Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Four


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604 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Four

  1. @Aaron, what’s even stranger about Donnie Heath is that Donnie’s place of burial is listed as “unknown”

    Strikes me as odd that Forrest wouldn’t know where his old best friend and brother-in-law is buried. Right??

    • That is a little odd. It’s possible too I suppose that whoever contributed this info just didn’t know where he was buried .

    • 42 – June’s grave was also marked as “unknown” on the same site. I’m guessing that’s just the website’s default entry if no one uploads the information.

    • I have ya thought…ya’ll mentioned clues along with intersecting lines etc, 200ft away and so on..
      …has anyone brought forth a solve that begins their hunt on foot after “no place for the meek?”
      Basically everything before that phrase is only where to begin? Meaning ya can’t do it fom the safety of your couch?

      I know it is bad punctuation with the quote mark after the ? Mark….please dont kill me Dal!

      • Mike K

        I’m trying to understand you correctly…
        Are you saying we might physically start at; “from there it’s not place for the meek”?

        IF so, how do you see “Put in below the home of Brown”;
        Is it the same place as WWsH? [kinda like a house to a garage, idea]
        Is hoB actually WWsH?
        I mean, there’s a canyon in there somewhere.. and some kinda distance we are told is too far to walk.
        But it would be funny IF WWsH is nailed down by deciphering the possibility, it could be know of, by what hoB is, and not two separate places. That would make WWsH the place to “put in” the canyon and the canyon is “…no place for the meek”

        Yeah, umm,.. I’m not sure what your saying… could you clarify?

      • Mike,

        That’s what I always thought. Your armchair hunt is up to”;” After that you need to put BOTG.
        IMO, Forrest uses the semi-colon with exact this purpose in mind.

  2. Was he cremated and did Forrest scatter his ashes at his special place? He helped Olga out in that regard.

  3. Not that unusual. I don’t know where some (thankfully, small number) of my friends are buried, and I’m not nearly 80-x years old. Quoting Freud, “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

  4. Donnie and June were divorced and possibly on poor terms. Donnie may have been persona non grata with the Fenn’s after the divorce. The link says he was buried in Hawaii.

  5. True story, all of it. A few years ago I was launching estes rockets with my son. We had gotten pretty good at getting the angle of our launch so the rocket would come back to us with the wind. We checked a nearby flag and let her rip. Up, up it went, 2400 feet. The chute popped and down it started to come. but to our surprise it started heading away from us. I checked the flag again it it all did not make sense. It was going against the wind, away from us and headed for the graveyard. We set our feet to moving and and headed in there. As we ran I told my son, wouldn’t it be cool it this rocket was picking my spot. When we found it, it was sitting nicely in a wide space between two headstones under a little tree. As we came up on it, I said this is it. This is my spot. Make it so son. How, he said. Any way you see fit I replied. When my time comes put me there. We picked up the rocket and I glanced at one of the markers. It said baby showalter. We started walking away and I said wait a minute, I wanna see whos on the other side of me. I walked over, looked down. Brown is all it said. g

  6. But,
    Maybe the 200 footers weren’t on the trail at all.
    Maybe they were above it. As in altitude.
    Pg 62 TTOTC, ” that little stream got narrower and narrower and deeper and deeper until it developed vertical sides…….”

    • No problem Eaglesbound,

      I’m looking at this through my solve area and the put in place is where you go into the mountain. And it has vertical walls, kind of, in that area. So it’s one way in and out basically unless your a mountain climber. Didn’t Forrest say something like there is only one way to his his special place (not a direct quote). To be above this area i’m at would be like 700’.

      But in all fairness you could be right in some other solve area.

      Thanks for the reply,

  7. The ATF says “The treasure is waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot…”. I don’t know that it is literally down to the exact coordinates, but the crossing of the lines should get you to where you can find the chest. If those who got to within 500 & 200 feet only solved the first two clues, I assume they didn’t make all the lines cross, so if you start adding lines correctly, my best guess is closer than 200 feet.

    • That would be sweet. My issue is there’s a holotta poem left after where my lines cross. Maybe the rest is for narrowin down that 200 foot.

      • smokeybaer,

        The only lines I have used in my area of searching is circles at what I consider the 500’ point and the 200’ point. Where they intersecting will be my area of concentration next time I go out.

        So smokeybaer, if you have all clues solved try that point or intersection and see where it puts you.

        Good luck,

  8. I just trashed about 20 comments on this new page. Mostly because folks did not cite their Forrest Fenn quotes. If you quote Forrest or if you say that he said something, you should add where it was that he said that…preferably with a link to the source.

    If you are too lazy to cite the quote, your comment will be trashed…
    When a comment is trashed all the comments associated with that comment also get trashed…so entire threads go away…

    Think of the person who is reading what you are writing. They should have access to the quote so they can see for themselves:
    1. That the quote is accurate
    2. That the context is accurate
    3. That you are credible
    4. That you are not starting or perpetuating a rumor

    Follow the rules…

    • Hmmm….seems some of mine went bye-bye. Sorry for not citing ver batim per the rules. Can you send me the transcript of the lost thread as some of the opinions were making sense, or restore them so that we can add a reply with the actual quote/source cited?

    • Thanks Dal. I wanted to ask about a quote in that thread but then realized I should be able to find it in that great web page full of quotes that somebody compiled. Unfortunately lost the link to that web page.

      Could somebody please provide a link to the great quote resource page? I apologize for not having that already bookmarked. After all these years I think I’ve memorized all the quotes, but I do miss the odd interview and article.

  9. My post (which didn’t quote Forrest) was only meant to dispute the idea that the searchers who got as close as 200′ from the treasure had solved four clues. They had not. And actually, there is no ~explicit~ evidence that they had solved any clues at all, though I think one of Forrest’s statements (quoted below, with link) make it abundantly clear to me that they had solved exactly two clues.

    In any case, the first searchers to solve two clues did so years before the following quote from Forrest — which is the ONLY one in which he mentions even the possibility of four clues having been solved:

    Forrest Gets Mail #9 (11/2/2015) on this site: “Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?”

    FF: “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”
    Link: https://dalneitzel.com/2015/11/02/forrest-gets-mail-9/

    The 200-footers (“couple hundred feet”) achieved that at least as early as August 2013 (think about that for a moment: 6 1/2 years ago!), but I think Julius Brighton’s video of Dallas Campbell and Forrest lays to rest any hypothesis that the 200-footers just got lucky and wandered that close without solving any clues:


    6:23 minute mark Forrest says: “There have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

    • Zap, what does that say to you? Just curious. To me, that searchers can still get the first two clues, walk past the 3rd and 4th. Meaning, their path might be correct but they just didn’t figure the BoTG clues out. They still could have been there at the clues, but just didn’t know the significance. And, walking their path, they passed everything else up also. They could have very well been on the correct path, passed all the clues, but didn’t recognize or didn’t understand the reference of a clue. Or just could not recognize a clue.
      Or, and a big OR, maybe they were looking for other signs that they thought would be clues and didn’t find any. When actually, they were on the right path, but didn’t know what a clue even was.
      A thought:
      The poem solve gives an “x” on a map. And I’m speaking from a bias point of view, that solving the poem doesn’t have anything to do with all the clues. It’s not the clues that need to be solved. Some would need to have answers, from the poem, but not all. It really doesn’t matter what a clue is, the most important thing is to find that spot and go to it. Along the way will be signs of clues that could be referenced from the poem. Probably entirely different lines then the ones used to find the spot. The nine clues come into play when out in the field. Along one’s path, certain things will stand out, and those things will be referenced in the poem. These are the 9 clues.
      Most of the ATF’s about clues that f talks about use the words: find, follow, learn, etc… I think it’s only once or twice does he refer to using the word “solve”.
      This opinion is from a bias set of eyes, and I claim to know nothing, so I’m not saying what is right or wrong, and that’s where a lot of chase info is, we all just don’t know. But, it sure would be nice to have something concrete to agree on. Don’t think with all the alphas here that would be possible, but nice to think may happen some day. Maybe finally 1,000 years from now.
      Also lastly, would like to point out that when f does make these comments about these topics, that he is not only using “e-mail” as the source of his communication. We should not assume it’s only contact with e-mail, that he does look at the blogs, and other sources of comments from searchers. We could be commenting and posting to each other to only come to find out that f does get some info from our posts. That could also be a reason why someone may have 4 but he doesn’t know. We may talk about the 4th clue on this site, but he hasn’t read the correct answer to that 4th clue as of yet. (this is also bias, as I see the blaze as the 4th clue). So I’ll just say, all IMO.

    • Zap,

      2 Clues or no clues solved to get to the 200’ spot is how some might understand Forrest comment because it’s not specific enough. My point is he might have been referring to the people at the 500’ spot that solved the 2 clues, as he has in other quotes. For me even if those 200’ people did solve only 2 clues how is it that 500’ people solved two clues but were only at 500’ and went by the other clues. To me to get to the 200’ spot you had to at least “put in” at the put in place (one clue more) and most likely get to npuyc spot a possible 200’ spot (another clue) or up to heavy loads maybe the 200’ spot (yet another clue). So I find it hard for those first 200’ people to not recognize at least one or two of those clues and not pursuing more on that path their on. Were the 200’ people there only by chance? That’s why I believe they also had solves that took them father down that canyon down just like the 500’ people must have. Of course this all IMO.

      I thought this website was to give opinions on what you think but it seems comments get trashed for doing that or making a misquote that others know what your saying. I for one try sometimes to say “not a quote” after saying something that looks like a quote but that must not matter.

      So Zap thanks for your comments above and quotes. We all have different ideas in this chase and some even make sense.

      Good luck,

    • Hi Zaps – pretty sure i’m the person that Dal enjoys moderating the most around here, so please don’t attempt to steal my thunder darn it!!

      albeit i’ll admit that rumours aren’t entirely precise nor constructive, i could also accurately say the same of ‘speculation, conjecture, deduction and best guessing’ which also seems to encompass a large multitude of comments historically, and can go so far to say is def the basis and construct for all/any ToTC websites including this one ..especially given the obvious zero results of said treasure found to date imho. Suffice to say that any rumour (re: WWWH being thermal etc) was observed by me on another media format and made by longstanding & well-known searchers within this community – but is easier to just shoot the messenger and bury heads in sands, as per (modern media) protocol i s’pose – no surprises there

      re: the 200/500ft conundrum – i have a valid theory on that..

      whence happily wandering along Tower Creek on a well trodden ‘not in very close proximity’ human trail, i noticed another fishing trail which also hand-railed the other side of said creek, so i speculated, deducted or best-guessed that ff’s 200/500ft admission possibly means there exists two trails close (but not in VERY close proximity) to the TC

      re: ‘They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.’ (lazily paraphrasing here) seems to suggest two points of interest;

      1) the clues are NOT consecutively easier from the searchers perspective
      2) that clue #3 is the trickier clue, as suggested by the LGFI comment
      3) the riddle may take the searcher in a circle – “..arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time” and also the ‘talking in circles’ thing – wait, i gotta wade through my data to find the EXACT source.. trying to find it ..wait a second

      ..oh, here it isBANNED!!

      • Curious Hobbit, your thoughts about there being 2 trails in close but NOT VERY CLOSE proximaty to the possibly off-trail TC, and the riddle taking the searcher in a circle (IMO a circular route possilbly covering several miles), echoes thoughts I have had for some time. If clue #3 ia the trickier clue than #2, why couldn’t a searcher or searchers–if they interpreted #3 the wrong way, end up on a different trail that makes a very wide circular detour from FF’s intended rout, walk 2 miles or more, and then because the trail was more or less circular, end up close enough to the TC (without knowing it) to go off trail and still end up so close to the TC’s location?
        The quote from TS Eliot that was quoted by Forrest on MW is here:

        I’d have to find the other one. More comments to come when I have time!

        • librarylady,
          Pretty sure that’s an imposter/troll. The actual curious hobbit probably couldn’t even read that post without falling asleep halfway through.

        • librarylady

          i didn’t mean to suggest that searchers mis-interpreted clue #3, but rather failed to recognise it completely. In fact i’ll go as far as to speculate that searchers may have solved the first two clues but not realised how to marry them correctly to the poem.. therefore missing HoB completely..

          re: ” That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem”

          “Dear Emily, Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f” (sorry for no sources, just quoting my notes)

          also, assuming HoB is actually clue3, the entirety of Forests response to the MW LGFI question also included a sentence that seems to be seldom touched upon on any TTOTC formats imho

          re: “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun”

          ..which suggests, in my wonkily deductive way of thinking, that clue3 absolutely requires BOTG – being that it’s the whole under-lying philosophy of hiding the TC from day one ..and also hugely reduces the chances of foreign up-starts like me (and Voxpops) from obtaining a relevant solve from halfway across either oceans

          food for thought maybe

        • JW – not sure what the heck happened to me Emoji previously, but i can honestly assure you that, having read through half of you comm..zzzzzzzzz

  10. I’ve been thinking a lot about the “may have solved the first four clues” comment.

    That is all. Carry on.

  11. Speaking of smells, what is an odds and ends, I know for sure that ENDS means opine and we all have ends, opinions and sometimes they smell, D.

    Well, we shall see how long that lasts here, and while we are out on a limb, a ledge, lege of speaking of knowlege, why not see the use of words as our impressions? I mean my impression after the “Lure” interview was that perhaps as many as 4 clues were solved but not necessarily in the correct order?


    Do I get the ax or the Guitollene for this one?

    • Hey Tom… while you are waiting for the decision… you could check out the difference between a Maple leaf and an Oak leaf. Or not…

      • From “Seventeen Dollars a Square Inch,” and Scrapbook 177; a quadplet:

        “Mighty oaks from little acorns slowly grow
        Then finally fell and wisp to naught,
        But those who plant a seed of words
        Live on in groves of human thought. f”

      • Ken, well I have grown both, in Virginia and New Mexico, and it sure appears to be a Maple, but the point is not wheather it a maple or oak it is why does he emphasize the place where it came from? The White House Lawn? Both Oak and Maple grow in the White House lawn?

        Does Forrest hid something behind that Maple or Oak Leaf? Perhaps a family tree comes into view?


        • Why emphasize a BOX ELDER in front of SHILOH”S bunkhouse?

          I do know for a fact that in the Civil War battle of Shiloh a famous president served under another famous POTUS, look at the Olden Wood Chest in SC Book 241 https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/24/scrapbook-two_hundred-forty-one/

          Do a right-click SAVE AS and download, then enlarge and tell me who’s the President on that Coin? US GRANT, who served and was wounded at Shiloh? Another dead president… Why are the coins worth $3500 on that date he posted this? TT’s video had exactly 3500 views on November 24, 2019, coincidences come into mind but that seems suspicious.


        • Hello Tom Terrific. Is it the Maple leaf we are to pay attention to, or where the White House is located? I believe we’ve heard about the stories of George Washington, as well as, the story of Mr. Fenn covering his eye with his thumb over Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (1600 “Pennsylvania” Ave. NW ?). I think there could be a number of random thoughts, but there is only one person who knows for sure if there was anything more to that particular scrapbook with the pamphlet/book and leaf.

          • Can’t forget the Liberty Bell, with all the mentions of bells over the years. Freedom…peace. (Paraphrased) “We should leave each other alone.”

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • pdenver, words are seldom expressed by ff for a random purpose, his thoughts when put into words, or pictures have a profound meaning, as always IMO, sometimes if you take what Forrest said about “Important Literature, page 9 on face value you may come away with the sense that ff used that chapter to show how scoffingly we sometimes refer to some great literary works as sub-par? Now why  do you think the message of these great literary works were described by him that way?
            Well he risked his life for the cause of sworn patrisiom?  Which has its home in Philidelphia, it does not seem to be out of the question that he had doubts about patriotism? I know when I was president of the XGI fraternity in Albuquerque in the late 1960s we bacame known as THE BABY KILLERS, it was sad…     T T

          • Hello Tom Terrific. I do believe there is something to the “Important Literature” chapter, yet I’m not sure if I’ve grabbed it’s true meaning. I know there are books that have switched it’s true storyline. For example, one is mentioned which deals with the love of a nurse, yet the other is about blowing up a bridge, but the titles are switched. Mr. Fenn gave his opinion about them, which gave him belief he could write a book himself. The couple times or so reading “Catcher in the Rye,” I still found myself not caring too much for it. When I think of those authors, I wonder if they’re considered masters in their field. I don’t have TTOTC book in front of me, so I’m trying to go by memory.

            As for Mr. Fenn and patriotism, I find it a bit hard to believe he had doubt in what he did and honored/obeyed to serve. He may not have liked some of his missions, but he was there to do so. I think he’s True Blue, Tom Terrific.

    • Hello Tom Terrific. I think what really fascinated me about this video when I first heard it was when he mentioned about not being told the clues in the right order (paraphrased). I’ve asked myself how this could be, especially if the clues are contiguous to my understanding.

      • pd, I hope your do not mind my shortening your moniker, but your comment is spot on, now think of the Time Frame of this, it was in May of 2017, I had emailed ff in 2012, and had several conversations, not all were pleasant, but necessary, then I produced Winter Thoughts on March 07, 2017 and exactly 5 days later SC Book 169 was posted by ff, a CHURCH BINGO? Now I am not imagining that there is any lead searcher, and if there was he has already dispelled any rumors recently to Cynthia, Kpro and Cowlazers, but it seemed odd that SC 171, and 172 were both about Bells, train and Mission Bells, some broken in hate and some rang with arrivals of Eric Sloane’s gift to ff, I had spoken of where WWWH came from but now I see it has been repurposed for a lesson in Spirit, like God and Country, look closely at the three Spanish Crosses in Olden Wood, AKA Cruces is Crosses, and where is Aldo Leopold’s National Forest Management? Carson, and directly in the middle is Cruces Wilderness Basin, all of the south bank of what Famous Canyon of a scenic view is that? Riches new and old, Toltec is golden. They were the most famous Architects in MesoAmerica. Coincidence is a funny animal PD.


        • This is interesting, Tom Terrific. I can see how you’ve made the connection as you did. When I think of bells, I think of the “sounds” they resonate. We’ve heard plenty about echoes/mirrors over the years. I’d like to consider that a sound is also a long narrow inlet/strait, and an inlet is a bay. Just going with different possibilities. With Scrapbook 169, different things came to mind. Sure, church have bells, but I think it was the coin Mr. Fenn had to play bingo with. Another I had wondered about is how he would have gotten home once he visited Mrs. Fenn (while dating) when he only had said amount of money on him. Hitchhiking with his “thumb”? Again, just different things that made me wonder.

    • Hi Tom,

      Forrest said that he is not certain that searchers that were very close to TC (500 feet or less) solver clues #3 and 4. But it looks like that they had solved clues #1-2. After these 2 clues they “left the poem” and were trying to “play roulette” i.e. just chaotically walking in any directions where they think Forrest could walk to hide TC. Even if they had solved hoB (my variant) they had huge area to walk – need many years to found TC without solving next clue.
      I think that they never send Forrest their solution for hoB. Because if they had such solution they will never left this area. They will return to this area many times (like JDA) and finally found all other clues.
      BTW, Tom when you release your Winter Thoughts 2.0 (or 2020 this time)? Winter is almost over and spring is coming.
      I like to read what other searchers think about the Chase. Your Winter Thoughts 2017 was interesting but I have one rule: never go to places that other searchers have revealed as “right spots”. Because my spot is really “right spot” 🙂

      • YUP – YUP, I keep returning to the same general area. Like a bull’s eye (in the wood haha) a keep zeroin’ in on the target (I hope) 🙂 JDA

      • Andy S ~ *Because my spot is really “right spot” *

        How can you be certain?
        The question I ask is not really about your personal ‘spot’ as much as, how can anyone be certain?

        We have been told to nail down the first clue or stay home… yet… even when that was done, things still went haywire, with searcher not really knowing they solved the first clue { first two clues, even uncertain some solved the first four clues lol.. 1/2 the dang poem?? }.
        Is it because we don’t know something about the location of the clues?
        fenn warns the path will not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand.
        What gives us that certainty of the **location** to be searched?
        An entire state? That’s still a huge haystack to look for a needle.
        Is it just WWsH? That doesn’t seem to have help much.
        Is there something about the location [knowledge of it] that we might be overlooking-?- that important possibility nobody seems to have mentioned?

        I still find it funny { not you Andy, I get you were having fun } that folks can be so certain of there WWsH, even many searchers having the same idea to what the clue could refer to… yet they all seem to be searching in many different areas. How is that remotely “certain” of the location beforehand???

        • Hi Seeker! Long time no converse. 🙂
          I’m sure Andy S will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that comment was tongue-and-cheek. I love you! Always so serious. 😉

          Of course if I’m wrong, the tongue-and-cheek becomes more like egg-on-face. LOL!

        • Hi Seeker,

          When I go to my next BOTG I always have right spot. One reason is very simple – I need to persuade my wife that money that I’m going to spend on this BOTG is not a waste. When I return empty I usually say: “I was very close to TC just didn’t found the blaze. I will found it next time”. I hope she is not reading this blog 🙂
          What I bring from my BOTGs? Well, sometimes it’s ticks 🙂 But mostly it’s unforgettable memories about nice and beautiful places. I’m not avid searcher like Dal or JDA but I know one thing about myself – my imagination is enormous (but it’s definitely less that Forrest’s imagination).
          Like JDA now I have a general area – below the hoB. Other clues might be solved only on the ground (IMO).
          How many time I will have BOTG in this site? I don’t know – depends what I found there.

          • Just tell your wife you want her to have that nice big diamond in the chest… LOL, as Ron White says: that’ll shut her up.
            My wife keeps asking; “when are you going, I need a vacation too”? Only she looked into flights to FL. So I’ll need to find fenn’s chest… she’ll need a box to put all those seashells in she plans on bringing back.

          • seeker… perhaps you and the wife should swap destinations. You could go to Florida… and she could go to Montoming and take in the views. ha ha

          • Send the wife on vacation and pack your phone(tracking device) in Her luggage. The. Go treasure hunting, voila. Solve.

          • Definitely leave your wife a note if you ditch her on vacation to go treasure hunting though. That way your still being safe and stuff. Or maybe take a friend(fishing buddies, hunting pals, ect).

        • Seeker – IMHO, one who hasn’t found the treasure can only be certain enough to commit to going on a BOTG trip. That’s good enough for me!

  12. DISCLAIMER: The following post is my own interpretation/understanding of information related to the untitled poem written by Forrest Fenn in his “The Thrill of the Chase” book, the sharing of my own creative processes, or a combination of the two. Besides the book, a copy of the poem can be found at http://www.dalneitzel.com and various other online sources. Readers of this post are responsible for verifying for themselves the level of accuracy, context, and credibility of any materials I have cited and are cautioned not to rely solely upon any citation(s) or explanation(s) I have provided for any purpose(s) whatsoever. Online sources such as http://www.tarryscant.com and http://www.dalneitzel.com are recommended for such verification purposes. It is not my intent to start or perpetuate any rumor by posting this message, nor to misquote or fail to cite the appropriate source(s) of information being used in my post. When I feel the need to emphasize that a statement is my own interpretation, understanding, acknowledgment, or recognition of something already being discussed or presented, or is the compilation of my own uniquely individualized application of logical, analytical, inductive, conceptual, divergent, imaginative, inferential, intuitive, speculative, or any other type of thought processes, or any combination thereof, I will try to remember to attach IMO (In My Opinion) or IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) to same. In an effort to not only share information, but to also preserve same for future use, please do not respond directly to this post. If you would like to make comment, critique, or compliment regarding same, make your own post and specifically reference mine in same.

    Dang it…now I’m out of time and forgot what I was going to say anyways.

      • @JDA – To save Dal a lot of electronic storage space, kindly review my DISCLAIMER post timestamped as “February 28, 2020 at 9:35am” on his “Odds n Ends of Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…” section of the blog by the same name linked below:


        IMHO – I don’t always articulate my thoughts and ideas in the best of ways, but there is usually is a method to my madness that I understand in my own unique way.

        • I play by my own rules, so I’m going rogue and saying….Lol, Bow. You’re starting to get better at this.
          All you need now is Seeker’s spell checker.

          • LOL. I left out the “/” between “is” and “usually is”—-sometimes it’s not what you read between the lines that matters. 🙂

    • Bowmarc, you make a pretty good attorney disclaimer, are you sure you do not work for and Insurance Company? Well I did for 40 years and it sounds like a good beginning for Forrest to no longer worry about frivolous lawsuits!


      • Not in insurance, TT. And I’m not worried about FF defending himself from a lawsuit—he has way more resources than me! LOL.

    • Awwww. Someone got his feelings hurt. Look at it from Dal’s perspective though. It’s like he’s supervising an enormous classroom filled with bratty children in their 50s, 60’s and 70’s. And his reward is that he gets crapped on, on a regular basis.

    • Hi, Bowmarc,

      I think and perceive like “ISO” about that not only yours
      but all the articles here are written “IMO” or without “IMO”.
      Does everyone who writes write all and complete truths?

      What, how much, for what, how, when and where he writes,
      that’s everyone’s own internal problem.

      Our writings and words;
      Like our eyes, it already tells us.

      In this context, your articles do not bother me.
      And I’m really sorry to forget what to write.

      I would like to read what you find worth writing.

      • Hello Ali. My posts are scattered throughout this website on different topics, on different dates, etc.

        You will have to look for my posts using my username of Bowmarc as the key search word.

        My most recent posts are occurring within the “The Nine Clues” category if you are interested in reading same.

  13. Dal (and any other seasoned searcher) – I have been busy reading the poem with “fresh” (bloodshot) eyes over and over and thinking and thinking in an effort to free my mind from my one and only WWH to give me a new perspective. IT”S NOT WORKING! LOL! I keep ending up back at the same place and I’m not even sure I’m 100% convinced I like it.

    How did you “free” your mind and move on to other options for all your different search areas….yoga, meditation, counting sheep, reading the dictionary, watching Dancing with the Stars? I’ll try anything at this point. 🙂

    • This website has many solves by many searchers. I would start reading several of them to try and “unstick” myself and gain the perspectives of others.

      Hope it helps!

      • Blueinred – have done that for sure, but actually sometimes I think it just muddies the waters more for me, but it can also, to your point, make me think in another direction.

    • GG-
      For me it was an easy progression. I started on Google in NM. When I actually set foot in the places that the poem led me I realized how “unspecial” each place really was…
      I am pretty certain I have a handle on what would qualify in terms of landscape and isolation as a “special” place…although I cannot begin to guess what his personal reasons might be for choosing the place.

      Additionally, since I started so early in the chase, many of the places I was led to early-on were eliminated by clues Forrest gave as the years rolled on…and I was forced to re-evaluate.

      I have always had more than one solution on my mind for a particular area…almost always starting at the same WWWH in that area…but several different solutions from my WWWH forward…and then eliminated possibilities as I got to the area and tried them out…

      I let my instincts help me along…but I must say…the blaze has always been my sticking point. I have NEVER had a blaze I truly believe Forrest would have selected…

      In my 70+ searches only twice did I ever have confidence…without confidence it is a lot easier to move on…

      • Wow, 70 searches. Kudos to you! I knew it was a lot, but not that many. And yes, the confidence thing. That is the hardest part for me to deal with. I was really confident with my first BOTG. It fit so well. So I was shocked when I didn’t find it! (Imagine that) Rookie searcher illusion 101: I’m going to find it on my first try. LOL! Now I question everything I go with which becomes the opposite problem.

        Thanks for some of your “seasoned” wisdom.

    • Write down on a piece of paper everything you can think of that line 5 could mean. When you have done that each of those will be a separate potential solve. Work the next line for each of these. At some point, some of these will turn into dead ends. When they do drop them and focus on the others. Eventually you’ll be left with just a few possible solves. Perhaps just one.

      • So methodically. That sounds like a good approach. I’m somewhat doing that now, but you have made some other good points. Thanks JoJo

    • Hello Geysergirl. If you’re able to, go BOTG and prove whether you’re right or wrong with your current thoughts. I’ve held onto mine over time and found it was hard to let go. One of my searches, I felt I was in the right area, but when Mr. Fenn stated if you’re searching in the desert, get a new solve (paraphrased), I had to start from scratch. If you believe you have the understanding of the nine clues, why not stick with your WWH?

      • pdenver – I have been only twice with BOTG and plan to do a few more searches using the same WWH. Like Dal mentioned above. Where you can interpret the clues in a few different ways. But maybe that’s what bothers me. That there actually are several ways to go that in their own right, follow the poem. I can’t even decide which one I think is best suited to the task. One area I know has been searched by a few, but the poem keeps taking me there. At least one of my interpretations does and apparently it did for them as well. And I have studied maps of this general area so many times, I don’t see any other way that makes sense to me. That said, these most likely failures is what is prompting me to begin searching for a new WWH.

        But to your point, I am sticking with my current WWH until these few solves prove otherwise for this search season. But in the back of my mind, I’m also anticipating the “wrong answer buzzer – ERTTTT” before I even get there! LOL! Thanks for your thoughts.

        • Here’s a thought.
          if someone is 200′ from the chest and they had the first 2 clues right, but went right passed the next 7 clues.
          So.. In other words.
          There’s the chest I’m 200′ from it. Got to that point from solving the first 2 clues properly. Doesn’t the next 7 clues have to be between me and the chest 200′ away.???

          • if that were true, then the 3rd and 4th clues must be the 2nd clue. since the closest is 200′ and someone may have 4. Not likely.

  14. I would like to propose a couple questions to all here at the hoD. Have you asked yourselves why Forrest hasn’t submitted any SB’s since 12-12-19, aside from the rescue SB 1-24-20. Forrest says, In his opinion there’s no such thing as a lead searcher. IMO, I think there is, and they post here. I think Forrest is very aware of who this may be. IMO, Forrest may think there’s no need to put out anymore subtle hints in SB’s. This is my opinion only, what’s yours? Please remember Forrests advice, We should wait for the snow to melt, and the mud to dry.

    • Hello Afana. Perhaps his keyboard was smoking again because of the plentiful scrapbooks he put out earlier. 🙂 It’s possible he’s just taking a break and I don’t think it’s due to a lead searcher being close. I’m sure there are plenty who would love to believe so.

        • pdenver – I agree with your opinion. And I remember Afana posting they weren’t going to post here anymore. Sometimes people change their mind. Like Forrest seems to have done, regarding posting his scrapbooks.

          I wonder what that ‘surprise’ is Forrest mentioned? Any ideas?

          • pdenver – That quote from Cynthia’s blog of the ‘surprise’ statement Forrest made to her on December 21, 2019:

            The Forrest quote is:

            “There are a lot of big surprises coming out next year.” (Since he said this in 2019, he obviously means 2020.)

          • Hello Lisa. I really don’t know what the big surprises may be. If I were to guess, I would think there is a possibility he wrote/published a book. Perhaps there are multiple interviews/publications coming. With the gentleman, anything is possible and we shall see in time.

      • Hi,
        in the face of the difficulty in poetry and
        the ambiguity of the target
        I understand that the minds are tired. IMO
        We can find the reflections of this
        in claims and beliefs such as favoritism and deception.

        If we don’t have faith and respect for poetry and the writer, wouldn’t we be anywhere else?

        If you follow the trace of paradoxes in the comments,
        there can be found plenty of sources of confusing.
        But I don’t think it’s in Chase or Writer. IMO

        How confident can we be that we have done everything about poem exactly?

        May it be easy for all of us.

    • Afana, I think you and pd are both correct, there is not a lead searcher, only someone who has perhaps had a general solve, not in the correct order, a bingo with 3 winners…for a genera location, but to actually marry all the clues geographically to the exact place on a map, within a few steps AKA in the correct order…well one must ask… How does Forrest describe himself among others in Santa Fe Art Colony, try SC Book 203:

      So where would a couple of ideas get married on a map in the mountains? One might take a look at his church, and since ff is a self-described here and compared to Eli Levin, it seems clear a spirit is in him ff said; ” He’s a New York Jewish Bohemian and I’m a recovering Texas Baptist. There was little reason for us to mix even though art made our paths cross on several occasions. Chapters in his book describe several such events.f”

      Since my mother was a staunch Texas Baptist and all that brings to the alter, I feel his connection to his spiritual upbringing is strong and perhaps controls much more of what he does and why he does it. “If a kid is raised up in THE WAY or PATHWAY, the “path” he should go, then as life passes he will not depart.” ff also IMO has described himself as a recovering conservative too.

      Mr D sometimes axes my comments so I hope you both get this. Carefully read the book in “Chaos’s” hand in SC209 https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/04/scrapbook-two_hundred-nine/

      What It is titled states “The Path O Memoirs and Happiness” Sam S…?…


      Everyone is looking for a Riddle, a message, this may be the path?

    • I don’t know about that, Forrests’ answer to the lead searcher situation was pretty direct. If someone was KNOWINGLY getting closer to the spot will not just give it up until the next search season. That’s nonsense. It serves a better purpose to ask, why those who have solved the first two clues or perhaps the first 3 or 4 clues, as well as those who have been within 500 or 200 feet didn’t know they did back then nor many many years later???

      • Oz10, a lot of light has been shown since 2010, so many comments and so little time to examine, that may be why we read others digestions of the hints and clues, a proper word for any searcher to ask is: What do I see from Forrest in his writings, AFT’s and body language that tells me, or someone else they might have a bingo, even if it gets split 3 ways.

        Look at the scrapbooks posted in the past 3 years Oz and which ones fulfill a narrative the proves he is recently acknowledging some excitement, that rapid-fire Mic Mic says that someone has a few things figured out, a general solution is not a winner yet, but you might see the location from there…and sunlight shines on it.


      • Oz10;

        You say: “If someone was KNOWINGLY getting closer to the spot will not just give it up until the next search season. ” How can you know what another searcher might think or do? How can you know the “Life conditions” of other searchers? There may be financial or health conditions that would keep a searcher from making a BotG search – no matter how close they feel they are to finding Indulgence.

        Experience has taught me that no matter how sure I am of a solve, it more than likely is not the CORRECT solve. Even if a searcher is SURE of his / her solve, there is always the chance that it will fail. Even if I am SURE, am I willing to borrow money to make a BotG trip feeling that I can pay it back as soon as I find the treasure – and then don’t?

        What if I have health issues, and must rely on others to search for me, and they have their own set of “life’s” problems that keep them away from a search?

        I can think of 101 reasons why a searcher might decide to wait until next search season, no matter how SURE they are of their solve – even if they KNOW they are close – JMO

        Sorry, I see too many flaws in your statement that: “If someone was KNOWINGLY getting closer to the spot will not just give it up until the next search season. ” JMO – JDA

      • True Oz10, why those people didn’t progress is the question, most likely they simply did not and most likely “could not” confirm that they had 2 clues correct.

        since it is supposed to be “easier” for subsequent clues, the more likely scenario, is they “could not” confirm the clues. (no way in the poem to confirm wwwh)

        (that is fairly scary, as that means full end to end solutions have to be tested with the reality of less than a few percent chance of them being correct)

        The way to look at it, imo is these people who were correct a long time ago, are in the same boat all the rest of us are in… we like our wwwh, but we have nothing to confirm/deny that possible wwwh.

        • Writis, you are correct and those two points are the ones to think about. The confirmation part of it, we just don’t know if there is a way to do so. We know that it is not a matter of trying but thinking and we were told the finder will be positive in attitude and deliberate in their actions, at the same time he/she may not know if they had the correct starting point until the chest is found. The second point is we were told the clues should get easier as we solve them. The issue with that one is that we don’t know exactly ‘when’ they get easier.

    • There cannot be any such thing as a lead searcher. There are two options here a searcher and a finder. This isn’t horseshoes.

      • Aaron, it seems that some one was inside 200′ in the past and emailed ff his area, I would say that that person was the lead searcher say in 2012 or 13? If many have been within 500′ but only two in 200′ circle, then the question to us is why so many were 500′ yet could not get to the place of 200′? Of course, I can see a good excuse for that, but some knowlege and understanding of location proximity comes into view.
        Just some Winter Thought to ponder…

        • Oh I, I hate spell check, knowle d ge I dropped the D…and so did the other 500′ ers.


        • Because there was a barrier in the way like a river you couldn’t cross. I think there is a road within 500 feet if you walk to the edge of the river you will be within 200 feet. And I think the keyword is it capital I T and it is a boat Begin boating where warm waters halt, And take your boat in the canyon down. Not far by boat but too far to walk and put in Below the home around . Now Put in makes more sense it’s a boat term.

          • Also I believe most of the clues point to One main spot except for the blaze. That is why some searches go right past the other seven

        • Yes TT, I am aware. Despite being 200′ away everyone else still has an equal shot because they didn’t solve the poem.

      • Functionally/pragmatically, I tend to agree. Until the TC is both found and
        successfully retrieved, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to be overly concerned with any (hypothetical or otherwise) “lead searcher”. Even someone who has solved the poem correctly could be unable to make the trip or BOTG hike. Due to the perceived value of the trove, it’s not
        highly likely that someone with a correct solve will blurt that information
        all over the internet, if they believe there’s any chance of making the trip and hike someday.

        Now, temporarily ignoring functional pragmatism, I strongly suspect that there is a searcher who has solved the poem well enough to know
        where to search (in an area smaller than that of the floor plan of a typical double-wide trailer. This is regardless of the difficulty of getting there. It seems to me that it’s just a matter of time (probably less than 2 years) before someone physically goes to the trove and retrieves it. All IMO.

    • Interesting thought, Forrest sees someone who posts on here that knows where to go. I have been sitting by the fireplace with my son, drinking hot chocolate, opening mail, drawing our map and counting the days. The lines cross very well on the right days. In the spring we will be on the terrace, getting ready for a short tough hike with the GPS. I believe the granddaddy of all puzzles has been solved by someone, and every day we get one foot closer to the treasure.

    • Afana – To try to answer your first question, Forrest’s release of new SB’s towards the end of last year was very similar to what happened the year before: a bombardment of new scrapbook entries at the end of year followed by a quiet period. My guess is that Forrest wrote up a good batch of SB entries through the summer, but wanted to wait to release them until the search season was over when we would be stuck indoors for the Winter, could use some well-appreciated entertainment, and give them our full attention. That’s just a guess on my part.

      If you go back through Dal’s comments as these most recent SB’s were released, he told us that Forrest initially gave him a good-sized batch of SB entries all at once and Dal & Forrest decided to space out their release over time to make them last. This past year, Dal got to a point where he posted his last SB from the initial batch and commented something along the line of “Whew! That’s the last one!” but then several more SB entries were posted after that, indicating to me that Forrest was still writing them up and cranking them out into late Fall and early Winter last year (Dal, please set me straight if anything I said just there was incorrect).

      I think that Forrest got out all the SB’s he wanted to towards the end of last year and then wanted to let them ferment in our minds for the remainder of time that we wait until the next search season begins.

      What I just wrote implies that I might think that there may be some subtle hints scattered in some of these SB entries regarding the treasure location, and although that’s correct, I am in no way certain about that; I’m very much on the fence regarding this issue. I could just as easily see it as true that there is nothing at all useful in the SB entries related to finding the treasure, and I’m just wallowing around in my own confirmation bias. Either way, I very much enjoy reading Forrest’s SB entries just for the sake of their own interesting content on their own.

      And regarding the lead searcher question, I don’t hold much stock in that idea. The Forrest quotes about the searchers/people who have come within 200′ or 500′ of the treasure I believe IS useful information, but that’s about as far as I go. All just my opinion too.

  15. It seems to me that many people are primarily relying on knowledge about Forrest to solve his poem. They are following the traditional education system method of memorizing facts and expecting to ace the test.

    But I am thinking that the Chase is not this kind of test at all. Forrest has said, “Imagination is more important than knowledge” and “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue.” So which is more important imagination or logic? I think both.

    The Chase is not a test we can study for, but an exercise in imagination and logic to solve the poem correctly. There has been debate in the Chase whether a high IQ is required to solve the poem correctly. I think it is. The kind of intelligence the IQ test describes is built on logic and imagination and one’s ability to use them effectively to solve problems.

    I don’t necessarily think the searcher with the highest IQ will find the chest, but I do think they will be somewhere in the high average to gifted range. They will be able to exercise logic and imagination to such a high degree that they will do what (we believe) no one else has done – solve the 9 clues in Forrest’s poem and find the chest. Let’s hope it will be soon!

    • Your effort will be worth the cold, is what the poem said. I think it means busting behind during the winter learning how to forget useless knoledge and think like a treasure hunter.

    • Heavy Loads,

      IQ test needs to be understood by the groups taking them;
      Mainly the age and sex of the total population, etc.
      Samples of the results are below..

      130+ Very Superior
      120 to 129 Superior
      110 to 119 High Average
      90 to 109 Average
      80 to 89 Low Average
      70 to 79 Borderline
      69 & below Intellectual Disability

      With this said; what do you consider the ‘ high IQ is required to solve the poem correctly’ ?
      Personally I don’t care for IQ test… two people of the same age and sex etc. can answer the same exact and amount of questions, and their scores will be different by the time it took each. If one took five minutes longer [answering all correctly] than the other, does that person have less of a chance to solving this because their IQ is lower?

      Logical and analytical mind; sound reasoning.
      Imagination; the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.
      fenn has also provided the idea of that the one who can best “adjust” will have a better chance… Or the idea imagination if more important than knowledge.

      I think common sense is more of a factor than ones IQ score.
      Common sense in the idea; * sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence.*… we shouldn’t think we know anything with precondition idea of how the poem may play-out. Imagination [we have been told] will help more in a winning solve.

      I don’t believe there’s an IQ standard for imagination… regardless of age, sex, education, etc. that an IQ test takes into calculating a score.
      To present my argument, we have some comments that we may like to consider; In part:
      No special knowledge…
      The book is enough to help the average person…
      The person who solves it will do so mostly with imagination…
      Plain English…
      Straight forwards…
      It helps to know.. geography of the RMs…
      The challenge was for [in part] an out of work redneck and family, and some resolve…
      Everyone has the same information.. same chance?

      Summary of my comment: I can’t disagree more.

      • IQ tests miss represent as an “idea”;

        if someone who speaks and writes in Spanish, is taking an IQ test given in English, what would that show?

        that is only an extreme example of slight variations of the same idea projected onto every version of a person’s background. It maybe extreme but it is not far from the truth with these type of tests.

        it shows who is writing the test rather than who is taking it…
        (worse still, not realizing that a Spanish written IQ test is different than an english written IQ test is basically failing the first question on an IQ test)

        the second question on an IQ test that is properly written is that the rest of this test is biased to who is writing it, and one should ignore the rest of this test.

        part of most IQ tests have “spelling” in it…

        people In Spanish speaking countries would ace such a part of the test, a third grader would do as well as a PHD on this part of the test in Spanish, as Spanish actually has rules, where English speaking/writing countries would struggle on the same part, obviously since English doesn’t make any sense/ nor does it actually have rules.

        (people have been led to believe there are rules, in reality there are none for English) wrap your minds around that for a minute, next time someone says: “that is not proper grammar”, ask them to show you the rule book from the ‘regulator’ or academy/institute of such…

        Dictionaries in English, no matter how “official” they sound have no “official” status.

        One can write a dictionary tomorrow, and it would be as official as any other English dictionary.

        all those spelling tests you took in school, you could have pulled out your own dictionary written by you and showed the teacher you did spell it /write/ , and placed it properly in grammar… because your dictionary is as official as any other one ever written for English, and is exactly how ever dictionary in English has ever been written.

        I don’t know if ff figure this out, but sounds like he did as he is constantly saying in so many words, who’s to say I can’t.

        Words can and DO have different meanings and spelling in English depending on which dictionary you would use.

        Spanish actually has a sanctioned and official government body and institute that decides on the rules of grammar and of spelling. and even more important, the rules make sense; specifically for spelling.

        so now we all can “pass” the first two questions on an IQ test, making our score perfect. congratulations, we all have perfect “IQs”…

        • Writis,

          I guess the real point I was making is that it takes a certain way of thinking to solve the poem and not just collecting a lot of facts about Forrest and his life.

      • I would go with average and above. It is going to take someone one really dedicated to working this out, and willing to be open minded to different ideas.

        • The nice thing about a “high IQ” is that it lets one know that when they are asking “Do you want fries with that?” that it’s a question, and should be spoken as one.

          An important thing in life is to focus on your goal, whether it
          be short-term or long-term. If you have seen the movie “Forrest
          Gump”, you may remember how good he was at table tennis, and how successful as a fisherman, all with an IQ that was less than average. As always, IMO.

      • Hello Seeker,

        I think many are missing the point that I was making, and it may be my fault for mentioning the IQ test. What I was really pointing out is that solving Forrest’s poem will take a certain kind of high-level thinking and not just accumulating a lot of facts about Forrest.

        I think that people are wasting a lot of time trying to learn a lot of facts about Forrest and his life in order to find the chest. I don’t think any of these facts about Forrest will help nearly as much as a creative way of thinking and problem solving in relation to the poem will.

        A high ability in this type of problem solving is usually correlated with a high IQ score. Therefore, I would say that IMO it is likely the finder will have an IQ of at least 110 but probably much higher. More likely the finder will have an IQ score in the gifted and talented range.

        I’m not saying that people with lower IQs are not smart, and I have a high respect for common sense and other gifts which are not measured by any standardized test, but I think to solve this type of puzzle, that has no precedent, will require a very deep thinker–someone who probably thinks differently than the crowd and tends to be a lone wolf, like Forrest. This is just my opinion, of course.

    • Good one (“gifted”). Some people believe that life is a gift. Are you one of them?

      This idea about having some kind of magical brain that miraculously appeared
      — that is quite a rarity — is a myth, in my opinion. If a person is raised in an
      environment of stimulation, encouragement, and opportunity, guess what?
      There are no miracles here. But it’s not likely that a pair of teenaged parents,
      relatively uneducated and addicted to crack are likely to provide to their child
      an environment suitable for development of what folks tend to think of as some kind of prodigy. This is not rocket science.

      As always, IMO.

  16. Hello Chasers,
    I sent a post late yesterday and only received one response.
    If you read this, please give an opinion. I think it is worth a little attention. TY.
    If someone was 200′ from the chest and arrived there from solving the first 2 clues correctly, but then went right past the next 7 clues. Does this mean the next 7 clues are very close to each other and with in 200′ of the chest?
    The searcher(s) 0’……..50’………100’……..75’………200′ CHEST
    At this point the searcher(s) have solved 2 clues to be where they are standing.
    Wouldn’t the next 7 clues have to be with in the next 200′?
    Unless you want to raft down a river, then climb a tall mountain, And finally take a zip line right back to the place you started to be close again.
    What do you think?

    • Yes I agree in my spot there is a road 500 feet from a isolated area and if you walk to the edge of the river you will be 200 feet. That is why people can only get within 200 feet I think you need a boat. I think the keyword is IT and IT Is a boat begin boating where warm waters halt and take your boat in the canyon down . Not far by boat but too far to walk put in Below the home of brown.. now put in makes more sense it’s a boating term.

    • CJE;

      Where is it said that those that solved the first two clues were the same folks that have been within 200′? You seem to be matching apples and oranges.

      Forrest has said that he knows that people have solved the first two clues, and maybe solved 3 or 4, but he is not sure (paraphrasing)

      Forrest has also said that searchers have been within 500′ and a few within 200′

      To the best of my knowledge, he has never said that these two groups of searchers are the same.

      Maybe the searchers that solved two clues then went some distance farther down the canyon, up a creek and were near a Heavy Loads area, all without knowing that they had solved clues getting there. From where they were, they might then have been within 200′, without knowing that they had solved a couple of clues in getting to where they were, and very well have been miles or hundreds of feet from the first two clues locations. – JMO – JDA

      • Well, JDA,

        In a link in the *media section* [that doesn’t work anymore]. Fenn kinda link the first two clues solvers being near the treasure chest… although, exact distance is not mentioned… a summation for folks being within 500′ seems logical as being the same folks who started at WWsH.
        ~”It’s not a matter of trying, It’s a matter of thinking… I mean, sure, people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”
        Now if all we’re going to do is wait for what we hope is proper confirmation from fenn, in the idea he must be clear as a bell… LOL we’re going to be chatting till the cows come home about lack of confirmation. Another-words… I doubt fenn is going to narrow anything down than what we already have.

        • I think you are right Seeker. We can conjecture all we want, but only Forrest knows, and “He ain’t talkin’ ” JDA

    • CJE,

      Simple answer is; we don’t ‘know’ how, or how far, folks traveled from WWsH to get to a point of 500′ or 200′ from the trove.
      Some of us speculate the idea for a searcher to have been on site, at the first clue[s], went by seven remaining clues, and got within 500′ ish of the trove.. the location would seem relatively small.

      Could all the clues [ or at least ] the seven remaining clues be within a few hundred feet? Sure, depending on perspective of what one thinks the size of a clue representation could be.

      Another factor to considered; If clues are farther apart… do they need to be seen, or must we travel to them?
      I which case [seen]; the searcher could be close to the trove, but the clues are of a distance.
      Example only: for all the lines to cross, idea… a searcher could be standing at a specific point that they are able to see the physical clue’s references and follow where they all meet at, idea. This could possibly place almost all who were in the correct location a short distance from the trove.
      That may sound a bit confusing to some. So my example would be; Think of being at WWsH… all physical clues surround you. You must now find each one in the right order and follow it, [ with that imaginary line ], aligning it to the next clue. When all clue’s lines meet correctly .. you could have the spot where the chest lays in wait.
      So, Canyon down might be {lets say} due east. hoB, southwest, NPFTM- north, HL- northwest, WH -northeast… and of all different distances, with all lines meeting at one point, that is only seen from a single vantage point.

      If all you’re going to do is think about it all as a stomping point to point solve… are you not forcing/needing the clues in your scenario to be close?

      Just sayin………

    • If you wrote a paper, and I wrote a paper, and later I saw your paper and I said that your thoughts were very close to mine… does that mean that your head was really close to mine physically?

      If I said I ‘stood on the shoulders’ of the people who came before me, does that mean my feet were close to their heads?

      if I said you were very close to figuring “it” out, but went right on past without looking the right direction…

      does that mean we were physically line of sight to each other…

      if I said, your ideas were nearly the same as mine, but you one upped me, and walked right on past me…

      does that mean we live on the same street?

      I am not exactly sure what the deal is with literal interpretations of western english /speak/, other than it is the most comfortable, right or wrong.

    • I think you should focus on what the poem says, and not concern yourself with
      any ATFs about the search experience(s) of any other folks. It’ll just distract you, thinking about that. The clock is ticking, and many folks believe that this next search season (i.e., spring/summer/autumn) will be the one during which the TC is found. Good luck to you. I don’t think the entertainment provided by the blogs is as valuable to one person as the trove would be. In other words, forget the blogs. Solve the poem. As always, in my opinion.

  17. Caller: “Hello, Mr Obvious? Hey first time caller here, long time listener. Not gonna beat around the bush, I’m flat out worried. Been seein’ as how there’s all this talk about IQ and well, I’m really not the sharpest tack in the room if you know what I mean. Hey I barely graduated from high school. So here’s the big question. Do I have a chance to be the one? The finder?”

    Mr Obvious: “Well caller you are competing with some very smart searchers. Not going to lie there. But remember f said a redneck cowpoke from TX that lost his job and had twelve kids had a chance (not his exact words but similar). So the bottom line is this. IMO, you can make up for lower IQ with sweat equity if ye’ get my drift.”

    Caller: “Huh? Well never thought about it that way. Makes the Chase fair to all doesn’t it? I’m feelin’ better now. Thanks Mr Obvious. Your the best.”

    Mr Obvious: “Well you have a chance but they’re slim actually. Caller? Caller? Hmm. He must be heading out for BOTG. Wait for … “ (never mind).
    Good luck Caller.”

    • Some of the smartest people I know are “rednecks” who may or may not have had occasional periods of unemployment. Forrest used that particular term for a reason. And I doubt he meant it to be derogatory or imply low IQ. IMO of course.

  18. I have a question for all searchers, a simple one, one of a yes or no, true or false answer, please think about or state if you will an answer, and try not apply conjecture, personally I see that as the biggest problem we wrestle with on this blog, incomplete information and we may all be guilty.

    Here is my Q: Does anyone believe that Forrest Fenn has never hinted or dropped a clue in at least one SCrapbook or one Vignette, one Aberrations, Speed Bumps, Treasures Bold, Snapshots, Passages, other new, blogs, posting, comments… etc?

    Is there a way to flag, put attention, or suspect when he is posting something say in a scrapbook that could be a hint or a clue? In the beginning of the Thrill Book, he speaks of the function of a card called a Joker, and since this is his introduction to our “Thrill of the Chase” we might want to pay or as some natives say put attention there. In many of the festivals of Native Americans there may be a joker, a Heyoka among the guests who plays tricks on them for fun and sport, not unlike burning Zozobra or Roasting a Guest in satire or even direct poking fun at someone in a playful manner.

    Many here who read Forrest Fenn’s writings have seen this, even if they are not conscious of its presence. I would ask you to view the Joker, the clown, the Heyoka in some examples, one would be very obvious, “For Whom The Bell Tolls”, Important Literature, page 9, it was about the Spanish Civil War, not WW1, Look at SCbook 211… https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/10/scrapbook-two_hundred-eleven/ …Why did Forrest intentionally misspell “Merle Haggard” as Meryl? Meryl Streep has played many great roles, but Me and Bobby McGee was written by Chris Christopherson, Janis Joplin made it famous, but those are not IMO what he, ff wanted us to think about, this is where we just have to use imagination. It is difficult to not use conjecture, I am as guilty as any searcher for jumping into conclusions that might not be correct, but something important is in these and if you follow SCBook 241 and keep our nose high we might see the goal in the sunlight above…Who was emailing him about his collection? https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/27/scrapbook-two_hundred-forty-two/

    The definition of logic is a science that studies the principles of correct reasoning. An example of logic is deducing that two truths imply a third truth. An example of logic is the process of coming to the conclusion of who stole a cookie based on who was in the room at the time. When would Forrest Scrapbooks not tell us anything of value in the chase?

    I believe that in logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (also known as the law of contradiction, AKA the principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e. g. the two propositions “A is B” and “A is not B”.,, So if Forrest does not intend to mislead us, and we are finding ways to do that our selves, it is not his fault, but I for one believe many times and many ways he is showing us glimpses of the Riddle of his Poem and I feel, not logic, but a “Spiritual Pathway” in the poem we should follow.

    That is the reason he stated “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek”, the answer is spiritual IMO and so is Where Warm Waters Halt. Why else post 3 Spanish Crosses or Cruces and an OLDEN WOOD Chest with the question to me of where else would he hide it, except WWWH?



    • Wow, Tom. What a post. But I thought I might add a few thoughts.

      1. I think most people are not good at using logic in this Chase. They take a few facts Forrest says and try to come up with some rules that Forrest never made, such as all the clues are within 1000 ft of each other. Forrest never said that, and in fact, said there was a distance between 2 of the clues that was too far to walk.

      2. Forrest has definitely included some hints in the scrapbooks, and has even pointed out that he has done so. For instance, see Scrapbook 207 where Forrest says, “Maybe it is time for me to give another hint. The Fenn Treasure chest is not hidden at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, or any property owned by them.” f This is a hint Forrest wanted to make sure everyone got. He also did the same in Scrapbook 248 where he ruled out the Grand Canyon of Yellowstone.

      But these are obvious hints. Are there other, more subtle, hints that Forrest has included in the Scrapbooks? Yes, I happen to think there are, but that is just my opinion. And the problem is, to find the correct hints you need to have solved the poem correctly in the first place. IMO any “hints” Forrest has given will not help you solve the poem; they only act as confirmation once you have already done so. Therefore, it is wasting time to look for hints to solve the poem. Much better to solve the poem first, then use the hints for confirmation so that you can go with more confidence to the chest

      Hope this helps. Good luck in the Chase!

      • P.S. Unlike most people, Tom,, I also believe there is enough information in the poem to allow someone to solve it and find the chest. I think most people have not done this because they have failed to identify the key (word) which unlocks an important clue that will eventually help one solve the rest of the clues and marry them to the correct locations on a map. Is this being done even now? Will the chest be found before Forrest’s 90th birthday? These questions I cannot answer for sure, but I am hoping and praying Forrest will have his bracelet back for his 90th.

  19. Nearly four years into the Chase and can finally say that I feel that I have solved all the clues to the poem. The one clue that was elusive to me was, “The end is every growing nigh”. All along, I thought Forrest was trying to say that you are getting close to the end, but no. It is actually an old church cemetery. Here we had passed right by it six times on the way to our Blaze.

  20. Drawing in painting is interesting and beautiful but to an Architect, it is bread and butter.


    • Dave icenhower, you have the Church part right, IMO, but it is a metaphorical church in the mountains, and it is where one can marry, and sins can be forgiven. We may even find Holy Water, in the basin at the front, and tears are shed because of the mercies we have been shown, and these mountains are filled with Grace Abundantly.


  21. Heavy Loads,

    That leaves me out. But my Dad is still in the running! He didn’t make it through the 8th grade(Grandpa needed help on the farm) but at age 55 or so, and as one of the top machinists in the country, taught himself GEOMETRY! And he had that Elvis hair…really Dad?

    I always said that if I was half as smart as him, I’d have it made! Ummm, I don’t have it made. But it’s okay! My 2 older brothers do!

    I literally should have failed GEOMETRY…but Miss R. must have felt sorry for the me. Proofs that there was a theorem, just waiting to still be discovered! LOL.


  22. The majority is always wrong.
    Something to think about as information on the blogs is shared. Thinking outside the box while still being in the box.
    How many believe that it’s “too far” ‘to walk’?
    How many believe that your walk is short?
    How many believe he made two trips in the same day?
    How many have line 13 or line 14 as the last clue?
    How many need a map to solve the poem?
    How many do not see numbers within the poem?
    How many believe that all the clues can be solved from home?
    How many believe they will know WWWH before any other thing?
    How many are looking for some kind of special place?
    How many people know what a clue is?

    You can think of any questions you can, and presume the answers that are popular, Those popular answers are probably……..wrong. Look at what we all talk about on the blogs regarding the chase. Are you a follower or a leader?

    • From the very beginning, searchers have said that the clues are to ambiguous. I can think of a type of generic location that might fit the clues, but I can’t make the clues fit, or describe a location. I don’t know if that makes any sense, I just don’t feel inspired by any ideas I have, there’s always way to much missing.

    • poisonivey,

      Regardless of the video.. or popular answers…
      IMO, they are all wrongly worded questions.
      Example; when you ask, “How many believe that it’s “too far” ‘to walk’?” You leave out any option other than a physical movement. What about “NOT FAR”?
      You also asked questions, or worded them in a manner that the answer is always subjective. In this manner the questions tend to lead a searcher to give you an answer that is reasonable in your mind.
      Example: “How many believe he made two trips in the same day?” He stated two trips in one afternoon… for this question to be answered in any other manner, an idea needs to be placed in the question. You gave the possible idea of; two trips on two different days in the wording of the question.
      That’s a red herring question.

      The answers don’t change.. it’s how the question is presented that gives options never presented originally.
      IMO.. the speaker in the video is full of holes. To follow his presentation is not an example of the idea… leader of the pack.

      • Seeker, they were just examples. That’s why I said, “You can think of any questions you can”. The point was to look into extraordinary outcomes. How the masses make the same mistakes, and what to do if we are to look for other, “extraordinary”, answers.
        Those example questions were meant to have a common answer. For searchers to see that they are not alone in there beliefs in what they are reading, and to think that the process in doing so may be flawed. To maybe think outside the box while still staying within the box.
        It’s just an example, I don’t care if I believe the speaker or not, just that it’s an experiment in a thought process. A different point of view. Has nothing to do with the thought of some lead searcher.
        Sometimes Seeker, a video is just a video. To be watched and thought of individually. Come up with your own theories kind of thing.
        My questions, mean nothing. Like I said, just examples. The topics we have been talking about. I don’t care of any outcomes or such. Maybe, I gave the link because I wanted searchers to find a cool link, with many topics. I’m not psychoanalyzing anything. You shouldn’t be either. It’s just a video that is interesting and can be applied to the chase somewhat.
        But if you really want to get into the wording of some on the spot questions, we can use some of Dal’s hdd space to discuss using all the words or whatever. Loosen the tie a little bit Seeks.

    • One sometimes and the other at other times.

      In this treasure hunt, neither. I don’t follow the crowd, and am not soon followed.

      After the trove is found, somebody might follow the same path (for all practical purposes) as the path that the finder took.

      As always, IMO.

    • The majority is always wrong… more or less.
      the average of the Majority is 95% correct though…

      view the “wisdom of the crowd” or “parable of the ox”, which is the birth of statistics and a Math discipline that has both caused incredible advances in science and also extremely deep rabbit holes.. all at the same time.

      to which I will reiterate a concept I presented earlier:

      now that searchers are at about 450,000.. some new, some old, some retired… the poem has been solved 100 times over, but only in the sense that the best solutions (and the correct solution) to each individual clue has been found individually and to the extent of 1 clue at different positions in this crowd….

      (fully independently too as the best solutions to individual clues are not being shared, sort of like the crowd guessing the weight of the ox, without knowing other’s guess)

      so theoretically, a person in possession of every answer to every individual clue from this sourced crowd could piece together the actual end to end solution.

      so shall we all split it for our $0.50 each? 🙂

    • poisonivy,

      Your Qs with my As —

      Q: How many believe that it’s “too far” ‘to walk’?
      A: Requires context. I have it.

      Q: How many believe that your walk is short?
      A: Requires you to define “short” as that is your word, not FFs.

      Q: How many believe he made two trips in the same day?
      A: Me. FF said two trips in one afternoon. I believe him.

      Q: How many have line 13 or line 14 as the last clue?
      A: Me. There are, however, additional hints that follow.

      Q: How many need a map to solve the poem?
      A: Me.

      Q: How many do not see numbers within the poem?
      A: Meaning of question unclear. No numbers (literally) in poem (“Alone” implies “one” but for me that does not count.). I did discover a means to discover a relevant number.

      Q: How many believe that all the clues can be solved from home?
      A: Not me. 8 can be solved from home.

      Q: How many believe they will know WWWH before any other thing?
      A: Not me. I reverse engineered from hoB.

      Q: How many are looking for some kind of special place?
      A: Requires a more complete definition of “special” and how broadly you mean “place”. For me, yes, this is a special place.

      Q; How many people know what a clue is?
      A: I do.

  23. Anyone here have an actual, visible rainbow in their spot? I do. It has two ends and it’s a straight line.
    What causes rainbows? In lay mens terms…sunshine and water ….
    Hmmm..sunshine and water sounds warm…hmmm….;-)

    • I have a ray in a bow in my search area. And the clues go right through them.

        • I think he was out fishing and a freshwater ray jumped into the front of his boat.

          When I wrote this, tongue in cheek, I didn’t think there were freshwater rays. After looking it up I see that they exist. But the closest place they live in the wild is in South America.

    • Jdiggins,

      LOL I’ll hit on a point that others like to use when I mention sunshine…

      What happens if it’s a cloudy day?
      Also for rainbow to occur the sun needs to be at just the right angle to reflect on the moister in the air. So how do you know when that happens during the sunny days?

      But I need to ask; Straight line-?- how does a visual rainbow have straight lines? Would love to see it…

      • Seeker! Hello!
        Well, the rainbow is not physically there, it was when the GE shot was taken. And we all know how deceptive them straight lines on GE can be!

        • Ah! gotcha… thanks
          On the other hand… if all we had were conventional paper maps would you see a rainbow in your spot?

          • Prolly only the rainbows of my highlighters. 🙂 Very good point! IF you only used conventional maps, that is. 😉

      • Seeker, Just a note about viewing a rainbow, if you are high enough in altitude, say in an aircraft or a high mountaintop, a rainbow forms a perfect circle, also lightning on the horizon at higher altitudes is red, not blueish, trivia is wonderful, but it won’t help find Indulgence…


        • TT, didn’t you have a write up on “catch 22”?
          You mention a “rainbow halo”, but don’t think trivia will help? What degrees is a rainbow halo seen from?
          I would think you of all people would tie the two together.
          Especially since the rainbow halo is mostly seen in the mountains.
          (p.s., it’s a hint TT)

  24. Getting back to the subject of a lead searcher:

    Has everyone forgotten that FF loves to play with the meaning and spelling of words? A “lead ” searcher could mean, as FF may have intended in his quote, a searcher looking for the metal, lead. Lead is a heavy, easily melted, bluish gray metal. A chemical element. Forrest’s concerns are for the TC searcher, not any “lead” metal searcher.

    There is definitely a searcher who is in the lead, ahead of all the other searchers, no matter how close to the TC he is. He could have just solved the first clue and may be the current leader searching for the TC.

    Here’s another sought after idea:
    What if after solving the first 2 clues you are “near” the TC, but the 2 clues don’t lead exactly “to” the TC? What if you must go past the area of the TC to find the 3rd clue? And then on to the next clues in a circuitous route and then back directly to the TC? This circuitous route could take you many miles away from the TC and then back to it again. Now Forrest wouldn’t mislead us like that would he?

    • Landhigh,

      I believe fenn answered that very question; circuitous route.
      Well, the wording was switching back or circling back, not so much circuitous. And I do understand the idea that a searcher is not going back to WWsH, perse, but to the TC that is close to the first clue {which would seem to be 500′ ish away}.
      My question is; what obstacle would prevent a searcher not being able to get closer, other than the circuitous route?
      Elevation come to mind, but I was curious it you had something else in mind?
      One reason I ask;
      In your scenario, after following this route, should one find themselves below WWsH.. would WH be the same as WWsH and possibly the blaze… just seen from a different angle?

      LOL I’m just mulling the idea over in my head…

      • Seeker, on this idea you have expressed above, about elevation being or having to do with WWWH, that idea may have more to do with “Too far to walk” IMO, or both, but lets face, there could be many meanings for WWWH and multiple meanings are possible for Too Far as well, the question is not only elevation difference in mountainous terrain, but even the pathway, a prime poem example would a “put in” to me it means to go into water or onto water in most uses, I was US NAVY and a “Put In” meant boat or swim follow water in or near, for access to an area, so as we think of the “Home of Brown”, which is probably a “THAT” not a “Whom”, (see ff comments about “If I Told You THat”), it means the home of Brown is more likely a creek or body of water, since we are wet after that point of the pathway, our put in, in our poem…right? Suddenly we change to a different path, even though the end is drawing nigh, There’ll be not paddle up your creek? Why because of Heavy Loads and Water High?
        I have never take that to mean a waterfall, because of heavy loads, but something tells me we are on the right track. Well what is the Blaze and why must we be wise to find it well it all borders on your perspective, I have mine any you all have yours, but if the blaze is to last for a thousand years it would help if it were chizeled in stone or Brass.

        I can see when ff said “That” and not WHO he is human, a Freudian slip, kinda like saying “Trees”, not Pine trees and of course Pinon just for flavor or did it smell funny, awe pinon nuts!



        • PS, I even imagine that “Brave and in the Wood” could be water or a waterway, a pathway since the words before it were “Your effort will be worth the cold”? Now where does one find a “Miss Ford” or is she just another border line biddie? How is a title definded you ask: Metes & Bounds or bounderies are the stuff Titles are made of. I rest my thoughts till spring.


        • Hey Jdighins, long time since we have communicated, it’s Deeep. Maybe what you saw was the splice of satellite of two sections of satellite images. I’ve encountered them many times, including my spot. Maybe there is one of these ribbons of rainbow colors at spot. But let me tell you this: the end of his rainbow, what ends a rainbow? Lack of warm water or the sun. So a place called Sunset or Horizon would fit the bill as the end of his rainbow and/or lines 13/14. It also fits my spot. We will see when the snow melts some.

          • Hey deeep!
            Long time, yes! I like ribbons of rainbow, that fits. You are correct, lack of sun and water ends a rainbow physically, BUT, so does VISUALLY, either A: the horizon (as you mentioned looking for a place so titled) OR, the fixed ends as would be in a photograph. Perhaps this rainbow begins and ends WWWH, thus not knowing you had the first clue until you find the treasure (paraphrase).

        • Funny you should say brass, like a bench mark in survey lol. Where you looking TT? Have you been wise and gone alone? You have a lean-to in that survey report? 🙂

      • Seeker,

        In my scenario the TC is not very close to the first clue. In fact it is many miles away from clues 1 and 2.

        There is an obstacle in my scenario. It is a body of water. But it’s not the obstacle that prevents searchers from going to the TC at this point. It’s that they are looking for the 3rd clue, not the TC. They don’t know the TC is so close.

        After following the circuitous route a searcher would come back onto his same general route when he was between clues 2 and 3. He would be many miles below WWH. Water high would have no connection to WWH and would not be a clue, just a confirmation hint along with heavy loads. The blaze would be clue #4 and would be below WH and HL’s (in elevation.)


        You are correct, in my scenario there are also many miles between many, but not all, of the clues.

    • First two clues and already near the chest? How lazy is that? The leader is miles ahead and left those two clues behind years ago, IMO.

      Try the opposite– each clue is miles away from the last one. That makes more sense to me.

      Your idea about pronouncing words differently for different meanings is interesting and I think likely in play if you are confronted with it. But I don’t think that word is ‘lead’. I think that word is ‘wind’ as in winding somebody up. And I’m serious, even though the lark above stands on its own.

  25. Today March 1st in 1872 Yellowstone became the first National Park. Happy 148th birthday Yellowstone!

  26. Omeaga is a horse shoe, and a hose shoe is kinda like a sideways u, and two u’s stacked sideways is a capital B (plus a line), so treasure must b…. Somewhere…..

  27. ….the snow melts and the mud dries…
    some of the ingredients in the grand recipe of wwwh.

  28. Deeepthnkr here, I just wanted to give a shout out to everyone on this thread, It’s been awhile since a fairly intellectual, focused discussion about the poem has taken place on any of the blogs. I have thoroughly enjoyed and shall now join if you don’t mind. I just had a thought about line 21and this may be key word. All. If the chest has been found in stanza 4 then why is he addressing ALL of us to hear him and listen? I’ve heard the Echo theory, etc but this tells me that there is an instruction here and the poem is meant to be cycled through a second.time. This instruction helps us with the clues. Why else would he address us ALL if chest was found by one earlier in poem. Thoughts…I think I know why but I’ll hold off to hear you first. Thank you

    • It is like an instruction, IMO, how to approach a solve. The first part I take as listen to the words, the second part, “and listen good”, I take as to take it to another level. Not only the words, but the letters, words within words, etc…
      To approach each line in the poem and do what is instructed. By using instruction words and letters. That’s at face value. Example, your line 21, So hear me all and listen good,
      Start with “So”
      then “he” ar “me”, so he now becomes me. This gives you “Some”.
      then, ALL and L is ten, so A+L+L+L=10, gives three outcomes:
      A=1, L=3, OR, A=7, L=1, OR, A=4, L=2.
      You then have the word “good”, or go od(go odd).kick out the even values.
      left with: Some all and l is ten good. A=1,L=3, or A=7, L=1.
      You can believe or not believe in letter values, but that is how line 21 can be broken down while following instructions. I would say though that you would need to be instructed on what to do, it’s taboo to just rearrange letters or words without the instruction to do so. The thing is that every line in the poem can be broken down this way. In that sense, it’s done by design. Also, some lines can be broken down many different ways.
      So yes, you will be going through the poem again, and again, and again, IMO. You can see for yourself, it’s the architecture of the poem, IMO.

      • I’m hiring me some good “code talkers.”
        Think all this is way beyond my lil brain can comprehend.

        • Hello P, don’t see the correlation. If you are thinking it’s a code, not trying to point to that. Just follow the directions of what is given. I really didn’t care if there were numbers or not, it’s just DT was asking about line 21. Are you saying that you don’t see that line being read that way? How about the second line, starts off with “and with my”, Do you not see how you put the word “and” with the word “my”?
          Of course, you have to use the whole line, but it looks obvious to me that there are instruction words in the poem. It is a way to solve the poem. Please don’t tell me you use a map to solve the poem.
          Actually Americana, it is quite simple. Why do searchers get it confused with codes, I don’t get it. I didn’t use a code or anything, just did what the line said to do. How is that so difficult? Why do you think f used the word “good” instead of “well”? And at face value, that line says to “hear me all” what does that mean, to hear the words he is speaking? He then even takes it farther and says to listen good.
          Look at every line, it is possible to break down each line by just following the instructions. Not hard at all. You see code or whatever because of the letter value answer, but that is what that line can break down to. That seems a lot easier then trying to find some WWWH on a map. The first line to me says, As I have the ale. There is no code or anything there, it’s just what that line breaks down to. Or I should say one of the ways it breaks down to. F did start this when he was sick.
          My thoughts P, don’t use some kind of codes or cyphers to solve the poem. In fact, aren’t we suppose to follow instructions? My only thing would be that you cannot leave out any words, move them around, or mess with the poem, unless f tells us to. Each line, using all the words, breaks down very nicely. As far as I’ve seen, nothing written does that except this poem. But it’s what I see, don’t expect anyone to get it, but it is sooo obvious…

          • PI – I was being a bit sarcastic cuz I agree with you 100% and I am stumbling. Apologies. There ARE instructions in the poem but you gotta look and listen. I appreciate what you are saying – please keep it up cuz I am listening and learning.

          • No worries Americana. You post a lot and have some good thoughts, so keep ’em coming. We can only throw stuff out there, and if it sticks to a searcher, lol, then it’s their problem. But yes, I feel the poem has instructions and they need to be followed. From what I’ve found, border lines on messing, pick and choosing, etc…so I get it. I never said I liked the solve, just what I’ve found.

        • Hello poisonivey. Thank you for your response. For me, I see it as a code. Throughout the years I’ve been involved, I’ve seen other searchers break down words as you have. I believe everyone has the right to understand the poem as they see fit. Personally, I do use a map to understand and marry the clues. I thought Mr. Fenn mentioned maps. You mentioned good vs. well. It’s possible he needed a word to rhyme with wood and such was used. Here is another thought I had this morning. What if “Hear me all” suggested someone in high rank, with a mass of people; a gathering, “and listen good” was to deal with morals/teachings. A church? A clergyman? Perhaps it just means to pay attention to what he was telling us. I’m not sure what the true reason is of why he used good vs. well, but either way, I’ll keep thinking.

          • Yes, this kind of thinking is required. Like listen good as list ten good being the ten commandments, there’s a list of ten and it has a “good” source but this is wrong. I do know that it must incorporate the next line for that has been the pattern in poem solve. I don’t think anyone has the answer yet. It’s why I’m here. Asking for help. This is where I am at in the correct solve and it’s got me hung up. I have plans in place once some snow melts to get her. If you could help out the eventual finder would you? Ty every one

          • Hey P, I actually have a church right at my WWWH. It’s where I park my car.
            I assumed you would see it as messing with the poem, which I could understand. But code? I still can’t see. Not using any codes, but I guess we can disagree.
            Now about your map. Like you said, ” I believe everyone has the right to understand the poem as they see fit”, and I’m not going to argue with that. I believe the same, but a map….P, I guess okay, I just thought you would be one to solve the poem without any help. Ughh, I’m so let down, lol, just playin’.
            I keep pretty tight as far as policing a solve. To me, a searcher should only have the poem in front of them, and if another searcher discusses solving the poem, they would not need anything else but the poem. As soon as something outside the poem is used to solve the poem, I lose interest. I’m in no way saying it’s right or wrong, just to me, solving the poem is solving the poem. And yes, of course, a searcher will end up using maps and any other aids, but to just solve the poem, IMO, you only need the poem. But what do I know. Nothing.
            Lastly, I just think that f would have thought of that. I just feel like there is a lot more to it. And, all the info a searcher really had in 2010 was all you need is the poem. So at the core of the chase, or at the core of a solve, just need the poem. Then again, he did say “buried”, so who knows about all that early info?
            I like your posts P, keep on keepin’ on.

          • I’m sorry I let you down, poisonivey. (Giggle.) Thank you for your kind words.

      • Ty for reply but I have learned through yours of selective anagramming, values etc with no results to finally figuring out most of poem. Imo. I’m stuck on this line. I suspected it was for the finder only till I realized the ALL wasn’t for just one person. Me+all= meall which can be mound or an ear (fleshy protuberance). The ear plus listen/hear seems to match but the rest of poem is more elegant in design. In my solve the book is very relative on some.clues in how they match perfectly. Much more so than I have read anywhere. I have pointed out some of these abberations to fall on deaf ears, :). One line in poem matches one line in book to a T and probably coincidence but they are both line 14 of poem and that page. How it relates to a specific spot on ground is scarily perfect. I believe I’m to a point that only being there will solve line 15. Call me 24′ guy lol. I’ll put a cap on this now but wanna hear more please.

        • I’ve found a lot of references coming from page 15 of the book. It is the only page with an asterisk. One thing from that page,
          reference to ” a few are in tight focus with a word that is key”.
          The word “few” is on this page, the 113th word, the word “that” is the 113th word of the poem. That’s pretty tight focus.

      • Not trying to throw dust on your analysis however I can read your analysis the following way:
        Some all and L is 10 (good, Your effort will be worth the cold.)
        If L is 10 then M is 11 and so on so A is 25 sum all of (good, Your effort will be worth the cold.) =366 or 36.6 or 3+6+6=15? Number 366? Latitude 36.6? Hwy 15? OR would you sum all (Entire Line) with original verbiage = 611 or 61.1 or 6+1+1=8

          • I concur.
            Just take one piece at a time;
            pretty soon you’ll have the whole pie.
            Enjoy it.

          • Somewhere Tall, there will need to be a number. How, out in the forest will you find such a small spot, without a number? How does f know that people have been within 200′? Why say it, and why know the distance if there is no numbers? Somewhere, sometime, you will need a number, whether knowing how many steps to take, things to count, whatever, a number will come to play. Unless f wants people to walk around with no idea and on the basis of a hunch.
            If anything, I would strongly urge those that don’t see numbers to find them. A number will play a big role in the chase, if not many numbers, IMO.

        • how would “M” be 11? I can see if you leave out “all”, you can get L=10, and if you use “all”, then you put values in the whole sentence, but you are guessing at letter values you don’t have and that are not part of the sentence. If you read like your analysis, it would be wrong. Even though you can come to this analysis, (and I do see what you are trying to say), for it to comply, you would have to give good reason on your value for “M”.
          Also, that is how breaking down the lines goes. I did say that there are some lines that have many possibilities. It’s just in the end, there are no questions. It smoothly flows from line one to line 24. To interpret line 21 as you have, just makes no sense. While reading it like I posted makes total sense.
          Even with all the letter values, L=10 makes no sense, and can be debunked. So in the end, the way you analyzed that line could easily be debunked and therefore, wrong.
          I think you are confusing how the values got there values. To go with a L=10, so M=11, then N=12, and so on has no basis because you were not told to do so. Let’s put it another way, f would not make it that easy. He would make his own values, and follow his own rules. That would be like using a=1, b=2, c=3, d=4, and so on. IMO, f would not make it that simple. Look at my question a little lower here on the post. Look at all those values, then use the way to solve for all those values. They all match up. They also all add up to 80. While the secondary values add up to 57. Pretty coincidental. All from the poem. Look at: blaze, gaze, cease(c as e, sounds like), to name a few. I’m not going to give away the whole thing, but this just seems like it’s done by design. The thing is, the values match up to stories, which I like. And, I’m just not smart enough to have come up with this on my own, and have it match most of the stories.
          There may be no values in the letters in a good solve, who knows but f, but if there are, these are them.

  29. Deeep, I know you will understand this and by golly it matches your list ten good…
    …title to the gold..
    Title, tooth, egg old..
    Old eggs and old teeth are rotten…
    Rotten phonetically can be
    wrote ten…
    Title books….

  30. A=7, B=2, C=3, D=1, E=3, F=1, G=3, H=2, I=3, J=1, K=3, L=1, M=3, N=2, O=3, P=1, Q=3, R=1, S=3, T=2, U=7, V=1, W=7, Y=7, Z=1
    What does “X” equal?

      • X= 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,or 9. (I use 9):)(Pattern: take the letter value and go forward and backward that value, the resulting letters equal each other, example: A=7, so T=H, B=2, so Z=D, etc…).

        Clint/Travis, I don’t believe the treasure chest is at “X”. IMO. Although, I believe there is a treasure at “X”.

  31. Seeker, I haven’t had the time to pick up our conversation from last week so I’ll make an attempt now.

    I still do not see how you have responded directly to the question of which 2 clues had been solved. I think that is pretty important. There certainly can be more than one clue needed to solve for a location or instruction, but if we know the first 2 had been solved for sure, then which 2 clues do you think they are?

    That being said, I also told you I would tell you of my interpretation of some of the clues so here I go..

    BIWWWH is a specific location, ATIITCD is an actual canyon, NFBTFTW is a distance. Those 3 clues need to be solved to find the general area although some could reach the general canyon by chance or having solved those 2 clues. PIBTHOB is the specific place to park your car to begin your search. FTINPFTM is describing the area having no trails and it takes some courage to go through an unmarked area of wilderness. TEIEDN I’m using as an instruction to travel east (I’ve explained here once before how I reached that conclusion), TBNPUYC is a small creek just a couple feet wide and does not show up on internet maps that I’ve seen so far, JHLAWH is what is at the end of this creek as you travel up (north), IYBWAFTB, LQDYQTC is combined to say that you should’ve found something that stands out in that area and once your at it, look down because that’s where the treasure is hidden.

    This is all quite vague of course because I actually have a location I could travel to. It is only about a mile from where I’d park my car, and I could easily explain how searchers were within 500 feet and 200 feet but I’ll keep that to myself for now. I also have a reason why this place at least COULD be special to ff but who knows if I’m right.


    • I’ll clarify that I mean google map doesn’t show the creek but the satellite map does. Also I’ll add that the chest is wet because though it is not underwater, a water source nearby at times rises almost to what I think the blaze may be. That, and I think it could get end up getting wet during rain and snowfall. There’s a reason why more searchers would be 500 feet away than 200 feet away. There’s a reason the blaze may not exactly face any direction. There’s a reason why several people who were not treasure hunting would go to WWWH. It is isolated because the location of the chest is a place that people would not normally go. The only thing I haven’t really been able to get past is the comment about the little girl in India. So if everything beyond the first two clues cannot be solved from home then my solve probably doesn’t work. I could theoretically solve everything BOTG after the first two clues if I had to but I can also solve them from home using google earth so go figure. The only way to truly confirm would be to go out and find the chest. Perhaps one day, not likely this summer though unfortunately. After a few months of thinking and looking at maps I actually feel pretty confident about this solve, at least, as confident as one could reasonably be while still having reservations.

  32. Ok, my partner will kill me if she reads this but here we go. I have figured out why he uses All I line 21. Punctuation is important in line 21. Two ideas are represented that apply to cold. I will give you one but dare not the other. Only one.place in book where he is addressing a group(hear me all) and writes the word cold. Teachers w/ropes. In this page he gives you answer to line 23, which is the message that you have solved the poem. Brave (Indian) and in the wood(in the saddle). Art+sculpture+Indian+bronze= The End of The Trail, it’s a Tired Indian on a horse. It was easy to put together but what shook my me to my foundations was how to use listen good. I had the final area, with a few points that would need to be checked, but I didn’t have the answer to line 21/22 so I kept at it. The solve for listen good confirmed my area and nailed down the spot. Think about this: your destination is small but it’s location is huge. He is hinting to two different places. I want to say so much more but you know….synonym for Brown is bronze & brass. Line 8 is used a few different ways which all work for this area and spot. No place is hole, for the meek is Earth/dirt. A hole in the ground but it is used another way also. It will take a book to explain it all but as the end ever draws closer, the poem tightens, reusing stanzas 2-4. There is a triangle type form to materials: poem/place/book. When you have a hint from book that matches a part of poem exquisitely then also points to a spot at area, you know you have solved a clue and moved forward. Look up synonyms of blaze and cease, right down anything that is mentioned in book. You will find these. Then reread those parts in book and look for aberrations. This may or may not help if you dont have right spot. I’m thinking no. The listen good worth cold is confirmation and blaze down to cease confirms exactly. Almost like it’s in reverse from line 22 back to line 14, IDK. Im still trying to organize what I have. One thing is clear, I have the confidence that he designed into the puzzle, 100%> yes I’m leaving soon. Want to end this.

      • Yes in a way, what you garner from the answer to listen good worth the cold comes from knowing what line 4 is hinting at. I wonder about you girl lol.

    • I believe you are on the right track, consider this: ” your destination is small but it’s location is huge.” The place where the chest is hidden is small, and the location of that place is the Rocky Mountains. Maybe I have oversimplified the meaning of this?

      As always imho.


  33. IMO it’s a riddle intertwined with words and geography. Fenn knows the geography of the area as well or better than anyone, and he likes to play around with words. This combination makes it especially tough.

    As I have posted here before I really believe it is an “I” riddle in the first stanza that points the searcher to the correct geographic area. Example of an “I” riddle:

    I am white when I am dirty, and black when I am clean. What am I?

    answer: blackboard

    • Aaron…I like the idea of an “I” riddle. Maybe it could even be an “eye” riddle.

  34. Ann – Didn’t Oz10 answer the coin riddle correctly above? I feel like that riddle is pretty well-known already.

  35. Focused, I believe that a solve would be more likely if you put a group of the right people in a room and brainstorm this thing. Two heads, or more, is indeed better than one.

    • Aaron;

      I have voiced my opinion on this subject before, but will post once again.

      Do you have a place that you think WWWsH? I know that I have. Will you give up on your WWWsH location and accept that mine is better? Probably not, and I know that I will not give up on mine.

      That being the case, if we can not agree on the first clue, how will we ever agree on nine? JMO – JDA

    • JDA, without knowing your WWWsH, it’s hard for me to answer that. I do like mine very much. I’m not talking about a scenario where people get together and try to sell everyone on their spot in an effort to prove they are right. A brainstorming session would entail people getting together, and just being open-minded about other peoples ideas. You basically get in a room and one person presents their thoughts. Everyone then does nothing but look for ways the presenter can be right. They look at the area, the poem, and how the clues can possibly fit. In this type of a session people there is no refuting ideas, only brainstorming possibilities. Each person there has an opportunity to present, and everyone works on each persons solve. Google brainstorming to see what I mean. It can be very powerful.

      I’m not saying it would be easy for everyone to do this, especially if not open-minded and focused so much on their own solution because they think they are the only person that is right. How far has this type of thinking gotten the search community so far? Two clues solved, not knowing where they were.

    • Hi Aaron;

      Thanks for your response.

      On paper, it sounds good – very ideal.

      I said that I like my WWWsH – Fact is, I have never disclosed it to anyone other than my search team, and never will – As long as I still think that I am in the right area. I know that others have searched my area, but I am not about to invite a hoard of other searchers to my area by disclosing it – even to a group of 6 or 8 in a meeting. 6 – 8 soon becomes 60 – 80 as everyone tells their friends and family – etc.

      As I said, on paper your idea sounds great – in reality, not so much.

      Over the past 4 + years, I have read countless interpretations of almost every line of the poem. Some I agree with, some not so much. Have I ever read something that caused me to change my location? Nope. Have I read something that caused me to look at my interpretation differently – probably, but bottom line, very little of what I have heard from others has caused me to amend my way of thinking about my spot – I guess I am just not a “Group Thinker.” – JMO – JDA

    • JDA, I know you feel very strongly about your area and your WWWsH. The reality is though that since most do not buy into other peoples solutions it is hard for me to believe that you would have other searchers show up in your area. By show of hands, how many have decided to base their searches on other peoples ideas? I don’t think you will find very many, but I’d be happy to be proven wrong. It would be good to know.

    • Aaron, I don’t know if you subscribe to any of the many YouTube live Vlogs out there, but they do exactly the kind of brainstorming you describe. There is a live chat feature, where literally hundreds of people can chime in with ideas. It can be very much a stream of consciousness excercise, so may not be the cup of tea for every searcher.

    • Hi Aaron… I think that your *brainstorming* premise has been attempted quite a few times… and so far I believe that the overall outcome has been on par with the singular approach. Who is to say what progress has or has not been made in either camp… but Jenny just posted a comment from Fenn that says the treasure is still where he hid it 10 years ago. So that pretty much sums it up.
      Just curious how your earlier attempts at a group think panned out… overall.

    • Hi Ken, I’d be interested to know more about how brainstorming has been used for this in the past. Please share!

      I’ve only been part of an online group, and no we obviously have not found the treasure. Ronny’s mention of VLOG’s sounds good, but I think the only way to really make this work would be to do it in person.

    • Hi Aaron,
      I can’t agree with you here – usually any bright idea has only one father or mother. Brainstorming can help only for idea discussion i.e. it never produce bright ideas. If you put a group of smart people in a room and ask them what is WWWH or hoB maybe they will give you some ideas. But how you will choose correct one?
      I usually solve all challenges (talking about http://www.innocentive.com) alone but sometimes I see that if my solution is awarded some other solvers also got awards. Did they produce same ideas or different? I will never know. I can only guess if the award was split for 3 parts and I got 50% – so other 2 ideas were not so good as mine but enough valuable.
      I agree with JDA – we all believe in our solutions for WWWH, CD, hoB etc. but we usually very sceptical about solutions of other searchers. I will never accept JDA solution for WWWH because I have my solution and I’m sure that it’s correct solution.
      Will I give up for my current hoB solution? Not sure that I will search there >30 times but at some number I will stop.

    • Hi Andy, not everyone will agree, and that’s okay. I think Albert Einstein would though: “A hundred times every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life are based on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that I must exert myself in order to give in the same measure as I have received and am still receiving.” Many of those bright ideas that had one father or one mother, as you say, only came up from what others had done, or said before them. You cannot invent a car without first inventing the wheel.

      And to answer your question: “If you put a group of smart people in a room and ask them what is WWWH or hoB maybe they will give you some ideas. But how you will choose correct one?”
      It is not about choosing the right one. People brainstorm ideas one at a time until everyone’s idea about WWWH or whatever the case my be are all fleshed out. It is not about picking one idea. Please google brainstorming if you do not understand it.

    • Aaron,
      I have googled it and got:
      group discussion to produce ideas or solve problems.
      “brainstorming can generate some wonderful ideas”
      Well, in my practice it never happened i.e. group discussion never produced any bright ideas or solved problems. In rare cases when it happened the idea was proposed by one participant and other participants immediately start to pretend that they are also fathers/mothers of this idea 🙂 Maybe you know other cases but I’m not. I have salary and additional incomes only because I am thinking and solving challenges. But I’m doing it alone. Of course Einstein is right about using data that was generated by all people that lived before. But again: ideas are generated only by single individual brain. Other people can only discuss it, evaluate etc.
      For me Forrest chase is just another challenge – I am solving it not because of TC content (even never interested in it) but because it’s very difficult challenge. Exactly what I like to solve. One more thing: final solution needs BOTG and I like hiking in wild places out of human trails. I never meet people in my search areas because these areas are very isolated. But sometimes I see their traces and it’s sign for me that most likely it’s wrong place.

    • ..brainstorming this thing would be like trying to climb a rope with three people tied to your belt, I think. None of us could even give away our general solves to another one of us because we all have the correct one already.

        • Makes you wonder if the sort of person likely to solve the Chase isn’t out trying to find a cure for cancer instead!

          • It doesn’t make me wonder that because I think nobody is likely to solve the puzzle without focus, interest, objectives and action plans free from other commitments.

            But yes about the Princess Bride.

          • Muset,

            Awe darn! So you are saying I don’t have a chance? 🙁

            Maybe there is a Wesley out there capable of storming the Chase! Interesting how each one of the trio had something to contribute in the overall rescue of the princess. And they even managed to take care of the six fingered fellow. Inconceivable!


  36. Focused – To attempt to answer your question, in my opinion the difficulty is due to the large possible area in which the treasure could be hidden.

    I found this article about the first person who is believed to have hiked the Continental Divide Trail from Mexico to Canada very interesting and think that others may find this to be an interesting read too: https://www.backpacker.com/stories/was-this-swedish-immigrant-the-first-continental-divide-thru-hiker

    The point I get is that it took a very physically fit man 3 entire months to walk from one end of the U.S. Rockies to the other; and that’s basically walking a bee-line with no major detours to the east or west. The search area is absolutely gigantic and the Rocky Mountains hide many special locations within their folds. I think that just on this site alone, there is substantial evidence of how many different places in the Rockies can be argued to fit the poem.

    • This sounds like a great hike for after the treasure chest gets revealed. Not sure if you could get away carrying a rifle and seasoning, but that’d be the way to go.

  37. Aaron, JDA

    For two or more to attempt a solve I think both need to agree one one thing first;
    In the Q&A regarding many WWsH in the RMs…
    Do you think they are all of the same? or different?… Not unlike… there are billions of blazes.

    All of the same WWsH would need at least a single representation below SF… While different would not require anything matching below.

    So, the next question is; why bother saying the comment if it didn’t make a difference?

    • Again Seeker, being able to agree on any point has nothing to do with brainstorming. It is about being open minded and coming up with new ideas. Check this out about Brainstorming:

      Basically, there are four rules of doing it properly:
      1) No judgements. This is the first rule of creativity in general, really. …
      2) Think freely. As I said before, no matter how crazy it is; while brainstorming, ideas are neither silly nor impossible. …
      3) Big numbers. The more ideas, the better. …
      4) Many heads are better than one.

    • Aaron.

      Eventually the brainstorming need to be collective. Isn’t the idea to actually come to a consensus?

    • Allow me to add;
      Just because a group declares something doesn’t make the one who disagrees wrong, right?

    • Seeker, the idea isn’t necessarily to come to a consensus. It is to trigger ideas. Let me give an example of how this could work.

      JDA explains how in the wood helped him finds his WWWsH, and how it applies to the rest of the poem. Everyone chimes in with different ideas related to it. Everyone brainstorms and talks about different solve methods based on JDA’s idea. The look at a map and talk about how the clues could feasibly fit in, regardless of anybody agreeing if anyone is right. The point is not to agree, but talk about what is possible. This kind of open minded thinking and discussion can lead to new thoughts and ideas that could possibly lead to a correct one. Maybe JDA walks away with lots more possibilities and nobody really likes his spot, but helped with brainstorming.

      I think this answers your second question as well.

    • “ All of what you say can be found here on the Blog” – JMO – JDA
      Are you saying that’s a good thing or not? It’s ok that those things are found here on the blog?

    • Aaron,

      There is only a slight difference to the blogs doing to what you’re saying vs. a closed door meeting, idea. Grant ya JDA *may* tell all in a closed door meeting vs. blurting it out on an open web site…
      Folks have, over the years brainstormed by emails, and gatherings with no real advancement. LOL we gone from two clues solved to four clues [possibly] but the kicker is [ by fenn’s comments ] they still don’t know they have anything solid.

      Ya want to start a conversation about how some can solve close to half the poem and not truly understand they did..?.. I’ll show up with a case of your favorite beer and chat the snots out of why…

    • Aaron;

      For me, this Blog is my group meeting. I have learned a lot about how different people think. Some, I am amazed at, and others I just shake my head.

      I have offered a few of my insights, but have held the “Important” information pretty close to my chest, and would do the same in a group meeting (IF I were to ever attend one – which I doubt).

      Yes, I have indicated that “in the wood” led me to my WWWsH – BUT, I have NEVER said why. All I have said is that there is an obscure definition of these words that led me to WWWsH.

      How would stating the above thoughts in a meeting lead to an in-depth discussion and bring up other ideas?

      Given my above paragraph, what can you add? What insight have I provided? None that I can see.

      Care to comment on what I have disclosed about “In the wood”? I don’t see that there is much to discuss. IF I were to say what that obscure definition was, THEN I could see where it might generate a discussion.

      Some might say, “WOW JD that is insightful.” You, on the other hand, might say “WOW JD, that is idiocy. That makes NO sense at all.

      Another might say, “HUMMM – never thought of that – It doesn’t do anything for my solve, but “interesting”.


    • Obviously in a group meeting like Aaron is speaking of, it wouldn’t be filled with searchers that are as reluctant as JDA to discuss their interpretations of the poem or book.

      That’s not hard to figure out.

    • You’re correct JDA, there could be mixed reactions to your “in the wood” idea. I don’t know that you would even need to share how you came up with it, unless it relates to the overall solution, and others would need to know it to help. My thoughts are more along the lines of brainstorming where to go from there. People do not have to agree on anything to brainstorm ideas, and solutions related to someone’s solve.

    • Seeker, you said “Folks have, over the years brainstormed by emails, and gatherings with no real advancement.”

      I know, I’ve had communications via emails, and in a private blog, and none have led anywhere. Part of the reason is that they were not true brainstorming sessions. I cannot emphasize enough how different this is in person in a group environment as opposed to sitting and mulling over one persons ideas, thinking about ways that could be wrong or could be right. A real brainstorming session involves no judgement, and a free flow of ideas. They end up being very creative and fun.

    • Oh and by the way, I’d be happy to talk with you over beers, though the beers I drink are a bit too strong to drink a case. A six pack will do!

    • Aaron;

      You did NOT “brainstorm” my In the wood statement.

      You want a group brainstorming session, and yet have no comments about my in the wood statement when I invite you to “Brainstorm” the idea. THAT is why I can not see any advantage to “Group think” or “Brainstorming” sessions. JMO JDA

    • JDA, I was talking about an in person brainstorming session, and ideally with NDA’s in place.

      As a side note, I think I know where you are searching, and I do not want to reveal that. Another good reason to do this in person.

    • In these brainstorming sessions wouldn’t the domineering type personalities just take over? Also, I know if someone started assigning number values to letters or treating the poem like a Sudoku or trying to find diagonal or upside down words, I would immediately lose interest. You’d be just as likely to solve the poem on your own as to find find the exact combination of personality types that would work well together in a brainstorming session.
      For example, I say that halt means to stop and then start up again. Some think that halt means just to stop, or that a merge can be a halt. I wouldn’t continue listening unless someone agreed that halt is a temporary stop. Some wouldn’t listen unless you agreed with them that “D”means 4 and “O” means 15 so so canyon down is 15 minus 4, or 11 miles from WWWH, blah blah blah. IMO (9 plus 13 plus 15)

      • Warlock, I would think good reasoning would take over.

        What some might think is a detriment might be the opposite. The group would have more options to search. I suppose they would somehow figure out which idea is more reasonable to search at some point.

        There’s no restriction that each member has to search botg each idea that is brought up…another plus that hasn’t been brought up.

    • Good points Warlock. Doing this requires some open-mindedness sort of. If someone brings up something like a definition of halt, or numbers, and you lose interest well this is not for you. To brainstorm, we as a group would come up with imaginative ways that it could work. You have to sort of forget about your opinions about certain things for a bit. You work together on an idea regardless of an opinion, and build off of others thoughts and ideas. It requires free thinking and imagination. The good thing is everyone could get a shot to have their idea explored in an open minded, non judgmental session. You won’t get that on the blog.

      Would it lead to anything? Who knows, likely not to be honest. But, I think it allows for everyone’s ideas to be explored and one could lead to the right idea, or trigger something that leads to the right idea.

    • Aaron;

      You have my email address IF you honestly want to “Brainstorm” – NDA’a Sure shows a lot of “Openness” and “Freedom” 🙂 makes me feel right at ease – JDA

    • Hi again Aaron;

      I do not expect to hear from you, so, based on your last post, and your NDA comment – Sounds to me like you have run out of ideas, and are Fishin’ for some new ideas to kick start your solve – No offense meant – JMO – Just “Brainstormin’ ” You probably have a different opinion, but don’t feel that this (the blog) is the place to voice those opinions – although you are willing to “Brainstorm” the idea of Brainstormin’ JDA

  38. Aaron, maybe there is a disconnect between the crowd that wants to solve the riddle and the crowd that just want to find the gold.

    • I agree with that logic, pen and paper before metal detector and malatov. A good solve is the solution and then the gold just happens because it got figured out.

    • Thank you for the link, Jenny. The way Mr. Fenn answers questions can make one go crazy. 🙂

    • Thanks Jenny…
      Seems to me that answer provides a couple of useful insights…and an answer to one question that he has been vague about since the start of the chase…
      1. Forrest has not eliminated Brown trout
      2. The chest is still where he hid it
      3. Forrest hid the chest when he was 79, not 80

      Ohh…and a good tip I think…don’t trust Reddit

      • Dal.. I picked up on the “more than 10 years ago” also. Interesting that he would put that out there after so much time has elapsed. Thanks Jenny…

          • Seems like it…. unless the comment was a typical Fenn generalization left to interpretation. On the more firm side of the equation…. those featured Q’s give the man plenty of time and the choice to answer it.

      • In my opinion, brown trout and the hiding timeline are trivial matters compared to the relief of having Forrest’s confirmation, for the entire search community, that the chest is still resting where he hid it.

    • Thanks for sharing Jenny. It is reassuring to know the treasure is still safely hidden. Sending well wishes to searchers this search season. Be safe.

      Side note: three cheers for the chase creating a beautiful marriage – congrats to Sacha and Jason. Love conquers all! You’ve found treasure in each other like Forrest and Peggy.

  39. Seems like we are all chomping at the bit to get out soon and test our solves with BOTG. And that made me think about something that I wonder if anyone else has thought about.

    Hypothetical (Unlikely) situation: You feel very confident your solve is it 😉 What if you are at your “last clue solve area” only to find another searcher/group at the same spot? Do you acknowledge each other and go about your solve hoping you find it first? Does it now become a race? Do you join forces? Seems it would be a bit awkward to me even if that spot was not the hidey spot. And some people may become “not too friendly” if you know what I mean.


      • Aaron, you’re on. Let’s find a graveyard and do it like in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Of course whoever is playing the Tuco role would have to have an empty can. 🙂

          • My hopes and dreams for a rapid solution are buried nearby. Maybe I should put in a headstone to commemorate the spot.

    • Hello Geysegirl. I thought this happened to me during a search. I waited the other couple out by sitting down as they did in the shade and we all ate our snack. I took tiny nibbles from the granola bar until they left first. They may not have been searchers, but because there wasn’t a neon sign saying they weren’t, I didn’t want to take a chance. I’ve become much calmer in regards to the search, thank goodness.

      • pdenver – I can see that scenario playing out and it’s rather humorous. I think that similar encounters may prove to be the same. 🙂

      • I ran into someone at my Secret Valley Creek search that I thought may be a searcher. He was alone with a backpack, and either just headed off trail just to do some hiking, or he was a searcher. Who knows. Lucky for him he didn’t get the bear spray 🙂

      • pdenver – We had a weird guy sit down on a picnic bench in the day use area out Baker’s Hole, closest to that interpretive sign on the shoreline. He was clearly listening to us talk there.

        Then, he suddenly was right behind us, as we walked out past the YNP boundary, and around that curve to the left. Then he asked if we were on The Chase, and said it was his search strategy to follow searchers to their hidey spots.

        I made a polite excuse about needing to leave to get to our Opening Day fishing on the Firehole River. Then I found that Hebgen Lake District Ranger we had me earlier, to make sure he talked to Larry, the camp manager, to get this creepy guy to leave!

        • Sounds scary – Sorry – There are creeps everywhere.

          P. Poor strategy – Following searchers who have not found the treasure – Guess he hopes you will, and then take it for himself.

          Knowing he is behind you, wouldn’t you go right past where you think it is??? I know I would – JDA

          • JDA – I am a fairly intuitive woman with big boundaries, who often hikes alone to remote areas. My RADAR is pretty accurate, when it comes to strange people. Not sure how I would do with a Big ol’ Grizz, though.

        • Holy cow, Lisa! Gives me the goosebumps! Obviously hearing you talk about the Chase, you couldn’t say no about it, but hearing that he follows people to their hidey spot is certainly creepy. I wouldn’t have gone to mine and I would have left, too. Did this happen last year?

          • The hidey spot trolls, old spice cologne and patchuili oil should help fend them off. Don’t forget bear can!!

          • I like both of those scents, Brian u. Bear spray is a good deterrent for both bear and human.

          • pdenver – That was at Baker’S Hole on Memorial Day Weekend in 2019. We were surrounded by the campground manager, Larry, his family, and campers staying in at least half of the campsites. And that Hebgen Lake District Ranger watched my friend wade across the Madison River that Saturday morning, on her first run. Felt like a pretty safe bet to us.

          • Hello Lisa. It’s amazing it happened with all those people around. Was the river running a little high because of Spring runoff? My family and I were at Barn’s Hole in the middle of July looking for a good fishing spot and felt there wasn’t one. Water seemed too low. Did see two young men speeding on their bikes, quickly left them behind and headed West/Northwest from where we were. They got to their area and began crossing the river to get to the island in the middle. I giggled because I knew then they were treasure hunters. 🙂

          • pdenver – The Madison River was up over my knees, when we crossed that Sunday morning. The current felt intense. I was wearing my friend’s studded wading boots and using a ski pole to steady myself with each step. She was wearing trail runners with the other ski pole. She is an avid fly fisher, having been taught by Scott Schnebly to fish for Steelhead in the rough Spring waters of the Salmon River in Lower Stanley.

            We had a picnic that Saturday evening at that table next to Barns Hole #1. Then we met a couple in a truck, who showed us pics of large Grizz couples, who were all over the Barns Holes area, just the day before.

          • Hello Lisa. Quite the rush of water flow. I went into the Yellowstone River with my waders and only went to just below my knee and the pull was strong. I’m a short person, so it doesn’t take much depth to feel it. I was there to do some fly fishing. Wasn’t successful other than having a good time and showing my Dad my “skills” I had, or lack of. (Giggle.) It appears the grizzlies knew where the fishing was good at that time. 🙂

        • On my first BOTG, There was a guy in a an old beater panel van with no windows who seemed to be following me. Gave me the creeps. Made me think of Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs.

    • What would be the odds is what I figur. I had all sorts of people at my spot. I just did like in town and seen if they were sketchy. There was only one cool cat, this guy with hearing aids and dogs. Lots of weird people on the mountains, I seen all sorts of stuff.

      • Brian u –
        “What would be the odds is what I figur.”
        I’m thinking as time goes by that the odds are pretty good actually. Now that does not have to mean that indulgence is getting closer to being found, but rather that many are coming to the same wrong conclusions!

        • I think if you are in an isolated area where someone is not likely to stumble upon the chest, you should probably assume that anyone else is in such an area is not there by coincidence. I know no one would just happen to be in my search area. IMHO

          • When all the treasure hunters are gone I bet it’s the nearest place on Earth and has scenery cooler the Yellowstone. I bet it’s probably something Sloan would’ve painted, or maybe Sloane.

    • Geysergirl – I’d try to be the first one to start walking towards the spot. And if I heard footsteps start up behind me, then I’d start sprinting! It doesn’t get to be a more thrilling Chase than that! 😉

  40. TTOTC friends, after 7 years of interacting with you on Dal & Jenny’s blogs I consider you friends. As such, I’m asking for a favor.

    Those of you who believe in prayer, would you kindly pray for my 25 yr old son Mark and our family? He Lives and works on the east coast and was exposed to confirmed Corona virus via a coworker the past 2 weeks. We spent last weekend snow skiing with our son which means we may also be exposed. It will be 2 weeks before Symptoms show up, or we are certain to be clear.

    Your kindness is appreciated,


    • Thoughts and prayers are with you and your family, 42. Please keep us informed.

    • A kind intro 42 and back at ya. Consider the prayers in motion for all of you and remember to always keep those positive thoughts flowing!

    • 42–
      I’m praying for your son and your family. May God bless and heal you all.

    • I hope all is well for you and your family. We’re sending prayers your way from Texas.

    • 42 , you and your family will be on my Sunday School Class prayer list , all of you will be prayed for daily . May the LORD bless you all .

    • God Bless you and your family! Prayers have been said and will continue for you.

    • I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s basically a little stronger flu.
      This is no bubonic or septicemic plague.

    • You are in my prayers.

      Not sure if you hate uninvited ideas… but

      I am constantly exposed to the public in a retail environment
      and each time I feel tell-tale tickle I bomb it with zinc lozenges, one zinc supplement and lots of Vitamin C.

      I have had very good results even as coworkers get sick.

      Praying for everyone to be well and stay well.


      Ps Hint: The zinc lozenges always reduce my ability to taste food. Eat something delicious first for a base then take the Zinc.

    • 42…if you dont mind a bit of advice. Start gargling with a strong salt water solution at least twice a day. I second the opinion of Vitamin C. I take 4000 mg a day all thru winter. I work in close contact with very sick, immunocompromised patients and am exposed to everything you can imagine. I would also start dosing with Echinacea, drink loads of fluids preemptively. I will be keeping you and your family in my thoughts. Hang tight and good luck.

    • 42,
      I’m sorry to hear about your son and your possible exposure too… the power of prayer is an amazing thing. I my friend will pray for good health for you and your family… if you need a friend, you know where to find me…..
      Take care my friend…. until next time… see ya


    • 42,

      I’m sorry to hear this. It’s going to get interesting, and I’m praying for you and your son. God Bless!


    • Hi 42,

      I’m sorry.
      And please accept my healing wishes.
      I believe everything will be fine.

      Unknown effects of the danger we are facing,
      Due to its uncertain features, our attention
      should be different from an ordinary virus infection.
      In fact, it requires us also to take seriously the resistance and mutation mechanisms developed by virus infections that we call ordinary.

      In this context,
      I would like to convey a few things that should be avoided.
      (I apologize in advance for those already written.)
      (If you are working, please inform your doctor at workplace)

      .Eating out,
      .Water with uncertain source
      .Inadequate cooked foods.
      .One-sided meal (only meat, only vegetables …)
      .Nonnatural foods,
      .Sugar and carbonated drinks,
      .Canned, chips etc.
      .Additive meat products (such as sausages),
      .Foods containing direct sugar,
      .Stay hungry and overeat.
      .Some food, behavior and environments those your body does not
      recognize. (in group, outside)
      .Excessive exercise, heavy housework,
      .Very cold and very hot environments, large temperature difference,
      .Opening mouth while coughing and sneezing
      (using a counter mask, if there is no mask, mouth to close with a
      handkerchief or with your arm)
      .Individuals with chronic illness
      (especially systemic disease.)
      .Contact with large groups of people at risk
      (such as the elderly, pregnant women, young children, to prevent
      .Alcool and tabacco etc.
      .Smoke and poorly ventilated environments,
      .Contact with chemicals,
      .Detergent residues in laundry and dishes,
      .Boring and distressing environments,
      .Negative thoughts…

      As the list increases, it may not make you feel good.
      Those are all what we have already to do is
      in health and any disease actually.

      Take care of yourselves.
      Be in all good powers.

      We are waiting for your good news.

      Ali Kemal

      • Among the things I wrote are things you don’t need to avoid in health, such as doing exercise and eating in safe places.

        I trust your common sense.


      • So many great ideas on how to still have fun with the chase in light of CV-19.

        I’d like to see our chase pals KPRO/COW/AGK/Cynthia collaborate to bring some silly fun to this tightly bonded community in these very dark times. I suggest that they YouTube 24×7 indefinitely …marathons, never ending chasopoly games, clips, battles of silly things, broadcasting searcher poker games, etc., to help keep searchers spirits up and off the box of trinkets until the pandemic passes. They could run it like a relay race…a 24 hour marathon, followed by a 24 hour poker game next, followed by a 24 hour chasopoly game, followed by a 24 hour reading of Cynthias book, followed by a 24 hour agk hump, followed by 24 hours of listing to Cynthia read her hundreds of search notes from her hundreds of searches, followed by…. Like a wheel, a loop, over and over like reading ttotc and the poem. Is pool the loop, or are marathon laps our pals? I say a 24×7 marathon loop by our pals is best.

        Come on you hard working lovers of bringing fun to the chase! Step up and claim your role with pride. Your gonna earn the value of that chest … Yes indeed. Say you will. 24×7 chase YouTube from the fabulous five!!!!! Forget the box of trinkets and running around the Rockies like mules and goats in the name of safety. (Wink, , wink like you did last night KPRO).

        Oh please post this Dal…the community needs these five hero’s now more than ever! They are truly the salvation of the future chase community.

        All in favor…say aye. Serve your chase community as you love doing, but on steroids to save us all from the virus!!! Safety matters. Say you will fab five!

    • Meanwhile, y’all should quarantine yourselves, not go anywhere (such as shopping), etc. If you have the virus, nobody else wants it from you. It’s
      somewhat surprising how many things we touch “out there”. I made a list, and
      it includes shopping carts and baskets, buttons at crosswalks, buttons to summon an elevator, buttons in the elevator, gas pump handles, the handles of
      windshield scrubbers, separator bars on the conveyor belt in a store, doorknobs,
      door handles, garbage/recycling containers, mail, etc. Please add to this list, folks who are concerned. As always, IMO.

      • I forgot store receipts that have been touched by the store employee(s). Not to mention EVERY item in EVERY store, library, etc.

        This makes me seem like I’m over-reacting, huh? Maybe I am. I am now in the habit of washing my hands when I get home from anywhere.

        Taking vitamin C probably wouldn’t hurt. I do that anyway, regardless of Covid19, because vitamin C strengthens the immune system, I believe.

        OH!, I should say something about Fenn’s Treasure Hunt, huh?
        The TC probably wasn’t exposed to Covid19. But things (such as
        gas pump handles) on the way there may have been. And since it’s
        typically “the elderly” who are most vulnerable to the virus, we should
        do things to make our bodies seem like we are not “the elderly”. Some
        things to consider might include exercise and a “healthful” diet.

        All in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

      • Its a tricky situation. It looks like I cold or flue. Where I work we cannot call in sick for a minor cold flue. Workin with a mighty thin crew and half have colds. The virus has now made it to my workplace as I knew it would. I Kinda just want to get it, and get it over with. Odds are still in favor and not too bad, but it is going to roll through. g

        • It and others like it, do and will have a purpose. Maybe greater than that of man. g

  41. Thoughts and prayers 42. Speaking of kind words. I was not very kind to Boatman in my comments the other day. I apologize for being rude. I have great respect for anyone that has been in the chase as long or longer than myself. g

  42. I started recently a reread of TTOTC. I think I see the big hint, but will continue through and look for a bigger one, but for my solve this kinda nails it down. A good dose of conformation and or bias can certainly brighten ones day. g

  43. 42,

    Sorry to hear of the unfortunate circumstances. Wishing you and the family all the best.


  44. In Defense of Collaboration:

    With the possible exception of the serendipitous discovery, no idea ever truly belongs to a singe individual. Those who would believe otherwise are merely kidding themselves. For those who enjoy driving themselves mad proceeding under the belief that they are figuring out the Chase all on their own, what are you even doing on a blog such as this if not seeking out something outside of your own thoughts and ideas? And to the naysayers of collaborative efforts, I give you the vast majority of modern Nobel Prizes (and other such awards).

    Whether it be academics, social clubs and organizations, or most sports (although even individual sports such as golf, tennis and many Olympic events require teams behind each athlete for success), collaboration has always generated greater success than rogue efforts. There is a fine line between confidence in ones abilities and overestimating ones abilities.

    There are certainly a variety of ways the Chase can be approached. Whether you wish to proceed solo, or are seeking collaboration, we should all at least be able to respect differing views in terms of the Chase as well as our approaches. Personally, I have observed more negative feedback (greater criticism?) than positive feedback (simply recognizing different ideas) from my short time here. And I say that purely from an observational standpoint and not as anything against anyone in particular.

    We are all in the same boat rowing in a variety of directions. While we don’t need to row in unison, or even in the same direction for that matter, we also shouldn’t be dismissive of the ways others are rowing. And I am not sure I have used the best wording here to share the thoughts I am trying to convey but there you have it. If I have been guilty of my own criticisms, I apologize to anyone offended. I hope my words here are taken lightly as well as the thoughts in my posts.

    All IMO.


    • Ann, you seem to forget that the creator of this treasure hunt did not collaborate with anyone. He alone wrote the poem; he wrote it in solitude, without advice or suggestions or feedback from anyone else.

      Forrest’s poem was not written by some committee.

      I think it is entirely possible that the finder will also be someone who works alone, in solitude and without advice or ideas from the group, or as it is commonly referred to >>> the “search community”.

      Never underestimate the false assumptions that can be derived from group-think.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • Ken, sounds like you have never read the poem.

        It clearly states that someone hints of their secret.

        If we are suppose to precisely follow to find the treasure…maybe we are to do the same.

        • FD;

          Are we reading the same poem?
          “As I have>>> And with MY>>>I can keep>>>No paddle up YOUR>>>If YOU’ve>>>I must go>>>I already know>>>I’ve done it>>>I’m weak>>>YOUR effort>>>If YOU’ve been wise>>>I give you title. Where do you get the OTHER person that hints of their secret?

          As “I” have gone alone in there (Singular)
          And with my treasures bold (More than one treasure)
          “I” can keep my secret where (Singular)
          and hint of riches new and old. (Maybe an understood “I” can)

          Sorry, I just do not see (or hear) another “someone” hinting of their secret – Care to help me along? Just askin’ – JDA

          • JDA, I didn’t say “the OTHER person” or “another “someone””.

            I said “someone” which can mean the author of the poem.

        • I took it for granted that everyone knows that the author (Forrest) was hinting – and we all know about ass-umptions – 🙂 JDA

          • JDA, that has nothing to do with the point I made.

            And you might want to think about the comparative nature of the poem word “As” to further answer your question above.

          • …in the sense that the main point is we might have to do what f did.

      • Ken in tx, the fact that ff wrote the poem without help has nothing to do with the solving of it. Of course, it is possible for one person to solve it and hundreds of thousands of individuals have been trying for ten years now. I thought it was a fact that team effort has better chances of completing a task than a solo practitioner.

        Don’t confuse group-think with mob-mentality.

        • Oz ~ *Don’t confuse group-think with mob-mentality.*

          Right… Most of the time the mob mentality is more about proving a point, rather than, discussing an issue, and highly depended on a precondition notion.
          However, can the idea of “group thinking” be done at this stage? IDK..
          It would be very hard press imo to find a few that could actually start from scratch, line of thinking… everyone who has put effort into this will want *their* idea to be included no matter what.
          Not to pick on anyone…but for example… I highly doubt many will ever change their locations, their process, etc. I think many would feel the same way about SomEthInG they don’t want to change.
          IMO.. this might be the lack of “adjustment” fenn may have implied.

          For example; A few guys went out one day 4 wheeling. The truck got a flat tire but unfortunately the jack was no where to be found. For many hours they attempted to lift the truck by many different means.. until they decided to call it quits and hike out. When home, they told a buddy about the trying day, who replied; Instead of lifting the truck they should have blocked up axle and dug down below the tire.

          The mob mentality, or even group thinking, had those guys doing it the way they thought; the way they were always told they should do… lift the truck tire up off the ground.
          So, IF all anyone will ever except is one way of doing something… the job will never get done.

          • Seeker, that’s it and thanks for illustrating the point with the flat tire example.

          • Speaking of flat tires:

            A guy gets a flat tire outside of an insane asylum. The guy jacks up the car, and takes the lug nuts off. He puts the lug nuts in the hubcap. As he starts to put on the spare tire, he knocks the hubcap, with the lug nuts over a cliff. The guy is in a panic and cusses and screams about how stupid he is, and how there is no way he can fix his flat.

            An inmate of the asylum listens and suggests that he take one lug nut off of each of the three remaining wheels, use then to mount the spare, and that that ought to get him to town if he drives careful

            The man thanks the guy then says – That was brilliant – why are you in an asylum ? The man responds, “I may be crazy, but that doesn’t mean I’m stupid.

            Kinda reminds me of myself and a few other searchers. We MAY be crazy, but that doesn’t mean we are stupid – 🙂 Happy hunting to all – 🙂 – JDA

          • JDA, your story about asylum guy had me in tears. The line between brilliance and insanity is impercetable some times. But so can see that invisible line and hope to harness the ability to ride the line like a wave.

            I believe this is what Marvin Fenn meant by “grab every banana”… (aka insane person) and support them to learn to ride the wave of their brilliance. Lemons to lemonade. IMO

            I say with great authority, insanity is very painful, isolating, and bullies target them.

          • That was funny JDA. Some are not crazy but stupid and others just crazy stupid…

          • IveFlownHome;

            I agree with your last line. Sorry you had to go down that road – I know, been down it myself after Nam – JDA

      • Let’s assume we have 6 brainstormers who solve the poem and find the chest. Kippy solved 6 clues, including the first and last, and found the chest himself when they all went to the spot. Kenny solved 1 clue and Kappy solved 2. Kody, Kermit and Koko tried to contribute but they kept turning letters into numbers and dividing the sum total by the number of words in the last paragraph of Scrapbook 117. I like to pick on the numbers nerds!

        Do you divide 2 million dollars evenly amongst the 6, 3 of whom contributed nothing but distractions? This brainstorming and group thinking sounds good on paper but I think it’s a pie in the sky concept that couldn’t realistically work in the Chase. Put a bunch of people together to try and find Indulgence who agree to split evenly no matter what, and you’re more likely to end up with a “Fred C. Dobbs” mentality than a group think mentality. Start googling unless you’re a Bogie fan.

        • I don’t think it’s that hard of a concept to figure out how to divide it up. Evenly like you said and prbly what they agreed to before they get started.

          No need to put spin on it if the contract is solid.

          • FD – My point is that no such scenario would ever play out because once the light bulb goes off for 1 or 2 in the group, they won’t hang around to hand over millions to their dead weight associates. Your answer has a pink bow on it and I believe is also not realistic anyway.

            It’s inviting trouble to team up with others when millions are potentially at stake. I know, I know. Everyone is just here for the adventure of it all and will probably just give it all to charity if they ever find it. Signing a contract with a brainstorming group? That’s trouble. Trouble with a T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool! That last line is another movie reference, albeit unrelated to treasure hunting .

      • Ken (in Texas),

        Such a searcher will never be found here, as their presence alone already makes them part of a “community” as you put it. Reading this, or any other such similar information automatically disqualifies their solve as being their own. I think you would be hard pressed to find ANY finder working in solitude. They’d literally have to come across a copy of the book in bookstore and nothing else (including the internet) and not ask anyone else about it. That’s a tall order in today’s age. Possible? Sure, but only because statistically it is. Realistically? Probably not.

        In terms of false assumptions that can be derived from group-think, they are nothing more than an accumulation of individual false assumptions derived from individuals (or solo searchers if you will) that have met and shared them.

        The fact that the FF created the Chase all by himself does not lead credence to the notion that a single searcher is likely to find it on there own as opposed to with others. That is a false assumption Ken! And if you didn’t feel their was any value in the search community (or their thoughts), I must ask: what are you doing here then? You are a part of that in which you suggest may not be necessary.

        I agree it is possible for a solo solve. I just don’t think it is likely. Furthermore, I side with those who feel the exchange of ideas and information is likely to be more fruitful than the alternative. All IMO.


    • Very well stated Ann O’

      I am a loner, but freely admit that I have been helped by what I have read here on the Blog. There is much to be learned from the thoughts of others – People like you that take the time to share – Thanks for your posts – JMO – JDA

    • @Ann – Hello again. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. At times we have been on opposite sides of this or that topic of debate here on HOD so I wanted to let you know that I am not holding any grudges, etc. for any differences of opinion we may, or are yet to, have as we explore TTOTC.

    • Hi Ann,

      I appreciate your holistic efforts.
      And I apologize in advance if I disturb you with my words.

      1.”(although even individual sports such as golf, tennis and many Olympic events require teams behind each athlete for success)
      2. “collaboration has always generated greater success than rogue efforts. “)

      I have a couple of points rolling in my mind and I have difficulty
      interpreting the two phrases that I cite from you.
      1. What if the team serves an outlaw effort, knowingly or unknowingly?
      2. “Can all the rogue efforts be bad?” or can it be said “All team efforts are good”?
      3. And in this context, nobel connection …

      Maybe someones had allready shared something sincere

      For example,
      You first asked a question about fifty-five cents,
      then you said “Well done” to an answerer who responded positively (maybe it was a nobel candidate).
      In your next message,
      you wrote, “No one could answer my question, …. I’m waiting”.
      In fact, a group of members had responded. (wrong or correct; the right answer you want or not)
      Then another member asked a question that supported him.

      What I do not understand is that if the message owner (or owners, and readers) who (IYO) is ignored for the holistic work that you strive with passion, does not write you anymore, should the rogue effort might be counted? (of course the other member too)

      How can group work proceed under these conditions?
      It was like a new riddle for me too.JMO

      I wish you could do the work you hope for.
      Healthy and safe for all of us, allways.

      -Ali Kemal

      • Ali,

        Thank you for responding. I am not sure I quite follow your thoughts but I will attempt a reply.

        So when I mention a team behind individuals in terms of sports I meant such people as coaches, trainers, etc., etc.

        In terms of the outlaw question, are you asking about the success of the outlaw team or just providing an example of team efforts producing harmful results? I suppose it would depend on the goal of such a team. Is an individual more successful at creating chaos than say a gang or organization? Probably not. Can they create chaos on their own? Sure. Could more chaos be created with larger numbers? Absolutely. Numbers involved are not necessarily correlative to the success or failure of the task at hand. That would likely depend in large part upon the task. In the case of individual sports, it’s ultimately up the success of the individual athlete. But that success, or failure, is built upon the work of the team behind the athlete. The same would be true of an outlaw crew.

        I don’t believe I ever suggested that rogue efforts were bad. Or that all team efforts were good. Even those working on the Manhattan Project were struck by the repercussions of their work. Not sure what else could be said here.

        So regarding the coin riddle exchange: I did indeed post the riddle. Having taken it from a book I mentioned in one of my posts “Unriddling” by Alvin Schwartz, I was looking for the same response the author was looking for. I had made a subsequent post after noticing no one had suggested an answer as of the time of that subsequent post. Then later I noticed Oz10 post and commended him on the coming up with the answer sought. I will only note that there has been degree of delay in the time from when my posts are composed to when they appear as posted. So any discrepancy in the order of appearance is likely due to such delay.

        I have read over your last few questions and admittedly I am unable to ascertain clarity in what you may be trying to ask based solely on the wy they are written. I would gladly give a response to them if you could maybe clarify what you are asking in a way that makes sense to me.

        Here is a feeble attempt to address the “message owner” question. Do you mean to ask: If an individuals comments go unanswered or remain ignored by others, should their individual efforts be discounted? If that is your question I would say no. The whole idea behind exchanging thoughts and ideas is that no ones thoughts or ideas should be ignored or overlooked. It might be the case that those are the very thoughts and ideas everyone else may be seeking to attain, or the results thereof.

        I apologize if moving from posting the riddle to reaching its conclusion was too quick. If you wish to enjoy a plethora of such riddles you may find a copy of the book I used or any number of others available these days. I did not post the riddle for the sake of riddling. I was attempting to provoke the thoughts of others in terms of what their thoughts were on the kind of riddle they believe may be involved in the Chase. The riddle was just a lead up to the real question I had.

        I hope this reply helps clarify things for you and if you have any further questions I will answer them as best as I can. Thanks again for sharing and all IMO of course.


        • Ann,

          I appreciate your intention and effort to activate the group methodologically.

          Thank you for answering the questions I asked in detail to understand you correctly.
          -Ali Kemal

    • Ann – I can appreciate your thoughts and views on collaboration, and in certain situations I think it works. In particular when the outcome of such collaboration benefits the group as a whole. I mean, isn’t that what we are all doing here?

      Now I know that your intent is to solve the poem, but obviously, many are interested in the actual chest. So perhaps if your group was made up of “solvers only”, collaboration could work. But for those who want to end up with Indulgence, this method obviously has it’s problems because no one (as you have noted before) wants to give details for obvious reasons.

      I am a graphic designer by trade and have been in countless “brainstorming” sessions. My observation was that there always seemed to be a pattern of events that unfolded.

      1. The self proclaimed Alpha person always jumped in first and pretty much set the tone of direction

      2. Most in the group were not really listening to what others had to say. They were too busy crafting their own ideas

      3. When there was a disapproval of someones thoughts, that person then “shut down” which gave more credence to the Alpha ideas

      4. And usually, after this process was complete, there was no real consensus among the group on which way to proceed.

      I always seemed to do my best work alone, where I could think and drift off into that “creative zone.” And not because I was looking for accolades or because I didn’t want to be a team player, it was just what worked for me. Now to your point, yes, every idea is a melting pot of many individual thoughts from others, BUT what makes it then “your” idea is what you do with all this other info to create another end result.

      Now all this said, you (and others who have, and do, propose this) may be light years ahead with this thinking. That the poem will never be solved without collaboration among searchers. I’m not disputing that point, just throwing out why I think that scenario among searchers is a tough one. Besides, I think you’re smart enough to solve this on your own and I’m counting on smart people like you to do just that! Yes I would love to be holding Indulgence this season, but I’ll settle for any conclusion because the suspense is killing me. LOL! 🙂

      • GG,

        Thanks for sharing. I have only a brief reply.

        You pretty much said it all in your own words!

        “I mean, isn’t that what we are all doing here?”

        Indeed we are! This forum, and other like it, are certainly sources of “brainstorming” and exchanging thoughts and ideas. I think there are some, those you refer to as “solvers,” who would not mind a more structured and open forum. By this I mean the sort of brainstorming you have been a part of previously but without the unfolding chaos you have described. It is indeed easy to fall into chaos when bringing people together. There are some simple ways of remedying that though.

        One such way is having those who wish to participate pre approve 1) an agenda and 2) a set of rules for conducting the gathering.

        I would recommend Robert’s Rules of Order which are pretty standard. Both Houses in Congress have similar sets of rules. Can you imagine how much more chaotic Congress would be if they didn’t operate with a set of rules when together? 🙂

        So you invite those interested in such a process and permit them to take part only if agreement with the proposed agenda and rules of conduct. If they show up and decide not to follow the agreed upon rules or agenda they are free to leave. And in this sort of scenario, everyone can have a voice and they can make their voice heard in a respectful manner.

        I don’t know that collaboration is required for solving the chase. I think it would be more helpful than not. Like you said, we are here aren’t we?

        Interestingly enough, those who choose to ignore the suggestions, thoughts or ideas of others because of some belief against collaboration of any sort, nay juts be missing out on the very information, thought or idea that would enable them to achieve their individual goal. And yes, that may include finding the chest.

        As someone who does not plan on putting BOTG, my thoughts and ideas may or may not hold any value unless they else someone else putting BOTG find the chest. And if no one else were to ever consider any one of them (whether helpful to their own ideas or something new that ought to be explored further) then in the end I would be left to test them myself, should it come to that. In the meantime, there is no harm in sharing. It is not up to me what you do with my thoughts and ideas. That is for you and you alone to decide.

        I am looking forward to hearing all about your adventures once they have concluded. Again thanks for sharing.

        Just some thought and all IMO.


          • I like the entertainment too Ronnylee, but I can’t imagine that nothing anyone has ever said on this blog hasn’t caught your attention as a serious, possible, piece of the puzzle. Just curious because you sound so serious about that. LOL!

          • Honestly, Geysergirl, I’ve not seen a single thing that I’ve incorporated into my solve, other than confirmation from Forrest’s scrapbooks. I’m just biding my time—too lazy to crow the day.

        • Ann – I would have to say I can agree on many of your thoughts above even if I think collaboration is a difficult house to build. In particular, I like these words because it made me think of how I was defining collaboration:

          “Interestingly enough, those who choose to ignore the suggestions, thoughts or ideas of others because of some belief against collaboration of any sort, nay juts be missing out on the very information, thought or idea that would enable them to achieve their individual goal. And yes, that may include finding the chest.”

          So in essence, you can be a solo thinker/solver, but are still “collaborating” by sharing and/or taking in even subtle info. I guess one can look at it this way. That the minute most of us are browsing this blog, we are collaborating in some sense of the definition of the word. (I found definition 2 interesting only because I never thought of collaboration in that sense.)

          1. work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.

          2. cooperate traitorously with an enemy

          Enjoy your thoughts as always even if I don’t always agree. 🙂 And yes, looking forward to the best part of the Chase…just getting out there!

          • But I’m still sticking to my guns that “true collaboration” in the sense that you are hoping for is highly unlikely IMO. 😉

          • GG,

            Thank you for your kind words here, and down below in the discussion with Ken. With or without collaboration being credited where credit is due, I think I am mostly looking forward to another puzzle being solved. I wish I had the time and passion some have into truly tacking the Chase. As I have said elsewhere, I have more pressing matters to deal with in my daily life. I do, however, enjoy throwing my two cents in and discovering the passions shared here by others. If nothing else, it’s a great way to meet new people with a shared interest. Looking forward to hearing all about your adventures later this year once they have concluded.


    • Some folks are not here to collaborate with others in hope of finding a successful solution to the poem.

      Some folks are here for the strokes (even though some of the strokes may be self-given).

      Some folks are here for the entertainment (cough, cough) provided by the blog(s).

      Some folks are not “driving themselves mad” by being here, even if working
      independently on a solve/search project.

      As always, this message is part of my opinion.

      • I’m just here in anticipation and excitement for the treasure getting found, but it always ends up being other stuff. One of these days it should be the best sb ever.

      • Tall Andrew,

        We are all here for different reasons. It’s definitely not an all or none situation. I am here because I got sucked into this black hole, and like all black holes, nothing escapes, not even light! 🙂 So enjoy whatever light may be shone upon your area of the black hole and watch out for that lingering bear.

        All IMO.


  45. To all searchers, These days for me, all Forrest has to do is answer a question as simple as the one Sue just asked on MW. Forrest answers “the question”, and then unnecessarily includes the 2nd sentence ” the treasure is still where I hid it more than 10 yrs. ago. The year doesn’t matter Imo. Forrest will be 90 yrs. young this coming Aug. 22. NEVER underestimate Forrests mental faculties. He will knock your socks off any day. In addition, Forrest has said, paraphrasing, you (the searcher), will not know if your WWWH is correct until you find the TC. After todays FQ on MW’s, in my extensive analysis, I’ll say this IMO, If you find the TC, you’ll still not know for sure if your WWWH is correct, and also, one will not know if their hoB is correct either. Then there’s also, HLAWH? Mr. Fenn is more then sly as a fox, even better then a Maverick In my opinion.

    • “in my extensive analysis”
      “you’ll still not know for sure if your WWWH is correct, and also, one will not know if their hoB is correct either.”

      You don’t have the chest, so your “extensive analysis” based on the failure rate which is 100%, tells me your thinking contradicts what Fenn has told us and you need to buy new socks.

    • ..so many theories postulated and concluded with a variant of “Forrest sure is smart,” as if they are equals now with a coy wink.

      To be fair, I was there once myself..

      • I think that is part of the cleverness/genius of FF, Muset—he knows the exponential nature of the rabbit holes caused by his poem, ATF’s, etc. 🙂

      • Muset, you’ve peered into one of the patterns of rookie syndrome.

        when someone starts off with how they’ve ‘figured it out’, then ends with something like: “Forrest sure is smart”.

        they are so new and did so little investigation, they didn’t know there were thousands of posts just like theirs for going on a decade now for just this particular “mystery”.

        one can look at just about any mystery and see the same pattern.

        (a decade probably should be a big hint now as someone is writing their first post on how they’ve ‘figured it out’, but I imagine it will go on for as long as there is a mystery to be had) 😉

        • I’ma gonna right one of those post’s some time and have Dale put it on the inner net. Solve of solvents, thill of the chills, it’s gonna be the best day ever!

  46. Just want to comment on Ann O’Nymous’ response to my message, above, about collaboration in this treasure hunt. And to the many searchers who agreed with Ann, let me say that it is not surprising that most members of a blog think that collaboration is valuable, since blog members are all part of a collective group.

    Ann said: “Such a searcher [who derives their chase solution alone] will never be found here …”

    That’s just not true, Ann. I’m here, and my chase solution is derived entirely independent of what other’s have come up with. I have been on this blog for almost 5 years. In that time I have never encountered a solution that was as different as mine … in multiple ways. That may sound like a cliche, but you don’t know what my solution is.

    Ann, you asked: “What are you [Ken} doing here, then.”

    I’m here to keep up to date on current state-of-the-art of the chase; to be aware of any significant chase developments/announcements; to observe others’ ideas about the chase, to see how close those ideas may or may not be to mine. I frequent other group settings, too, and for the same reasons.

    In so doing, I sometimes give my opinions. But my opinions are not derived from message board collaboration, but from my own unique interpretation of the poem, which I developed by spending hours in a truly non-collaborative mode, alone, and engaged 100 percent in thinking and analyzing.

    So you just can’t say that everyone’s motive here is to “collaborate” on the chase as part of some group effort.

    In response to Ann, Geysergirl (GG) made some excellent counter-arguments, applicable to this treasure hunt. In her experience, GG said: “The self proclaimed Alpha person always jumped in first and pretty much set the tone of direction”.

    In this treasure hunt there are a number of “Alpha persons” who have charted well-known paths to understanding the poem’s clues, and those paths have become popular with others. These “alphas” derived their status either because they have a popular blog, or because they post on message boards seemingly 24/7, or because they have been around seemingly forever, or because they are routinely invited by Forrest into his home. These facts give the alpha searchers … premier status, in the “search community”. (I refer to these people as VIPs or high profile searchers).

    In my opinion, these VIPs have made a number of false assumptions about the ways in which they approach the treasure hunt. Yet, non-alpha searchers “look-up” to these alphas for guidance. It’s so much easier to let others (i.e. the alphas of the world) do one’s thinking, than to think for one’s self.

    You must not assume that the reason all people in the chase community are here is to collaborate. Motives vary. There have already been examples of searchers making (or trying to make) money off of the chase. For other searchers, the motive may have more to do with making a name for themselves, via published articles, TV interviews, and so on. At the very least, alpha searchers tend to be rewarded, as I have already said, with higher status in the chase community.

    Even for non-alphas, the motive could be something other than collaborative, i.e. social. Get-togethers provide an excellent way for searchers to mix and mingle, to gain new friends, to see and be seen; ditto message boards. Don’t underestimate the value of social interaction.

    I have nothing against any of these alternate motives. My point is that “collaboration” as a motive is just one, and by no means the only, motive.

    As a fairly new person, you may not have had a chance to view the totality of the “chase community” and their various approaches to the treasure hunt. I have. And what I see is pretty much what GG has expressed. The “chase community” isn’t that much different from other groups. It manifests the same inherent strengths and weaknesses of most groups.

    Yet, I maintain that for an individual (not the group) to solve Forrest’s poem and to recover the chest, it’s going to be necessary for that individual to create their own individual path to a solution, not adopt the alpha assumptions that generally go unrecognized by searchers, as a group.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • I pretty much agree TX; Ken. And it wood seem f May too…
      “If you have a searching partner, best to have them wait in the car”.f- MW’s

      As I have gone alone in there…

      • miafarmerfriend,

        Maybe you could elaborate on you comment?
        I mean, if you have a search “partner” doesn’t that say you have not done the challenge/decipher the poem alone?

        Although, that is a very interesting comment fenn made.
        I mean, if a three year old girl would need some assistance to get to the chest… why leave anyone behind?
        The most interesting part of that comment is; how close if the car to the chest? LOL something is not adding up when you think about other comments;
        Walked less than a few miles…
        Done in one afternoon…
        Had to make two trips…
        Tells us to be able to walk several hours to our solve {twice}.
        Yet if we’re walking long distances.. get a new solve…
        All while leaving our search partner in the car??

        I ponder the idea, or maybe hint to the idea; the hidey spot is not a one size fits all place.

        • Seeker – You caught my attention with:
          “the hidey spot is not a one size fits all place.”
          Can you elaborate a bit more on your thinking without giving too much away?

          • GG,

            A simple thought relates to the poem… “look quickly down” once the blaze is found. Could it mean~ duck under or bend below or crawl in, etc.?
            A place that is just large enough to hide a body and a small chest? But not large enough for all to fit in… hence your search partner and you will not fit.

            Just more rambling and rumbling.

        • Seeker. I question some of your comments that appear to be quotes from f. You say think about other comments and list. Are these just your interpretation of f statements or actual quotes. I ask because, I don’t remember that he worded exactly the way you stated.
          It seems Mr. Dal has a hot finger for deletes when not quoted with references. So where you might be going could be misleading.
          If only your interpretation of his words can you respond in my opinion. Or elaborate on your comments.

          • Grasshoper,

            They are meant as simple reminders for the cpnversation GG and I were chatting about.
            Not unlike; if I said “the first clue” we all recall that the first clues is WWsH [but I’m not going to post a link every-time I use the term first clue as WWsH to prove it].
            In *simple conversation* I don’t see the need nor the responsibility to list links in every comment unless the conversation is about an ATF itself. We were talking about a single word “partner” and how it could relate to the idea of another conversation going on about solving the poem in groups or alone…

            Their is nothing misleading at all… you just need to follow all of the conservation{s} to understand.

        • Hay Seeker,
          For starters, ur pointing out ‘partner’, while I was focusing on “searching”.
          I find, no matter how easy it seems… there always seams to be more 2 It! 🙂

      • Btw: “I tend to favor that view TX; Ken”; more accurately aligns my position (4f:)

    • Ken,

      You said it yourself, you are indeed collaborating!…..

      “I’m here to keep up to date on current state-of-the-art of the chase; to be aware of any significant chase developments/announcements; to observe others’ ideas about the chase, to see how close those ideas may or may not be to mine. I frequent other group settings, too, and for the same reasons.”

      That is a form of collaboration in and of itself.

      And I have acknowledged that we are all here for very different reasons. But by simply being here we are “collaborating.” As Aaron has pointed out numerous times look up the meaning of collaborate.

      To say that you are here and somehow not part of the inherent collaboration that is transpiring is contradictory at best. The fact that you contribute only evidences your collaboration. Our small exchange here is a collaboration. So take that for what it is worth.

      I would hope that a searcher such as yourself who has been at it for so long and involved in communities such as this one would recognize the communities part in your solve should you be the one to find the chest. To say otherwise would be selfish and simply untrue.

      Your mere presence here, especially for so long, has in some way (whether you recognize it or not) influenced the way you think or approach the subject, even if only to confirm your own ideas.

      It is IMPOSSIBLE to interact with anything or anyone and claim there is no influence as a result of that interaction, no matter how miniscule it may have been. That is the nature of existence. I will not delve into that further as that rests beyond the scope of this forum. You are free to disagree but I am not here to convince you of such.

      And alpha searchers? I have yet to come across any. We are not a wolf pack hunting for food. We are individuals from around the world here for whatever reason you like. While there may be ideas others follow or agree with more than some, that does not make the proprietor of the idea an alpha of sorts.

      If by alpha you mean first, then I would certainly agree there have been searchers who were the first in say things like the first to search a particular area. But since we don’t know for sure who was the first to do this or the first to do that the term alpha really loses it’s meaning.

      If there are some in the community who feel less inclined to share their thoughts because of reluctance from these domineering alphas you speak of, then that is on the so called alphas for suppressing the thoughts of others by driving their own so far into the ground. That does not stop the reluctant by any means, it just makes for a less pleasant space to exchange thoughts and ideas. We are not limited to such spaces.

      Longevity does not equate to expertise, accuracy or correctness, You could be at work on a problem such as this from the very beginning and someone can come in today read the book and poem, find the chest tomorrow and leave you scratching your head as to how they did that. I am not saying that is what is going to happen, but it is possible. To think otherwise is delusive at best.

      For now we will have to agree to disagree on this matter. Thank you for sharing and all of this post is IMO. Btw, no need to reply as I will likely respond to any reply the same way I did when Bowmarc and I came to impasse, semantics.


      • Ann – I’m not Ken, so I guess I can reply. 🙂

        Forest has said, and I’m paraphrasing, it’s not who you are, but who people THINK you are. I couldn’t agree more.

        So in terms of Alpha searchers, factually and to your point, there probably aren’t any. But from a perception point of view, I’d have to say that there are. Same thing goes with your thoughts on ” Longevity does not equate to expertise, accuracy or correctness”….no it does not! BUT, it sure seems to be perceived that way.

        Hummmmm…..reality and perception. Almost sounds like something we need to determine when coming to conclusions for our solve to the poem.
        As always, just IMO

      • Since we are not yet to impasse here, I guess I can make a comment as well. 🙂

        I don’t think Ken (in Texas) meant a wolf-pack mentality when he referenced alpha persons. My understanding of that whole section is that there are other searcher blogs and websites that have sprung up around TTOTC and those who run those sites can be/are popular, have lots of followers, have products and/or services offered for which people pay money, have personally met FF, etc., but overall their contributions to TTOTC are no better or worse than those of any other searcher.


        • Bowmarc,

          Capitalism at its best isn’t it? 🙂 Perhaps that is why FF has suggested sticking to the book and poem and not so much to the blogs……

          I was just on TarryScant trying to find the exact quote. I searched the word blog. Didn’t find the quote I was looking for but I did find the conversation FF had with Maxa.


          They at one point discuss the 200′ ers. I thought it was interesting that FF knew that those who were so close weren’t aware of it themselves. Just from reading over the exchange with Maxa I got the feeling that we could identify a location (not sure if by name or description) which FF has a fairly good idea about how close it is to the chest. It’s not the proximity that interests me, as it has many before, so much as location identification. If it’s a named place that is so close that could certainly rule out a lot of areas. If it is based on a description, then not so much. If only we knew right? Okay back to the original intent of this reply…..

          I think that was pretty much it. If I could find the quote I am trying to reference that would help. I wondered if FF said it knowing that some are benefitting off of the information seeking masses who neither have a need to pay for information regarding the Chase in terms of figuring it all out (such as subscribing monetarily to a blog) nor necessarily have the funds to pay for such unnecessary sources (again in terms of obtaining info for the purposes of the Chase).

          In no way am I discouraging anyone from utilizing the blogs or other sources of their own free accord. And I am in no way discrediting the well intended, such as I believe Dal to be. But in this day and age there are those who will benefit from a good story. And FF’s story is pretty good!

          All IMO.


      • Ann, you take a black and white, no shades of gray, all encompassing approach to the concept of collaboration. For you, the mere awareness of search community strategies seems to be collaboration.

        The dictionary gives two synonyms for the verb “to collaborate” >>> to coauthor and to cooperate.

        I absolutely do NOT coauthor the assumptions adhered to by high profile searchers. I also do NOT try to sell those assumptions to others. Stated differently, I do not “cooperate” in the promotion of those assumptions.

        I merely observe, and am aware of alternate strategies, which to me is NOT collaboration.

        I think your original intent was to promote some kind of group effort working toward a common goal; now that’s collaboration. And you can make a case for such an effort relative to this chase. But now, you seem to be hung-up on the word itself.

        My point is that if group effort was your original intent, count me out. In my opinion, group effort is not likely to work, for the reasons so stated in previous comments.

        So like you said, let’s just agree to disagree.

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ah Ken,

          Quite to contrary. I am a relativist at heart, so nothing is as black and white as you suggest I suggest.

          You cannot use synonyms to declare yourself a non collaborator. Use the definition instead. I, good sir, am not caught up on anything. Just observing your contributions to the collaborative efforts put forth here. Nothing more. Nothing less.

          As for the sort of group effort you describe, I would certainly welcome such an effort in the Chase, and do not fear, you would be counted out.

          And agreed.

          All IMO.


  47. It’s official for Us! Spring break has begun………..BOTG trips just around the corner.
    I’ve become a fan of this site just to enjoy the engagement and to stay close to others solves. If a hint is dropped that someone may be getting close to our believed spot, I’m off and running. Much Luck to you All! Lov’n every minute of it!

    • Be sure no one has tied your shoelaces together before you start running, Chas David. 🙂

      Have fun on Spring Break!

    • Chas – I’ll be sure to look for you coming up on my right! Go find the chest and have fun and be safe!

  48. I’m curious to what folks think about, overall, while *reading the poem*…
    What process or method do you most adhere to?
    The basic ideas seem to be;
    1. A point to point method having up to nine different location to discover and travel to. This method has different idea of travel as well…
    1A, being stomping only, 1B, use of alternative transportation [ at some point ].
    2. large scale search area. This method seem to have mile{s} between some or most clue references.
    3. Small scale search area. This method seems to imply a location having the clues reference within a visual and/or short hike of many the clue’s references.
    4. [ for lack of a better term ] a map only method. This seem to be of the idea a searcher can simply map most, if not all the clues, and simply go to the last clue. [ with small variations involved ]
    5. An observational method in which the clues can be seen from a single vantage point. This method obviously limits the physical clue’s reference only for viewing.
    6. A skip or bypass of the first clue{s}. While this method doesn’t eliminate the first clue{s}, it allows the search to *physically* start at a later clue [example; the idea of the “put in” or any other clue reference]
    There are variations to this method on… but this is the main idea.
    7. I call this next method the hide n seek version. The idea is the first clue {couple clues} can be discovered on a map.. but the remaining clues can only be discovered by following the poem’s directions and/or instructions. While this method can incorporate different methods [stomping vs. transportation] the main idea is to track down remaining physical clue’s references that can’t be determined [fully] by use of a conventional map/GE.

    I’m just curious to a type of method each may think about while reading the poem.. your method may include more than one, example 1 and 1B and 2.
    If there’s a method I have not mentioned please feel free to describe what you imagine while reading the poem.
    Also; have some fun with this… should you have started with an Idea of [example] # 1 and changed to another method after reading the poem a few more time [example] changed to #4… great. I’d be interested as to the reason for changing.
    ** Please don’t state your idea of what a clue is or what its reference might be… I’m just looking for the basics of how folks read the poem…how it plays out.

    lastly; when reading the poem,
    #8 ~do you look for the first clue’s reference only? [ before venturing on a search, obviously ].
    #9 ~do you look for a location that contains all the clues? Be it large or small, and locate a possible first clue reference because of the area you chose.

    • Seeker,

      Excellent question! I think this question also goes to the one about views on what the nine clues in the poem may be.

      So I think initially, when first introduced to the Chase, there was a sense of nine clues/nine locations. That was in large part due to the various threads and discussions on potential key words and what this or that line in the poem could mean. So method #1 as you described was a preliminary approach, matching words in the poem to named places on a map. However, that approach was not ascertained by simply reading over the poem.

      In stepping back and just considering the poem, which some labeled me as poem purist for doing, I considered more or less what the words could potentially mean and saw the poem as more descriptive and less locational. By that I mean, in reading the poem I get the sense that FF is describing the chase to us in a way that makes sense to him, and not simply creating clues to fit names of places. So I began to wonder what would place us somewhere on a map.

      This is where I am still at currently but based on getting to this point I would say I lean toward a #7 approach. I imagine there is a trio of things that will lead to a place on the map:

      1. A solid WWWH.
      2. A notable HOB.
      3. A connection to FF.

      I think these three may be enough to get us on the map. The rest I take to be more descriptive of what it will be like with BOTG. Can we speculate that portion of the Chase from home using say GE? Sure. We may even proceed with a certain degree of confidence. I do believe some of it requires BOTG ultimately.

      As I don’t anticipate putting BOTG, I cannot speak directly to your 8 and 9. But if I were to put BOTG, I would base it on the confidence I’d have in the three factors listed above, in conjunction with further support from the likelihood of the rest of the clues also being found in that area.

      So for instance, I think a likely source for the blaze is a petroglyph. While I don’t think we can see FFs blaze using GE, if I believe it is likely a petroglyph, then I would be interested to know whether petroglyphs are known to exist in an are of interest to me. Of course it is always possible that FF created one himself, but for me a pre-existing marker is more fitting of a descriptive interpretation of the poem. I don’t believe FF created the answers to his clues.

      I will also add that I think it is important to determine why you are choosing a particular area to search. I say this because FF chose the clues he uses for a particular reason. Obviously understanding that reason would greatly help us. But since we are not FF, we have to decide why we are choosing the clues to mean what we think they mean and lead us to where we think FF found them.

      It’s almost like that game 20 Questions where someone spies something in a room and we are left to figure out what they have spied. Only in this instance we have a poem describing the location of the item and we are asking ourselves what that description means, as opposed to asking details about the object itself.

      It is odd to think that we know more about the object we are looking for than where that object actually is. Imagine if in playing 20 Questions the one spying said: “I spy a bronze chest full of gold and treasure.” And now you, knowing exactly what you are looking for, want to know where they are seeing this elusive chest full of gold and treasure. What sorts of questions might you ask yourself in trying to locate it? What sorts of answers does the poem give? Are there other things that will help you answer those questions? If so, what and why?

      As I said at the beginning of this post, excellent question. All IMO.


    • Hi Seeker;

      Since I have two solves – My Big Picture solve, and my small area visual solve, I guess that I fall into 1, 1A, 1B, 2, 3 and 5 Phew – I am tired already.
      #’s 1, 1A, 1B and 2 work for my Big Picture Solve, while #3 and 5 work for my Small area visual solve.

      I can actually marry the two solves I can use my Big Picture solve up to, and including the start of “There’ll be no paddle up your creek”, and then at this point switch to my Small Area Visual Solve.

      Even in my Small Area Visual Solve, I have to go to the “find” site, so it is not ALL visual – but all of the locations past the start of the NPUYC can be seen from this one spot (One can’t see all clearly, but they can be seen if one knows where to look, and you are standing at the right spot.

      Interesting question. I am anxious to see other’s responses -Thanks for asking the question. – JDA

    • I’m a 1 (1B), 2 and 4. Mostly using Google Earth as my main map, though I do refer to others from time to time. State road map, local area map, and topographic map mainly for the others. I started out by going to a number of Fenn web sites (including this one) to get a lot of opinions from searchers as to what some of the clues might refer to and where folks were looking. I also read a lot of graphical info on Forrest Fenn online sources. I settled on a particular area partly because it seemed to make sense as far as a possible WWWH and HOB, and parly because I have been to the area and loved it so I figured FF might too, given what I had learned about him.
      After a number of preliminary searches using Google Earth, I came up with a solve, rejected it after further research on the area. Realized I had the wrong WWWH and found another which worked much better with my same HOB. After that the next two clues fell into place, and eventually the rest, after a few detours into some rabbit holes. My point-to -point solve, over what I would actually consider a “medium size” area– a few miles between some clues, definitely less than a mile between others. What I learned through my rabbit hole mistakes: If you get to a place in your potential solve where one clue falls into place pretty easily, but then your choice for the location of the next clue ends up giving you too many choics for the clue after that (for example, you think you have found a possible HLAWH but that leads to way too many places that could be the “blaze”) , then your HLAWH is probably wrong . Each time I found what I believe to be the right location for a clue, it always led to the next one–making a “map to the treasure chest” as FF said. But all this is IMO only as my solve is untested until this summer.

    • Seeker, I appreciate the effort you’ve put into formulating this post, and the attempt to categorize solve methodologies, but…

      The problem with this approach is that trying to enumerate or pigeonhole a method (you’ve listed 8) is there are other unknown quantities of potential and unlisted paths in thought that bring an individual searcher to their assumptions and conclusions regarding their personal solve—methods beyond those you’ve listed here.

      Consider the permutations when these disparate methods are combined with 9 clues, along with unknown quantities of hints and aberrations, etc.

      One needs to unravel such quantum entanglement using their own individual faculties of perception.

      This is offered as caveat as opposed to collaboration.


      • Hi Ronny… Your post is similar to what I was processing in my thoughts. I like that seeker attempted to post a thought/s that could perhaps cause a searcher to pause for a moment to reflect on some of the different approaches *while reading* the poem. It is impossible to give a solid list of said approaches given the fact that so many folks have tried so many different ideas. I have to admit that my list is more extensive than the given above… and the permutations are indeed off the charts.
        My approach these days is to concentrate more on the basics in terms of clearly attempting to actually deciphering what the clues *say* vs what we all have assumed for so long. Obviously… being more objective and less subjective going into that process becomes the real challenge after all of the years of input. Attempting to unhear and unread everything back to a more simple time in the Chase is what I strive for these days. Searcher progress comments from Fenn stems from fairly early on… and the comments indicate that folks got to the correct area… and got close to the treasure. The disconnect after the first two clues seems to still be constant some 9 years or so later… with a “maybe” hiccup along the way. Figuring out that disconnect I think boils *down* to actually deciphering exactly what the clues say/mean… and not necessarily a predetermined approach selected by a potential searcher. Start with the first clue and solve them in order… and then act them out accordingly is where it’s at for me at this time.
        I’ll just plug in a quick comment on the “collaboration” ideas. I certainly am not a great candidate to actively pursue that type of approach. I’ve participated in group sessions where the objective was to generate new ideas on strategic ways to solve problems that occur/ed in different aspects of my profession at the time. Many times the efforts were stymied for a long list of reasons that generally boiled down to the inability of the participants to keep their own agendas in check… and to not become argumentative at the expense of another. The rules of engagement in a brainstorming setting I think are in direct opposition to the folks that generally participate in them… in my experience.

      • Ronny, Ken, Oz,

        I think Ken hit the highlights of my post; *… thought/s that could perhaps cause a searcher to pause for a moment to reflect on some of the different approaches *while reading* the poem. *

        Regardless of ATFs, blogs, group thinking… The questions I posed were directly related to how the poem is read… from the first time to the next 200 times. While I only gave a few examples, there are other ideas that seem to jump out at a reader. On other example was “time” related, or for a lack of a better example; a geographical walk through time.

        How clues are deciphered from those idea is a path each reader takes… I’m more interested in how folks read what they see.
        There has been implications of a story, the need to learn what/where WWsH is, the idea of the path not being direct without certainty of the location beforehand… all while being straight forwards.

        OK… so in one attempt while reading the poem, a person may think about; “Follow” as in understanding, rather than, a physical movement only. This alone can create a different way of reading the poem, line of thinking.

        My post was mainly about the idea{s}; “thinking the right thoughts” and ” it’s not a matter of trying, its a matter of thinking” even, “one important possibility”.. and not so much [ as Ronny stated ] *… their assumptions and conclusions regarding their personal “solve”…* While I agree, that seems to be the next step in reading the poem, as to, decipher clues.

        FD stated his approach is; [in part] *Nowadays I only read the first stanza only.*
        While I understand why he is approaching it this way *now* I doubt FD started out reading “the poem” with just one stanza.

        So, I’ll use Ken’s words; What gives a reader pause to think about any approach in how the poem might be read?
        Or.. Why do we chose one manner of reading the poem vs. others?

        • Seeker;

          The line above that caught my eye, was this one:

          “On other example was “time” related, or for a lack of a better example; a geographical walk through time.” Din, Ding, Ding
          The bells started ringing.

          I like the combination of “Geography” and “Time” AND the
          need to solve the clues in a consecutive manner. Makes sense to me. JMO Thanks for the post – as always – JDA

          • JDA,

            In my mind, there are two possible options for “time”
            One being; a walk through time as we see the clues, see them become or created…
            This idea bugs me now because fenn said he followed the clues “when” he hid the chest. I would see the need for the guy who created the clues having the need to follow the time line to get to the hide.
            Something else is needed that could involve “time” for today’s searcher and future searchers to “see” and “follow”
            Hence the idea of something that “ever” [always] happens, and relates to time, as to a clock.. while.. still relating to geography and a clue, and fenn needing to follow that time when he hid the chest.

            FootNote: I don’t think fenn knew the 10″ sq spot he was going to place the chest.
            Basically saying; fenn knew where he wanted to hide the chest, but not where the hidey spot was going to be. He may have created the clues [ by knowledge of the place ] to show a spot where to hide the chest. HOW the chest is hidden doesn’t matter as long as we can FIND the spot. So, while on site.. his clues showed him a spot within his “special place,” line of thinking, to hide the chest.
            Hence; He used his clues to complete the poem.

        • Seeker: my apologies for misleading myself on my concerns for Dals delete finger. Just funen Dal. I did not reference your post to GG I just saw Ken in TX above in the block. And took collaborating as the topic and did not associate that with partners.
          No reply button on your response post. So it’s here.
          Thanks for your correction.

    • Seeker,

      There is one ATF comment that I put on top of the list over the others:


      FENN: If the person reads the poem over and over and is able to decipher the first (few clues) in the poem, they can find the (treasure chest). It may not be easy, but it certainly isn’t impossible.

      It seems to me that if you have deciphered the first few clues they will take you to the correct -area- with some level of certainty and a high degree of proximity. And if no other clue is needed to be stomped, observed or identified then ‘from there’ is a matter of walking to all possible places where it could be within that area. Not easy but not impossible. imo

    • Seeker,
      Nice job!
      My process:
      Know where to begin.(wwwh)
      Know where to go(1 move only)
      You are there. (all clues /small area).

    • All just my opinion, of course:

      1. Yes, B. I think I can drive to each of the first 7 or 8 clues, although I have walked most of my route (spanning 16 or so searches) in order to actually find each one.

      2. Large scale. Each clue being more than three miles between each, except the last one.

      3. No. That would be a lazy trip to the mountains.

      4. No. I used the map for clues1 and 2 but the rest I had to see before I realized how each fit my general solve.

      5. No.

      6. Don’t skip clue 1 because I think it is in Yellowstone, and it would be crazy not to visit there after traveling all that way. But a crazy person could skip it and still find the canyon downstream and the home of Brown.

      7. Yes. I basically went up every interesting trail along the Yellowstone, Madison and Gallatin valleys until I figured out the correct one to follow next for my general solve.

      8. When I search, I drive to the last place I believe to be a correct clue and try and find a new way forward by hiking around.

      9. No.

    • g’day Seeker – nice to see you’re still submitting relevant questioning/phishing for logical answers, and given that ff stated ‘…it seems prudent to do a little investigating about higher things.’ – anything is possible, so i’ll be brief;

      1) yes
      2) yes
      3) yes
      4) yes
      5) yes
      6) yes
      7) yes
      8) yes
      9) also yes

      ..hope this helps 🙂

  49. What do I think about, overall, while *reading the poem*…

    -Nowadays I only read the first stanza only. When I read it, I try to process each word’s value independently and as an ingredient. I start with “As”…

    What process or method do you most adhere to? However the above process speaks to me. Don’t really matter.

  50. Seeker – Great question.

    I have 3 potential solves. All incorporate method 3 and 6, 1 uses method 4 and 1 uses method 7. All incorporate method 9 when reading the poem.

    What’s interesting to me is why not follow one method? My possible answer is that we don’t know which method could be the “correct” way to follow the poem, so if we have a potential solve that leads us to one method or the other, we go with it. In other words, just because we can only arm chair to clue 4 or 5 in one solve, doesn’t mean we should give it up just because we have one solve that potentially takes us all the way thru.

    I’m curious. What other method(s) do you use besides 5?

    • Geysergirl,

      Minus the alternate transportation idea for any reading… I have read the poem in all those manners and more.
      I even read the poem as “I” in the first stanza being of another [not fenn, until the 5th stanza] and how it could be read as a walk through time… leading into a present day location.

      • Funny you should mention reading the poem as “I” being another, not Fenn. I have tried a similar approach thinking maybe “I” is something that has been personified by Forrest. But nothing has jumped out at me as of yet to lend any validity to that thought.

        • GG,

          “I” is a fun word to examine.
          Should “I” represent someone else, your thoughts bring out ideas of what/why fenn chose three different wordings for the chest. “treasureS” “Chest” and “Trove” LOL yet when talking about the challenge fenn normally refers to it as “the treasure chest”

          Treasures [ more than one ] could refer to a few things. but the word is slightly different to trove and the same as well. Treasure is of value to one [or “I”], while trove implies of value to all and having no ownership.
          What could be of value to one and later be value [ have some type of value ] to all?

          “I” in this case might represent the first humans to the area of the RMs with their personal, and likely, important items [ spears, cutting tools clothing etc ] which later to be discovered as a trove. That idea caused a reading of the poem as a time line, rather than, a physical point to point trek. You simply followed the clues time line to a place… In which case my idea was WWsH was the last ice-age… CD was the ice-free corridor,, etc etc.

          LOL it was a fun attempt at a serious solve till fenn stomped on it with “many” WWsH, and that he followed his clues when he hid the chest. That would definitely be tftw.

          • Seeker, I was attempting to complete my Winter Thoughts Hibernation till spring was here, too not just Spring Forward, but complete that which, no what, what it is that I thought to express, or dream about, perhaps use when I woke up… but someone here always makes enough noise to awaken the dead here! “LOL it was a fun attempt at a serious solve till fenn stomped on it with “many” WWsH, and that he followed his clues when he hid the chest. That would definitely be tftw.”

            Those ff words are almost a “Bugle Call” for “Reveille” “Brave Helios, wake up your steeds,
            Bring the warmth the countryside needs.”

            Who is Forrest Fenn trying to awaken with the answer to the Riddle of Where Warm Waters Halt?
            For Whom does this bell toll?
            So why is it that I must go,
            And leave my trove for all to seek?
            The answers I already know,

            Why is the ‘answer” so far from wwwh? Well Seeker you are right, it was just Too Far To Walk.
            When Forrest and Donnie got lost in Looking for Lewis and Clark he started to take note of important rules, hunger, mountain thunderstorms etc. but what did he really learn from this experience? How to survive in the Wilderness, and that not all streams flow gently to a trail or forest road when you go with the flow, downhill.

            What does all that have to do with WWWH and the riddle, ? Perhaps a message was in it for us all, we need a compass in life, not just rules, a greater truth than our own understanding, a spiritual truth, so if I were a trying to put a treasure out there, that hides somewhere for a purpose greater than us, in a wild spot, I might look for a place like: https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/24/scrapbook-two_hundred-forty-one/

            You could get married in this, a church in the mountains, and if it were a Catholic Church, like the one in Santa Fe, NM, there would be a basin in the back, that holds Holy Water, it always seems warm, even if was old like this one… https://dalneitzel.com/2019/11/19/scrapbook-two_hundred-thirty-seven/, sorat like hot/warm Chile in the line at Santa Fe’s “Christs Church” see: https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/26/scrapbook-two_hundred-nineteeen/
            Seems like home https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/25/scrapbook-two_hundred-eighteen/

            Now what was his address on N. Main St? Now how much did those 1956 Birds sell for? Gosh someone is off by .0010 degrees of longitude, gotta love GPS and Google Earth when they show you the blaze…
            Oh, I regret that the last clue cannot be seen on Google Earth?


      • Geysergirl – the first stanza and where the chest is are one of the same – the eye is a very good clue – to look for HOB, look for this land formation that has a very large eye- the same is where the treasure chest is – he has mention alian- and they do have large eyes, and I think they (eyes)is what we should be looking for something with jmo

  51. Where can he keep his secret? Where does warm waters halt? The treasurer is still where he hid it, right? Will it be found there or where?t

  52. When the view gets old and the days seem long. Hope someday someone with the magic comes along to change the scenery or maybe just some of the cast.
    I’ll be waiting till my ship comes in .

    • Shadow Runner,

      You aren’t waiting for the S.S. Minnow are you!?! 🙂 I heard that tour isn’t so great. At least they didn’t have coronavirus to contend with. I think I might stick to rom boats, although if there’s not going to be any paddle up my creek I might as just walk. Unless, of course, it’s too far to walk! Better take the car just in case. I feel like i’m beginning to get sucked into one of Zeno’s paradoxes! If I don’t get started soon I may never make it to the end……:O

      Hope this has put a smile on at least one face. I think springing ahead has made me lose an hour. 🙂


      • Quite the paradoxes Even if you start soon, it may not be soon enough – No matter how fast you run, you may never be able to catch up >>>..

        .” In a race, the quickest runner can never over­take the slowest, since the pursuer must first reach the point whence the pursued started, so that the slower must always hold a lead.” -:) -:) -:) JDA

          • Spring has finally reached Pocatello/Idaho Falls JDA. Golf season is soon upon us.

          • JDA,

            Maybe I should just stay home and wait for this boat instead! Although, if it is a cruise ship I won’t be getting on that! 🙂 Maybe it’ll be a tug boat pulling someone’s leg! 🙂 Nothing like a good pun to keep things rolling. Speaking of golf…..how par to the nearest fourest? I’m trying to find this particular wood, would you mind if I checked my bag……oh wait, there’s a chest in the way, let me just……that’s better! Okay, now where were we?

            Hahahahahaha! Hope I’m not the only one laughing!


  53. To All,

    So FF isn’t the first one to hide a treasure and publish the clues. Does anyone think he was influenced, inspired, or otherwise by his predecessors? If so, any in particular?


    • Ann – The only one that I am aware of and that makes me think of Forrest’s approach just a bit, is the book called The Secret. There are 12 verses and 12 illustrations that have clues that help create a map/path to a treasure in 12 different cities across the US. In essence you have to “marry” the correct verse with the correct illustration to figure out the correct city and then begin to decipher the clues in both. From my brief looking into, when you pair the two properly and figure out the city, you have the “big picture” but it appears to me that unless you are from the area and know it very well, you most likely need to be BOTG to be able to determine and follow the remaining clues. I believe the book was written in 1982, so Forrest may very well have know about it before he got cancer and decided to hide his own treasure with clues in a poem.

      • GG,

        Going off topic a bit here, but… The last search {The Secret} took place in Boston. LOL some of the deciphered clues were out right wrong [ **depicted in the picture**] and yet the clever searcher did find the key [and in he nick of time] and got his prize. IF he didn’t finish his version of the clues, when he did, the last clue and its hide would have been long gone.

        If other places had the same disruption, some of the remaining solves may be lost… The other disadvantage is; the prize is only handed out if the finder can track down a family member still involved to retrieve the prize from a safety deposit box. { in the last case, that was the wife }.

        I personally can’t compare the two…

        • Seeker – You’re right, we are off topic a bit so won’t dwell on this much, but as Ann states below, the details are different as you have noted in your post, but I still feel there are similarities even if just small ones. But to your point, I have always felt Fenn’s method is much more concrete and thought out because of again, the reasons you stated.

      • GG,

        The Secret is definitely one of those precursors. A treasure and a poem. Seems pretty comparable to me. Are there differences? Of course. But the idea remains the same. I am also reminded of FFs other hidden treasures. I imagine he was aware of other such treasure hunts as he may have wanted to know the logistics of the making his own happen.

        Btw, the rewards are still available for The Secret if anyone should find the remaining keys. I wonder if the circumstances of that hunt have given FF any ideas about what the Chase may look like should he pass before the chest is found. I am sure he has ponder every such scenerio. Makes me wonder if there will be a means of confirmation if he should pass away prior to its fining. Maybe there is a similar retrieval involved once the chest is found.

        All speculation of course.


    • Ann,

      I came across this Q&A… I recall it but don’t exactly know where it was from;

      Questions (from a group of four treasure seekers) posted 6/29/2014:

      Maddox asks: “How much of an influence would you say Treasure Island, Huck Finn, or other books/poems have had over your treasure hunt – (both the creation and execution of it)?”

      None at all Maddox.

      I’m sure someone has notes to the original source, but I came across it on here;

      IF it help you at all….

      • Seeker,

        Interesting quote. I wasn’t really looking for anything here to aid in the Chase, just a curiosity I had in knowing he wasn’t the first. Ideas, even novel ones, tend to have a source in something (even if in filling a void or an absence of something else). I imagine if someone were to ask him what influenced his decisions in creating the Chase he wouldn’t answer the same as the quote. Obviously the threat of death had some influence and I imagine his sens of adventure did too. There may or may not be others.

        I am reminded here now too of how well read FF is. His familiarity with obscure works such as The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam does not make me feel like he was unaware of previous treasure hunting stories. His affinity for history and early pioneers and exploration is similarly suggestive. I would not put it past him to have found some inspiration, even the tiniest bit, somewhere in his endless readings.

        I thank you for the quote though and look forward to any follow ups. Again, nothing here is to help with the Chase per se. Maybe some insight into the man behind the Chase, but nothing more really. Maybe you know of some ATFs regarding influences on FF for the Chase. That would achieve the same goal as my original question.

        All IMO.


  54. Why does one speak for all?
    Why does all speak for one?
    Just speak for yourself and go with it.

  55. I think people are making stuff up trying to take solves from other people, and the people in my phone are making stuff up too. But I wouldn’t rely on that if it were me. I’d use poem and map like Forrest said because that’s how it works, and there’s obviously only one way it works.

  56. To All,

    Something I posted on the WWWH thread but feel may be more relevant here:

    I have been sitting back watching some of the discussions about “why” for a few days now and have been reluctant to jump in. But I believe Seeker has stated the quintessential question quite well. What gets us to the clues?

    When I first came upon the Chase I was introduced by way of the Key Word thread and then HOB thread. There was much discussion on the words and their possible meanings. There are certainly some wonderful, interesting, and far out ideas on all of these subjects.

    I started trying to match names of places to words in the poem. I found, as many of you have, that this is very much a crapshoot. A roll of the dice. A throw of the dart. So naturally I began to question why. At first I was asking myself why would this place be special to FF and why would FF have gone here. I found answering those questions can be just as chance filled as matching names of places to words in the poem.

    Then I began asking myself what could the words in the poem possibly mean. Again a whole host of possibilities. But I was trying to gain perspective on what the poem could mean. And so in addition to what the words could mean I also asked myself why would they mean this over that. Or why should I take this word to mean this and that word to man that.

    Then the more serious whys started popping up. Why would this be WWWH instead of over here? Why would this be HOB instead of this? Instead of trying to figure out what the words in the poem meant I found myself trying to figure out why they would mean what they could mean.

    I think why is probably the most important question we can be asking in the Chase. And if indeed it is the question we should be asking, and I will grant that there are some who will say it is not, then where might we find out why? In the book? Maybe. In the poem? I certainly hope so at least in part if not in whole. From FF and all the ATFs? Not so sure but I will entertain the possibility of hint/confirmation value. Then where?

    I have been wrestling with this very question myself. But, I also feel I have found a satisfactory answer, at least in terms of where I think we are most likely to find an answer (without actually having the chest in hand) if one can be found prior to that.

    For me, it’s been a matter of settling on the likely meaning of the words in the poem. By this I mean, what might the words in the poem mean in the context of a set of directions (instructional in this context) that lead us on a path (the Chase if you will) with the aid of a map, written for the sole purpose of guiding us to a hidden chest full of treasure.

    I realize that is mouthful. There is more in what I am not saying, perhaps, than what I have just said. And I emphasize the following is IMO!!!!

    For example, I am not looking at the words in the poem in terms of what they mean poetically. FF did not write the words to be poetical. I am not looking at the words in the poem in terms of a code or cipher. FF did not write the words to be a code or cipher. FF wrote a poem using the words he felt would lead us to a chest he hid somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. He used these words because he felt they best described how to get there. He used these words, because there is something about what they mean that tells us exactly where to go based on FFs use of them. So why should I go anywhere? Because the words tell us to.

    Again I emphasize the above, and really this entire post is all IMO, especially any lines that say FF did this or that. I used such language to illustrate the point which is this: There is something about what the words in the poem mean that compelled FF to use them in order to direct us on where and how to go about finding his chest. Their meaning is why we should go to the correct WWWH versus one that is not. Their meaning is what tells us who or what and ultimately where HOB is. Their meaning tells us which way to go from WWWH to HOB to the chest. Their meaning gives rise to their purpose, and their purpose is to get us to the chest.

    So if we want to know why, we should carefully consider what the words likely mean and see whether that meaning doesn’t lead us to the chest.

    All is certainly IMO, and while I have chimed in on the discussion about why, I have not spoken here on the notion of certainty. That is a horse of a different color.


    • Whew… Let me rephrase all that for you Ann …….” There is something about what the words in the poem mean that compelled FF to use them in order to direct us on where and how to go about finding his chest. ”

      And my reply….”something geographical.” IMO.

      Cheers & good luck to you.

      • OS2,

        That is an extremely reasonable answer to the question! I would take it even further and say geographical features as opposed to geographical locations. Names can change, but not the places they represent. I am sure others may disagree but that’s what makes this all IMO!.


      • Another blog stated that ff said that HoB was sticky. Just wondering if that statement was at all true. BTW, love your shadow! That along with page 19 of OUAW told me everything that I need to know. Your right, you are no fool.

        • Ice-
          There is no record of Forrest saying that the HOB is sticky. He never said that publicly and I find it completely unlikely that he would have said that privately.

          • Hey Dal, Forrest HD Net interview with Reporter London on…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8&t=16s… listen closely at 10:40 time line, when asked about Brown;s house ff said in reference to London’s Question: “Browns House or Who. is Brown”, he remarked and I paraphrase “If I told youTHAT you wold go right to the chest” so why was his answer a That and not a WHO?

            Well ff is very clever and I always thought he meant Brown Trout, or ? I think we were just asleep on this one, but the latest scrapbooks have me re-considering which Brown thing that he carefull avoided in this Q & A WE must re think Brown and home it makes sense to have 2020 hindsight, now that the WWWH question is in focus. There are a few words like Halt and Home and Happy Dance that make Friday the 13th a winner!


          • TT-
            I agree with AO more or less.
            If you asked me who sold me my van, I might reply by saying, “If I told you that you’d go out and buy one.”, or I might reply, “If I told you who you’d go out and buy one.”. I think either is appropriate and conventional…
            I also think the meaning is the same. I am not rethinking HOB over that statement…You might be over-analyzing it a bit.

          • TT,

            It is likely FF was simply referring to answering the question. Example:

            Q; “Who was the thirteenth President?”
            A: “Oh, you know that one.”


            Q: “Do you know who stole the cookie from the cookie jar?”
            A: “I don’t know that, but I know who drank all the milk.”

            I don’t think it was a what vs. who situation. Just a “can’t tell you the answer to that question” situation.

            All IMO.


          • OK, Dal and Ann, O, I worked many years learning to read “body language” and subtle misstatements, made my living by reading people and their answers and reaction to direct and indirect questions, let me have you think about this question being asked by an interrogator at the scene of an accident where you were envolved: “Mr Neitzel , how many moving violations on your driving record in the past 5 years, DUI’s etc?” DUI’s etc? Now he has your drivers license and a computer. Now what if he ask you “Dal, you dont have any violations or tickets do you?”
            Now which way do you think you will answer to question one, and which might be your response to question 2 ?Will you be more likely to tell the truth or slip up? Sometimes it is how we are questioned not just what we say that can be important and do not underestimate Body Language, Forrest has even said to interviewers, “I gotta tell you there’s one thing I told you that I wish I had not”…listen at 2:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJBakBqwQVs

            London, this interviewer understands the art of slightly changing her expression and then anticipating an unexpected answer, trying to reveal testimony from places/memory/ awating something Forrest might divulge, a Freudian slip or unconscious thoughts and feelings can transfer to the conscious mind in the form of parapraxes, popularly known as Freudian slips or slips of the tongue. We reveal what is really on our mind by saying something we didn’t mean to. That I believe was a technique she employed, perhaps she made it way too obvious, a good journalist and interviewer should be more subtle.

            No one is exempt from an occasional slip, not even a very good politician, I can think of several who’s words did not pass the sniff test. TT

          • TT,

            Not sure your interrogator example illustrates your point as well as you would like. It assumes we have something to hide in the situation and therefore would be inclined to lie. I am assuming you believe FF may slip up from time to time despite efforts not to reveal anything. I am with Dal on this. His response was not atypical. It was a normal response and un-faltered.

            Your assumption that FF’s use of “that” refers to Brown as opposed to the answer to the question. Even if the question had been “Who is Brown?” I still would expect FF to have used “that” instead of “who.” Even a response including “who” would like include “that.”


            Q: “Who is Brown?”
            A: “If I told you who that was, ….”

            Additionally, it is more likely that a more specific version of the noun Brown, such as a person, who lead us more directly to the chest than say a less specific version as in Brown trout. Does Brown trout point me to as specific a location as say Molly Brown would? Which one would I more likely know exactly where to go if I knew who/what Brown was?

            FF’s response was typical for someone being solicited for information. He was more likely responding to the solicitation than specifically who/what Brown is. Perhaps the best example of this is the well known adage: “If I told you, I’d have to kill you.” Imagine if FF had responded in like! Neither “who” or “that” is used in this famous line and yet it is a sufficient response without giving anything away.

            All IMO.


          • Ann, you have made my point very clear, did you not understand the question to ff was “Who is Brown?”

            You said “Your assumption that FF’s use of “that” refers to Brown as opposed to the answer to the question. Even if the question had been “Who is Brown?” I still would expect FF to have used “that” instead of “who.” Even a response including “who” would like include “that.”


            Q: “Who is Brown?”
            A: “If I told you who that was, ….”

            Now go back and listen and watch carefully to that question in the interview and the one from New Mexico True at 2:12, make no mistake these are probable cause for the sniff test being a BINGO.. Brown might just be a critter and he, ff used caps to emphasize a point, like when we capitalize GOD and refer to gods as the position of acknowlegement of power in a belief,

            Ann, and Dal. what do you think of the Scrapbooks since Chaos #209, is he trying to mislead some here or trying to Embroidery a beautiful tapesty of thought, to locate a few answers to the mysteries?

            I think the latter.


          • TT,

            I think you mistake my previous post. I did not clear up anything about your interpretation. You are taking “that” to mean a what instead of a who. I clearly illustrated he did not need to say “if I told you who” and instead supplied a sufficient answer to the question by using “that.” As In “If I told you who that was.” Or “If I told you the answer to that.”

            His use of “that” does not suggest a what. Is it a typical response to someone ascertaining any information whatsoever. If you asked me “Who are you?” I would not reply with “If you knew who I was you wouldn’t have to ask.” I would say “If you knew that, you wouldn’t have to ask.” You are definitely reading way too much into my posts if not into the original quote in question.

            The absence of the word “who” in FF’s response does not imply Brown refers to a what as you suggest. The fact that the questioner asks “Who is Brown?” and not “Who or what is Brown?” is more suggestive that FF’s reluctance to answer the question and the manner in which he answers it, leans toward Brown being a who as opposed to a what. If the question had been “Who or what is Brown?” that may have produced different results.

            Initially FF avoids the question. Then the questioner clarifies and asks point blank “Who is Brown?”” That is when FF says if he told us, we would go straight to the chest.

            In regards to your latter question about the SBs since Chaos 209, I would gladly give a response if I knew what you were talking about. I have not yet read any of the SBs and I imagine Chaos is the title of SB 209? Point me in the right direction so that I may be able to look over what you are talking about and share my two cents. 🙂

            Thank you in advance. All IMO.


          • TT,

            So I just read 209 and 248. I hadn’t realized FF put out so many SBs so often! I guess I just imagined they had been farther between over the years since there are so few in relation to a ten year stretch. Even at two a month, that would be more frequent than I imagined. The real number is much higher.

            I have not read the ones in between. However, just reading SB 248, I take that one to be fairly indicative that the Chase is not in the Grand Canyon. My only premise for this is that he seems to have written it n light of recent events, meaning the rescue of those recent searchers from the same area he so easily shares a story with us about indicating he has not been in that area since the time of the story. That would include whatever date he hid the chest. So logically it can be reasoned that the chest is not in the Grand Canyon.

            Do other SB’s make similar suggestions? I would imagine that would depend on what we can ascertain about why he was prompted to write them in the first place. And by this I don’t mean start the entire SB process. I mean, what prompted him to write SB 209? What prompted SB 230? Etc. Etc. Knowing why, is usually as important as knowing what. It helps us understand the what that much better.

            All IMO.


        • Ann, you seem to feel there is something different from the rest since SB 209 on. Is it the 209 story or a change in the feeling of the stories since 209 that makes you feel this way? g

          • Ace,

            So I literally only read SB 209 and SB 248. I only noticed that in 248 FF starts off by saying: “In view of recent events.”

            I was simply noting that FF seems to have written this particular SB for a particular reason, namely in response to the recent search events in the Grand Canyon. Without having read any of the others or been involved with discussions on why FF has written any particular SB, or all of them in general, I imagine SB 248 standing alone, was a subtle way FF was telling us not to bother looking in the Grand Canyon.

            He was prompted to write the SB based on dangerous results of an attempted solve there. After indicating this is the reason for SB 248, he then proceeds to tell us a story of danger he himself encountered there. At the end of this story he mentions promising never to go back and states that he indeed hasn’t. I am assuming two things here:
            1. The story is true.
            2. FF has not been back, including whenever he went to hide the chest.
            The reasonable conclusion from all of this is that the chest is not in the Grand Canyon.

            Has FF done similar things in other SBs? I cannot say. I really cannot say I am completely right here either. But, if correct, it may warrant further consideration of other SBs for similar reasons.

            I suppose the following question ought to be the first: what has compelled FF to share these SBs (either in whole or on an individual basis)?

            Is the overall purpose of the SBs to aid searchers in the Chase, or is FF just sharing thoughts and stories? Is SB 248 an indication that the chest is not in the Grand Canyon or is FF just sharing a story that recent events reminded him about?

            Unless FF has answered such questions before, I suppose that is a determination for each searcher to make. And as a member to that club, I would suggest that unless you are able to ascertain a likely purpose behind a specific SB, then understanding it’s meaning will likely prove fruitless.

            I hope this is helpful in terms of your question. I really haven’t given the SBs any more time than described here as there are so many!

            I would gladly look over specific SBs and share my thoughts if that is desirable. Just let me know which one(s) and any context you may be able to provide, such as whether the particular SB you want me to look at coincides with others before or after it. Since I haven’t read any others, I don’t know if they are more like a soap opera where in order to best understand what is going on they should be read from the beginning, or whether they are like older TV shows where each episode is a complete story in and of itself.

            That is all I have here for now. All IMO.


  57. Hi all…
    I posted this at Harry’s and then THOR. Thought I’d bring it here…hope I’m ok on this page?

    All the hype over the first clue. I could put all forrests “first clue” hints here, but there are many and we all know the importance of the first clue. More to follow…
    We also know the Forrest agreed that BIWWWH is the first clue. He has said to start the chase (botg) you get in your car and drive to the first clue. If you get the first clue you are metaphorically more than halfway there… If you dont have that one (first clue) nailed down you might as well stay home.
    What if we simplify, like he said.
    When Bill asks me where I put something, I reply, I dont know, I have no clue, I havent got the first clue, I have no IDEA.
    Forrest said he felt like an architect building the poem. An architect starts with an IDEA. I D E A are the four corners of the poem. The architect begins his build with the foundation. He needs corners to start. Now, do you have the first clue? Do you get the idea? IDEA= 4 corners, which happens to hold 2 search states and therefore eliminates the other two.
    So now you ask, what about WWWH? Well, Forrest said there were many in the Rockies, nearly all north of SF. That being said, there is probably a place in that area where warm waters halt, therefore all his statements can be true. If you dont have the first clue, you have no idea…If you start with the first clue, you GET THE IDEA. Thus you now know you are working to find the next hint to get you from 2 states down to one…where do the most WWWH exist out of the two? Well if you read Tea with Olga, you’ll find a reference to warm waters having halted (frozen) atop “Taos Mountain” when it was covered in snow in July. So he went lower to where it was warmer…

    • Very good J. Actually, for me, that line, (line 5), says, Begin with 4. Plain and simple. I believe the poem has levels, like a lot of searchers. The first clue will have many hints, but for me, as far as solving that line, it gives me the first number in the Latitude degrees, 4. The canyon down line gives me the second number.
      When I get the solve and head out to my spot, the start is my WWWH. And that place has a lot of confidence hints to back it. The thing I wanted to express is how there are different ways to solve this puzzle and still get some of the same answers. Your 4 is of a total different meaning for you, but at the core of solving this puzzle, two different approaches can agree on a certain aspect.
      Seeing idea and thinking architecture gave me the same type of thoughts you are expressing. The four states, but in the end, it was a different four for me.
      My line 6 breaks down to, “And city”. Both together gives me, Epsom city. So go figure, if that helps in any way. It’s basically a hint, the clue being the starting spot which is referenced with line 5.
      Keep working that poem J, you’ve been around as long as I have. We might even have that line solved, at this rate, we might just solve this thing in around 72 years from now. 🙂

  58. I’ve been thinking recently of trip I made to Buffalo Bill’s Grave site this last year. I couldn’t resist upon leaving the museum. Mam and sir? In your time working here have you run into any Forrest Fenn treasure hunters. They had worked some time and had not heard anything about it, so I explained. Surely They will be able to spot them now. Studying things a little more carefully and intensely. So much sounded so familiar. I saw a grave, buffalo nickels, Iron tail, Curly, Buffalo Bill, a pipe of sitting bull’s (no photo proof). I saw Curlys bow and arrows, Bill’s weapons, a Remington, horse saddles from the show, ect. Some cool stuff. But what I saw most of all was a peaceful place, high atop a hill with grand views. The views were even bigger during Bill’s time as there was one lone tree, a white pine I think. It is said Buffalo Bill recalled the views later in his life and said you can see four states from there. Although it feels like it, I don’t think this is physically possible from there. I wonder what he could have ment? It appears a lot of the info there on subject Bill was passed down from a few near him in the Denver area after his death. I believe there is another side to the story somewhere up north, but I haven’t been there yet. Oh yes, and I saw the Zoltar machine in the gift shop. I still have it, it reads. Restless feet may walk into a snake pit. ?? Lucky numbers, 41, 7, 13, 40, 42, 06. g

  59. Hey ace 340,
    What you say about the people that work at Buffalo Bill Cody’s Gravesite know nothing about Forrest Fenn or the chase?

    Years back a couple of us Florida searchers went to this place searching and looking for answers. I talked with the curator – Director of the Museum Steve Friesen for quite awhile. My first question was if there was any items in the museum that was donated by Forrest Fenn. At that point he disappeared into his office and about 10 minutes later he came back out. He said there is nothing in the collections that he knew about. I found that odd that he didn’t know off the bat since he said initially he had been there over 15 years. We talked about Cody and Forrest and the chase. I even talked to a (older) lady working the eatery which she asked if I was a friend of his that was in there about 10 years prior because I sure look like him.
    Anyway I see that Steve is no longer the director there, Betsy Martinson is, so maybe all the staff has change that’s why they are not familiar with Forrest and the chase.

    Did you get a chance to look around? There’s a geo cash to the left of his grave I found. And if you went to the observation deck above the museum and were to look towards the east and Golden area if you look quickly down the hillside there is a hidden cave dug out in the side of the mountain that was buried over, we uncover a hole and a fellow searcher went in- no treasure but cool to find.
    Did you also notice all the cut down trees like the back of TTOTC book illustration at the bottom trail area. There is also a cluster of boulders that looks just like the gold nugget layout with the frog and coin in the book, close to the big outcropping of boulders behind the picnic area. A lot of old cool stuff was found out there with my pinpoint metal detector.

    Definitely a wonderful beautiful place to visit.

    Good luck,

  60. Nice Bur, I have gotten away from my detecting as of late. I like considering places that might hold treasures old, considering 20,000 people filed past his grave way back then on that day, surely some things were left behind. No, I didn’t stray too far on my visit, good job rooting out what was there. I wasn’t looking for clues, but hints from Forrest and Bill were all around me. g

    • I bet your adrenaline was pumping uncovering that cave. When I find something like that in my spot I start to rationalize. I know Forrest said it’s not in a cave but is this technically a cave. It’s such a good spot, and there is no not going in. Plus who knows what treasure even older could be there. This talk reminds me of the time I thought I had found the hiding spot. We had spent several days digging through a scree field with a huge boulder sitting center. I was walking around the boulder with a hammer trying to ring a bell when one side reported back so hollow I got dizzy and fell back and dropped the hammer. I called to my search partner and got out the camera. I told him pick up that hammer and give the boulder a tap. He did and his eyes lit up. Could this be, the spot we were tapping looked slightly different than the rest of the rock. Has this been sealed? Give it a smash I said, and he did. Stone then fell away to reveal, more stone. I will never forget the feeling though. I do not dig there anymore since Forrest said the spot has remained unchanged except that caused by nature. A searcher would recognise the place if seen, it has been turned upside down. g

      • Ace340,

        There is a tunnel that goes under Cody grave. I had even thought below home of Brown might have been Cody bronze casket. LOL No never tried to get in.

        A herd of deer laying not far from his grave before daylight ( I could see their eyes with my flashlight) and at sunrise they casually walk right by his grave.

        By the way I left my two nickels near Cody’s headstone, and drank a beer in his honor.

        Quite a adventure back then.


    • ..more like an irrational reference to a backwards number.

      I just learned about chiasmi this morning on the CBC.

    • Not positive yet, got tftw in mail today and read cover to cover, have to go back for decoding and rabbit hole identification.

  61. For those of us without hats, what should we do? Maybe touch our noses with
    our fingers? (After having carefully washed our hands, that is)

    • Buy one (or more) that you like and fits your face, style, and personality. They’re great for protecting you in sun, wind, rain, cold, bumps to the noggin, useful as a fan, as a basket, and when you’re having a bad hair day. A good hat is an indispensable tool and an old, familiar friend.

      • Hmm . . . If I buy several hats, then I might want a nice rack.
        Staying warm (comfortable) is good.

        • Personally, I could hope for a rack of whine, but then again that’s just the wolf in me coming out! lol

    • I’m not yet sure if I’m that skilled, Lisa. I rely heavily on my wife for PIE making. I’m more of what you’d call a redneck or rebel in my neck o’ the woulds… I guess some of that, as you say, comes from “social distancing”.

      Let me say this though, that PIE looks awfully good! MMM… MMM!

      • Yes pecan pie looks great! With vanilla ice cream yummm. The rack would be great also but I’d feel spoiled if I had that. Can’t let myself get to soft . lol

  62. In the interview Forest did with Douglas Preston in 2019 he said he got the treasure idea from, what sounded like “Racho Renn”. Does anyone know who that is or if that is even what he said, I could be miss-hearing him. it is about 19:50 minutes into the interview. Thanks.

    • Susan, as others have pointed out in the recent interview with Forrest &Doug Preston, Forrest was giving credit to his friend Ralph Lauren for the idea.

      Ralph & Ricky Lauren’s “Pink Pony Campaign” gives you a peek into how their pique polo shirt empire
      benefits humanity and our planet. I admire their philanthropic effort.

  63. I would like to proffer my thoughts on certain attributes that could be useful in the chase.
    I don’t think a genius IQ is necessary to solve the poem and retrieve the chest. I do think certain things are helpful. I think it is VERY helpful if a person has a robust intuition. While the concept of intuition might seem nebulous to some, I would suggest the following article as a good starting place for understanding how and why it manifests itself within us. This discusses the topic within a business/professional context, but the concepts are given decent treatment. 

    Intuition seems to be built upon the foundation of all the information we take in, and I suspect that some people have formed, more than others, a habit of calling upon their intuitive faculty in the process of problem-solving and decision-making. Surprisingly, conclusions derived through one’s intuition are uncannily accurate.

    I would further point out that Forrest has pointed out/acknowledged intuition in a couple of places that come to mind immediately:

    From TTotC page 50: describing Skippy, he writes, “He never lost his inventiveness or his originality, and was the most intuitive person I ever knew.”

    From the following article he is quoted as saying, “Some of the most intuitive,” he told me, “stay quiet.”
    Ref: http://www.amtrakthenational.com/inside-the-epic-search-for-forrest-fenns-gold

    I think imagination is important also, but no one needs me to tell them that. Forrest has already told us. What do you think?

    • At the Top – Interesting article.

      I think use of one’s intuition does have merit in helping “find answers” to things we are questioning. And as expressed by the article, we probably use it more then we realize. Although my husband calls my “intuition” about someone I’ve just met as “pre-judging.” But ask him how many times I’ve been correct! LOL! In all seriousness though, I never intentionally try to make a quick assumption on anything. But there are times when you just “feel” something is either right or wrong. When, after taking all the facts into consideration I am still uncertain, I always go with my gut and it has done me well MOST of the time.

      Thanks to your article I now know I fall mostly in the Social, Conceptual thinker
      and my behavioral preference is 1/3 of the Expressiveness Spectrum, 1/3 of the Flexibility Spectrum. For what all that is worth. LOL!

      Thanks for sharing.

      • GG – Yep. People are intuitive about different stuff, I think, because we all take in, and pay attention to, different types of information.

        My wife’s “radar” for creepy people is also uncannily accurate 🙂

    • At The Top, my gut feeling tells me that this is a very good article, and pretty darn accurate. I plan to use my gut feeling on my next BOTG. One thing is for certain, I am not a structural thinker, as Time always escapes me. Now, I see, that I have something to blame my habitual tardiness on.

      The article states: “If normally remaining quiet and introspective is your preference, try stepping out of your comfort zone by sharing your gut feeling.” Yeah, that’s me. And yeah, I tried that just recently and my guts spilled out wrong. It was messy.

      • Thanks for your comments bird dog. For clarity, I would also add that I believe a searcher that desires success must bring a “balanced diet” of attributes to the problem at hand. Speaking strictly from my perspective, I don’t rely only on my intuitive faculty but also careful observation, logical thinking, and “a little bit of imagination,” among others.

        I would characterize the way I use intuition for this puzzle as “shining the light in the right directions,” as it were, to identify where I should be applying the other attributes, while simultaneously darkening the paths to rabbit-holedom 🙂

      • Howdy 42. So, let me guess…you have the answers to the ultimate questions of life, you’re an A & M alumnus, or, other?

        Interesting this abductive reasoning. Based upon the description I would say I’ve applied that a fair bit too, as I suspect a lot of searchers do. I didn’t know it had a name until now.

        Thanks for the reference.

        • Hello AtTheTop,
          Nope. None of your guesses apply to me.
          I’m a Montana native who did not attend A&M.

          I’ve had a handful of original thoughts, but leave answering those philosophical questions to folks far brighter and more articulate me.

          @If I could answer those big questions for the world, Do you think I would be spending my time on the blogs looking for a treasure??

          I am old enough to know who I am, and humble enough to admit mediocre intelligence I do still have all of my teeth. Lol

          • Well my friend, it was worth a try. My abductively reasonable guesses were a swing and a miss in this case, but fun nonetheless.

            Congrats on your teeth. I still have mine also but my hair said bye bye some time ago. Despite my follically-challenged crown, my mind has a few parts that stay at about thirteen. That probably explains why me…and you…and likely most on here, are here in the first place.

            Never too late to have a little fun.

          • @AtTheTop- It sounds like you and Forrest have things in common. Maybe you’ll be at the top of the heap with the winning solve.

    • wwwamericana,
      In Forrest’s family, listen to your “gut” may have meant hitting the sweet spot on a tennis racket with a well placed shot.
      His dad was a champion, and I’m guessing Forrest also played well.
      It would have been a big deal for him as a young man to finally beat his father at tennis.

  64. Thank you! I have to ponder the words that are written. Are some trying to share what they believe to know, who’s fishing for direction to another’s solution. Oh! How I wonder.

  65. Hahaha…. for the first time in 10 years of reading the poem and TTOTC…. I think I’ve got a eye on a likely area in the Rockies. Now to refine it… hope that doesn’t take another 10 years, I won’t last that long. Boy, those indians sure knew their geography.

    • OS2 – my $$$ has been on you for years. I hope that you are indeed more than half way to the treasure…metaphorically speaking!!

  66. Thanks Sally, but don’t put $$$ on it yet. I feel Like JDA who started with an arcane definition of ‘in the wood’ and has not varied from it yet. My place is not his, but the feeling is the same. I am unable to hunt, so when the time is right, and if what I can do by remote research pans out… I will reveal more…. perhaps. I wouldn’t want to spoil the fun for future searchers.

    • Now there’ll be a new date, I should be able to plan to drag family. This’ll be great!! That’s almost poetry!

  67. To All,

    I have a question for everyone. I have noticed there is a large number of searchers who don’t believe CO is the state hiding the chest. The reasoning being that there is no mention of CO or places in CO in TTOTC book. My question is this, what’s makes everyone think that the “subtle hints’ in the book indicate which state the chest is in?

    I ask this question for the following reasons:
    1. It is presumptive to assume the hints indicate which state to look in when we don’t know for sure what the subtle hints are.
    2. It is presumptive to assume to know anything about what information the hints ought to be providing us when we don’t know what sorts of hints are provided or the degree to which they may be helpful in the Chase.
    3. It is interesting how the absence of something is seen as indicative that the chest is not somewhere, as opposed to identifying something FF does say as indicative of where the chest may actually be.

    Looking forward to thoughts on this. All IMO.


    • Isn’t a hypothesis a presumptive statement of a proposition? I presume it’s what a treasure hunt is all about. I could be wrong.

      Funny you should ask the “what makes” question… From the git-go I always thought the first paragraph in the Preface told me to search in NM. Then the first line of the poem’s first stanza told me to go to Montana. So, I’ve been on a seesaw for 10 years. Then, just recently I found & presumed …. well, I’ll disclose that later.

      Good luck & cheers, all IMO. OS2

      • “As I have gone alone in there” told you to go to Montana . . .
        Good luck with that method. I honestly hope you enjoy, while
        hiking, the exercise and fresh air. Montana does have a lot of
        fresh air, I believe.

        • Hey Tall…. one one one . three ……. its a longitude. Confirmed by bold (tall, upright) and treasure. What, you didn’t see that at anytime in the past 10 years? Where you been? OS2?

    • Ann O,

      Yes. It is presumptive to assume anything.

      Ann O.
      “My question is this, what’s makes everyone think that the “subtle hints’ in the book indicate which state the chest is in?

      No, not everyone. I am someone, I don’t think that the “subtle hints’ in the book indicate which state the chest is in.

      If I remember correctly, Forrest said that the subtle hints in the book would help you with the clues, which I take it to mean; help you identify what some of the clues are.

      Careful with the “everyone” statements.

      Good Luck to you, Ann O.

      • OS2,

        Ought we to presume or hypothesize in the Chase? Or ought we to proceed with greater certainty? Is such possible? Does make one wonder don’t it? I would posit there is a difference between solving a problem and guessing what the answer may be. This illustrates the point.

        Those who suggest the subtle hints point to one state over another assume that is the intended purpose of the subtle hints. If the true purpose of the subtle hints is something else entirely, then focusing on which state they point to is rather fruitless. Thus, the task of identifying and utilizing these subtle hints can quickly become quite daunting. Perhaps they are more subtle than we imagine.


        You assume I meant everyone in the chase as opposed to everyone who thinks the subtle hints indicate which state to search in. 🙂 Superlatives don’t always refer to what we assume they do. And I am more in agreement with you than other ideas. All IMO.


        • Ann, sometimes one presumes, posits, hypothesizes, guesss …. and just gets lucky and solves it… or not. If not, then maybe some straws were eliminated from the hay pile, Your question was: “what’s makes everyone think that the “subtle hints’ in the book indicate which state the chest is in?” My question is: Sez who?Why not? And, what is the point in nailing down jello?

          • OS2,

            This is true. That’s probably why I prefer the physical sciences. Less of a crapshoot. And by no means am I ruling out the hints pointing toward which state to search in. Just found it curious that that is something many searchers believe the hints do. And I’d prefer to eat the jello so long as there aren’t any carrots in it!!! 🙂


        • Ann, you sound like a great person. Your observations and questions do provoke, but sometimes getting past all the stage-setting tests patience. I really admire how FF uses words as precisely as mathy folk use numbers; getting whole stories into a couple short paragraphs like mathematicians might represent a big idea with a small formula. It’s a mental battle I mostly lose, but it may be the secret to interpreting the clues. OS2

          • I am waiting for Dal to write a book too, he has his way with words… he seems to slap them upside the head and make them salute.

          • It’s been said a picture is worth a thousand words. Now it can be said forests word is worth a thousand pictures. I guess some things we have to figure out for ourselves.

          • OS2,

            Thanks for the compliment. I sometimes wish I had the answers to my own questions. While they may be thought provoking, they may not be as resolve solving as patience may like. Indeed a lot can be said with so few words.

            I hope time has not become a discouraging deterrent for those earnestly searching. Patience is quite the virtue. I imagine FF may have had his moments over the years, especially when finding out people had been so close to the chest whether they knew it or not! That could certainly drive someone nuts!

            It sometimes happens that the unexamined truth is not worth holding. And in such instances, we may only need a fresh perspective and newness of ideas.

            It is interesting to think of FF’s use of words in terms of mathematicians using formulae. I’m not sure whether that idea is helpful or distinguishable. In math, we often are able to solve problems based on prior knowledge. If you are familiar with my Pythagorean story, that is just such an example.

            But there are problems out there that require an entirely new idea, or hitherto unknown bit of information , in order to be solved. (Or even one known, but remotely so to the particular field or individual working on the problem.)

            We are disadvantaged in the Chase, in that we don’t share the same prior knowledge FF had in creating it. That makes the whole thing quite challenging, as time well demonstrates. But even the most coveted age old math problems will find themselves being resolved, such as the Poincare Conjecture (took over 100 years).

            Maybe that is where the book comes into play. I am not suggesting it contains the answers we wrestle with in attempting to understand the poem. But maybe, just maybe, there is enough subtle insight into how or what the resolution is in the Chase.

            This brief exchange of ours has given me a fairly good way of seeing how the book may prove useful, and I still have not yet read the book! But it just may be that, like an ordinary math book (such as algebra, geometry, calculus, what have you), we are being given the tools to resolve the poem and not the resolution itself.

            A prime example of this is that you will not find Euclid’s Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem in a geometry textbook. But you will find all the information you need in that same textbook to write the proof out yourself. I wonder then if FF’s hints don’t do the same for the Chase.

            I should really read the book! In the meantime, I look forward to more exchanges like this one. Thanks again. All IMO.


        • Hello Ann,

          My opinion is that Forrest’s memoirs are great reads. I enjoyed them immensely.

          I also believe everyone who reads them, lands in the 5th state…
          1. Montana
          2. Wyoming
          3. Colorado
          4. New Mexico
          5. Confirmation bias

          Confirmation bias serves a purpose to propel a searcher into action. However, only if you made the correct assumption about which state the treasure lies in will potential hints in his memoirs assist with narrowing down to the right state…unless something like “Mexico Beach”
          Handwritten in red letters is a HUGE hint to New Mexico; or the volume of Montana info is the BIG picture.

          The memoirs landed me in Montana – because I know it well and the clues fit. It took me 4 years to admit to myself it could be in 3 other states.. I finally gave my copies of 3 memoirs away, and began to see what exists in the poem. IMO, according to too many comments by ff to list, the poem, a good map & google earth are helpful tools.

          • 42,

            That tricky 5th state is hard to overcome at times. Makes you wonder if we can ever be as certain as FF prior to BOTG, during BOTG or only after we have chest in hand! Makes me wonder what it is everyone has been missing up until this point! Wish I was putting BOTG! All IMO.


      • I considered the logic in little/no mention of the already eliminated states. Presumptuous, I know.

        • BigOnus,

          I would like to know more about why you made such a consideration. While there are some who will argue any choice we make is a presumption of some sort, I would retort that not every choice is a presumption. For instance, if we were to hold up a flashcard that had “2+2=” on it, it would not be presumptuous of us to conclude with “4.” Overly simplistic I suppose but illustrates the point.

          If you have a fairly sound reason for making the choice you make, then your consideration becomes less presumptuous. As I have grappled elsewhere in these discussions, I find myself asking why in the case of the hints as well. Why do I believe this is a hint versus that? Why would this be a hint and not that? Asking why seems to lend credence to what.

          Don’t stop considering the possibilities. Try and find good reason for considering them. All IMO.


          • And bounce your ideas off of a trusted friend or family member. It’s hard sometimes to notice one’s
            own mistake(s). Just a suggestion. All IMO.

          • TA,

            Good idea. I’m willing to bounce my ideas off anyone willing to listen. With no plans for BOTG my ideas aren’t so coveted. Besides, if I can think them, then someone else can too. All IMO.


          • I’d be more than happy to evaluate/critique/enhance any solutions/ideas. At 74, it’s going to take a lot to get me BOTG from the Oregon COVID19 epi-center. My link has my email.

    • Ann … To ask >>> “what’s makes everyone think that the “subtle hints’ in the book indicate which state the chest is in?”, is sloppy writing.

      Your question is presumptuous. (Also, a word in your ear >>> check for obvious typing mistakes.)

      I therefore agree with ManOwar, to be “careful with the ‘everyone’ statements”.

      You said: “It is presumptive to assume the hints indicate which state to look in …”

      Yes it is presumptuous. But many searchers have been doing that for years. When combined with group-think, this unwarranted searcher presumption explains the heavy searcher emphasis on the Yellowstone area.

      And American culture does not do “subtle”. Subtlety went out of style thirty years ago. Modern communication demands in-your-face, obvious, blunt, screaming messages, the very opposite of “subtle”.

      As a result, since Forrest used unsubtle language about Yellowstone, searchers PRESUME that the chest must be hidden somewhere in that area.

      It is amazing to me that searchers are so sure that they know what those book hints are; yet searchers can’t seem to agree among themselves. Forrest must be terrible at giving out hints (heeheehee), or too subtle.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • Ken,

        Well said! Context is important. Guess I assumed readers would know what I meant by everyone which I explained elsewhere. And I never claimed to not be presuming when posing the question. It’s a curiosity not a criticism. I was looking more for the foundation or basis not a who do you think you are.

        I imagine that class of “everyone” is looking to the hints for a state when they are unable to find such in the clues. How nice, indeed, it would be to have the name place of anything involved with the Chase.

        All IMO.


        • PS-

          Like FF, I am not so concerned with the typos. It is not up to me for you to ascertain what I am trying to say.


      • The hints in the book could be so subtle as to not really be mentioned. Now there’s a concept.

        • FD,

          Well put. I said something similar in response to OS2 above. Certainly an approach worth taking a look at. I get the impression many are looking for direct answers in the book as opposed to tools to guide us. Not only do we not know what the hints are in the book, but we don’t really know what kind of hints they may be. It’s definitely worth considering every possibility. One of them is bound to be right!

          Not having been at this very long, I have the disadvantage of knowing which methods have been tried before. But that also allows me to be open to any of them.

          I find it interesting that FF has had all of these years to gather information about how searchers are viewing his poem and what they are thinking when it comes to trying to figure it all out. He has the distinct advantage of knowing whether anyone has been on the right track or not and how feasible it is for someone to solve the Chase correctly or even at all.

          And realizing all of that, he remains resolute in the words he has used from the get go. This suggests to me that FF believes his poem is capable of serving it’s intended purpose in the manner which he intended it to. Otherwise, he is equally capable of concluding the task impossible given the overwhelming data on searchers attempts over the years. But he has not made such a conclusion as evidenced by his resolve in regards to having used the right words for the job.

          And now my mind loops back to a discussion I was a part of elsewhere regarding what the words could possibly mean. FF’s confidence in the words used suggests to me that they are the best possible words to accomplish the task, and in pondering why, I am led to their potential meanings. Otherwise, a different set of words would seem to work better.

          We are inclined to ask why did FF say this or why did FF use that. Maybe we should also ask why didn’t FF say that or why didn’t FF use this, instead. And while this particular post has nothing to do with suggesting what the hints in the book may be, sometimes it’s not what people say, but what they don’t say that is important.

          I premised that last line because I do not mean to suggest that the absence of mention of CO or places in it in the book suggest that is the state we should be looking in. While that is certainly a possibility, I do not wish to propagate it here. My remarks were more about the words in the poem, and the ones that are not.

          All IMO.


          • Ann, the words in the poem….

            Let’s start with the first word in the poem “As”.

            What meaning do you think that contributes to the first stanza?

          • AS is yet another word in the poem that can relate to “time” and is presented in context of past tense… While clues seem to be in present tense.

          • I agree, Seeker.

            I think the word also “relates” things in time…as in a comparison.

          • FD,

            We should probably start a new thread on this soon as it is bound to get quite long and we will have to do a lot of scrolling! But to your question…..

            The word “As” is being used as a conjunction in this instance and it’s use is in the following sense:

            “used to indicate that something happens during the time when something is taking place”

            Hope that helps! All IMO.


          • Ann,

            You stated, “This suggests to me that FF believes his poem is capable of serving it’s intended purpose in the manner which he intended it to. Otherwise, he is equally capable of concluding the task impossible given the overwhelming data on searchers attempts over the years.”

            If you would have said nearly impossible instead of impossible I think you would have hit the nail on the head. Maybe that is his intended purpose of the poem, being nearly impossible, and the poem is serving it’s intended purpose.
            It is obviously straight forward to the creator of the poem, but very very vague to one who has no idea what he is referencing with each clue. Or even what word, stanza, or sentence in the poem is a clue. (Besides the first clue, which he has told us).

            FF has said that there are many places WWW halt and until and ONLY until you have the chest in your possession will you know if you have the correct WWWH (paraphrasing).

            Isn’t it hard to go with confidence when the only assurance you have that your solve is correct is to actually have the chest in your hands?

            I’ve gone with confidence as FF stated (paraphrasing) and had my confidence drowned in the waters high, or dashed upon the heavy loads.

            I think FF wanted his bones found with the chest, not his body.

            All IMHO

          • FD,

            That’s one reason why the poem might need more imagination. Folks want to see the poem as now only… Yet for any thought to be had about years from now would need the same ideas relating to the past… Especially on a geographical time line.

          • BroStevo,

            Well said. Yes I imagine he intended nearly impossible. I was more or less driving at the same point you explain just with greater emphasis on FF’s ability to gauge how well or horrible searchers are doing in terms of the Chase.

            I don’t imagine he would ever want it to be an impossible task. Given ten years of searcher data, I imagine FF can decide how easy or daunting the task may be for us. I was also trying to hint at the notion that if he came to the conclusion that the Chase may appear impossible to the rest of the world, he may have been inclined to make adjustments. Sort of like if I were to write a textbook and no one who took the course ever learned the material correctly, then I may want to reexamine my textbook.

            And thanks for pointing out the irony of WWWH and the chest. We don’t typically think about it, but FF has creators bias! I do not mean to take away from what he has created by any means. Just would like to give those who have been at it long and maybe feel it is becoming more and more daunting, that it isn’t some stroke of genius that renders the poem an obstacle that cannot be overcome. The answers are just obvious to FF!

            Oh that they were made so obvious to us as well! Thanks for sharing and I look forward to further commentary.


            Not sure where you are/were headed with starting with “as” but if it is going somewhere I think Dal is willing to start a new thread. Let me know if it has a topical focus.

            All IMO.


        • Dear Mr. Fenn,
          We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.Thank you for a great book

          All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f

          Subtle Clues in The Thrill of the Chase
          November 12, 2015
          Mr. Fenn,
          You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book.
          My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
          No I don’t madam, sorry. f

          I like both these ATF’s. If I was to ask a question, I think it would be from this statement, “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.

          Question, could someone 500 years ago, with the poem in hand, (a hypothetical), find the chest?

          Have to also consider this ATF,
          Question posted 6/27/2014:
          Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19

          No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f

          No specialized knowledge is required
          All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem
          (throwing a wrench in the thinking cogs).
          What you all think?

          • poisonivy,

            Well laid out! These ATFs are the sort that cause me to lean away from certain ideas that have been shared in the threads and consider others as more plausible. All IMO.


          • I think that FF has been deliberately vague when
            he says “treasure”. He could, most of these times, be referring to scenery. Last time I was at “the golden arches”, I couldn’t barter an excellent color photo of a gorgeous lake for a cup of coffee.

            If I find a bronze chest containing lots of gold and
            jewels, I will take a lot of excellent color photos and videos to share with other folks who have searched for the thing. Good luck, all. IMO.

    • Hi Ann;

      As many know, my search state is Wyoming. When I first started the Chase 50 months ago, my first solve was in Montana. After reading TTOTC, I changed my search area to Wyoming – but NOT in Yellowstone area. Why?

      Yes, the summers that Forrest spent in Yellowstone intrigued me, but so did his stories and comments relating to Cody (Buffalo Cowboys), and his ride (and walk) with his brother across Wyoming (The Long Ride Home). The mentioning of Shoshoni, Casper, Lander and other places in Wyoming, in these, and other stories, caught my attention.Things like the story in “In Love with Yellowstone”,about the one room school house also seemed important. It was for these, and several other reasons that I chose Wyoming.

      So, it was the mentioning of Wyoming that caught my attention, NOT the lack of mentioning that might lead me to or away from Colorado.JMO – JDA

      P.S. – I am still VERY happy with my choice – 🙂 JDA

      • JDA,

        While I have not read the book as of yet, I am familiar with some of the places you mention in WY and for the same reasons. I find those places more interesting than YNP. I think I asked elsewhere if anyone had ever found that single room school house. I would be interested to know where it is located. That entire mystery reminds me of those famous words attributed to the oracle of Delphi. And obviously, it was something important enough for FF to share with the world.

        I have no real reason to be drawn to or away from CO either. The only thing that really ever took me to anywhere in that state is a very specific methodology of the notion of a “key word” and marrying the map to the poem. Otherwise nothing else.

        Thanks for sharing! All IMO.


    • Ann, I think you are correct about your assumptions. How could the no mention of CO be a ‘subtle hint’ that is not there? But worst, how could the stories of his childhood summers in Yellowstone be also a ‘subtle hint’ that it is somewhere in that area? It comes down to- It’s not who you are, it’s who they think you are.

      • Oz10,

        Thanks! I was wondering where you had disappeared to! Hope all is well.

        And to a certain someone whose remarks didn’t quite make the cut (not you Oz10) I have one word for you: Serendipity.

        All IMO.


  68. To all:

    It’s been fun but my time with the chase has come to an end. I have the three books and a few others to go with, If anyone is interested let me know. Prices will be very reasonable as I am done with them and they are well used!

    Let me know.


  69. Insomnia again… so….that pic of Skippy holding the BOULDER in the LONG RIDE HOME …Can anyone tell me, did it predate Hiighway 25, routed thru Cheyenne? In circa 1944-45, was the route Skippy took likely to be from Casper thru Laramie to Boulder? Rocky Mt. Natl. Park has peaked my interest lately. Lottsa Chief Nigh over there, and a little E.A.Poe too.

    Seriously… and please, is there a link to old road atlases? Thank you. OS2.

  70. Hi, folks!

    I don’t know where we’ll be in terms of the COVID-19 situation by the time search-season finally begins this year, but I thought I’d share how it’s been going here in Colorado. Essentially the epicenter of the outbreaks here has been up in the mountains at the major ski resorts along the I-70 corridor like Vail, Copper Mountain, etc. It makes sense since tons of people from both coasts and all over the world come here for the skiing before the severity of the virus was widely known. So anyone who has been up in that area over the past few weeks is being told to self-quarantine until they can confirm that they didn’t get the virus (everyone else is self-quarantining too of course, but they’re telling these people not even to interact with immediate family, run errands, etc. until they know for sure).

    I imagine that this may be similar for the ski resort areas in the other search states like Angel Fire, NM and Jackson Hole, WY. Long story short, if you’re still planning BOTG this season and figuring out hotels/campsites/side-trips, I would strongly recommend avoiding the ski resort towns/areas if you can help it. Thanks for reading!

  71. Hey Blex and all..I live in Durango and have a bit of insight as well. I am told by our Medical Director that for every positive diagnosed case of Covid-19, there are 20 to 200 undiagnosed “presumptive positive” infectious people with the virus in the US. In LaPlata County we have not had the ability to test until yesterday. Bottom line is that the test is not widely available. We can all do the math…and the reality is that the numbers of positive cases reported are grossly inaccurate. Coronavirus has been in the community for much longer than many people are aware. Stay home, everyone!! Practice social distancing!! The test is essentially useless as it will only confirm that you need to stay home (unless you symptomatically qualify for hospitalization). Things are evolving so quickly my head is spinning. Its wild and woolly in health care right now. We are feeling overwhelmed in our little community with the demands on our health care system, and what little is in our stores the locals need access to. Our shelves are empty. Please be considerate when planning your next BOTG. And bring your own toilet paper!!! Thanks.

    • Sally… you take good care. I appreciate every last one of you folks out there on the front lines. Please be safe. Soon… there will be an abundance of tp for everyone.

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