Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Six


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554 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Ninety Six

  1. Truly, Dal, you and the other searchers amaze me. You never give up. You just keep on going, searching, living. I ALWAYS thought (and still do) that the treasure is in a place where Forest bathed which might just be dried up in 100 years. After all, he put his bio in a sealed glass jar to make sure it could withstand water. I think he just clunked it down into the water and let it land wherever it did.

    • Margie G.! Geeees, Marge, you are so observant IMHO, I have to totally agree with your statements, ‘I ALWAYS thought (and still do) that the treasure is in a place where Forest bathed” your statement has such keen insight, but it cannot just stop there, at bathed, it seems to imply much more than getting clean?
      If you would have completed the thought of where Forrest bathed and concluded that perhaps he was “baptized there, at his special place” I would say the poem might have the Riddle solved, or at least this first clue “Where warm waters halt”,

      I feel many searchers and especially critical thinkers, journalist etc all “feel like” there is a message written/spoken in the lines that each metaphor-like WWWH and each of ff’s “repurposed expression” points you to begin questioning things, changing your views and opinions of life, breaking free from your current lifestyle because you realize it’s taking you nowhere, suddenly being grateful for what you have, the life, the blessing and thanks for little gifts of natures beauty all around every day, the answers he already knows, even if you are tired and weak these blessing are there everyday.

      I think SC Book 241 reveals something about those kinds of places, Margie what do you think?


      • This thought seems Umbilical to the special place in my imagination, how was his description of HIS CHURCH IN THE MOUNTAINS? Who is on the last page of his Book and what did he believe?


      • IMO, there is no hidden message in the poem or special meaning. I remember Forrest even saying so. The poem is only a map to the treasure period. A map with directions and clues to help find the treasure chest.
        If you are looking for a special meaning or message you are missing the point of the poem. IMHO. He even says follow the clues precisely to find the treasure. Good luck.

        • Manowar,
          Thank you for these words. I agree that the clues in the poem should be married to a map without subterfuge. You must accept that the Thrill to some is to manipulate the poem looking for even greater meanings. BTW, nothing has proven their line of thinking incorrect. I frequently find myself looking at a painting and then evaluating the individual brush strokes to find a hidden secret. It may seem silly to some, but think of Fenn and the waterfall, or Fenn and his thumb. It is simply part of being human and does not detract from a searchers enjoyment of the Thrill. In fact, it likely enhances it. I agree that these searchers may not have a chance at finding the chest, but they have found a treasure in thought. And, if their line of thinking gets them away from their texting machines and into the Rockies, then they would have found an even greater treasure.
          Anyway, as a fellow pragmatist, I would like your opinion. Like you, I believe that marrying the poem to a map is the only way to the chest. I was so confident, I put BOTG in April (Don’t worry, I wore my mask and gloves). I was guided by the Fenn quote “If you know precisely where it is, you can probably retrieve it in any weather.” Upon my arrival, I found the snow thick, the rocks slick, and a search area that was steeper than portrayed in Google Earth’s 3D mode. I simply could not certify the area as a place where an 80 yo could safely traverse twice. Furthermore, I could not justify that my search area, even on a perfect summer’s day, would satisfy the quote, “the treasure is where an elderly man put it, so I suppose your kids would be in a safe place.” Don’t get me wrong, it is not a dangerous place, just not entirely safe in that a misstep would result in a long hike that might approach your definition of “to far to walk”.
          So, would you go back with a buddy and take a few risks to satisfy the itch, or look for a new search area?

          • SaddleSaur,

            Well said. I agree with everything you wrote. I would go back for sure with that buddy to comb over the area. There maybe a different way in there. Good Luck.

  2. Margie- That’s like asking how deep is a hole. If that is the case it’s def. buried by now!

    • I hope forrest left a mirror in the chest so I can see my teeth when i’m brushing them! lol

      • Find the box you can get new teeth from the dentist, that’s my plan…
        Might be a bit ritzy to use polished gold mirror.

    • Ann, thanks! I sure did!

      I ordered a whole tub of it from Oriental Trading and can’t wait to get it. Brings back those childhood memories of the final school bell ring of the day as I skip my way home.

  3. Has Forrest ever mentioned anymore about his clue that the treasure was above 7-5,000 feet. It’s almost like he was about to say 7,000 feet, then he changed it to 5,000 feet. This could be quite significant in locating the treasure, dependent upon elevation.

    It almost seemed intentional… maybe more like obvious. After all, he was looking at a notecard, how could he make a mistake like this?

      • .
        Thanks Susan. That clip is from 2013, and the Reporter starts out by saying “when f82 year old forrest forest found out he was dying from cancer about three years ago.”

        Just reminds us to be careful about how things get twisted around even by reporters

    • Suzy_S – I’ve never heard him say anything more about this television appearance before. He may have been starting to say “seven thousand” or he may have been starting to say “several” or something else like that. Interesting to think about though.

      • Forrest’s mention of seven just drives me crazy… Several times crazy!

        I just wish Forrest could make it easier and put an X on the map, or maybe something that looks like an X.

  4. Where is the audible or direct statement from Mr Fenn that the chest is NOT under water?


    • a “keyword” does not necessarily have to yield up the WWWH, it could instead yield the Canyon or HOB or Creek, or “me all” or “gold” etc….

      • 1Q) My previous 6 questions were asked shortly before last year’s February 27th segment of the Today Show. Reporting on your extraordinary treasure hunt, it resulted in an explosion of new seekers from all across the world. What are some of your thoughts about the flurry of activity over the past year? Did the excitement towards the Chase surprise you in any way? Does it make you think the chest might be found earlier than first thought?

        It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, *but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key.* The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.

        ~ *but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key.*
        I don’t see anything that relates to WWsH, but more about the treasure might be found earlier than expected. Might that imply the *entire” poem of its completed solve?
        Does the word have anything to do with a clue or clues reference? Or could it be how a searcher is supposed to proceed? {what they need to do while on site}

        It’s still is interesting to me that fenn used “tight focus” to describe; what might be an idea of we utilize such a word.
        Plan and Observe comes to mind.

        • I assumed right away that Forrest was saying that somebody knows how to solve the puzzle in the poem; the rest is just a matter of time.

          The hint that there is a key word never helped the person who already figured that out.

          • It helped them indeed in my opinion. Several people have been helped quite a bit by that, including me in my opinion. However, it takes more than what that shows you to get your hands on the treasure chest I think.

            For me, I think I discovered several keywords and I know what they all mean except one. I didn’t bother with the last one because I already know what it means. Now think about the sentence. “…tight focus on a word that is key”. He told us that he ********* doesn’t use ****** ***********. So then what is the word that few are in tight focus on?

            You’re welcome. Happy hunting, or should I say fly fishing?

          • Right Muset, all it does is give confidence to the searcher who already knew the answer. IMO, it’s key because of all the different scenarios it unlocks.

  5. Does anyone know when the national parks will be opening in the search states?

    • Eaglesabound – Not yet. Judging from how they closed down, each park seems to be operating autonomously so some may open before others. It looks like the more popular parks that receive high numbers of visitors like Yellowstone and Rocky Mountain will stay closed longer.

      Here’s the official announcement posted on all the NP websites:

      The National Park Service is modifying its operations on a park-by-park basis in accordance with the latest guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and state and local public health authorities. While most facilities and events are closed or canceled, outdoor spaces in some parks remain accessible to the public. Before visiting, please check with individual parks regarding changes to park operations. If you choose to visit a national park, please ensure that you follow CDC and state and local guidelines to prevent the spread of infectious diseases and practice Leave No Trace principles. Updates about the NPS response, including safety information, are posted on http://www.nps.gov/coronavirus.

      • “accordance with the latest guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and state and local public health authorities”

        interpretation of above: “one can never be blamed if one is always following another”, then again the view never changes…

        socialist, communist, capitalist… does it matter what it is called, if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there… to tell the sheep what to do next… did it really fall?

        imagine if every commercial you see on TV, every statement you hear from a government agency, every word written from a CEO; was vetted by a lawyer first….

        oh wait, we don’t have to imagine do we.

        imagine if everyone in a country was a lawyer, (or guided by one)… would a tree ever fall?

        no it would not, not because trees would be somehow engineered in a better way, it would because there wouldn’t be any trees.

        oops, this should be on the dal’s cynical page 🙂 Dal; new idea for a page.

        • Writis – I think the NP people are just trying to stay ahead of a situation that has been changing at a pretty fast clip. I’m kind of glad that they are differing to the organization that specializes in disease matters to make the call on disease matters. They’re just people trying to figure things out as they go along, like all of us.

          • CDC is very good at tracking what has happened,

            (and they do a very good job of that)

            they however are not a good source for what will happen… no one ever is. (no matter how well heeled or backed they maybe )

            It looks like actual openings will be sooner than we think as people are already getting board of this round of the media circus and are not clicking on the stories anymore… so suddenly like magic…. a torrent of openings while that is the new click deJour… and the future unfolds to the click of masses.

            I am telling you Dal, you need a cynical page 🙂

          • It wouldn’t be so bad(so to speak) if there was one than one ring leader. Or possibly some side show stuff. Glad the news doesn’t investigate good stuff like treasure. Itd get ruined probably.

  6. If the chest isn’t awakening to the tromp of boots this year, is it because of parks being closed or f saying folks should wait until 1 June to resume their search? The ermines have been turning back into weasels, and the bears have been venturing, not just peeking, out, regardless, sublimely ignorant to the mass hysteria gripping our species.

    Early reports are that neither ermine/weasels nor bears are wearing safety masks nor social distancing. Damn nature!

    • Perhaps the artifacts…patiently listen for the clomp of a boot.
      “Have flashlight, will travel”

  7. I was sitting watching the weather report on tv – when I noticed that they show a 3 d weather map so I started taking pic – and I came out with a real good 3d pic of my state and imo you will not find a map like this one

  8. One Horse land and Cattle Co.

    I have looked here on HoD but didn’t find to much detail, but can someone tell me where or how Mr Forrest Fenn came up with this name. Thank you in advance

  9. There is so much to discuss. But let’s start at the beginning of the poem, “As I have gone alone in there”.

    From p63, Looking For Lewis and Clark, first complete paragraph:

    “I won’t dwell further on that because I’m grateful that the space between fact and fiction is often blurred by the passage of time, except to say that we finally loosened our grip on the reins and the horses took us to a dirt road. We were 50 miles from where we started and Donnie was in good spirits again, and started talking coherently. He’s gone now, but I still think about him a lot. At the time, we were both important to ourselves in our own way, and for the same reasons, but no one will judge us anymore when I’m gone too.”

    Here we have “gone” in close proximity of the word “reins” (“rein” is colloquial German for “in there”), while “gone” is in context of Forrest now being “alone”. German “rein” also stems from the Ancient Greek word “krī́nō”, to “judge”. This pattern appears statistically significant as a match.

    Forrest is fond of using the word “buck”, calls out “thunderstorms” and “porcupine” (the male is a buck) within the next paragraph, and has a whole chapter on “Stout Hearted Men”. He mentions his “Purple Heart”, and repeats the word “heart” several more times in the book (heart = 5 in total, hearted = 1 + chapter title, heartbeat = 1). The word “hart” means “buck”. So does “stag”. Going stag, like as a bachelor, means going alone.

    Hartville, WY is in a place with an aha moment, and has some striking history that seems important, while its neighboring “Sunrise” is a smile in Spanish. Looking for a needle in a haystack? You have a range of options here in Goshen County. While the county is named after the magic of gypsies and perhaps a nod to Kasir, the largest city is Torrington, coming from “Tor-ridge” or “Tor”, Thor. The Guernsey reference doesn’t hurt. Also nearby is what I have become; I’ve done it tired and now I’m lusk.

    • Oh, he also includes Hartford in the cities he’s flying over when he has his aha epiphany.

    • E.C.Waters I 1000% agree with you about how he uses certain words. I have a very strong feeling about how he came across the name as well as how the name describes HOB And not only that it describes WWWH. Thank you for the word confirmation

      • I once agreed with someone only 666%. It was a very frightening experience — compared to agreeing only 42% –, but more interesting.
        As always, IMO.

    • Let’s skip over a few things and onto something that’s on everyone’s mind, “Begin it where warm waters halt”.

      On p6, a section of the book that has no title but has several words for Eric Sloane, we find this:

      ” Then all of a sudden I started getting bald, just a little at first it wasn’t a big deal.
      I remembered that the same thing happened President Eisenhower and he explained it was because his brains were pushing his hair out. I figured the same thing must be happening me, so I felt all right with it. And then my hair turned grey – okay, white – but that problem was easily solved by just telling people was dyeing it and they never knew the difference.
      It doesn’t matter much to me if I get old, especially since I’m already there. Actually, the only thing about me that’s old is my body. My mind stays at about thirteen. To help my self-image I take showers only at night so I can’t see my age as much. When my wife built our house, she put a skylight in my bathroom flat above the shower. It was a design deficiency but she didn’t have stand there and see so she didn’t care.”

      For the moment, ignore the references to “bald” (actually bold), “old”, “grey” and “white”. Instead, look closely at “Eisenhower”, which means “iron hewer”, one who works with iron. Couple this with Forrest’s penchant to discuss the rain, or his shower in the next paragraph, not just in the book but also in scrapbooks. In fact, “shower” (or its synonym) is mentioned in no less than SB169, SB167, SB116, SB99.5, and SB84, where the latter describes Mike Kammerer’s huge 300 sq-feet shower.

      Here’s an article that made me “smile” (“sonrisa”) about a place where a shower has sat halted and aging for quite a while:

      • E.C., I was going to reply to your ‘Badger’ on another thread, but here may be better: I thought Black & white blazes or a dachsund name Tusuque seems too remote. Neither are in TTOTC.

        A preface is a very good place to begin, don’t you agree?

        Accolades are a hug around the neck, like laurel leaves that once circled the heads of Olympian winner’s, or now encircle medals of hero’s. Even balding ones. And If that doesn’t stir your spirit, maybe you need to take another turn.

        Incidentally, not Chase related, did you know that Eisenhower gave the eulogy for Einstein? Both did the things they were attributed to.

        Do you hear Doris Day singing …. A bushel and a peck and a ……… ?

    • Thank you for the link, Dal. I enjoyed the bit of history told. Thank you, Cynthia and Mr. Fenn. Looking forward to the next one.

    • Nice job Cynthia! I like your thinking on the clues.

      But what really caught my attention was how in the world that pile of “dirt” was there for as long as it was! There is no way in @#$! I would ever let that happen for even 5 minutes! Is Forrest pulling our leg? LOL!

      • My sense is that Forrest is squeezing in stories as framing for his hinting synonyms and allusions. Related to TTOTC, “dirt” is used in a couple of contexts, e.g. being called a name (e.g. Caliph to dirt), and something being “dirty” (like a nameplate, or splashing through a pothole filled with muddy water).

        There is a word that means dirt, “hore”, that later stems into the other derogatory word and meaning as comparable. And there is a word that means “gray” or “old”, “hoar”. These are potential statistical matches.

        “Dirty” also means “tarnish”, and potentially “patina” and “rust”, whereas iron seems a rather important topic.

        • “Fenn” from Old English also means “dirt”.

          “I figured that if it weren’t for my name I wouldn’t have anything at all.” (p23)

    • Can’t imagine how difficult this chase would be if we didn’t have your website Dal. Lol, you may not have any idea where the chest is, but this website has given the opportunity for thousands of searchers to have one. If you don’t find it, you certainly had a part in it for the one that does.

      • I wonder, more or less difficult? Is it all too much for one to block out the noise? I suppose it matters who you are, but it matters not. It sure is fun. g

    • That was awesome Cynthia great job and thank you for the Taos fix 🙂 I look forward to the rest… Ciao Forrest 🙂

      • I watched this earlier in the week, really good video, about a really weird part of history.

    • Great work, Cynthia! I just watched the first 2 videos in the series and am looking forward to seeing more.

      I distinctly remember that same, exact “Bull of the Woods” sign below the Wheeler Peak trailhead catching my eye too! Not only for “in the wood”, but I remember Forrest talking about his enjoyment of the comic series of the same name (it’s on this site somewhere; but I can’t seem to find it again just now).

      Anyways, keep up the good work!

  10. **Disclaimers: The information in the link I am providing below was not compiled by me, nor do I have any idea who they are!…..I have a very good AV provider and they gave the site a safe rating or I would not have clicked on it!

    I do not know if this is a work in progress or if the owner has quit updating it. It starts in 2010 and the last entry I see is December 2018. I came across it a few days ago and have not vetted it completely…..but, dam, somebody put a LOT of work into it.

    Some of you may find it interesting. I would suggest that all peeps new to the search utilize it and/or TarryScant…..

    (consider my good deed for the year….done!) 🙂


  11. I was shore fishing with my son the other day and a fish rose just in front of him within reach of his cast. He was was quick, and placed his next ten feet to the left of the rings. Nice, I told him. He had remembered what I had mentioned before. Sometimes you don’t cast where you saw the action. You cast where you think it was going. We ended up getting skunked. It was warm, glassy calm, reflecting bluebird skies. I perfect day. g

    • I think about those words every day! Mayday! Mayday! Then I turn the channel in hopes of hope.

      Speaking of hope, did y’all see what they did in Philly yesterday after it got dark out? They had 136 drones lit up in the sky, creating a wonderland tribute to our frontline workers! It was AMAZING!!

      They created many different designs, and at the end went from LOVE 2 HOPE! Kinda like the Chase if ya ask me. Forrest you sly dog, did you inspire PHILADELPHIA with this message? Probably sew.


      • We have a Corona day today for mayday in South Dakota. Drones or planes, some sort of aerial surveillance tonight to coincide with lighting effects from the domiciles in select village zones.

  12. Started readin this trapping note book. Not certain on how this affects my search, except this guy and his buddies went thru my search area looking for buffaloe. At least they knew how to spell then.

    • Brian U,

      I took a gander at some OR trappings yesterday. The language spoken back in those days sure seemed like that of poetry in motion.

      Although it was pretty much just the beginning and end of the book, man, it was good! Did you know SAW is WAS spelled backwards? The use of “was” in the book WAS interesting. Not that it helps, but clever if nothing else.


      • You should try reading the book “Crow Killer” the saga of liver eating Jeremiah Johnson.

        • Travis brown,

          The key word is “try”. LOL..this is crazy! At some point we should have consumed and absorbed enough information to make a calculated guess.

          Well, so far, I’m still guessing…but my sponge is full…I’d ring it out but then I’d have to start all over again. But who doesn’t like Jeremiah Johnson? Didn’t he wear a bear fur his long winters?

          Yeah…good old JJ…

          • Who knows, if world changes more maybe furs will be back in style. Probably safer in the woods anyhow;

        • Travis Brown,

          Mountain man of the West.. Good Old Liver Eating Johnson.

          I have tu-tu up-chuckle if this doesn’t stop, spinning!

          Might have to double my meds, soon!

          I got nothin…


          • Then perhaps, just for a moment, consider diverting to the author’s name, Osborne Russell, and into what these words simplify:
            – Osborne – os = bear, borne = god… a bear god… ok…
            – Russell – the color red

            Do we see these words anywhere else, or their synonyms, or their allusions? Take for example the Finnish version of a bear god, “oksi”…. Since that word was unmentionable for them, they used other words to talk around it. Let’s see… do we have any? Oxymoronish? Occidental? Oxygen?

            Or how about any shade of red, like rust or ocher or fawn for example?

            This method can be applied to many many words and phrases in his book. Totem Cafe Caper for example… cafe is brown, caper is a lark, totum means whole. How deep is a whole? Wouldn’t want to brag (SB126, SB228) or boast (p4) if the glory (SB100) shows up. Oh, “Glory Hole” is a place in Sunrise, WY, dug by a company named Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. Who owned this? Rockefeller. Has Forrest ever mentioned any Rockefeller? Why yes, SB163 even links this back to a Russell. Has he ever mentioned Sunrise, WY? Yes, specifically in an answer about ocher on MW. And maybe when he uses the word “smile” since “sonrisa” means “smile” in Spanish. So…

            How about now? Still got nothing? Or is this just too complicated to wrap one’s head around for solving a million buck puzzle?

          • E C Waters,

            I’m kinda lookin around because I highly doubt that your post is directed at me. Yes, I end some of my posts with “I got nothin” because I’m just being geekerly silly.

            I find it hard to add to so much of what is being discussed, because if you learn from the best then you can be the best…from listening.

            I actually went to a few SB”s earlier and without reading anything below/comments, I was going to break down a few on exactly what I see, hear, and feel. I got started on it and decided to not bother. I see reflective sunglasses, background staging, totem poles, and the cross that has the sliding tops. I see so much in that thing its not funny! And I mean rock solid reflections!

            And how about SB 49? The Cloves? Those pictures speak loudly. Big chuckle with the palm pic. . But you can’t just take the pics at face value. There’s a story being told, within a story JUST within the pictures…IMO. Then There’s the story. Do yanna see stuoid? Look in the mirror! I’M THERE!!!

            Forrest said to keep it simple…to simplify.
            Thus, bingo! Yeah right. What’s a little kid do when he’s told he can’t? He don’t listen. So ya better start looking at that poem at different angles and ways. IMO.

            Now with that said, how many people are we supposed to listen to on these blogs? None. So I am going to begin reading my books again and continue to do my best.

            And on a personal note, even if I could figure out a good solve (which I haven’t), I’m going nowhere until I can get back to work and get going on some bills. Tax man cometh, wife taketh, Corora taketh…seems like everybody commeth but me.

            But thank for the input. Ya lost me at HELLO???


          • And honestly, just reading your breakdown of Osborne Russell amazes me to no end! OS = oh shi* in that format. Ir the wizard of OS, as a play on words. Am I the only one that didn’t know that? I sure hope not because I’m seriously playing from behind the 8 ball.

            It’s been fun but there’s so much to absorb and devour. It takes time to figure out what frequency Forrest is on…and which meld he’s working on! So much chaos.

            The tree’s shakin boss, the tree’s ashakin.

          • Sounds like your bushes were Russelled in the end there ByGeorge.

            Chasing f is harder than chasing the gold. You have the intelligence, skills, knowledge of a 200 year old in the mind of a 7 year old. Everyone acts all grown up and serious, but he is running circles around everyone, giggling, having fun!

            Until you work that out you have nothin’ and when you do work that out, you wish you had nothing.

            Has me fleeshaking at times.


          • ECW,

            Thanks for clearing up your inaccurate breakdown.

            Mine was very accurate…BRUH

    • I think the Journal Of A Trapper probably sets a baseline year for our searches’ historical references, assuming the general area being southern Montana and/or northern Wyoming. The Journal was started in 1834 and finished in 1843, so probably that is how far back we should research.

      People who search in Colorado or New Mexico are probably struggling to find any nuggets of wisdom at all in that journal, maybe.

      • Its funny you should end that with maybe, Muset. When processing logic it is clear that we are talking about a beginning and an end and vice versa. Everything is joined in the middle, including binary etc, there does not have to be an alchemy of 3 to have a middle. Each line in the poem does this and most searchers are focused on each end of the sentence. TTOTC is mainly focused on TX, NM and YS. Logic would tell us to look in the middle. Ruling out TX leaves us with the binary option. Dead centre would make sense.

        “Where the lines cross”, is probably a reference to fishing lines, so that has to be put on the back burner for now., although looking at the power of 2, one might think that the joke has another meaning. (bring back TX?)

        Logic would also tell us the instruction or map is in the middle of the poem/lines of the poem or between the lines.

        Logic tells us that the line endings are introduction’s and abolition’s of events and times that link by association. These associations vary because logic tells us ff had to make them fit and many levels, These blend one into the other, as one leaves the other arrives, but the useful information will be gleaned from the from the middle information that these events represent. Hints tell us what these are, if you look in the middle of the hints, what connects them.

        Logic tells me this will lead us to the treasure.

        Then we have chaos. My money is on chaos. If we use our imagination we might see that the location of the winners throne in all this is represented by three perfect score cards on dancing with the stars. It might be in the middle of something and if we look at WWWH, that might be in the middle of something. That puts them each in there own middle and if we put the two middles together, what do we have? A middle, but lets not go there.

        Sorry for the ramble.


    • Wow! What a fantastic visual recreation of those chapters and an interesting analysis.

      I agree with your summary which I will try and paraphrase– “enjoy this life now”

      I look forward to the final movie with all the pieces put together and a shiny ending.

    • Presented very well! Thought provoking! Forrest is just WOW!
      History being told ….very nice!
      Thanks Matt!

    • Once again, “Smells” is proving that I barely scratch the surface while reading. Glad this isn’t a treasure hunt or sumthin, I’d be last to figure it out. Really good presentation and very well put together

    • My gosh, Matt. The video you put together is outstanding and it ran several emotions for me in the story you told. Definitely thought provoking.

    • Wow,that was great. I passed it up earlier, glad I went back and saw that.

    • This was the first of Matt’s videos that I have watched. I have got to say, I was greatly impressed with, not only the professional quality of the video production that he put together, but with the amount of thoughtfulness that went into his narration and general analysis of Forrest Fenn’s writings. Very well done! Bravo!

  13. Keymaker: There’s a building. Inside this building there’s a level where no elevator can go, and no stair can reach. This level is filled with doors. These doors lead to many places, hidden places, but one door is special. One door leads to the Source.

    FF indeed is a wily fox.

  14. Has there ever been conversation about the buffalo Hyde that is just over Forrest’s shoulder on the main page of HoD, I have a sneaky suspicion that Buffalo Hyde has a great bit of information pertaining to this chase. Just putting it out there, Any thoughts or suggestions to what anyone might know about it.

  15. Google ” Fenn collection splendid heritage”

    His other artifacts there are worth looking at too.

    The site also has three other collections from three different collectors that are wonderfull too.

    The bio on one of the other collectors seems to have known Greg Perino from way back!

      • Hi Travis – I read a Smithsonian site that said that Sioux women painted and wore robes, featuring geometric patterns (even though Forrest’s is identified as a “Man’s” on his collection site). Sioux men painted and wore robes that depicted events and battle scenes.

        Got this from Wiki:

        The “Feathered Sun” is a reoccurring motif of stylized feathers in several concentric circles. It visually connects a feather warbonnet to the sun.

        Coincidentally, or not, I just re-watched “Dances with Wolves”, where I happened to notice three scenes with similar robes featured. Two were on inside teepee walls, and one was on the back of Wind in His Hair’s horse, as he is yelling his friendship cry to Dances with Wolves from the high bluff. Maybe his horse was a mare?

        Love that movie…

        • I got to meet alot of people from that movie as well as the dog. Lol s.dakota is a small place.

          • Brian u – Cool! I got to meet the author of the book, Michael Blake, here in Sun Valley, before he passed from cancer. Did you know he lived in his car in Los Angeles, when he wrote it? He inscribed my new copy of the book:

            “Keep dancing!”

            Good on Kevin Costner to make such a great movie from the book. I still watch him in the “Yellowstone” series.

          • I didn’t know of the writer. I cut wood for a Costner business venture once. I learned alot living on the hills and prarie though, that helps treasure hunting alot. There’s a bunch of culture still left over from yesteryears.

        • Thank you Lisa for that tidbit of info. I agree one of my favorite movies and the last scene I agree brought you right into the movie.


    • Done it. That collection needs to go in the Forrest Fenn wing of the Smirhsonian, IMO. The finder might want to see that through, don’t you think? Unless f has already made arrangements.

    • Just me,

      That’s an interesting read. The 4 phases of the Navajo chiefs rug are an interesting side note to it all. Incredibe.


  16. Vincent Van Gogh said;
    “Looking at the stars always makes me dream, as simply as I dream over the black dots representing towns and villages on a map…….Why, I ask myself, shouldn’t the shining dots of the sky be as accessible as the black dots on the map……Just as we take a train to get to the Palais Garnier, we take death to reach a star. We cannot get to a star while we are alive any more than we can take the train when we are dead……To die quietly of old age would be to go there on foot.”

    In my dream, I would reach to the sky and take a star. I would look inside for the answer to tell me where to place it on the map and ask it which star to collect next. I would repeat the process until I made my own rainbow of light on the ground. Then, creating another bow in an opposing direction, but eventually joining the first at the other end, making a kind of love heart. This would honor Vincent by lighting up those black dots, making them shine and creating a path to the treasure.

    When Forrest travels to the stars, he will sit on that crescent moon and invite Vincent to sit beside him. Stroking his dove, he will ask the great artist to look down at the Rockies. There will be thousands of camp fires lit by searchers looking for the true treasure. “Vincent, I painted those stars for you! The love heart in the middle is by someone who believes we are all connected and wanted to project his love to the world and honour us both at the same time”.

    Sorry Forrest if this is ripping up the rule book, but just because we learn your path does not mean we are forced to use it. The end of your telling of futures past has yet to be written. Now where do we begin…..


    See you on the other side!

      • Great lyrics and message. Seems to have a lot intertwined with the Chase. In that respect, it’s kind of sad though.

          • Kind of breaks a person’s heart… just like EC was talking about on this page also. George Straight’s “I Cross My Heart” and Neil Young’s “Heart of Gold” also comes to mind.

            Sometimes we just can’t travel to those emotional places that seem the hardest to find. If I remember right, someone else said that it’s a place on the edge where the cautious and faint of heart fear to go.

          • Forrest certainly put his heart into the chase Suzy_S, thats for sure.

            Yes, its true about the edge. If your heart doesn’t flutter with fear, then your dreams are merely thoughts.

  17. BigO,

    When I read those words, I try to step into the shoes of the artist. Wether it be a painter, musician, poet, or the many more.

    When I look at his words of his immaculate dreams, and take yourself there, and just try to imagine where he was and whom he talker to is unfathomable! I remember the “Starry Nights” but the song DM, no. You talk about an excellently sang song, MAN can that strike a nerve.

    And to put those words to the paintings with the melody, outstanding genius on both ends. Impressive.


    • Every star is a painter, musician, poet and more. Some are more of one than the other and all have individual character. That is what makes them so beautiful.

      I too close my eyes and feel myself as the artist. I imagine being ff flying above the clouds at night and becoming one of those stars. A tear of wonder and joy filling his eye and it helps me understand myself. To be all alone in the middle of darkness and see the stars shining through is something many people will never experience. A realisation dawns and we begin to understand….. and dream those endless fantasies!

    • Not just flying through the night sky. ff’s thinking was shaped by paintings too. Looking at the little strokes of chaos that seemed to make no sense until he stood back and saw the bigger picture, simplifying its meaning. All those tiny licks of paint were connected and made a single whole. They all have their own part to play, but each of those only serves the greater good. The painting then becomes part of a gallery and the gallery a town………eventually the whole universe is one giant creation by an artist unknown. One thing is for certain though, we are all related, and by all I do not mean just people, I mean everything.

      This helped spawn his idea for The Chase.


      • BigO,

        That totally makes sense. I like studying pictures of Forrest. There’s much more than meets the eye. And once you start to ponder just who is this guy is then you just study his eyes even more.

        It makes sense. We’re all connected through one portrait. We’re merely but a stroke of the brush.


        • I see a lot ByGeorge, whenever I look at things. I love studying paintings and pictures, I learn a lot.

          Yes, I began looking through ff’s eyes from the moment I picked up the poem. I find him very interesting. He seems to have a much sharper eye than I do though. Probably from the days of him being an eagle in the sky. I sometimes dream I am a snake, looking, with my one good eye, for the treasure. I then turn into a split hare! Hope that eagle does not gulp me up!

        • BigO,

          Yeah, we all try get into his brain/thought process, but trying to read someone comes with time. But your eyes tell a story. I just like studying human nature…and if something makes ya go hmmmm, then it perks me ears up a bit more and think, alright, something’s not right here.

          But I’m headed out to mow. I’ll be thinking about it some more. Thanks for the chat. We lost a good one in V.V. and much too soon.


          • Stories are difficult to put into words at times. We witness many things, but our account is merely a snap in time. We do not always relay the full picture.

            I’ve always thought the loss in V.V. was merely replaced.

          • BigO,

            Some things can’t always be replaced.

            Back when I was about 25 I had a gun stolen from my home. My dad had this 12 ga. shotgun since he was a kid. It was his one and only prized possession.

            It was a tough time. I was the only one to blame. It’s kinda hard to walk through life knowing that pain is still stinging and the loss was much much more than just an old gun. It meant the world to him.

            So, yeah, somethings can be replaced or restored but some things can’t.

            Try living with that and then go ripping up even more sentimental objects 35 years later, kinda reopens old wounds…and it matters to me more than others.

            You can’t replace everything. And if there’s a such thing as being gun-shy, well multiply that by a million and there I stand.

            Thanks again for the enlightenment. I don’t remember reading V.V.’s words in my college art class, but that class was an amazing walk back in time and eye opening to say the least.


          • Its the path we all find ourselves on ByGeorge. Same story, different tale. A laborious road of life and the toll we pay.

  18. ByGeorge, I once traded away a Marlin 30 30 that my father had handed down to me. Funny how after all this time I still could just kick myself and get very sad when I think of it. I recently mentioned to him a few things I wish i had not done when I was younger. Come to find out, he is at a point in his life now where he doesn’t attach sentiment to things, only people, and has long since gotten over it. I suppose we will all get there some day. g

  19. Stay-at-home updates,
    Montana: Reopening began on April 26.
    Wyoming: No stay-at-home order.
    Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks are closed until further notice.
    Colorado: Stay-at-home order expired April 26.
    New Mexico: Emergency order extended to May 15.

    • Hello randawg. There are some parts of Colorado that have the Stay-at-home order until May 8. I live in one of those areas.

    • Wyoming — home of the free and the brave.

      New Mexico — governed by…..something that fears that.

    • does anyone know what a “mandatory 14 day indoor q”, actually looks like in practice? do they take you off a plane and straight into a tent?

      do they just shoot when you drive across the boarder?
      not sure how that would work in practice? sounds cool though.

      I would guess it means that you are to drive (if flying then no way to rent a car though) then drive someplace and stay there and not shop… but scratching my head?

      • Writis;

        For Idaho – I am not sure about any other state, When you cross over the border from Utah to Idaho, all cars are stopped. If you are entering the state from another state, you have to sign a document saying that you will go into a self quarantine at such and such an address. Will some agency check up on you – Don’t know. JDA

        • an actual road block, interesting, a highway like say I-70 or I-25, that would quickly back up to about 50/100 miles if it were normal traffic, for covid traffic — not sure?, has anyone seen a road block on a major highway for this “paper work”? how far back does it go? (sighting of recently as people around here anyway appear to be producing as much traffic as ‘normal’ more recently, as they have tired of the media hype)

        • I don’t think that is correct JDA. Our family hasn’t had any issues.

        • Tried to validate the roadblock situation – couldn’t. Just what I heard from a friend whose son is a trucker.

          Here are the published guidelines:

          COVID-19 Travel Alert

          Your health and safety are our top priority, and we are committed to providing timely and accurate information surrounding COVID-19 to assist you with safe travel decisions for Idaho and beyond.

          While we understand and appreciate the desire to travel and enjoy Idaho’s great outdoors, leisure travel to or within Idaho is restricted at this time per the Governor’s Stay Healthy Order. Per the order, individuals arriving in Idaho from another state or country are required to self-quarantine for 14 days. If an individual will be present in Idaho for fewer than 14 days, that individual must self-quarantine for the duration of their visit. All vulnerable Idahoans, and those with vulnerable individuals in the household should continue to self-quarantine. Gatherings, both public and private, should be avoided. Nonessential travel should be avoided or minimized. JDA

          • Same rules as Hawaii, JDA, although imminently more enforceable on the islands than in Idaho.

        • JDA & Writis – I have not seen or heard of any roadblocks here in Colorado (yet). I agree with Writis that trying to do so on the major interstates would really create a traffic mess.

      • Writis,

        There are so many holes in the policies no two states seem to be the same.
        As far as I can tell with the airlines… It seems you need to wear a face covering, and should you have a temperature, you are most likely going to be asked to leave. How or when they take your temperature, IDK.
        If driving, some states ask for a 14 self quarantine… depending… How they enforce it is beyond me.

        There just doesn’t seem to be a 50 / 48 state cooperation, because it seems we are no longer United, but more like little 50 independent territories.

        How I long for the old days when a situation occurred the USA showed / lead the rest of the world how we all came together.

        • Sweden seems to be the only western country that responded with a sensible coronavirus approach.

      • @writis
        I’ve been talking with my family who are all Montanans about this issue, because we were hoping to spend the summer there.

        As for Montana, It’s doubtful the state has the man power to enforce the Governor’s directive on a mandatory 14 day quarantine for travelers coming into the state. But the details specify that people renting out homes/cabins are to notify the state when folks from out of state are staying there with spot checks from authorities.

        Presently in Texas, if you fly into the state, you are met at the airport gate by state troopers who scan your ID into a data base. Before leaving the airport gate you sign federal/state documents stating the address where you will be quarantined for 14 days. In Texas they do spot check visits. If you violate the indoor quarantine and get caught it’s a felony arrest with possible $5000 fine and jail time.

        • @writis, my comments about a Texas are when flying into Dallas Fort Worth airport.

    • Grand Teton lodging is closed through 2020; not sure about campgrounds. YNP has some campgrounds open starting in June, and Mammoth cabins are also open starting in June. At the moment. We had to move our reservation at the Mammoth cabins from early May to late May, and then gave up and made one for late September.

    • Blue Angels flew over DFW area today. Thousands and thousands gathered in parking lots and front yards to watch. What a delicious sense of liberty and patriotism. No chocolate bars, though.

      • Also today over Houston this afternoon between 12:30PM and 1:00PM.

  20. Regarding those who would like to believe they are or there is a “lead searcher” or that perhaps Forrest is speaking to and for them in scrapbook posts or other communications (sans direct email responses or interviews), I was very happy to see Forrest aligns with my own sensitivity about the stupidity of such a concept.



    Apologies if this is redundant. I just watched this video for the first time.

    • E.C. – If you’re late to this one, then I’m even later because that’s the first time I watched that video via your link! And WOW, that’s an excellent one! Some really good bits of new information straight from the Forrest’s mouth in that one for sure!

      I also agree that Forrest shooting down the idea of the lead searcher was pretty sweet! 🙂

      • The talking heads where saying ” Lead searcher”
        A crazy amount! Many claiming to be it. Or who it was! Lol
        Forrest really quieted that talk way down!

        • Yea. Ridiculous. There’s no such thing as a “lead searcher”. Nothing could be further from the truth, IMO. That ship has sailed.

          • Mr Obvious just curious, What if there was a lead searcher and FF isn’t saying anything to not panic the masses?

          • Well one thing for sure, if there is a lead searcher, and he/she knows where the treasure is hidden … then they are no longer searching then are they?

        • There may well be a “lead searcher”, but there’s not a lot of benefit to be gained by discussing or
          speculating about it too much. And nobody knows
          who that lead searcher is — or was (because the
          lead may change hands). Best for all of us to focus
          more on solving and searching. As always, IMO.

          • It wouldn’t surprise me if the lead has changed hands 9 times over the life of the hunt.

          • Would it surprise you if there was no such thing as a lead searcher? If yes, re-evaluate your selected metrics.

            And no, the “9” reference wasn’t missed, just ignored because the concept of a lead searcher is ridiculous, deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd.

      • f asked for the definition of “the lead searcher” and so he responded to the stupid definition given him.
        If the definition given to him was instead “the one who was closest to solving the poem” his answer would have been much different.

        • Dejoka,

          That pretty much sums it up. I suppose to each his own but that’s the way I read his answer.. IMO


        • Nope. Both definitions are equally ridiculous, and the resulting answer is the same. “There’s no such thing as a lead searcher.” Finem fabula.

          • Arrr’ye absolutely positively positive? Because on one of your most recent posts(above) you mixed things up a bit, no?

            But by your own admission you are kinda sensitive.

            aligns with my own sensitivity … it’s ok EC, we understand your stance. Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble?

            Peace out, without a doubt.


      • Well, if you lot are not searching for leads then don’t waste those sandwiches. I am very hungry and love finding leads.

        • And lures!!! Speaking f leads and lures…

          Hey, what’s at the bottom of Bass Lake?

          Bass Turds

          Oh, here’s a roaringly funny one…

          What did ELLA say to YOGI BEAR?

          Get the SCAT out of here!


    • Wow indeed. I had seen this before, but obviously wasn’t paying attention.

      There are 3 hints…
      by 3 different people.

    • I have been thinking about Forrest’s remark at about 13:45, where he’s talking about legal implications related to the hidey spot, where he gives us an example of renting a cabin in Northern NM and whether or not one can use the frontyard, backyard, BBQ pit, etc.

      At first I was wondering if this implied that the hidey spot is on the grounds of a location that one can rent (like a cabin or a campground). Then I started wondering if this comment could be extended to any area that charges admission. If I purchase entry into a National Park, for example, does that mean I am “renting” use of all of its lands contained within its boundaries? Does this mean that the Treasure must be hidden in an area that charges admission?

      • In this same video he described all of the worries of putting it on land that is not privately owned. He also mentions “subchapter esses”, perhaps to say there are tax implications to worry about for the finder. But it could also mean he has worked out the transfer of property as part of the end game via shell corps where his name is not directly involved. It would seem (at least it has to me through this and several other hints) that it is on his own private property, the property is part of the treasure, and this is how he will know it has been found. Have a look at the word “hide” and “hid” as a unit of measure.

        • E.C. Waters – Interesting. The definition of hide as a unit of measurement also reminds me of the definition of “croft”.

          I’m not sold on the idea of it being hidden on private property of his own. Even with intermediaries involved, it seems like that would still be too easy of a paper trail to follow. And wouldn’t the intermediaries have a special advantage in knowledge to finding the treasure themselves?

          There’s something in what he said that is sticking in my mind and I’m trying to puzzle it out. I believe when he was talking about this same general topic another time, he gave another example of the rights-of-way for telephone lines.

          I believe that Forrest never blurts out anything exactly related to the hidey spot. So if he mentions a cabin, private property, northern NM, telephone rights-of-way, etc. I tend to immediately discount those as possibilities. But maybe he knows that some people would think that way and intentionally slips in actual facts for the fun of it? Now I’m just confusing myself!

      • Blex,

        Rental, admission, etc. confuse me when the statement was made.
        Seems to me that once the agreement is finalized, so is the use of the land / property.

        In this case, the searcher would need to rent the same property to retrieve the chest. So the problem becomes… Does the renter have the rights to remove anything he/she did not bring.

        Another-word, can I “remove” that barbeque pit or grill even if it was left by a prior renter?
        At some point the item left behind becomes property of whoever owns the land. I mean, why couldn’t I bring in a flatbed hauler and take the cabin while renting?

        • Seeker – That’s the kind of thinking that I’m doing right now too. What are some other ideas of using a property that would legally throw possession of the treasure in a different direction?

          You can pay for admission into say a State or National Park, but I believe those places have strict laws against removing anything from their land.

          You can make a mining claim, but then again the treasure not IN a mine, but maybe around one?

          What about logging permits? Anyone can get a permit to go into a National Forest to cut down a Christmas tree. Is there something along those lines?

          I don’t even know how fishing or hunting permits work, but maybe there’s something along those lines?

          Is there some sort of prerequisite on the part of the finder to legally purchase some sort of permit in order to seal the deal on ownership of the treasure chest? Maybe there are instructions inside the chest itself on what the finder needs to follow up and do in order to seal the deal? Maybe that’s somehow how Forrest will be able to tell when the chest is found?

          And one last question: Is trying to figure out any of this in advance at all helpful in finding the treasure’s location?

          • Blex – “Is trying to figure out any of this in advance at all helpful in finding the treasure’s location?”

            It’s best to go where the clues tell you. It’s helpful so that you don’t rule out private property, but only if you’re smart enough to know not to break trespassing laws regarding private property. If your solution leads to private property, re-check your solution several times. If you’re still absolutely convinced and have ruled out all other possibilities using “Occam’s razor”, contact the owner(s) to receive permission and implications PRIOR to making a move.

          • E.C. – Agreed. I’m not big on searching private property, but if I ever need to, that’s the route I would take.

          • Blex,

            I’m going with the assumption… What if there are no legal questions.

            Imo the idea of “planning” and that involvement to the challenge is about the clues themselves… And not so much… What happens when the chest is discovered.

            I also think about “down the road” quite a bit. Laws, property, etc change in a the blink of an eye… no matter who (agency) rents, or allows entry.

            Just look at YSP and the multitude of changes in policy and legality and restrictions since it became a NP.

            It might be interesting to ratchet jaw about… But I doubt it has any bearing on *how* to solve the challenge.

          • Seeker – You’re probably right. We’ll cross that bridge if we come to it!

      • The tc belongs to ff. You take it back to him and he gives you $100 finders fee, dude, and you thank him for the fun time you had.

        In the UK you have to give notice of removal if you want something removed from privately owned land, even state land. How can the land owner give notice if they dont know its there? It still belongs to the owner who left it there. I suspect its the same in the US. That means it can be on any land, private, owned or state.

        • Better than nothing Bex. An education like Forrest gave us does not come cheap in the real world.

          If you found your sisters/cousins purse would you hand it into the authorities or take it to her? If it was on public, state or private land? You are legally entitled to take it to the owner in my view.

          But, it wont help locate the treasure by trying to work out what type of land it is on IMO. The rockies are huge.

          Right, time I read that book again.

    • All of you should take time to read the articles posted under the Media Coverage on this blog. The videos and stories are listed chronologically and are nearly contiguous..

      You should check it from time to time to make sure you didn’t miss an announcementent about a new video…or news story.

      • Dal – Thanks! I found that page by googling “dal neitzel media coverage” just now, but couldn’t figure out how to navigate there through your site. I had always checked out the “Forrest Speaks” links, but didn’t know about that one. Any chance a link to that page could be added to the site’s main sidebar? I’ll be going through that page more now to make sure there’s nothing else I might have missed!

        • Hello Blex. You’ll find “Most Important Info” link on the sidebar. Click link and scroll down and you’ll find “Media Coverage” link.

          • Thanks, pdenver! I had looked at that list, but my eyes must have skimmed right over it.
            (Now how the heck am I expecting to find a blaze if I miss something like that? )

      • The video’s, especially the more recent ones from kpro/cowlazers remind me of the axiom I am about to make up:

        1) will the finder be better off reading/watching every ff ATF and every 2nd hand related content that relates to possible clue/answers… (picking the ones that are actually relevant.)


        will the finder have an advantage if all they ever saw was a map(s) and the poem?

        (same searcher, just different environments… in other words the searcher has enough “imagination” to actually return with a chest)


        • I probably shouldn’t have stated the axioms as ‘questions’ 🙂

          then axiom 1c.)

          the finder has an advantage if all they ever saw was a map(s) and the poem, …. and the ttotc book.

          I tend to lean towards 1b) as after seeing what people interpret as a hint, it would be far more likely to go down a rabbit hole using chapters upon chapters of fairly relevant info, yet have nothing to do with interpretation.

          • oh and by the way, I do know that “map(s)” is an ATF, they are my axioms 🙂

            AndyS brings up the good point about the four states, however one can counter that by saying: well the ‘finder’ could have gone through the poem and decided to start in toledo, ….. but why?

            that is the point of the poem, to start in the correct place, not to start in Canada, not to start in toledo… etc….

        • There is a moment in the movie Ready Player One where he is rewatching a video for the 1000th time after 5 years because he got to that point from something someone else mentioned, something about hating rules. He was there at that video rechecking that he fully explored it before, retracing his steps because things just weren’t working out. And by the end of this scene, his heart is racing, he’s breathing hard, he’s in a complete fry for what he now understands.

          In my experience, this is what happens when one connects to the poem’s words. It really is an “oh f*ck” moment. Use every resource available, but specifically use TTOTC as your primary. The ATF stuff is also relevant, in my experience, but said differently. Explore every interpretation. Discount nothing until you have ruled it out. This is a boil-the-ocean puzzle requiring enterprise and the courage to be wrong, to adopt and ditch ideas quickly until that fry moment happens for you. If you stick with the book, the videos and blogs will help “catch up” things in your mind as what needs to be further explored.

          • I’ll have to watch it, some one else said it is good too…

            which of the clues’ have you gotten the ‘ah ha’ moment for?

            if it is one.. or did you have more than one? (more than one clue).

            i guess that could also be, more than one ‘ah ha’ on a single clue?

          • WWWH is my “oh f*ck” moment. In my interpretation, it wasn’t at all what I had expected, and the words used to get there were an absolute surprise. And after having thought about it for a few days now, I can see where I had a mental block about it, and I feel like such an idiot that I didn’t think of it in this way since the beginning. I haven’t solved the whole thing yet, but the surrounding area has many features that appear to match words used. I think I have the blaze based on words used in the book, and quickly down appears make to some sense. My next step is to begin verifying and re-verifying many times for the next clues by looking back to words used in the book, and if I can’t interpret with 100% certainty, to begin using scrapbook posts, vignettes, and interviews that are available. But I’m now 100% certain of WWWH and that I’m in the right location in WY.

          • I have had the ‘ah ha’s too.. I think we all have… and then (in my case) the crushing ‘ah ha’s that one realizes that it was fully wrong; replaced by other ‘ah ha’s that may also turn out to be wrong.

            such is the chase…. and the fun… may your ‘ah ha’ bring that sly smile that we all sometimes wear…. hopefully in your case, it only needs to be one time.

            for me i’m a slow learner…. smiler… 🙂

            for me the WWWH has always brought on more head scratching than the smile, as I am constantly struggling between two. it is like one’s left hand grasping one’s right, both think they are on top.

            but if I was to stand back, it depends on the position of the whole body sort of thing.

          • I can say in no uncertain terms, from my perspective, once you understand WWWH and how to get to this, the world opens up and you’ll get swallowed in the thrill of it. It really does become that obvious.

        • Hi Writis,
          you have pointed very interesting problem about the chase i.e. information overload that happened during last 8-9 years after publication of TTOTC.
          Indeed, first searchers (2010-12) were very lucky – they had only the book with poem inside. No additional hints, numerous interviews with Forrest, infinite numbers of website and blogs etc.
          What we have now? Excess amount of information or “Information overload (also known as infobesity, infoxication, information anxiety, and information explosion) that creates the difficulty in understanding an issue and effectively making decisions when one has too much information about that issue.” I like more the term “infoxication” 🙂
          My best wish now is to become “searcher null” or “searcher zero” i.e. the searcher that only read TTOTC with poem and know nothing more (even about 4 states limitation). I’m sure that only these searchers were very close to TC (500 and 200 feet). They have used only TTOTC and their intuition and have solved WWWH and next one or two clues in poem. Most likely all of them failed with solving of the hoB (we know now from ATF that solving the hoB is most critical step in the chase).
          So, simple conclusion here (especially for new searchers) – just read TTOTC and the poem inside, take good map and plan BOTG. Never read any websites and watch videos like kpro/cowlazers. They will just “infoxicate” you with useless information and false facts. You will be “drowned” in infinite ATF, conclusions, discussions, hypothesises etc. and never find TC.
          IMO but maybe it’s good explanation of Forrest statement that kids have some advantage in the chase over adults – kids will never read these websites and blogs and watch videos like kpro/cowlazers 🙂

          • ok that is my new favorite word : “infobesity”

            right next to my favorite saying: “Beowulf instantly became an alligator of interest.”

          • AndyS: “ATF that solving the hoB is most critical step in the chase”

            imo This might be over interpreted, the line, in so many words from ff: if I told you that, you would go right to the chest.

            he has used that line for more than one thing, very mundane things, I think it is one of those lines that he uses, like pulling one’s wallet out of their pocket… a stored line to say so that he does not have to answer a question, without being too rude.

            so i think it is over interpreted for HOB imo.

          • AndyS: I agree with Writis on this. The evidence that hoB is the “most critical step in the chase” is based on a narrow interpretation of a single utterance by Forrest in 2013 to Jennifer London at the end of the 10:40-11:00 stretch in this video:


            Compare Forrest’s words and his tone to what he says in response to Richard Eeds in May 2015 on his radio show. At the 23:50 mark Richard asks:

            “What kind of shoes? What kind of footprints did you leave? What kind of boots did you have on?”

            FF: “Well if I told you that, you’d go out and find it.”


            Doesn’t it sound like a canned, but polite, response to a question he doesn’t want to answer?

          • Zap – Awesome. That just puts a nail in ‘IT’ for me. My ‘IT’ in the Poem is the Madison River. Which one needs to cross, wearing wading boots. Like I did.

            Thanks for the cross post, from the Contiguous thread, Zap!

    • That made my day. Who’d thought about that, I’ve seen giant goldfish, never a banana trout. Although now I’m gonna rabbit hole (can scientist make glo-trout like my aquarium fish).

    • I’ve caught these before, but the competition is fierce. They tend to cruise the surface. The raptors can spot them a mile away and pick them of like bananas. Any study using these fish will have to account for birds of prey. This population won’t last long. g

  21. Does anyone know what happened to my last post here? Did I say the wrong thing?

    • What did you say?

      If your reply is deleted, then I guess it’s safe to presume that you did indeed say the wrong thing. FWIW, I too have said the wrong thing. It happens here.

      • You don’t have to say the wrong thing for your comment to get deleted.
        If you comment or reply to the wrong (questionable) comment or the threads (questionable content) itself.

        I’m good with that 🙂

        • Yup, the deletion goes all the way back to the “point” of origin.

      • It’s all good. I responded to a topic that had turned into an argumentative conversation. My fault. No harm, no foul.

        • Well, yesterday Dal deleted numerous posts including my and JDA. He deletes posts if he doesn’t like topic. My post was about other website that claimed that Forrest Fenn treasure was founded in August 2019 and now on sale via auction. Usual scam website and it’s funny to visit it and see how these guys are trying to scare TC searcher via false news.
          Still don’t understand why Dal delete any posts about this scam.

          • Dal might not want to promote fraudulent websites Andy, because they serve no purpose here. The subject is a waste of energy.

    • Suzy- don’t fill bad, some of us have been there, just get it out of your mind, and keep commenting

  22. Here’s something that makes ya wanna say hummmm… Forrest kept the chest in his vault and in a video of Forrest I watched the other day it was mentioned that Forrest kept it covered with a Red Bandana.

    Why the Red Bandana? The Bobby McGee SB recently mentioned the Red Bandana.

    I pulled my harpoon out of my dirty red bandanna…

    There’s more to the SB but maybe this could hold a hint/clue?


  23. How do you think Forrest originally found this special place where he hid indulgence? Was he there doing something in the” big picture” area, maybe looking for riches new? Maybe while on this quest he seen a trail of adventure and decided to go down it looking for something old. As he meandered down this trail most likely he spotted places that fed his appetite. The farther down he went the more he challenged himself to come across a place not many have travel, detouring and trudging deeper into a place that had some wonders of it’s own. While on this escape from the norm there was a area, when reached, that filled his heart with amazement, seeing things he might have never seen before. So maybe he rested there eating a pimento sandwich and drinking a Dr. Pepper he had cooling in a small creek near by. Of course at that time not knowing that one day he would hide a chest of gold in this special place.

    Those places spotted that fed his appetite should be the poem clues. Just imagine starting down this adventure trail from where warm waters halt. While the rest of the clues are things seen as he aimlessly meandered until spotting that trail less traveled, that went into a special place of amazement, with most likely riches new and old.

    If you understand some of Forrest’s interests throughout his life and capture the one in TTOTC book, it just might help lead you to the first clue. Once there you can walk in his footsteps following the other clues and don’t forget to bring a sandwich and a drink of your own.

    Good luck,

    • You paint a nice picture of “What might have happened” Bur. I can easily imagine the trip that you just described. I hope that I have spotted the same thing that you have spotted in TTOTC – I guess that only the moon and the stars know if I am right. Thanks for the post Bur, I like the image that you created in my mind. Take care my friend and STAY SAFE – STAY HOME & STAY HEALTHY – JDA

      • Thanks JDA. As I travel this course in my mind lately I can see so much that Forrest would draw interest in. I can see a couple nice resting places that he might have sat and enjoyed a sandwich.

        You stay safe too. Thanks for your comments.


    • Bur,

      I lean towards Fenn flying his single prop plane and seeing a place of interest. These planes max out about 12,000 ft… The height of some mountain peaks area the Rockies.
      The story of playing a thumb over Philly gives me the impression / idea, the place is like that when seen below 10,200′ or even less when you take into consideration some of the lower altitudes mentioned in the book while flying his jet… Say a couple hundred feet over the canape.

      This idea has been on my mind for some time now, and I think it also relates to why a physical presence is needed after the first few (couple) of clues… Some of those physical clues are needed to be seen from ground level… rather than a birdseye view (map or GE).

      Clues from home mapping -SITU? In theory, but not in practice…

      The big picture doesn’t need to be of a large area (your destination is small but the location is huge)… But more about the importance of the area is huge… A place held in high regards.

      That’s my subtle hint idea for the day.
      LOL… However, that kinda says ( if true ) the place was discovered when Fenn had his plane. Yet doesn’t narrow down the search area… Think about fuel consumption for a round trip, line of thinking.

      • I agree Seeker, with this statement: “But more about the importance of the area is huge… A place held in high regards.” I too think that this special [place has been held in high regards for a long long while.

        I think that Forrest recognized this place as being special – not just to himself, but possibly to others as well. – JMO – JDA

        • I flip flop on the idea that a lot of folks would feel or even think about it that way.
          For example; fenn’s dad felt it was important to drive out of the way to show the family the little school house… Well… more about the sign than the building. But that was the important part to Mr. Fenn.

          How many would come across the old school house and feel the same?

          However, with that said, I would think or hope when the finder is there… They may contemplate the reasoning. It may hold an event in history (maybe even geological / geographical history) or something about a conflict of war… or something, most would not know of until researched.

          I mean, how many folks had been in the area where Joseph Meek had to run from the attack and into Yellowstone discovering this place for the first time, and never knew of Meek or others like Russell etc. etc.

          It’s not a major historical event, but something that Fenn may take as important… IDK.
          Kinda like what is one man’s junk is another man’s gold.

          • Taking your last line>>> Outside of San Francisco there once was a sign that read – We buy junk and sell antiques!

            I always loved that sign – JDA

      • they can get to 14,000 ft, they won’t be happy, (hanging on the prop) but it can be done, mnts go to 14k+ but you fly through saddles/passes, I think ff had a turbo prop, and it can go higher still.

        • I just used averages to calculate fuel and elevations… Not knowing too much about fenn’s personal aircraft.
          There’s nothing saying he couldn’t have refueled or few lower.

          My point was an attempt to how, little Indy or anyone else can not get closer to the chest, yet seemingly can discover the first two clues on a map of the overall US. RMs.

          A birdseye view…

          • Seeker – perhaps his hint is only a play on words. Hypothetically and for example, if the real answer to clue 2 has a homophone that means something like “blank” in Hindi, then metaphorically after clue 2 the map has disappeared for the little girl in India and from her perspective.

          • To demonstrate this hypothetical…

            Let’s assess Cora, WY with “Put in below the home of Brown.” And for the moment we’ll just call this “clue 2”. We can derive “home” from Cora House, for whom the town was named. A definition of “cora” suggests a “small fire lit before the oven for maintaining it hot or to brown the bread”. We see on p38 Forrest has used the allusion of homemade bread coming brown out of the oven, one of 7 mentions of brown in TTOTC. If we take this a step further and look at a “simplified” form of “cora”, “cor” (based on the suggestion to do so from wiktionary.com), we find a host of goodies, such as playing cards, dancing, color, and several more, but also an interesting “to put” definition.

            If we transform “cora” to “kora” for Hindi for the little girl in India, like how it is used in the song Kora Kagaz, we see the words “blank paper”. Hence, perhaps she cannot metaphorically make it beyond the second clue if her map has turned to blank paper at Kora.

          • Maybe the chest is closer to clue two then any of the other ones, so that’s why she can’t get any closer

          • Thomas Conrad – sounds good to me. But it does not confirm that “BOTG are required” to discover the clues, only to retrieve the chest. We can armchair this one.

          • Hi Thomas: it’s not necessary for ALL the clues to be further from the chest than clue #2 — just the ones that Little Indy can’t solve with the resources she was given (poem + map of the U.S. Rockies).

            So, for instance, it’s possible she can’t solve clue #3, *or* clue #3 is further from the treasure than clue #2, or both. The restriction is that of the clues she *can* solve, none is “closer” than clue #2 — whatever “closer” happens to mean to Forrest.

          • Drat — logic correction: “… just the ones that Little Indy *can* solve”.

          • EC—

            Funny the different things people see. When I go to p38 all I see is lightning.

          • Sparrow – Are we reading from the same book, TTOTC? Please educate me on how it is funny as “funny” is “important” to me. On p38, third paragraph I read:

            “Sometimes during supper mom would ask us what we wanted for dessert. I always said strawberry shortcake, Skippy would say he wanted pineapple upside-down cake, and June liked something else. So mom would trim the edges off of several slices of homemade bread and then cut the pieces into fourths. When they came brown out of the oven, she’d put butter and different kinds of homemade jams on each piece, and serve them hot.”

            Will you kindly point out how “lightning” is to be interpreted, in case I’m missing it?

          • E.C.: I think Sparrow is just making a witticism about the fact that a P-38 aircraft is called a “Lightning”.

    • Bur…. Hey, what’s up with you? Will you email me? musstag at yahoo dot

    • Bur, Seeker, JDA – I think some places are special just for being there to experience it yourself.

      That’s my wild guess about the meaning of Forrest’s special place to him. Maybe there’s more of a story to it than that, but it seems sufficient enough for me.

  24. Zap,

    You make quite a few of think. I for one now know why my Dad always fell asleep with a book on his chest.

    We would e watching something or just conversing and he would rattle off some knowledge about something kinda insignificant per se’ and then follow it up with “there’s some more worthless information I’ve got stored up here”.

    I never would have even thought about on p-38 being anything other than p-38. And especially coming from Sparrow. He’s deceptively cleverer than the average Sparrow.

    So much to learn about out there…and this Chase makes ya think! That’s my “handi cap” and I’m stricken to it!


    Note to self…keep an eye out for bird droppings…

    • EC—-

      Yes. Zap is right. You see, my Dad was a P-38 Pilot in WW2 in the Philippines. So when I see p38 I see “Lightning”. 🙂

    • E.C. Waters – Awesome! Thank you!

      I had a Cartouche blaze solution for my Cabin Creek solve, on a ridgeline, that went like this:


      It’s the same ridgeline blaze you can see behind Forrest’s left leg, when Donnie took that pic of Forrest on top of Lightning the horse, in “Looking for Lewis and Clark”.

      • E.C. Waters – Speaking of hieroglyphs, Sir Alan Gardiner created an ‘A’-list of “Man and his occupations”:


        A21 looks like Forrest, crossing the Madison River, with his fly fishing staff.

        Didn’t Forrest have a dream about Captain Kidd? And didn’t Captain Kidd bury his treasure on Gardiner’s Island, which is shaped like a boot?

        Methinks A21 is wearing wading boots…

        • Lisa – I’ve traveled the road of hieroglyphs and come up empty handed, even so far as to study translations. Wavy lines as water was a particular interest at one point.

          Other than an allusion to the Rosetta Stone, such that having one helps a LOT for indexing interpretations and answers, and perhaps a few Egyptian references along the way regarding gypsies and their fiddles, oh and Moses, hieroglyphs and cartouches are not part of my solution.

          But good luck. It’s fun to learn about it, but extremely time consuming.

          • E.C. Waters – Osiris and a certain missing golden phallus appeared in the Cabin Creek topo map satellite view in my solve. And Thoth. And the Book of the Dead. And Pyramid Peak. And Sphinx Mountain. Both nearby, in the Madison Range, to the Cabin Creek drainage.

            But now Moses and his staff rule my solve. Wish he could part the waters, so I wouldn’t have to struggle across the Spring current of the Madison River again. Did you know his sister was named Miriam? Kinda like Merriam-Webster, where I look up my archaic word meanings and word etymologies.

          • You might be missing the point just a little bit, but I applaud the thought process you are applying! I have been there!

    • Old Shadows told me that his rosetta stone reference was to its surprise… stacked symbols for phonic words & names. Of course, symbols, sounds, icons, images all become a muddle once inside the brain. I just wish I could remember what ‘definition’ he was referring to then. Maybe it had something to do with ff’s eclectic collections list. (p128)

  25. Here’s a fun fact: hoD, home of Dal, is another way of saying “Dallas”.

  26. While out searching around my hob I ran into a bear and it scares the begeesers out of me and I almost had to bearcan it outta fear. After giving it some meditation I was able to talk the bear into staying out of my lane. Glad I learned to speak bear years ago.

      • That was great! Happy Mother’s Day to all the awesome Searcher Mom’s out there. Having our third full day of sun and hoping to get in a full week for the plants to
        start growing!

    • I’ll say that at least the man has a flair for showmanship and making meta references!

  27. Hmm. I think I might have just solved the 2.5 yr old Buffalo Trace riddle on the Breakfast Tea & Bourbon site. I just heard about it last night while starting to watch a recent cowlazars / kpro stream upload to youtube. I submitted my entry. Maybe we’ll hear something about it in June.

  28. Didn’t Forrest say he always wanted to learn how to play the violin?


  29. locolobo – Working on a new Poem architecture theory, over on Jenny’s Facebook treasure page. Could you or anyone else help me find that quote about the order in which Forrest placed the bronze chest and then the contents, or vice versa, at his special spot?

    Thank you!

    • Hi Lisa: gold first, chest second. From Richard Eeds radio show (5/29/2015):
      Eeds: “Okay. Um, how much does it weigh?” FF: “The gold in the treasure chest weighs 20.2 troy pounds. And the chest weighs forty, uh, twenty-two pounds. So the whole thing, I think, is around 42 pounds. It was heavy enough that I made two trips to hide it. I took the gold in one time, and then I took the treasure chest in the second time.”

      Link: https://santafe.com/podcasts/forrest-fenn-treasurer-hider-author-gallery-owner-and-santa-fe-legend

      • Zap got it…….however – –

        Cynthia has thrown a monkey wrench into the fray. On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 on her blog she wrote:

        I heard Forrest tell a journalist just the opposite during an interview back in June 2016. Here is the transcript from that interview:

        Journalist: How did you carry, I mean, you’re not a kid and you had to carry all this stuff to the place where you hid it?

        FF: I made two trips.

        Journalist: Did you bring the chest first and then the treasure? Or did you bring the treasure first and then the chest?

        FF: I took the chest first and then the treasure. I’ve never said that before.

        (see it -> http://www.chasingfennstreasure.com/blog/i-took-the-chest-first-and-then-the-treasure-ff )
        ** I don’t know if she ever identified the journalist, whether it was for print or video, or if she provided a link to it elsewhere on her blog??)

        are we having fun yet?? 🙂

        • and then you think about it for half a second, and realize either ff was wrong when he said it that way, or the transcript is wrong…

          (and ff has said it in the correct order several other times)

          because no one would leave the gold in the car, then go back and get it after carrying a hunk of bronze up/dn a trail for a couple hours round trip…

          • The poem is a mountain,
            that we shall climb.
            From which side we begin,
            is dependant on time.

          • The poem is a map-
            Each word has a potential trap.
            Yet into it we all escape-
            Regardless of time or landscape.

          • The words in the poem we pair,
            to a map that wont take us there.
            Imagination is what we need,
            for answers on which we must feed.

          • The poem’s words we must dissect,
            To really see how they all connect.
            We then need to put them on display—
            Follow the map, there’s no other way!

          • That is the game to show the way,
            but new ideas are brought to play.
            Shaping the path with minded tools,
            and doing so, we break the rules!

          • Ideas formed and then reforged,
            On polished slag some become engorged.
            O’er their tongues and down their throats,
            Despite “look at the poem like its a map” and other such quotes.

          • Yes, listen to what Forrest said,
            Then, turn the poem on its head.
            Breaking from map skills we know,
            Instead, allow imagination to grow!

          • In my poetic case of map defense,
            Temper your imagination with a little common sense.
            Listen good and make the clues overlap,
            “Like you were going to put an X on a map.”

        • Zap and locolobo – Thank you!!!

          If it’s Cynthia’s version, then my Poem architecture theory works. I will post that theory on that appropriate thread, after I gather my responses over on Jenny’s Facebook page.

          In Summary, I believe now that the Poem could be a play-by-play journal, of sorts, with Forrest’s inner dialogue of how he hid the bronze chest and its contents. We just need to follow his footsteps, with the clues married to a map.

          Regarding hiding the treasure:

          “Just take the chest and go in peace.”

          Forrest is ‘taking’ the chest in on the first trip, and using silence and stealth to ‘go in peace’ back to the Sedan (with the contents in an identical backpack, locked inside).

          “Your effort will be worth the cold.
          If you are brave and in the wood,”

          Forrest is crossing the Madison River for the second time, carrying the gold and jewels in the identical backpack, out to my hidey spot at Baker’S Hole, to put into the bronze chest.

          I believe Forrest is suggesting we do the reverse, backpacks and all, taking the contents out on the first trip and the bronze chest out on the second. Why we might want to leave our search buddy in the car, perhaps?

          Just a theory. All IMO.

          • Zap and locolobo – So, in these Poem lines, Forrest is looking at the interpretive sign on the Baker’S Hole shoreline, with the two ‘marvel-ous’ cast life-sized and maybe bronze Loch Leven trout on ‘IT’, doing the ‘tarry scant’ thing, admiring his awesome handiwork:

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
            Look quickly down your quest to cease.
            But tarry scant with marvel gaze,”

            Key Word: ‘found’.

            As in, a bronze foundry?

            He is telling himself to get a move on…to get out there and ‘take the chest’.

            Maybe??? IMO, yes.

  30. Dal – Why, when I watch.a series on DVD, am I always reminded of The Chase?

    In the History Channel’s “Vikings”, the Earl buries the Viking hoard, confiscated from Ragnar’s first raid in Northumbria, and kills a 13 year old boy to.guard the treasure in this life and the next: His body is buried on top of the hoard.

    “Earl Haraldson, with Svein and another boys help, bury the treasure. Svein kills the boy so that he will guard the treasure in this life and the next.”

    Do you think Forrest had any knowledge of this Viking belief, about the afterlife and treasure hoards, when he planned to take sleeping pills and fall upon the treasure chest? Was this Forrest’s plan to take the treasure with him, after all?

    I know Forrest named one of his alligators, Beowulf, so I would assume he knows of that epic poem, and of the history of the Danes. Have you seen any large RAVEN art pieces in Forrest’s home or collections???

  31. I have been having some creative and poetic fun above with BigOnus (thanks for the exchange and mental exercises, BTW) regarding the poem, and have been “arguing” about the poem being a map.

    FF has several ATF’s where he references a map and the one below stands out to me:

    “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.” (MW website – Six Questions – 02/04/2017)

    What I am curious about is how other searchers “resolve” what is being said in that ATF.

    My take is that “clues” is definitely plural, is later referenced by “them” thereby meaning collectively/as a whole, but is then followed by the wording “a place on a map” whereby such place is seemingly in the singular (because of the “a”) or FF should have written his response as ‘marry them to places on a map’ rather than his actual wording “marry them to a place on the map.”


    • Bowmarc – I don’t believe that focusing on those singular vs. plural words matters very much (at least in the ATF quotes that you are referencing). “Place” can refer to the Rockies, New Mexico, Denver, your backyard, or under a specific log depending on the scale. Without any firm reference to scale (or range of scale), I think that Forrest can remain comfortable making those statements without feeling like he’s giving too much away.

    • Ahh, Bowmarc, but there is also this Q&A from Mysterious Writings (6/25/2014) where “places” is plural:

      “Hi, Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years? Thanks ~Ron”

      FF: “Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions. The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”

      Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

      • Yes Zap. …..but MOST OF THE PLACES the clues refer to did. I often wonder which place(s) the clue(s) refer to may not have existed when f was a kid. And is he referring to a physical place, or simply a name designation or change. It has put the kibosh on a couple of my solves…..

        • Where I’ve been searching, the names and places changing over time is the intriguing part. It’s always the same stuff, but always changing. In my solve, the history is the part I enjoy.

        • I think there is only one place that did not exist when FF was a kid, and all it takes is one place to not have existed to make his statement true. That one place is HOB. Brown is poetic for the treasure chest, making HOB the exact spot where the treasure is waiting to be found and such place only came into existence when FF physically placed the chest there. I think this is why he did not finish the poem until after he hid the chest.


          • You might just be right Bowmarc. Although My HOB is not the resting place of Indulgence, your principal can still apply.

          • Based on the use of the word “most,” there is actually no requirement that at least one of the places not exist when Forrest was a kid. Yes, the least deceptive meaning would be that at least one place didn’t exist, but logically “most” includes “all.” In other words, if the clues describe 5 places, then 3, 4 or 5 places existing when Forrest was a kid would be acceptable.

          • Humm…Zap, you made me go look up the definition of most LOL!

            1. greatest in amount or degree.
            “they’ve had the most success”

            2. the majority of; nearly all of.
            “most oranges are sweeter than these”

            I guess either line of thinking is correct….gee……what a surprise! LOL! 🙂

          • @Zap – I’ll have to disagree with your concept of most meaning all in this instance. Yes, most can apply to all of something, but that is only when there is only one of a certain item. We are talking about 9 clues and the places they refer to, thus most must mean the standard “more than half” definition in this case.

          • Hi Bowmarc: you may want to reconsider. Recall that Forrest made a point about the meaning of the word “several.” Words like few, some, several, many, and most have formal definitions that quite often differ from what people believe they mean.

            Take “some” for instance. Based on your belief about most, I’ll assume you think “some” excludes all, but it doesn’t. Some includes the possibility of all. Similarly, many colloquially think “few” means three or more, but it’s actually “not many, but more than one.”

            Forrest has demonstrated on more than one occasion that he can be a literalist, which is to say he will utilize formal logic if it suits him (e.g. if he wishes to make a point, or even to be mildly evasive). And I probably don’t need to remind you of Scrapbook 61: “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”


            A final possibility: suppose Forrest didn’t actually know if all of the places his clues refer to existed when he was a kid, but he knew for sure that more than half of them did. “Most” then becomes a confidently accurate word choice, since it allows for the possibility that all of the places actually did exist.

          • Zap – you have reasonable logic. But it might also be incomplete.

            Adopting the thought model of the Rosetta Stone, where there are three languages that are saying the same thing, but using different forms of expression, it could also be reasonable to think that a) the places are linked to a year to which he could refer and then truthfully make this statement, and b) the words can ALSO refer to other things than those alluded in option “a” that were not yet chronologically materialized. He does say “brave AND in the wood” to perhaps help us with this logic.

      • Zap – More difficult to find, in 1,000 years…from 2009, when Forrest his the treasure? In Summer, when Forrest was 79-80, which means that would have to be on or after Forrest’s birthday, on August 22, 2009???

        Is this a huge HINT???

        • Can’t be after…
          “…at age almost 80 it was time to act..”
          And if you think about it, it can’t be *on* his b/d either.

          • Seeker – Forrest turned 79 on August 22, 2009. He was 79 all that year, until he turned 80 on August 22, 2010.

            Not sure what you mean…

            Do you think he waited until June 20ish, on the Summer Solstice, of 2010?

        • Hi Lisa: I know Forrest made that recent statement about having hidden the treasure MORE than ten years ago (which would put it on or after 8/22/2009 but before 2010), but I have my doubts. I still think he hid it in 2010 based on the language of his exchanges with both Doug Preston and Irene Rawlings.

          • For clarification, it was his response to the MW Featured Question on Brown Trout on 3/5/2020:

            “Dear Forrest, searchers are saying that you said Brown trout have nothing to do with home of Brown. Is that correct? ~ Sue”

            FF: “Sue, I did not say that. And the treasure is still where I hid it more than 10 years ago. f”

            Link: https://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-brown-trout/

            Forrest’s second sentence is strange because it was unsolicited by Sue’s question, and quite unrelated to the question she did ask.

          • Zap – Right. Had to be “Summer”, per his answer to those Middle School Class kids, via email.

            But that 3,009 year makes me thing it was right after he turned 79, on August 22, 2009, and before Labor Day 2009. I believe the Fall Browns Run on the Madison River starts around then. When the ‘waters’ begin to cool. Maybe when he did his river walk in the preface of TFTW?

            If it was around June 20ish, 2010, Forrest could have been doing a little stonefly nymph fishing for ‘the end of his Rainbow’ on the Madison River, though. They have their spawning run in late May/June.

          • Lisa… that has been my assumption…2009, per his reference to a 1000 years comment and another with the year 3009 referenced. Or not…

          • Has either Doug or Michael McGarrity ever said when the last time was that they remember seeing the treasure chest?

            I notice Forrest still occasionally mentions being 79 or 80 when he hid the chest, even though we know he couldn’t have been 80. Even as recently as the Ripley’s Believe It or Notcast Episode 24 late last year, he says at the 23:40 mark: “Well, I’ve said many times that … don’t look for the treasure someplace where a 79- or 80-year-old man couldn’t go twice in one afternoon.”


          • Hi pdenver: yes, I recall the timing of Doug’s August visit when he saw that the chest was gone, but of course we already knew it was gone by August because it was gone by July 13th when Irene had lunch w/Forrest in Santa Fe. What I’ve never been able to find was an estimate of how long prior to Doug’s August 2010 visit he last actually saw the chest (or Michael McGarrity saw it, or anyone else for that matter). If it was more than a year prior, then it doesn’t matter since that won’t help us decide between 2009 and 2010. But, if Doug saw it in, say, October 2009, then that would tell us he hid it in 2010.

          • Hey there Zap. Do you believe it is mere coincidence that Fenn has mentioned 1000 years down the road and has then referenced the year 3009? For a man that seems inclined to pay attention to details… he could have uttered the year 3010 instead… but did not. Just pondering consistencies.

          • Hi ken: “Do you believe it is mere coincidence that Fenn has mentioned 1000 years down the road and has then referenced the year 3009?” I doubt it’s coincidence — I agree with you that it seems deliberate. But it would also be quite restrictive in terms of when he hid it: a 10-day period in August 2009 (if we assume meteorological “summer”) or stretch that to 33 days if you use the astronomical definition to Sept. 22 (which I think is less likely). Why be so cagey about how old you were when you hid it if you’re just going to give away the few-week period? At one point in 2003 he said Peggy didn’t know within 18 months of when he hid it, which is equally bizarre.

          • Seeker: yes, thank you — 2013. I’m making a lot of typos today for some reason!

          • Hi Zap,
            You said, “Why be so cagey about how old you were when you hid it if you’re just going to give away the few-week period? At one point in 2003 he said Peggy didn’t know within 18 months of when he hid it, which is equally bizarre”

            If Mr Fenn told us, lets say; I hid the treasure on the 5th of June 2009 (not that I’m saying). Wouldn’t this eliminate a significant portion of the the Rockies to be a contender for the hidey space?

          • Hi RichardK: I guess what I’m getting at is the inconsistency in how little or how much he restricts the possible hiding dates. For instance:

            1. I was 79 or 80: okay, that covers from August 22, 2009 to August 21, 2011. Since the book came out in the fall of 2010, most of the time that he was 80 is not under consideration.
            2. My wife doesn’t know within 18 months of when I hid it: well, that could cover a 3-year range, by some interpretations.
            3. I’ve only been there in summer: kills October to May. Based on TTOTC and other Fenn sources, it likely restricts the hiding month to June, July or August (the 3 months he spent in Yellowstone as a kid when school was out).
            4. If he hid it in August 2009, it would have to be the 22nd or later. He did NOT hide it in August 2010, nor the second half of July 2010.

            To get back to your point, yes: some dates (e.g. early June) could eliminate certain high-altitude destinations. Personally, I think the treasure location can be reached almost year-round (at least when you don’t have a pandemic going on).

      • Zap – That was ‘placeS’, as in, Baker’S Hole, which existed when Forrest was a kid. And he rode his bike or walked there, probably along the Boundary Trail, from the Fennhaven Cabins, on Boundary Street, to my S-curve blaSe/blaZe, every Summer, to go swimming.

        Here are a few nice shots of my search area, in Winter:


        Forrest could retrieve it anytime there.

        • Zap, have you ever considered that he hid it when he was 79 AND 80? One trip each year. He never answered the question from Joe on TarryScant. “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place, and it was done in one afternoon.” What he left out was “each time.”

        • Mibster: a separate time he made it clear that both trips were made in the SAME afternoon.

          • I don’t think he’s made that “clear” Zap. In fact, I think he’s given clues to support there being two different dates.

            He did say if he had different thoughts, that he could go back tomorrow and get the chest. (paraphrasing).
            So, should we believe that f took the chest in for a couple miles, headed back to his car, then took the treasure back in, a couple miles, then back to his car, and then still be able to do it all the next day?
            Unless you think he took another form of transport, sounds like a lot of effort for an 79-80 year old man.
            Not even thinking that one way is 5 miles, let’s say 3. That is 12 miles one day, then saying that he could do it all the next day if he needed, going up a mountain, into a forest, going down, up, then down again, at 79 years old, 24 possible miles, hauling around, say, 30-35 pounds each time, I don’t want to underestimate the guy, but come on.
            If he didn’t walk a long distance, then why tell us to be sure to take enough water and food, and GPS? I wouldn’t need any of it if I was to just walk 1-2 miles one way.
            Plus the current statement as you posted about more then 10 years of date 03/05/2020.
            And the treasure is still where I hid it more than 10 years ago. f”
            Could that be confirmation that he first took in the treasure, then the chest, (since, going from memory, he has stated both ways). One comment, saying chest first, another comment saying the treasure first. And, since others have seen the chest in 2010, leads to first trip between 08/22/2009-03/04/2010, and second trip around the Summer Solstice, June 21st- end of July, 2010.
            Also, I don’t think he would just leave something of so much value in his car while he makes his first trip out, no matter if people were around or not. Something so big to his life, I think he would be a little more security conscious.
            Again, if he had another form of transport, he could take the whole thing in with just the one trip, since two trips, f walked it. So, to think that he could do it all again the next day, that is a bit of a stretch. Not saying that 79-80 year old people don’t run marathons, but they don’t do it with 30 or so pounds on their backs. And that’s probably at a minimum.

          • Poisonivey: I will agree there was a possible interpretation loophole in Forrest’s response to Joe in the June 2014 MW Q&A: “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.”
            Link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

            There was no such loophole in last year’s Ripley’s Believe It or Notcast. At the 23:40 mark:

            “Well, I’ve said many times that … don’t look for the treasure someplace where a 79- or 80-year-old man couldn’t go twice in one afternoon. I mean, I took … the gold in one time, and then I came back to my car, I got the treasure chest, and I took it in. I didn’t want to carry 42 pounds at one time, and the gold was about half the weight of the chest, so it worked out really good. And I went to where I hid that chest – I did it twice in one afternoon from my car .”

            Link: https://www.ripleys.com/weird-news/forrest-fenn-ep-24/

          • Was wondering, is he defining “take it in” with this ATF? Seems to me that if he is, “take it in” is not an observation, unless, he just sat there and stared at the chest. He wasn’t “taking in” the sites of the canyon, but instead actually taking something into that canyon, (or better yet, where he parked his car). Since he is taking it in the canyon down, and he went back to his car, grabbed the chest, and took it in, then it would seem as though his car was at the first or second clue. Since the second clue is where we “take in”.
            This means that you are not observing at this point, but actually moving.
            I’ve found things/hints that suggest something 62 days from his b-day, which means 06/21/2010, Summer Solstice. Then, the daylight lasted for 15 hours, 45 minutes. So, what would be considered the “afternoon”?
            12-6, 12-8 maybe, so we are back at the one way trip being between 3-5 miles. Unless he had another form of transport. I still don’t think that he would have enough in him to go back the next day and do it all over again. So, I guess that comment was a case-in-point type comment. And the “more then 10 years” comment on 03/05/2020 was more of a spur-of-the-moment type answer. Just strange that the comment had nothing to do with the question.
            So, up to 8hrs for trek, long walk still seems to be the order, not observing the canyon, and car parking at around the 1st – 2nd clue, (probably one in the same), with a date of 06/21/2010 as a reference. Lol, same ol’ arguments with this thought. Another piece of confirming info, IMO.

    • Hi Bowmarc…
      Many discussions and countless threads have tossed the plural vs. singular designation in regards to *a place* on a map around. I think that taken as a group, the comments from Fenn seem to indicated more clearly that he is referring to *places*. Zap’s quote below is fairly clear. Also, I think your initial comment from Fenn in this thread can be taken as …. looking for the clues(plural) and marrying them individually to a place that corresponds to that clue. This of course is assuming that that individual clue is indeed a place and not a directive.

    • Thanks for the replies thus far.

      Just tossing out some more thoughts in no particular order:

      01) The places (plural) referenced by the ATF provided by Zap could be waypoints within the singular place (my dead-end canyon idea, for instance) referenced in the ATF I supplied. I guess the point I am trying to get at here is that the search area could be relatively small and these ATF’s can support that notion based upon the context of the Q/A’s that elicited each FF answer.

      02) Again referring to Zap’s provided ATF, what is the effect of FF’s words “that the geology will probably change” on a large scale solve as opposed to a small scale solve? If you have a large scale solve, with many miles in between clues, the geological event that effects more than one of the places being referred to (because FF says “I think they” meaning plural) would have to be pretty big, as opposed to a geological event occurring in a small scale solve area where the likelihood of it negatively effecting more than one of those places (as clues) is greater…

      03) I really do try to avoid lumping ATF’s into a conglomerated category that is “averaged” because they share a word/theme without giving my due diligence to the subtleties, especially when such are written words as opposed to spoken words. I have a different level of tolerance for “averaging” spoken words because they are given “on-the-spot” rather than being carefully written and supplied at one’s own unforced pace. Sure, one can prepare responses for an oral interaction such as TV interviews, book signings, etc., but the live nature of such is bound to have an impact on one’s choice of words regardless of how well they have been rehearsed.

      • Bowmarc,

        This is where we have a different perspective.

        While the ATFs should be read as individual comments relating to a Q&A or inquiry… I personally see them all relating to each other.

        Let’s break a few down.

        In a 1000 years…
        In the year 3009…
        At age almost 80…

        These have been common and continuous ATFs since almost the beginning. But what was missing was; when did Fenn hide the TC. He avoided the question for many years (saying he didn’t want to answer that) until he answered the students Q&As. This resulted in the answer: Summer.

        Another factor known was fenn’s B/D, being in August.

        When we take those factors into consideration… Do they have anything to do with the poem?

        I think they do. Fenn could have just said she 79… But the way he worded it in the book brought attention to it.
        Another story in the book related to “paddling” and June never got paddle because June was always right.

        The very subtleness of year 2009 and June, and Fenn stating “Summer” are all pieces of information told of in the book and many times repeated over the years by way of ATFs that I think bring it all together for the “idea” of the book will help with the clues.

        You may ask when or where did Fenn ever indicate the month of June prior to the Q&A… Well, just like the few examples above… He has subtle suggestions of summer in the book, as well as, repeating; wait till the mud dries, pack it in for the winter…. But never directly connecting it all for us… That’s our job to think and analyze, plan and observe.

        Sure, some only consider these types of comments “safety” guidelines only… But I think they relate to a thought process.

        Point being; if you use ATFs as a check and balance for the book and poem you might see how they all connect. The problem was… We didn’t receive all those ATFs at one time…. They were scattered here and there, not unlike information from the book.

        Imo they are not individual comments, but a collaboration of comments that connect as a whole, and very subtle.

        – try and simplify the clues

        – It’s difficult but not impossible.

        – If it was easy anyone could do it.

        • Hi Seeker;

          As usual, I like the way that you think. You may well be right, but who knows???? Only the shadow knows 🙂 🙂 🙂 JDA

        • @Seeker – I do not disagree that ATF’s with a similar subject are related. My comment was not to just lump them all in one category because they are related and take their average meaning/theme as the summarized correct answer. I think we need to be more careful/thoughtful than that, and give our due diligence to any subtleties.

    • I was just being mischievous Bowmarc. If Forrest tells us the poem is a map, that there is no doubt in my mind it is. I genuinely believe we must solve the clues in order to find the tc.

      It might be worth looking up the meaning of word Map though.

      Here is something to think about. How do we know the map isn’t replicated on more than one scale and/or is using more than one method? That would certainly bring in the plural and create chaos.

      • No worries BigOnus—as I put it above I was having fun and it really was an enjoyable exercise in creativity.

        I’ll look into your suggestions.

    • Bowmarc,

      Another thought to consider;
      The path would not be direct for those had no certainty of the location beforehand…

      Location could fit the idea of having clues being of features / points etc. within said location on a map.
      The size of the location is what’s in question.
      Fenn’s yard, for example has a pond, creek, trees, wood lot, open land area… etc etc. All have their own place…yet is all contained in a know location.

      In Zap’s posted Q&A the idea of places can still be contiguous in the manner of *joining* to make-up a single location.

      With that said; I think the clues are part of a whole… connected in a manner that without one the whole falls apart. In which case contiguous can also mean the parts were created together over time, or together on a geological scale involving the geographical location.

      The question still remains… what is the size of the location?
      A back yard or the outback…

      Marry the clues to A place on a map.

      Doesn’t marry mean to coupled together, joined, become one….

      I get it… The comments can be read both ways as to, each clue being individual to the next, or each clues contiguous in space and time…
      No.. not that Space, the other space.

      I’m more interested in “the location” beforehand.

      • Does size matter? I believe in this case it most certainly is important. I believe that Fenn has given folks a lot of extra info through his interactions with folks over the years that seem to indicate that THE search area that the clues are in is probably quite compact overall. I also think that folks can spin whatever they need to help their own personal theories as the man has not been very specific about the most important aspect of the Chase… wwwh explicitly. Where to start, where to head next, how far to travel, stay put, spin in circles scanning for what… but I think that one thing is certain, there are more than one places in reference to the clues. Are there nine places? Nah… I’m thinking not.

      • I don’t disagree Seeker or Ken. FF’s backyard is a good example of a singular place (which I call his “secret where” just like the poem does) which then gets described by some of the clues. Because of this, I feel there are less than 9 smaller places within his secret where, especially since I see redundancy in the clues. Not all the clues describe places as some give us direction/information about how to find Indulgence within his secret where—as long as the direction/information will lead you to the treasure, it qualifies as a clue.


      • Great message in that video. Now that must have been a hell of a roaring sound.

        • Hi E.C.: I still marvel that Buffalo^8 is a legitimate English sentence. 😉

          • Then wait’ll you figure out the meaning behind where warm waters halt and to how arrive at it. It’s an oh sh*t moment for sure.

          • Thats the easy part E C.

            Wait till you arrive at the end. That has a telling of its own again!

          • Let me think here a minute.

            Q. Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
            A. No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.

            IMHO, this is when someone can have an oh sh*t moment.

            IMHO, this applies to all clues involved.

          • Zap – sorry I missed your response in all of the mire that is this blog. When Forrest suggests people send him emails that are incoherent, I also find myself feeling a sense of impatience, likely magnitudes less than I’m sure he feels with trying to weed through all of the noisy text.

            “Hi E.C.: WWWH is straightforward, IMO. NB,BTFTW is the real challenge.”

            If by “the real challenge” you mean a really big deal, I would agree. If not and otherwise… to me, NF,BTFTW is not really THE challenge, and I’m not connecting with your word choices. In my opinion, THE challenge is still found in truly understanding wwwh and why you are there, along with an understanding to what “in the wood” is referring. Frankly, it wasn’t straightforward to me for 7 years. Not saying my 7 years of learning curve means anything because I’m certain there are lots of people smarter than me in this search and have figured it out. But I am saying that after I understood it, or at least what I think it is, it was a major “oh sh*t” moment for me, and now all of it has started to fall into place with the needed Rosetta Stone at the center.

            Now, let’s see if the search is finally to be finished this year (please note I worked very hard on not splitting my infinitives).

          • Hi E.C.: I meant the “real challenge” in that it’s harder than WWWH, though of course that’s just my opinion. Still, it’s a pretty supportable opinion since Forrest has never definitively said that anyone has solved the 3rd clue, and I believe NF, BTFTW is that 3rd clue.

            I’m sure someone will chime in here with the ATF about the clues getting progressively easier, but I just don’t buy it — at least not in the strict sense of clue #2 is easier than #1, #3 is easier than #2 and #1, and so on. The first two clues were solved by September 2012, less than two years after TTOTC came out and over 7 1/2 years ago when far fewer searchers were in the Chase.

            “… to me, NF,BTFTW is not really THE challenge, and I’m not connecting with your word choices.”

            I would clarify the wording as a roadblock to progress rather than the overall crux of the problem — the reason the first searchers to solve the first 2 clues trotted on past the remaining 7. A failure to think the right thoughts. Solving it is still not a Golden Ticket to success, but it’s obviously a necessary component.

          • Zap – I definitely understand your opinion, 7 years worth of my own interpretations. But I also propose the argument that (in my opinion) it does get so much easier after understanding why you are at wwwh as the pattern of “why and how” seems to continue, at least to where I have reached at clue 7. And the answers to get there are everywhere IN THE BOOK! This includes the meaning of not far but too far to walk. My sense today is that I’m about to leave my current area and go somewhere else now per the poem, but I haven’t had enough time today to work on this as my job is getting in the way of my hobby (imagine that). If I were super confident and rich, I would just quit my job to work on this, so that should tell you where I am in this whole thing after almost a decade of investment. But I will say… what I’m seeing right now is very exciting to me, and very difficult to contain it with others who can relate. I wish I was inside the Oasis with my friends who also have this in common and are also trying to work on this together. But, alas, this seems to be a Parzival-only game.

          • Ah! Wagner changed Percival’s name to “Parsifal” for his[Wagner’s] own little twist to the story. Just a little tidbit to think about….

          • E.C. Waters – My understanding is that the location is revealed at the end of the poem, but followed with a surprise, revelation and kind of instruction that has to be worked out.

            IMO, the clues follow a pattern and after the first clue is opened up, and linked to the next, it becomes easier. All lines in the poem require equal amount of work and brain ache though. Forrest makes us work for our supper, that I am sure.


          • BigOnus – still working on what I think is clue 8. I do agree it seems to require brain work at each clue to make sure you have the right place, but if you’ve been doing it as long as I have, everything in the whole world gets translated as a Fenn hint. My head unfortunately has been rewired like this, and I’ll be thrilled to let all of that go once someone finds it. Not sure yet about the rest of what you say, but it would make sense if there is a eureka moment when opening the chest, and perhaps finding a property deed inside.

          • Zap,

            No repeating quotes… You said it yourself… The ticket to it all is thinking the right thoughts.

            Folks telling of the first two clues correctly ( or at least in the correct order). The same might be for the first four clues. Seemingly go folks near all remaining clues and several near the chest… Yet no one has put it all together.

            Might it be just that simple, that there is a “thought process” that involves how the clues might be intended to be used or utilize.

            How can half the poem’s clues be deciphered, in order, and still those folks have nothing more going for them than anyone else.

            LOL *lead searcher* my big toe nail.

            Method of Operation might be the key.
            Not to mention / forget… The solve seemingly can fit on a sticky note vs. the novel size solves we read about.

            Here’s a thought… Can all the clue references be seen from WWsH and we just follow where the all end up? Where the all cross one another… All being features we see on a geographical timeline?

            A (now) lake created by a (once) glacier at the base of the canyon it created and where hoB is revealed?

            This being; not far bake in time, but not being able to go back in time… Because during that time period was no place for the meek.

            Just for example…
            Because the thought process is about comprehensive knowledge of geography… rather than try to follow Blackbeard’s treasure map, method.

          • E.C. Waters – A lot of the clutter is useful for identifying clues. There is a core path from start to finish; that needs to be followed in order to understand the end. You will certainly need that imagination in the end.

            I was actually chuckling like the dog from Dastardly and Muttley as I wrote that, because I bounce it off my wife and the last time she said, “have you heard yourself? Can you imagine what people would say if you told them that?”

            I do hope Forrest is crazy, because if he isn’t, then I am all alone in a mad world!

            IMMOO (in my mad opinion only), so dont listen to me.

          • Thinking the right thoughts… should perhaps be reworded to a more correct rendering of thinking the right things. Small point… however, the things we might have to think may boil [down] to a more simplistic or even not yet thought of avenue of approach. Let’s face it… if progress is still stuck where it has been… clearly current approach patterns are not what they need to be to succeed. From the Alien Egg theory through even the more common renditions are still off base by. It’s like counting pieces of rice with boxing gloves… not gonna work.
            The sticky note solve idea is interesting. That idea seems to lend to the idea that promotes simplicity and offers a possibility that the concept of the riddle is indeed very basic. Basic enough that maybe only an understanding of one simple thing is enough to be certain of what to do after figuring out the starting point. Or not…

          • I agree ken, its the right thinking that counts. But imagination plays a part in identifying how to use the sticky notes. Then its a simple joining process, using information derived from elsewhere. IMO

            By the way, lick your boxing glove, stick it in the rice and count the ones that stick. Then repeat! 😉

          • Hi Ken: “Thinking the right thoughts… should perhaps be reworded to a more correct rendering of thinking the right things. Small point…”
            No objection there, though I consider the two essentially equivalent.

            “… the things we might have to think may boil [down] to a more simplistic or even not yet thought of avenue of approach.”

            IMO, collectively it’s more of the latter. It’s a series of puzzle problems where the solutions are (probably) simple and straightforward once you figure them out.

            “Let’s face it… if progress is still stuck where it has been… clearly current approach patterns are not what they need to be to succeed.”

            I think Forrest stopped providing progress reports because he considered that it might be too helpful to the searchers who are furthest along solving the clues. Sort of like the Mastermind game. Suppose some searcher believed they had 8 clues right, and they shared their full thinking with Forrest. If Forrest reported on the blogs months or even years later than no one had solved past, say, the 5th clue, that would at a minimum tell that searcher (and every other searcher) that at least four of their clue solutions were wrong. It’s not ~that~ helpful, but it could deter some from venturing out that otherwise might have in the absence of that info.

          • I agree with Zap on “IMO, collectively it’s more of the latter. It’s a series of puzzle problems where the solutions are (probably) simple and straightforward once you figure them out.”

            I also believe Forrest is waiting at the end to trip us up, so we fall flat on our face. We work out how and why, then we are able to shape the next move. Some good thinking is needed here, but once you have it you know for sure.

            Like all of us, I was hoping to be the lead searcher, but all the time I was wearing stubborn lead boots. I have moved on now. Good job I went back to the beginning a couple weeks ago and started again, because I could never have done it without. I was missing critical information.

            I am pretty sure I have nailed it now.


    • Chug. I wonder what sound a titan makes when picking up the sky, and can you prove it.

  32. Curious, I haven’t been receiving notifications from this thread. So I am posting so that I will!

    • I rarely get any from this site. It feels like my paperboy delivers twice a week and to read any other day I have to peer through my neighbours window in hope of catching the odd headline. I bump into some missed posts days later, so at least it evens things up.

  33. Forrest’s friend Barry Manilow had a hit song 30 years ago which is making a huge comeback due to Covid19. The lyrics seem appropriate to the Chase.

    When the Good Times Come Again

    Every rainbow has to have an end.
    A pot of gold or dreams foretold
    May not be there my friend.

    In this high and mighty world we live in
    Sometimes we have to break
    Sometimes we have to bend

    Until the good times come again.
    I’ll see you then,
    When the good times come again
    When you and I have made it back
    From the people and the places we have been
    I’ll see you then
    When the good times come again

    The door that we go out of
    Is door that we come in
    When the good times come again
    When the good times come again

    Hope we both survive the world out there
    You’ll never know what wind will blow
    So don’t forget I care
    And don’t forget the way we felt together
    Sometimes we have to hold
    To all the good that’s been
    I’ll see you then
    When the good times come again…

    Barry, if you follow this blog, thanks for so many great hits. Call me and we’ll pick up the treasure together. George Hamilton was too busy tanning to take me up on treasure recovery. LOL

  34. If the little girl from India was Buddhist and not Hindu, how many clues could she solve?

    • JOHN,
      IMO, less than 0
      or close.
      HER meditations into subjective patways
      would lend to poor odds
      in reaching the end clue.

    • John edo, we all know Forrest Father was a practicing Baptist, and the last person ff speaks of in his Thrill Book is his father, so perhaps WWWH, the first clue might be a spiritual message, Eckart Tolle is a Buddhist but often confirms that the teaching of JC, my lord and savior are correct. Little Indy need to peacefully coexist and find a way to go in peace…All IMHO.


  35. Recent reports out of Santa Fe NM say officials from Tiddly Winks 424 and Thumb Twiddlers United expect longtime champion and game expert Forrest Fenn to release new evidence that ancient gamers originally played with their toenails. One insider has quoted this expert saying ” I am not surprised. Heck… everyone knows that all good basket weavers utilized both hands and feet. Game on ! “

  36. Thanks dal,
    That area definitely keeps my periscope extended.
    And to Glenna Freedman on toes- in line with those wooden clodhoppers is a 3000 year old prosthetic toe made from wood. You might say a really old bare footin clodhopper.

  37. “Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination.”f

    Interesting definitions for EARN
    Noun: an eagle
    Verb: to grieve

  38. “Toe to Toe” Contest

    Interesting choice if words Forrest.

    Are 2 people toe to toe with solutions nailed down?

    Definition of toe-to-toe
    : slugging it out at or as if at close range
    a toe-to-toe confrontation or competition

    Synonyms for toe-to-toe
    eyeball-to-eyeball, face-to-face, head-on, head-to-head, mano a mano, one-on-one

      • ECWaters,

        Not to disappoint…

        Here comes the best anagrams for Toenail…

        It alone

    • 42,

      That is an intriguing suggestion……two people in close range? Hmmm…….if true, who would the two be?……..hmmmmm……..


      • It doesn’t matter. What matters is who takes it home. The end. Full stop. To wonder about who is closer is foolishness.

        • E.C.,

          You gotta lighten up a little. Sick back and enjoy some folly. Life is too short to cut to the chase. (Pun intended.) I could care less who actually finds the chest. It will outlive us all anyways.

          Have you never heard of the Tortoise and the Hare? If all that mattered to you, or anyone else, in that story was who crossed the finish line first, then you missed the entire point of the story in the first place.

          As an avid problem solver, I enjoy getting results. But if all I looked forward to in life were the correct answers I would not be living much of a life now would I? To each their own though.

          You must be one of Shakespeare’s audience members……:)

          All IMO.


        • EC, my hunch is that one person has it all nailed down and is going toe to toe with Fenn. It’s a contest of wits with one man. FF is the competition.

          There may be more to the story or Extenuating circumstances why someone is not recovering the treasure. For instance, if I knew the location sat within 2 feet of a den of rattlesnakes, and 2 hours away from a hospital with antivenin…I’m not sure I’d put myself or others in harms way.

          • 42 – I see your point. Maybe.

            But it doesn’t matter if someone is somehow and unknowingly toe-to-toe with someone else, or matching wits with Forrest. Likely that kind of exuberance is just an annoying gadfly to him.
            He’s flat out said he’d rather reduce his email traffic. It only matters if someone has the chest and has confirmed it with Forrest and/or the open public. THAT someone will have solved it and will have gone to the location to get it. Nothing else about this puzzle matters. It is a zero-sum game, win or lose, Boolean, nothing in the middle, full stop, end of horseshoe. How do I put this any other way?

          • Hi 42: if, by the title, Forrest is alluding to a pair of individuals, I would lean more toward your interpretation: that it is a searcher and Forrest as opposed to a pair of searchers. Searchers aren’t going toe-to-toe (facing off) with one another: they have a common goal, and therefore metaphorically they are pointing in the same direction.

          • E.C.,

            “How do I put this any other way?”

            Why bother? If you feel like you are trying to explain to a room full of chocolate lovers how there is no chocolate in white chocolate, why worry if they enjoy some non chocolate white chocolate? Your concern is as confounding as your resolution. As for me, I prefer milk chocolate! Still, it makes you wonder what the hare dreamt about as he paused to take his nap……

            All IMO.


          • E.C.,

            Oh no! Don’t do that! I don’t take captives! Arrrrrrgh….. 🙂


  39. I’m toe to toe with Colorado via state, county & city levels. If anybody here can decode it all, please lmk.

    I’m contemplating just going for it & if stopped by anybody, I will pay them in toenails.

  40. Mentions lately in comments, of thinking back or ahead in time and benches helped get me some gold today. I have been chasing little specks of gold down at the river for a couple of years looking for the source of my one or two colors per pan. Today I imagined myself back in time, when the river was much wider and the flow pushed hard against higher banks. I found a little cove where the rising runoff was pushing nice little waves up onto a beach with a sluicing affect on a higher bench. Then I saw it. A black streak of iron sand leaching out of the bank, and visibly more as I watched with each wave carrying away the light sand for me. I put a scoop of it in my pan and viola, twenty colors. Too bad they are so small they cant get much smaller. But nevertheless, its gold and when I tried to close my eyes tonight the specks shined in my mind like stars. I could even pick out some constellations. So shiny was the gold in the bright sun that it burned its its image into my mind like light on film. I think I am better understanding placer gold and an ever rising gold fever. g

  41. Starting to pack up for my solve try this weekend.

    I’ll report back next Tuesday with results!

    • Thanks EC and Pdenver!

      My solve is a little too simplistic, so I’m not very confident the treasure will be there… but it should be a fun time regardless, and I guess that’s what Forrest really wants us to have anyway!

  42. Not far but to far to walk- back to the future
    Marty mcfly- fly fishing
    Home of brown- Dr browns house
    George mcfly- Fenn as a kid!!

  43. The Chase is a lot like drafting a daring post that reveals something you’ve discovered but have kept secret from the search community for years. And then after three days of editing and re-working it to get the wording just right, Pondering if you should actually post it or not, you look away and nervously hit “Post comment”.

    …And then Dal deletes it.

    • Randawg – Well you have me intrigued. Can you tell if there’s something in particular that would have caused it to be deleted and re-word it a little differently?

    • My comment was done tongue in cheek to parody
      the frustration of my recent BOTG.
      Dal certainly needs no reason to delete posts.

      • Hi Randawg,
        Dal definitely become too meticulous censor for our posts 🙂 I can imagine your frustration when your BOTG failed i.e. you are not found TC. Dal website will be overloaded if each searcher will published even only one failed BOTG. Question is: what is failure of well planned BOTG? Well, mostly we have enough good WWWH and CD, then NF, BTFTW and then we start to search for the hoB. Some searchers think that it’s just big area of brown mud, some that it’s first place in Yellowstone where Brown trout was released etc. Anyway, when they come to their hoB and try to put in they lost poem line. They become frustrated and try to publish pessimistic posts about recent BOTG. Dal deletes them because the chase should not be pessimistic. Forrest designed this chase to be only optimistic i.e. each BOTG should make you happy. So, don’t be sad if you didn’t found TC – just plan next BOTG better.

  44. I am seeing around that Forrest said, The treasures location is in the sun but the chest is not. In Cynthias interview the question asked if the treasures location was in the sun a good part of the day. When Forrest later told Cynthia that the location was, the chest was not. Was he still considering or did he originally hear the, a good part of the day part of the question? Is the chest always not in the sun?

    • Probably just means it’s under a rock or hidden down a crevice. Or both. I’m confident it’s not sitting out in the sun where someone might trip over it.

        • Yeah, incoherent posts like this are frustrating to me because I want to answer, but I don’t know what you’re saying because you’re not articulating. As far as my solution, it’s not in water nor is it near water. “Wet” means something else.

          • Sorry, maybe I got my words crossed. I should have said, I never mentioned nor implied water.

          • Hence the point, BigOnus. You didn’t really mention a relevant topic. A stone floating? LogIC? ThE RiGhT LoGiC mIgHt… wtf. You’re not saying anything. Why post?

          • Forrest lost 42lb in Vietnam. That 3 stone that was floating high above the clouds before his journey began.

            Just saying.

          • BigO,
            Ah, a fine example of cultural misunderstanding. You are from the UK correct? Well most people here in the states do not know about “stone weight”, and or it is commonly used in the UK. You start talking about size of stones, people here might think your talking about the size of your coconuts 🙂

          • Hi BigOnus — re: “Forrest lost 42lb in Vietnam.” It was 22 lbs. that he lost and didn’t even know it. Interestingly, he’s been 100% consistent with that phrase on at least 5 occasions: Santa Fe Radio Cafe (10/25/2010), Lorene Mills (5/13/2011), Moby Dickens bookshop (11/2/2013), Richard Eeds show (5/29/2015), and On the Road with Charlie part 1 (5/8/2017).

          • Yes, I stand corrected Zap, it was 22lb, but even he didnt know it, so maybe it was 42lb anyway, seeing as he didnt know.

            Same bloke, different haircut.

          • If not meant literally, what would “wet” mean? FF has said
            that his poem is “straightforward” or “straight forward”. Of
            course, this, in itself, does not mean or imply that his ATF
            comments all are. I am taking “wet” to simply mean “wet”
            in the most common usage of that word, such that a typical
            ten-year-old American human child could understand.
            Good luck to you. As always, IMO.

        • No misunderstanding NearIndianaJones. I was just offering E.C. Waters an example of floating stones for his written records.

          Might come in handy one day!

          • E.C.: maybe BigOnus is referring to asteroids — big floating stones. 😉 But I’m with you on concealment: I think there’s a decent chance the chest is secreted “Indian basket style” a la TFTW p. 218. My treasured bold/”bowled”. But I do think Forrest meant “wet” in the conventional sense of damp. Perpetually exposed to moisture.

          • I have not read TFTW. Only the important bits from TTOTC, so cannot comment.

  45. I’ve just returned from my target search area in Montana and came up empty. I’m a little saddened because I couldn’t get down a few of the roads due to closures and, in not having the proper camping gear, I was also unable to hike to where I wanted due to those closures. Not sure if I’ll make another trip this year but, in the event that I do, I want be more prepared.

    In trying to tie up the loose ends, didn’t Forrest mention that if a person found the blaze, they could walk right to the tc and be confident in their solve? Does anyone have a link where Forrest mentions this?

    • Hi Suzy-S;

      Sorry that your roads were blocked – Road Blocks seem to be common in Forrest’s Chase. YUP, being properly prepared seems key also. In my solve, there is only one road in, and one road out. If it is closed, it is “Too far to walk” – at least for this old man – JDA

      • Blex, thanks! It looks like that’s the one. I thought it was more focused on a specific landmark in Forrest’s response. My mistake.

      • Your right BigO. If I have to walk to the tc because of road closures, I want to make sure I hit the right target. Hitting the bullseye, however, is like pulling a rabbit out of the hat.

        You haven’t seen anything like that lyin’ around on the trails, have you? (lol)

  46. If your aim is good you only need one shot. Take time, get the bunny in your sights, stand perfectly still and squeeze. Recoil might shock your shoulder and elbow joint, making you curse a little, but supper on the plate first time is worth the extra effort.

    Yes, I see a lot of things 😉

  47. BigO. The problem is, that rabbit might make a final dive for his hole, Good thing I got a muzzle loader gun with a steel ball… can’t miss with those babies.

    Just a warning, though. Make sure to duck if you’re in the vicinity and it ricochets off the rabbit… it can put an awful big hole in your hat. The native Crows will be my witness if things go wrong.

    • Spoken like a true jester! Those muskets would sure bring a tear to ones eye if hit. The noise is deafening, by the way!

      Having said that, we were playing target practice a while ago and my 18 month old baby slept through a whole day of pounding. The child’s mother was not too pleased.

      • Thanks, Big O. I think I see the tear of compliment! You’re a sly cat, aren’t you?

        And depending on one’s point of view, your final statement can be viewed as an oxymoron. Problem is, I have very poor eyesight. Another warning to watch out when I take aim.

        All in good fun!

        • SuzyQ
          I would be happy to teach you how to shoot. I have a air soft bb gun that shoots plastic bbs. They are suppose to be safe And don’t hurt (with proper eye and face protection) to play like paint ball. However the squirrels in my yard would probably disagree and show the little welts on their posterior. With me and the squirrels its just nuts !? 🙂 Well Suzy_S it’s all in the tree company we keep.

        • I like your ironic spirit BigO! Your temperament will forever fill the lost regions of my heart. Hope the last bullet hits home…

          • Nice thing for you to say Suzy_S.

            The common eye sees only the outside of things, and judges by that, but the seeing eye pierces through and reads the heart and the soul.

            Hope is how we survive as a species.

        • Thanks to you also NIJ… From where I stand I can personally testify that my squirrels didn’t fall too far from the tree.

          • Lol, I was in the armored cavalry, we don’t know that bugle call. At 70 tons, 2 feet of frontal armor, and 120mm cannon, retreat was something we did on halloween. 🙂

          • The bird who holds the treasure may have to retweet, so make that a three-treat for Halloween, I’m in…!!

          • How clumsy of me, it just wouldn’t be a party without Forrest, think we could rope him in too? Lol
            Thank you Suzy for just being you! It made my day a little brighter :))
            Sorry Dal, will try to be more relevant. These are not the droids you are looking for…

          • You’re absolutely right! Without Forrest, the party would never get started! Do you think he’ll come if we invite him?

            Thank you too, NIJ, for bringing some laughter to my day also. Although the company of one-on-one person socializing can never be replaced, electronic communication seems to have its advantage in a time when separation is required.

            Wish you well…!!!

          • I am sure the legend would want to be there. Shame I cannot attend, I do a great reign dance, in double step.

            Mind you, I have been walking round in circles for the last couple of month trying to solve the puzzle, making one calve bigger than the other, so might be difficult!

            Glad I found Peace.


          • BigO, I wise man once said that all it takes is imagination to realize those things which are out of reach. Sometimes we grow into adults and forget the happiness found in a childhood dance. That being said, your 2 step reign dance will continually light a juniper blaze within my soul, and my ears will always hold a welcome mat to your words.

            As Forrest found a place of peace when closing his bracelet within the chest, I am at piece with your spiritual circle of peace. That infinite vision rains down stronger than ever.

            I am glad I found peace also.

  48. Zap or Dal – Need that great pic of that covered trailer the Fenn family put about 2 miles in from the West Entrance, and 1/2 mile off the Entrance Road. Working with another searcher to hunt that place down, on my next BOTG trip. It may be right across from where I think Forrest put in with his dinghy, at that Cable Car Run turnout.

    Thank you for your help!

  49. I went on my first outing to look for the treasure. I saw Elk, Bison, Deer, and some extraordinary scenery. It is so much better to see the terrain in-person as Google Earth can be deceptive. At least I know where the treasure ISN”T, so I can narrow my search down!!

    • Good to get out and enjoy nature JT.
      GE is the devil without the details.
      Process of elimination is for all that have tried.

  50. todays thought…. Fenn sat under a lot of trees to think, to write, and I noted recently in re-reading Journal of a Trapper, how Osborne ended his journal by describing his personal good-bye to his “nearly 9 years” in the Rockies, he … “Sat down under a pine and took a last view of a country over which I had traveled so often under such a variety of circumstances The recollections of the past connected with the scenery now spread out before me put me somewhat in a Poetical humor and for the first time I attempted to frame my thoughts into rhyme ….”

    Osborne’s “variety of circumstances” sounded to me a lot like Fenn’s “many roads not all paved with smiles.” And as I read more closely, other things he said began to sink in, including his poem, The Hunter’s Farewell. I thought of Forrest’s, last visit to Yellowstone. Was it a threshold moment good-bye? In Sept. he would be in the military.

    Osborne left for Oregon on Aug. 22 … a birth date coincidence that might have hung in young boy’s mind as a special connection to his hero. Fenn’s first 19 birthdays always were good-bye’s to the Rockies.

    In the Osborne’s letters to his sister at the end of the book there is a comment about contentment. A lat & long of Fort Hall (Osborne’s kick-off to Oregon) is given in NOTES but doesn’t seem to match the map sketch, per my Google earth eye. Maybe some interesting thoughts here for someone.

    • There is a certain harmony about Forrest and a tree having a meeting of the minds. D.H. Lawrence used to do that also, but that’s neither here nor there.

  51. Hi Guys,

    I was just wondering if Seattle Sullivan got in touch with any of the forums to say that he was safe and well ?


    • Just wondering too! Who ended up buying the book he won? Anyone know? Hope hes ok.

    • Kris/KPro posted a day or so ago on THOR that Seattle Sullivan did check-in and is okay.

  52. Hope everyone is having a good weekend! Smell the Sunshine just uploaded a new video only about a half and hour ago on his YouTube channel and I thought it was very good. This one focuses on the last few chapters of TTOTC.


    I don’t know if the maker of these videos ever visits this site, but again I have got to say that these videos are excellently made. Well done!

    • Ken Burns comes too mind when I listen too these. He has a wonderful talent. Snowing here in Yellowstone today, the coldest place in the country at the moment.

      • “Gutting Down”
        Forrest Mentioned he had a gut feeling? What do we take from that?

        • “Gutting down.” Putting your belly flat against the ground keeps your butt from sticking up where it can get shot off.

          In my case, I have a little too much pie in my belly and too much starch in my shorts for that, but I do the best I can.

          If we all just do what we have to do to stay safe, we’ll make it through somehow.

      • Dal – I noticed that he included a clip of you on his video about the permanence of the clues. I haven’t gotten through all of his videos yet, but am working my way through them. He really knows his stuff.

        He mentioned in the comments under one of his videos that he visits the main websites on the Chase, but is primarily a lurker. I hope he shows up more on this site from time to time; it’d be interesting to chat things over more with him.

    • I agree with you Blex. These are very well done and I enjoy watching them. I like the fact that he interjects a tad with his own personal thoughts, but that mainly he presents the facts in an entertaining way. Thanks for the heads up!

    • Blex—-

      Thanks for that link. You’re right— that is a very good video.

      • You bet, Sparrow. I just got done watching all of the videos that he has made on YouTube and they are all of similar good quality.

  53. Looking to purchase the, Where Warm Waters Halt piece made by Copper Elements. If anyone has one or knows of one let Dal know and he will see that we receive each others contact information. Steve

    • Copper Elements is Copper Dan’s company where he and his wife create beautiful copper sculpture pieces…
      “Where Warm Water Halts” was the title of his first piece inspired by the search for Forrest’s chest.
      We talked about it on the blog and had some photos…That was about a year and a half ago…
      Email me if you have one you are interested in parting with for Steve..

  54. Dal, your missing a category in the blog, “Questions for Forrest”

    I’ll start:

    Forrest if you had lost that pool game to Byron Harvey, what was it that Byron would of won from you?

      • @ Ken & Writis – That one (The Perfect Question) is closed as it was specific to a pending interview at the time.

  55. your up or your down your in or your out. Your meek, or your brave, your warm, or your cold, your blind or your bold. A path to get old Ty for your service Sir, and that’s for all people’s that have served our country as we remember them all. To all of you I owe my life respect. and Freedom in America be safe out there all.My Heart is with you all Salute.Ty

  56. Hi Guys ,

    I was glad to hear that Seattle Sullivan checked in and he is safe and well.

    Good luck to you all this search season.


    • We live in the Greatest Country on the planet. Driving across this land reminds me of the sacrifice others have made to keep us safe and free. God bless this nation. Driving through Yellowstone and seeing a Grizzly feeding on roots today was spectacular. America the beautiful, stay safe and strong out there everyone. Let’s remember the fallen!

  57. I’ve entered into other worldly levels of confirmation bias, I need some tea, got to dig out of this very deep hole.

    • confirmation bias is not a bad thing, and if people didn’t believe their own solutions, right or wrong, then for the past 10 years no one should have gone searching. So was the reason of the chase to only be correct or to get outside and give it a go?

      • My vote is to be correct. I say this while arriving at my hotel in WY to plan my 23rd attempt on Memorial Day.

        • Yes, correct is the desired outcome.
          But lets consider this, what will happen when it is done?
          Not only will searchers, but the airlines, hotels, car rentals, restaurants, and anything else Affected by the chase will not be happy. Dal, may be happy not having to keep his blog going, but Esmerelda might not like it. Think of all the pod casts, youtube channels, documentaries, blogs, coins, teeshirts,etc,etc, the people behind them will no longer be relevant and fade away.
          The chase has created its own environment. But hey no pressure, not everyday you get to destroy an ecosystem. Besides it’s probably time for people to get there old lives back, right?

        • There are so many treasure hunts out there that no one person can effectively pursue them all. Yes, Forrest’s is on the short list of high longevity, high notoriety and high payoff. And even after it’s solved and the treasure retrieved, it’s not hard to predict that many “Fenners” will continue to hammer away at it.

  58. Everytime I see that image of Dal (his email) that says “click on the image” – I notice the phantom face in the window nex to him.

    Makes me think of the Phantom of the Opera.
    Who is behind the mask?

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