer to how far the chest was would be obvious once the blaze is found. He didn’t say anything about solving other clues following the finding blaze. Okay, I suppose you could say a shadow is showing the distance, and therefore the statement is still correct. I don’t see anything in the poem referencing a shadow, or how we can figure out the specific time of day, on a specific day in order to find the location of the chest. That just doesn’t sound like simplifying the poem.

          • I don’t have the quote but I believe he has also said something like, “I can’t imagine someone finding the blaze but not finding the treasure”. Something like that anyway.

            The instruction right after the blaze is to look down because the quest is over. I assume that means that once at the blaze, you are also at the chest’s resting place.

          • Aaron ~ *I don’t see anything in the poem referencing a shadow, or how we can figure out the specific time of day, on a specific day in order to find the location of the chest. That just doesn’t sound like simplifying the poem.*

            Don’t we need to decipher what the poem is saying, rather than a blatant explanation?

            LOOK QUICKLY implies a time factor.
            For something to cease… the quest.
            BUT TARRY SCANT implies another time factor, as possibly don’t linger too long. But GAZE long enough { another time factor } with marvel.

            While we can debate if they are clues, hints, instruction or whatnots… there seems to be a need to know time is of the essence for a reason. The question is; why?
            Why add this to the poem if there is not a message the author wanted to relay involving our QUEST TO CEASE?

            Maybe it’s me but ya’ll seem to read this poem in a linear fashion, meaning if something is said later, it has nothing to do with prior information.
            Finding the blaze is what we need to do.. so unless the chest is right there.. there seem to be a time related action we need to do to find the chest… The quest part of our task {the reward for solving the poem} something that happens for only a short time…

            What about the 12′ comment; someone that close to the blaze and not finding the chest?
            10″ vs. a 12 foot area can “hide” out of sight a lot of 10″ chest. Are we supposed to dig up 144 sq feet of land to find the chest? LOL how small is this blaze we seek?

            I mean If we’re standing at WH or HLNWH… assuming this is the location of the blaze because its the last thing mentioned… what gives up the Blaze for what it is? a tree, a stone, a mark, an owls nest?

            The chest won’t be stumble upon, right? so by this time in the poem “HLnWH” we should know what the blaze is… if not then the blaze is nothing more than a poke and hope when someone gets to the last mentioned physical place in the poem which seems to be WH. Nothing here sound precise to me.

            But if the blaze is meant for a searcher to *use* in some manner, then it becomes a pointer.. yet still doesn’t actually point in any direction. Something is needed though… something we can LOOK and GAZE at… something that works with the blaze that shows us the obvious distance and direction and spot the chest is hidden.

            In one reading of the poem anyways.

          • Seeker,

            It is certainly possible that time plays a factor in some way with the search, but I’m not one who thinks a specific time of year or time of day is necessary to find the chest other than generally summertime in favorable conditions.

            “Look quickly” doesn’t really speak to me, and “tarry scant” has already been confirmed with Dal’s recording. And the “bring a six pack” comment you seem to be reading into just a bit too much imo.

            You have some good ideas and your posts have led me to consider different ways of interpreting the poem which is appreciated. If I could, I’d humbly suggest trying to simplify a bit.

            Side note, I’m curious about what you think of my post earlier pertaining to the ATIITCD view that you currently have. I was on board with that style of thinking about that clue for quite a while but it’s starting to make less sense now. I’d be happy to expand on what I think it could mean in a separate post

          • Distant Logic ~*. If I could, I’d humbly suggest trying to simplify a bit*

            I have no problems in the idea of; trying to simplify the clues… fenn has told us it’s not a matter of trying it’s a matter of thinking, tell us to think and analyze, even use imagination and plan and observe. And from the very beginning stated; “it’s difficult but not impossible.”

            I just don’t adhere to the idea of simplification or the KiSS method right from the get go… this was meant to be challenging, and it was created over a decade in the making… Just simplify doesn’t work for me.

            I said it before; my idea is the poem is something almost all are creating an illusion out of.. be that this is a conventional style, dot to dot, pirate treasure hunt… I think the poem is being read wrong by many, or at the very least, read with a precondition notion that we need to only follow by going from point to point.
            In my mind the method is flawed. So I’m looking at thing differently.. not only because I think the poem can be read in different manners [ I have always thought that ] but basically because… there are some smart folks in this search and I have a hard time with everyone simply taking a wrong turn here or there. There are just too many failed searchers and all are seemingly doing the same method for 10 years.

            Heck, I created dozens of point by point theories. The one thing I noticed [beside the obvious, I may not have started in the correct place] all those solved relied on mapping all clues out.. almost forcing me to pick something just to make it plausible, an almost always being far apart. I think this is what fenn was relying on.. the illusion we create on our own.

            Folks like to say “Take it in” can only mean the most obvious, straight up, first in line definition, most commonly used term, as to move into somewhere.
            But, if you look at the poem as looking from WWsH.. things change. So I did too. But for the life of me I can’t understand how folks say that definition is too bizarre, or not common, etc.

            IT means what it means.
            No, DL, What I see is many just don’t want to adjust. Their desire is to keep it simple rather than trying to simplify a difficult poem. I’m here to chat with those who want to think about it all.. just slightly different.. from the norm of 10 years running.

          • Seeker, I’m with you in the thought that this is not a point to point, 9 clue 9 location “treasure map” of sorts. I too think that some clues need to be combined to find a particular location and that some of the clues may be directional and not just a location. The reason I have singled you out in my post is because you seem to think fairly close to the way I think about the poem. I don’t mean to disparage you or anyone else’s ideas here at all. I too like the discussion.

            My thoughts have evolved in the last couple months since discovering all of this and since my thought, like yours, of ATIITCD being an observation of sorts has changed I was hoping to discuss it a bit with you. I had posted how my thought changed and I was curious about how you view my change in thinking. It just seems that ATIITCD, if an observation as well as a stand alone clue (clue #2), is true, then how could find know that observation was made by previous searchers simply by those searches telling ff where they were. As I said previously, if lines 2 and 3 of stanza 2 were combined as one single clue to reveal a location then this could make your theory plausible, otherwise it just doesn’t quite make sense to me anymore. Not that you need to prove anything to me lol but I am curious how you think about it.

          • Distant Logic,

            Even though I say clue 1 or 2 I really don’t know what a clue is as far as which line hold a clue or clues… my basic thinking is the clues are within WWsH and end with take the chest… How I read the poem is completely different than trying to find a clue here or there… however, fenn made it clear clue one is “begin it where warm waters halt” With out it we might as well stay home.

            With that said, and one of my err complaints / complaining… why can the next line { ATIITCD } help with what we do at the first clue? My idea is if it helps and get us on the right tract to getting us closer, it of itself should be a clue… combine or otherwise.

            So I see WWsH as the starting point to be at, and added with the next line to explain what we do at the first clue… look towards a direction of “down” Not far from where we start from But don’t travel [walk} to what we need to find.
            The question is: what are we looking for. The next line is PIBTHOB… so my summation is we are looking for the hoB.

            Yet there is mention of a “put in” right?
            One of two things needs to happen here… we go to look for a “Put In” place without anything o tell us where that is or where we go..
            Or seeing we are still at WWsH and looking at hoB, “Put In” could be instructing us to look below, or down, from hoB.

            Now we have stanza 3 to consider… what do we do with this stanza is we haven’t moved yet?
            Do we attempt to find some scary place, a ghost town, a place where bears hang out, some trail JoeMeek may have traveled… the list can be endless.
            IF we are observing from WWsH and have found hoB and need to loo below it… when do we do this?
            The line FTINPFTM seems to imply a reason for the word place [ call it another important keyword word if ya like ] means to be in a situation.
            So what kind of situation can one be in, in the mountains, with all its nature that would be no place for the meekish… I simply surmised darkness.
            But why?
            Weel if we need to still look at hob and below it we need to know what we are supposed to see…. This is where the theory gets a bit odd… for hoB to be important enough not to go to but look below it… something need to happen for us to watch.
            This is why I think hoB is the blaze. It’s is mentioned in the poem, but I think to see hoB correctly you need to be on site.. a map or GE only sees it from up top. So this idea tells me that we need to see the blaze tell us where to go… NO PLACE being a possible situation might be an over-nite stay for an early morning sun rise.. needed on a certain day, in summer, references by; the end is ever [ always ] drawing [ approaching ] nigh [near] the end of night.

            The paddle idea may receive some help from the book as JUNE is always right.. the right month to search on a day know for something.

            With all that repeated; some just don’t like the idea of a day or two that would be needed to have the blaze we found and wise to utilize as a pointer, only be done on or near this day in June.
            I get it, it suck for all those who search every season, including winter.
            But what would say to you about certainty in a theory if you knew where it all took place at?

            Hence fenn’s warning; The path [the clues] will not be direct for those who had no certainty of the “location” [where all the clues are at] beforehand.

            Ok I repeated that all again, so you can explain what your differences and/or concerns are.
            But again… it doesn’t matter to me what you consider a clue… I just would like to see an idea that keeps the poem intact from start to finish where it is all needed. with no possibility of skipping over or driving by something.

            We need all the ingredient… that is what I call the big picture idea… all the clues mesh together.. they are all of one thing. IMO that thing is to observe the poem become one, in of itself. Not 9 different places to travel.

            Hit me with what ya got… would love to dance around your thoughts.

          • “ I just would like to see an idea that keeps the poem intact from start to finish where it is all needed. with no possibility of skipping over or driving by something.”
            ———————-
            You again skipped over what points you to the correct wwwh.

            Hence, the cart is before the horse.

          • Good point FD.

            Seeker, perhaps finding WWWH first will help point you to the process needed. In any case you’ll need to find it to test this theory.

          • Aaron,

            The whole point is to find WWsH to even attempt a physical test of a theory.

            I have no idea why Fundy is repeating the obvious. The theory I present is not unlike any other idea… it’s all about how the poem can be read.
            However,
            There are two basic idea;
            1. a point to point travel [ stomping ] of clue reference to walk up to the blaze.
            2. An observational theory that basically *uses* physical clue’s references to find the hidey spot.

            The main difference between these methods is; the point by point seemingly wants 9 different physical place to travel to. This method makes a searcher / reader of the poem, to hope lines like NPFTM to be an actual location… whatIF its not?

            I have read this poem as many times as anyone else… I can not come up with 9 physical references without stretching the snots out of it all.
            For example; BIWWWsH ATIINTCD.
            AT the most, this is two references of physical land features.
            NF,BTFTW I don’t see a land feature here. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a clue.
            PIBTHOB. While some like to see two places here.. basically a land feature and another place involving where a search needs to go into something, I see it as one place at this point in time in the poem.
            Here’s the difference. For me, this is the end of the physical features… there’s no other physical places… the rest of the clues are instructions.
            But a point to point method forces more places, it needs more places because it needs the blaze.

            I’m simply saying the blaze was already found. The question is; did any searcher realized they found it? In every solve I ever read the searcher keeps going looking for more physical clues / place to go to.
            LOL just because there are 9 “clues” doesn’t mean there are 9 points to stomp to.

            Fundy stated; *You again skipped over what points you to the correct wwwh.*

            What exactly are you implying?
            We are told we need to learn where /what WWsH is.. what points a searcher or information used that get us there can’t not be considered clues.
            fenn as basically stated we need to find the location of where the search area is… then the clues lead us to the blaze/trove.
            Warning; the path {clues} would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location [search area] beforehand.

          • Aaron,

            I’ll add for thought;
            Put in: to do work, make effort, or spend time…

            Sure, folks don’t like reading all definitions, it seems. They just want it to me what they hope the words mean.

            In the observational idea.. Time is involved, an effort involving time is needed. there is [for lack of a better term, work to be done… meaning planning needs to be done.

            No one can convince me “time” no matter how short, is not involved. We have “look quickly” this tells us something involves time.
            Tarry Scant, involves Time. even if it is a short amount of time.
            Even gaze to mean; study, can have a time involvement.

            So, does time relate to how the poem can be interpreted? I think it’s a must because of the words fenn chose. So, why does “put in” have to mean a physical task *only*?

            The problem is… those words [lines] come after the “put in” and some here think, to use this idea is taking the clues out of order. I say it connect the entire poem.. to understand what: take it in, put in, look quickly, tarry scant, gaze, all have in common. This is my idea of keeping the poem intact. it works as a whole and not so much 9 different separate pieces that allows once a piece is used it has nothing to do with the other pieces.

          • Seeker,

            I’ve said that you’re putting the cart before the horse in your theory. It’s the same thing as what Aaron posted. Focusing on a middle process in the chain of events is not gonna help solve the poem, imo. This is because the foundation of the poem, and therefore anyone’s solve, is figuring where to drive one’s vehicle to the correct wwwh. You seem to understand that but your theory has no explanation for it so far in the very numerous times you have mentioned it.

            So, I could put forth my point to point solve of 9 clues and I could start that off with one of the clues besides the first and not mention what connection I figured out to get me to my first clue.

            But, I’d hope that you and most of the searchers would
            expose it for what it is lacking…a solid foundation which points one to the correct first clue. Also, why am I wasting time focusing on the middle of the poem by trying to explain a process that clearly hinges on a previous process (missing ingredients)?

            Also I’d say it does little harm to state the obvious from time to time, if it shows what violates the obvious.

            If you read more traditional solves, you’ll find one that doesn’t fit your description of “In every solve I’ve ever read, the searcher keeps looking for more physical clues/place to go to (sic- after finding their blaze).”

          • Fundy,

            Both methods need two things;
            The location of where all the clues are located and the deciphering of the WWsH clue reference to get started.

            If all anyone is doing is picking a WWsH and going to it… that’s a dart toss method. You can build from your foundation all day long, but you may not be in the right location… in so doing your forcing land features to make a solve work. This seems to be the overall method being used by many if not all.

            While I have said I don’t have a location to search nor the deciphered first clue… the attempt is to understand how folks who have been on site with all the clues being pasted by and eventually many getting within 500′ of the chest… all seems to relate to how they proceeded by the many solves we have read over 10 years.

            What I’m doning is analyzing the poem to remain intact as a whole… because separating clues by miles and movement in between is/has/still failing horribly.

            So I’m doing what fenn said he did to get the poem just right.. look up words and definition of words. And while attempting to read the poem by their meanings, I’m still trying to find the “location” one needs to be certain of, to be the correct location to search.

          • Seeker, when I go search my spot, if I do not find the TC at the spot I think the blaze is at I’ll go back to WWWH and do some observing. Why not? But I won’t wait there from sun up to sun down in hopes of a shadow telling me where to go.

          • Aaron

            If all you do is take a few moments to scan the area of WWsH with certain ideas in your head… that would be a great thing to do… because you already tried the stomping method. The thing to remember is you are still doing the same thing.. trying to discover the blaze. Don’t look for what you think other clue might be as physical features. Your look only for what could be hoB.
            BUT.. keep in mind, not all clues are of physical places… something else is being relayed… Directions [ to look in ] and instructions to act out.

            But you’re a smart guy… all you need to understand is the difference of where the sun would rise in summer vs. winter.

            Example; Every morning I travel a road facing east. To give perspective; the road is approx a 1/4 mile long to a T intersection. During the summer {june} the sun rises north of this road by the distance of 4 telephone poles [ you can figure out that distance ] In winter {dec} the sun rises slightly more than 3 poles on the south side of the intersection… all viewed from about 1300′ from said intersection.
            That’s a big difference to which way a shadow is cast from an object. In summer.. the cast is SW, in winter it’s NW and variations in between. Hence the idea a time of day and month is needed.

            The same idea can be applied on any given site with three factors known of; WWsH, hoB [where we see it to be] and knowing due east. depending on the distance to hoB and height … an estimation can be made if you can simply see where the sun should rise in summer. It may not pin point a spot, but give ya enough to have a peek in a general area… then turn around, an look at WWsH… would you consider it to be WH? or hoB to be HL?

            Just things to ponder while trying the experiment.

          • Seeker said-

            … the attempt is to understand how folks who have been on site with all the clues being pasted (sic- past) by and eventually many getting within 500′ of the chest… all seems to relate to how they proceeded by the many solves we have read over 10 years.
            ———————-

            I think I have a better answer to your concern above that I quoted. Better than how you have described your theory tackles it.

            I also don’t think focusing on that concern is gonna help you figure out the location of the tc. That isn’t the puzzle that f architected, imo.

            I’m curious in how many of the following poem words you feel f doesn’t use the most common meaning of?…

            As
            I
            have
            gone
            alone
            in
            there
            and
            with
            my
            can
            keep
            secret
            where
            hint
            of
            new
            old

            I’ll stop there for now…

          • Seeker, how come you are assuming that one hasn’t discovered the blaze at this point in time/location in your example below?…

            If all you do is take a few moments to scan the area of WWsH with certain ideas in your head… The thing to remember is you are still doing the same thing.. trying to discover the blaze.

          • Fundy,

            I have said many times… I think searchers could have found hoB not knowing what to do with it. Hence; stumped at the 3rd and 4th clues. In my theory hoB would be the blaze.

            In your point by point method, no one would look at hoB other than a *way-point.* They simply keep going… because the blaze is simply mentioned later. Only it is mentioned in past tense. Which can conclude the blaze is a prior physical clue [object]
            LOL It could be WWsH or a depiction describing WWsH. Just for fun; WWsH is in Glacier National Park, a glacier that is no longer, yet a stone monument tells of its excitement. The entire poem could be describing the ice-sheet beginning and end and the dang chest is hidden right there.
            Of course this theory can not be possible because we have ATFs that tell us it can’t be. hence the idea of a check n balance from the poem and ATFs is helpful.

            As far as the first stanza… What is common? Defined “common” meanings!!
            The idea of a word or word phrasing used more often, is BS in my book… a definition is a use of the word or words. period. But if ya don’t want to listen to how fenn looked up words, their defintions when writing the poem to get it just right… hey! keep on truckin.

            Everything needs context.. some choose the context to be the chase / journey / adventure…
            WhatIF the context is simply somewhere we know he has been a lone in?
            Both of the above would have different ideas to follow, right?

            Explain to me why “take it in” by its definition can’t be to take in a site, view, gaze upon… and related terms?
            Why can it only be what you think it should be… of a movement?

            So, it seems you’re imply that stanza 1 may hold the location or give information that could help… great!… I haven’t discovered it yet. But seeing you might be sure about it… I’m curious if you have gone there yet, and what the outcome was?

            It’s a waste of time to point out that stanza 1 does anything to get the searcher to the correct area unless you have done so.
            MY comments have been strictly a way of reading the poem as a whole where everything is needed for the full affect of all clues working as one unit [call it the confidence builder when it explains how to find the chest]… they [the clues] create a solve… not so much dancing by way points.

            You don’t need to tell all where WWsH is in your solve, but I’ll put ya on the spot {there’s over 3000 miles of RM’s involved and many WWsH}… tells us what you think WWsH represents in the real world.
            because telling me to just check out stanza one means nothing without something to actually talk about.

          • Oh! by the way FD,

            I know the quote you’re referring to… If all you have is those two clues { WWsH n in the Mountains N. of SF}.

            The Q&A says to me… you just can’t pick a single WWsH.. even if it represents the correct reference [although that would be nice] we need the search location first and foremost. Which I have implied many times. However, it seems that this piece of information is not a clue. All it does is to tell searcher where the clues are to be found… then the clues can start one towards the chest.

          • I don’t mind trying it Seeker. I’ll be there anyway.

            I know I mentioned this before, but I am of the assumption that understanding the poem will lead you to WWWH, and the correct process. I don’t know that coming up with a process before finding the former two will be useful. Again, I don’t mind giving it a shot thought if all else fails at my WWWH. And by the way I love this WWWH. To me it is obvious now that I’ve found it, and it can be nothing else. Of course, I know many have felt the same way.

          • Aaron ~ *. I don’t know that coming up with a process before finding the former two will be useful.*

            But hasn’t everyone done just that?
            Even before reading the poem, I’d bet a nickle, most of the readers of the book hadn’t considered any other method than following the dotted line. The many solves posted have shown the same method. {heck, all of them have a point to point process}

            It’s been my point for a while now.
            You can go back and read that many have stated; “Begin IT” is nothing more than the chase, the treasure hunt etc. {but you seem to know this already}

            That would be a bad start, IF it is a false precondition notion process, and will fail every time…
            Even with clues deciphered. {as many as the first four *possibly* solved to date}.
            *A good solve is frequently lost in a poor execution.

            I’m not trying to convince you or anyone… I’m only attempting to adjust to what I see has failed thousands of times over.

          • Seeker, I think you’re digging yourself into a deeper hole…

            You said-
            As far as the first stanza… What is common? Defined “common” meanings!!
            The idea of a word or word phrasing used more often, is BS in my book.

            If that’s the case, then how was I able to understand what I quoted you above saying?

            You used many of the same words that are in stanza one and one word “first” that f has used to describe BIWWWH as being the first clue. I think your explanation doesn’t stand on its own legs but reinforces mine.

            Many searchers were right in figuring out what f meant with the words begin, tarry scant before he added more context.

            You said-
            WhatIF the context is simply somewhere we know he has been a lone in?
            ———————
            Now you are making my point for me and arguing against yourself.

            You said-
            Explain to me why “take it in” by its definition can’t be to take in a site, view, gaze upon… and related terms?
            Why can it only be what you think it should be… of a movement?
            ———————
            It could be. I never said it couldn’t be. But, that’s different than me saying I think the point to point theory makes more sense to me as I reflect on “take it in” and other factors.

            Notice that the word “in” is in that phrase. Somehow you can use that word and expect me to understand the definition but I can’t.

            You said-
            It’s a waste of time to point out that stanza 1 does anything to get the searcher to the correct area unless you have done so.
            ———————-
            This is completely unreasonable. If you believe this, then talking about anything else further down in the solve process would be exponentially worse to talk about.

            You said-
            You don’t need to tell all where WWsH is in your solve, but I’ll put ya on the spot {there’s over 3000 miles of RM’s involved and many WWsH}… tells us what you think WWsH represents in the real world.
            because telling me to just check out stanza one means nothing without something to actually talk about.
            ———————
            Actually, just telling you what wwwh may represent means nothing if you first don’t give a reasonable process of why you focused on that wwwh. That’s the point I’ve been making. That’s a process of putting the cart before the horse.

          • Hello Fundamental Design. Your comment about “what wwwh may represent” caught my attention. From my understanding, it appears Bur believes it represents something, too. It makes me wonder if you’re both in the same area.

          • Fundy,

            Why not write up a summary for all to see on how your theory plays out, so we can discuss the ideas of each method side by side. This hopping back and forth from one thread to another with multiple conversations about this or that section of the poem is losing context to what is being relayed.

            I get what you’re saying about stanza 1…
            But my posting about the observational theory is only about how to read the poem… not finding WWsH.
            IT’s obvious we need to do that and decipher the rest of the poem… we just have a difference method of operation to what a searcher might need to do while on site.
            I’m more than happy to keep this debate/discussion/method going, but put up something we can read that gives your ideas of how thing play out on site.

          • Pdenver, not sure if Bur is focusing on the same area as me as I haven’t seen any recent posts from them.

          • Seeker, I can’t think of much more to give about what I’ve been saying.

            I just want to stick up each time for the point to point method if it is being mischaracterized by others like I just did downstream in replying to Bowmarc.

            Not less we are gonna go in the ring and only one comes out with the belt…lol. Where’s our judges?

          • Fundy,

            My suggestion was to get our discussion on one page with what we see and how we see it… so we’re not pouncing around through multiple threads.
            But to do that, you would need to explain the full point by point process the way you see it… as I did with the with the observational method.
            Getting bits and pieces of your method in a small debate spread out over pages and pages… idea get lost in the context they are presented at any given time.

            I don’t care about judges.. but if you feel you need them… write up your process of how this could all play out… and let others read it… they can be the judges if ya like.

    • Kidd;

      If you are not aware, if you click on the “reply” button, your comment will fall below the comment that you want to address.

      Like now, I clicked on the “reply” button, and my comment is now below yours. Had I not hit reply, it would have appeared to the far left. JDA

  29. To All Searchers

    From JoJo

    Subject: My Final Post/A Super Simple Method

    According to my solve and in my opinion: upon looking back at my solve
    and looking at a few of Forrest’s quotes, I have determined that
    according to my solve there is a super simple way to find the spot
    that the poem points you to.

    First off, you must asume that you only have three months left to solve this. It could be as much as six months depending on when the snow melts in the mountains this year. This melt off differs from year to year, sometimes it doesn’t melt uyntil August. This makes planning a search a logistical challenge.

    With so little time left, a searcher might need a quicker method than the one I employed to
    solve the Chase. So I was looking at my solve, which is complete. So complete in fact that in my opinion I am past the poem. Yes, there is one last thing to do that is past the poem according to my solve.

    Anyway, what you can do, that is simple and fast compared to the method I used is this:
    Consider that each “clue” is a location or an identifier of a location. This means that several lines in the poem can all refer to the same clue. For example:
    From there ….Meek
    the end…nigh
    they’ll …creek
    just…high

    All of these lines are ferring to the same location, in my solve, and therefore are all one clue, not four.

    When you look at the poem that way and starting at line 5, which is the first clue. According to my solve you get nine clues. I give you title to the gold is not a clue in my solve when looked at this way.

    Once you have WWWH’s (first clue), then you proceed from there using this method and it does take you to it. Now one thing you have to do that few are doing is using this method, you have to overlook certain phrases in the poem. What I mean is not to assume that they are more important than they are. For example, in the poem it says: “but tarry scant with marvel gaze”. Now this line is very important in more complex solves, but using the method I am talking about it literally only means ‘don’t wait around staring at it in awe’. That is not a location or something that clarifies a location, so it is not a clue.

    You may start in the mountains or in a valley. In any case, you can get from A to Z in 19 steps according to my solve. If you are very very wise, then you can do it in 9.

    All of this is according to my solve and in my opinion. I could be wrong. I offer this advise to anyone who is still struggling with the solve and might need a shot at a shortcut. By offering hints and clues about my solve online, no one can say that they didn’t have a fair shot at finding it before me. It’s like a movie where there is a swordfight and one guy looses his sword, but the other guy tosses it back to him so they can continue the fight instead of just going for the kill. I’m giving you all a chance before I go and get it this summer. No one therefore, will have any reason to attack me online when I get it. People probably will anyway knowing the internet.

    Good luck to everyone and I’ll see you this Summer!

        • Jo Jo,
          Would you be kind enough to state which state you are searching in, for example I’m searching in Wyoming. Thank You, Is HOB a fish, animal or vegetable?

          • Grapevine, I’m not giving away the state, but i will say that I am not searching in the upper half of Montana. HOB in my solve is not a fish and there are no fish there. Good luck.

          • Hi Grapevine,
            if you know who or what is Brown, this info alone will lead you to TC location (it’s not direct quote from Forrest and I know that JDA will immediately catch me on it). So, I understand the reason why JoJo doesn’t want to answer this question completely.
            His answer that “HOB in my solve is not a fish and there are no fish there” is a joke. Because home of Brown can’t a fish a priory. But Brown can be a fish.
            I wish JoJo a good luck in his 2020 search. Undoubtedly, this 2020 summer will be hot for all searchers (even in places where snow doesn’t melt until August). I also hope that my hoB is correct one and will never say even a word about who or what is my Brown. Same about search state. If Forrest give us more hints in new SBs or some “big surprise” it will be helpful for all searchers.

    • JoJo – I’ve said for a while now that there is the real possibility of there being a certain level of redundancy to the clues. Yes, we all know that there are a total of 9 clues, but nothing precludes those 9 clues, or, probably more correctly put, some of those 9 clues, from describing the same place/landmark/geographical feature. Reinforcing a particular spot by mentioning it more than once in the poem sure does seem like a good way to help a searcher to go with confidence.

      The counterargument for this redundancy of clues idea has always been that FF has never said anything about it one way (there is a redundancy) or the other (there is no redundancy), only that there are 9 clues, so either possibility can—and should—be considered as we try to solve the poem if we are truly being open minded about solve processes.

      Good luck in your search and stay safe (Now I sound like JDA—-just don’t tell him) 🙂

      • bowmarc,

        I agree with *some of those 9 clues, from describing the same place/landmark/geographical feature.*
        In this thought, a smaller area would be easily usable IF this is known or *thought of.*
        HLnWH could represent hoB and WWsH. The question would be; why tell us “JUST heavy loads and water high IF they are the same? I don’t see why it can’t be, but there needs to be a reason. { this relates to the observational solve idea }.

        This is why the idea of redundancy, meaning; no longer needed or useful, could kill a good solve imo. This is another reason the point to point method seems invalid because it allows a clue [the clue reference] to be considered only once… and once use… not used again… forcing a searcher to move away from ‘ingredients’ that we have been told are contiguous.
        Why is it sooo important we have to have WWsH or we don’t have anything? Why is it we need to nail down this clue, if it is at all possible, to nail down another clue depicted on a map?
        I mean, If hoB or NPFTM can be found on a map with a good guess… why do we need WWsH? Just follow the remaining clues… right?
        But apparently fenn doesn’t feel this is possible… looking for later clues is an expensive folly.
        There’s a reason he wanted WWsH to be the first clue… we need to understand why, and how it affect the rest of the poem’s clues.

        So I kinda disagree fenn never mentioning it one way or another [in respect to the above]… Its just may not stated by fenn to be as direct as some want it to be. LOL not unlike the years of debates on what is the first clue.

        • Seeker,
          Are you just trolling again, or are you serious? Your comments always appear to be argumentative rather than helpful. Since you have been around longer than many of us, surely you are aware of FF’s comments about so much of what you are asking.

          You said, “Why is it sooo important we have to have WWsH or we don’t have anything? Why is it we need to nail down this clue, if it is at all possible, to nail down another clue depicted on a map?
          I mean, If hoB or NPFTM can be found on a map with a good guess… why do we need WWsH? Just follow the remaining clues… right?”

          Really? You can’t figure this out?
          There are thousands of WWWH in the Rockies. You must find the correct one before you can proceed to the next clue. If you do not have the correct clue, then any other clues after that you might think are correct, are obviously not.

          Q. Mr. Forest, I was just wondering. If I can find the blase, why should I worry about where warm waters halt? All I need to do is look “quickly down” like the poem says, and there is the treasure, right? ~ Philadelphia Franklin
          A. That’s correct Philly, but that’s not a plausible scenario. If you can find a fish already on your hook you needn’t go fishing, right? Don’t force those kinds of aberrational thoughts on yourself or you’ll likely walk back to your car with a very light back pack. f
          (7/14/16)
          http://mysteriouswritings.com/forrests-surprise-words-find-the-blaze/

          • Lori you completely miss the points to my questions.. and I don’t troll, I swagger.

            But while you made your comment; answer this question… Folks have found and been at the first two clues. So if the clues can be found on a map… why can’t those who found the first clues see where the 5th or 7th clue is, and go from there?
            Is that not feasible to do in a point by point method?
            So if a later clue can be found… and this is a point to point method of stomping clues … there is no need for WWsH, no need to even know it exists. We could just as well start at hoB if we happen to be looking in the right area in the right location on GE.

            And this is my point… fenn wants the searcher to start with WWsH. The question is WHY? This is what I think is needed to be understood.
            Most simply want it to be a starting point… well, if true, we can do the same with any later correct clue. Something is missing in that idea that WWsH is just a staring point…

          • Seeker replied:
            answer this question… Folks have found and been at the first two clues. So if the clues can be found on a map… why can’t those who found the first clues see where the 5th or 7th clue is, and go from there? …

            Just because a clue can be found on a map, does not mean it is always recognized for what it is. FF’s comments regarding this make it clear that they found the first two clues, then walked right past the others. If you knew what a clue was, would you just walk by it? Obviously they did not recognize it for what it was,

            … Is that not feasible to do in a point by point method?
            So if a later clue can be found… and this is a point to point method of stomping clues … there is no need for WWsH, no need to even know it exists. We could just as well start at hoB if we happen to be looking in the right area in the right location on GE….

            As I stated before (and included a quote from FF), the need to start at THE correct WWWH is imperative for a correct solve. Why? Because the clues must be solved consecutively, in order and they are contiguous. Referring back to what FF has said, if you know [the correct] HoB, why worry about WWWH? Because in order to know the correct HoB, you must have solved WWWH to get that far.

            Can someone arbitrarily guess at HoB and get the correct one, yes. FF said it is possible to reverse-engineer WWWH from HoB. But looking for HoB first is not FF’s recommended method, and will likely fail. The problem is by guessing at HoB, you cannot know if it is correct until you go back to the beginning and find the correct WWWH. FF has admonished those who drive around looking for the blaze without first finding WWWH.

            So why is doing it FF’s way important? Why can’t we figure out a different way to solve the clues? To quote FF:

            “There are no shortcuts.”
            “It is the most direct route.”
            “There is no other way to my knowlege.”

            JMO
            -Lori

          • Lori,
            SB167

            – How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)

            FF: All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.

            If any later clues can be discovered from home, decoded in situ… a later clue can act as the first clue… in a point to point method.

            But there’s a problem; fenn also has said a psychical presence is needed after the first few clues.
            Feb 4, 2018 – It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve.
            MWs six questions

            You said; *Referring back to what FF has said, if you know [the correct] HoB, why worry about WWWH? Because in order to know the correct HoB, you must have solved WWWH to get that far.*

            He never said you *must go back to know if your correct*… the question about reverse engineering ask; could that be done?
            fenn answered with a question; [in part] …If you know hoB… why would you be concerned about WWsH…?

            Personally I thin the questioned posed by fenn is actually gining reference to the need of know WWsH and WHY it might be of importance… but he never said you Must.

          • Seeker, you said: “And this is my point… fenn wants the searcher to start with WWsH. The question is WHY? This is what I think is needed to be understood.
            Most simply want it to be a starting point… well, if true, we can do the same with any later correct clue. Something is missing in that idea that WWsH is just a staring point”

            If WWH is connected to and part of the overall solution of the poem, then having it is a starting point for a point to point solution makes sense to me. I do believe that all of the clues fit in a smaller area than most do. In short, I believe that all the clues are tied together by something, in a small area, and still point to point. In this scenario, yes WWH is very important because it defines the area to start the search.

        • Good points by Bowmarc.

          Part of Seeker’s reply-

          This is why the idea of redundancy, meaning; no longer needed or useful, could kill a good solve imo. This is another reason the point to point method seems invalid because it allows a clue [the clue reference] to be considered only once… and once use… not used again… forcing a searcher to move away from ‘ingredients’ that we have been told are contiguous.
          ——————————-
          It is easily explainable that seeker’s thought that the point to point method is invalid cause they only use clues once is not true.

          No such restriction exists.

          One could simply start at their wwwh. Then believe one should travel down the nearby canyon in their vehicle.

          The dirt road forks after the canyon. Which fork should they take? The one that correlates to “Put in below the hoB”.

          In this example, the hoB is the same geographical feature as their wwwh. They will just be traveling towards the other side of it at this juncture.

          Going back to Bowmarc’s point, this example goes a step further by suggesting that the first clue of wwwh is reinforced by the only word in the poem that is capitalized for a reason. So the first clue could be hidden by name in the poem.

          If I wanted one of the clues named in the poem it would be the all important first clue since if we don’t have that we have nothing.

        • Fundy ~*It is easily explainable that seeker’s thought that the point to point method is invalid cause they only use clues once is not true.*

          Your example is using many clues to create a location to move through… that is not the same as NOT using a clue [repeated] later on is the task. You still are only using a clue once in your scenario.

          • Allow me to clarify; a clue reference can be describe twice in the poem using difference terms to what is seen.
            WWsH could also be described as WH.

            It’s like looking at a door… from one view a door can seem to be 2″ wide with a knob sticking out both sides. In another view the door can look to be 36″ wide and a knob/handle only on one side.
            But are the not the same?

          • Seeker, isn’t that what I said?

            Didn’t I say their wwwh is the same as their hoB?

            I don’t get it.

          • Also Seeker, no we have not been told of the following as you said above…

            ”..forcing a searcher to move away from ‘ingredients’ that we have been told are contiguous.”

          • fundy you said: *In this example, the hoB is the same geographical feature as their wwwh. They will just be traveling towards the other side of it at this juncture.*

            That sounds like two or more clues can be of one feature. And I agree… I also gave an example of how two clues in different sections of the poem can also be of the same feature represented by two clues [a for single clue’s land feature]. Both clues talking about the same place.

          • Fundy,
            You said I said; *Also Seeker, no we have not been told of the following as you said above…* ”..forcing a searcher to move away from ‘ingredients’ that we have been told are contiguous.”

            In part, yes…

            What I said;
            This is why the idea of redundancy, meaning; no longer needed or useful, could kill a good solve imo. This is another reason the point to point method seems invalid because it allows a clue [the clue reference] to be considered only once… and once use… not used again… forcing a searcher to move away from ‘ingredients’ that we have been told are contiguous.

            If you leave out the context I was having in discussion with another… you can claim anything you want. Have we not been told the clues are contiguous???
            I don’t mind a good debate… but at least keep thing in context.

          • Seeker said-

            If you leave out the context I was having in discussion with another… you can claim anything you want. Have we not been told the clues are contiguous???
            I don’t mind a good debate… but at least keep thing in context.
            ——————-
            Yes, we have been told that the clues are contiguous. But, that’s not what I’m objecting to because that’s not what I quoted you about.

            I quoted you saying “ forcing a searcher to move away from ‘ingredients’ that we have been told are contiguous.”

            You are assuming the “ingredients” that f has spoken about are clues.

            I’m not assuming that. In fact, f has made it pretty clear that the “ingredients” he spoke of aren’t clues in the poem….

            Dear Forrest,

            You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

            a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and

            b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

            Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? Steve

            No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?

  30. JoJO ~ *Anyway, what you can do, that is simple and fast compared to the method I used is this:
    Consider that each “clue” is a location or an identifier of a location. This means that several lines in the poem can all refer to the same clue. For example:
    From there ….Meek
    the end…nigh
    they’ll …creek
    just…high
    All of these lines are ferring to the same location, in my solve, and therefore are all one clue, not four.*

    IF each clue is a location… and using this method [ which is not really explained ]. Doesn’t that mean stanza 3 has multiple clues for *one* location-?- and not *each clue is location or identifier of a location*?

    So, lets get back to the 19 step program for sec. It doesn’t matter to me how you count out anything… I’m personally more interested in what you do when on site. You say it doesn’t matter where you start; *You may start in the mountains or in a valley.*
    LOL, what does that mean?
    We’re told we need to go to WWsH, and without that clue, we have nothing. In your solve, is WWsh both in the mountains and valley?

    You said ” I’m giving you all a chance before I go and get it this summer. No one therefore, will have any reason to attack me online when I get it.”

    LOL I don’t know why you give a rats tail about that. IF you have the correct solve, why care.. what did you say; No one therefore, will have any reason to attack me online when I get it.”

    IF you can prove a find by a picture of the chest, no one will have any rights to attack you.. they lost, period. So why do you care?
    But personally; this doesn’t sound like a confident person who feels they figured it all out, but rather a smack in the head to everyone else about your egotesticle attitude; that you think you’re smarter then the rest and have a need to brag about the possibly before even testing your theory.

    • JoJo, you’re on! Haven’t tested my solve and therefore I’m certainly not going to say that my solve is 100% correct or better than anyone else’s. Or to say that my BOTG partners and I will win. But I am to the point where I am treading with confidence, which feels good.
      I do think I can see why perhaps you feel you will be attacked as your attitude in this post does seem egotistical (seeker I liked your term even better but chose not to use it), though perhaps your posts don’t reflect who you are in person.
      I’m wondering where you came up with 19 “steps” though. My solve takes 9 clues just as the poem said, some include multiple phrases from the poem but I disagree on your choices for the lines that form one clue. IMO there is nothing to do beyond clue #9 or “beyone the poem” as you say, you shouldl have the chest by then. . However, again just IMO, lLDYQTC is not #9, the last clue. IMO, The rest of the poem is extremely important. But good luck on your BOTG search and let’s all hope the snow doesn’t stick around until August!

      • librarylady, thanks for your response. My reasons for giving clues and being concerned about if I get attacked online and all of that boils down to my personal philosophy on life. It’s not that I care if people talk trash online so much, but someone once said on the internet that there might be lawsuits and stuff. I mean people get upset when their hopes are dashed. So no one can say anything because if they were paying attention to my posts, then they had a better chance than almost anyone else of getting it. So if I get sued, my question to the person suing me in court will be “Did you read my posts? No? Then what are you complaining about? I tried to tell you.”

        On the steps: I’m not saying anything more about that. The fact that I brought it up at all is enough of a clue to begin with. If I explained it to you, then it would cease to be a clue and instead it would become a giveaway.

        According to my solve there is something you must do after you get it. There is no way around this. Fenn knew that by the time you get to that point you would most likely have already figured that out. There is a final step that is after the poem. That in and of itself is a clue. And it’s a dang good one!

        Your response to my post is very nice and respectful and I appreciate that. If people spent as much energy looking at what I’ve said with an open mind as they have dissecting/attacking it then they would fare better.

        And I’m not talking about this post when I say that. Everyone here is being cool. But previously that has often been the case. I mean look at it this way: If the eventual finder thinks he knows he’s got it and it turns out he is right, why would anyone not want him/her to post some clues before they go to try to get it? Doesn’t make sense unless you don’t want to find it.

    • Seeker, Most people are considering one line to equal one clue. My point is that according to my solve all of stanza three, all four lines, are talking about the same location. When you consider one clue equal to one location, then according to my solve you do end up with nine clues.

      I’m not going to explain my clues to the point where they become giveaways.

      See me response to library lady below to get responses to the rest of your post.

      As for my ego and all of that:
      Would you not want the eventual finder to give some clues out before he/she goes to get it? If so, don’t read my posts. No one is forcing you to.

      If you want to assume that I post to get my ego off, then that is your right. Maybe you are wrong and maybe you are right. In any case, why do you care if I post for some ego gratification? Does that help you find the treasure one way or the other? Does it keep you from finding it? I’ve read tons of people’s theories on the internet about where they think it is and giving some clues and hints about their solve. I didn’t worry about their ego or motivation and I certainly didn’t bring it up to them on the blog. So the real question then, is why do you care about all of that? You don’t have to answer, it’s a rhetorical question. Anyway, thanks for your reply and good luck to you on the search.

  31. seeker wwwh – is on the east side at the bottom of the canyon – there you take it in,- or turn west leaving wwwh below hob – if hob is west and wwwh is east that would put wwwh below hob – there at hob you turn right or north where all the rest of the clues begin- there are no clues below wwwh and no clues above hob— frank

  32. seeker – from hob to the treasure chest is more then 500 ft I would try more like 20 miles apart – —- frank imo

    • I had to leave soon after I put in, due to more pressing matters, but when I get on a roll I will be hard to stop. As long as my brakes work, I’ll be able to stop within 20 miles.

  33. Let’s have some fun –
    Start your thinking process over (forget EVERYTHING you’ve considered before) and take a look at the poem. ONLY the poem.

    Step One – We know F said to “begin it where warm waters halt” ….
    so where IN THE POEM is there a reference to warm water (or such) and where does it halt?

    When y’all are satisfied, perhaps then we can move on to Step Two.
    I’m prob all wet but heck ain’t “it” worth a try?

    (This was originally posted on “The Blaze” page by mistake.)

    • wwwamericana – Here?:

      “As I have gone alone in there,
      And with my treasures bold”

      Makes a case for where the hot water meets the cold on the Firehole River at Ojo Caliente as being WWWH. Except, when I dipped my finger in that rivulet, flowing down that slope, this past Memorial Day Weekend of 2019, that water was HOT, not WARM.

      Which brings me back to Madison Junction and the Yellowstone Caldera Boundary. Where the thermal features end. And the Madison River is warm, not hot. And the fly fishing is World Class.

        • wwwamericana – When I see the named location in YNP, where the Firehole, Gibbon and Madison Rivers converge at a ‘junction’, I often think of the Oregon Short Line branch of the railraod into West Yellowstone, established by Harriman in 1908:

          https://www.yellowstonehistoriccenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/trains2.jpg

          Steam trains: another hint to WWWH being Madison Junction, where the named Madison River begins in YNP? When that train comes to a ‘halt’, the ‘warm waters’ evaporate or ‘halt’ in the air, don’t they?

          I read they are creating a bike path along that old train track bed, following the South Fork of the Madison River. I think Dal will enjoy that. But not in Winter. Unless they use it for cross country skiing then.

      • wwwamericana and Zap – Do a ‘find in page’ for the “dam-like breakover” below the famous Grasshopper Bank fly fishing run on the Madison River in YNP in this link:

        https://www.yellowstoneflyfishing.com/madison.htm

        Could that be WWWH?

        Craig Matthews wrote that info. in his book about the Madison River. He owned Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone for many years. He also released a later edition of Howard Back’s 1938 classic fly fishing book about the West Yellowstone area. That is one of Craig’s favorite books.

        Still hoping Dal might check Forrest’s library to see if he might have a first edition…

        • wwwamericana – Also do a ‘find in page’ for ‘calcium bicarbonates’ and ‘chalk streams’. Remember, I suggested this line?:

          Begin it where warm waters chalk…

          Is it specialized knowledge if you can Google ‘fly fishing in Yellowstone’ and have this webpage show up??

          • You amaze me Ms. Lisa!
            Who needs Google when we got you?

            Look up the definition of “specialized.”
            Didn’t F say we needed a plan to find his hatch- sounds pretty dang specialized to me
            Shut my mouth…..

          • wwwamericana – That ‘specialized knowledge’ quote from Jenny’s blog:

            A question: Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19 The answer: “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure. f”

            Could you please cite the quote with the words Forrest said about matching the hatch to find his?

          • wwwamericana – I think you are hearing me perfectly, Little Frog:

            A frog’s tympanic membrane, or tympanum, is the circular patch of skin directly behind its eye that we commonly call its eardrum. It functions much like our eardrum does –the tympanum transmits sound waves to the middle and inner ear, allowing a frog to hear both in the air and below water.

          • wwwamericana and Tom Terrific – But this pull out, shaped like a lasso, is in Montana, the Treasure State. That’s where I think Forrest ‘put in’ with his dinghy and camping gear, wearing waders, in the preface of the TFTW book:

            https://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=44.6535&lon=-111.0638&z=17

            I see your “lonesome shadow” ‘cast’ on the Madison River, here, Forrest.

            Reminder to Tom Terrific:

            “A River Runs Through It” is the correct spelling of that movie title. In that scrapbook, Forrest spelled it:

            “A River runs Through it”

            My “it” in the Poem is the ‘Madison River’, as you know. And “Shadowcasting”, written by the guides who chose filming locations and taught the actors how to fish in that movie, is a great book.

            All IMO.

  34. Above, Seeker wrote:

    “From there ….Meek
    the end…nigh
    they’ll …creek
    just…high
    All of these lines are ferring to the same location, in my solve, …”
    ——————————————————————–

    No, no, no.

    Your theory has the potential for clues to be “observed” >>> randomly.

    For example, searcher might see “just … high” first, then see “there’ll … creek” next, and then “from there … meek”, followed by “the end … nigh”.

    In other words, your theory postulates that from one location, the “observer” looks out onto the landscape and sees maybe clue 6 first, then clue 4, then clue 7, then clue 3. Another searcher might see clue 7 first, then see clue 3 before clue 4.

    That randomness in observation from a stationary point blatantly contradicts Forrest, who has said:

    “All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them IN ORDER …”

    “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight IN ORDER.”

    “The clues should be followed IN ORDER Curtis. There is no other way to my knowledge”.

    “Clues in CONSECUTIVE ORDER”. [dictionary definition of “consecutive” >>> “following one after the other IN ORDER; successive”].

    Forrest has made it abundantly clear that clues are to followed in order, with clue 1 identified first, clue 2 identified next, clue 3 later, followed by clue 4, and on and on until we get to clue 9.

    No matter how many searchers identify the nine clues, all of those searchers must see each clue in the order presented in the poem. There is no potential for randomness in identifying clues.

    Seeker, your “observational” theory is thus not valid. This chase is a point-to-point puzzle, no matter how strongly you object.

    Of course, knowing you, you will assert a long, rambling response that “tries” to twist Forrest’s comments into some torturous logic, to justify your theory. Or, you will get off on some tangent that doesn’t address the issue. But it won’t work. Forrest’s clear, simple comments supersede your convoluted theory.

    Except for Forrest’s quotes, the above POV is of course my opinion.

    (By the way Seeker, the word that begins line 11 is “There’ll”, not “they’ll”).

    Ken (in Texas)

    • In Seekers defense, he was quoting my post. LOL Sorry about the misspelling. And to your point in my solve you do see what all four of those lines refer to at the same time as they all refer to the same thing. But following the clues in order doesn’t mean that from the location of one clue you can not see another clue. I don’t see where your quotes from Forrest say that.

      In fact according to my solve, you can see HOB from WWWH’s. You don’t go there next, but you can physically see part of it.

      By the way, Dal if you read this: Sorry if my last two posts didn’t get approved. I don’t see them here. If I was outside the rules I’m sorry about that. I’m trying to color inside the lines but sometimes I slip up. I know moderating is a pain and I appreciate your nearly infinite patience.

      • Seeker, on this message board, you are notorious for poor writing. As in this case, you used an asterisk (*) instead of quotes, so the passage, as you wrote it, gives the impression that you were responding to JoJo.

        Despite your poor writing skills, my objection to your observational theory still stands, and for exactly the same reason that I wrote above.

        Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken ~ *Your theory has the potential for clues to be “observed” >>> randomly.*

      In my theory there are not 9 places to be observed. There are directional and instructional clues that need to be followed. In which case the clues need to be seen in their correct order. That is done by following the order of which the are present in the poem… no matter which one is seen first or second or third. *Randomly* following, no matter which is discovered first will not work in ANY method.

      You said: *Seeker, your “observational” theory is thus not valid. This chase is a point-to-point puzzle, no matter how strongly you object.*

      As in my comment above… the clues need to be in the correct order… however… you are forcing 9 clues to be all places or land features. I say many clues are instructional.
      And no matter how strongly you object, you don’t know if *This chase is a point-to-point puzzle* as you claim it must be. That method is being used by tens of thousands and has failed over and over.

      You state; *Of course, knowing you, you will assert a long, rambling response that “tries” to twist Forrest’s comments into some torturous logic, to justify your theory. Or, you will get off on some tangent that doesn’t address the issue. But it won’t work. Forrest’s clear, simple comments supersede your convoluted theory.*

      Sounds like your whining and complaining because you just don’t like the observational style because I can align many, most, things fenn has stated to give the method some footing.

      You added; *(By the way Seeker, the word that begins line 11 is “There’ll”, not “they’ll”).*

      Thanks for correcting this… but I really don’t give a rats tail about simple spelling errors or an idiot phone that have auto correct while having a simple discussion about all this … but you seem pretty bug about these simply errors.
      So, I apologize that they bug you so much.

      • Seeker, I agree with this : “There are directional and instructional clues”. In my solve this is true and it is also true that there are locations described. However, my “super simple” method that I posted about is different. The poem works both ways, one way is complex but way more specific, the other simple method is easier in that there is less work to do to get the clues, but it’s also harder in that it’s not so obvious if you are correct or not about that you think each clue means. That’s just according to my solve. I could be wrong. But I wanted to chime in and agree that yeah there definitely are directional and instructional clues. Without them in my complex method solve, it wouldn’t be solvable.

  35. Speaking of “…. a long rambling response …”. One comes to mind.
    I think it’s perfectly valid if “no place for the meek,” …nigh, no paddle, and water high are all descriptors of a single location pertaining to the same clue. They are in my solution as well. Keep truckin’ Seeker.

      • Ken, TX, not that we don’t trust FF, there are many solutions out there, and until someone finds the chest, they are all viable in my opinion. If you think outside the box you’d be surprised how well it fits. Not saying your solution isn’t unique, and I’m sure it fits well for what you are thinking. And who knows who’s right.

          • Lori, so true.

            I have sought for answers to clues all over the place. Making all comments made by Forrest fit at times. Not what is needed. To me after you find solves for poem clues you will see some of those comments that play in this chase. Those who say Forrest doesn’t give out hints in scrapbooks or interviews or book signings are mistaken imo. I for one smile at some things I’ve seen out there. Get back “in the box” is good advice.

            Good luck,
            Bur

          • Bur,
            I totally agree. One thing that I found very helpful is to actually do a write-up of my solve. It is my computer, so no one will see it yet. But write it as though you were going to publish it.

            Take each clue, describe what it means to you, how did you arrive at that description, list any references that support it. Include photos, maps, weblinks, etc. Keep your eye out for anything that refutes it and mark it for further examination.

            Then move on to the next clue.

            At first, I thought I had nothing to contradict my solve; it was perfect. But as I was writing things out, I encountered quotes from FF that seemed to contradict my reasoning. Upon re-examination I found further evidence to suggest that the person quoting FF was wrong, and FF himself made the correction when asked specifically about it.

            So now, I think I am back on solid ground. But I think this might be a helpful exercise for others to sort of test their theories for themselves before going out to search. I will never understand all the discussions involving anagrams and codes/ciphers. To me, that is all just a bunch of noise.

            -Lori

  36. The treads are getting to long to comment where I want to above.

    To the discussion on some of the comments above about what can be be seen as far as poem clues on a map, or a satilitte view map, and the distances of clues one thru nine, either from the beginning to end or between each one.

    We all have different opinions on these base on current solves or maybe even past adventures.
    I for one have had a few adventures and as far as this discussion those answers have been all over the place. So my answers to these questions now will refer to my “back in the box” solve using the poem with my straight forward findings for the poems 9 or at least 8 of the clues solves, that I have right now.

    Wwwh – the one that needs to be “nailed down”. My findings are that “what wwwh is” and “exactly where it is located” cannot be seen from a satellite view map, but it’s general location can, and this location has a name on my satellite map.
    (On a side note there are two hints and one way out there, that you will see in the TTOTC book that helps you understand your at the right wwwh location, most likely after you solve it.)

    take “it” in the canyon down – for me “it” is a trail or path. It can be seen from a satellite view map starting near the general area of wwwh. This trail has a name and goes on for quite a distance.

    Now “nfbtftw” is the distance one travels to get to the “put in” spot which I estimate is appr. 1.4 plus miles from where Forrest must have parked – (trail is not a straight line so you cannot see this spot from wwwh).
    To me this “put in” spot is where the first two clue solvers went by the other clue solves, and this is also the 500’ distance spot to the chest.

    Put in “below” the home of Brown – I want to say hoB is a place that is “considered” a home of Brown, but not truly a home as most would consider a home, as like a house where Brown lives or lived. Now the hoB can be seen from wwwh if looking high above it’s location. This place does not have the name home of Brown, but it’s location does have a name. From this home you cannot see in a line of sight the “put in” spot because the “it” trail (which I will call the main trail) curves around the mountains. Now the “put in” spot and this reference “ below” is just referencing this spot’s elevation to hoB elevation. So hoB is not directly above the put in spot.

    npftm- at the “put in” spot, it is a off beaten trail on the left side of the main trail and it curves around to the left (end is ever drawing nigh) up and into the mountain. This is not a trail most people would ever take, hence – npftm.

    npuyc- as you travel up this off beaten trail about 100’ into the mountain, out of sight from the main trail, on the right side – is a creek. The creek and the trail run along side each other going up this trail. The creek has a name on a map.

    Heavy loads- what are most searchers thinking that heavy loads are- boulders? Power lines? Lots of water? What I found on this trail into this area was a surprise, but it fit the answer to this clue 100%. This solve was about 200’ up this trail. Does it have a name or can it be seen on a map? Not one I have come across until this past year, then tree canopy cleared some and you can barely see it on a satellite map This is one clue solve that made me smile when I seen it and made me think Forrest you are a clever guy. You need botg to solve this clue solve.
    &
    water high – another solve that the answer fits the clue perfectly but not what most consider. If you continue up the trail from heavy loads it snakes up to water high about 300’ up. There is no name for this but you can see it if you zoom in on a satellite view map. If you haven’t seen water high in person you might not understand it to be that on that map.

    Now the “been wise and found the blaze – Look quickly down” I got nothing for this right now. Can it be seen from a satellite view map, don’t know? There are a few things that stand out in the general area on the map and most likely more somewhere on this quest up the trail that are yet to be searched below.
    Time is always searcher worst enemy, one I have yet to have.

    I’m thinking that where npuyc creek- where you first see it, or heavy loads could possibly be the 200’ mark that Forrest has referred too.

    There are a few places on down the main trail that a searcher could consider poem clue solves, past my put in spot. Most likely those place are where those two clue solved searchers adventures took them.

    Ok now, guess that’s the best I can do on details. Does it follow your train of thought on how this chase plays out? maybe not. Only if you could see all this through my eyes then you just might understand why Forrest was smiling walking back to his car.

    By the way is there another way you can travel out to water high from wwwh area? Sure, ride a bike, but you’re going to push it from the “put in” spot.

    Good luck all,
    Bur

    • Wow, Bur this is a great write-up! Love reading well-thought out solves like this. I’ve read your posts with much interest over the last 6 months or so and enjoy hearing your thoughts even though I don’t think we’re in the same state, though not sure if you’ve revealed current state. Anyway, much luck and thank you for sharing!

      • Surfthesky,
        We most likely are in different areas, but if your ideas are close to mine then you might be following my train of thought.

        Good luck,
        Bur

        • Bur, We have very similar solves except you are much closer to WWWH than I, perhaps you are using a different WWWH than I… Non the less a great write up.

    • A GREAT post Bur. Sure sounds like my area. Your post made me rethink my Heavy Loads and Water high spots. In my area, your thoughts just might work.

      Always great reading your posts – they make me think a bit.- Happy Journeys – JDA

        • Maybe not always in the RIGHT direction, but I hope the CORRECT direction – haha – 🙂 Ever forward, and then a bit to the right – 🙂 JDA

    • Bur ~*My findings are that “what wwwh is” and “exactly where it is located” cannot be seen from a satellite view map, but it’s general location can, and this location has a name on my satellite map.*

      While this comment is a good point to point explanation of your location… the question I have is; What brought you to this location in the first place? Meaning did you start with a state, a version of what WWsH might be, a story from the book {ex. L&C}…???
      I’m interested because you said WWsH can be seen from GE but the location is named… what got you there if you can’t see WWsH?

      This is unrelated to your comment /post but it needs asking;
      Are all the WWsH north of SF and some south of… all the same descriptor-?- or just a general statement that there are different type of possibilities that can be described as warm waters halt? { ya’ll heard some; merging rivers, a lake, waterfall, hot to cold etc. }

      If you will, Bur, would you tell what your WWsH happens to be?

      • Correction ~ you said; WWsH “cannot” be seen from GE.

        I guess my spell checker didn’t like cant because I left out the ‘.

        • Good questions Seeker – Coincidentally Bur’s description of WWWH is very similar to mine as I have written somewhere else. I didn’t realize it was WWWH when I saw it on GE, it wasn’t until I saw a more in depth map that I saw what was happening. And while there isn’t an exact point, there is a named place on map that indicates the general starting point. I have not seen this place named on any blog, though the general area has been searched (maybe this explains 200 foot searchers).

          I don’t know what state Bur is currently in but a few things make me think we’re talking about a different spot. I only just started reading TTOTC and I’m seeing more than a few hints confirming this spot IMO.

          Also, Bur’s description of canyon down doesn’t fit more current line of thinking. But I could be wrong.

          I am in this area after discovering what I believe is the word that is key. And , whether that word is correct or not, I think it will be very hard to unsee it. I’ve only seen it mentioned once or twice on the blogs. It really narrows down what WWWH could possibly be in my opinion. Only found it two weeks ago so my solve is still evolving as a result.

          • Surfthesky,

            The word that is key that i’ve come across is in TTOTC book and yes it can help with wwwh imo.

            Bur

      • Seeker, I don’t mind your questions.
        Where I’m at now kind of started from my last solve.

        Now understand the poem clues are what I concentrated on for this area.
        I was searching sort of the same thing for another area for wwwh clue solve but after two things that happen there I realized I was at the wrong wwwh.

        One morning on the old search I stopped by a local coffee shop that had WiFi and I started searching for other wwwh’s along with my theme that I have had in my mind since almost the beginning of the chase. I did find there was another that also fit this theme but my time had run out and the drive was far.
        So now with one night left to stay before heading back home I went to this small town local eatery – brewing company for food and drink. I was talking to some locals about the chase when I named Forrest Fenn. A lady ( older school teacher) and her husband over the next couple tables overheard his name and said out load to me she knows him. I ask her if I could join them. They said ok. I first ask how she knew Forrest and she said from his art gallery in Santa Fe many years back. So I started talking about the chase, which she did not know anything about, but was curious to know about. We talked more about Forrest and I ask when was the last she had seen him. She said the last she had seen him was when she lived in ………… and that she had moved to this area about a couple years ago. I pressed her about the timeline when she seen him and to make a long story short it just happen to be close to the summer 2010. Boom, I said to myself that puts Forrest in the area of my now search area I just research in that coffee shop this morning. We talked more but not getting to all that.

        My research started when I got home about this new search area and things started to fall in place especially the first clue solve wwwh.

        Yes Seeker, there are many wwwh in the Rockies above and below Santa Fe if you know what you’re looking for. Of course fining the correct one is the challenge. I just happen to be at the right place at the right times to discover mine. Is it correct? – well that’s to be determined, but the clues solves fit, and it’s a place that that Texas redneck can take his pickup load of kids and enjoy the whole adventure.

        Thanks for asking,
        Bur

        • Bur,

          Interesting you have someone to put fenn near a place in the summer of 2010.
          There have been other discussions about WY at the same time, in Cody. If he drove there, and thinking he may have taken some side trips… lol all for states are still up for grab.
          My concern is; is there something that is mentioned in the poem or book that can indicate either a place [doesn’t matter when it was mentioned, as a kid or adult] or something he would hold in high regards, line of thinking.

          Anyways… it seems to be all about the location, location, location first and foremost. WWsH is secondary and seemingly only for the connection of the clues themselves.

          • Seeker,

            This place has not been mention at anytime by Forrest that I have come across. The person that most likely knows this place is no longer with us according to Forrest, and I just might know who that person was.

            Bur

          • Hello Bur. Would you be so kind to point me in the right direction of where he said this, please? I somehow don’t recall this.

          • Hello Bur. “Two can keep a secret if one is dead”? Many of the scrapbooks which Mr. Fenn spoke of people have passed. 🙂

        • Hi Bur, there is a video of ff from not many yrs/months before the chase, where he says he went to board meetings at least twice a year in Cody Wy. I believe he mentioned driving this distance for most of them. and June is the time of at least one of the meetings every year… (Cody not being that far from Montana)

          that would put him in every state every year at least twice, specifically at least once in the summer of every year (in that time) in all 4 states. (if for instance he took a very short side trip to montana, which could not be ruled out from Cody or Yellowstone, Yellowstone he also implied he would visit during these times)

          so talking to someone that saw him in 2010 would only help to confirm that he has been doing lots of trips to all four states in that time.

          • Hi Writis: to further muddy the waters, Forrest still had his pilot’s license in 2010 (even if he no longer owned a plane).

          • Fenn’s FAA Medical was renewed in August, 2001. It lasts for 2 years for pilots over the age of 40. This means that his license was valid until August, 2003. See Fenn’s pilot’s license data from the FAA attached. You can check this for yourself at https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/Main.aspx. (Forrest Burke Fenn)

            *(credit GuyFromDenver @ Harry’s for the above – https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/chase/lurkermike-s-forrest-fenn-timeline-t2611-s15.html?sid=c8866b166714ae31507f58677d15d34a#p45439 )

            Also see: https://dalneitzel.com/2013/02/23/scrapbook-thirteen/#comment-1802

          • In the video linked above, the site claims;
            **August, 2003 is 15 years from the time that he got cancer in 1988. This is the year when Fenn said that he hid the chest. See t approx = 11:29, Moby Dickens Bookshop interview, November 2, 2013.**

            The wording in this bugs me.
            It sounds like 2003 is being told of the year fenn physically hide the chest, Or it could be relaying this is the first time fenn has *stated* he hid the chest [ with two trips involved ]. In that it would be wrong… that was mentioned in the book in 2010 when it was released.

            The reason for bring this up… if folks are attempting to be accurate… fenn states in the book ~ at age almost – eighty… it was time to act, and has repeated several times [in later years], he was 79 or 80 when he hide the chest.

            It’s not rocket science folks… imo.

          • Hi Loco: and yet:
            FF: “Jamie, I’m not attached to shoes but I like my leather wallet, which has taken on a nice wear-polish over the years. I keep it in my back left pocket and wouldn’t even think of carrying it anywhere else. It’s just kind of bent a little to fit the curvature. Nothing special inside, just a couple of credit cards, drivers and pilot’s licenses, military ID and health stuff. And a few bucks, not many.

            “In my back right pocket is a handkerchief and comb. Front left, Chap Stick, extra batteries for my hearing aids, and coins. My front right pocket contains my car keys and small pepper spray. Whoever rolls me won’t get much. f”

            Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/forrest-fenns-pockets/

            I suppose it’s conceivable that Forrest might carry an expired pilot’s license in his wallet out of habit or nostalgia.

          • Zap,
            He carries his military ID as well [left the military in 1950]… I carry my out of state [another state] pistol permit [even though not valid in the state I live in, to carry, but still involved multiple law agency background checks and training] because it is still another form of legal ID… finger print and my pretty mug shot.
            I know Police officers who carry their “retired” badges… helpful on the highways in some cases
            A pilot license would be a nice piece of legal information when traveling… especially out of the country, along with a passport. LOL it’s not issued by your local DMV…right?

          • Just to clear things up, a Pilots license never expires… once you are a pilot you are a pilot for life. (with some caveats)

            a medical (which is necessary to fly) does expire, and expires often.. but if ff felt like it, he could go get a medical, and if he passes that, he could be flying the next day…

            (another thing is that one needs to be “checked out” in the airplane he/she is about to fly). both day and night (if planning on night flight)… and be “rated” for the type of airplane, 1 engine, multi engine.

            so having a pilots license in one’s wallet is normal and expected. having a medical in the wallet would also be there if going to fly.

      • If I thought that warm waters halt at a waterfall, I wouldn’t know where
        to begin my search path. Maybe Angel Falls in Venezuela? Does this
        name have something to do with being “spiritual”?

        BTW, There’s a Santa Fe south of Angel Falls.

        As always, IMO.

        • Tall Andrew,

          It’s original name is a big hint to what wwwh is. Name changed so now not so much.

          Only way I see to get to wwwh location without guessing the right one is to find those hints in the TTOTC books and follow them until they finally come to a end showing it’s location imo.

          Bur

      • Thanks pdenver,

        As you see I tried to explain wwwh. I did not say it is covered and this is why you can’t see it in a satellite view. Forrest did mention in a scrapbook “what it is” but in another location when talking about someone.

        Thanks for your comment,
        Bur

          • May I add, you have me wondering which of the scrapbooks since there are many whom he talks about someone. I’ll keep thinking. 🙂

          • Thank you, pdenver.

            It’s hard for me to imagine a place where warm waters halt, that doesn’t have water. If Bur can imagine such a place, then Bur has more imagination than I do. And I think I have a lot of it. As always, IMO.

          • Hello Tall Andrew. While reading Bur’s posts, my understanding is that they know “what” Wwwh is, but that it does have water when I asked. I’ve wondered what they meant when the posted (paraphrased) “what Wwwh is,” especially the “what,” and my mind can only grasp the thought that it’s a basin, but I could certainly be wrong. I’m glad you have a lot of imagination. Sometimes I think mine may be way out there.

    • Bur, thank you for this!

      I, too, appreciate a good write-up like this. The details of your solve are not as important to me as your process of deciphering them. Your process sounds like it is very similar to my own, but I can tell we are in different areas.

      In my own method, I found myself repeatedly being brought back to the same areas that have already been searched by hundreds before me. This was quite frustrating considering the area has already been thoroughly searched, so my solve must be wrong, right? Not necessarily. It is a huge area, but more importantly, as I just continued the process and let the clues lead me, (as opposed to forcing locations to fit the clues), I discovered what I believe to be their errors.

      So this summer, I will likely be searching in the same area where many well-known searchers will be, my approach will be a bit different and we won’t be tripping over each other.

      Thanks again for sharing this!

      -Lori

      • Lori,

        I know my starting area was searched too by a couple searchers because in the beginning of the chase I found a couple searchers solves on blogs. They mentioned they sent them to Forrest, but at my put in spot they kept going on down the main trail to other places. Their finish solves were farther on down the main trail. They kind of made sense to poem clue solves but to me they were to far for a 69-70 year old to go and to difficult to achieve. There has been one other searcher since in the last 6 years that mention on a blog the starting area but again he had a really off the wall solutions for his final outcome. So guess I’m what saying is just because another searcher has challenge your area of thought that it doesn’t mean your solutions are wrong as long as they are not the same past “canyon down”. Insert smile.

        Again good luck, and I like you ideas.
        Bur

        • Boy two issues I see. Writing and thinking to fast. Sorry.
          “Your” need to be inserted and “your” not you at the end, oh well.

          • I believe FF said something about why does it matter what word you use as long as your reader understands what you mean. (paraphrased, of course). LOL

            Good luck, Bur
            -Lori

  37. near an dear to him- is a big clue and so is the pic of the rooster , is also a very large clue. the picture of him sitting down, with a pottery pot with a pic of a dear is another – there are more but these are just some of them imo

  38. I definitely ran in circles last search season. Didn’t even know about search seasons until Halloween. This year I’m gonna try something different and follow the clues in order, so I just wrote numbers next to the clues and will bring the book. Then I’ll know I’m in the right order and direction. Especially since wwh is first clue. Although I think it might be last too, since was waters would be an ok place to check out treasure box, granted I didn’t drop any treasure.

    • Brian, u said something very profound that no one else has mentioned. Hence the Quote from Forrest,.
      “We shall not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.”

      You start at Warm Waters and end at Warm Waters, not the same Warm Waters but technically the same,. Get it….

      Keep that in mind, all in my opinion.

  39. to be 200 or 500 ft. they would of been at the end of the chase – two clues that have been solved at the beginning imo will not get you that close.

  40. So Forrest wants to take it with him… He wants to go together with his treasure… But if someone finds his treasure how can he still be together with it? Thoughts?

    • Spallies,

      LOL tons of thoughts… but we kinda know the story, right?
      The family talked him into trying the medical side vs. suicide.
      He recovered, and later put the original idea in play minus his body. He did say a couple time if he had another illness he would go back… luckily he remains healthy decades later. But he left a piece of him in the chest [ the bracelet ].
      He left the treasure and now its out of his hands…

      I could go on.. but i’m sure you know the full story. But I am curious to why you ask… seeing you know the story?
      What are your thoughts?

      • Hey Seeker, Yeah I’m aware of how Forrest ruined the story but just got to thinking about all the times he mentions his discussion with Ralph Lauren about taking it with him. He seems to have put this out in his interviews a lot in the beginning. There is a lot of different versions of it if it you search “Take it with you” on Tarry Scant. So how was it that Forrest after thinking about it decided he could take his treasures with him if he had passed? How would one hide a treasure chest and guarantee when they passed on from cancer they could take them with him? How exactly would this work???? Knowing Forrest he found a way just curious what ways he might have come up with for options….
        “When about that time one of my clinets was over. Raplh Lauren. He came in – was in my house and I had some things. One of which he wanted. and I said. “I just really don’t want to sell that.” And he said, “Well you have so many, you can’t take it with you.” And I said, “Then I’m not going.” And I said that without even thinking, but I did start thinking about it and that lead to different ideas and I said, “You know, if I’ve got to go, why don’t I take it with me.” thats what this treasure chest is all about.” Collected Works 2.26.2011

        “I just said if I’ve got to go. I’m going to take it with me.” Report from Sante Fe Loren Mills 3rd visit.

        Once he was in my home looking at my Indian bonnet collection, and he wanted my favorite, a particularly nice Crow hat covered with white ermine skins and carved antelope horns. I told him it wasn’t for sale. He said, “You have so many, and you can’t take them with you.” So I said, “Then I’m not going.” He just laughed. (Loren Mills Second Visit) Mobey Dickens Book signing 11.2.2013 he says Sioux Indian Bonnet.

        Just rabbit holing on a snowing weekend or is this an Ermine hole?

        • If I can jump in here, perhaps he meant because his intent initially was to die where he intended to hide the treasure? But then he got well and ruined the story and had to adjust the poem.

        • Hello Spallies. I concur with Bowmarc. Mr. Fenn was to bring the treasure chest with him to his “special spot” and take the sleeping pills. Thank goodness he got well.

        • What’s funny is that this whole conversation has nothing to do with solving the clues, Forrest must get a kick out of these endless rabbit holes and What Ifs. It doesn’t matter what he intentionally was going to do, your speculating. If you knew his original intentions would it help you with the current 9 clues, the Answer is NO… All in my opinion your honor! What’s important is that you put clean underwear on every morning because you don’t want to run into Old Biddies 🙂

          • I’d be very surprised if I learned that Forrest gets a kick out
            of these endless rabbit holes. I suspect he’s quite tired of
            most of the stuff he sees posted lately on these blogs about
            his treasure hunt. As always, IMO.

            But maybe (if he reads this) he can at least be occasionally
            amused. Here’s a true story:

            I once knew a guy whose last name was Kegel. For the
            purpose of telling the story, I’ll change his first name, which really isn’t of much consequence. Let’s call him
            John Kegel. I used to see him about once a year.
            The last time I saw him, I said “Hi, John . . . Grafenberg, is it?”
            It made him laugh.

          • Well Gee Tall Andrew… I guess you are spot on in your analysis IMO Yes, we are all free to exercise our opinion. You go girl…

    • Spallies… I have always thought about Fenn’s entire motivation behind this *creation* of his. Sometimes I picture a simple act of defiance against the mainstream… and sometimes this blends with the totality of everyone that has become involved and becomes a much more significant set of circumstances. It’s fun to see it all unfold. He’s in that box of baubles through and through…

    • Spallies;

      Let’s say Indulgence is found, and donated to the Smithsonian. Indulgence is put on display, along with the olive jar with the two hairs – a “living” part of Forrest. Aren’t the two together – A “Living” part of Forrest and Indulgence?

      Seems that way to me. Just a thought – JDA

      • Do we know for shore that F put hairs in that lil jar?
        He said his autobio and that it was tiny (20,000 words) and we needed a magnifying glass to read it.
        But where hairs?

        • Question posted 6/26/2014:

          You have mentioned sealing a bottle that is included in the chest with wax. What was your reason for doing this? Were you concerned merely for damp conditions or is the Chest hidden in water? ~ Izcajun

          Thanks for the questions Izcajun.

          When I was ready to put the olive jar that contained my autobiography and two of my hairs in the treasure chest I studied the lid. It was made of tin coated steel, which is not easily oxidized in air or water. Over time those characteristics can break down.

          Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water, I certainly didn’t want moisture to enter the jar. So I melted a chunk of microcrystalline wax to the point that it started smoking, which meant it was at its thinnest viscosity. Then I dipped the jar in the molten wax deep enough to cover the lid and part of the jar, and held it there for several seconds. I wanted the wax to seal the threads on both the lid and the jar, but I didn’t want the heat to break the glass. After it cooled for a minute or so and the wax hardened, I repeated the process two times, increasing the wax thickness on the lid. The wax was petroleum based and won’t evaporate or deteriorate. When cold, it becomes brittle. That’s why I wanted the threads on the lid and jar clogged.

          All I know are the facts, if you want the truth go next door to the psychology department.f

  41. Forrest may very well take it with him to the grave someday to join the likes of Bill Cody and similar company. The treasure chest and many artifacts in the Fenn books will be there too for all to see. You can bet your Smithsonian on that, IMO.

  42. @Ann – I started a new thread as it was getting too long above, and you and I have moved beyond what anyone cared to respond to, so we have a clean slate here. 🙂

    Yes, we are all capable of sharing. The reluctance part is because some of our ideas are the result of the scars we have earned navigating through the trenches of FF’s battlefield of a poem to try and claim victory, some for the honor of knowing they can solve/accomplish TTOTC, some for the wealth the chest will bring them, and some for both of those reasons. Why would or should I or anyone else simply give our competitors all the information we have earned so that they could possibly become the victor as a result? I don’t know you, but here’s a small fortune…LOL

    I’m not talking about a counterargument you weren’t going to make based off of one I assumed you might make but didn’t—I think that explains how that went. LOL. (THUMP—-there goes Mr. P getting dropped on his head again…LOL.) I’m talking about your very first response to my premise where you said “I am not an FF quote expert but I am aware of a potential retort to theory of Brown you describe above. But, I must say, if not for the FF quote (which I will get to) I thoroughly like the idea you have described so well. I had made a similar consideration early on and it certainly remains an open possibility. Which is why I have to ask, how do we wrestle FF;s response to being asked who Brown is when he said something to the effect that if he told us that we would go straight to the chest.” That right there was use of an ATF to make an argument which you later admonish me for doing. According to your verbatim quoted words above, your only hangup with this Brown = chest premise was that ATF, so let’s throw away all the ATF’s and see where that leaves us. Looks like we are both on the same page that this premise is plausible. I’m a lot further along in understanding why the premise is plausible than you are, but have shared what I can give you (and anyone else who reads this) as an opportunity to think along these lines when viewing the poem to see what else shakes out from this interpretation of how to start reading the poem and solving it.

    Yes, isolating the 9 clues is imperative to solving the poem. WWWH is the first clue according to an ATF by FF, but again, if we cannot interpret and use his ATF’s, forget that such is true. Rather hard to “unthink” that knowledge, though, isn’t it? The same is true with the Brown = chest premise and I have challenged others before to produce seemingly contradictory ATF’s, apply the Brown = chest knowledge to those ATF’s, and see if they can make those ATF’s simultaneously valid as, again, I believe FF tells the truth when he is talks about TTOTC. I’ve balanced every ATF I can find in an attempt to discredit my own premise. Confirmation bias is often the rally cry against something we don’t fully understand, but I do feel that I am my own worst critic most of the time, and I stopped spoon feeding a long time ago out of necessity.

    I’m not the only person who feels that FF is a wordsmith. I’d provide more ATF’s which seem to support such a title, but apparently you are the only one who can use them in this debate. And if you are going to use them, please identify them and use them properly. Your attempted usage to this ATF by FF— “I think kids have an advantage (finding the treasure). Don’t ask me to explain that.” by saying “I will only say that if you are right, then it is likely the poem is not so easy a child could do it” is a gross misunderstanding and misuse of the ATF—-There is even an ATF that supports that statement by me, but…

    There really is no other way to put a nail in this wordsmith debate other than use a few of FF’s ATF’s, so please allow me to do so now:

    “So it was 15 years from the time that I got cancer until the time that I hid the treasure chest. 15 years. And…The poem in my book, is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you I worked on that thing…I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

    “I wrote the poem in my book because I needed an avenue where I could present clues and start searchers on the chase. I worked on it for a long time and am pleased that it did its job so well.”

    “There are few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues.”

    “For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, ‘Imagination is more important than knowlege.’ If I had spelled that word correctly it would not have the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful. Also, when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need. Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word ‘several.’ Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.”

    If those words don’t make you at least pause to reconsider your position, I don’t know what will.

    Like anything anyone posts on here, you can choose to use all, some, or none of the information presented as you paint your own picture. I can be every bit of a smarta$$ as the next person, so my painting would have been of the whole room! Ironically, such would be inclusive of the bowl of fruit, which, in the duality of your art class lesson, has its own “special place” in the overall picture! 

    IMO

    • Bowmarc: ” FF;s response to being asked who Brown is when he said something to the effect that if he told us that we would go straight to the chest.”

      I believe ff’s response could be applied to any of the clues though, imo if someone asked where such and such answer is, he would respond in same manner.

      he has said as much, when he says: “decipher what they say [clues] and go right straight to the treasure chest” and: “The poem will take you to the treasure” and: “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”

      quotes can be found with Tarry Scant, along with many similar ideas about how he responds to such questions.

      • Writis – I am not sure what you are pointing out here. The quote you use in your opening line was a verbatim quote of what Ann was telling me, not what FF actually said.

        I’ve presented my interpretation of the actual FF quote further above with an explanation of why I interpret it the way I do.

        I’ve used the website, and even clued Ann in (pun intended…lol) about its existence.

        If you are pointing out that FF answers questions in a manner that seemingly raise more questions than they answer, I’ve covered that above as well. I’ll add that he carefully crafts his answers and finding that other 20% of the truth he may not have included in them is part of TTOTC, at least for me.

    • Bowmarc,

      Hahahahahaha! I like how you create imaginary arguments! I won’t even entertain your perception that I used any ATFs to argue anything! I will permit your delusions to delude you. I wasn’t even aware there was an ATF regarding children! Delude on!

      We clearly have different ideas of what a Word Smith is and I will leave that at that. Let me know when you have the Brown chest, that way you can elaborate more completely. And the “sharing” debate you feel is still going has been dead long before you started the new thread. I’d suggest stopping while you are ahead but you are so far behind I feel I should encourage you to catch up instead! Keep trying to put words in my mouth and you will find yourself talking to yourself. 🙂 Our posts here are like the paintings, don’t assume you know what is on my canvas. And you should let others determine whether you can be a smarta$$, as opposed to a dumba$$. 🙂 As if a painting of the whole room was a novel idea. (Or painting the whole room for that matter. Or any other possible interpretation and outcome.) The different perspective and respective outcome is precisely what the illustrative example is all about. Another one would be from Dead Poets Society, and if you know the movie you know what I am talking about. Enjoy the Chase, or at least the thrill of it,

      All IMO.

      -Ann

      • @Ann – Feigning ignorance of ATF use is unbecoming of you. In case you aren’t familiar with what ATF stands for, it’s not Ann’s Typed Fancies, it’s After The Fact as a catchall phrase for TTOTC related information such as FF quotes, interviews, videos etc. that came about after the release of The Thrill of the Chase book which contains the poem. With that said, you have absolutely been using such in your online verbal transactions with me—-A FF quote was the initial retort that you had for this whole Brown = the chest conversation. As to the reference to kids/children, I see no other reason why you would have brought such into the fold of the conversation if you actually had no idea that their was ATF material regarding same because I see no other references/allusions to children in anything we brought up prior to your posit that basically boils down to a simple child must be able to solve this simple poem created by a simple man. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, though, but strongly suggest that you read all the ATF’s I’ve already provided so that when you claim to not be an expert in FF quotes/ATF’s, and then use such in your arguments in some manner anyways, you’ll have a larger pool to draw from (just be careful not to drown in it).

        If I’m behind you in the chase, it’s because I’m about to lap you.

        Talking to myself sounds like a very intelligent conversation indeed.

        I have a VHS copy of that great movie somewhere, so I’ll toss out the conformity/“Exercising the right not to walk” scene as the answer to your riddle.

        Enjoy your pursuit of TTOTC as well.

        IMO

        • Bowmarc,

          My previous reply to here was apparently not post worthy. That is unfortunate. Guess you’ll just have to wonder what I originally wanted to say. Good luck and good day to you. All IMO.

          -Ann

  43. Hi MM,
    I think Ken recently posted quite a few quotes that indicate that the clues are contiguous and must be solved in order, beginning with WWWH. He has also said many times to “marry [the clues] to a place on a map”. That indicates to me that it is a point-to-point solution, and each clue moves you closer to the final clue where you can collect the prize.
    Hope this helps.
    Good luck.

    -Lori

    • Thanks Lori. Maybe I should be more specific. What if you put in (or take out) below the home of Brown and then you need to walk back up river to reach the location where the treasure is located? In this example you would have been physically closer to the treasure before you reached the take-out spot.

  44. I follow this blog on occasion and appreciate all u guys comments and Dal thank u for ur patience.
    Was there a reference to intersecting points, or x Mark’s the spot or something to that nature or both mentioned by Mr F? Unfortunately now that several years have passed the overload of information, conjecture and fact are hard to decipher.
    Am taking grandson this year to search, but may make a preliminary trip to see if the logistics will work. Hoping I am well enough to go.

  45. In light of SCrapbook 167, the last lines of that interview ff teased this idea: “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”
    SCBook 167 tells a tale of the tape IMO, can hunters really get to the treasure location with just a good map, the poem, and a decent knowledge of words?

    FF: I wrote the book for everyone who feels a sense of wanderlust. In your last question if you change the last word to geography, my answer would be yes.

    https://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/25/scrapbook-one-hundred-sixty-six-2/

    What If the place “Where Warm Waters Halt” was not only metaphorically halfway there, what if it was “Geographically Half of the physical location as well? Makes the TS Elliot Quote come into focus, consider this idea for a moment, half of our geographic metaphor and imaginary border is WWWH and the other half are the other 8 clues? Lets say that the border was a river which seperates two geographical areas, like old Mexico and Texas, so if Mexico was WWWH then each area divided are geographically half and metaphorically divided, but the next clue was where the Pecos River runs into that border, if all the other clues were toughing that border, the other half we already know is Mexico…a second clue but half geographically was solved with WWWH.
    Imagine if our clues were not only contigous with WWWH and geographically touching, but seperated by water/border then page 9 of the Thrill Book seems a lot more likely that a big clue hint lurks in the recesses there, can you find them here:
    Synonyms of the word contiguous:
    having a border in common
    (Connecticut and Massachusetts are contiguous states)
    abutting, adjacent, adjoining, bordering, conterminous, flanking, flush, fringing, joining, juxtaposed, neighboring, skirting, touching, verging
    Words Related to contiguous approximate, close, closest, immediate, near, nearby, nearest, next-door, nigh
    attached, communicating, connected, connecting, interconnecting, joined, linked, united
    bounding, circumjacent, embracing, encircling, enclosing (also inclosing), fencing, rimming, surrounding
    marginal, peripheral, tangent, tangential,

    I know of such a place, with all of the “South Bank” in a place most can see is a WWWH
    and all these clues cross there.

    Something tells me that SCBook 243 is a big hint… https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/29/scrapbook-two_hundred-forty-three/

    TT

        • Sorry wwwamericana, I said “BLAME” and that is what is about to happen, when the TC is found and someone is gonna take the blame for a truly wild solution. Bingo! 3 maybe within 200′. Something tells me that ever since this Chaos, SC 209 started, lota searchers can read the tea leaves here. TT

          • Why would you take the blame for a crazy solution? Unless it’s the correct solution, then FF is to blame, not you. You’re just the genius who figured it out. If it’s not, nobody’s gonna worry about it.

      • Tom – awesome find, up there somewhere… not giving away the farm, but you’re metaphysically halfway there… and even without a Start point, you could backpedal to the tc area. For me, when I found it, it gave confirmation… both pieces that is.

        Good luck.

        • Chrisazy, no one is givin the farm away, er the TC, except Forrest, and it is not at the end of the world, but rumor has it that it can seen from there, heck a kid really gets time to think when he sits on a gravestone in the middle of nowhere, we should have a requiem for a wreck, to reflect on the lesson given to us by that wonderful “BOX ELDER FAMILY TREE”… Who is that mysterous figure, and wasnt the battle of Shiloh unique battle in the Civil War, digest this and reflect on what the message could be, see “But this time I was fiddling with the radio trying to find Meryl Haggard singing Me and Bobby Mcgee.” (note Merle, not Meryl)

          “Everything was going great until I hit an awkward looking box elder tree. It was in front of the bunk house where Shiloh lives. There was a loud careening noise that resonated around the inside of my car, and parts of something were flying through the air.f”

          Shiloh’s bunkhouse is just a small REFLECTION on what or who is inferred here: https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/10/scrapbook-two_hundred-eleven/

          Now which General served under US GRANT, who is shown in the center coin pic 3, enlarge with a right click save as…enlarge it.
          Now Chrisazy, see this one next:
          https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/24/scrapbook-two_hundred-forty-one/
          THis story is called “OLDEN WOOD?”

          What business does grandson “Shiloh Old” own and manage with his father David Old, perhaps it is “OLDEN WOOD”… I rest my case.

          TT

  46. ThIs winter season has been tough. Still
    Is. I am from Texas and since the beginning of my BOTG trips, it was like stepping into a whole ‘nother world. How in the world had I not got here sooner? I can see why Forrest created this adventure. The experiences and locations take your breath away . I am infatuated with my search area and steal away there in my mind when life gets crazy . I have a picture of a snow covered bison blowing smoke from its nose on my desk at work and take long sips from my “bear country “coffee mug every morning. I count the days every year til I can get back to the mountains and a piece of my heart will always be out there.

    • Sounds like you have more pieces of the ‘solve’ than some have. IMO the best part of the treasure hunt is as the poem title states… ‘the thrill of the chase’… ff didn’t call it the thrill of the find. I would suspect a person who is enjoying the chase just by being out there, will likely find the TC easier than someone who over thinks it all and is focused solely on the TC. IMO they may have a harder time “seeing” what Forrest saw, that made that particular spot special to him. (One misses a lot in life staring solely at the ground).
      I think having a reasonable solve is important, but enjoying the area – incorrect solve or not – while one is there makes it all worth it.
      Hoping to get out again to the woods some day myself to some of the areas I have come up with – even after someone finds the TC.

      • HotL;

        Many people “Assume” that the title of the poem is “The Thrill of the Chase.” This is wrong. The poem has no title. Forrest once stated that he forgot to give it a title. JDA

      • HotL,

        I always like my adventures even tho I’m out there looking for answers to where lies the chest.

        Just my biggest issue is time spent looking actually for the chest. Coming from Florida to the Rockies is adjustment and that alone takes time. My time usually has been two days and with one day adjusting that leaves one day of searching. One day is never enough especially if you chase some clues just because of maybe’s. Stick to the plan is not my way most times. Whenever I get the chance to go again I have to make some more time to search 2 to 3 days should give me time for all my blaze options to check out. Rain and snow have dampened me a couple of times but these factors I have enjoyed. Nothing like being in the middle of nowhere by yourself with snow falling or a light rain coming down. (Insert smile here)

        Anywho, one should always enjoy the adventure and take a little time to just sit look and listen to what nature has for you to enjoy.

        I too miss the mountains Veronica,

        Good luck to you both,
        Bur

      • It may not be the actual title to the poem , but it most certainly IS the thrill of the chase that I, like so many others need . The chest is a bonus, a very nice bonus I might add. I hope everyone is having a cozy down season and are look forward to the upcoming search season. Take care, all!

  47. Dang, gold prices have really gone up the last few market days. Guessing now would be a good time to find “indulgence” if you’re looking to cash in. Have a feeling prices may just gain more as people get scared.

    No matter what, if you find the chest it would be life changing, what ever route you took.

    Bur

    • take the 450,000 people who are “chasers”, times $2000 average spent on the chase, (no idea, just made that number up if one is wondering), and instead bought gold on spec or open market in 2010…

      sold it today (near exactly 10 years later)…. heck with $2,000,000. 🙂

      why didn’t people do this? because of “fear” of loss… why did some rich person do it instead of some other person? lack of “fear” of loss… but don’t take that the wrong way, they invested so little of their “full worth” in gold, that they fully forgot about the original investment… (talk about lack of fear) and didn’t worry about it as gold went down several times in those 10 years.

      they had no more ability to ignore fear than another person, they simply had so much they didn’t worry about it.

      success can be described by fear of the unknown… don’t mistake a rich person’s fear tolerance for actual ability to ignore fear.

      next time someone is bragging about their “success” of one kind or another… most of the time, (unless of course they are self made) it will be because they “forgot” about that investment… you know, born in the right place/family, had too much didn’t worry about losing…

      how does one get around this? just a hair more fear tolerance than the next guy, mixed with a huge amount of luck, and a sprinkle of smarts on top… stirred not shaken.

      • Luck is a smaller factor than you implied, in my opinion. We make our
        own, opinions and luck, that is. And handles, sometimes. I am Very
        serious.

        As always, IMO.

    • Bur,

      Gold prices are likely to go up leading up to the election. it’s pretty much the nature of the stock market during an election year. And generally when gold goes up the dollar goes down (and usually stock prices too for that matter). All IMO of course.

      -Ann

  48. https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/13/scrapbook-two_hundred-thirty-one/

    Let us take a poll, who does this figure 5 of those Yazzie Yarnell Dolls represent in a Kachina Spirit?
    “The antelope figure in the center is 43” tall, a monumental size for a doll. He has real horns. Many of the accouterments on the dolls are genuine historical artifacts that predate the doll. The antique white beaded buffalo on the breast of the figure at far left, is one, and the beaded bald eagle on the second doll, is another.” Gotta love symbolism when Forrest spells it out.

    If you said Kit Carson, you might have a Bingo! Bonus question, which National Forest area did Aldo Leopold manage? Bingo, see SC Book 169 written just 5 days after Winter Thought, but why next at 171 and 172 a Church Bingo and a Church Bell and then Erics train bell, again you win. I did not make this stuff up folks.

    TT

  49. To All,

    Okay folks, I have managed to numerate what I believe to be the Nine Clues in the poem!!! This is a huge IMO so do not take it as fact by any means. Feel free to let me know what you think? I mark that with a question because I’m not sure just how much I really want to hear but I will entertain replies nonetheless.

    The Nine Clues:
    1. Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.
    2. Put in below the home of Brown.
    3. From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh;
    4. there’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.
    5. If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    6. but tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go in peace.
    7. So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answer I already know, I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
    8. So hear me all and listen good, your effort will be worth the cold.
    9. If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.

    -Ann

    • Addendum,

      I would like to add that I believe the first stanza if not a clue itself is/may be hint(ish).

      All IMO.

      -Ann

    • Hi Ann O’.;

      Your parsing of the poem is almost identical to mine.

      I put your #5 and #6 together, and I break your #7 into my #6 and #7.

      Like you, I am not saying that my way is right. Your way could easily be the correct way – but for now I will stick with mine.

      Thanks for posting your ideas – JDA

      • For me, stanza #4 seems to be one complete thought or action.
        All four lines relate to a specific subject.

        Stanza #5 – First two lines ask a question – and therefore COULD stand alone. The next two lines answer that question, so I can see why you grouped them together. JDA

        • JDA,

          I think I broke up stanza 4 because of the conjunction “but” which seems to signify a change in thought in terms of the overall stanza. I kept stanza 5 in tact because I feel it signifies the “riddle” if indeed there is a riddle in the poem in the traditional sense of the word, and the second half seems to suggest something about what the answer to FFs question ought to be. I have posted elsewhere that I think the answer to the question posed, when considered in the context of a traditional riddle, is simply that he had to leave because he could not stay. I believe I may have expounded once before on potential implications if that version of stanza 5 is correct. A lot of ifs but seems to make sense. All IMO. And thanks for the feedback.

          -Ann

          • Sounds like good reasoning to me – Good Luck come spring. You may get all that you hope for – 🙂 JDA

          • JDA,

            Not so sure about that. I won’t actually be looking for the chest and my hopes are currently elsewhere for the time being. Have some much more pressing things going on in life that I am hoping all work out. But I thank you for the encouraging words. I am working with a few BOTG searchers outside of these threads possibly helping them with places to look or confirming their own thoughts. So I am looking forward to seeing what they may come up with. Should be interesting either way! Good luck to you if you are one who will be putting BOTG.

            -Ann

    • This is what I think:

      1 Begin it where warm waters halt
      2 And take it in the canyon down,
      3 Not far, but too far to walk.
      4 Put in below the home of Brown.
      5 From there it’s no place for the meek,
      6 The end is ever drawing nigh;
      7 There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      8 Just heavy loads and water high.
      9 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,

      • Aaron and Mibster – So why did Forrest bother writing the other three stanzas? Are they just “fluff”? Just askin’ – JDA

        • Not at all, as a matter of fact I think stanza 1 and 5 are crucial in determining the key word that helps solve this thing. I think stanza 6 either give hints of the area of the blaze / chest, refers to chest itself, or a combination of the two. IMO the searcher will understand stanza 6 more after finding HLAWH, blaze, and TC.

          • Okay, but Aaron, what do you do after “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze”?
            If you have one clue wrong, most likely you have the order wrong. This cannot be the last clue. You still would need an instruction of what to do next. Even if the chest was there at your feet, if we follow what f says, the 9th clue would need to say bend over, or look down, or whatever.
            I am curious though, what do you think the blaze is, and how were you able to solve for it with just the poem?

          • Aaron,

            This is the list I envision a lot of those posting use, or something very similar. I wonder how the differences in the lists we have provided may lead searchers to different solves, if in fact they do. It would be interesting to compare potential solves following both lists and see how they are similar and/or different. Thanks for sharing. All IMO,

            -Ann

          • Well PI, It so happens I have a backup plan. If I get to the blaze and cannot find the chest then I’ll look quickly down 🙂

          • Ann, I have the poem memorized and the beauty of having more lines of the poem after what I think is the last clue is that I can adjust on site if need be. If I get as far as the blaze on foot I feel confident that I can get to the TC.

          • Aaron,

            That makes sense. I imagine if you find the blaze you will no doubt find the chest as well! I think the “clues” I identify in the latter part of the poem are more descriptive than instructional. I imagine some of the Chase will have to be figured out with BOTG. Unfortunately I will not be taking part in that. But I look forward to hearing from those who do, you included. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • So Aaron, you are saying that there are actually 10 clues? (jus’ playin’)
            My point was on how specific f is. He couldn’t have the 13th line as the last clue because of the need to tell the searcher everything they need to do. Maybe your 5,6,7,8 or whatever isn’t what f would consider a clue, and that let’s say line 14, 15, or whatever is.
            What I’m saying is that when you leave your house to look, you will know exactly where to go and what to do because the poem told you what to do. The answer to all the clues may not be known, but where you are going and what you will do there has to be, via the poem.
            With guessing what might possibly be a clue, I don’t need to tell the statistics guy, but that method is not the way to go. At any part of a solve. So, getting to the blaze and guessing that you will be looking down shouldn’t lead to omitting a clue process. (yes, I am too a quality guy).
            I’m not trying to discount a solve, but more trying to remind that f will tell us exactly everything to do. It’s like f wrote everything like he was trying to convey to a kid. Explain everything.
            I just see a lot of solves being of the same point to point construction, which leads to a lot of guess work. I sit with the poem in front of me, someone explains their solve, and it can’t be followed with just the poem. I have not of yet been able to read a searchers write-up and gotten past the first clue before I don’t need to read any further. A lot of good reads, but nothing serious about a solve. And that is attributed to all the point to point solves that need to have answers to all clues beforehand. Whether it’s needing the previous clue to solve a later clue, or getting the names of 9 possible coincidences, or by using all these maps and research to explain what they can’t explain with just the poem.
            I’m not saying that is what you are doing, just that if it was possible to know all the clues, a solve would then need to be exact and specific to the spot. And, looking at a blaze and expecting the chest to magically appear in one’s arms I truly do not believe will happen. So, if one clue is wrong, then the whole is wrong. Like seeing or finding letter values in the poem. If one letter value is missing, then the whole thing is mute. If one letter value can be proved wrong, then the whole is wrong until the whole is proven correctly. That’s why a lot of searchers do not believe there are letter values in the poem. No “x”. If you cannot get the letter value for “x”, then the whole thing is mute. Or you use the regular letter placements in the alphabet as a number system. Which the word “gaze” proves wrong along with other things. Since that one thing is off, the idea is off. If you have one clue off, then the solve is off. If you need prior clues to solve for later clues, then your first clue will be off. If you need names of geographical places as all clues, then your specifics is off, and thus so is your solve. If f tells us that someone may have the first 4 clues, it’s not just an e-mail that he is talking, it’s everything that he has seen and heard of. With all the talk on the blogs about every thing, and with f participating, with all the talk about the blaze, isn’t it likely that since the farthest someone has mentioned might be up to 4 clues, that the blaze would be clue 4? That’s another way f could say that the 4th clue has been mentioned, but he’s not sure anyone has it correct. If the blaze was the say 8th clue, then in mentioning the blaze, f can easily say someone may have the 8th clue but he’s not sure. The blaze cannot be clue 8 or 9 because the farthest we have gotten according to f is 4 clues. That’s not saying that f reads everything, just from what he knows. 4 clues. The blaze is talked about so extensively, the best it can be is 4th. That would then mean that lines 7-12 only hold 1 clue that is on your path to the chest.
            Now if f said that someone “emailed” him something that makes him think that the searcher may have 4 clues, that is entirely different, but he doesn’t. So we must consider all avenues of communication at f’s disposal.
            (all this is going to go over well with the community). But think about it, even all the talk we do with all subjects, does not mean that f has seen it all, or takin’ note of all said. But there is no doubting that the blaze discussions have not been read by him. So, blaze, IMO, is basically the best candidate to be the 4th clue.

          • PI, I’m using clues that fit with my current, and my best ever, solution.The way I see it is stanza 1 and 5 help solve the keyword which points me to an area that the clues are located. All that being said, if for some reason I get to blaze and cannot find the chest I still have the rest of the poem memorized.

            I do not prescribe to letter values getting us anywhere.

        • Hi JDA. Good question. Not fluff, just added context.
          -Begin it where warm waters halt – location 1
          -And take it in the canyon down – location 2 to 3
          -Not far, but too far to walk – 2 to 3
          -Put in below the home of Brown – location 3
          -From there it’s no place for the meek – location 4
          -The end is ever drawing nigh; – additional info location 4
          -There’ll be no paddle up your creek – at location 4 take to 5
          -Just heavy loads and water high – also location 4
          -If you’ve been wise and found the blaze – location 5 to 6, then look down to location of treasure – 7

          The extra stanzas are not fluff, they just give the poem context. There are 9 clues, but there are only distinct 7 locations.

      • Hi Aaron: I concur with your first five, but from there we diverge. I was surprised to learn that you had been on ~20 searches!

        • Hi Zap, I’m a little surprised I have been on that many searches too. I’ve just found various different methods and locations, plus it gives me an excuse to get out and see some really awesome things.

    • Thanks Ann;
      I have a solve that uses nine of these clues also. Takes time to get through them, but when you do you realise the more you find out the more you realise you did not know. WWWH is the showstopper for sure for several reasons.

      Do you think that ff is saying “If you are brave and in the wood I give you title = to the gold”, because that would be a great name for the poem To The Gold! I suppose that would mean line 9 would be the first, which would only confuse matters.

      Mr P

      • Mr. P.,

        That would be a good title. Not exactly sure I understand your question or what you mean by line 9 would be the first. If you could clarify some I may be able to give a better response. Thank you.

        -Ann

    • Hi Ann, nice to be chatting with you again! My feelings on the nine clues are similar but as follows:
      1) Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk.
      2)Put in below the home of Brown
      3)From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh
      4)There’ll be no paddle up your creek
      5) Just heavy loads and water high
      6)If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look down your quest to seek,
      (tarry scant line IMO not a clue)
      7)So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek,
      The answer I already know, I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
      8)So hear me all and listen good, your effort will be worth the cold
      9)If you’ve been brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold.

      I also, like you, feel that since FF said the first clue is WWWH, there are no clues in the first stanza. But I do agree that there is a hint in the first stanza. It is a hint about the general area where the treasure is hidden, but it’s tough to interpret if you haven’t read TTOTC.
      Also, I don’t see Tarry Scant With Marvel Gaze etc as a clue, but as a hint or warning that if you want to “take the chest and go in peace”, you still need the last 2 clues in the poem to actually find it.
      Thanks for initiating this discussion Ann!

        • Thanks JPE! I’m hoping it will turn out that way this summer! But I am pretty new at this, since last August only, so we’ll see.

      • librarylady,

        Thank you for the feedback. I single out the tarry scant line because it may be indicative of ones surroundings. While the location of the chest is presumed to be off the beaten path so to say, I keep in mind remarks about FF being surprised bo one saw him and depending on how far you believe the parked car to be from the final resting place I imagine the line suggests not to take too much time gawking but grab the chest and return to your car quietly so as not to draw unwanted attention. Peace meaning silence reverent here.

        I also grouped your 4 and 5 together because the latter seems to be a propositional phrase completing or complementing the thought of the former. In other words while there will be no paddle up your creek there will be heavy loads and water high. That is how I read those lines. Just to clarify why I broke it down the way I did.

        And I think identifying the nine clues is probably a good idea in lieu of the fact we are trying to “solve” them. I believe there has been much discussion on the subject on other threads here prior to our arrival in the Chase. I was wondering what current thoughts were on the subject since a definitive list has never been provided by FF. Thanks for sharing! All IMO.

        -Ann

        • Ann, I actually agree with all you said, just in a bit of a different way. I do believe 4 and 5 are connected since the word “just” connects them. I finally decided to call them 2 separate clues because IMO, TBNPUYC is a very important clue and one to which the answer is much different than what many searchers are thinking. Like WWWH, it has to be solved first before you can be sure to go on to the correct HLandWH. So the way I broke it up is due to my solve. However, one could consider TBNPUYC and HLandWH all as one, and break up the last stanza into 3 clues instead of 2 as I did. Then you still have 9 clues total, and if all are interpreted correctly they still work. Again, this is just based on my solve so just IMO.
          As far as what you said about the tarry scant lines, I do agree it is a sort of description of the area-especially the reverence and the way I believe ff would indeed feel about it and want it left in peace. But part of the reason why has something to do with the actual hiding spot which you find not only by “looking down” but by understanding the last 3 clues—in the cold, If you’ve been brave, and in the wood. IMO they each have a specific meaning. I have seen some here on Dal’s site guess correctly (IMO) on the first but have not seen anyone come up with what I believe are the correct answers are for the last two. However I have definitely not read all the discussions and my theories are as yet untested so I may be all wrong.

          • Librarylady,

            Thank you. Looking forward to hearing about your search when it is concluded.

            -Ann

    • Ann, with all due respect, what you’re doing here is just repeating the poem, minus the first stanza.

      Ditto everyone else who responded.

      What I want to see are the identifiable PLACES on a map where you think at least some of these clues refer to.

      I know that posters think that reveal might be risky. But most readers are so locked into their preconceived “spot”, I don’t think it would matter. Readers would go … “Oh, Ann’s place A (or her WWWH) is nice, but it’s not where the chest or WWWH is because it doesn’t match my “solve”.

      Anyway, I don’t see any benefit to just repeating lines of the poem as clues. That’s been done a thousand times before.

      Maybe posters could be just a tad more daring with their poem perceptivity, and supposed “knowledge” of Rocky Mountain geography, and therefore name one or more geographic PLACES that represent one or more clues.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • You are so right, Ken. I am one of those so locked into their spot. If the treasure was found tomorrow, i would still have to go stomp around my area just because of so much time invested into “it”. This year will be the 3rd trip in and hopefully as much or more fun as the last two. Hope you all are having fun too.
        🙂

      • Ken (in Texas);

        I am not sure that any of my PLACES have a name – at least not on a map. My WWWsH has a descriptor like stream, creek, lake etc, but no NAME as far as I know. – Same with my “Canyon down”. You can see it on a map or on GE, but I have never seen a NAME attached to it.

        The same holds true with all of my other PLACES. Sure, I can look at GE or a topo, and match (marry) some of my PLACES with geographical features, but I can not match “my” PLACES to NAMED PLACES on a map.

        Not sure I would disclose them even if they did have NAMES. What advantage is that to me? None that I can see, except that I might then meet a few fellow searchers when I put BotG 🙂 – JMO – JDA

        • JDA, I agreed with you about possibility “to meet a few fellow searchers when you put BotG” if you disclose names and places of your search area. Just remember Cynthia’s story about finding good bison skull in your search with Sally in YNP. They put their search online and only after week or two after Cynthia found out that skull is gone. Someone “collected” it and put it on the wall (like Forrest did).
          So, I would not disclose even state where I have my current hoB. Just for case. Only my wife know exact location because of safety reasons – she will know where to find my body in case if I not return from my search 🙂

          • Hi Andy;

            Everyone knows I search in Wyoming, NOT in YNP.

            My wife and my search team know where in Wyoming, and no one else. A couple of people say that they have figured it out, but I honestly doubt it.

            Others know about my area , and even searched my area – after all Forrest has said that other searchers have been within 500′ or even 200′ so I have to assume that others may now be searching my area. I would be a fool to think otherwise.

            Have met a person or two that I suspect could be searchers, but no proof – just a feeling.

            It is a beautiful area, and others may be there just for the beauty – Only time will tell – JDA

        • Hi Seek-

          I wanted to say the same, but could not figure out a way without sounding catty – you found a way – YEA for you – 🙂 JDA

          • I think we’ve come full circle.
            Are we back to talking about cats?
            Got my eye on you JDA –
            would love to take a walk in the park with you sometime.

          • I think we should be talking cats…
            Sun
            Wood
            Large Palace / Fort. The fort was taken down piece by piece is ‘88.

      • Ken,

        What an astute observation! Indeed it would appear that all I have done is repeated the poem except for stanza 1. It’s not what I’ve done that is important but rather why I did it. We are told there are nine clues in the poem that will lead us to the chest right? Well, if I am to follow the nine clues I better be able to identify them first! How can I follow something if I don’t have a clue as to what I am following? (Pun intended) Coming from a science/math background, it is usually helpful to identify the problem before going about solving it.

        And you are right. I am sure this has been done many times over the years. Which is why at this stage in the Chase you would think identifying the nine clues would already have been done definitively, and yet it seems it hasn’t.

        And, as I am fairly new to the Chase, I thought I’d ask what current thoughts are on the nine clues. I haven’t read the book yet but I know FF mentions there being nine clues in the poem. So if I had read the book and seen the poem, one of the first things I’d ask myself is what are the nine clues. Then I’d go about trying to figure out what they mean!

        So far all we know for sure is that WWWH is the first clue. With nothing more, not only is it difficult to pinpoint what each of the nine clues are, but it’s even more daunting to try and “solve” said unknown nine clues. Since we only what the first one is for sure, I suppose that would be a great place to start (pun most definitely intended!(.

        I welcome you to share your thoughts on where you believe any of the nine clues refer to geographically. I personally don’t have any solid answers for that yet. I think only two of the clues may refer to actual named places. Those being WWWH and HOB. And while the rest may certainly refer to places with names, I don’t think the names are critical to following the clues.

        I isolate WWWH and HOB because WWWH is where we are to begin the journey and that seems to require some specific place on a map. And HOB because of the capitalization of Brown, which seems to indicate a conformational clue along the way in the form of a proper noun of some sort. It is possible that it has a more arbitrary meaning as some believe, in which case no named place would tie into it directly.

        The trouble I keep running into is why. Why would this or that be WWWH? Or why would this be HOB? Or even, why would FF feel these descriptors are worthy of the Chase and especially in terms of a place special to him? Has anyone ever compiled a list of places FF has called or consider special or important or meaningful to him? And even after compiling such a list, is it suppose that the location of the chest is one of those places? Do we suppose FF has ever talked about any named place that may be associated with finding the chest? I don’t know.

        I suppose too that in identifying the nine clues, or at least submitting suggestions as I have above, we can gain a sense of how we re reading the poem in relation to one another. And, perhaps that will help some searcher consider the poem in a new and helpful light. Maybe it will even help lead to a rendering of the poem as FF has intended. That is the goal after all right? To understand what FF is trying to tell us? All IMO.

        -Ann

        • Hi Ann … the problem here is that the poem is so vague, so ambiguous, that merely repeating the poem’s lines is just as vague, just as ambiguous.

          Almost everyone repeats the poem’s lines, with a few variations.

          To really identify the clues in the poem, a searcher is going to have to be more specific.

          As an example, is “water high” a waterfall? If so, tell us why? Is no place for the meek a place where grisly bears roam?

          One doesn’t have to identify the exact spots where these so-called clues refer. But searchers need to be more specific as to what some of the poem’s words and phrases actually mean.

          Ken (in Texas)

          • This is a “menagerie”
            Take it from me if you know what I mean men it’s manage to nag agelessly as you eerily read until you marry it imaginativerly
            straight forward or 7.

          • Ken,
            Nice TX two step…
            What are your representation of the clues?

            You claim a large geographical area might be involved… I’d be curious to know some of your own ideas.

            It easy to ask… Why not tell as well.

          • Ken,

            I understand the frustration. I am only trying to get a sense of what searchers believe are the nine clues here not necessarily what the clues refer to. That would be the next logical step though. I also understand searcher reluctance to share specifics about their thoughts on such matters. I will try to come up with a second list, this time providing the sorts of answers to the clues you are looking for. I don’t believe I have come up with ideas for each one just yet but I really haven’t gotten that far either. Heck, I just managed to identify the nine clues (and may not necessarily be correct in that) recently. So let me see what I can come up with and I shall post it here. I want to give answers that have good whys though since there are a lot of possibilities to some of the clues without having good whys! All IMO.

            -Ann

          • I hear ya Ken (in Texas)
            There’s been some who elaborate the connections with the poem words and/or phrases with geographical things here.

            Bottom line is: If you don’t have the words and/or phrases that are clues in the poem before matching them to geographical places first, then all you have is a nice vacation as all us BOTGer’s have proven as well.

            I’m an expert in my own mind as to which words and phrases are clues in the poem, and I’ll say that 99.9% of the searchers here that comment do not have that right.

            My advice is figure out which words and phrases in the poem are clues before you try and figure out places or things at places. This is very critical in the correct solve IMO.

        • Hi Ann, regarding our conversation the other day about waters halt or water halts, what will be a good example of each? Grammatically speaking.

          For example, if I think of a sink a close basin or something similar which of the two I’m using, the right one or the wrong one? Also, if the term wwwh is a geographic feature such as a basin then how can it be narrowed down from the many others? Is it both a geographic feature and a named location on the map cleverly obfuscated within the clue, and that’s how we know we have the one? Lots of questions….

          • Oz10,

            Great to hear from you again! And a great question too! Let me see how best to reply……

            So in terms of water halts vs waters halt, the obvious grammatical difference is what is halting. Water could refer to any entity of water, but waters usually carries a moving undertone.

            For instance, we often think of the Pacific Ocean as a single body of water (note the non pluralization here) usually considered to be stationary between the continents of the Americas and Asia. Technically it’s not stationary but that is not the point here.

            On the other hand if we consider the phrase rough waters we immediately picture rough moving water (perhaps the same Pacific Ocean mentioned above). We also don’t picture say a cup or pot of water in this sense.

            So that is one distinction. Now in terms of where warm waters halt versus where warm water halts, I would say that is more relevant to the other distinction I made previously which is this: we ought to be figuring out where warm waters halt and not where is where warm waters halt. Does that make sense? I’ll try to elaborate.

            We talk about WWWH as if it was some magical location like a named place on a map. As if I could open a map up and say, ah there is WWWH. So far I haven’t seen any maps with WWWH as a label! 🙂 So instead of focusing on where WWWH is by name, I should just be trying to figure out quite literally where warm waters halt. I imagine doing so will lead to a place with a name that can be identified on a map. But I am not so convinced the name of the place is what I should be looking for as much as the where.

            I imagine at this point you may feel I still haven’t given you any concrete examples, and you likely would be correct. The problem there lies in defining what is meant by halt. There are some who believe halt refers to the end of a river so that where a warm river runs into a cold river that is a justifiable WWWH. Personally I do not like this definition.

            Instead, I like the following two possibilities:

            1. bring or come to an abrupt stop.
            2. a suspension of movement or activity, typically a temporary one.

            There are any number of examples for these definitions. Obviously a basin could fit as could a geyser. It could also be a hot spring that terminates at a lake and goes no further (as in some outlet) or a river/stream (or the like) that dead ends somewhere. It really depends on your view of the term halt.

            For me converging rivers is not a satisfactory halt. (Unless they were on the expressways in Chicago during rush hour!) Merging waters don’t jump out to me as halting waters. Why not say where warm waters merge (or converge if into other warm waters) instead? The term halt was not chosen to rhyme with another word, so if FF intended an alternate meaning then merge/converge would seem more fitting for the river idea.

            I don’t know whether this has been helpful but that’s about all I can say without researching possible WWWHs for you myself! I’m having a hard enough time trying to figure it out for me! All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Ann – I totally agree with your examples in reference to the word “halt”, BUT I also take into consideration the man who wrote the poem.

            TTOTC page 4, 4th paragraph: “I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.”

            Based on ff’s words, I don’t think it’s a far stretch to imagine the end of one river that then becomes another (by name) being the “halting” of the first. I could be wrong, just MO.

          • Geysergirl,

            I completely understand. The meaning of halt can be taken in several different directions. I know of a number of searchers who share your thoughts.

            Oz10 is inquisitively trying to figure out what my one solid WWWH may be from previous discussions. I have only found one location in the Rockies that fits the interpretation I have described above which until thinking of WWWH in those terms had me looking at all sorts of possibilities, none of which I could really narrow down.

            Interestingly enough, you can find lists of rivers in each state for both warm and cold waters. There tend to be too many where warm ones end in cold ones for me to choose one for the Chase. I am fully aware of FF’s fishing and that could certainly help make certain rivers more likely than others. YNP seems to be a popular choice among searchers.

            One other reason I am reluctant to pick a river for WWWH based on FF’s fishing is that nothing in the poem suggests to me that WWWH has anything to do with FF’s fishing. I realize the book may be where we get a hint to this or the like. And certainly Brown has been speculated to refer to trout which could suggest fishing.

            I like to think these notions are too vague to pinpoint a specific area in the Rockies where FF hid the chest. I believe something has to point to a specific geographical location, though admittedly I am not sure yet what.

            I posted elsewhere, recently, that I think WWWH, HOB and a special connection to FF will likely provide a specific location. Of course, identifying these are the tricky part right?

            It was what FF said about WWWH. It was something to effect that if we don’t know where warm waters halt, we don’t know anything. And somewhere else he said something to the effect that “If I told you that, you’d go straight to the chest.” referring to revealing who/what HOB was. He is notoriously know for calling the chests location special or dear to him.

            I apologize for my lack of citation and poor referencing. I am not as keen on where FF quotes are among all of the years of ATFs and I don’t have a great set of notes at this point. I also in no way discourage those whose WWWH is a junction of rivers. I am no more correct in my thoughts about halt than anyone else at this point. I look forward to hearing where everyone’s thoughts may lead them this search season! Thank you Geysergirl.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Hi Ann, no I don’t want you to look for me and not enough information to start looking anyways. You said “it really depends on your view of the term halt” and as you listed there are only two probable definitions to consider. Now, is there such a place where warm waters abruptly stop, or will it be logical to go with the second option ‘a temporary’ one? Forrest answered a question with ‘there are many places where warm waters halt in the Rockies and most of them are north of Santa Fe’. As of today, I have not found a location where warm waters ‘abruptly’ stop south of SF. (that’s IF he was being literal) Maybe someone else has.

            Regarding ‘waters’ I can see FF defining the term somewhat similar as you have suggested. In fact, in the book ttotc and My War for Me chapter he wrote: ‘…Maybe it was because I knew the history of that water, its treachery; it had diluted the blood of so many sailors who had dared to test its beauty’. He was talking about the South China Sea, one singular body of water. Also, there in the ttotc book and in the chapter Flywater, when he writes about the places he’s been fly fishing it’s now ‘waters’ (plural). Is it all rough waters? I don’t know but the point is that it is not one singular body of water but many as it could be said that all those rivers in Wyoming good for catching trout can be -trout waters-. So, are we looking for a halting place of two or more sources of warm water? I guess that will be easier to find if that was the case. If it is just one rough stream of warm waters, then it is not possible to know which one with just those four words.

          • Oz,
            I get what your doing has far as the idea of how fenn used Water vs. Waters… kinda a check and balance idea to what the poem has: waters vs. water.

            The simple logic is plural {more than one water source} vs. singular {as to actual water as a liquid}.
            LOL now add in halt as a possible meaning as “stop”… Logically “all” waters stop being liquid when frozen.

            But here’s the catch… just using those two types or ideas of what could be doesn’t give us a real sense of which way to lean… shouldn’t there be something else to help? Something to make the line less ambiguous?

            Later… much later in the poem we have “you’re effort will be worth the cold” Does cold help with the idea of what “waters” to “halt” to “cold” may refer to as a place where all three must occur?

            This is why I gave up county clues {and Halo’s Q&A} AND only using the idea we have to solve a line one at a time before moving on. IF, I repeat, IF we are not told of a location all the clues are located…then the first clue can’t be as “ambiguous” as some say the poem is… it should be something that anyone can figure out using GE or maps and the poem.

            Why do many simply think to solve a clue we can only utilize that line or or a prior line/stanza before understand something later in the poem. While I disagree with JDA and the word wood, relating to the first clue… the method of using later information to suffice any clue, not only seems reasonable but necessary.
            Not only do we need to decipher the first clue.. we need its one and only location.
            OR
            We should know from something where this all takes place… I highly doubt that is simply a state, nor a region {like YSNP}

            Just out of curiosity.. you mentioned “many warm waters halt” nearly all are N. of SF as we’ve been told… do you believe that comment relates to only one type or possibility of the correct deciphering? Or a more general idea like, there are tens of thousands of blazes in the RM’s?.. being different things.

          • Hello Geysergirl, I don’t know if you follow some of the youtube videos out there but in a recent one with KPRO, she remembered a discussion with FF a couple years ago where the topic of Ojo Caliente, the Firehole river converging with the Madison at the junction and how that could be a possible WWWH and to that Forrest replied “you and two hundred thousand other searchers, but that is not creative enough” or something to that effect. That’s what I remember from the interview and a few other things. There is no proof that came directly from FF in those exact words but something to think about if it did.

          • Oz10 – I do not recall every hearing anything about that conversation with Forrest and his comments. It seems a bit “off” for me as I just don’t see Forrest making such a direct statement….but, I will see if I can research that a bit and see if there’s any truth to it. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

          • Hi Seeker,

            Re: Logically “all” waters stop being liquid when frozen.

            If you are referring to the possibility of Glaciers, I like that idea cause that is what they are, frozen waters that slowly move down by gravity creating canyons, not far but too far to walk back in time. Lol… I just don’t know if that was his idea.

            Re: While I disagree with JDA and the word wood, relating to the first clue… the method of using later information to suffice any clue, not only seems reasonable but necessary.

            I agree with that too. There is a reason why FF has told us many times to memorize the WHOLE poem after reading the book. He could’ve said the first clue, or the first stanza, the first two stanzas or one stanza at a time and then read the book looking for hints. Why the whole poem?

            Re: …you mentioned “many warm waters halt” nearly all are N. of SF as we’ve been told… do you believe that comment relates to only one type or possibility of the correct deciphering?

            I’m not saying is the ‘correct deciphering’ but what we are doing -at the moment- is considering that the words in the poem mean what they say, and by following the possible literal definitions.

          • Oz10,

            Some good stuff!

            I only listed the definitions of halt that I think most likely apply in the case of the Chase. There are other definitions of halt but for me they seem less likely.

            That said, I think I can elaborate a bit further. So, there are places where warm waters have been known to abruptly stop and other where it does so temporarily. I give you the geyser which can actually cover both definitions but I will simplify a bot further.

            Active geysers, while arguable under the abrupt stop definition, would likely fall under the second definition to most. Then there are inactive geysers, or geysers that have stopped altogether, in which case they would likely fall under the first definition. Does this mean WWWH is a geyser? No. I am just providing more specific examples of how those definitions could be applied. There are a great numer of geysers in the Rockies just like warm watered rivers. It would be hard to pick just one.

            I like how you applied some of FFs own words to what I said about water vs. waters. I am inclined to believe that the use of waters refers to moving water and not necessarily a plurality of more than one body of water. Certain bodies of water such as rivers, streams and waterfalls tend to be thought of as moving. Whereas lakes, reservoirs and even oceans tend to be viewed as stationary.

            It is possible, and this may be my only exemplary instance of the plurality, that multiple warm bodied waters halt in a basin (even temporarily if you wish). But again, there are a number of basins in the Rockies. I did use the watershed info on GE once to see what it provided and it only had one “basin” marked in the Rockies. It’s the Gunnison Basin. I’ve actually been led to that area for other reasons but in terms of WWWH, if that line does refer to a basin this would be my only basis for picking any of the multiple basins in the Rockies. That being the case, I do not find this reasoning very satisfying, even if it leads me to an area of interest for unrelated reasons.

            Throughout our WWWH exchanges I have been trying to figure out what caused me to come across the solid WWWH I found with the methodology discussed. I have not yet been able to recreate those steps but I know it had something to do with considering what the words mean and how FF said them. I focused on warm waters and halt.

            I know I did searches for warm waters in the relevant states as you can find lists of them for each state. It may have been in browsing such information that led me to the WWWH I now lean toward. I’ll try to refigure those steps so that in naming the place, the reasoning makes sense as to how I arrived at that location. At the moment it has escaped even me!

            And FYI, I had considered the notion of temperature, such as freezing water and glaciers, early on. That would be a satisfactory route if halt was not in the present tense. That and I would be hard pressed to pick one glacial feature over another for the same reasons I have a hard time picking one geyser or river known for brown trout.

            The FF quote about many places where warm waters halt is curious. Makes me wonder what he means by the prase in lieu of the fact that he suggested there are many. Maybe his meaning is more in line with the temporary definition as opposed to the abruptly stop. If that is the case I would be har pressed as to why one should be picked over another.

            I did just think of something else that has me leaning toward this particular WWWH. So in addition to fitting a rendering of the definitions as described previously, there was something in one of the stories in the book that gave a possible special connection to FF. I believe wherever a searchers solve may be there ought to be some meaningful connection to FF involved.

            I don’t recall which story as I don’t have a copy of the book. And I don’t recall the connection. I believe the body of water for my WWWH is mentioned by name though but I’d have to get that confirmed as well. I really should keep notes on all of this! And I don’t particularly care for the likely HOB in this area but if it’s the correct area then so be it. Of course that will require BOTG! So we shall see if the are gets searched this year or not. In the meantime, keep looking.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

        • I think it is difficult Ann for people to explain what their interpretation of the 9 clues are without revealing too much. I believe I have a great solve. All my clues line up perfectly and one does not work without the other. I try keep my cards close to my chest and I would not want to put them out there, but what I am doing is setting everything out online on one of my own websites password protected page. Access granted to God before BOTG and access to the whole world after, whether I find it or not. Happy to share mine this way at the appropriate time!

          I do say a lot more on the FB groups, but I have to confess, mainly red herrings. I like to throw seed to the chickens from time to time. Keep them busy and distracted while I hunt the chest. I have more respect for the guys on this blog though, so until the right time you will have to be my name!

          • Mr. P,

            Completely understood. Know that I am not looking for complete interpretations by any means. I just ask that when discussing clues by number such as “In order to solve clue 2…..” we identify what is meant by “clue 2” or whichever clue is being referenced in the discussion, if only because everyone has their own ideas about what the nine clues are. Thus I suggested referring to the more universal lines of the poem.

            This mostly only comes into play when trying to figure out how many clues (and by extension which clues) those 200′ and 500′ searchers figured out, or didn’t figure out. I’m not convinced figuring that out is possible, let alone fruitful but nonetheless it helps to identify what clue 3, clue 4, etc., etc. means when being spoken about. That’s all I was really getting at.

            Looking forward to hearing about your search once it’s complete. All IMO.

            -Ann

      • Ken, you are right of course-but I agree with Ann, it is helpful, especially for those newer to the search, to try and identify exactly which lines are the clues and which not. If you are a seasoned searcher of course you may be beyond that point. On the other hand, if you are a seasoned searcher and thoroughly attached to your search area, then I don’t see any reason why you need to know the names of places I have “married” my clues to—and yes most though not all do have names that have been given to them. But it seems to me your only reasons would be either just curiosity or a desire to know if we are searching where you are. If it’s curiosity, I don’t feel the desire to answer it. My husband and my BOTG partners are the only ones who will know for sure. If you just want to know if you are going to run into my partners in your area, you can tell me where you are searching and I’ll let you know whether there’s any chance of that, lol!

          • For the fun of it….

            I actually have areas of interest in three of the states: WY, CO and NM. Nothing in MT that I know of unless my geography is off, which without looking at a map before posting this may be the case! Now you have me wanting to looking at a map! Since I’m not actually doing any searching I don’t have a search state per se but the areas of interest in each state are fairly specific. I think info about them can be found elsewhere in some of my earlier posts. I have nothing so far leaning more towards one over the others but I am working on trying to narrow that down.

            -Ann

        • Library Lady,

          In my opinion, and mine only, I see it as sheer folly to try and label what you think are the nine clues early on in the chase. I say this for a number of reasons. First, when I initially sat down with the poem, I took several highlighters and marked every word or phrase that I identified as needing to be understood to find the treasure. It is far more than 9 things. Just one example, “put in”. is that a clue? Or is it just a term that I will need to understand?

          Other than the fact FF tells us the first clue is WWWH, no one knows what the clues are. Certainly one can postulate that if the clues start at “begin” then they end at “cease”. Yet searchers have made some good arguments that they may be several more clues after that.

          Then of course there are questions like: is each sentence a clue? Can two lines equal a single clue (BIWWWH and TIITCD, for example.)? Are there hints also in the poem that are not clues, and if so what differentiates a hint from a clue?

          Early on, I saw a lot of seasoned searchers out there boldly stating that they knew what the nine clues were and sharing their conclusions with anyone who would listen. We are all free to share our conclusions, I would just warn anyone listening not to buy into anyone else’s decisions but to do their own work.

          Ultimately, I think locking in a conclusion that you KNOW what the clues are too early can kill you chance of finding the chest. I think the chase requires thinking -research-testing-revising-more thinking-more researching -and so on.

          Happy hunting this search season!

          • I stopped trying to count clues when I realized each “clue” might have multiple meanings. What if it was nine clues and nine location but then there was sub locations and multiple meanings. See. Just get the starting point of the poem and go from there is my methodology, and if I find it then I’ll go backwards and sweet what it means then. Maybe it changes even yet again then!?

          • Schrodinger’s Treasure,

            Normally I don’t agree with everything in a person’s single comment, but I do here.
            Fenn didn’t count the number of clues until the poem was done… even while going through drafts… he claimed they stayed “about the same.”
            LOL if the guy who created the clues waited till the poem was finalized, how does anyone truly expect to pick out what clues are what?
            However, when simple chatting is going on about what ideas we have for everything… we tend to pick words and phrases and call them clues for those discussions. Even create threads for the ore popular ideas…

            I’ll ask an old question I have asked many times; How many clues create an answer we need?
            The reason I asked this type of question is not about what we think a clue reference is, and more about { for example only } Can the second stanza be of 4 clues for a single place? Can stanza 3 be of instruction and not of places. Do all clues have different places or is this a single place we need to be at?

            These types of questioning put a thought to a pattern, line of thinking. While the debate of what is a clue will go on till the end… I think it might be better asked… how many clues does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-pop.
            I’l jump out on a limb and say; there might be as little as three physical place that lead to the final destination… the remainder of the information might be directional/instructional. Call them clues, hints, answers… but they are vital to understand no matter how we label them.

            End of commentary….

          • Seeker,

            So I understand the notion that trying to identify the nine clues definitively may be a fruitless pursuit. I think in regenerating this sort of dialogue I wasn’t so interested in establishing a definitive list of the nine clues as I was in understanding what others consider to be the nine clues. The reason for this being a better understanding of their respective posts.

            So for instance, if you were to post something about clues 1 through 3 then I would certainly wish to know what you meant by clues 1 through 3. Since you and I may have different ideas about what the nine clues may be, it would helpful for this posting to identify the clues they are constantly referring to.

            Obviously conversing about any of the clues in the poem would be made much easier if there was some consensus as to what the clues are/were. And I suppose, being fairly new to the Chase, I am surprised that there isn’t a more general consensus regarding the clues after ten years of the Chase. So, for me, (I was temporarily distracted from my thoughts here and forgot what I was going to say!)

            I guess for me, if I am talking about clues, it helps to identify what I am talking about. It’s more of a dialogue enabler.

            To get to the question you pose though…..

            I think the number of clues needed will depend on the level of confidence each seeker has in identifying the clues and whatever solve they may have for them. Is it possible to identify a WWWH and be confident enough to start a BOTG there without having much else to go on? Sure. Is it more or less effective than having confidence in more? I don’t know.

            Can/should we try to “solve” as many of the perceived clues as possible before putting BOTG? That depends on ones intents I imagine. Adventurists would likely say no. Those purely going in hopes of truly finding the chest would probably disagree. Then there are those, such as myself, who won’t be having BOTG but wonder nonetheless.

            I think if you are confident in why you are led to a search area then you likely have satisfactorily “solved” whatever number of clues led you there and will base a decision on whether or not to go on the level of confidence you have about all of that. Do I imagine anyone can sit at home and get to the point where they could go directly to the chest in the same sense FF could? That is not likely.

            I wish I had something more definitive to share regarding this. For myself, if I were planning on BOTG I would want a fairly solid WWWH, HOB and connection to FF. To me, why is more important than what (or where). Why should I go here? Or, more importantly, why would FF want me to go here?

            Okay, I am getting distracted again and my thoughts are all wandering now. Maybe this will help or maybe it won’t. Either way I hope you have enjoyed reading. All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Ann,

            My point is simple… The reader see 9 and automatically wants 9 places.

            A clue is just a piece of information and most of the time more than a single clue is need for an answer.

            For example: WWsH can be a clue but without two other clues in combination with it we may never know what or where the clue is.

            Again, just for example; should the first clue be a water fall… We have the word waters… Possibly meaning two falls. This may help in eliminating many places. But it would simply be a guess if we didn’t have a canyon metioned with a downward direction as well as an unknown distance that can’t be walked… The vertical drop of the waters.

            In this example three clues would equate to on place or feature… Instead of three different places in the attempt to make nine clues equate to individual places.

            Then again, are those lines three clues or just one?

            It’s hard to say until something bring the whole poem together, right

            But even in the idea above… Where this water fall is not known… Can a later clue give up a location? Does the book give up a location?

            Halo’s question was a great question because Fenn did count the clues while writing the poem… He just ended up with that amount.

            Personally; I think the mentioning of 9 clues in the book was a helpful idea to let the readers know where the actual clues begin and end.
            So, I think it might be more important to ask why the other stanza are needed and their purpose.

          • Librarylady –
            In response to this statement you made above: “Are there hints also in the poem that are not clues, and if so what differentiates a hint from a clue?”

            Here is what Forrest has said. And although he is making this reference to hints speaking about the TOTC book, I would think we can apply that thinking to the poem as well.

            ” A clue will point you towards the treasure chest, and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”
            Tarry Scant, ID9292, Richard Eeds Show, 5/29/2015
            https://santafe.com/podcasts/forrest-fenn-treasurer-hider-author-gallery-owner-and-santa-fe-legend

          • My bad, the above was actually meant for Schrodinger’s Treasure who responded to Librarylady. Sorry about that.

          • Seeker,

            I get what you are saying. I just find it interesting that FF identifies 9 specific clues in his own poem. Whether those are directional, informational, descriptive or what have you, the interest for me is that FF says there are nine clues. If it were anyone else it would not be so interesting to me. Obviously if FF had identified what the nine clues are, then we would have a better idea of what we are trying to figure out. I haven’t even seen any ATFs that address this directly with FF, as in giving him a list and asking if that is the nine clues in his poem. Not that he would confirm or deny either way, but still has no one ever asked?

            The matter increases in importance when FF does answer questions about how many of the clues have been solved or how many of the clues have searchers gotten right. Well whatever his response, as long as we don’t know what the nine clues are specifically, we really have no idea which parts of the poem or how much of the poem searchers may or may not have gotten right. That’s like being in a room with 100 people and someone saying “Someone in this room knows the answer to my question.” Well, what’s the question!?!

            All I am really suggesting is that when speaking of clue 1 or 4 or whatever number, we identify what we mean by the number used since we may have different ideas about what clue 4 may mean. The idea was not to argue whose list of the clues was right or wrong, but rather to compare lists so that communication about the clues is clarified in discussions.

            If you and I are talking about clue 3 but you are referring to clue 3 on your list and me on mine then we are talking about two very different clues. Clarification would greatly help. All IMO.

            -Ann

            PS-It may even be better just to refer to lines in the poem as opposed to perceived numbered clues. It’s not like we can mix up the numbering of the lines of the poem! Just a thought.

  50. I’m guessing the road we take down the canyon, dead ends at WWWH, where we begin. That makes the most sense to me. If the poem is simple and straight forward, I would think the solution would be too. All IMO.

    • James;

      You seem to read the poem opposite of what I read. I would think that the road we take – UP the canyon, dead ends at WWWsH, so that we can “And take it in the canyon down…” For me, this is straight forward, or down hill – as all water flows down hill, not up. JMO – JDA

      • James & JDA, I think you both sorta got the ‘down’ point as FF used it in TTOTC on pg 41. Down is neither a lower elevation or south.

    • The word “road” is not in the poem. What makes you think that a road is involved in a good solve?

      • … because he said he parked his car?

        Or maybe you think that
        Forrest’s use of a car is a red herring, and that actually he parachuted in. 🙂

        Having mommy and daddy and their 2 kids Susie and Johnny all parachute in to the treasure site would be a wonderful adventure, and so safe. (heeheehee)

        Ken (in Texas)

        • if he said he parked his car – that’s good enough for me- to me heavy loads is a highway and its in the poem—– frank

        • Your logic is skewed. If you have the right area, then the poem , which gave you the right area, doesn’t need to give you the road. A road to say Ojo Caliente, can be found using a map. There is too much assuming and locking out other points of view when folks read the poem. Example: stanza 1 gives you the right mountain, valley, hill, town, etc. Then wwwh becomes obvious, why is a road in poem needed? It’s not.

          • deeepthnker- i respect the way you think – I think you are the wrong one – you don’t need a road you can hike for 3 days to the tc and I will drive and get there in 45 min – and for stanza 1 what you say is- isn’t— frank

  51. Some here are ignoring reality at the expense of finding the TC, it must be safe and in the summer, where you would see trees note trees? If I told you the house of Brown, that not who is important, is Brown a real person or just a proper noun, one that builds his home Ardi and paddles up your creek.

    I for one prefer the “slow boat”, “slow train” and a “slow elevator” like the one in SC Book 234,
    “And of course, there it was, the first one on top. Walking back to the elevator, we talked about Evetts Haley’s great book collection and I mentioned that it should be given to the Smithsonian – the elevator I meant. f

    “When I told Fred that I needed a copy of The Trail Drivers of Texas, he paused, but only for a few seconds. “Follow me,” he said, and we headed for his “elevator.” It was the old kind where the driver had to close two iron screens and then throw a lever forward. Under perfect conditions the rickety thing would move up to the 2nd floor at about 1 mile per hour. f”

    Now which one of these rides do searchers think will get you to the 10,200′ marker most safely? I think the two iron screens and throw the throttle forward might be a hint…?

    Heck, even an 80 year old could do it too?

    TT

    • This year I’m taking my time taking pictures and enjoying myself. I heard there’s museums in Cody so I’m going on a trip to go see them and maybe it’ll make sense of some things ive learned.
      I’m keeping in mind that early spring the roads are bogged and wet. I saw alot of ruined roads last year, I doubt a sedan got down some spots.

  52. It was the old kind where the driver had to close two iron screens and then throw a lever forward. Under perfect conditions the rickety thing would move up to the 2nd floor at about 1 mile per hour. f”

    Smarten up, who drives an elevator? An Engineer, an Architect or ?

    TT

      • Ruben, the elevator operator is a professional pdenver, however I fear he is making buggy whips, and soon the horseless carriage will be invented and we no longer need him to find our way… Somehow after the TC is found, I will be forced to play a lot more golf and ski a lot more at Santa Fe Ski BASIN…I like skiing in the mornings and playing the Links at Marty Sanchez Golf Course in the afternoon in my shorts, I have been told I have nice legs, so If I can’t hike the Sangre De Christos or San Juans how else can an old guy keep in shape?

        You too are a professional searcher/researcher, with insight and I am amazed at your resourcefulness, keep doing what you love for as long as you can and go take a friend to the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, it is awesome… PS read the Scrapbook called Olden Wood, SC Book 241 and tell me if it relates to SC Book 211?

        TT

        • Hello Tom Terrific. I’m not sure if I would consider myself a professional searcher/researcher, but I thank you for your kind words. I went back and reread scrapbooks 211 and 241 to see the relationship between the two, and I’m not sure if I’m seeing what you may be. I see the crosses in one, while the other, two sentences might hint to the other:

          “Maybe the gods were telling me to pay more attention to things that were happening in my life, and be more in charge.”

          “But for now, I’m going out and thank that great box elder for giving me inspiration.”

          The two scrapbooks brings me to TTOTC book where he mentions (paraphrasing) thanking Thor.

          How do you see the two relate?

          • pdenver, did you notice that the “box elder tree” that ff crushed his mirror housing on while “fiddling with the radio trying to find Meryl Haggard singing Me and Bobby Mcgee.

            Everything was going great until I hit an awkward looking box elder tree. It was in front of the bunk house where Shiloh lives. There was a loud careening noise that resonated around the inside of my car, and parts of something were flying through the air.”

            So why mention Shiloh’s bunkhouse? Seems like funny things happen in ff’s writings when he misspells words, like Meryl? Or when it rains? Now “Meryl Streep”, who received an academy award for “Bridges of Madison County” and opposite Robert Redford in “Out of Africa”, but “The River Wild” filmed near Glacier Nat’l Park was a true Montana thriller, there is always something deeper when you dig into Forrest Fenn’s words, they, his words hide many things in plain sight, yet your first impression may miss, often it’s your third definition, third picture or thought that will resonate in your brain, a sublime, simple yet clever devil, he is. Did you notice the leaf ff stole from the White House Lawn in SC Book 213, it is from a Maple tree, Box Elder is also a Maple Tree, why would you steal a Maple Leaf from the White House Lawn? Somehow I feel there is a connection between a family tree and a dead president, I cannot prove it yet, but feelings are strong in that direction pdenver.

            “Then I place each each inside the cover of a book to dry out and wait for some smiling face to find it in the far-distant future.

            You should do that too. It’s a way to leave your mark on history and someday cause a smile. Please don’t underestimate your importance. What fun it would be to find an old book with a leaf that George Washington had signed.f

            Did you notice that Grandson Shiloh Old and David Old company name was also the name of SC Book 241 Olden Wood, coincidence? Now who was was wounded at the battle of Shiloh in the civil war? He served under US Grant and also became POTUS.

            I do not make this stuff up.

            TT

          • Excellent discoveries, Tom Terrific. I thought they were quite interesting. I do concur that the words Mr. Fenn posts may not necessarily be as simple as they appear to be, unless he wants to stir the “Hornet’s Nest”. I noticed the “Nest” mentioned in the research I did about the Battle of Shiloh. Was it Hayes you suggest? I had a bit of difficulty with that one. Meryl Streep’s movie location is quite interesting. “Branches/Fork” could be a possible connection to your thought with the Maple leaf and White House, but more towards the leaf. Mr. Fenn’s grandson, Shiloh, may be a possibly suggestion to a “branch/leaf” in the family tree. Or, the “root” for Bitterroot. In TTOTC book, we should remember how Mr. and Mrs. Fenn would come across a “fork” in the road, they would always take it together (paraphrasing). With your thoughts to the connections you’re making, have you found Wwwh?

  53. Seeker- if you are at the bottom of the canyon -where one body of water meet up with another and you turn- in a western direction you are still at below hob – you will below hob till you get to hob…

  54. Dal, rumors abound that Forrest said there would be big surprises this year but I have yet to find any interview or writing from Forrest where he says this. Is this hearsay/rumor or do you know where to find this quote from Forrest? Your blog seems a credible source for direct quotes from Forrest so hoping you can share the true source with context of this quote.

    Wishing all searchers safety this year! Hope Forrest and Peggy are well.

    • Dal, so many posts that I thought you might not see the question so many are asking. Can you help the community out with the direct quote from Forrest about big surprises?

      To all, happy hump day! Make today count.

      • IFH-
        Let me ask you this…
        What difference to finding the chest does it make if there is a big surprise this year…or not…?
        In my opinion this is a pointless distraction…

        My goal is finding the chest…not in caring what “big surprise” might be coming up in the future…
        Every day that I wake up is a big surprise to me…

        You won’t get any smarter by worrying about Forrest’s big surprise but you might get richer if you concern yourself with finding Forrest’s chest…

        If you want too know the answer to that question look around…the answer is right here on this blog…and with some serious reading you will discover where he made that statement…but I am not focused on helping searchers with distractions..

        • Awesome, thank you Dal!

          Every day I wake up is a big surprise too :-). That’s why I’m trying to make every day count. I’m counting an extra day soon…leap year and all.

          Now, back to the poem vs. all these distractions.

  55. Hi everybody,
    I haven’t posted much or even kept up too well lately. I couldn’t sleep, so my brain starts to thinking about the poem again. (Queue Hotel California song now. “You can check out ant time you want, but you can never leave.”)

    It seems to me or IMO, Forrest has hinted that the chest is hidden in a hole in the ground with a paver type stone over the opening. My “solution” has always been solely poem based – both the general understanding of the words must fit the solution, AND alternate definitions of the words must also fit which will give very specific directions.

    With that said, I just looked up quest for alternate meanings. I just found that a synonym for quest is quarry. A definition for quarry is a place or pit from which stone or other materials are extracted. So finally, “Look quickly down your quest to cease” could be telling us to look immediately down and that the chest is in fact in a pit. “But tarry scant could then be saying – but blackish scant stone (or paver type stone) with marvel gaze ( or but look at the paver and go in pit or hole).

    Just thought I would share. Feel free to comment, but please be kind if you disagree. I have learned I have very thin skin when comments aren’t very nice.

    • JBL – Thanks for this information. I never knew that about the word quest. This is a great post with new information that’s actually potentially relevant. I know what you mean. I’ve tried to offer different perspectives in the past – new takes on “meek” and how the chest might be hidden, etc. and I’ve been told I need a new solve or I get a sarcastic “good luck with that” type response. It’s usually from people who post 15 times a day. If I see a poster’s name too many times, I just scroll past and ignore them. If people are talking all the time, they usually have nothing to say. You have to scroll past all that nonsense to find a little nugget of interest like yours.

      • Thank you! Most of the time people are very nice, but when I get responses like you described, I tend to fade into the woodwork. Humm, so if I got bolder, could that make me “brave and in the wood”? Sorry, couldn’t resist.

    • JBL,

      This interests me because of something I’ve come across in my findings. Thanks

      WarLock62, I tend to be the same way when looking at the blog.

      Good luck to you both,
      Bur

    • JBL;

      I have had the same thoughts for a long while. I did not know that quest = quarry – GOOD FIND!!! YEA for you!!! – 🙂 JDA

    • JBL, I’ll go another step into your thought quest, queue Ebenezer Scrooge movie with hooded figure and a bone finger pointing, most people probably know that a “scant” is a stone that is “finished” on two sides, either naturally or by hand, in the day, we would use them for head stones to mark a grave, so much so, that the word scant stone was interchangeable with head stone. Another synonym for head stone and scant stone, is “Monument” the word also was used literally for “head stone”, and what do people do at Monuments, they gaze in wonder at nation’s monuments… they marvel at them.

      so turn your scant up proper and place it at the “head” of your pit… place hooded figure near by pointing, and there you have it, grave in one of our national Parks… 🙂 (don’t dig up a grave) not like ff wants to use a “used” one.

      • I have thought that too about the grave stone. I am reminded of the fallen grave markers in “My War for Me”. I just could never find anything about a hole in the poem until now. I hadn’t thought about the term monument and gazing at a monument before, so thanks for that! Maybe Forrest has etched a message for the finder on the underside of the stone. (Now I’m really reaching.)

        • Wonder if he did write on the bottom that stone you’re talking about, like “Sorry I didn’t “bury“ the chest here” and below that it says “Gotcha” – lift the other stone.”

          Bur

      • BTW, I’m not going searching in a national park. I’ll visit them while on my search trip, but never searching there. No plans to visit my search area this year either. I had decided I was done with BOTG, but I may change my mind with this revelation.

  56. Seeker, from above.

    Your asking what is a location clue and what is a direction clue. And how close are clues together.

    I for one have found that “wwwh” is a location and “take it in the canyon down” a direction, but canyon down has a starting point – a location, and not far but to far to walk is the distance that one will travel on the canyon down trail, for this clue. HoB is a location. Now all three of these – wwwh, canyon down starting point, and hoB are in the same area. If I was to put a distance between them, I would put 500’ or under, and their location points are like a shape of a triangle.

    After taking the canyon down distance you come to the “put in point” a location, and it is below the elevation of hoB in the beginning area. Npftm is just describing the “put in” off beaten trail and “the end is ever drawin nigh” is telling you that the trail you’re on curves to the left as you head towards the end of the search, so this is a direction. Npuyc – “up” in this clue is telling the direction the creek is going along with yourself, and this creek that you come across is also another location point. Heavy loads would also be a location point along with water high. The blaze (even tho I’m not sure what or where it is) would be a location point and “look quickly down” a direction. All of these clues here are in the same area and I will say the distance from the “put in point” to the “water high point” (as the crow flies) is approximately 700’. So with that said if at the “put in point” you are within 500’ of the chest then the blaze is below water high at least 200’ somewhere is my guess. Since I believe that heavy loads is the 200’ mark if you were to draw a 500’ circle at the “put in point”, and 200’ circle at the “heavy loads point”, and where they intersect and make a X is the area one should concentrate on for the blaze and indulgence imo.

    Ok Seeker, that’s all I got for now.
    Hope you’re finding answers for your questions. Looking forward to your discription to your search area one day.

    Bur

    • Bur;

      You paint a good picture. Are you related to Focused? Just kidding. It is easy to see how your “places” align. Quite similar to mine, I might add – 🙂 JDA

      • Thanks JDA,
        Focused is much more talented then myself. Also when you know the area it easy to describe, but it’s hard not to give out details, at least yet.

        Bur

    • Bur, you have what appears to be about a 500′ walk, (maybe 1500′ at most?) walk from where ff parked if parking at any of the points in your description it would appear is that correct? why in the world would he make two trips from his car? those distances are so short that no one would decide to break up the load between two backpacks worth? even if they decide this, it would take less than one hr to finish both trips even if walking at half speed? those distances don’t correspond to what ff has implied in several of his ATFs if that is corresponding to your description?

      • Writis,

        Nope not correct on the distance. From wwwh to just the put in spot is appr 1.4 miles. Guess you haven’t caught any of my other post when I discussed the distances in my solves areas.
        “Canyon down” the longest distance between clue point to clue pointing it.

        But thanks for asking.
        Bur

      • 42 lbs is pretty heavy for an 80 year old man. Consider it is probably off trail as well. Even if it is only 500 feet I don’t see it as a bad decision to break it up into two hikes. Why put an old body through the stress when it is easier to carry half the weight at a time?

      • @Writis – above you asked “why in the world would he make two trips from his car?”

        I think you are too caught up on the weight of the chest and its contents to remember just how profound of a moment this was for FF. You’ve been at this long enough to know the backstory.

        Not trying to be hypercritical, I just think people are quick to forget how momentous of an occassion this was. Besides the chest and all of its contents, things which took FF a lifetime to collect, he was saying goodbye to a place that was dear to him.

        I wouldn’t question the man even if he carried each item in one at a time.

        • yes I’ve been at it long enough to know that the only reason he made two trips was the weight ~42lbs over the length of the hike, importantly because this is what he said, rather than any other reason (profoundly or otherwise). He also said he felt “lucky” that no one else was around at the time of the deed, (meaning he was not lolly gagging around pushing his luck on that front)

          obviously making one trip has a lot more chance of success on that front (being alone for the hike) so the real reason is fairly clear. The distance becomes the deciding factor, and is pretty apparent.

          It is a mistake to have ff “walk a mile in our shoes”, rather than the other way around. Creating a slowing or savoring moment where there was no mention of one is tying our shoes tightly on to someone else.

  57. Here’s a fresh topic (for me at least): How much information do we know about Forrest’s little sister June?

    For starters, this link to her obituary gives the basic details: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159521118/june-gay-heath
    To me, it sounds like she basically stayed living in Texas her whole life, while Skippy and Forrest ventured off to new locations?

    From the book TTOTC, Forrest notes her as being the pet of the family who gravitated towards spending much of her time with her mother, Lily. A captioned photo notes that she did play “Billy the Kid” with Forrest at least once. In SB235, Forrest mentions that she liked cats and took care of Forrest’s adopted half-bobcat Bobby McGee.

    From the Mysterious Writings question dated 7/3/2014, Forrest mentions that they weren’t very close (geographically or philosophically), but he did “support her for years” (assuming he meant financially), and noted that she was the last member of Forrest’s nuclear family to pass away leaving Forrest as the “last living member of my family”.

    Beyond that, I feel like that’s about the extent of what I’ve read about June. She seems like a bit of a mysterious figure compared to her brothers. Is there anything else interesting about June that anyone’s come across? Just curious.

    • Your fresh topic seems kinda creepy to me Blex and I don’t think this type of thinking will help find the treasure.

      • Jake – I didn’t say anything about this helping to find the treasure. Like I said, I was just curious. Forrest has shared a lot of stories about his father and Skippy, and some fewer about his mother, but there’s next to nothing mentioned about June. I was beginning to think that there may have been something I missed. Anyways, thanks for your insight.

      • Geezuus, Jake,

        Why did you go to creepvilles on Blex”s comment.
        June never got paddled?
        How about “wood”… what “degree” of creepy would you think about those two parts of the poem? 1 – 5 -15?

    • I thought it’s interesting that she was married to Forrest’ friend Donnie. I thought I read somewhere that her and Donnie had moved to California also. I could be wrong though.

      • Aaron – Yeah, I feel like I learned that fact about June marrying Donnie really late and I remembered it surprised me. I think someone else on the blog commented something about it earlier, and I was like “Wait, what? June married Donnie? Forrest’s friend who went on the Lewis & Clark expedition?! WOW!” It makes me wonder if Donnie & June would sometimes join Forrest & Peggy on fishing trips or visit them at their gallery once it was opened.

    • Blex, you asked about June Fenn…
      Quote from Forrest about his sister on mysterious writings:

      http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

      “ Question posted 7/3/2014:

      Dear Forrest, Is it true your sister, June, married your friend Donny? Were you resentful of June taking the “spotlight” from you by being the youngest and only girl and then marrying your best friend? (If that is true). ~Jmbguidy

      What spotlight is that about which you speak JM?

      My sister did marry Donnie and it was almost as big a surprise to me as it was when I learned they were divorcing. I was on the periphery of all that by then because I was trying to survive being a private in the Air Force. I was never close to my sister in later years. Part of it was geography but we were philosophically opposite. She was a sugar and honey liberal and I’m a trying to recover salt and pepper conservative. I supported June for a few years and looking back on it now I realize that I could have been a better brother. When she died I became the last living member of my family.f“

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