Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Five


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588 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Five

  1. This blog is non-political and non-religious…It is also Coronavirus and CoVid-19 free…

    That means comments about politics, religion, Coronavirus or CoVid-19 will be removed.

    This blog is about the search for Forrest’s hidden chest. There are other blogs to discuss those other topics. Please use them for those comments…not this one.

    Addendum on April 4th
    I added a page just for comments about how we are coping with coronavirus:


    • Hmm….let’s see if I can make an addition to the chase.
      Some time ago I managed to track down a possible break of the house of brown, after some research I scratched that first possible breakthrough.
      The House / Home of Brown is actually called: Casa de Las Nubes. English translation meaning: house of the clouds, wherein Eric Sloane built for himself in the northwest part of Santa Fe. (Oh it’s for sale for nearly $2.5 million) .
      There’s no way in the world that this is where the chest is hidden, nor is there a creek or river nearby to stash said treasure.
      My second thought was to research the many names of the word Brown that is in use in New Mexico.
      The one that is overlooked in many items that is floating around the net is: Cimarron….
      My thoughts have centered on only one possible breakthrough with the clue; is that this house of brown would have to be a permanent fixture upon the landscape…one that’s not gonna change for many centuries to come…..
      Cimarroncito…..the mountain.
      Dal, a couple of months back I sent you an email, stating that I have a possible solution to the Chase. This break is the only one that makes any sense to the clue.
      To put in below the house/ home of brown, means that it’s below the mountain top., or south of the mountain.
      Thx for reading my ramble.

  2. I hope everyone is safe and sound during this unexpected alteration in our everyday lives.
    I really makes me realize how much we have to be thankful for.

    Thank you Forrest and Dal for the diversion, great time to reflect on what matters the most. To me it’s family and relationships, not monetary gain or material possessions.

    Good health and be safe.

    • Ya! It’s awesome! There’s an episode about a guy who hides a Treasure in the wilderness and they……… Hey, wait a minute…

    • Yep it’s a cool episode but might and might not have a connection been discussed here various times . But something to keep in the back of your FF journey/journal…

  3. Dal – if I might ask a “what if” question of you.
    What if this Chase does have a religious connection?
    Can you say for certain (per Forrest) that it does not?
    Hopefully you won’t “poof” me and make me disappear.

    • I do not think it’s a religious connect at all!!!!
      I think and 100% personally believe it is a Forrest Fenn Connection. The place geographically, physically and numismatic. Someday this will be proven…

    • WWW-

      In reply to your question…
      I wish that everyone was respectful when commenting on the blog…
      If that were the case I would not have to moderate or edit…

      But that’s not the case…You will simply need to have that discussion on some other blog or forum…

      Let me explain-

      It’s been tested here on several occasions..
      Religious and political discussions have each and every time turned into uncivil, heated arguments between polarized debaters and easily slipped away from any chase related relevance to the arcane, dehumanizing and pointless…
      Useful discussions turn into endless battles between believers and non-believers, conservatives and progressives…
      Finally arriving at dispirited loathing and name calling.
      And to make matters worse some folks thrive on that stage…jump into the fray, pile on… and for that reason look to sidetrack a healthy conversation and stir the pot.

      I don’t want to see that on this blog anymore.

      The folks here on this blog are simply the best…
      They are interested, imaginative, contributive and respectful.
      But after nine years administering this blog I know that many humans when hiding behind screen names are not respectful of others.
      Right now there are a few hundred folks banned for lack of respect and a hundred or more in moderation because they have demonstrated a lack of interest in following the blog rules…

      I trust the folks who daily comment on this blog to act fairly for the common good of solving the riddle of the poem. I merely scan their daily comments…missing many…
      In contrast, I read every single moderated comment to determine if it contributes to the conversation. I don’t enjoy putting folks in moderation because it means more editing by me…more time editing means less time writing…

      Editing also means that every day I toss 10-20 comments by trolls and nutcases into the trash…everything from comments about all searchers being greedy jerks just stealing god’s gold… to some nutcase who keeps hearing voices on his unplugged TV telling him about how evil we all are and wants me to make the voices stop…
      I see death threats to Forrest and his family and I see messages from folks who demand that I tell them where the chest is hidden.

      I toss hundreds of spam comments into the trash…
      Sometimes I don’t see them and they get onto the blog…
      This all takes time to sort out…
      I’m not interested in adding to my editing workload

      I’m also not interested in this blog becoming an unmoderated free-for-all..
      I respect decorum, common sense and practical limits…

      Discussions which soon plummet to name calling, heated arguments and belittling the deeply held beliefs and sensitivities of others are not tolerated here.

        • Dal,
          Thank you for 9 years of unselfish & thoughtful dedication to operating this excellent TTOTC treasure blog.

          I’ve followed here 7 years and without exception find you to be fair, on point & reasonable…not to mention your gift for story telling. I appreciate your time given freely to administering this blog which must be frustratingly humorous behind the scenes. The times I’ve landed in moderation have been purposeful, reminding me to cite references, on the correct threads, etc.
          I also appreciate your not-so-fun daily task sifting through nut case comments, inappropriate language, heated bickering, and possible threats. Thank you for allowing non TTOTC religious expression on the poetry page. I’m one who does read veiled references to Forrest’s spiritual beliefs in the poem, but like you have witnessed how quickly opposing beliefs derail that type of discussion here and in life.

          I know you are not fishing for complements but honestly I can’t think of a better person to put up with a wide swath of humanity, all anxious to discuss their ideas, all competing for the same prize.

          Thank you Dal.

      • Thank you Dal!

        Without you, I never would have found the chase and I hope that you know how much myself and everyone appreciates what you do for us!

        What you provide for us isn’t just a blog anymore. It’s sort of a way of life, now! I look forward to reading people’s comments and ideas every day!!

        I’ve often thought about what will happen to this blog once the treasure is found and honestly, it saddens me. There are people on here that I feel I’ve come to know quite well and I wonder if at some point it will all just vanish away. I’d like that not to happen.

        Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you are very much appreciated!! I know that if I’m fortunate enough to find indulgence I want to share some with you!!

        Stay safe, everyone!!


      • Dal,
        You have done an amazingly effective job at keeping the trash out, imo. In fact, I have barely noticed any rowdiness. Just great random thought provoking ideas. Thank you! 🙂

      • Dal – Thank you so much for responding.
        I was not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest.
        Just wondering how silly we would feel if there was some sort of connection and we had “avoided” discussing it.
        Your job as administrator has to be relentlessly aggravating at times but also joyously rewarding sometimes too.
        Appreciate all you do – your efforts will be worth the cold.

      • Unless you know the correct solve, how can a subject of discussion be forbidden here? I understand sometimes people cause problems during a discussion, so why not band the disruptive poster? Heck, over the past 7 years I’ve heard a lot of unnecessary or rude comments by someone ( not related to the current discussion)… I’ve seen it on many topics, including the WWWH Page. Should that topic of discussion be forbidden here also? It makes no sense to me. IMO, if a topic is forbidden here , and we can only discuss certain topics , this thing may never be figured out… there are scrapbooks, presented by Forrest that suggest religion could be involved… the Riliquary cross, churches in paintings, are examples. I’m not going to name them all, but they are there none the less… look back through them and jot down how many are related to religion, catholic, Virgin Mary, etc… even politics, senator’s, government etc…
        So IMO, until the correct solve is known, forbidding topics such as these is kinda like having pieces missing from a puzzle.
        The problem lies in the disruptive posters not the subject… heck, can’t anyone disagree with another persons opinion anymore without being rude and ugly?
        Troublemakers should be forbidden, this is suppose to be fun and rewarding, not the topic in my opinion….
        I guess what I’m saying is, don’t limit topics according to personal preferences Or a few bad apples in the basket…..
        That my 2 cents on this. Take it with a grain of salt…….


        • Focused, your on the right track and so is Dal, when he said “I’m also not interested in this blog becoming an unmoderated free-for-all..
          I respect decorum, common sense and practical limits…

          Discussions which soon plummet to name calling, heated arguments and belittling the deeply held beliefs and sensitivities of others are not tolerated here.”

          The point of view or subject thereof should be made as liberal as it can without a smell or snif test getting in the way, you know a fly in the ointment analogy.

          In the Epilogue of the Thrill Book, it seems clear who Forrest reveres and gives praise too at the end, double omega, in life and death, it is William Marvin Fenn, whose funeral was held at the large First Baptist Church in Temple, Texas, to say that a metaphor of a place in the Rockies that could be his church but we cannot use it as a place of spiritual significance that would be a disgrace, so that is why it should not be off limits in my opinion of the possible place, known as the basin WWWH. It is peaceful even if religious? Something posted so clearly by Forrest yet so offensive to some? Clearly political correctness has run afoul of me.


          • I have had TROLLS posting stuff on some of my Youtube videos, yet I let them be known for the shallowness of their comment on stands in contrast of my accomplishments, this is available if you read below some of my posts here is one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-GD4vhA3No
            the trolls are small people and I am reminded of “Teddy Roosevelt” speech

            “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

            Go Teddy! TT

          • TT,

            Maybe Dal can open a topic room for just that sort of discussion? Call it “Possible religious connections? That way those whom feel that it might be can discuss it and the ones that don’t, well, they don’t have to waste their time!?


            My 2 cents…


          • That’s a great idea ByGeorge… then those who wish to enter can and those who wish not wont…. I doubt that page will become reality, but it would be a simple solution… thank you for suggesting it….
            Have a great night…. see ya my friend

    • Several of Mr Terrifics WWWH antics without Question have gone away, especially the ones about 3 Crosses and a basin? But someone has to draw the line somewhere since ff has self-described as a type of reforming Baptist/Conservative…

      That is why Winter Thoughts II, The astonishing Scrapbook reveal is not going out on the Ides of March as propagated.

      Spiritual is apparently Religiously inflammatory. We shall see how long that lasts.


      • TT… I’ve always loved you thoughts about the chase… I’m rooting for ya my friend… see ya

        • A soft answer turneth away wrath…So why is “Important Literature” both important and a hint when it is written with the influence of Salinger in a Holden C. tone. To prove where the borders are in this, a spiritual message, that is Where Warm Waters Halt. If you can find it, you can have it.
          “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” Oscar Wilde
          “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.”
          Mahatma Gandhi
          “Any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.” John Donne
          Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift of God, which is why we call it the present.”
          ― Bill Keane… I thinks this is WWWH in ff’s dream, now if I can only prove it.

          Thank’s Focused, we all need to be seen for the little voices and tiny stick figures we are, that is what makes up a great nation. One comedian at a time, U are focused and I feel Terrific!


      • Could it be that Dal wants the discussion(s) not to wander too far
        from the subject of this treasure hunt? I think that would be
        reasonable. Otherwise, people would bore others with talk about
        their favorite sweater color for their pet turtle (or something
        equally exciting). There are other forums available for just about
        any subject you want to discuss. And yes, I like a variety of
        foods that aren’t just spaghetti and meatballs. As always, IMO.

    • Sounds like I’m done here….. I’m a “loner” when it comes to my solve so I write on the poetry page so that I can interact with like minded searchers..without that page I’m mute… there is only so much poetry a person can Pen about the chase…. my mind is not a one track mind….sorry guys…

      Until it’s found…. see ya

      • Enjoy your rest OUR friend.
        Hope you’ll be back soon.
        Thank you for all your words. 🙂

        Pauley T

  4. Big thanks to meBigGuy for those map links on the prior Odds & Ends. They were terrific… but not as detailed as I’d hoped for. Guess auto tourism between Casper-Laramie-Boulder in the 1940’s was a mite rustic …. but still maybe attractive to 2 gutsy kids on their own. Thanks again for the links to a very interesting site. OS2

    • I used them to determine possible routes between Temple and Yellowstone and studied WWWH, etc in those areas. Potential campsites, side trips, interesting routes, etc. Did not yield anything useful for me, though.

  5. The first stanza also contains the letters to spell out Yellowstone and Madison. IMO…

    • Canon City JB,

      Cyphering or coding has been looked at by some pretty sharp minds to no avail.
      By all means please continue your research into this rabbit hole. Never can tell. You might meet Alice.

      Posted with tongue in cheek.

      • as I have:
        g one
        al one
        l one
        a lone
        in t (here, t in front)
        lol, what a stretch…

  6. Dal,

    I was concerned I was missing new posts on this new page of the Odds and Ends thread. But it appears the First Stanza thread has turned out to be quite the craze. I am posting this here in order to subscribe to this page. Is there a way to subscribe to new pages without having to post? If so I am unfamiliar with how to go about that. Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks for the First Stanza thread too!


  7. Taking words at their basics.
    Begin = Alpha
    Warm = middle
    Halt = Omega

    The remaining words might be the “rest of the story?”

    There are 13 letters left
    Could that possibly mean 13 letters of the alphabet?
    Or could it mean B as treasure hunters use B as a 13?
    That means that one is near the area or on the right tract perhaps.

    Or could It mean 3 particular things? like Springs?
    One which begins at the end (halt) of another with a third in the middle of the two?
    Or entrance, exit, middle between?
    Or the middle of alphabet = M (Mu in Greek alphabet)
    Or take off, flying, landing
    Or departure, drive, arrive

    Real words at their most basic might be a way to figure out the poem, perhaps?
    If so, it might help knowing to look at “bits as a whole” as opposed to words Individually maybe?

    Just theorizing again.

    • Another word basic could be the word “it”
      One of the synonyms of it is draw
      Could draw mean
      Black and white
      And if so does that link to the words at the beginning or end or to canyon or waters?
      Like there is a Dark Canyon Draw, for instance in NM. on the Pecks and great fishing near Hamilton Mesa and south of Kennedy ______..

      Just more thinking of sentence-word- bits as a whole

      • Hi Copperhead,

        Something you have posted here is ringing in my head.
        It=draw. ” The end is ever drawing nigh ”
        Ummmm. Food for thought.


    • Ants and eleph-ants, logic and logical.
      I find the short length of poem words made that effort seem fruitless, but hadn’t thought about letter shapes.

      • I had fun playing around with this for ages. Like in north English dialect “But, t’ risk ant..” tarry scant and ” York west two seas”. My imagination goes into overdrive at times. I even joked with myself ff did not eat meat for late dinner. “as I vegan..” As I have gone.. but knew its was just madness.

        Anyway, I had a dream ff was upset with me messing with his poem so made a promise to behave!

        People seem to be looking for a one channel route to solve this poem, but I believe it has multi layers and needs a mixture of good thinking, mapping, imagination, understanding and creativity to develop and then fit the parts together. Bit like a Cubic rube.

        All in my opinion. I am no nearer solving this than you guys, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

  8. As I have g on e al on e in there. As I have the grale.
    g (r=are) a le, As I have the ale. (ale spelled wrong, explains when he was sick, the start of the idea).

    Are you starting to break down the poem 42, or have you always approached the poem this way? It’s confusing for those who don’t see it but easy as hell for those that do. All 24 lines can be broken down this way. Not saying it’s the way to go, just very interesting.

  9. I’d like to point out a relatively new vlog to those who have not already found it.
    “Smell the Sunshine”

    This guy is examining Forrest’s writings in a fascinating style that I find very enjoyable.

    He doesn’t really identify himself beyond a brief “about” page. I don’t think he is anyone here on the blog but he has created a very intriguing set of eleven short videos that look at Forrest under a unique “literary” light. He unveils several interesting ideas that I have not heard anyone discuss before…

    I don’t think you have to watch them in any particular order. I watched the most recent one first and then watched the others randomly…


    • Pretty interesting videos. Makes you think a little harder and look at angles you might not have prior. Anything that keeps me busy in this Washington state shut down.

    • Thanks Dal! I can’t comment enough on how much you do for the search community here on your blog. It’s truly appreciated. I’ll definitely take a look. It’ll be nice to have a fresh perspective to ponder.

    • Thank you Dal! It’s a great channel. The created playlists are very good too! Lots of stuff to learn there also. It’s going to be an interesting search season this Summer. Keep them posts coming!

  10. Tonight I was studying old memorabilia. I think I see where Forrest got his signature style. g

  11. My thought on anagramming is it is a waste of time when it comes to “solving” the location of the cache. Anagrams are the epitome of confirmation bias because invariably the results of anagramming provides several choices from among the various permutations of letters which form the words returned. Of course the searcher will choose those words which “seem” to have relevance to the chase, and thereby reinforce their biases regarding the “correct” meaning to be gleaned from the anagrammed letters. This is the definition of confirmation bias. If your solve involves anagrams, I think you’d serve yourself well to re-examine your ideas, especially if the anagram provides the impetus for the epiphany regarding the clue. IMO.

    • Ronnylee … I think you are quite correct.

      Several years ago I went down the anagram road. Not content just to find “Yellowstone” spelled out in some line or stanza, I tried finding other place names. Among the locations I found in the poem were “Capetown South Africa”.

      In lines 1 and 2 of the poem, the searcher can find “Darwin, Australia”. I rather doubt that either of these two cities has anything to do with the treasure hunt. 🙂

      You can find almost any place name you want if you are willing to expand your letter chain to phrases, poem lines, or the entire poem.

      Further, looking for anagrams is actually a search for confirmation, and that search does indeed lead to confirmation bias.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • How can you be so sure they are not part of the chase Ken? Any dismissal of an evolving solve might be premature.


    • I agree Ron. When I needed confirmation of my solve I spent days deep in this hole. Grown beard, unbathed, I emerged with anagrams solved that were frankly beautiful and all in line with BOTG locations and directions of my voyage of discovery.

      I then took a block of the same text and made something just as compelling but polar opposite to what I wanted it to say. Beautiful again.

      It is there if you want it to be, but it will not lead you to the chest though, IMO.

      Having said that, I must profess, there is one small piece of text that I struggled to make work on anything else except the general area of my solve. May be serendipity again. I could only work on this knowing my location though, so no starting point.

      Anagrams are fun.

    • Most people are totally lousy at making anagrams. I shouldn’t have to say you can’t have any letters left over, but people are soooo lousy at making anagrams they don’t even know that basic rule.

      I often read people’s petulant opinion about anagrams because they can’t even make a single good one. Why bother knocking them when you can’t do them?

      Should I believe those people must be much more intelligent in some different mysterious way? Or should I just assume that person gave up in misery and is whining out loud?

      • So…are you saying you’re a fan of anagrams or not? Im not really sure by your statements.
        I’m not pouting over anagrams—I just offered an opinion for entertainment’s sake. That opinion is…they are a scrambled pile of letters that can confirm biases pretty well, but beyond that, you might as well read tea leaves or cast yarrow straws to divine the location of the heavy loads. Whatever floats your boat is certainly fair practice because it’s your boat after all. Some like to row, some prefer to sail, some enjoy motoring, and some will swear the best mode of aquatic perambulation is sculling in a coracle.

        • If I tried to dissuade anybody from following their preferred methodology to solve the Chase, I would be banned from this site or at least be put on moderation.

          We can disagree, no problems. But if you want to condescend, I will again protest. There was no “I think” or “IMO” in your assertions.

          Peace. I am sensitive when it comes to seven years of work.

          • Muset, RonnyLee, I wouldn’t discount FF’s use of an anagram, but I think it would be playful, and taken from a word or two used in the Epilogue Chapter where he used ‘flutterby’ as an example of a little bit for learning more. I always liked that ‘attributed’ was ‘a dirt butte.’

      • I admit I would probably stink at anagrams if I ever cared about trying them. But why in the world would you create a brand new set of infinite possibilities when the goal is to narrow down an already seemingly insurmountable combination of variables to find a small box in the mountains? You chisel away at a stone until you find the beautiful statue that’s hidden underneath. You don’t go out and buy 10,000 more blocks and hope that maybe one of them looks like a beautiful naked woman playing a harp. (Well, maybe some of you would!)

        You can hate me two times if you like but even Mr. Mojo Risin would tell you how easy it is to scramble words to make them into something that suits your purpose. I’m sure they’re fun but using them to solve Fenn’s riddle is folly.

  12. Anagrams introduce chaos. Turning one into many. You can’t take an IKEA instructions manual, reassemble THAT anyway you like, and call your original result furniture… At least not without you and your relatives catching raised eyebrow disease. But fenn may know someone who knows someone who could display it in an art gallery.

    However, there is something on marrying locations of a map: names are a bit more permanent than natural landmarks. But they present a challenge since names refer to general areas. How could the clues get you closer to the treasure? Exactly how? Do they necessarily?

    Is the poem 1. a slide in a childrens park where you only have to be at the top to toboggan down to the chest? 2. or is it a long string with 9 knots glued to the ground? 3. or a tumbler lock where the nine parts have to be right to hear that click? 4. or an architected maze one must rebuild to find its secret passages? 5. ?

    If you wanted for it to be found or not, you’d tailor these design decisions to that goal.

    • I did an exercise on this blog where I had posters throw out exact directions to a bar/restaurant only using “landmarks” not street names, no “numbers” nothing like 32nd ave sort of thing…

      when that was done, I used the best parts of all and made a “description map”, I think 80% of people could find the restaurant from this description map, then I spent all of 15 mins obfuscating it, it still was the same directions, just slightly changed the names/words to be less obvious but seeing the two it was decipherable to anyone… when I was done, I wouldn’t even be able to find the restaurant if only seeing the second one…. when ff was done he thought it was too easy and spent 15 years (or so) making it harder… (ouchie)

      that is what we are dealing with, so it can be as straight forward as one wishes in your examples… not going to be of use unless we think the right thoughts though.

    • Hi Snails,

      IKEA doesn’t ask its customers to find a treasure at the end of their dead-simple instructions.

      Chaos can be controlled with rules and constraints if you can imagine applying some of those to the methodology. Start by discovering a key word, for example.

      Names are actually less permanent on a map than actual geographical features, in my experience. For examples, Gardner River was once called Warm Springs Creek; Electric was once call Horr; Corwin Springs was once La Duke Hot Springs; and the land owner tried to rename Devil’s Slide to Angel’s Ascent.

      Good luck and I hope you enjoy your quest to find a logical and consistent methodology.

  13. As of yesterday evening, the entire state of Colorado is now on stay-at-home lockdown order until at least April 11th. Being the most populous of the search-states, I guess it doesn’t surprise me that it would be the first one to do this. (Though I’m a bit annoyed that this was suddenly announced yesterday evening and went into effect at 8:00 am this morning, giving businesses zero time to make any arrangements. A minimum 24 hour heads-up would have been more in the realm of sensible, IMHO.)

    I won’t be surprised if something similar kicks in for New Mexico relatively soon. Wyoming and Montana may be sparsely populated enough to ride this out without a full lockdown (much fewer cases in both of those states at the moment), but we’ll see how it goes. Hoping that whatever happens, everything is squared away in time for search season.
    Stay healthy, everyone!

    • Blex – Without getting into the CV pandemic ( I don’t want Dal to X us! LOL!) it does indeed obviously, as you have stated, effect the search community. I feel like this year has presented some interesting thoughts and possible solves from many searchers who are more then ready to get out and test them. We can only hope that by the time search season is in full swing, things will be under control. Otherwise, it may prove to be a total bust this year for of us.

      I’m not sure I could endure another full year of brain work and no counter balance of BOTG! LOL!

      • Relax= Your mind and thoughts your study, dig deep if we can not botg look at us all as being equal unless we all have the same opportunity. Rest easy I think all will be well once the snow and mud are no more .. be well all!!

    • BLEX,,
      OF COURSE, dont know your loc. in CO., but in S.
      Co. cept for gov, and some reduced hrs by some retail,
      lt almost biz as usual.
      COURSE, as far as N Co is concerned, we’re part of NM anyway.

    • Blex …

      I don’t think any stay-at-home or lockdown “order” prevents interstate or intrastate travel.

      In other words, how would this so-called “order” render highway traveling through Colorado a crime?

      Ken (in Texas)

      • Ken (in Texas) – Yeah, I haven’t seen any enforcement in place whatsoever, but who knows? This situation seems to be changing day by day. In Colorado, the order came from the Governor and the only enforcement guidance they included was something along the lines of “we encourage local jurisdictions to enforce as they see fit” which is barely anything. Lots of people are still ignoring and doing whatever they want, so I see something coming up soon in terms of a bigger crackdown. I’ve been talking to friends in France, and they have police issuing fines to people who don’t observe the stay-at-home order.

        Anyways, sorry I rambled there. The main point I wanted to make here was that this virus IS starting to affect the search-states, so Chasers should just double-check what’s going on where before locking in travel plans.

      • Dialysis staff and patients were issued “Curfew” (permission to pass thru travel restricted area) letters 2 days ago. Navajo Nation in AZ with travel restrictions, Southern Ute Nation in Colorado eyeing same. No stopping or parking on side of road in San Juan County CO strictly enforced by Sheriff. Pass thru San Juan County only. Many back country closures in LaPlata county. That’s just our local news in southwest CO as it is evolving. Advice would be to check local road closures, back country closures and restrictions before you travel.

  14. Can someone please tell Cynthia to spray that umbrella with bear spray,
    cover as many bases as you can is the way I sees it! 🙂

    • Umbrella??? Late afternoon poncho! Find a piñon tree and hold on tight!! Those little storms are a kicker. No Griz though

  15. Forrest always signs off with .f
    Period no space lower case f
    Perio is defined as
    investing or surrounding a tooth
    ….hmmm into the teeth of the rockies..
    Loco, you got that full quote handy my friend?

    • Hi Jdiggins,
      I’ve read that Forrest has made countless trips into the Rockies. Considering the overall vastness of that mountain range, along with the many spots that Forrest could have hidden the treasure, it looks like you’re implying that a single tooth might be a snowcapped mountain. But what happens when that snow melts?

      • now! Didn’t know I implied that but it’s a great thought! I guess it’s no longer snow capped?

    • Jdiggins,

      The Tooth of Time maybe? Not far from Chase Canyon? I still wonder if that canyon isn’t what TTOTC refers to. Something in the way FF kept saying it all goes back to the thrill of the chase in one interview. His emphasis was uncanny. I wasn’t sure if he meant the book, the poem or this canyon. We should be prepared for any possibility I suppose!

      All IMO.


      • The Tooth of Time? Seems difficult to think that any man or woman could climb to those heights. Then again, and regardless of the risk, history seems affluent to repeat itself.

        • Suzy,

          The climb is made several times every year by Philmont trekkers. I am not suggesting it is part of the Chase. Just interjecting it into the discussion on teeth. All IMO.


          • Ann, hiking there probably involves more money and good looks than my bright smile has ever seen.

          • Suzy,

            Not sure what’d it cost but the path is not a steep one. Long maybe, but not steep. There’s a couple trails actually.

            Interestingly enough there’s an old plane crash on one of the peaks in that area as well. It was a WWII B-24 Liberator.


          • Definitely sounds worth the effort, even in the cold. Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

          • Suzy and Jdiggins,

            They say it is a great place to see the sunrise if you make it up there that early in the morning!


          • You two are making my mouth water with all this talk. I usually have to count sheep to get to sleep, and now I’m going to be sleep drooling instead.

        • I looked this too the mountain up, maybe he went up in a plane after lunch and parachuted down? Is it possible to parachute down twice a day? It’s next to the Santa Fe trail which goes back by his house, sounds like a possibility their.

        • Helicopter maybe. He’d have to be picked up shortly thereafter or he wouldn’t be able to make two trips.

    • hello jdig, if anyone can find the chest it will be you….tenacity is certainly not one of your shortcomings. (not to insinuate that you have any shortcomings whatsoever)

      “My favorite flights were those when I headed alone, and at 200 feet, into the teeth of the Rockies, not knowing, or caring, where I would land.”

      keep on keepin on my fren

  16. I was reading an article about how people are praying to Saint Corona because she is supposed to be the patron saint of epidemics. In the article was interesting sentence (see below) and I found myself praying to her anyway. 🙂

    “However, some reports say that while Corona is indeed a saint, she is the patron saint of treasure hunters and has nothing to do with epidemics, a scholar told the National Catholic Reporter,noting that St. Edmund or St. Roch are the proper saints instead”.

    • OMG… a zillion treasure virus jokes come to mind. I still have will power though, and will shut-up now.

    • Wow, that’s a really interesting find, Sparrow!

      According to Wikipedia: “She is invoked in connection with superstitions involving money, such as gambling and treasure hunting.”

      She was apparently martyred by being tied to two bent palm trees and torn apart. Yeesh! Talk about a double omega!

  17. In my comfortable place again, I can’t help analyzing word selection… Is a break a halt?
    In TTOTC a grandma makes a pie on her break (pg 43) , and the “old gray-haired lady” on pg 33 sells broken pies 2 for a nickel. Are grandmas and pies a reference to a warm & comfortable place amid the breaks and thickets?

    • Shame its only one entry Dal. I have many fascinating things. Hard to decide what my most favorite is! A lot I buy to sell on but I can never let go.

    • I hope I win, I could really use a brand new car from a Santa Fe dealership of my choice! Thanks Forrest and Dal!

      ……… What, you did say there may be a prize didn’t ya. 🙂

      Pauley T

    • Some great thinking here. After a decade, this dawg-gone hunt is a bit long in the tooth, so it makes a change to have some decent online Chase content to watch.

    • yes, extremely well narrated and well researched. a pleasure to listen to. I “smell” confirmation bias coming… but we all have it.

  18. After the weak chinned Gilbert Stuart painting came the De Hory period…or was it before? Just trying to get timeline perspective while smelling the sunshine.

    • Where I grew up, smelling the sunshine was not pleasant to me… some called it the sweet smell of success – or money… and then would come the time to spread a little of that sunshine out on the fields which exacerbated the problem. 😉
      In all seriousness now though, I do like that we are seeing more sunshine these days and hope it helps with stopping the stupid virus.
      I wish all searchers, plenty of sunshine, good health and safe adventures this summer.

  19. Sometimes we just do not see the Forrest for the BOx Elder Maple family trees, well, like the Maple leaf he stole or found on the White House Lawn on 11/11/1973 Why did ff use this?…https://dalneitzel.com/2019/10/13/scrapbook-two_hundred-thirteen/ … I looked up the date and found this :

    Vietnam War, U.S. involvement (1964–1973)
    Détente (c. 1969–1979)
    Watergate scandal (1972–1974)

    In 2001 Gerald Nicosia authored “Home to War: A History of the Vietnam Veteran’s Movement.”

    “https://www.voanews.com/usa/day-history-last-us-combat-troops-withdraw-vietnam..March 29, 1973. Last American Troops left NAM.

    Or was there something else about this Scrapbook we missed? “For a while now, I’ve been on a history kick, trying to think of ways I can influence the thinking of folks in the future. All sorts of ideas are coming in. One of the best involves plant life.f”

    I think we need to ask Shiloh for insight here.


    • Hmmm… interesting. Makes me think of other scrapbooks… don’t quote me, but one photo in a post involved a large blooming bush (Hydrangea? – can’t remember) and then the weeds with flowers on them that made Forrest comment on what the difference between what constituted a weed and and flower when they both could be beautiful. Or even the trees in his back yard, or other photos from around his home that emphasize his love of nature and wood – (his nature art as well as leaving wood outside to be effected by nature and enhancing natural colors). Herbs and spices in his kitchen drawer (plants)
      Maybe you have something there.

        • Muset, was it not your research in SC BOOK from Chris that allowed us all to find the exact Laos Longitude and Lat?

          GO read the Longitude and call me when you have read SC 106 and the Holy Field may be a hint to the exact spot where these Cross, it is uncanny.


          • Hi Tom,

            It wasn’t really much research. It took about fifteen minutes to find the conversion algorithm online. But then it was really cool to zoom to the spot and see how it looks.

            Even still, the video of finding the plane showed those bluffs as being way more dramatic than they look on Google Earth. Now THAT was some serious adventure.

            I’ll try and read 106. I tried a few times already but strangely I just can’t focus on what is written there, possibly because it never gets to the point. My brain and graces are more like an elephant than a damaged caterpillar, I suppose.

            Good luck and grand adventures this summer.

      • OK, that is what you see, neither of us is an arboriculturist, and it’s not actually that important or necessary to know the tree spices, but what is vital is WHY he saved it and how it relates to WHERE he got it, and even WHEN, that is the point.

        In 211 SCrapbook he struck a box elder maple, in front of Shiloh’s Bunk House, so what reflection/connection might one gleam from a broken mirror ie “Requiem for a Wreck? He mentions the broken mirror again and Me Bobby McGee in SC #219 at the CHILI LINE at Christs Church, Then in SC Book 235 Me and Bobby McGee again, and these are not dreams, they are written by the Oracle himself for all to see.


    • Was wondering if I still had permission to pass through and be a heck of a lot sweeter if someone wanted to ride along just so I don’t take a wrong turn and get stuck !

  20. Regarding Anagrams…
    They’re fun, But I seriously doubt anyone will solve the poem correctly simply with Anagrams. It’s my opinion that Forrest is absolutely clever enough to have built into his poem a few “confirming” anagrams.

    By example. Let’s play a game.
    using “tarry scant”
    as our anagram confirmer

    What BROWN animal or reptile should you tarry scant near when it gives a “scary tant” ?

    As stated, IMO the anagrams won’t solve it, but may offer a confirming hint or warning of danger IF YOU HAVE ALREADY SOLVED TO the correct location.

    “ You will ignore the poem TO YOUR OWN PERIL.”
    Forrest Fenn, on Mysterious Writings


    • I agree that the anagrams help to confirm the clues in the poem. But they are much more clever than just a couple of words within a single line, IMO. I really believe each full line must be used to create 24 anagrams in total.

      The particular line with “tarry scant” produces one of my favorite anagrams in the set. But it is useless unless you know all the anagrams before it (from wwwh) and you must be familiar with the place on the ground near to where it references, I do believe.

      Good luck with your own methodology. I hope we all have a good laugh one day soon with somebody’s correct solve.

    • @copperhead, agree. Basin is the important geographical feature, hence “foot tub“ backwards in poem. One has to determine if you’re looking at a smaller basin of which their are thousands in the Rockies, or if ff is hinting to larger form as in Wyoming’s Great Basin.
      I’m bent towards a smaller bowl shape near a butte. How about you?

  21. I feel like the last couple of seasons, I thought of a good place to do a BOTG search the winter before, and then I sort of sat back waiting for the summer. Then when summer rolled around and my BOTG search came up empty, I couldn’t come up with a new solve that I liked during the search season until right after the first snows rolled in that autumn.

    Now that I am fixated on a new solve area that I’m very excited about for this year, I feel like I should take advantage of the extra time at home now and go back to square one before the START of search season just to try and get a backup solve percolating now so that I can try and be more efficient with BOTG-time within the limited search season during this year.

    Has anyone else been thinking along these lines? I have to admit that I’ve been finding it mentally challenging to set aside one idea you are focused on in order to start fresh again.

    • Blex – That is exactly what I have been doing and because I do like 2 of my possible solves, it is very hard to get past that thinking! Because it means starting form scratch in a new area you are not yet familiar with. But I think it’s the smart thing to do because the likely hood of my solves being correct are probably pretty low. Unlike so many others who seem to have such confidence in a correct solve, I always lean in the opposite direction…..like, what are the chances “I” got this right. LOL! That way I’m less disappointed when reality happens! 🙂

      I will say that what I feel I am honing in on is more the process, my beliefs as to what the clues may mean and how to apply that to an area. Of course I always keep an open mind, but some structure does help when planning a new start. It helps me look at an area with that process in mind. I’ve always felt that many, including my self, may be close to the correct process, but not the correct area, or more importantly, the correct WWWHs.

      So to answer your question, I doubt very much that you are alone in your thinking. And as a matter of fact, I’m glad I have the Chase to keep me occupied. So many of my friends are going stir crazy trying to bide time!

      • Geysergirl – Well said! I very much agree that going on a search with a healthy amount of doubt can help mitigate the likely disappoint. It’s tough to keep that self-doubt balanced against Forrest’s assurance of “moving with confidence” against a stubborn determination that you are absolutely right no matter what. I think all of us are constantly wrestling with managing those expectations to some degree or another. Another way I mitigate against possible failure is making sure that every BOTG trip I make will be a worthwhile one even if I turn up empty on no treasure found; I think a lot of us do that as well. I continue to enjoy having the Chase as a fun way to pass the time, and glad it’s still going strong!

        • I suggest everyone bounce their solve off of their smartest
          trusted friend/relative. Sometimes it’s hard for an individual to see their own mistakes. As always, IMO.

          • Seems as tho I have heard that bit of advice several times before. Should we be listening to others? Considering their opinions? Kinda like an author’s proof-reader before his book gets published. What if tho….you bounce your ideas off someone and they sidetrack you into changing course when actually your course was right on?

          • wwwamericana, my niece suggested that Forrest hid the treasure chest under a Brown banana. Probably not the type of thing we would want to bounce off of our friends for fear of getting committed. The kids got a laugh though.

    • yes one needs to absolutely crush every single answer to any clue that they have come up with. if one is not asking “what was I thinking” when going through the answers, then they are doing something wrong… obvious in retrospect, but hard to do before hand…

      i’ve got to a point where after a few days I have to review wwwh’s for a different state, trying to find why I can’t come up with another wwwh that fits better. just to keep from going into total confirmation bias mode.

      • Writis – Agreed! There’s nothing wrong with some quality assurance! Stepping back from your solves for a while and then coming back to review them with a critical eye is extremely helpful in giving yourself some amount of a confidence boost.

    • Blex,

      You are definitely not alone in your thoughts, though admittedly I cannot relate personally. I have the fortunate advantage of not planning for BOTG and os I do not have to pick one location over another. I very much have the advantage of examining any possible location in terms of the Chase, because without having to pick one definitively, any and all are open possibilities.

      I do happen to find some places more interesting than others for various reasons here and there. But I do not really have any reason to lean one way or another or solve bias leading me to sway others in their own thinking. I liken it to maybe being in the position of a referee as opposed to one of the players or the speaker in Parliament over in Britain. And not in a moderator sort of role, but more of a neutral mentality like the Swiss!

      I try to encourage everyone to explore all the possibilities. While it is great to be confident in one solve, what’s the harm in exploring another in the case that that one solve is not correct, as so many have proved to be in years past? Back up plans are always a great idea unless and until you have the chest in hand!

      All IMO.


  22. IT”S A SCAM!!!

    A website listed as http://www.academia.edu is trying to scam searchers out of their email info, contacts and credit card info by advertising a free .PDF copy of TTOTC.

    First they offer the book for free with a “Free Download” button but if you click on that button it takes you to a page where they want you to sign in with your gmail or facebook info…

    After you’ve done that they want you to sign up for an offer for cheap magazine subscriptions…
    That’s where they get your credit card info…

    After that they provide another link to download the book but if you click on it you get an error message…

    So…it’s all a scam to get valuable private info from you. Do not play with them. Do not even go there…

    Here is a description of TTOTC from their website:

    The Thrill of the Chase by by Forrest Fenn
    This The Thrill of the Chase book is not really ordinary book, you have it then the world is in your hands. The benefit you get by reading this book is actually information inside this reserve incredible fresh, you will get information which is getting deeper an individual read a lot of information you will get. This kind of The Thrill of the Chase without we recognize teach the one who looking at it become critical in imagining and analyzing. Don’t be worry The Thrill of the Chase can bring any time you are and not make your tote space or bookshelves’ grow to be full because you can have it inside your lovely laptop even cell phone. This The Thrill of the Chase having great arrangement in word and layout, so you will not really feel uninterested in reading.

    • Thanks for sharing this, dal!

      I’ve been reading a lot of articles lately that new scammers are entering the field to take advantage of people at their most vulnerable during this whole COVID-19 situation. There are new scam emails and websites popping up that don’t look like the usual ones we are used to seeing. I just read an article yesterday about scammers going back to using snail-mail scam techniques again! I sometimes can’t believe the scumbaggery that certain humans can stoop to.

      • One small silver lining in this worldwide situation is our
        telemarketing calls (from “Kevin” etc. in India) have stopped!
        Anyone else notice this?

      • LOL! That’s exactly what I was thinking! The “interesting” use of the English language is almost always a dead give away pointing to a red flag!

        Thanks Dal!

      • Nah, just good old American grifters. We’ve always had a bountiful load of them since we have an abundance of suckers ready for milking….. From Elmer Gantry to P.T.Barnum to….. well, I’d get bounced into moderation if I mentioned any current names.

        • “Reserve incredible fresh” is an anagram for “feverish Berliner’s creed” Now it all comes together if Fenn part German! All IMO and LOL of course.

    • I’m a sucker for those emails that are written by someone for whom English is the language they’re planning on learning next.

    • Is there a job for investigating, shooting, and/or locking up people like these ?

    • “… having great arrangement in word and layout, so you will not really feel uninterested in reading.”

      Ain’t that the truth 🙂

    • Dal,

      Maybe you should start a separate Discussion Thread entitled “Scams” where you can share all this info in one place? Would be useful and more easily found.

      Just an idea.

  23. Kindest Sir,
    I find your helpful writings to be most needed in this times. I will be gladdest to hear more of your ideas on these topics. Keep the good works present.
    Yours, dutifully.

    • P.S. I have recently come into a very large sum of money in form of gold coins and priceless antiquities. It is with sadness I must share I have no access from my country to this magnificent windfall. I seek a partner who helps me with conversion of these bountiful assets. They will be rewarded handsomely. Please contact me with much speed to discuss our most beneficial relationship.
      Peace be upon you.

    • That’s not right. Poem and map will take you where an 80 year old can go for the price of fuel!!

    • Well that site is at least entertaining as a comedy piece. The “FAQ’s” are particularly silly.

    • I’ll trade two rolls of T-paper and a can of Lysol for the location of the chest…
      Think they’ll bite?

      • Never thought I’d see the day when I’d have an empty t-paper hook. Sure makes a person contemplate the end of the human race.

        By the way, thanks for letting me know I’m not alone!

    • Scams everywhere. Even in our minds.
      I scammed myself by thinking my solve(s) were the “correct solve(s)”.
      Of course, they were too good to be true just like a scam and everyone else’s solve(s) !
      Don’t get scammed by anyone or yourself.

      • Don’t be too hard on your search partner (self). My uncle who’s not my uncle told me “raise your hopes to heaven, and keep your boots on the ground”. I get it backwards sometimes.

    • Thanks for link, Dal.
      It was fun for me to read these fairy tales about founded and again hidden treasure 🙂
      It is even more fun than reading numerous stories of so-called “time travellers”. BTW, do you know simplest way to reveal false time-travellers? Just ask them about closest astronomical events like supernova explosion (in our galaxy or outside). Nobody can predict such events and because of giant distance many of these events already happened (light needs hundreds or even thousand years to reach us). For example, if such time-travellers said that we will see Betelgeuse explosion in May 2021 and this event really happened who will not believe that this guy is not real time-traveller?
      Question is how to reveal false TC finders?
      Besides gold and diamonds TC contains Forrest bio. This text definitely contains some unknown facts from Forrest life that were never published and only Forrest know them. These guys can publish a couple of such facts and ask Forrest to prove them.
      I am sure that these guys just copy/paste an idea of so-called “Nigerian letters” or “Nigerian scams”. Problem is that these guys ask $2M for just location information. Searchers are mostly not rich people and we know from Forrest that rich people very rarely participate in the search (so-called “200 feet searcher” according to Forrest didn’t need money but did BOTG just for fun).
      IMO, but main goal of this scam is to suppress motivation for future BOTG in searcher community. If TC already founded and extracted from original location who will plan and do BOTG?
      One more thing: these guy who created this website are scammers and you Dal can contact with FBI and get them arrested for scam. They are stupid if think that website info is problem for FBI. Dal, you can file a lawsuit against website owner(s) for misleading of searchers, scam and attempt to stole money from potential buyers of TC location information.

      • Just sent them one test question and wait for answer:
        “TC contains: “hundreds of placer nuggets, two nuggets weigh more than a troy pound each, hundreds and hundreds of gold nuggets, some as large as chicken eggs, they weighed 1.2 troy pounds each”
        Finder(s) should know exact weight of biggest nugget in TC. Can you say just this number (in grams or ounce) on your website? Only Forrest knows it.
        If you publish this number on your website and Forrest admit that it is correct number everybody will believe that TC was in your hands. The publication of this number will not reveal any information about you or TC location. If you not publish it it means that you are liars.”

        I know that most likely they will just ignore my question. But this question was safest for them to prove that they found TC and opened it. It is so easy to weigh the biggest gold nugget in TC and publish this. Forrest definitely keeps precise record of TC content including exact weight of biggest nugget. He is honest guy and if these guys are real finders and publish correct weight Forrest will say it.

        • well, at least this site is active and they answer questions:

          April 13, 2020

          Q. Only the finder(s) should know the weight of the biggest nugget in the treasure chest. Could you give that number as only Forrest knows it to verify your claim?

          A. Thank you for your input Andy in order to try to resolve the issue of proof. To be honest we don’t know if Forrest Fenn ever made a note of the weight of individual items. Unfortunately even if he did that won’t help either. As we explained earlier for legal reasons we require plausible deniability. The only reason to publish the weight of the nugget would be so Forrest Fenn could verify our claim publicly. That would not help with deniability. Also do we believe that it would be possible to figure out the weight of the nugget comparing coin size with nugget size. We have no knowlege of all relevant pictures published online and therefore we don’t think this method would be convincing beyond reasonable doubt. It would be much easier to just tell Forrest Fenn privately the location where we found the treasure or present a solve to the poem. Nobody knows that except those who made it to the location. It has been a while since August 2019 and there might have been others which actually means that you might have discovered a flaw in the theory that knowing the location means having the treasure. Your suggestion is therefore worth mentioning as it discovers that the issue is more complicated than most searchers initially assumed.”

          Their answer is very elusive and inconcrete. Everybody who bought big gold nugget (Forrest most likely bought it on auction) knows its weight. Actually my question to this guys was a “hook” because of this:
          Forrest comment about nuggets was:
          “Here are a few of the hundreds of nuggets that are part of the treasure. After this photo was taken I was able to acquire many larger ones. The big one in the top right weighs 1.2 troy pounds. Gold speaks a universal language that everyone can understand.”
          Thus, there are no doubts that Forrest knows exact weight of biggest nugget in his collection. In this comment he said a weight of just one nugget (big one in the top right). On this photo one nugget has blue inclusions (big one in the top left). I am sure that Forrest knows exact weight of “blue decorated nugget”.
          These guys insinuate “that it would be possible to figure out the weight of the nugget comparing coin size with nugget size”. But it’s nonsense because nuggets are nor pure gold i.e. they have different density. It’s just impossibly to figure out even approximate weight of gold nugget based on photo. Finder can easy weight it and publish the number (for example 447.8 g = 1.2 troy pounds). Forrest most likely keeps records and still has certificate for biggest nuggets in his collection.
          Dal, can you ask Forrest about this information?

  24. I dunno. But I read about it. It’s another “yawner” to me. What wouldn’t
    cause me to yawn would be a nice article about how to fix stupid. IMO.

  25. IMO, one of the bells is key to partially unlocking the puzzle. It, IMO, gives us one of the pieces of the jigsaw.

    Master Fenn is a perfectionist for sure, would imagine ALL the bells will actually be in play. Before I begin work on these I was wondering if any of you wise guys had any idea if they were all part of the same jigsaw piece or in fact all separate keys, unlocking other channels?

  26. SMH…baffles me. I read about certain things and can follow along for the most part, but, man, these blue highlighted links that lead you into crazy GE-GE-GENIUS territory is amazing. How on earth do you people communicate with us mere mortals?

    The end is ever drawing nigh? It’s never ending! LOL! We’z getting re-educated! And HOMIE-SCHOOLED! It’s kinda fun to read just because it’s not a rabbit hole, it’s simple amazement!

    Zap(and others), where ever you are, thanks for stopping in every now and then on Terrafirma, cuz you guys are outa this world! You people amaze me. SMH.


    • Calm down ByGeorge, or you might spill your Primordial soup! That might just be a little too messy!

        • I recently looked in the mirror noticed the sparcity of landscape upstairs. It appears my hares have bolted, which I thought was a little tight, so I loosened the nut slightly. They are still around making sparadict noise.

          These little black tips do love to box…….especially Mad-March.

  27. – Forrest Fenn treasure customer service, how may I help you?
    – Thank you I’d like to place a complaint
    – Let me transfer you to the complaint department, thank you for choosing the chase and not being a biddie
    *elevator music*
    – hello? You’ve reached the complaint department.

    Does anyone know how many legs does a lead dog have if you call its tail a leg?
    Thank you and have a day.

    • Indy,

      OMG… Absolutely HILARIOUS!!! Wow.

      “Tune in tomorrow….same Bat-time, same Bat-channel!”

      Thanks for the laugh.


    • Wait a minute for me to catch up, there’s a chase complaint department? How’s ya find the number, is it in anagrams form? How long is it open?

    • There are a couple written by me in the early #SB. They say “by dal” or “dal” on them. The ones by Forrest all have his sig at the end “f”
      It should be clear which ones I wrote and which ones Forrest wrote…

      • Dal,

        Thanks. I asked because of SB 64. I forget now what led me there. Okay I just remembered. I was looking into Los Alamos. Found it odd that the SB appears to have been written by FFs son? Is this correct? Or am I to take it that FF wrote the SB? I don’t see his signature and I don’t suppose you are the one who wrote it.

        It’s curious because I was wondering if FF had any connect to the national laboratory. Why would his son be attending school in Los Alamos f they live in Santa Fe? Is there an explanation for this? It wasn’t talked about in the comments on that page. Everyone just sort of thought it was a nice story. Any thoughts? Looking forward to further insight.


        • Ann-
          Forrest does not have any sons. Forrest has two daughters. Forrest and Peggy had kids in 1959 and 1960 not the 2000’s.

          SB64 was written by Joseph Archuleta a kid unrelated to Forrest, who lives in Los Alamos.
          That’s the kid that signed the SB at the end and that’s his photo in the SB. He wrote that in an email to Forrest. Forrest liked it and we thought it was better as a SB than as a “Forrest Gets Mail” because it would get more readers that way.

    • You should at least read all the SB’s a few times to expand your rabbit hole experience as most of us do including me.
      My favorite SB is 107.
      What’s yours?

      • Jake,

        I don’t have a good answer to your question at this time as I have only read three of the SBs. I came across this one in a search for looking into FF and the Los Alamos National Laboratory in NM. And, not being familiar with FFs family tree, I wanted to know why his “kid” was attending school in Los Alamos if the family lives in Santa Fe. Struck me as odd and now I know why. Also, I was under the impression that FF wrote the SBs. So also struck me as odd.

        I have a long way to go to read through the rest of them before I can give a reasonable answer to your question. Thanks for asking though!

        All IMO.


  28. A couple of things just crossed my mind about the chase. “If you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure” said by forrest and also him feeling like an architect when he wrote the poem. So each clue must be a type of an architect’s work and geographic in terminology as well. For instance: not far, but too far to walk would be a near run and a long run. 2 runs can also be the parts of a stream or length of a waterfalls distance down. So from the beginning to canyon down finding the right canyon with 2 runs should be easy to find. IMO

    • John edo

      So HOB could be a reference not to a building (house/home) but something that could have an architectural connotation that would involve the word or description of Brown?

      And with that line of thought… WWWH would be a “sink” or “basin” or…?”

  29. Copper Dan in association with Jenny at Mysterious Writings are running a contest that will give away, completely free, a Copper Dan original …
    Copper Dan’s art is beautiful and this is a unique opportunity to own one at no cost..
    So head over to Jenny’s site…figure out the puzzle and enter the contest…it’s free!!


  30. Dal,

    So is the kid mistaken when he says

    “I chose Forrest Fenn my dad and I got his book The Thrill of the Chase a couple of years ago and got very excited about the buried treasure. ” (SB64)

    Taken at face value, this is rather deceptive, not that it was done on purpose. But clearly you can see how someone, myself included, may be misled without knowing much about FF and his offspring. I thank you for clarifying why it was placed amongst the SB’s and who the author was.


    • Ann-
      He’s a school kid. He had an assignment to research someone in NM. He chose Forrest (with) his dad. They read the book together…

      • Dal,

        Ah okay. The “with” helps immensely. If only FFs subtle hints were as easy! One word can make all the difference! Thanks Dal.


    • Ann, sometimes a comma in the correct place makes all the sense in the world, not because of some rule book, but because it simply needs to be.

      • Writis,

        And the absence of a comma altogether can be quite telling as well! And that “needs to be” is usually due to some rule book. 🙂


      • Hi all-
        Happy National Find A Rainbow Day!!!!!!!
        Might we all find the end of a certain rainbow!

  31. It seems refreshing, pleasing to see the spirit of the chase, especially to review these scrapbooks from posts many in the past, all this review reminds’ what the blaze could be in our imaginations since “it” is something you “must have been wise to see and understand, perhaps from your past, or his past, but it would be much more than just important, it must be an imperative surely a sign we find when we are getting smarter all the time.

    After examining all the possibilities in Q and A for “the blaze” a few just stand out, well like the Great Sand Dunes National Park, mentioned in scrapbook 223, a sign looing quickly down from a lost Pilot that he has a final deliverance from being lost in the Rockies, we all know we can see the Great Sandunes on Google Earth, but it only takes a few low hanging clouds to cause a catastrophe when you are flying blind, you must find a sign for each clue IMO, it must be recognizable, and that may be what our pathway need to locate the TC, so when we find those blazes in a metaphorical sense and geographical it is a spiritual sign, and I will reveal one clearly in this line from SC #223 use your imagination to see how warm this is and why these are so revealing to the search… ”

    Out of the photo, there on the close right is where my mom had a pansy garden that she planted and tenderly tended each summer day. She died while sitting in their Airstream motor home just 10’ north of this photo. A tall pine tree guarded her pansies. The flowers are gone now, and so is my dad. It would be kind of like a toast-of-thanks if I could go there next summer and pour warm water on roots of that pine tree. But I don’t even know if it’s still there.f”

    WHERE WARM WATERS HALT has an obvious “Spiritual Connotation”, he used all three words WWW here in the SC #223 now why would we not SEE this as Important? Anyone who still thinks that ff repurposed WWWH to just have us look, willy nilly, for some geothermal vent in an obscure location is not reading poetry in my Opine, they think this is solved using logic, and it may be partially, geographically but the other layer is deeper, more sublime, Spiritual I would go as far as this, each clue probably relates to something other than just geography, when we see how the “Architect” designed this drawing, we may nigh be onto the key, remember, it tolls for thee. Thank You, J.D. for your poetry.

    I think we have an Architectural Design and it resembles a Cathedral in the Mountains.



  32. I don’t know about anything particularly “spiritual” – yet we can’t ignore the possibility.

    One might consider direction and guidance given by parents (now gone) as a blaze (trail guide) of sorts. So did he tie a physical blaze mentioned in the SB (#223) to his parents to let us know what sort of blaze to be looking for?

    Or was he simply reminiscing on important and/or defining events in his life?
    I guess whether spiritual, physical or something tied to his parents – one must see how SB 223 fits their solve and not making the solve fit the SB… and if it fits well it may give clarity to other clues offered in the poem by using the same – or similar – connections. MOO

    • Clearly she didn’t do any research before writing that garbage!! Honestly, I have been a fan of Popular Mechanics for a long time and I’m surprised they would even publish the story.

      I wanted to respond to her but I don’t know that I would be able to convey my point without using choice words!!

    • Dal,
      You are right, this is a poorly ill-informed article written by a lazy reporter. Like many articles these days they are not really investigated, they just past along parts of a story and add their own spin on it. By the time it gets to the laziest of writers it is total garbage. It’s called “Fake News.” Well, I oughta……

      • TF-
        She actually writes that he is a peddler or seller twice…
        1. …named for art and forgery peddler Forrest Fenn…
        2. …lifelong seller of forgeries…

        • Hi, Dal,
          I have been so sorry .

          Someone likes ice cream and swimming,
          After so much eating ice cream, he enters a crazy river at noon.
          And he drown in the water.
          Who or what is responsible now?
          Ice cream?,
          These answers are the sympathetic in childhood.

          But if it is written in the local newspaper like that:

          “Ice cream drowned people in the days when Covid19 was panemic”

          just now, this news has become in itself the main subject which will be just subject of the real news.

          I can’t understand why a newspaper or journalist write the news without investigating possibilities and without knowing it and negatively.

          Oneday it may be also talked about the “right of the people to get impartial and definitive news”.

          My suggestion is to send the articles on the blog to the newspaper in bulk.

          So sad,
          And so disappointing for journalism.

          • I have reworked the message both in grammar and in content.
            Sorry for my hasty translation errors.

            Sending messages in bulk may not be easy and convenient.
            It also requires individual approval first.

            Sometimes it can work to show how society interacts with its internal dynamics.
            Still, the most important thing is individual choice and freedom of behavior.

            Sorry again.
            Ali Kemal

    • I’ve imagined so many times what it would be like to search for the Treasure and enjoying the splendor of the Rocky Mountain territory and afterwords returning home to my family and friends and sharing my wonderful story of adventure and doing so with thought and consideration to my safety first and foremost. And I would have done this safely because that is what I would have CHOSEN to do. We are all responsible for ourselves, we live by the CHOICES we make. When I do go forward to search for the Treasure I will CHOOSE to do so safely and I will CHOOSE to return home safely. Plain and Simple.

      As for the author, I am CHOOSING not to stoop to the level of the author by emailing them with some kind of story that explains why they felt the need to CHOOSE to write such a story blah blah blah.

      I made the CHOICE to write this comment.

      Pauley T

    • Poor Caroline must drive an urban car with tires made of cheese. Cause this nonsense smells like limburger to me.

    • To All,

      I would be interested to hear what FF would have to say about the article. I found it interesting that the poem and map page was used from TTOTC. I imagine some degree of permission had to be obtained in order to use that. And while the article is certainly critical of the Chase, I have to agree with tighterfocus2. FF was not called a forger but a peddler (or seller) of forgeries which FF himself would not claim as false. After all is that not how he got his start?

      I am in no way defending the article. It does not appear to be a historical account of the Chase, but rather a mere spotlight on a most unfortunate and tragic death. I admire the passion with which the Chase community has come to the defense of FF, but what does he have to say about it? Has he taken any offense? Does he feel the article inaccurately identifies a piece of the overall story? What ought the article to have looked like instead in covering this particular story?

      I am no journalist, nor am I FF. There is an old adage that goes something like “any publicity is good publicity.” While I am not convinced that adage is entirely true, and while the article does not shine the best light on the Chase, it does bring to the attention of the public 1) the Chase and 2) the dangers in not heeding calls for safety both by FF over the Chase and public officials over COVID-19.

      While I am not so critical of the article, it is now forever a part of the story of the Chase however it may be viewed. All IMO of course.


      • Hi Ann,

        I agree with you on that. He was not called a ‘forger’ but a forgery peddler, I think FF will not have an issue with that part of the story since other articles have said the same. If I’m not mistaken that was a known fact that he openly sold forgeries at his gallery. What the journalist got wrong was the timing of his illness, and she also injects some doubt into the treasure story which again some others have done as well.

        • But isn’t there a stark difference between forgery and a copy? Doesn’t forgery imply intent to decieve? Lastly what’s the difference, if it isn’t but in the eye of the purchaser and what their perception is?

          • Brian U,

            This may help:


            He did it openly and honestly. So it’s not like anyone can hold it against him.


            Well put. There are certainly errors regarding FFs cancer. Again, it is not a historical account of the Chase. As the title of the article suggests, it was an attempt to report on the recent death. albeit a poor attempt.

            The interjected skepticism is actually more reasonable than the factual errors. As with any unsolved mystery, there will be a degree of skepticism. Give the Chase enough time and it may just become legend and myth to people thousands of years from now! 🙂

            All IMO.


    • I suspect, having participated in the activity myself, that her piece is a product of the gig economy subsection called “article writing”. Somebody responsible for web content needs to constantly feed the beast, and an entire industry has sprung up to satisfy that need. There is a wide range of quality, but as you’ve probably noticed, the trend is downward.
      So don’t blame the writer too much–for all we know she churned out 12 similar pieces and put them up for auction, basically. The blame rests squarely on Popular Mechanics web edition for its acceptance of such tripe.
      In my opinion.

    • And better yet, why not contact Popular Mechanics directly and let the publication know what you think about this article?

      Just go to the “contact us” page and scroll down to “Letters” to submit a letter to the editor. If you do so, please keep it civil and simply appeal to the journalistic integrity of their publication by pointing out the many, many errors in this article that was submitted to them by this particular freelance author who very obviously conducted a minimal amount of information-gathering from sources that were very easy to find online even by a non-professional writer or non-journalist. What does that make you think about the publication as a whole if an article on a topic that you are very familiar with is so clearly nonfactual? Would you trust their expertise on topics that you are not as familiar with?

      And also, please don’t go into the mountains while the snows are still as deep as they are like this. It’s seriously dangerous and can cause death. Thank you.

    • Welcome to the wonderful world of Fake News, both partial and complete fantasies are for sale, this reads like a bad blog comment to TT, if Robert Redford wrote anything like this there would be a LYNCHIN…


    • This obviously is not a treasure hunter, this writer should get out to the mountains sometime, make read a dikshionary.

    • I have always found Popular Mechanics to be a total trash rag for engineer wannabes who couldn’t do well enough in school to get there.

      It’s really for kids and less educated folks who don’t have the ability or plain just don’t want to check the facts. The stories are written by English literature students as a temporary job before getting a real job with a reputable journal or magazine.

      I’m surprised in this digital age that Popular Mechanics still exists, but I suppose there will always be suckers willing to pay for misinformation and advertisers who don’t care who is endorsing their products.

  33. Talk about an uninformed “reporter”.

    Turned my stomach reading all the negativity about Forrest. Not one positive remark. Nothing about Forrest’s service to his country, his bravery, and HONOR! Nothing about Forrest’s environmental or humanitarian efforts. Not 1 good word.

    Granted, accidents happen, and it’s saddening. But when you go looking for trouble, it’s not an accident. At some point you honestly need to stop blaming others for your actions.

    And for what it’s worth, out of these 5 individuals, I’d be willing to wager that every one of them is sitting in Heaven with loved ones saying the same thing…”Please don’t blame Forrest”…I know I would.

    Thank you Mr. Fenn for everything you have done to make this world a better place. God Bless you all.


    • I agree, ByGeorge. Blame has become the crux of society which spirits the world into a disillusion of proper justice.

      Just because the moon is conquerable, can we blame it (the moon) for astronauts who’ve lost their lives trying to achieve it? Do we blame an airplane or its pilot because we’ve decided to step out, having our parachute fail? What about life itself, do we blame our mother for giving birth when misfortune exists upon us as the child?

      No one has forced us to proceed down a certain path, especially when we’ve been given life and a freedom of choice in doing so. Each step is our own and our responsibility, and it is by each that we choose our destiny. If not, we then live in a fairytale world where self-responsibility is never a concern and where blame can always be passed onto any one who happens to be be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

      It makes me wonder about the future of so-called “civilized” man.

      What ever happened to the phrase, “The Buck Stops Here”?

  34. Journalism Code of Ethics:

    Professional journalists share these basic principles
    public account ability

    She has proven to be a journalistic forger and a poor one at that.

      • 42,

        TRUE THAT!!!


        Other than that, I got nothin…


    • A very radical and colourful write up!

      ff is a “megastar” in my book, for many reasons! A man that has been married to the same woman all his life has qualities most of these none believers will ever posses. That is why they turn something positive into negativity. Its just their way of thinking. Well, things will reverse and they will look so silly when the day arrives and the TC is located and presented to the world.

      Someone will pull that rabbit out soon, I can feel it in my bones!

  35. How do you get stuck in snow in a snow machine? Clearly those folks didn’t do the proper planning and didn’t know what the heck they were doing.

    • The “fact” that a snow machine(snow-mobile) was needed should be your first “red flag”.

  36. HA HA,
    Odds that writer has never strayed far
    from NYC..
    Checked my maps, sure didn’t know that
    WY & MT are considered now to be part of the S. W. U. S.
    Obviously never has visited HOD., otherwise she would have known
    tio CYA by inserting IMO

  37. PS,,
    Billings, MT. is about 45.7 deg N lat.
    NYC is about 40.7 deg N lat.
    Sooooo, by this, is NYC part of the
    S. E. U. S.???

    • Yep… the article would be an absolute joke – if it wasn’t for the fact it is a thoughtless, inaccurate and shameful swipe taken at Forrest’s character which make it truly reprehensible. Sadly – MOO – this is all too much the norm these days with many in the media.
      If there isn’t something legitimate to tear someone apart on, they ‘create’ the impression that there is, using outright lies and half truths.
      Making the tragedy of these individuals mistakes, her martyrs, for her own self aggrandizement at the expense of Forrest. Sad, sick world at times…

    • DTakaRS, you caught me off guard for a second with that one. An axe would allow one to see the sky instead.

  38. The petulent child, not getting their desires met, will always claim someone or something else is the problem. Too many don’t out grow that thinking. You’re seeing it now with people not willing to wait in line. These are the ones that have no respect for others, and likely think charity is for suckers. This is the battle line for our souls. Always has been. May the force be with us.

  39. I really didn’t like that Popular Mechanics article that Dal had shared a little further up on this thread, and ended up writing a pretty long letter to the editor of Popular Mechanics this morning about that article. I emailed it to Dal this evening for grins, and he recommended that I share it in the comments here (in spite of its length). So if you feel like reading a big block of text this evening, here you go! 🙂

    To the Editor of Popular Mechanics Magazine and PopularMechanics.com,

    I wanted to write to your publication regarding the article titled “Fifth Person Dies Searching for Rumored Treasure in the Rocky Mountains” dated March 31, 2020 on by Caroline Dilbert. Although the article is brief at only around 2,500 words, I noticed so many factual errors within that short piece that I felt compelled to write to your publication and at least correct some of these mistakes, as well as share a differing opinion. As one who has enjoyed following this treasure hunt for the past several years, I have read many articles on this subject by many different news and media publications, and it is very evident to me that the author of this piece has not read most of them.

    Let me start by listing the straightforward, indisputable factual errors in the order that they are mentioned in the article:

    “Fenn’s treasure, named for art and forgery peddler Forrest Fenn, is supposed to be hidden in the mountains somewhere in the southwestern United States.”

    (and later on in the article)

    “What’s going on here? Five people have been killed searching for something that a lifelong seller of forgeries has only claimed exists?”

    In these sentences, the author calls Forrest Fenn a “forgery peddler” and “lifelong seller of forgeries”. Using the terms “peddler” implies criminal activity, and “lifelong” implies that Forrest Fenn made his entire fortune, or a majority of his fortune, on the selling of forgeries. Neither of these facts are true. Forrest Fenn did deal in forged works of art, however it was exclusively the work of a notorious forger named Elmyr de Hory, who duplicated some of the most famous works of art for years before he was finally caught. Forrest Fenn bought a large collection of Elmyr de Hory’s works and sold them at his gallery clearly advertised as forgeries. In addition, Fenn made purchasers sign an agreement upon purchase stating that they were fully aware that the piece they were purchasing was a forgery by Elmyr de Hory. The vast majority of work that Fenn sold were very authentic pieces by well-known artists around the world, as well as lesser-known artists local to the Santa Fe, NM area who Fenn himself helped to promote. The details of Forrest Fenn’s selling of de Hory’s works are duplicated in numerous publications across the internet that are easy to find, but perhaps the best version is the one that Fenn wrote in his own words on his (now no longer updated) blog site, which I will link below:

    “Michael Wayne Sexson, 58, died after he and a treasure-hunting companion took snowmobiles into the remote Rocky Mountains and got stuck in the snow there.”
    First, the age of the man was 53, not 58. The age 58 was given in early news articles when the deceased man had yet to be identified, but was revised to 53 once his identity was confirmed. Secondly, the deceased and his companion did not get “stuck in the snow” but rather abandoned their snowmobiles due to insufficient depth of the snow. I believe that the author mixed up an earlier event in February when the same two men did get their snowmobiles stuck in snow and had to be rescued. Below is a link to the Denver Post’s story which contains an accurate version of this story:

    “After doctor told him he’d likely die of cancer 10 years ago, the millionaire sold his art gallery and made preparations for both the treasure and the clues to find it. Fenn self-published The Thrill of the Chase in 2010,… ”

    (and later on in the article)

    “Fenn himself would have been nearly 80 and recovering from cancer treatment when he hid the treasure, which suggests he brought someone in to do it for him. ”

    Forrest Fenn’s bout with cancer occurred much earlier than 10 years ago; it was in 1988 when he was diagnosed with cancer and a poor prognosis. Before his unexpected recovery, he first came up with the idea of hiding a treasure chest in a location where he would commit suicide. Although it is true that he was selling his gallery at the time, this was not a result of his cancer diagnosis. The erroneous information about the timing of when Fenn had cancer is important, because it obviously devalues the inference that the author made in the latter part of the second sentence that Fenn must have have someone helping him.

    “Most of the information online about the treasure comes from this website, which prominently repeats instructions about how to treasure hunt “safely.”
    The website linked in this sentence is fennstreasure.com, which is not a popular website related to Fenn’s treasure and only includes a tiny portion of information borrowed from other websites. The fact that the author claims that “most of the information online about the treasure” comes from this website, is the clearest indication to me that a minimal amount of research went into the writing of this article [If I were to hazard a guess based on the information included in this article, the author went to the above-referenced website, the Wikipedia page about Forrest Fenn (even then, the information of which was erroneously regurgitated into this Popular Mechanics article), and the first news article that came up about Michael Wayne Sexson in a Google search].

    Contrary to the author’s statement, there are much more informative websites online where a wealth of accurate and detailed information can be found. To keep the amount of weblinks in this letter brief, I will simply mention the following website as one of the most popular, if not the most popular: https://dalneitzel.com/ My reason for recommending this website in particular is because its creator, Dal Neitzel includes links to pretty much every other website out there that contains information related to Forrest Fenn and his treasure. It is also one of the first websites that comes up in a basic Google Search on the topic, so I do not understand why the author claims that the fennstreasure.com site is where most of the information online about the subject comes from.

    The points that I have raised so far in this letter are what I believe to be clear factual errors that can be clearly demonstrated as such without argument. I have cited only a few exemplary sources above, however these are only a small amount of the information readily available online that is complimentary to the information contained in the sources that I have cited.

    I would now like to go back and further address the subjective content of the article, which I freely submit as merely an alternate perspective to the opinions presented by the author of your article.

    I want to start by listing the general points that I believe that the author is trying to make in this article:

    1. That the character of Forrest Fenn, and therefore his honesty, is questionable.
    2. That the hidden treasure chest is a hoax and may not exist.
    3. That Forrest Fenn is responsible for the deaths of those who have died while searching for the hidden treasure.
    4. That Forrest Fenn should call an end to the treasure hunt (or the “Chase”, as most enthusiasts call it).

    I will grant that the writer of this article may believe that they are not overtly making these points, but rather are simply putting forth these ideas as questions. Whether or not these ideas are being included in your article as questions, or hard opinions on the part of the author, I believe I can respond to them in a way that demonstrates that these questions are NOT “hard to answer” as the author wrote.

    Let’s start with that first idea questioning the honesty of the man who started the Chase, Forrest Fenn. I will admit that there is absolutely no way for one to definitively prove whether or not Forrest Fenn is lying or telling the truth about hiding his treasure chest without actually finding the treasure itself. The question of Forrest Fenn’s character then comes into some importance. As I have never met the man in person, I cannot speak to his character, however I have read many accounts of his close friends and other searchers who have met with the man. There are plenty of audio and video clips available online of the man talking both formally and casually about the Chase and his life in general. These accounts cause me to believe that the man seems to be at least honest about the treasure. One particular account I recall offhand was from the author Douglas Preston, a close friend of Fenn, who very clearly shared his opinion of Fenn’s honesty in an interview done for National Public Radio in 2016. I will include the excerpt and the link to the original story below:

    ‘Doug Preston is a best-selling author and a longtime friend of Fenn’s. He says he saw the chest in the walk-in vault in Fenn’s house before he hid it, and Preston can attest that it was filled with gold nuggets, gold coins, pre-Columbian gold figures, rubies, sapphires, emeralds and diamonds.”As far as proof goes [that he hid the treasure] there’s no proof,” Preston says. He also lives in Santa Fe. “It’s hard to prove a negative. The negative is that the chest is gone. It’s not in his house and it’s not in his vault. And also knowing Forrest for as long as I have, I can absolutely say with 100 percent confidence that he would never pull off a hoax. I’m absolutely sure that he hid that treasure chest.”

    Secondhand accounts of a person can only get one so far in judging their character. So I’d also like to bring up Forrest Fenn’s motivation. What would be the man’s motivation for hiding the treasure chest, and for lying about hiding a treasure chest?

    Let’s start with the motivation for lying about hiding the treasure chest, because I believe that is the position that the author of your article wishes to take. If Forrest Fenn is lying about the treasure chest, then he is a person who experiences pleasure at deceiving others. He is a puppet-master who enjoys seeing people run around looking for something that isn’t there. He is a trickster or the equivalent of a modern-day internet-troll to the highest degree. He cares nothing for others and enjoys “seeing the world burn” in a sense to perhaps feed his own ego and thus set himself above others. He’s an old man who doesn’t have many years left in his life, so why not play one last practical joke before he passes on; the greatest practical joke ever created!

    The author uses the intentionally misleading text of calling him a peddler of forgeries in an effort to paint the picture of a dishonest man that I have described above, which I have already written about as being factually untrue. What other points does the author make to discredit the man’s character? Beyond this, the author cites a frivolous lawsuit that a delusional searcher (“someone”) made with no chance of winning (one of many actually), and the fact that “Dumping some kinds of things is all the way illegal” in National Parks, a convenient link to the National Park Service’s website (a National Park may or may not be the location of the treasure’s hiding place. These other points are tenuous at best in defining Forrest Fenn as a liar and a cheat. A frivolous lawsuit and a minor crime against illegal dumping (which generally is against invasive organic waste and not small metal treasure chests, per the NPS link) do not convince me much in regards to the author’s argument.

    So could Forrest Fenn be a lying trickster? The possibility exists, however I do not believe that there is strong evidence supporting this.

    Let me go over to the other side of this question: If Forrest Fenn was not lying, then what would be his motivation for creating this treasure hunt? Some have opined that his motivation comes from a desire for fame or renown, whether it be establishing a place for himself in the history books to create some sense of earthly permanence, or to simply satisfy himself that he made his mark on this world. This could be true, however the man had achieved a certain degree of fame (especially in the art world) before he ever started the Chase. He rubbed elbows with the rich and famous and, in my opinion, had more incredible life experiences than anyone could hope for. When I first became interested in the Chase, I believed that fame must have been Forrest’s motivation for hiding his treasure chest, but my opinion has changed on this over time and I will try to explain my present belief here.

    I saw a good quote posted on social media recently by the author Alex Haley: “Every time an old person dies, it’s like a library burning down.” I believe that this may be at the heart of Forrest Fenn’s motivation for hiding the treasure chest. The more one reads Forrest’s books and blog posts, I believe the more one can understand the spirit of the Chase. Forrest’s life is a pretty incredible story in which many important life lessons were learned by him, which he shares eloquently in his writings. I think that he understands towards the end of his life how much of a shame it is to have all of those life lessons be lost forever upon his death. He speaks frequently of the sense of wonder that he has in archaeological finds: an arrowhead from an ancient hunter, a threshold stone of a house worn by human feet, a discarded button from a soldier’s uniform found in a field, etc. I think that Forrest Fenn very clearly experiences a sense of the profound when he comes into contact and can touch ancient artifacts like these. I think that while he wonders about the original owners of these items and what their thoughts may have been during their life, at the same time he laments the fact that whatever these thoughts were, that they are now lost to the ages and only these relics remain. I believe that he sees himself reflected in these items and by creating the Chase, he can perhaps call attention to the valuable life lessons that he has learned and hopefully preserve at least a small portion of them for future ages. This is all just my opinion as it has evolved over the years, but I do feel is a recurring theme in many of his own writings.

    So anyway, Forrest Fenn has said that he came up with the idea for the Chase when he first got cancer and thought he was going to die. His original plan was to head into the Rocky Mountains and commit suicide, but first to leave a poem behind that would lead a lucky searcher to his final resting site and the treasure chest that he took with him. In short, the Chase was created as a dying man’s legacy; a final hurrah to help him go out with a bang and pass on into legend. The treasure is the cost of having the general public care about the dying man and what he had to say in his final hours. More people do wander off into the wilderness to commit suicide than I would care to know the exact numbers on, but if one of those people happened to have a valuable treasure with him? Many would pay special attention to that particular dying person and what they have to say, if nothing else then for a clue as to where the treasure may be hidden. The Chase seems to me to be, above all other things, the legacy of Forest Fenn.
    So why would a person sabotage their life’s legacy on creating a joke, a hoax, a lie? Even for the biggest sociopath in the world, it still seems like a hard thing to believe. Yes, the possibility of this still remains, but speaking from personal experience, the more one reads of what the man has written, the more easily one can dismiss the idea that the entire Chase is a trick. If it is a trick, Fenn has spent a titantic amount of effort to create so much misleading evidence. I believe the man to generally be good and of honest character, and firmly do not believe the treasure to be a hoax.

    Now let’s move on to the topic of the five searchers who have died in the search of the Chase, and the question of whether Forrest Fenn should call an end to the Chase. Forrest has responded numerous times related to these topics and are easy to find online with a quick internet search, and I would prefer that the author reads/views these firsthand.

    The author of this article is expressing outrage (or the desire to stir up the outrage of readers) over the notion that people have died in the wilderness looking for treasure in the following lines:

    “What’s going on here? Five people have been killed searching for something that a lifelong seller of forgeries has only claimed exists? And because of where these people choose to search, they’re in pretty dangerous places with little access to good emergency resources—let alone when the country is in public health lockdown.”

    “Most of the information online about the treasure comes from this website, which prominently repeats instructions about how to treasure hunt “safely.” (That seems like an understatement after five people have died.)”

    As I have already pointed out earlier, both of these passages contain factually-wrong information, but when seen how this wrong information is used in the context of the full sentences to propel the writer into a state of outrage and drive their point home, the effect seems to be doubly egregious.

    I feel that the outrage on the author’s part is coming from the position of one who has not only rarely experienced going into wilderness areas on their own, but has not been made aware of the thousands of other people who do, and the very real dangers inherent with visiting wilderness areas for any purpose, treasure-hunting or otherwise. The excerpts above written by the author seem to be making an argument against anyone going out into wilderness areas. Wilderness areas are inherently by their nature dangerous by being isolated from “good emergency resources”. This is why most people who go into the wilderness bring safety gear with them. To me, this seems obvious on the most basic levels of outdoor recreation, and I am doubly confused why I am reading an article with such an apparent ignorance of this in “Popular Mechanics” of all publications?

    To set the record straight, Forrest Fenn had been proactive in giving very important and accurate safety information before any Chase-related deaths occurred. And it was not any new information; it is the same information posted at every wilderness area be it National Park, State Park, National Forest, Wilderness Area, etc. The people who have died ignored this information, just as people who die simply while hiking ignore important information. To say that Forrest Fenn is responsible for the deaths of these people is similar to saying that the National Park System is responsible for allowing people within their boundaries. It is a ridiculous argument.

    Furthermore, Forrest Fenn has provided even more information specific to the Chase on top of the typical common safety information for wilderness travel. He has said that the treasure is hidden in a safe spot that he would be comfortable bringing small children to. He has reminded people that he was 80 years old when he hid the treasure and to not travel where an 80-year-old man could not go. He has given a ton of additional specific information clearly intended to keep people away from dangerous areas and the people who have died have blatantly ignored that information. These people did not listen to Forrest Fenn’s stressed advice, did not act safely, made poor decisions, and caused their own deaths.

    The most recent person who died highlighted in this article was just rescued in February of this year, and almost immediately afterwards went right back out into the snowy, unforgiving mountains having learned from his previous experience, and died. If this man cannot be held responsible for his own death due to unbelievably poor decision-making, then I do not know who can. Certainly not Forrest Fenn.

    I want to close this letter by mentioning something important that was omitted in this article, and I can only guess completely escaped the notice of the article’s author during their very brief period of research. This Chase that Forrest Fenn has created has had an overwhelmingly positive effect on the lives of so many people who have been captured by the imagination of going on a treasure hunt. There are countless stories of families who have bonded over the Thrill of the Chase, in puzzling over maps and the Poem at home, and then heading out to the Rocky Mountains to test their theories and end up enjoying the trip just for its own sake. I know that earlier I had mentioned my opinion that the Chase was a personal legacy of Forrest Fenn, however another one of Forrest’s goals of the Chase was to inspire people to get out of their homes and away from their computers to enjoy fresh air and the splendor of the Rocky Mountains. He has accomplished this goal many thousands of times over with people who are grateful for him having done it and enriching their lives. Modern-day adventures like this are such a rare inspirational thing that should be recognized and appreciated, and I am so glad that this one exists to capture my imagination. All of this was completely missed by the author, and I am sorry for that.

    I wish to submit this letter anonymously, and I realize that I ended up writing a much longer letter than I originally sat down to write. If you wish to publish or post this in whole or in part, please do, with the exception of including my email address. I have read many poorly written articles about the Chase online and in publications, however this article ranks dead last as the worst one I’ve ever read. This article seems to be written in the format of an angry, ignorant Facebook post rather than a news article. This is a professional contributor to your publication?

    I hope that this letter at least provides a counterpoint for consideration, and helps to balance out what I feel to be an extremely ignorant and negative piece of writing.

    Thank you for your consideration,
    A grateful Chaser

    • Blex;

      What a beautifully crafted response to a poorly crafted article that should have never been published – Thanks for sending it to the magazine (I won’t even mention their name) and thanks for posting it here – JDA

    • Blex.
      A very noble and thoughtful attempted to clear up the misinformed, for there are many I’m sure.
      It is sad that there are those in life that cannot except the success and achievements of others. They will rarely be able to go beyond those shallow thoughts for they have already decided how far they will climb.
      They will continue running down those in the attempt to feel better about who they are.
      Just my opinion that this could be the case.
      Or a disgruntled searcher. No matter, if there’s a mansion built there’s always one to tear it down.
      I hope you made a difference,

    • Hi Blex: I applaud your efforts, though I fear they will fall on deaf ears at the magazine. I have not read the article, and upon reading your response to it I have no great desire to do so. Even so, it would not surprise me if Forrest isn’t a little amused by the (shall we say) weakly-researched article. (“Hit piece” sounds overly harsh.) After all, sometimes there is no such thing as bad publicity.

      A final correction at the risk of repetition: 6 souls, not 5, have unfortunately and unnecessarily perished in pursuit of the treasure (that we know about). With so many people searching for so many years, some accidents (even automobile accidents) are unfortunately inevitable. But there is also no way to know how many lives have been saved or extended thanks to Forrest’s challenge, nor a count of the relationships made or mended.

      • Zaphod – Thank you, and I won’t be surprised at all if it falls on deaf ears at the magazine. I looked into the author’s stable of contributions, and I believe that she has built a career out of writing click-bait style articles that include keywords intentionally-selected to show up high on search engine results. The content of the articles themselves are almost an afterthought.

        On the one hand, I’d encourage you to read the original article itself to experience this low point of journalism firsthand (it only takes about 30 seconds to read), but on the other it would give an extra “click” to the website. I’m fine with either. The excerpts I included in my letter comprise about half of the article’s content already.

    • Blex,

      I just wrote cdelbert. I copied/pasted my post from above and went bit further, politely explaining.

      I invited her(?) to stop into this blog dalneitzel.com to view the discussion/comments as well leaving a reply/comment for us all.

      Just a simple explanation of her thought process would be nice to know, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING???

      Hopefully we will see an explanation on this.
      Stay safe y’all and good luck!


      • Thanks, ByGeorge. At best, I am willing to believe that the author wrote the article with the motivation to get a story written quickly to meet a deadline, so if she is open-minded and willing to learn more about what the Chase is all about, then that would be good on her.

    • A guy throws a suitcase into a water inlet infested with salt water crocodiles and it sinks. He tells a group of onlookers there is £1m of cash in there, but not to go looking until the tide goes out. Angry snappers are circling for all to see. 2 of the group decide to jump in immediately, knowing they might be eaten alive and yes, they meet their fate. The rest decide to wait for the tide to recede.

      Who is to blame for the loss of life? The thrower or the jumpers?

      The fact the rest waited for the tide to recede tells us it is not the throwers fault.

      • BigOnus,

        Reminds me of a joke…

        A billionaire throws a party. In order to keep his guests from jumping in the pool, he has hungry Gaters dropped into the pool.
        During the party the host stands up and announces to his guests that he will give anyone whatever they want if they can swim the length of the pool
        Out of nowhere there’s a SPLASH! Everyone watches in horror as the man frantically swims the distance and springs to safety!
        The host rushes to his side and exclaims “YOU ARE THE BRAVEST MAN I HAVE EVER SEEN! What you want? A million dollars? An island? Just name it and it’s YOURS!!
        The man looks at the billionaire and says “I WANT THAT SON-OF-A-BLEEP THAT PUSHED ME IN!!!”

        I got nothin…


      • I don’t think you can penetrate a too-thick skull (and that’s the polite way of describing someone) with logical reason.

        Since you asked, (and just to “play devil’s advocate”) I could claim that the rest waited because they didn’t seriously want to be victorious. No risk, no reward, don’tcha know. And using this same approach, I could
        state the following fact, while inviting anyone to dispute it: If the automobile had never been invented, there wouldn’t annually be tens of thousands of lives ended early — as a result of injuries sustained in
        automobile crashes.

        Seriously, I don’t hold Fenn responsible to any degree for any deaths of searchers for his treasure. ‘Nuff said for now.

        • Risk/reward might not be right here. Had they waited for the tide to withdraw they might also have also seen they were swimming in the wrong place, so all the risk in the world might never bring reward. In my mind I see greed and stupidity.

        • BigOnus n TF2,

          Might I ad this…
          Who would believe the guy in the first place?
          Who throws cash into water? Nobody sensible.
          Greed makes ya jump in. Heck, stupid is a relative term so that’s a possibility as well.

          Now here’s the way I see it…if the suitcase had indulgence secreted inside it then it wouldn’t have sank!
          Because HOPE FLOATS!! 🙂


      • BigOnus – I agree, but I don’t think that your analogy about throwing the suitcase into an area filled with crocodiles even compares to Forrest’s Chase. The guy in your story has knowingly thrown the suitcase of money into an obviously dangerous location and Forrest has said time and again that he has not done anything of sort and that the location is in a place where one does not need to put themselves in danger. But I totally get the point that you were making.

    • Very nicely written, Blex. That was a LOT of work on your part. And I hope Forrest reads your letter.

      The dubious article speaks volumes about “Popular Mechanics” as a publication. They’re either desperate for articles, or their management staff is incompetent, or both.


      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • It used to be a pretty good mag, decades ago. But they seem to have
        gotten into subjects that hardly relate to mechanics at all. It wouldn’t
        surprise me if they publish articles these days about “confused individuals”.

      • Thanks, Ken. If Forrest does read that article, then I do hope he reads my letter as well. I’d prefer he doesn’t read either though, and just keeps doing what he’s doing.

    • Blex – WOW! I think we need to title this “My War for Fenn.” LOL! Nicely done! I wrote a letter to the editor as well, only shorter….OK, much shorter 😉 and not nearly as well as you! Kudos for caring enough to take the time to do that. If the editor of Popular Mechanics has any ethics and decency, he will respond in one fashion or another. Let’s hope he at least considers correcting the misinformation about Mr. Fenn.

    • Hi, Blex,

      It was impossible not to rebel against this irrational article, underestimating the whole family of chase and the university living in it.

      Your article has been a detailed and beautiful .

      At the end of the post, I perceived “a grateful chaser” as “tens of thousands of grateful chasers “.

      Health to your hand and mind.
      Ali Kemal

    • Blex… What a wonderful letter. How do you write so articulately and cool with steam coming out of your ears? Thank you for righting a wrong, and for a lesson in writing.

      • Thank you, OS2. I will admit that I needed to delete a few sentences that I had written along the way to keep it civil! 😉

    • I enjoyed your letter, Blex. I hope Popular Mechanics will share your response in publication.

      • Thank you, Pdenver! I hope that you and your family are staying warm and healthy up in Denver-land during the quarantine! 🙂

  40. Blex,

    From start to finish, well done. It looks longer on my phone but it wasn’t. I could have read more from you.

    Nice approach. Your pro’s and con’s were politely expressed and well covered with links and facts. I did not know there was February incident as well.

    Very unfortunate and preventable to say the least.


    • ByGeorge – Thanks, I agree. This recent death was unfortunate, but incredibly foolhardy. Even thought the dangers of deadly Winter exposure are obvious, Forrest has also stressed time and time again not to go into the mountains until well after the snows melt. If anything, I hope this serves as a wake-up call to any others who may have still been considering an off-season search.

  41. Good Job Blex! I almost feel sorry for the author, maybe she’s a newbie and this was her first gig, working from home trying to make ends meet. Who knows, hope she doesn’t get fired and decides to join some searchers and write a good article about the Thrill.

    • Cholly – Thank you, and I respect your desire to empathize with the author. I believe that the author is a freelancer who writes for many different publications/websites. If she does decide to acknowledge her mistake and learn more about the subject herself, that would be great!

    • Cholly – You make a good point. I don’t think anyone wants to see the author fired, just made aware of the fact that she has made some incorrect statements and that hopefully they will be corrected. Everyone makes mistakes, but IMO, if you want to be considered as a professional journalist, I think it’s pretty important to get facts right.

      • Someone once said that the ultimate misery of a dishonest person isn’t that they would be found out, it is a life spent deciding everyone they meet (or write about) must be dishonest.

        well if someone didn’t say it, I just did.

  42. Every day in my email in box I get a free Word of the day sent to me, for personal edification from Merriam Webster,

    Today that word was “maverick” it seems odd to me that the last sentence said this: “Maverick eventually recognized the folly of the situation and sold what was left of his depleted herd, but not before his name became synonymous with such unbranded livestock. By the end of the 19th century, the term maverick was being used to refer to individuals who prefer to blaze their own trails.” Does anybody remember the way ff describes the “lead dog” scenario. Do you think he reads stories, especially about Western Themes?

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/word-of-the-day … sign up and see if we are gettin’ smarter all the time. But keep in mind the competition, the command of vocabulary terms reminds TT of Golf, at 73 I can still compete and often beat the 20 year olds, why? I could never compete with the youngers in Football, Baseball, or Basketball but Billards, I am a whiz, golf better than average, so why is it that an 80 year old is runnin circles around us?

    Are kids today smarter? Well this statistic surprised me, but probably not Forrest…The average adult knows 20,000 to 35,000 words. The average 20 year old knows 42,000 words and phrases (known as lemmas— including idioms).

    How many words are in the average American’s vocabulary? – Quorawww.quora.com

    I think a 20 year old today is smarter all the time, but do they have this very important quality
    called self-discipline? Now there is the rub.

    I rest my case for competing with a Maverick who is still a kid at heart, but soon I will again test the Waters, where he describes like an architectural design in the poem. IMO the first stanza has been deciphered, analyzed and well…beat to death, it hints and frames our picture of the design. PERIOD, and it contains a pledge…to keep his secrets where, as he has gone alone in there.


  43. To All,

    For an article many here care nothing for, it sure has gotten a lot of attention. Interesting…..
    I wonder who else may be giving the article this much attention….
    Makes you wonder who the intended audience was…..
    If, at the end of the day, it merely brings newcomers to the Chase while those who are already at it know a bit more about the Chase than the author of the article, why sweat it out?
    Right or wrong, too much credit and attention is being given to this article and any significance, or lack thereof, it may have in the Chase. Let’s not let shiny objects such as this, for whatever reason they may stand out, distract us from the task at hand. I am not trying to dismiss the matter, but I imagine time and effort could better be placed elsewhere for those concerned. It would be nice to see a greater level of scrutiny and analysis applied to the poem as has been done to this article. Perhaps maybe then a correct solve would be achieved. All IMO.


    • Ann-
      It is not about the article. It is about the character assassination of the man and his values. Those things are always worth standing up for, in my opinion.
      You don’t seem to grasp the value that many searchers place on the person who’s treasure they seek. Nor do you seem to grasp the respect many of us feel he is due for the life he has lived well. Friends always support their friends in whatever way they can…don’t they?

      • Good response to Ann, Dal. Ann, the article made my blood boil with anger. Is shiny object the phrase you meant to say? It seems misplaced. Your writings are all very clipped and dry and sterile. The reactions you’re comparing to a baby’s attraction to a squeezy toy, are human emotions brought on by an unresearched cut and paste slanderous attack on a man many of us have come to love and admire. If a writer like this Popular Mechanics hack, attacked my wife or someone close to me in an article like that, the only shiny objects would the ones under both of their eyes.

      • dal,

        Absolutely. I am not taking away from any defenses made. Just noting that the article was obviously not intended for the loyal search community and I don’t feel it is worth the valuable time and effort of the loyal search community to give such a disagreeable article so much time and attention.

        As is often the case here where opinions may differ, we should not exhaust our energies on attempting to sway the opinions of those with whom we disagree. Personally, I’d rather focus on something more positive, especially during these already chaotic times.

        Will there be critics of FF and the Chase? Sure. Do you think FF is sweating the criticism, whether the criticism is right or wrong? I think he has more important things to worry about. FF is no push over and he’s had to face critics before, such as those in the art dealing industry over his methods.

        We ought not to take to heart the words of those who know so little of us. Doing so only empowers them. And ought we not to be so quick to judge lest we be judged ourselves? All I’m saying is why give breath and time to something so clearly not worth giving breath and time to?

        Want to support FF? Then don’t pay undue attention to the naysayers and give them fuel to fan the flames that may rub you the wrong way because of your personal beliefs and feelings on the matter. (And by the terms “you” and “your” I am referring here to the general “you” not necessarily you specifically dal.)

        Instead, rise above the temporary noise and honor the man with more worthy efforts than paying undue attention to those with whom we disagree. Feeding into the injury only perpetuates it, like picking at a scab. Do not let the sore fester. Do not scratch at the itch. Treat it accordingly and move on.

        All is IMO of course and no harm or disrespect intended or meant. Please don’t take my words to heart for sure! 🙂


        • Ann. In your defense towards the folks here you are repeating and doing exactly what they are towards there opinion of what the writer has done in his article. So how can you say what your saying to the folks here when you are telling them to dismiss what you are continuing to do. You are in the circle using the circle to diminish it.
          Some might call that hypocritical.
          Don’t condem a process that you are using yourself.
          This is not sent with any disrespect or hard feeling. It’s just something worth considering.

          • Grasshopper,

            To each their own. I was simply trying to move on from the unrest the article has stirred. It has grown into something it never was and now we find ourselves chitchatting about that. Such is precisely what I was trying to deter. Sorry you feel it is hypocritical. No condemnations from me. Change comes from within. Consider it considered. All IMO.


    • “Let’s not let shiny objects such as this, for whatever reason they may stand out, distract us from the task at hand.”

      LOL!! So Annie, you assume that searchers are not capable of chewing gum and walking in a straight line at the same time???

      (couldn’t resist 🙂 )

      Good Luck to Ya, Ann Of the Nymous

      • loco,

        I think I was going more for being lured in and getting hooked by something that is neither food for the Chase, nor healthy to digest. Thanks for not resisting. 🙂 All IMO.


    • I’ve abstained from commenting on the above so-called article… not because I don’t care… but sometimes it is best for me to keep my trap closed when reading articles such as that, and other ridiculous drivel. My sentiments in regards to the words written cause me to pause and wonder…. Who the hell is this person, and why does this person form such opinions about another without regard to the facts/truth. There are many bottom feeders out there… too many for my liking. It makes me think about donning my trusty ol’ cape and newly acquired face garments… aww never mind…. but Karma is a b***h for sure.

  44. I enjoyed reading every entry!
    You are all winners!
    Congratulations to the top three!


  45. So many beautiful memories shared in the contest! So much so, I feel connected to all!

  46. Tried to read the Popular article but it seems the site she doesn’t work.
    Now, none of you would have anything to do with that, would you?!
    Pretty sure Mr. Fenn knows about sticks and stones, bones and names not hurting.
    The pen may be mighty but there was this boogey man in a bar, a pencil and three guys….who does that?

    • ChickenOne,

      Why would the only option be because of a possibly nasty email? Hopefully nobody was rude.

      But maybe they received tons of emails and got tired of reading them? Wouldn’t that be a logical approach as well?

      Maybe they can better answer your concern? If ya want to read mine, I can post it. Nothing nasty. Just as I posted here but I added some hope that she visit HOD and go from there.

      I even mentioned that once indulgence is found that she write another article. Who knows, it could be magical?


      • Wow…I just had one of those piffany’s!!!


      • f is not wet behind the ears, I think he needs to pick up his pen and tell her how it is. He should end what she started by himself.

    • The site works. I was just there. Read the article. Send an email response discussing the author’s journalistic practices (or rather, lack thereof) and writing ability. Stunned that some editor allowed this to be published.

  47. Congratulations to the contest winners!!!!!

    As I was looking over all the entries and reading the notes attached thereto, I had a difficult time deciding which “thing” to submit for my own entry. Ultimately I was unable to produce a picture of my favorite thing. Every time I thought of one abject it was immediately followed by another. Each one having some special meaning for me. But it was the reason each object held such special meaning that I wanted to share with all of you. And that reason, that meaning, is what I could not capture with a photograph.

    It’s the fond memories. Those are the most important thing to me. They capture all the important parts of life and I can carry them with me always. Nothing is more near and dear to me except perhaps the original moments themselves. Hope everyone is creating new fond memories during these new and challenging times, and cherishing the moments creating them. All IMO.


    • Very nice thought Ann, and one that everyone can certainly relate to. At least I sure hope so!

      • I concur, Geysergirl. Ann’s thoughts rang true to me, too. I had a hard time trying to choose just one, mostly because of the memories each held. A hand-carved horse-drawn sleigh with a couple sitting in the sleigh my grandfather made and had given to me when I was around twelve years old. All of the homemade treasures my children made while in school, which I proudly display in my china cabinet rather than my china. My Canon camera which captures my memories from A-Z. The shelves of photos and albums of such memories held in still motion to help me remember those precious times. My wedding gown and silk bouquet. Yes, so many things, and all related to our precious memories and how they touched our hearts.

  48. “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve”

    forever for forthwith far-reaching

    • That’s so funny! I love how Tim says hashtag John Wayne instead of #JohnWayne. It’s always good to try on a new hat to see if it fits. Way to go Tim!

  49. This is not Cowboy Logic Frensy and Writis, but it makes pretty good sense to TT:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foU1qgOdtwg … listen at 8 min thru 16, iMO the difference in the message of the poem and our perceptions of the riddle, unless we are present in the place where or imagination feels comfortable, we cannot understand Warm, or Waters unless we “Halt” and observe the condition of our spirit, that is why Scrapbook 241, “Olden Wood” is worth a revealing look inside, first, the chest is closed, like our preoccupied mind with a jumble of thoughts, then it is opened to reveal a treasure, what is WWWH and what has it got to do with the 3 Spanish Crosses and that Bulto? Awareness is not just a thought, it is a message to see things with your BEING in the Now, so why do these words WWWH present such an obstical? What ff say is Important to express has been seen here and is the opinions of some that hot water coming from mother earth is where we begin, yet it could not the real metaphor that Forrest illustrates in this poem, yes is it a geographical place, most assuredly but IMHO it cannot be found without your spirit being present and putting attention to Important Literature, I think, but more importatly I am aware, and in the now.


    • Imo a treasure hunter needs to go beyond relentless. Is that Faith driven by hope in the pursuit of perfection through verification. If so where is the evidence? Is it revealed in the determining factors of verification? Are the factors quantified by magnitude and volume? How massive does a clue need to be? How many hints are there to a clue? How many hints in a book? How many licks does it take to get my tootsie to the center of this pop.

  50. WWWH – An awful lot has been said of the WWWH as being where “warm water” meets with cold water, such as water from a hot spring mixing with cold river water being a common one.

    I haven’t heard (though I have not read everything on Dal’s blog – but slowly working on it) of it being a sort of opposite concept of this.

    What if it is a region where most of the water is warm (or even hot) such as the Yellowstone area, however – throw in a spring, or similar source of water that is ‘cold’ in an otherwise warm water landscape. Wouldn’t that be a “WWWH”?

    A further twist on what ‘warm’ might be would be the idea of water being ‘warm’ due to Radium (whether a hot or cold water source temperature wise) halted.

    Just wondering what others thoughts might be on these… or is it too much of a stretch?

    • HotL, I’d consider it a stretch because it seems your question has been answered by f before…

      Dear Forrest,

      You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

      a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and

      b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

      Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? Steve

      No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
      The way I interpret f’s reply is that the answer to the correct wwwh doesn’t hinge on just the info of wwwh and b. above.

      The answer hinges on something else. Just like the second clue prbly hinges on figuring out the answer to the first clue.

      • Fundamental Design, you are preaching to the Choir!

        If a little girl in India can find WWWH and another clue, most likely the Canyon, then it seems pretty clear that we can learn WWWH it may have many POSSIBLE places, but there is only one that counts.

        So what would someone with a spirit like Forrest Fenn judge worthy as a place to start that is so important it is 50 percent of the way there (riddle) in its metaphorical sense? I think, dear Fundamental, it’s elementary.

        Hint, it might be what a parent gives their little girl to help here begin life with some level of COMFORT, a warm feeling that Father Loves You, a CH_______ in the Mountains works for this dad, how about you? I thinks that SC Book 241 is a revealing of what and where metaphorically we need to find….IMHO, note the latest SC Book 252 seems like what hides best is what is precious in ff’s repertoire…
        Gosh! I feel Terrific having said that?

        • Speaking of Hints and Secrets, there is a big secret in SC Book 178 see: https://dalneitzel.com/2017/04/15/scrapbook-one-hundred-seventy-eight/ …titled “The Graciella Experience” which shows a plain simple sweet yet perplexing image of a native girl that Forrest Fenn said was named Graciella, however upon more careful research, IMO her, the “Gracie” was actually a native girl that the Artist Robert Henri was famous for using as a subject ver often in his paintings, her actual name was Gregorita, which actually means in Spanish “little girl Gregory”
          See these images and tell me if you think I am weird for saying this?

          Now Forrest mentions in that SC Book “And there it was in grand lighting, the Graciella Henri. It was hanging where it had been for a month while I tried to warm up to that little girl. No other clients were allowed to see her because I was saving it for my special client.f” Why mention Cary Grant and “TO CATCH A THIEF” and in a final line, ff says “An hour later my wife walked into the office and asked why I was reading my bible. I didn’t mean to be rude, I just didn’t want to talk about it. f”

          This was an April 15th 2017 posting, was Forrest unhappy about having to pay his taxes? Was that the Thief in question or was it the fact that the WHITE HOUSE knew about him stealing that Leaf from the Lawn in 1973 on November 11th and they were gonna come and haul him away? Only the Shadow Knows? He is in the funny books like most stick figures of his time…
          I kinda like that Gregorita, could be a relative? Just sayin?

          • Art History is so revealing, just like plant life and the reflections of hitting a box elder tree in SCBook 211. An arborist is a specialist, whereas a horticulturist could be considered a generalist when it comes to plants. The science of horticulture covers a wider spectrum than that of an arborist so between plant life and art what is the real subject for Forrest? The Riddle might suprise some searches IMO.

            see also


          • I do think in the beginning of understanding WWWH I was a generalist, so my solutions were well plain like a Henri painting of Gregorita, but today I am looking at family trees for the answer metaphorically perhaps, I mean, I think I can, I think I can said Thomas the train… TT

          • I just have to mention this in passing.
            The other day, I was cleaning up my home office and on the bookshelf lay two large dried pressed leaves. I wondered whether I should trash them but my thots drifted back to the day I picked them up. I was in DC and grabbed them off the White House lawn. I blew off the dust that had gathered on them over the last few years and placed them gently back on the shelf.
            Just ramblin….

          • Speaking of questions and railroads…weren’t many of the manual laborers who worked on the first railroads built through the West, from China? They were then in the vernacular known as “coolies,” or sometimes referred to as “celestials.”

          • Ronny – not only did they work the RR’s but cleaned up our dirty laundry. I do believe that they sang while they worked. Are we “off-topic” here? Naw…..

          • Interesting take TG. Seems like hob is relative like wwwh. IMO metaphorically speaking of course. Great movie too! IMO

        • wwwamericana, BIngo, as in SC 169, LA Church WWWH, you said “I wondered whether I should trash them but my thots drifted back to the day I picked them up. I was in DC and grabbed them off the White House lawn. I blew off the dust that had gathered on them over the last few years and placed them gently back on the shelf.
          Just ramblin….

          What did ff say in SCBook 243, “I remember the Bip” “Chiseled on a flat sandstone slab, and placed atop his little space, are these words, Bip, so long old friend, for now. I just went out and brushed the snow away to see if there was a date. There wasn’t, and I’m glad, because I don’t want to know when he passed away. I just want to remember that, in a real way, he is still with me. f” SO what is it about page 9 that brings such a warm feeling in A River Runs Through It? I think, It could be in the up coming Winter Thoughts II, Amazing Scrapbook ?


          • So wwwamericana, where did those thots come from I ask? Now I do not wish to cause other searchers to follow this. The Merriam Webster “Word of the Day” and cause a pandiculation here when we cannot proceed with certainty to our appointed halts along the path that contains the $64 dollar question, say the magic word and you win in the lottery of life…Wait a minute, something on page 9 really is wrong…?


          • I knew your real last name wasn’t Terrific.
            Did you change your handle and Gravatar because Brady Went to Tampa?

          • TT – that word “Pandiculation” REALLY is the word of the day – yawwwwwnnnnn….

            You ask – “where did those thots come from?” – My special place, of course, – it’s mine and mine alone. Alot of cobwebs in there tho.

            You mention Page 9 – which edition?

          • TT – Still looking for that chiseled sandstone slab, from atop the wall, at San Lazaro Pueblo, to mark the treasure location. Wasn’t at my hidey spot out Baker’S Hole. May need to do another canvas of the immediate vicinity…

          • Hi Lisa, It’s awful news about Charmay. I heard she was the only one who new of Forrest’s secret spot. I often wonder if she took that valued information to the grave with her.

          • Gosh! Truth is out, Jake, I am actually a British recording artist, “see younger me”..TT or TG what is right on my fingertips, or the tip of your tongue…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDrdCKOp3k
            Sold 7 million and climbing und der Deutchland!

            COLD PLAY is still pretty good but look out, this guy is TERRIFIC
            wwwamericana, and Lisa I know you can feel that tt is onto something…rigt

          • TT – Yes. You read or own Forrest’s “The Secrets of San Lazaro Pueblo”, right! And anyone used to be able to see that pic, of Forrest sitting below the wall, there, in the banner that ran across the top of his website; the one with all his published books. That pic isn’t there anymore. But the 15 page TTOTC book excerpt is. The one with Forrest’s Rainbow-shaped epitaph at the end. Is that ‘the end of Forrest’s rainbow and the treasure’?


          • Suzy_S – I was also so sorry for Forrest, upon hearing of Charmay’s passing. She and Forrest started their One Horse Land & Cattle Co. to publish Forrest’s books in the mid-90s. And she discovered that hidden compartment, below ground in that Kiva at San Lazaro Pueblo. The one that looks like the shape of an upside down Omega in the book pic. And had a flat stone covering the top…

          • Her and Forrest must have been real close. Kind of interesting that they even had the same year and model of vehicles.

            Wish I could have known her better long ago…

        • Your enlightening words lit a fuse for me which is eye opening. Quite possibly the only map clues of soulful importance.

          Thank you Mr. Gregory!

          • Suzy_S this is a story a decade in the telling for me, but for Forrest it is his life’s story, his memoirs that he told us with such profundity, from his first memories, I have just watched the Easter Story of hope and deliverance for a world that is by many accounts lost, but that is not true, we may find the Riddle of Where Warm Waters Halt is much more about someone’s concern for our spirit than even the quest of saving the Rockies for future generations, perhaps ff means to save our spirit and in turn, we and generations to follow will save them and the planet.

            It is a bold thought and a big challenge, but look what a simple carpenter was able to accomplish 2000 years ago, have faith there is a message in this madness, quarantine will be over soon and somewhere out there love will see us through, out where dreams come true.


          • Suzy_S this is a story a decade in the telling for me, but for Forrest it is his life’s story, his memoirs that he told us with such profundity, from his first memories, I have just watched the Easter Story of hope and deliverance for a world that is by many accounts lost, but that is not true, we may find the Riddle of Where Warm Waters Halt is much more about someone’s concern for our spirit than even the quest of saving the Rockies for future generations, perhaps ff means to save our spirit and in turn, we and generations to follow will save them and the planet.

            It is a bold thought and a big challenge, but look what a simple carpenter was able to accomplish 2000 years ago, have faith there is a message in this madness, the quarantine will be over soon and somewhere out there love will see us through, out where dreams come true.


          • I may be more into your message than you can ever know Tom. Hopefully, we might meet up some day so I can share my view with you. Until then, I’ll enjoy your words!

  51. One of the pictures I sometimes see, at the top of my screen when I visit this blog, is one that shows some of Lake Tahoe. The picture was apparently taken from a place relatively near Emerald Bay, which I think is kinda nice; it reminds me of treasure (emeralds).

    I was also noticing that the width of the waterway seems a bit narrower at the mouth of the
    bay, compared to the width of the bay and the rest of the lake. This reminds me of an “hourglass” (sometimes called an egg timer), or the number 8. Or even the symbol for infinity, which looks like the number 8 rotated 90 degrees. Is there an intended hint in this picture?

    • Focus, you know as well as I do that you can find hints just about anywhere. Take the infinity symbol. As it looks like an 8 on it’s side, it also looks like a saddle. Like the saddle of the mountains. Stand two 8’s on either side, you get 3 8’s or 24. Also, 8008, is that the elevation? 800 one way, 800 the other, could that be the omega symbols? Or 80, forwards and back, the theme.
      Fun to play with, but not a help, IMO.

  52. HotL, Fundi, Tom G….. I really like all your reasoning and inquiry in the preceding posts…. especially Fundi’s point that all we have to go on is:

    a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and b. ““somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe“

    Can we confidently determine the starting place….. and ff replies “NO”

    After a. & b… maybe we should dwell more on stanza 5 “The answers HE (ff) already knows.”

    • OS2 you be gettin smarter all zee time. SOmethinks that there is a family tree secret from Olden Wood? IF I could only sign up for Ancestry and find the lines in find a grave, then we might see what the Bip knows? Gotta like memorials in Home of Brown, is it Cleveland or just the National Animal of Canada?


      • TT,

        Cleverland has the annual stop light festival., butt beavers are scary dangerous! Taint dat rhite?

        Is there another choice by chance?


        • ByGeorge, beavers i often see in the wild in Southern CO, and Nothern NM, if you let them alone they will live and let live, they will in my experience fiercely defend their home territory, even to the point of attacking other animals, the Home of Brown may simply mean where their home territory is, like Beaver Creek, If one has a home in Leadville, CO and their house burns down, or washes away, where is their HOME now? It is still Leadville, right? Perhaps Beaver Creek from SCbook 238 mention is hint?

          Territorialism is well illustrated in SCbook 247, AKA patriotism, home land defense, Warm feeling is also HOME in SCbook 246 ff illustrates some info to Ardi about a Beaver and their Home,
          perhaps the Home of Brown is not a Who is Brown’s House, but a WHat is BROWN? 2013 was a revealing time so listen to ff’s response to that question at about 11 min….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk&index=20

        • ByGeorge, did you mean to misspell Cleveland as Cleverland?

          Curious? Well sometimes if we mispell a word it will bring attention or make a point…right? KNOWLEGE is actually know- a-ledge, in my book where the sunshine’s on the blaze and imagination becomes a simile, metaphor, idiom or puns,… be like: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid. Please do not look that up in the URBAN DICTIONARY, that is NOT the meaning IMO.

          1.a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words

          2.a characteristic mode of expression in music or art.


  53. Suzy_S
    “Hi Lisa, It’s awful news about Charmay. I heard she was the only one who new of Forrest’s secret spot. I often wonder if she took that valued information to the grave with her.”

    No place to reply to this comment above. Where did you hear this interesting information Suzy-S? Please, I’d love to see the quote you are referencing.


    • BroStevo, it was mentioned on some old SB posts that I read. After reading a few, it kinda turned into a feud though and is probably best not discussed.

      I have no idea of the connection, or how it came about, other than Charmay found the secret hiding place of corn at San Lazaro Pueblo.

  54. On page 134 in TTOTC Forrest is evidently drawing our attention to dollars because the (pictured) bell has dollars misspelled, whereas its description has the correct spelling.

    I can see how “Ring the bell loudly -” might be referring to the termination of the Chase (including a crown of ownership) but, explicitly speaking, what would the mention of the word dollars have to do with it?

    Could Forrest be alluding to the importance of this word in its literal definition?

    • Never mind, I think I found the answer. If I’m not mistaken Kieth Urban sang a song about dollars which ties in nicely. I wonder if that’s where Forrest got it from.

      • Suzy_S – Let’s look up Errol Flynn movies, shall we?:

        “Any man who dies with more than $10,000 to his name is a failure.” – Errol Flynn

        I know he played a swashbuckling pirate…

        Forrest seems to like to tweak famous quotes, or song lyrics, to make them his own. I used to carry a crisp, new ‘Grant’ in my wallet, whenever I traveled on The Chase to the Greater Yellowstone area, last Summer. I have since needed to spend that to keep my phone service going. Bummer.

        U.S. Grant and the founding of YNP….I thought the $50 denomination was a really big hint to the bell being buried, 3 feet down, near the hidey spot for the bronze chest. I actually found two slightly different sized holes of soft Earth, right near each other, at my hidey spot out Baker’S Hole. I used my hands to investigate the larger, but not the smaller.


        • Suzy_S – And I have always thought the ‘dollers’ vs. ‘dollars’ thing was a nod to Eric Sloane, and Forrest’s book, “Seventeen Dollars A Square Inch”. I think the ‘e’ is for Eric. Who happened to love bells.

        • Lisa, is it just you and I that think a bell is buried close3 by the chest? He said some bells are buried on land managed by the Bureau of Land Management, think the chest is on this type of land? I have a lot of info that points to this thought, of a bell being near the spot. In fact, I believe it is the bell that is on page 137 of TToTC. There is a question to f if anything of significate value is near the chest, where his reply was “nothing of significate value”. I’ll look for the comment. Makes me think that something of not much value IS near by. Or a bell. It leads to a good end of the story.

          • Featured Question with Forrest Fenn: The Bronze Jars
            July 13, 2016
            The question and answer is down in the comments section.
            The real question that should be posed is:
            Did you Mr. Forrest hide anything other than the treasure chest of significant monetary value. A second chest or cache?
            Open ended questions never resolve questions.
            Perhaps Forrest if your reading this you’ll answer in the comments section.
            Thx Don
            from Flagstaff AZ
            Flagstaff AZ 4 years ago

            No Don, nothing of significant value, but it has long been my habit to drop a coin way out in the hinterland someplace, and scrape dirt on top of it. That practice costs me very little, but the result could be significant to someone in the distant future. I just love doing things like that. f
            Forrest Fenn 4 years ago

            Sounds like to me that f left something else behind. The number 12016 is also a hint, in the original question. He could have used any number, so why this one? That one number, for me, confirms his walking distance, a reference for the “key”, and the hint in the book confirming. It’s pretty cool, involves the Bighorn Medicine Wheel. Which, IMO, is some kind of map to some of the bells, but is not very precise, except for one bell.:).

          • And, yes, IMO, points to E. Sloane about the bell. I think Eric gave a couple bells to f. And, is something Eric gave to f that if you flip the pic on top of itself, (this is a stretch), it plainly says: Eric gave X.
            This “X” we are all looking for, IMO, is where the bell is, the 8th clue. Solve the one clue, the last, gets you to the chest. All this, IMO, but I have some nice back up info. So, at your spot, next time you are out there, I would take it very seriously that a bell is near-by. You find that bell, then all you need, IMO, is a solve for the last clue, a distance and direction.

          • poisonivy – Awesome responses with tons of great information! None of which conflict with my theories about that particular bronze bell.

            How about Hebgen Lake Ranger District controlled land, as compared to BLM land? Love those Rangers. They are so helpful and nice.

            If Forrest designed and did his own casting for that bell, which he did, I guess that would fit the ‘no significant value’ category, wouldn’t it?

            “So hear me all and listen good…”

            Ring the bell loudly. Don’t forget! At my hidey spot, the camp manager, Larry, and the patrolling Rangers,ight think it’s a fire drill, though.

          • Lisa and poisenivey, I’ve already considered your suppositions. But given the degree of the land mass involved, it seems like a pretty far reach to me. And a $50 bill can come in handy but it may also come in many different conditions (new, old, borrowed, lended, etc.). Not to mention that holding onto one of those babies can be pretty difficult, especially when there’s little money in one’s wallet to match it.

            In considering your implications, it sounds like the both of you are indicating two treasures with the mention of two holes. Yet until we get BOTG and find the tc, how could we completely know? I guess I’ll do a little research.

            I can definitely picture somebody ringing a bell at the place of the treasure. That’s pretty clear, otherwise Forrest wouldn’t have designed a bronze bell to match. It kinda gives me butterflies thinking about it, I just hope it’s sooner than 1000 years down the road.

            Additionally, I think I see your reasoning behind the 3 feet thing. But regardless of how deep the TC is, or how it’s filled in, I think most of us would have dirt flying for hundreds of feet trying to get that thing out. If it were me, and my dogs were along, I would definitely be giving them pointers.

            Move over Fido, mama’s gonna show you how this is done!

          • Don’t worry Lis, I’m not near your spot. Same state, but a little West. I only say BoLM because that’s what he mentioned on page 138 of TToTC. Plus, page 137 defines his secret plan, burying jars and bells. He can keep his “secret” where?
            As the bell may be buried 3′ deep, I don’t think that is the same for the chest. I’m still in the “seek-no-further” tree camp, hidden within.
            Lastly, top of this page, 2019 late Summer interviews, I like the first interview, wonder why f shared that story with us…

          • Since there’s so many different places to search and choose from in the treasure hunt, it would only be supposition to talk about the end, especially when locating WWWH remains nearly impossible in and of itself.

            However, Forrest does talk about flexibility and indecision as being the key. So maybe I’m wrong, but it appears to me that 12,016 is the key to reaching the end. And maybe I’m wrong again, but I think that if a person got to that point, it should allow a person to understand the heart of the matter and find the bell that Forrest wants us to ring.

            As Forrest states on one of his bells, imagination is more important than knowlege, I think this is also part of the key. With being at that spot, it should place a person right on top of where we need to be. Though it might still require some additional searching, I’m thinking that something should stand out as being obvious.

          • Susy_S, your mention of 12,016 sent me on a search for a mountain peak having an elevation of 12,016 feet.

            Voila, Medicine Bow Peak in Wyoming is listed as such.
            And there’s a nearby lake, Heart Lake, through which a
            BORDER runs. (I have thought, starting a long time ago, that perhaps a heart is where “warm waters halt”.)

            Other names of nearby features seem to “ring a bell” with me in the context of this hunt. There’s Lewis Lake,
            for example, as well as Browns Peak. And others: Scott
            Lake, Arrowhead Lake, and Crescent Lake. And I haven’t mentioned some other features whose names also caught my eye.

            But this area seems so isolated, and distant from what I
            would consider “support services” such as lodging, a gas station, or a grocery store, that it doesn’t seem very
            convenient for a typical family to be searching (hiking) there. I (so far, anyway) haven’t found enough “connection” or “support” to “firm up” a belief that this area is where FF hid his trove. But it’s been fun looking
            at this area.

          • Tall Andrew, sounds interesting to me. Looking, whether locating the treasure or not, compels me onward.

          • Suzy_S – Larry is the Camp Manager at Baker’S Hole. Dal spoke to him, and found out Larry was a former student of Marvin Fenn in Temple, TX.

            Yeah. He did.

          • Hey, Lisa. Do you ever do BOTG in Wyoming? I think I finally figured out how to follow the clues. If you have any interest in searching in Wyoming, I’ll explain the solve to you. And you can judge wether it could be feasible. The name of the place is right in the poem if you know how to read it right.

          • Lisa, I see now.
            I always wanted to be a ranger when I was young, but that was more than likely due to watching the Lone Ranger as a kidd. I saw a lot of his reruns.

          • NoName6 – Oh, I’ll go traipsing around Wyoming, whenever I can! I have explored the Grand Teton National Park for a few months, and around the Madison, Gibbon, and the Firehole Rivers in YNP. And I visited an old friend in Cheyenne, back in the 90s. I really want to go to the old Wind River Indian camps, way up at 10,000ft., to see those Whitebark Pines up there. And I want to go to the Buffalo Bill Center of the West, to check out the McCracken Research Library. And all of the museum collections. And I want to see the Bighorn Medicine Wheel, near the Pryor Mountains, where I expect to encounter the Little People, who have always been good at Social Distancing…

            I may not have time to check out your solve for you, but why don’t we all just vet it here?

          • Lisa, I envy you. The scenery in the West is almost alien to. I’ve never been west of Cincinnati. It seems like there’s much more variety in nature than we have here in the East. And I’ll try to walk you through my thoughts on this solve. Chances are few will read it. And the ones that do won’t think it’s right. LOL
            Firstly, I think there are only 2 clues that will help you.
            So I believe the new and old line is hinting at how you should interpret the WWWH line. New and old are opposites. What’s a word in the poem that is the opposite of warm and could also be used to describe WWWH? How about all the way down to the third to last line, cold. I think WWWH is telling you to start at the word cold in the poem. Now, notice that there is no comma after the word halt. So this, to me, tells you you have to do one other thing from the word cold in the poem. And take it in the canyon down. So if you go down from the word cold you run into the word wood. And the clue literally tells you that it’s the name of a canyon. Wood Canyon. Also note that both of these lines have the words “in the” in them. So if you look at Wood Canyon on a map, it is side by side with Red Canyon. Red meaning Native American or “brave” So I think it’s where Red Canyon and Wood Canyon meet. It’s pretty close to Lander, Wy. Have a look and see what you think.

          • NoName6 – Yes! I also want to go to Lander, WY. Find someone, like Shiloh, who can fly a private plane into Hunt Field. Great thoughts! They have a Climbers Festival there every year. I am afraid of heights, but I can dream, can’t I?

            Your ideas fit my longtime original solve. Red Canyon is adjacent to Cabin Creek, named for the original C.C.C. cabin, built in the 1930s, at the top of that drainage. Kinda near White Mountain and Sage Peak. With Teepee Creek in a possibly WWWH basin, below White Mountain and Red Streak Peak, just on the other side of a ridge from that cabin. Which is accessible by horse or ATV in the Summer and Snowmobile in the Winter.

            Thanks for sharing!

          • Lol I’m afraid of heights too, Lisa. You are really knowledgable about local geography. You seem determined too. I’m surprised you haven’t found the thing yet. So do Wood Canyon and Red Canyon touch? The only creeks I saw in those canyons is Beaver Creek and Gyp Creek. So maybe the other 7 clues only make sense in that location?

  55. Thanks Tom, but I know his songs and I’d say you were pulling my leg with that one.

    Now if I could only bellieve the rest of what you say. Okay, you know I’m kidding, right?

  56. Luck maybe more important than both imagination and knowledge.

    Locked the keys in my sons truck while is was running. Didn’t have the combination. The engine was getting over heated after an hour. I started to enter numbers at random in the key pad for another 30 mins when I was about to give up and thought about siphoning the gas from the tank, then just as I was about to quit at the key pad “click”, Oh what a wonderful sound. I couldn’t believe it, one in a million, ten million. That is true luck . I now believe luck is more important. Time to strike at the poem while I’m hot! lol…….

  57. Maybe the key to solving the poem, is remembering that Mr. Fenn said the chase was meant to be fun. And that the finder would say what took me so long. and Mr. Fenn saying that he hid the chest, to give something back to the (local community).

    • Thanks for the links to the good morning-reading material, dal. I can’t remember reading about Forrest’s mention of the Virgil Russell book before, but I may have forgotten it over time.

      “Indian Artifacts” by Virgil Russell is still available on Abebooks.com and a copy is now on its way to me. We still have a decent bit of time to pass before search season gets here, and it sounds like a good read!

      • I received my copy of the book in today’s mail and it’s a neat little book. It looks like “Indian Artifacts” was published in 1951, but there were earlier editions titled “Indian Artifacts of the Rockies” that were more specific to our search area. I wonder if the copy that Forrest received from his mother was actually one of these earlier editions that were specific to the Rockies? If not, Forrest would not have received this version (which includes much of the same visual material but is geographically expanded to outside the Rocky Mountains) until he was into his very early 20’s.

        It’s also worth noting that Virgil Russell’s wife Stella did all of the illustrations by hand in order to better show the detail of the objects than (grainy at the time) photographs would. Her drawings are really sharp (no pun intended)!

        The other thought I had that caused my imagination to go off wandering a bit: Could Virgil Russell be a direct relative of Osborne Russell? Wouldn’t that be a cool connection! Looking forward to reading this in more detail, but I like what I’ve read so far.

    • There was a fairly recent post from a Chaser who had a solve somewhat close to the 3-corners area where the cache was supposedly discovered, wasn’t there? The one by Lake Alice and Hobble Creek Campground. I can’t recall the title or the searcher.

      Have there been other solve theories around this particular neck of the woods? That’s the only one I can think of.

          • Blex,

            No problem! I too was/am interested in that area. I was led to it for slightly different reasons than the posted solve suggests. The marker is so very curious. Seems the posted solve is the only source for an actual picture of it…..odd. I haven’t looked over the are much recently but would be willing to discuss ideas about it if you wish. Let me know or you can get my email from Dal if you don’t want to talk about it openly here.


          • Ann – I’d be interested in hearing any thoughts you have about the area and were willing to share publicly, but understand if you still have some thoughts that you’d like to keep to yourself for the time being.

            Honestly, what I liked most about this solve when I first read it was the area in general; it just seems like a nice area of the Rockies off the beaten path that would be fun to visit for its own sake.

            There are some things about garnum’s solve that I thought were really interesting (the fact that Spring Lake Creek disappears underground for a short stretch coming down from Lake Alice was one), and other aspects that I did not care for as much in terms of a solve for the poem (the “home” of Brown being a grave site was one). All in all though, I agree that it was a fun post to read.

            When dal shared the article above on the Clovis points in the Fenn Cache being (allegedly) discovered in the same general area (technically Lake Alice still looks to be about 25-30 miles away from 3 Corners), that piqued my curiosity. I wonder if this may have been an area that the Utah searchers were looking at closely before Forrest crossed Utah off the list of possible states. If I remember correctly, I believe Bear Lake just to the west over the state line was a spot where Osborne Russell had rested & recuperated after a particularly tense chase himself. Anyways, let me know if you have any thoughts you’d enjoy sharing on any this!

          • Blex,

            The area is indeed interesting. the submergence and re-emergence of Spring Lake Creek is interesting but due to a landslide and not for natural reasons. I wonder when that slide occurred though.

            But I looked into similar disappearing waters which is where I found the more compelling Sinks. That’s my idea of a great halt.

            I am surprised you don’t find the Estella Brown marker more appealing. Is it because it is a marker? I think it’s “forgotten” nature is akin to the grave FF found himself upon back in Laos. Strang too that it marks a geographic intersection of interest. I actually wondered about the “star” reference as well.

            A little north of the marker is the Periodic, which is not unlike the Sinks, though different. I find that one interesting as well for halt, though I caution between a Periodic WWWH and Estellla HOB. That is due to the distance between them.

            But if you really want something interesting to look into in that area, check out Afton! I came across it while exploring the Periodic. For anyone interested in possible hint references and ATF connections, look up what Afton means. You should find it very interesting.

            I will give you that for starters. Let me know what you find, and what about it you find interesting. These should help. So many interesting things from a single word.





          • Ann…what I love about Afton is that backwards, it is “not fa”. Throw in a Texas twang and you’re riding the backwards bike haha.

          • Ann…you have likely already noticed that Lincoln County WY is shaped like a key. Periodic tables, anyone??

          • Sally,

            I thought you would be more interested in :

            “Afton is a Swedish word meaning ‘afternoon’ or ‘evening’.”

            Since FF hid the treasure in an afternoon. And:

            “An Afton is a beautiful girl that is one of a kind. She can be sassy and sarcastic, but when it comes down to it she’s a true friend and an amazing girlfriend. If you happen to find an Afton never let her go.”

            Sort of like that girl the grave marker in Laos told FF to do something should he ever meet her. Sorry, I am still bad with the FF quotes.

            There is perhaps the less appealing :

            “Afton comes in part from a geological term,’aftonian’-coming from the ice; relating to glaciers. ”

            Which for some could be WWWH.

            Also, this Afton is in Star Valley which could be linked to Estella Brown since Estella literally means “star,” a possible HOB.

            I like your “not fa” though! Could be FFs “Not far,”.

            So much from such a little word. Makes you wonder.


            You always find interesting information to pretty much anything! The Lincoln Afton article was interesting. Could this be yet another Afton point of interest in terms of heavy loads and water high (railroads (known to be associated with water) and steamboats?) .

            Again, so much from such a simple little word. Makes me wonder why I ever looked it up in the first place! I think I thought maybe it was originally French and may have had something to do with fur trading and possibly to FFs interest in that journal. Little did I know….

            Thanks for sharing! I like this rabbit hole.

            All IMO.


          • PS-

            Oh yeah! Almost forgot. I hadn’t previously noticed Lincoln County shaped like a key. But, could this be another indication that Afton is a “keyword”? The intrigue continues!


          • Ann O’Nymous – Sorry, I did not notice your reply earlier. I will look into the ideas you mentioned in more detail. Is the Periodic a mountain range? Will poke around more when I have some free time.

            On the grave, I just didn’t like the idea of interpreting a grave as a home. It’s an interesting geographic location though for sure.

          • Blex,

            The Periodic Spring is actually a cold water geyser. I know, I know. Not exactly ideal for WWWH. but it does make a great halt being one of only three in the world like it! If nothing else, it’s one of those places that makes you examine the possibilities for WWWH. What is warm? What does halt mean? Etc. Etc. Enjoy looking into the area.. I like the distances and the one way in and one way out as well. But more than that I really like Afton! Let me know what you think.


          • PS-

            So I have been reminded of the obvious objection to the Periodic as the sign to it indicates it is a cold water geyser. But consider this: FF has mentioned that there are many places where warm waters halt and most are north of Santa Fe. Geysers tend to be thought of as such places and yes the water is normally warm, hot even.

            But in most geysers the warm water that emerges doesn’t halt at the geyser, halt in the sense of no longer being warm. So searchers are left picking some other place down flow from the geyser as a WWWH.

            But what if a geyser (typically known for emitting warm waters) is considered WWWH because the water coming forth from it is already cold and not hot like most would expect from a geyser?

            Just some thoughts and perhaps a stretch of the imagination but plausible. As far as I know FF has never said we are actually looking for warm water. And yes I am familiar with ATFs such as the toe dipping and comfortable.

            The funny thing about water is that the longer you stay in it, the more acclimated your body becomes, so that even cooler water can feel warm. Has no one ever swam in a refreshing pool in the dead heat of summer? Are not such waters said to be warm even though they are not geothermally heated? Food for thought.

            All IMO.


          • Ann – I like the uniqueness of Periodic Spring with respect to the entire search area. Sure, it may technically be a cold water spring, but I don’t think that by itself needs to rule it out completely as a possible WWWH.

            When garnum first posted his Hobble Creek Solve, I roamed around the area on Google Earth and found a nice concentration of a whole bunch of geographic features (creeks I believe) that were named after precious metals and stones and thought it was an interesting area that hinted of riches for sure. Try as I might this morning, I can’t seem to find that area I was looking at again now. They were all along a mountain road that stretched east-west and went through a few small towns. Maybe I’m mistaken and remembering a completely different area of the Rockies, but I thought it was in this part of southwestern WY. Ah well, maybe you can find it!

        • If outdoor social distancing is allowed this summer, I might have to make my way out there. Especially if it holds beauties like those clovis points. Not to mention, that’s one of my most favorite solves of all time.

    • WOW! Those are beautiful. Thanks Dal!

      I never knew that arrow heads were made from such clear quartz crystal. Seems more like a prized possession that an ancient warrior would want to keep, rather than something they would possibly loose in shooting animals.

  58. One more…as long as we are talking about Forrest and his uncanny ability to attract the very best…
    Here is a story written by Forrest’s good friend, Doug Preston. It is from the New Yorker, November 15th, 1999. The story is titled Woody’s Dream…it is about two men…a collector and a fabricator…

    This is a large .pdf so it will take some time to load up in your browser…but a fun read…

    • Thanks for sharing the article Dal. Cant believe I missed that one when I was in my Fenn / Crooke County Cache obsession days. I had a pretty good solve in the Cokeville WY area and looked all around the Tripoint (where WY, UT, ID share a BORDER) area. When I got to the actual Tripoint, there was a deep rectangular shaped depression in the ground. My heart stopped until I realized someone had stolen the monument stone, leaving a treasure chest sized indentation at the summit. Forrest told me a couple of years ago that he sold his Clovis caches, including the Fenn Cache. I would have loved to have seen that in person. When the Fred Harmon Museum was still open in Pagosa Springs, I had taken Forrests advice and visited. There were some really interesting artifacts there, and what looked like a half moon shaped Clovis point like the one in the Fenn Cache. I wondered if Fred and Forrest did any art/ projectile point trading back in the day. Thanks again.

      • Sally Colorado – Ooooh! I have been eyeing Terminal Monument Creek in Montana, accessible off Highway 191, along the Gallatin River, for a week now. Could you please read the description and size of the hole left by one such monument (15″ diameter and 3′ deep?) in this link, and then scroll all the way down to the story about Terminal Monument Creek, to let me know what you think?


        • Hey Lisa – I think the monument dimensions you reference could have been similar. Kind of hard to tell from a big hole in the ground. I believe the monument stone stolen was flat; like a gravestone. After finding the Idaho-Wyoming-Utah Monument (not exactly a tourist destination LOL and glad to have 4WD for that excursion), I was inspired to locate the Terminal Monument you speak of. I did some preliminary research and think I have some good beta on access to the location. It’s of course in Griz country and I want a “search partner” for that adventure. I was going to ask Cynthia – maybe the three of us could put the Tripoint on our list if we can coordinate a trip to West Yellowstone this summer. Thus far, work is insane and all of our vacation time has been cancelled. At least they are giving us hazard pay and overtime is double time. I’m hoping for July. Let me know if you are interested!

          • Sally Colorado – Of course I’m interested! Thanks for the invitation! Oh, no…you, me and Cynthia on The Chase together? That’s a Trumverate or a Trifecta, for sure! If you two are Chaos and Embroidery, who will I be? Maybe Forrest will let me borrow that Brown cowboy hat, that his friend who hunted down all those Grizzes gave to him. Was that George? Or, I could just invite Bart the Bear II, as originally planned…

            I like that top hat Forrest was wearing recently, when Cynthia paid him with TP, from a safe distance, at his gate. Did he wear that in that video you two made, in costume, at his house? Is that a Beaver top hat? Do you think that was a hint?

            And thank you for all you have done and will do, during this difficult time.

          • Lisa…that is the same hat. It has some mileage on it for sure and it suits Forrest well I think! Ok, let’s forget about Embroidery and go as Triple Chaos. I cant sit still long enough to do needlework anyway. Let’s do it! And thank you for the thank you.

          • Not meaning to barge in, but if I came along we could call ourselves the Four (Curved) Corners. What do you all think? Want to put some real Chaos into this thing!

          • Hello Sally Colorado. Would that be the same hat Eric Sloane etched of Mr. Fenn in “Seventeen Dollars a Square Inch” (Mandrake)?

          • Sally and Suzy_S – All members of Team Chaos must hereby read and understand this Forbes article:


            I call dibs on being the Flutterby! No one would have ANY clue where we are headed. Utter Chaos! Because this is:

            “The Thrill of the Chase”

            Could a Worm Hole in Space be TFTW? Yoda?:

            “Begin it WWWH, you must!”

            Is that WWWH here on Earth, Yoda?

            “Canasta, you play?”


          • Lisa, I majored in Chaos, so I think I’ll have no problem in keeping up. I’m just a little concerned about the flutterby thing though.

            I’ll tell you what. You can have the fluttery if I can have the rainbow’s end… that is, as long as it’s the purple end. Red’s not my thing anymore.

          • Feynman has some interesting points that ring home all too well. I f someone applies them to the Chase, I’ll bet we’ll have a winner.

          • Lisa, I see something special in that shirt. I mean, the colors… wow, amazing! I might have to get me one, especially if I’m part of the Chaos Club!

            But as for Feynman, it looks like he was a light-hearted fun loving deep thinker. His freedom of life and thinking, along with his tenacious curiosity for learning, allowed him the ability to solve problems and go where others could not.

            What I also found interesting is his theory on how points where lines meet represent an interaction. Additionally, he used a picture to simplify his methodology for accurate Quantum Physics for which he won the Noble Prize. (Whew… got dizzy there for a second. Felt like I was doing a thesis).

            But this is the field of quantum physics and infinity (the same as the t-shirt). You’re not going to tell me you created a time machine where a person could go into the future to retrieve the treasure, are you?

          • Lisa, all too weird.

            How about you pick me up when you tavel back in time, but let’s not go that far. I mean really, why would you pick 1943 – 1946?

            To be honest, I hate sitting around and doing nothing… and to think I’d have to wait around until the time I was born, that’s just crazy. LOL

          • Suzy_S – I am just going to follow Forrest around for those 3 Summers, to find all his secret spots in the West Yellowstone area. Because I think one of them is where Forrest hid the bronze chest.

          • Lisa, I just wanted to follow up with my “All too weird” comment and say that it wasn’t intended towards you, it was meant to be in reference to our minds thinking alike. Time travel has always been an aspiration of mine…

            And going back to the time period you mentioned sounds great if it means we can find the chest. I’ll rent the DeLorean.

          • Hey Lisa, one last note.

            I was thinking that if we head back in time, maybe we should focus on Forrest’s late preteen years first. It doesn’t hurt to be curious and inquisitive, and who knows what we might find if we do little sniffing around?

            If all else fails, maybe we could pick up some old barn wood for some of my art projects. Finding that stuff is probably a dime a dozen, especially way back then. Besides, old wood really brings out the beauty in that eye of perfection. It may seem silly, but it’s those small details that get to the heart of the matter, allowing us to enjoy life and find happiness.

            Reminds me of finding happiness with my small beagle. Who couldn’t love a dog, their wagging tails, and all the alter egos they possess?

          • Suzy_S – If we’re going to start with Forrest’s pre-teen years, we’re going to need a faster vehicle. I will ask my Uncle Jim to get on it, to retrofit this one:


            I insist on time traveling in style! Do you remember how old Forrest.was, when he became a fly fishing guide in West Yellowstone?

            And I think contacting Shiloh Old would be your best bet for finding perfect ‘Old Wood’ for your art projects. You can Google their website. Always like to keep the home fires burning for Forrest and his family. I would suggest that you feature the ‘heart wood’ in your next piece.

          • Lisa, sometimes Old Wood Pictures can tell a thousand words. I’d love to visit Viveash Ranch someday.

            I remember the photos taken of that place in a SB Forrest posted… great detail, even in the wood doors!

          • BTW, I’m not even sure if that car is fast enough. Then again, beggars can’t be choosers (lol).

          • Suzy_S – Ok. Fine. I will call STRADMAN to retrofit his purple Lamborghini Aventador:


            Unfortunately, the Phantom Hill Race, to benefit the Hunger Coalition, has been cancelled this year. Being in the VIP tent with all the drivers last Summer was an absolute blast. I almost got to ride shotgun with Alex in her Porsche, who was the only female driver. Her Mom jumped in at the last minute, instead. 🙁

          • Lisa, now that sounds like my kind of ride! My favorite color too!

            Bummer about last years race. At least I’m glad you had a shot at it. Us females are great contenders for our male counter parts, they just don’t realize it. Got to have the right stuff, you know.

          • Lisa and Suzy,

            Might I suggest the years 2009-2010 instead when FF supposedly hid the chest. You could just follow him right to it! Then maybe when he makes his way back to the car he will start to laugh but then suddenly pause wondering if the two lovely ladies who just passed him saw what he had been up to. That would be a priceless face indeed!


          • Ann, that’s hilarious!

            What would even be funnier is if Forrest went on thinking that the treasure was still hidden after all these years when it wasn’t because we found it and took it ten years ago!

            LOL, time travel is great!

          • Ann – Good point. And much more fun! Especially if we two ladies exchanged knowing looks, as Forrest passed by, and we were carrying fly rods and backpacks. Giggles.

          • Lisa and Ann. If I could even get within 1700 feet of Forrest, I would consider myself a celebrity. That, in and of itself, would send me flying high. Heck, the word celebrity isn’t even known on my block.

    • Thanks, dal. It took me a few days to sit still and read this one, but it was a good read. I never knew about the whole underground-knapper-community thing!

    • I don’t know about arrowheads except I buy em from the rock guy, or the fancy coin dealer. These are pretty nice for fake ones I think, maybe cheap enough to take to the woods for backup knife!

    • I wonder if ff ever came to see the most recent cache find, the “Mahaffy cache” found in 2008 83 pieces, absolutely authentic, and the burial spot known exactly. although landscapers removed them from the spot and put them on a table or porch near by, now on display…. although the museum is closed for obvious reasons.

      what is striking about the find is that it can be guaranteed authentic, (there was a big problem with the fenn cache in that it had no verified provenance of how it was found) but now, some of the pieces of the Mahaffy cache resemble the fenn cache, so the fenn cache (at least some of the pieces) are most likely authentic, because of the resemblance to a known example now, which forgers (modern day nappers) did not have access too.

      modern technics of authentication now adays probably decided the same thing.. that the fenn cache is most likely authentic.

      • Writis – Thanks for sharing that information! It was really interesting reading about the Mahaffy cache online. I was surprised to read that the cache was discovered on the other side of the Rockies in the foothills of Boulder, but I guess the stone materials can all be traced back to the same general 3 Corners area that the Fenn cache originated from. Really interesting stuff! Here’s the article I just read:

      • I would recommend a visit to the CU Anthropology department where you can see the Mahaffy Cache. Although not as impressive as the Fenn Cache the exhibit is very well done. I have some points in my own collection that are of the same quartzite material in the Mahaffey Cache. Those people did some serious traveling for their raw material. Forrest was interested in and spent time at the Lindenmeier site in Northern CO as well. Another interesting place to investigate.

          • Sally – I’m just a little further south of Denver in Colorado Springs. But yes, I checked out the website for the Soapstone Prairie Natural Area earlier today. I’ve driven up I-25 and highway 287 plenty of times on either side of it, but never bothered to notice it. Looks like a cool place to visit that wouldn’t be clogged with people!

        • Soapstone is only about 20 minutes from me. Near the town of Livermore is a patch of piñon pines too. Not that that means anything.

          • med_evac – Yeah, it’s worth noting that I would consider this entire area to be WAY outside of the Rocky Mountains in general and not anything close to a search location for the treasure.

          • Med evac… and in that Pinon Grove on top of the little hill lies an ancient tool making site. And it is believed the Old Ones planted those Pinons. Like Forrest did a few scrapbooks back. Have you been there?

          • I have only driven passed it on the way to Red Feather to fish. I saw the post about Soapstone. I like hiking around there and it peruaded me to blab a few meaningless words on here. I dont chit chat on here, but have been reading about everyones adventures and thoughts since December 2016.

    • Holy @$%* Woody is a serious talent. I’m a little bummed though because in the last few days I started thinking Clovis points are made by aliens. Now I have to accept Woody is an alien or humans can make these objects. So conflicting.

      • Amber…I like your POINT. It is interesting that modern day humans are seriously challenged to replicate the technology of our ancient relatives.

    • Hello Ken. When I read your comment, I was shocked and had to do a search. I’m saddened by the news. My thoughts and prayers to her family and friends. I’m sorry for the loss of your friend, Mr. Fenn.

    • Thank you for sharing, Ken. The world lost a beautiful artist and Forrest lost a good friend.

    • It is very sobering and definitely sad news. It is humbling… and yet we can be reassured that she lives forever through her works.

    • There’s no escaping the sadness we feel when someone is gone, so it’s important to remember the happiness we shared when they were here.

      Sorry for the loss of another dear friend Forrest.

  59. I am very saddened to read about Glenna. Yes, she will definitely be remembered.

  60. Ever notice that many words in the poem means

    Anweres I already know

    Echo is a synonym of answer

    Sole, solo, one, ace, unique, ….something is to coincidental about those in his books

    The carvings repeat. Wood in weather over time turns light. Light=?

    Not saying any of this means anything. All just coincidental. Odd.

  61. Forrest obviously went to a lot of effort for “The Truth” regarding his Clovis Lithics, I feel certain that Gregory Perino if you mixed excellent copies of Folsom, Clovis or other ancient copies with the REAL THING, this gentleman would recognize the forgeries.

    In https://dalneitzel.com/2019/09/15/scrapbook-two_hundred-five/…ff’s dedication to findin The Truth seems clear to me, Forrest said this “When he said I could come to Tulsa and get his opinion on several of my Cody Complex points, I was thrilled. Greg had been Special Assistant to Thomas Gilcrease of the Gilcrease Museum, and when he died, in 1962, Greg stayed on as a curator.” In my humble opine that is the verification of Forrest Fenn’s tenacity, and his character, he follows that mantra of being truthful, and honest, untils it comes time for ALL the truth…So why would something about he Thomas Gilcrease Museum be kept a BIG secret, or not mentioned truthfully somewhere, what was this Gregory not aware of when the little sculpture of a Billy Goat was found, accidentally in the trash? ” My parking spot behind the museum was tight and as I backed, the car bumper tipped over a large tin garbage can. It made a moderate racket, and its contents spilled all around the local periphery. My embarrassment was hiding behind sunglasses when Greg and I got out to clean up the mess.f” Reminds me of this in SC211 Requiem for a Wreck “But this time I was fiddling with the radio trying to find Meryl Haggard singing Me and Bobby Mcgee.

    Everything was going great until I hit an awkward looking box elder tree. It was in front of the bunk house where Shiloh lives. There was a loud careening noise that resonated around the inside of my car, and parts of something were flying through the air.f”

    What is it that would cause him to cite both these wrecks? IS there a connection to Gregory P. the authority on lithics there and William Robinson Leigh? Leigh is noteworthy at the “Gilcrease M” and people in The Gilcrease in Tulsa also have an original painting on display by Robert Henri called Gregorita? I am suspicious of why Forrest who wants to reveals the truth and goes to such lengths to call the little girl painting in https://dalneitzel.com/2017/04/15/scrapbook-one-hundred-seventy-eight/ The Graciella experience, yet he labeled her as Graciella, when The Gilcrease Museum has one called Gregorita, and there are many other Henri examples of her, the little native girl is Gregorita?

    SO it seems time to quote Shakespeare, ” A rose by any other name would smell as sweet” from Romeo and Juliet, Shakespeare also said “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. SOme thinks and thinks and thanks for the Scrapbooks ff which we may weave like a Canasta Basket, or Embroderie into a tapestry of truth so many and so much time.

    Was Thomas Gilcrease a tribal member of the Creek Nation, so were many from Oklahoma, like my father who loved to make lithics as a hobby, we, my brothers made many Bolo Ties, War clubs and belts, jewelry pieces and sold them as authentic Creek Indian made, not antique, but we have displayed a few here on the “Favorite Thing” page 3 first image there. I think arrowheads and collecting them is almost sacred, a lost art but Doug Preston shinned a new light on it with “Woody”, Dough, such few words you used to make such good points…pun intended,
    My final Point, pun not intended is this: I think once Indulgence is retrieved that place should be designated as Fenn Point..Geeze I know a lege is important to make here especially when it borders on someone’s destiny…


    • Forrest these scrapbooks lately have described Chaos in great detail, who in October would have predicted with such accuracy, this time, this Chaos, only question I keep asking myself is when will this tapestry be woven or embroidered back together, perhaps our collective basing or thought will reveal the next chapter of important literature is it 9 clues or just page 9 that ignites the fire in so we might see the blazing truth of WWWH.


  62. FYI, Driving and Travel restrictions from NY Times article updated April 16, 2020:

    Montana –
    Driving restrictions: Travelers from out of state for nonwork-related purposes must self-quarantine for 14 days or the duration of their visit, whichever is shorter. A stay-at-home order directs people to stay home as much as possible.

    Restaurants: No dine-in service.

    Hotels: Have not been ordered closed.

    Wyoming –
    Driving restrictions: Passage through the state is allowed, but nonresidents who are in-state for reasons other than work must self-quarantine for 14 days or the duration of the visit, whichever is shorter.

    Restaurants: Delivery or takeout only.

    Hotels: Not ordered closed.

    Colorado –
    Driving restrictions: Shelter-in-place order in effect for all but essential activities. On April 9, officials in Gunnison County, home to Crested Butte Mountain ski resort, issued a public health order prohibiting all nonresidents, including nonresident homeowners, from remaining in the county until at least April 30.

    Restaurants: No dine-in service.

    Hotels: Not ordered to close.

    Other: Rocky Mountain National Park is closed. Nonessential travel to rural destinations is discouraged because of limited medical facilities.

    New Mexico –
    Driving restrictions: All travelers from outside the state are asked to self-isolate for 14 days and monitor themselves for any symptoms. Statewide stay-at-home order except for essential activities.

    Restaurants: Takeout and delivery only.

    Hotels: Hotels, motels, R.V. parks and other places of lodging shall not operate at more than 25 percent of maximum occupancy.

  63. This was in my mailbox from Cowlazers today:

    Hey everyone I hope you are all safe and healthy. We are having a FREE searcher poker tournament this Sunday (noon PST) on PokerStars and the winner of the tournament will get a Chaseopoly game shipped to them.

    The instructions on registering are in this video. I will also send a zoom invite for those who wish to be on zoom and will broadcast LIVE on Sunday. email chaseopoly@gmail.com for the ZOOM invite on Sunday!

    Hope to see you at the tables!!


    ps – we also show a new clip from Douglas Preston regarding the lead searcher.

    Mike aka Cowlazars

    join the Grand Adventure on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/groups/210178672890280/

    join the Forrest Fenn Forum – https://www.hintofriches.com/

    • Dal,

      Some of the recent clips (12/20/2019) seem to suggest that FF has confided a few things to Doug Preston about TTOTC. In particular, DP emphatically states that FF has just given you a ‘clue’ during the interview with (KPRO/COW/Cynthia) that no one has ever gotten previously. DP goes on to say he won’t reveal what that is and FF thanks him for not sharing.

      Do we know the extent that FF has confided to DP? Does DP know the entire solve? Did FF designate DP as an alternate in case something happens to FF?

      • I don’t think Doug Preston knows anything too significant about the location of the treasure. And certainly not about the lead searcher. Jeez.
        As always, IMO.

      • I observed DP exclaim excitedly that he thought ff had given away an unintended clue and f thanked him when D said he would not bring to light what that was.

        When I watch people talking I can almost read minds. DP was too exited, and would not have revealed anything, had he been previously aware of the clue. IMO he is in the dark.

        There was something f said in the interview that was available for all ears and I picked up on it. I have not heard him say that before. Maybe that was what D was talking about. Maybe ff gave two clues away that day. One we did not hear.

        Watch the clip again. D was jumping in his seat with excitement. There lies your answer.

      • DP read an earlier version of the poem. Recall that DP advised Fenn at that time that he thought it was too easy, and Fenn rewrote at least part of the poem. I never believed that because DP had seen an earlier version he had figured out the location, but I do think DP has some pretty good idea about at least some of the clues or possibly the general location or area where the chest is hidden. Seeing an earlier version would mean DP could recognize a hint being dropped by Fenn about a clue. https://mysteriouswritings.com/douglas-prestons-foreword-to-forrest-fenns-new-book-once-upon-a-while/

        • Forrest is a very bright star. He would have masked its location to DP by adding chaos, in way of deliberate slip ups and more. The chase is ffs jungle and he knows exactly how to throw the dogs off the scent. DP is only a paintbrush, used by f in the creation of this artwork.

          If you want to find the treasure, stop listening to DP, Cowz and Cynthia and go back to the book and the poem. Oh…and this blog of course!


  64. Just a note:
    Chasing Indy has been hosting live videocasts the past few Tuesday evenings…
    This Tuesday at 7PM Mountain Time her live show will include Cynthia and some searcher nimrod who doesn’t have a clue…
    It’s all good fun…and you can follow along with your fav beverage and join in the fun…
    No entrance fee…and you can stay sheltered…
    Chasing Indy has a promo for the event HERE:

    • Well Dal, if you get the chance to share a story or two about Forrest, Kiwi and I would like to know if
      A. Has Forrest ever went in depth about his lonesome journey down the Madison with you or anyone else?
      B Has Forrest ever explained his plates of fish and their relationship to him as it relates in TTOTC chapter Flywater?

    • Hey Dal
      One of my favorite memories of the chase was when I got to sit with Forrest, you and Cynthia at Cynthia’s campsite and just shoot the breeze, at Fennboree.
      I told Forrest I was with my favorite Chase related people, the creator of the chase, you and Cynthia. Forrest retorted, “you needed to get better friends.”
      But I will watch anyway…

      • Gary-
        That was a fun evening…but I think Forrest was correct…
        That Cynthia is a bad influence.. 🙂

    • Allen,

      Well we know it’s not this drink-

      “It is important that I drink a martini at least once a year so I can continue to remember why I don’t like them.”

      I wonder if the place he drank this martini is located in the “big picture” area of where he hid the chest? A place maybe near where he parked his car or stayed before his two trip down “it”.


        • JDA,

          If Forrest doesn’t like Martinis then most likely he didn’t have that “one” at home, so most likely in his travels somewhere.

          My thought process is complicated at times, and it tends to reach for different ideas when I see certain comments sometimes.

          Hope all in well JDA.

        • JDA, thanks for questioning my solve. It made me keep looking, and I figured out a way to advance the solve passed just 2 clues. I’m gonna tinker around with it and see if I can get nine.

          • You can’t get past clue #2 without a “successful” BOTG. Just FYI. IMO of course.

          • Really, Mr. Obvious? I know I’ve heard Forrest say in interviews that you have to figure out the clues, and go straight to the chest. I’m working on a kind of unique solve ATM where you answer the clues with various words in the poem using the punctuationto seperate clues.For instance, you could take WWWH to mean that there are only cold waters in the location. So start at the word cold all they way down in the last stanza. But since there’s no comma after halt, so there’s still more to do with this clue. So if you start at cold and take it in the canyon down, you run into the word wood. The clue tells you that it’s a canyon, so Wood Canyon. Not far, there a couple words in the poem that can mean not far, warm and nigh. But too far to walk. It seems like you’re looking for a mode of transportation other than walking that’s in the poem. How about paddle? Put in below the home of Brown. The word place could describe that line. Put in (place) and place can also mean home and the text color is brown. That’s as far as I’ve got with it. But my thinking is maybe if you can find all the right words, maybe you can manipulate or combine them somehow to give you a message or location. The last line of the poem, I give you title to the gold. That could be taken two ways. It could mean he gives you ownership to the gold. But it could also mean that once you get there you will have the name of the location.

      • At least once a year could mean every day. The whole year.
        More than one can mean every…all.
        I might be wrong. You also. We could be right though.

  65. E.C. Carrying the conversation here to O&E from the HOB thread of 4/17/20 … and thinking on your word & letter scrutinizing … I offer these two thoughts:

    Did FF use the ‘flutter-by’ example (pg 147) to bring focus to other double-word examples …. Like pine-apple, two for a nickel (pg 33), or pine-apple up-side-down and straw-berry short-cake, (pg 38)?

    And the first letters of stanza one are AAIA… perhaps the coincidence of the first line being followed by first letters AIA entertained FF enough for him to make his comment about being an architect. AIA is a trademark, the kind of regulatory law FF likes to break.

    RT, random thoughts. OS2

    • Those may be kinda random thoughts. When you said “two for a nickel”, you
      reminded me of a radio/TV ad I used to hear about 1960, for some kind of drink
      mix (I think it was powdery, similar to Kool-aid). The ad sang “Sonny Boy, Sonny Boy, two for a nickel, boy oh boy . . .” Well, this may also be kinda random, but
      since “Sonny” sounds like sunny, there may be a thin thread of connection as a
      hint (think sunny day). As always, IMO.

      • uh T.A. …. maybe I didn’t make my point. How do the two words ‘sunny day’ relate to the Chase? Is it in TTOTC as a single word, sunnyday?

        I hope it stays as I wrote it… spell check keeps trying to make it two words.

        • Some places in the mountains got measured at high noon with the sun’s angle in the sky and a watch. It was probably easier to measure on a sunny day!

          • Thanks Brian… I guess this is a case of people talking across each other. Maybe my word ‘random’ invited it. I dunno. E.C. had been pairing poem words with TTOTC text content on the HOB thread, & I put forth a thought I hadn’t seen mentioned before. FF’s butterfly comment has been associated with anagrams, but maybe it had a different purpose. Doublewords. Small things matter.

          • Oh sorry wrong threads. I started reading the poem backwards and tried the Annagrams, I’m thinking later of working on which foot is predominant for painting.

          • Brian u, I’ve done the same thing. It usually happens when I click on my mouse without looking. I’ve learned to pay closer attention since then.

  66. Was recently looking at changes & what not for current or upcoming events.

    There was a scheduled protest for whatever & everyone did it while staying in their vehicles. So why aren’t drive in theaters open?

    There was a parade of vehicles driving by the hospital to show them appreciation & support. But some gas stations are closed. A nearby gas station which still does full service is thriving right now.

    The Okc memorial marathon has been postponed til October. But the news just stated August. One other event that’s always going on in multiple locations around okc is the relay for life.

    Yup. I’d rather walk for that one. If you’re not familiar with it, I highly recommend you look…


  67. Hi, folks!

    I thought I’d share the webcam resources I generally use for assessing when the snows are melted enough for BOTG season to begin. These are just my general go-to’s, but there are plenty more depending on where you are looking, especially traffic cams and park cams. Although I’ve searched at many different elevations within Forrest’s stated limits, these all hover around the upper limits, so I think that they can be considered pretty reliable for most search areas in the Rockies. (Also, please keep in mind that the snows stay piled high in the shady woods much later in the season than the open roads and high plains!)

    New Mexico:
    I prefer the webcam for Bobcat Pass (elevation 9,820 ft.). Click on “Cameras & DMS” at the top of the map and then click “view camera list”. Bobcat Pass should be the first one on the list that shows up.

    Colorado has a wide number of live cameras on this site. I usually like the cameras around Vail Pass (elevation 10,666 ft.), but pay attention to what the snow looks like in the trees!

    I’ve found this camera at Granite Pass (elevation 9,033 ft.) to be pretty reliable. Just keep in mind that this is a good 1,000 feet lower than the upper elevation limits. Pay attention to the mountains in the background if you are planning on going to higher spots, and keep in mind that those peaks are still lower than 10,200 ft.



    I’m giving two links for Montana. The first are the state highway cameras, but most of these are at pretty low elevations. For high elevations, the Glacier National Park cameras are better. Currently, the webcam at Agpar Mountain looking southeast is probably the best (Logan Pass is good too, but those are presently down); the elevation of the camera is only 5,235 ft., but the view of the 9,376 Mt. Saint Nicolaus in the background is useful. And since Mt. Saint Nicolaus is close to the northern extremity of the entire search area, if that mountain’s bare of snow you would probably be good to go pretty much anywhere!

    Well, I hope that this information is helpful to at least some of you. Let me know if you know of better resources than those I have shared. And it should go without saying right now, but I’ll say it just to be clear: COVID-19 is still a thing right now, so please be conscious of that and don’t go barreling off into small mountain communities or closed parks before we get the green light on that whole side of things. Thanks!

  68. Cannot recall whose artwork it was I saw the other night, but the artist had painted the same place multiple times. No two paintings looked the same.

    How I look now is nowhere close to what I looked like yesterday, a few years, or twenty years ago.

    The only constant is what people call me.

  69. eaglesabound – In July 2016, you posted this related to the mob assertion on “backward bicycle”:

    The original context came from “Featured Questions” at MW:

    I must agree with you. There is another video from before this time that better articulates his point of adapting, but fully within the context of the poem theme (in my opinion), including the origin of his getting back in the box allusion (this is awesome), blueprint, and ultimately a strong linkage to Forrest’s new dog, WIllie.

  70. The map in TFTW was created by a company called Benchmark . Not long after the book came out Benchmark offered poster sized versions of the map. I believe they charged $100 for them.
    Forrest signed a few and we gave them away as prizes. But then they ran out. I thought that was it…the large maps were done.

    Then Katya started making Fennboree maps…and selling them…They were also poster sized maps sanctioned by Forrest…
    Then she ran out…and again, I thought that was it…

    But Chip, a searcher just pointed out that Benchmark is selling large versions of the map again…Two different sizes. The maps don’t look exactly the same as the originals…so I don’t know if they are the same map that was in the book or not..

    You can judge for yourself…

      • Amaxing. This is interesting to me since the declination was suggestive of a specific solve.

        • Additionally the Agencies/tribal under public lands have been removed including their respective coloring. Of those I feel that declination was the more important feature.

          Nicholas, I find it interesting that I watched the Sorcerer’s Stone last night with my kids. Otherwise I would not have recognized the name.

    It’s a day to plant a tree, maybe a Forest.
    Brave and in the wood takes on a new meeting playing in the dirt.

  72. Wouldnt it be funny if the gold, gems and all in the chest were made cheap metal and glass. You hand it to Forrest and he pays you out. Even the bracelet beads could be cheap Silicone, funny. Makes you wonder if that is part of the game.

  73. Testing…123

    Uranus, this is Pluto, Can you hear me?
    Pluto, this is Uranus, you’re breaking up.

    Pluto, we’ve been in a wreck, summer hurt.
    Rectum my ash, ya dam near killed ’em!

    Pluto, send more meds and suction cups!
    Uranus, you are entering a vacuum at the speed of light! EJECT! I repeat, EJECT!

    And now back to our irregularly scheduled program….

  74. BigOnus and ByGeaorge, I think if laughter is part of the chase, you two have it figured out… lol

    What if there really was a big vacuum in space? It sure would make housework a lot easier.

  75. By George I think you’ve got it!

    There is something poetic about hor in church every Saturday night. I wonder if that humor is intentional or the joker playing his card.

    I rode a bike backwards yesterday and it spelled pig instead of go in peace. I prefer to gip I think. But who doesn’t like bacon?

    Hi Forrest! Hope you are well. Would love a scrapbook if you have time.

    Dal, you were magnificent in Candy’s show. Loved it!

    Prayers to all for health and healing in these very difficult times. Find a reason to smile if you can.

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